WEBVTT - How to Solve the Facebook Problem

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<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, November one. I'm Oscar Ramirez from the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.

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<v Speaker 1>There's been a lot of scrutiny placed on social media

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<v Speaker 1>recently in light of the Facebook papers, and while social

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<v Speaker 1>media has opened the line of communication for many, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>we weren't meant to talk to each other so much.

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<v Speaker 1>The number of meaningful relationships a person can have is

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<v Speaker 1>far less than the number of people you can accumulate

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<v Speaker 1>in a social network, and that's where the problems can start.

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<v Speaker 1>Both genuine speech and misinformation gets smuddled together very quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>Ian Bogost, contributing writer at The Atlantic and director of

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<v Speaker 1>Film and Media Studies at Washington University, joins us for more.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us in. Thanks so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna talk about a very interesting article you wrote

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<v Speaker 1>at The Atlantic talking about social media. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we've been hearing a lot about social media recently. It's

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<v Speaker 1>such a big part of our lives. Really. The Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>papers is hitting the news right now, and kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the effects that they knew on people teens and all that.

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<v Speaker 1>There's just so much right and that's kind of the

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<v Speaker 1>big issue with social media is that there's too much

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<v Speaker 1>And so the article you were working on talks about

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<v Speaker 1>how people really aren't meant to talk to each other

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<v Speaker 1>this much. You know, we come from smaller social circles.

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<v Speaker 1>The more important people in your lives often are much

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<v Speaker 1>smaller in number, and through social media your message could

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<v Speaker 1>be amplified to many, many more people, and it really

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<v Speaker 1>becomes untenable in a way. So Ian, tell us a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about what you wrote and and why we

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<v Speaker 1>weren't meant to talk to each other so much. The

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<v Speaker 1>idea that we ought to and that we deserve an

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<v Speaker 1>audience with the whole world all the time, maybe multiple

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<v Speaker 1>times per day, and that anything we think or say

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<v Speaker 1>ought to reach as many people as possible. We gotta

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<v Speaker 1>get as many followers as we can. That's that's the

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<v Speaker 1>idea that I'm trying to call into question in this piece.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you look at the social science and even

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<v Speaker 1>the biology of kind of how humans work, there's some

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<v Speaker 1>debate about it, but it is clear that there are limits,

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<v Speaker 1>or at least that most people before the internet interacted

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<v Speaker 1>with a relatively small number of people, especially the most

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<v Speaker 1>interactions they have might have been you know, five or

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<v Speaker 1>ten or fifteen people, your family, your closest friends, and

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<v Speaker 1>your extended circle of colleagues and friends that you really

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<v Speaker 1>engage with on a regular basis typically might be you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a hundred hundred and twenty people, which is you know,

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<v Speaker 1>suggestive at least of the fact that we just were

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<v Speaker 1>never meant to have this many interactions with this many people,

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<v Speaker 1>this frequent, and it's so interesting. You know that number

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<v Speaker 1>of a hundred hundred and twenty. I think British psychologist

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<v Speaker 1>Robin Dunbar had that number at a hundred and fifty.

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<v Speaker 1>In my lifetime, I know I've met that many people,

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<v Speaker 1>But do I truly know that many people. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>hard No. Yeah, somebody that would trust and agree with

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<v Speaker 1>everything they say, that's a hard note. That's really tough.

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<v Speaker 1>And and our most intimate, you know, connected relationships we have.

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<v Speaker 1>This is obviously what psychologists would say, right maybe about

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<v Speaker 1>one about five to fifteen close friends. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>consequences of that is that online people just started trusting

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<v Speaker 1>more and more people that they might not have known

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<v Speaker 1>or maybe shouldn't have trusted. And that is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the things, not the only thing, that's one of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that's allowed misinformation to spread more broadly. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>just that the information out there is bad or that

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of it, but people are more receptive

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<v Speaker 1>to it. They're more willing to share it, and they're

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<v Speaker 1>more willing to invest a belief in it than they

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<v Speaker 1>might have been previously. Yeah, you made a note in

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<v Speaker 1>the article two which is pretty interesting, just kind of

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<v Speaker 1>going over how online communication has grown, right from the

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<v Speaker 1>Worldwide Web in the nineties to user generated content to

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<v Speaker 1>the social media that we have. And this was previously

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<v Speaker 1>kind of exclusive to big companies, corporations, somebody that had

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<v Speaker 1>the access to big, giant channels of communication, and now

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<v Speaker 1>this is given to everybody basically exactly, and everyone believes

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<v Speaker 1>that they deserve it too, and it's all free, which

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<v Speaker 1>is important as well. You know, it used to be

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<v Speaker 1>that if you wanted to connect with someone, you'd have

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<v Speaker 1>to you know, maybe print a newsletter or a flyer

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<v Speaker 1>and then mail it out to your community, or even

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<v Speaker 1>if you wanted to make a phone call, that used

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<v Speaker 1>to have a cost to it. Even a text message

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<v Speaker 1>us to do do. So everything has been reduced that the

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<v Speaker 1>friction has been reduced, the cost has been reduced, and

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<v Speaker 1>We've been given this potential audience of millions or billions

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<v Speaker 1>of people and told you ought to have the ability

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<v Speaker 1>to address it. That's what free speech means now. And

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<v Speaker 1>those were the intermediaries before the costs, the barriers, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if you're going to publish a book, you

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<v Speaker 1>know that you're publishers all that. Now the new intermediaries

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<v Speaker 1>are the social media companies Google, Facebook, Twitter. Talk about

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<v Speaker 1>that a little bit. There's this myth I think in

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<v Speaker 1>the technology industry that's sometimes called disintermediation, that what the

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<v Speaker 1>Internet does is it removes all of those barriers. You

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<v Speaker 1>no longer have to get a publisher to approve what

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<v Speaker 1>you want to say. You can just post it on

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook or make your own website or blog or whatever

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<v Speaker 1>it might be. But if you think about it for

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<v Speaker 1>even just a minute, you realize it's not that the

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<v Speaker 1>intermediaries such as publishers and broadcasters have been removed. It's

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<v Speaker 1>rather that they've been replaced by the big technology companies.

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<v Speaker 1>And now you've got to get your stuff into the

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<v Speaker 1>hands or eyes of other people through a service like

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook or Twitter, or you've got to make it rise

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<v Speaker 1>to the top of a Google search. In order that

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<v Speaker 1>people can see it in the first place. And those companies,

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<v Speaker 1>those kinds of companies make their money through engagement, by

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<v Speaker 1>by monetizing data and attention, and for that reason, it's

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<v Speaker 1>in their interest to have you interact with other people

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<v Speaker 1>and other ideas and other units of content as frequently

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<v Speaker 1>as possible. Talk to me a little bit about mega scale,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, you were talking about those incentives, right

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<v Speaker 1>these and metrics to encourage the engagement, the likes and

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<v Speaker 1>share accounts and all that, the number of your followers,

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<v Speaker 1>all that, But talk to me about mega scale and

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<v Speaker 1>how that just becomes this unwieldy thing. Mega scale is

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<v Speaker 1>the term that my Atlantic colleague Adrian the France coined

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<v Speaker 1>to name this assumption that big technology companies have that

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<v Speaker 1>they have to grow as large as possible, as fast

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<v Speaker 1>as possible, and they have not just a big user base,

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<v Speaker 1>but a kind of unprecedented one. If you think about

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that they Pacebook has billions of users, a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of billion users. Previously in human history, that is

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<v Speaker 1>just unprecedented that a company, or that anyone or even

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<v Speaker 1>a government would have direct access to control the information

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<v Speaker 1>that that many people see and to influence their behavior. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that happened around megascale that idea

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<v Speaker 1>of the largest possible business is it became a tacit

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<v Speaker 1>precept of the technology industry, so that if you want

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<v Speaker 1>to go and get funding or start a company, you

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<v Speaker 1>must grow as big as possible and as fast as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>And that value made its way into the hands and

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<v Speaker 1>hearts of ordinary people too. So everybody from a politician

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<v Speaker 1>to you know, your your neighbor or the the influencer

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<v Speaker 1>down the block. They believe that their celebrities, right, and

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<v Speaker 1>not just celebrities, but they have the potential to reach

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<v Speaker 1>anyone on the earth immediately and all the time. So

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<v Speaker 1>Megascale is first a kind of business model for the

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<v Speaker 1>modern technology business, and then an ethos, a way of

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about and interacting with the world that kind of

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<v Speaker 1>comes on the heels of that business model. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>where you know, a lot of this really gets problematic

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<v Speaker 1>right there. You know, the good messages, the bad messages,

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<v Speaker 1>it all kind of just gets muddled together as just

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<v Speaker 1>one big number. And it doesn't matter if it's good

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<v Speaker 1>or bad or excuse one way or the other. Just

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<v Speaker 1>the amount of it is kind of what everybody's looking for.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do we do then to help with this?

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<v Speaker 1>And I know, you know, to be clear, you're not saying,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, communication is bad all that, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>you've made your point to that. It's just you know,

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<v Speaker 1>so much of it, right, So what do we do?

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<v Speaker 1>Do we how do we limit social media? A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people have talked about regulatory intervention, but even some

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<v Speaker 1>of those things are just really difficult to implement and

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<v Speaker 1>to enforce. They are difficult. And you know, as these

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook paper stories start to come out and we see

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<v Speaker 1>more and more calls to regulate or to legislate Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>and other social media companies, one of the things that

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes comes up, and if you just break up these

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<v Speaker 1>companies into small and it's too big, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's a monopoly, is you break them up into smaller companies.

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<v Speaker 1>But that doesn't really help when you when you give

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<v Speaker 1>it a real thought, because those smaller companies would still

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<v Speaker 1>have the same structure, the same sort of mega scale

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<v Speaker 1>at their hearts, serving billions of people and letting them

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<v Speaker 1>talk to one another constantly. So one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that I started to think about is, well, what are

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<v Speaker 1>the other ways that you can introduce limitations or constraints

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<v Speaker 1>on behavior. It's not just whether a company like Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>ought to have a billion users or whatever, but what

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<v Speaker 1>each of those individuals are allowed to do or constrained

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<v Speaker 1>to do, and how maybe we might scale it down

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<v Speaker 1>or down scale it into a more kind of human

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<v Speaker 1>sized experience. A way of trying to get back to

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<v Speaker 1>that time when you know, you you talk to a

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<v Speaker 1>smaller number of people less frequently, you made the most

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<v Speaker 1>of the opportunities you had for communication, and because it

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<v Speaker 1>had friction and cost to it, both financial cost and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of opportunity cost, it was more considered, if you will.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you know, if you think about this, we're

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<v Speaker 1>constantly constraining ourselves on at all the time. Like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Twitter says you can only post this many characters. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the way that that an image is supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to look on Instagram, or it's it's square in shape

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<v Speaker 1>at least it used to be, or the way at

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<v Speaker 1>a Snapchat post can time out and disappear. Those are

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<v Speaker 1>examples of arbitrary artificial constraint that we accept because we

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<v Speaker 1>understand it and we're willing to embrace it. And so

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<v Speaker 1>while it's a long road from point A to point B.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that refocusing our attention to technology services so

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<v Speaker 1>that they embrace and design some of that artificial constraint

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<v Speaker 1>and make it more natural. That's that's one way of

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about how we might solve some of these problems,

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<v Speaker 1>in addition to some of the regulatory conversations that are

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<v Speaker 1>that are on the horizon. One of the examples you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned too that not many people might want to go

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<v Speaker 1>for is what if you can only post a Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>once a day, a week, or a month even you

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<v Speaker 1>know what I mean, just to limit all of that.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, one of the examples that you listed to

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<v Speaker 1>in all of this is Google Plus maybe a better

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<v Speaker 1>way to kind of organize the social structures. And I

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<v Speaker 1>personally never liked Google Plus, but maybe this is all

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<v Speaker 1>to your point, right. You know, it didn't work. It

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<v Speaker 1>didn't work that way because you couldn't get the mass

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<v Speaker 1>the main followers. But organizing things in those circles circles

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<v Speaker 1>of importance, right, your family, your coworkers and then all

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<v Speaker 1>the other people that you might have come in contact with,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, could have been maybe a better model, like

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<v Speaker 1>you said, but you know what happens with what we

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<v Speaker 1>have already. People don't want to lose their megaphones. People

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to lose what we already have, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>another hurdle to all of this. It's very, very hard

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<v Speaker 1>to go back. And you know, you could look back

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<v Speaker 1>on the design of these services, whether it's Facebook or

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<v Speaker 1>Google Plus, and say, oh, if we'd known then what

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<v Speaker 1>we knew now, maybe we would have acted differently, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>we would have introduced some guardrails, and that made or

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<v Speaker 1>might not be the case. But knowing that we can't

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<v Speaker 1>literally go back in time, we can still clean up

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<v Speaker 1>the way that these systems work. And there may be

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<v Speaker 1>some combination of factors, some of them regulatory or legislative,

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<v Speaker 1>if we can manage to make that happen, and some

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<v Speaker 1>of them, you know, driven by the marketplace, by people's

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<v Speaker 1>desires and their willingness to change their behavior. And people

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<v Speaker 1>don't necessarily know what they're willing to do either. But

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<v Speaker 1>where we acclimate to these new services relatively easily. You know,

0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.280
<v Speaker 1>back when Vine, the short video service that the Twitter

0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.920
<v Speaker 1>owned and shut down after a little while, back when

0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.600
<v Speaker 1>that existed, it was six second video clips, right, And

0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:22.320
<v Speaker 1>if I told you, you know, and even in the

0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.360
<v Speaker 1>era of ten minute YouTube videos, you're gonna love six

0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.400
<v Speaker 1>second videos. It would have been like that doesn't make

0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.000
<v Speaker 1>any sense at all, But they were delightful. So some

0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.760
<v Speaker 1>of this has to do with what exists in you know,

0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.600
<v Speaker 1>the competitive nature of the marketplace is supposed to give

0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:37.840
<v Speaker 1>us more options, not just in the sense of more

0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.240
<v Speaker 1>places to get the same idea or the same experience,

0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.599
<v Speaker 1>but different experiences. And while Google Plus may not have

0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.480
<v Speaker 1>been a fantastic and it certainly wasn't a successful social network,

0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.360
<v Speaker 1>it did offer a different way of organizing our relationships

0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.480
<v Speaker 1>that was more in line with the idea that they're

0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.120
<v Speaker 1>naturally limited to some extent, that the way that we

0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:57.920
<v Speaker 1>talked to our family is different than the way that

0:11:57.920 --> 0:11:59.880
<v Speaker 1>we talk to our colleagues, and that there's a finite

0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.200
<v Speaker 1>bar of each Yeah. I mean, it's just an interesting notion.

0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.920
<v Speaker 1>And we've seen social media get so what in wieldy now,

0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:07.839
<v Speaker 1>and we're trying to go back and put the genie

0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.680
<v Speaker 1>in the bottle and it's so hard to do. I

0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.560
<v Speaker 1>suggest everybody go and read Ian's article on this. There's

0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.080
<v Speaker 1>so much stuff in there, very well thought out. Ian Bogos,

0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.600
<v Speaker 1>contributing writer at the Atlantic and Director of Film and

0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.599
<v Speaker 1>Media Studies at Washington University in St. Louis. Thank you

0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:26.840
<v Speaker 1>very much for joining us. Thank you. I'm Oscar Ramirez

0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.760
<v Speaker 1>and this has been reopening America. Don't forget that. For

0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:31.520
<v Speaker 1>today's big news stories, you can check me out on

0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.720
<v Speaker 1>the Daily Dive podcast every Monday Friday. So follow us

0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.160
<v Speaker 1>on I Heart Radio or wherever you get your podcast