WEBVTT - Indian Point Nuclear Plant is Permanently Closed 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.200 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:11.320 Thing from My Heart Radio. On Friday, April twenty one, 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:16.720 the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant permanently closed down. For 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.759 those who've been fighting for this for decades, it's a 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:23.560 moment to pause and breathe a sigh of relief. While 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:28.320 supporters of nuclear power promise affordable, clean energy that's too 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.120 cheap to meet her time and again, leaks, accidents, and 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:36.479 the general decay of decades old nuclear power plants create 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:40.440 risks that should keep everyone up at night. My guests 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.800 today are activists I'm proud to call cocombatants in the 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:49.120 fight to close Indian Point. Paul Gallet and Richard Webster 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.680 work at River Keeper, a nonprofit dedicated to the health 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.240 of New York's waterways. Indian Point is on the Hudson River, 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.200 less than forty miles north of New York City. Joseph 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.200 Mangano is the executive director of the Radiation and Public 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.759 Health Project research group. My conversation started with Joe. He's 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.800 written dozens of studies and three books on radiations effect 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.280 on the body. In the late eighties, many nuclear reactors 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.120 existed around the United States. In the world, over a 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:26.640 hundred were here and there were basically no studies being 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:30.640 done on basic issues like what are cancer rates in 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.560 nuclear power plants? Right? We know it's generating as toxic chemicals. 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.720 We know some is getting into the environment, into people's bodies, 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:40.000 but there were no studies done. There was a need 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.280 to be filled here. That's what we've done. And then 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.840 when you say no studies done, you meant no modern 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.480 studies because the baby to study was in the sixties. Correct, Yes, 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.880 such a spectacular study. In the late nineteen fifties, atomic 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.800 bombs were being exploded above the ground in the United 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.880 States and Soviet Union, uh the total of over four 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.840 undred of them, and fallout was was circling around the 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.880 globe and getting into the precipitation and thus into the 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.480 food chain. People were concerned and two groups of one 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.720 of citizens and one of scientists at Washington University in St. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.120 Louis said, we need to find out how much of 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.880 this fall it is getting into people's bodies. They are 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.760 tougher ways to do it, like autopsies and biopsys, but 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.280 this was a very ingenious way to do it. You 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:26.760 wait until the child sheds a baby tooth, the tooth 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.840 is donated and the tooth is tested for this chemical 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.680 strontium ninety, which is one of a hundred plus chemicals 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.680 not found in nature, but only when an atomic bomb 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.800 explodes or a nuclear reactor. If I'm not mistaken, it 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.200 appears in the first set of teeth of children. They 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.320 were looking for atrium levels in the teeth of these children. 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.160 That was the daughter element of strontium ninety that was 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.560 in the bombs, so high levels of atrium in their teeth. 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:58.000 Mothers were asked to donate their children's first set of teeth, 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.400 their baby teeth, and they would study these teeth because 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.000 it mimicked calcium, correct in the teeth, that's right. The 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.520 body thinks it's calcium, and when it's taken in as 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.320 food or water, it goes quickly to the stomach and 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.600 quickly to the bloodstream, quickly to the bone and the teeth. 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.120 And as the testing went on, the amounts of strom 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:21.839 ninety and the teeth got higher and hired. Kids born 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.040 in nineteen sixty three had fifty times the amount of 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.960 kids born in ninety as the test started, not fifty 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:34.760 five thousand more. And this study was published in medical 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.080 journal articles. The first article has been sent to President 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.320 John F. Kennedy where his science advisor and he discussed it, 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.120 and the U. S. Senate discussed the test band Treaty. 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:49.040 One of the Washington University faculty, Eric Reece, testified and 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.320 he used it to study results as evidence why we 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.240 need to ban these tests. And in fact Kennedy did 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.240 sign the test band Treaty just a month before he 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.240 was killed. You and I our work really takes off 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.960 together when we go down to Toms River, New Jersey, 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.520 and the facility is called the Oyster Creek Nuclear Facility. 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.480 Describe how you first came across the idea that there 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.160 was a problem there. Really, the first knowledge I had 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:18.960 of there was some trouble around Oyster Creek was a 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:24.000 cluster of childhood cancers. It starts with the grassroots. Parents 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.960 of people who essentially sitting in waiting rooms found out 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.440 about each other and their neighbors and so, and kind 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.640 of forced the state Health department to do a report, 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.839 and all of a sudden they found cancer among children 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:42.320 living in the Toms River area was quite high, and 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.560 the Toms River area was sort of a toxic triangle. 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.480 If you will there was a plant run by Union Carbide, 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.080 what one by Seba Guide and then of course the 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:58.080 nuclear reactor Oyster Creek, and each emitted different types of 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.919 pollutants into the environment and into people's bodies. And we 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.600 know that children, of course, they're most susceptible to to toxins. 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:10.600 And the issue became not so much wait for the government, 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.680 wait for leaders to do something about it, but to 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.400 really do a grassroots effort to force change. And I 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:20.479 think that was the same thing with the earlier sat 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.440 It was baby to study, you know it was. It 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:26.680 was a bottoms up movement and our efforts were twofold. 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.600 We did a number of studies, same with Indian point. 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:34.039 The recipe is the same of cancer rates around this area, 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:39.240 especially after the nuclear plant opened. And then we came 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.880 in with our own version of the baby tooth study. 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.640 Did Dr Gul said, hey, that that St. Louis study 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.760 years ago. It was incredible. Three teeth and it helped 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.640 past test ban treaty. Let's do one of our own, 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.800 and in places like Oyster Creek, you and I and 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.919 others went down and appeal for donations of teeth. We 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.240 had them tested in lads and we appeal for the 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.040 money to do the testing. Yes, yeah we did. We 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.560 did get support from this to state government. Now this 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.760 is when Jim McGreevey was governor. To do the test. 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:13.920 We found basically that number one, the levels nearest to 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.880 the plant were a lot higher than people living far 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.280 from the plant. Number two, as time went on, the 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.960 levels are getting higher and higher as the reactor got 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.640 older and leaked more. And number three we found a 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.560 link with childhood cancer. Just picture a graph with two lines. 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.360 One is the trend in Stradia ninety and one is 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.440 the trend in childhood cancer and the local area they 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.919 look the same. And we found this near Indian Point 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.120 and near Brookhaven and Long Island as well, and we 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.920 published them in medical journals. That which separates us from 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.280 other activist groups for nuclear I I am the author 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.159 call author of thirty eight medical journal articles on these 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.600 topics in order to give this similar perspective. And then 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.040 is we go down to an area where what we're 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:57.680 basically saying is don't extend the license of this operation. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:02.440 The licenses expired, the licenses have to be renewed. These 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.560 things have to be inspected. That's machinery. It wears out. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.960 There's leakage, there's this, there's that, there's problems. All of 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.600 these nuclear reactors have to varying degrees. Not all of 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.840 them are life threatening catastrophes in the making, but but 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:17.760 many of them have some serious problems. But when we 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:19.320 went down to Oyster Cree, because I want to get 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.000 to Indian Point in a minute. But when we went 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.880 down to New Jersey, here's a couple of highlights that 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.760 I recall. One was Linda Gillick. Linda Gillick was a 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:32.000 woman who became an activist over autism clusters, another soft 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:36.920 tissue ailment, their prostrate breast brain autism clusters in the 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.160 Toms River area, that coastal area of New Jersey down 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:42.840 there mimics Long Island with a very narrow lens of 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.840 soil Union card. But I believe was putting toxins into 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.960 the ground and poorous sandy soil going right into the 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:54.000 water table. Green piece was actually gonna target see bagagis 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:55.840 pipe that they had out into the ocean. They were 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:59.440 dumping resin or something. And Lynda Gillick turns around and 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:03.120 she says to her congressman, I would like some discretionary 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.040 funds to do some research into the groundwater and find 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.160 out what's in there and what's causing these cancer clusters 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.800 here and these other soft tissue clusters like autism. The 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.000 moment that the Congressman is going to give her five 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.560 million bucks to do this research see Bagogy and Union 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.600 Carbide settled the case. And then when all the records sealed, 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.760 didn't want anybody to know what's in the ground there, 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:25.560 what they were pumping out into the ocean. They settled 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.480 the whole thing. So of the three villains in my 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.840 mind who were responsible for the toxicity in that Tom's 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:35.560 River area see Bagogy, Union Carbide. Some people even suspect 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:40.000 that these places are cited where there is cross contamination, 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.880 so you can't prosecute them. Some people would argue that 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.480 not only are nuclear facilities cited where there's low income 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:50.160 labor who crave these jobs, because some of these guys 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:54.040 are making thirty an hour in a union where our 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.680 technicians who were responsible for operating these these facilities. Like 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.840 what happened to us when we went to Ocean County 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.079 and we're at Ocean County College and we packed the place, 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.600 we pack it. I mean they're sitting in the aisles, 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:07.599 and the one guy looks to me. He's out of Steinbeck. 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.160 He's a young dad with his wife and two kids, 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.160 and he says, you're not here to close the plant, 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.880 are you? And I said, no, we're not here to 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.000 close the plant. We're here to present you with all 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:18.960 the information and the facts, and you decide if you 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.839 want the plant closed. But then we go to those 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.520 two guys, the father and son, who were the state 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:28.960 senator and his son was an alderman or whatever they 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.320 call them down there in New Jersey, and we asked 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:35.000 him for discretionary money to use for the baby Tooth study, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.440 and they agree to give us the money. And then 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.760 Governor Christine Todd Whitman line item vetos those requests that 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:44.920 we get the money to do the baby tooth study, 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.040 that there was ever a shill for the nuclear industry. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.680 God it was her. Talk to me now about the 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.320 work you've done specifically related to Indian Point. Indian Point was, 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:58.840 in addition to Oys to Creak, another one of our 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:03.000 major prior ease because of its proximity to New York City, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:06.120 I mean, the most densely populated area of the country, 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.800 meant the greatest health risks, so we focus a lot 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:12.120 of our work on those two plants. Indian Point is 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.800 located thirty five miles north of Times Square. It's on 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.120 the Hudson River, which is quite close. Even though years 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.240 ago there were numerous proposals to build nuclear reactors, not 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.600 just around New York City, but in New York City. 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.559 Let's build one below Central Park, below Roosevelt Island, right 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.480 across the East River from the u. N. Let's build 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.559 an island just off Coney Island, build reactors. These all 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.400 made the New York Times. These were actual ideas. None 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.760 of them came through, but the closest one was Indian Point, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:47.439 which opened in nineteen three reactors. One was a small 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.040 one that closed in nineteen seventy four, but there were 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.439 two much larger ones built in the mid nineteen seventies, 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.199 and those are the ones we we focused on. The 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.160 way we approached any point was sort of two ways. 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:01.920 The burden of proof was on us to show that 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:07.240 there was not just radiation being released and entering the body, 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.520 but to show that there was harm. The releases were easy, 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:15.360 taking um data that the industry is required to report 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:17.720 every year, and the Indpoint was one of the highest 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.280 amounts of radiation in the seventies and nineties into the air. 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.440 Number two was the baby Tooth study. We appealed to 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.920 people to donate teeth and we collected five teeth near 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.880 Indian Point. We found the strontium ninety levels higher than 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.960 elsewhere in New York State. And again the similar patterns 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:44.640 with child cancer. And then finally, the litany of cancer 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:51.280 statistics dress cancers higher, child cancer is higher. The biggest 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.480 one is thyroid cancer, which is not one of the 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.640 high profile cancer. It's usually treatable, although it's a horrible 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.440 experience ba CANNA. In the nineteen seventies, when these two 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.440 big reactors are opening, the rate in the four county 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.520 area within twenty miles of New Point was two below 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.600 the US and by the year two thousand, fifty five 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.120 percent higher. And that's where where it is today. I mean, 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.839 instead of fifty cases a year in the fourth it's 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:22.120 like over four cases. In emergency circumstances like a possible 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.960 meltdown or a leak or whatever, where there's contamination and 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.080 the public is exposed on a larger scale, don't they 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.960 issue like iodine or something for people to consume to 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:37.040 to prevent thyroid cancer. The thyroid is very vulnerable to radiation. Yes, yes, 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.160 iodine goes directly to the thyroid glands all right where 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.400 it kills and in your cells. And yes, one of 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.480 the ways that are used to reduce the effects of 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.319 a meltdown would be to take this what they call 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.400 potassium iodide, which sort of coats the thyroid gland and 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:58.800 protects it from iodone. All along, they've never copped to 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.679 the fact that there was a be radiation emitted from 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.000 these facilities on a daily basis. Am I correct, they have, 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:10.360 but their slogan is too low to be harmful. Officials 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:15.520 new they couldn't operated without allowing at least some of 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:19.760 this highly toxic radio activity to be released into the environment. 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:24.440 So they said what they called permissible limits and took 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.960 the big giant step of saying that permissible limits means 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:31.240 they are safe, they don't harm people. It's like a 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.360 doctor's telling a patient, well, you spoke five cigarettes today, 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.000 so let's below the permisible limits and there's no health 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.200 rents are your You know your wife smokes, but you don't, 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.439 so you're okay. No, all radiation is harmful at all 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.720 levels and you know, a lot of the discussion about 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.120 a place like Indian Point was about potential harm from 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:54.200 a meltdown or if radioactive waste were at least somehow. 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.520 We dealt with actual cases of cancer, We dealt with 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.960 actual deaths from the actual releases that you actually went 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.120 into people's bodies, into their baby teeth. And we also 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.400 feel that it probably resulted in the greatest hostility from 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.720 the nuclear industry being pointed at us. We had evidence, 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.800 and they didn't like it one bit. Well, they wanted 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.760 an industry that evolved from a process of bomb making 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.520 to end the war, and they're saying in the wake 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:28.480 of the war, they're saying, hey man, these guys are 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.320 our partners and making armaments to defend our country, so 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:32.720 let's give them a little bit of a break. They 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.800 would like to take these reactors and put them in 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.080 hundreds of sites around the country, and these things are 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.200 gonna boil water and you're gonna have steam turbines. It's 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:42.920 going to be, you know the famous quote, too cheap 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.200 to meter. And let's throw these guys a bone. Let's 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.760 let him make a little money on the side. And 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.640 you know, you realize that's always been the fight, which 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.920 this is about money. These companies, whether it's geor who 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.600 would you say the dominant power corporate wise in nuclear 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.840 technology far the too biggest funds where g E and Westinghouse. 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:04.280 G E and Westinghouse made almost of the reactors, and 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:06.480 they're like, hey, man, you know we're making money here. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.360 Get out of the way. We're not hurting anybody, and 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:12.160 so they claimed. So tell people what happened recently at 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.080 Indian Point. Indian Point, but the two reactors reached their 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:21.640 forty year license and applied for an extension from the 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:26.560 federal government of twenty additional years. And you know, reactors 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.680 weren't supposed to last more than forty years, but with 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.280 no reactors being built, they hatched this idea to keep 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.840 it going. A number of the citizen groups against Indian 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.960 Point took on the license extension, and they took it 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:46.000 to court and legal actions, and finally a deal was 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.680 worked out where the reactors continued to run until last 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.880 year and this year, but no more closed forever, which 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.040 leaves the hundred mile radius around New York City with 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.760 zero operating nuclear reactors where at one time there was 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:07.280 supposed to be many. Joe Man Gano is the executive 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.920 director of the Radiation and Public Health Project. The dangers 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:16.080 of nuclear power are sometimes only apparent in the aftermath 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:20.480 of disasters three Mile Island in Pennsylvania, Chair NOBIL in 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:25.280 the Ukraine, and Fukushima in Japan. For more in depth 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.720 conversation on the challenges of nuclear power, listened to my 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:33.120 conversation with Gregory Yasco. He became Chair of the Nuclear 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:38.440 Regulatory Commission just before the Fukushima disaster. While in office, 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.440 he tried to tackle the persistent question of where to 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.640 store radioactive waste in a lot of ways. The best 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.960 alternative is probably to leave it where it is, you 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.440 know it really, I mean there are some places where 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.400 you don't want to keep it, you know, the probably 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.760 Indian Point, which is close to New York City. Um 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:55.560 so some of the fuel you want to move, you 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.840 want to get it into maybe another location, you think, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.560 for for from an engineer ring standpoint, from a physics standpoint, 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.040 it's better to leave it there. Yeah, I think it 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.600 is right now. I mean, were certain transporting it is dangerous. 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.760 Transporting it adds a risk, and we just we don't 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.520 have any place to put it here. More of my 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.680 conversation with Gregory Jasco at Here's the Thing dot Org. 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:21.200 After the break, Richard Webster, Riverkeepers legal director, joins Joe 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:25.040 Mangano to explain the logistics involved in the fight to 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:40.919 close Indian Points. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.560 Here's the Thing. When they say the Earth needs a 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.800 good lawyer, Richard Webster is who they have in mind. 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.399 Richard works at Riverkeeper and before becoming an attorney, he 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.640 was a hydrologist and an environmental scientist. But in order 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.160 to close Indian Point you had to know what we're 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.120 up against, and she was the owner at the end. 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.119 Niper built in the point. Niper New York Power Authority, 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.760 so it's a public company, and actually Connor built in 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.440 your point too. Basically, just to go all the way 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.200 back to the start. Nuclear plants to build them is 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:20.520 incredibly risky. They have a tradition of being away over 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.480 budget and way behind schedule. So the only people that 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.359 can really afford to build nuclear plants are either public 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:32.159 corporations or public utilities. But then the problem came that 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.439 they weren't operating them very efficiently in the sense that 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.280 the run times were not very high, so there has 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:41.520 a sense that if you're into a private company, they 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.639 will increase the run times, which they did. By run times, 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.720 you mean how long their online and active and producing 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.200 power exactly, so that the availability went up from about 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:54.480 I think seal which you can make the difference between 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.359 the reactor making money or the reactor losing money. What 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.120 experience shows is that it's hard to keep a reactor 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.040 maintained in the first place, and it's doubly hard if 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.400 you don't want to come offline when you detect problems. So, 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.199 for example, an Indian point, they had a problem with 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:16.080 the reactor lid and how well it fitted, and repeatedly 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.199 what they found was that there was leakage around the 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.280 top of the reactor lid. Every outage they found this leakage, 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.199 but they didn't stop the reactor in the middle to 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.920 investigate this leakage because they wanted the production. And that's 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:32.160 what you see repeatedly. Davis Bessie was the most egregious 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:36.439 example of this, where cooling water actually eight all the 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.280 way through the reactor head, which was about six inches 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:43.600 of steel. The only thing left holding the pressurized water 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.600 in the reactor together was half in layer of stainless steel. 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:52.600 They refused to take that offline four weeks and got 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.080 very close actually to a meltdown there. So that's one 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.879 problem in the nuclear industry is there's a lot of 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.959 pressure for production and that tends to lead to undermining 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.760 of maintenance and safety. Another example I'll give you is 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.240 the battle bolts at Indian Point. When they finally measured 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.040 the battle bolts, they found that over half of them 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.520 were defective, but they didn't then take a new point 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.040 three offline and measure that one. They let that run 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.439 for another year. And then when they measured the battle 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.080 bolts there, which is baffle bolts, by the way, the 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.159 things that kind of hold the inside of the reactor together, 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.840 they found that over seventy percent of those are defective. 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.240 So people who say, oh, you know, nuclear plants that 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.920 they're pretty safe are too complacent. We haven't seen any 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:37.520 major nuclear disaster apart from t m I here yet, 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.840 But just because we got lucky so far doesn't mean 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.080 to say we shouldn't get smart. What happened to t 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.440 m t M I was operator arm That could obviously 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:50.879 happen again, but the chance of operator probably goes down 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.159 or stays the same more or less over time. The 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:55.560 thing that concerns me is that as the reactors get older, 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.080 the margin between what's exceptional and what's unacceptable get smaller 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.359 and smaller as you have corrosion fatigue and all these phenomena. 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:04.159 And I don't think the industry is doing a very 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.480 good job at managing these phenomena. They're just basically hoping 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:09.600 and chancing it. You know, we saw that at Oyster 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:13.879 Creek where the secondary pressure vessel had been corroding and 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:16.320 points was half as thick as it started off. It 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:17.800 started off about an inch and a half thick and 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.399 at points it was point seven inches thick. But the 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.359 industry was saying excellent. There was saying, oh no, it's okay, 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.919 it's stopped corroding. We promise, and therefore we don't need 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:28.920 to do any more measurements for twenty years. I mean, 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.960 that's just wishful thinking. And explained to people how we 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.840 have the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, which of course was the 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:41.240 precursor was the Atomic Energy Commission, and the NRC is 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.439 there presumably to protect the interests of the American people. 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:46.800 How would you evaluate how good of a job they're 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.080 doing in that Department. Well, I've been to a lot 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.040 of meetings with NRC personnel, and you know, they're generally 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.280 nice people, and I think they're generally competent engineers. But 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:57.760 I think there's a fundamental problem with the agency. And 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.200 I think my best anecdote this was all the time 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:03.800 as own meeting in New Jersey and a guy stood 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:05.680 up from the back and said, you guys at the NLC, 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.760 you're taking taxpayers money and you should be protecting the taxpayers. 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:11.280 The n l C. You guys stood up and said, 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.240 actually funded by industry, so don't worry about it. That 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:19.320 was illustrative to me. That is that accurate? Yes? Yes, Now, 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.720 what was the a e C completely funded by the government. 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.120 Did they replace the a C with the n RC 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.760 to put the industry in charge of its own regulation? Joe, 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:33.520 do you have an answer? Yeah, I think the a 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:37.240 C was government funded, but definitely the NRC is ninety 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:41.639 funded by industry fees. Energy is supposed to be a 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.520 regulator and not to promote nuclear power, which is what 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:47.679 the a e C was doing to help sell this 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:50.600 project to the American people, right, they kept promoting it. 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:53.199 That was right. To go back another step, it all 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:55.200 comes out of Atoms for Peace, right. The original idea 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:57.000 was to show we hadn't spend all this money just 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.199