1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. On Friday, April twenty one, 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant permanently closed down. For 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: those who've been fighting for this for decades, it's a 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: moment to pause and breathe a sigh of relief. While 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: supporters of nuclear power promise affordable, clean energy that's too 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: cheap to meet her time and again, leaks, accidents, and 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: the general decay of decades old nuclear power plants create 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: risks that should keep everyone up at night. My guests 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: today are activists I'm proud to call cocombatants in the 11 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: fight to close Indian Point. Paul Gallet and Richard Webster 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: work at River Keeper, a nonprofit dedicated to the health 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: of New York's waterways. Indian Point is on the Hudson River, 14 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: less than forty miles north of New York City. Joseph 15 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: Mangano is the executive director of the Radiation and Public 16 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: Health Project research group. My conversation started with Joe. He's 17 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: written dozens of studies and three books on radiations effect 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: on the body. In the late eighties, many nuclear reactors 19 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: existed around the United States. In the world, over a 20 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: hundred were here and there were basically no studies being 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: done on basic issues like what are cancer rates in 22 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: nuclear power plants? Right? We know it's generating as toxic chemicals. 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: We know some is getting into the environment, into people's bodies, 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: but there were no studies done. There was a need 25 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: to be filled here. That's what we've done. And then 26 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: when you say no studies done, you meant no modern 27 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: studies because the baby to study was in the sixties. Correct, Yes, 28 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: such a spectacular study. In the late nineteen fifties, atomic 29 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: bombs were being exploded above the ground in the United 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: States and Soviet Union, uh the total of over four 31 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: undred of them, and fallout was was circling around the 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: globe and getting into the precipitation and thus into the 33 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: food chain. People were concerned and two groups of one 34 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: of citizens and one of scientists at Washington University in St. 35 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: Louis said, we need to find out how much of 36 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: this fall it is getting into people's bodies. They are 37 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: tougher ways to do it, like autopsies and biopsys, but 38 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: this was a very ingenious way to do it. You 39 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: wait until the child sheds a baby tooth, the tooth 40 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: is donated and the tooth is tested for this chemical 41 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: strontium ninety, which is one of a hundred plus chemicals 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: not found in nature, but only when an atomic bomb 43 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: explodes or a nuclear reactor. If I'm not mistaken, it 44 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: appears in the first set of teeth of children. They 45 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: were looking for atrium levels in the teeth of these children. 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: That was the daughter element of strontium ninety that was 47 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: in the bombs, so high levels of atrium in their teeth. 48 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: Mothers were asked to donate their children's first set of teeth, 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: their baby teeth, and they would study these teeth because 50 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: it mimicked calcium, correct in the teeth, that's right. The 51 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: body thinks it's calcium, and when it's taken in as 52 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: food or water, it goes quickly to the stomach and 53 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: quickly to the bloodstream, quickly to the bone and the teeth. 54 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: And as the testing went on, the amounts of strom 55 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 1: ninety and the teeth got higher and hired. Kids born 56 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three had fifty times the amount of 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: kids born in ninety as the test started, not fifty 58 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: five thousand more. And this study was published in medical 59 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: journal articles. The first article has been sent to President 60 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy where his science advisor and he discussed it, 61 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: and the U. S. Senate discussed the test band Treaty. 62 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: One of the Washington University faculty, Eric Reece, testified and 63 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: he used it to study results as evidence why we 64 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: need to ban these tests. And in fact Kennedy did 65 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: sign the test band Treaty just a month before he 66 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: was killed. You and I our work really takes off 67 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: together when we go down to Toms River, New Jersey, 68 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: and the facility is called the Oyster Creek Nuclear Facility. 69 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: Describe how you first came across the idea that there 70 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: was a problem there. Really, the first knowledge I had 71 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: of there was some trouble around Oyster Creek was a 72 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: cluster of childhood cancers. It starts with the grassroots. Parents 73 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: of people who essentially sitting in waiting rooms found out 74 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: about each other and their neighbors and so, and kind 75 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: of forced the state Health department to do a report, 76 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they found cancer among children 77 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: living in the Toms River area was quite high, and 78 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: the Toms River area was sort of a toxic triangle. 79 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: If you will there was a plant run by Union Carbide, 80 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: what one by Seba Guide and then of course the 81 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: nuclear reactor Oyster Creek, and each emitted different types of 82 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: pollutants into the environment and into people's bodies. And we 83 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: know that children, of course, they're most susceptible to to toxins. 84 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: And the issue became not so much wait for the government, 85 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: wait for leaders to do something about it, but to 86 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: really do a grassroots effort to force change. And I 87 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: think that was the same thing with the earlier sat 88 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: It was baby to study, you know it was. It 89 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: was a bottoms up movement and our efforts were twofold. 90 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: We did a number of studies, same with Indian point. 91 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: The recipe is the same of cancer rates around this area, 92 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: especially after the nuclear plant opened. And then we came 93 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: in with our own version of the baby tooth study. 94 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: Did Dr Gul said, hey, that that St. Louis study 95 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: years ago. It was incredible. Three teeth and it helped 96 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: past test ban treaty. Let's do one of our own, 97 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: and in places like Oyster Creek, you and I and 98 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: others went down and appeal for donations of teeth. We 99 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: had them tested in lads and we appeal for the 100 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: money to do the testing. Yes, yeah we did. We 101 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: did get support from this to state government. Now this 102 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: is when Jim McGreevey was governor. To do the test. 103 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: We found basically that number one, the levels nearest to 104 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: the plant were a lot higher than people living far 105 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: from the plant. Number two, as time went on, the 106 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: levels are getting higher and higher as the reactor got 107 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: older and leaked more. And number three we found a 108 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: link with childhood cancer. Just picture a graph with two lines. 109 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: One is the trend in Stradia ninety and one is 110 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: the trend in childhood cancer and the local area they 111 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: look the same. And we found this near Indian Point 112 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: and near Brookhaven and Long Island as well, and we 113 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: published them in medical journals. That which separates us from 114 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: other activist groups for nuclear I I am the author 115 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: call author of thirty eight medical journal articles on these 116 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: topics in order to give this similar perspective. And then 117 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: is we go down to an area where what we're 118 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: basically saying is don't extend the license of this operation. 119 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: The licenses expired, the licenses have to be renewed. These 120 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: things have to be inspected. That's machinery. It wears out. 121 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: There's leakage, there's this, there's that, there's problems. All of 122 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: these nuclear reactors have to varying degrees. Not all of 123 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: them are life threatening catastrophes in the making, but but 124 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: many of them have some serious problems. But when we 125 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: went down to Oyster Cree, because I want to get 126 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: to Indian Point in a minute. But when we went 127 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: down to New Jersey, here's a couple of highlights that 128 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: I recall. One was Linda Gillick. Linda Gillick was a 129 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: woman who became an activist over autism clusters, another soft 130 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: tissue ailment, their prostrate breast brain autism clusters in the 131 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: Toms River area, that coastal area of New Jersey down 132 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: there mimics Long Island with a very narrow lens of 133 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: soil Union card. But I believe was putting toxins into 134 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: the ground and poorous sandy soil going right into the 135 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: water table. Green piece was actually gonna target see bagagis 136 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: pipe that they had out into the ocean. They were 137 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: dumping resin or something. And Lynda Gillick turns around and 138 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: she says to her congressman, I would like some discretionary 139 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: funds to do some research into the groundwater and find 140 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: out what's in there and what's causing these cancer clusters 141 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: here and these other soft tissue clusters like autism. The 142 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: moment that the Congressman is going to give her five 143 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: million bucks to do this research see Bagogy and Union 144 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Carbide settled the case. And then when all the records sealed, 145 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: didn't want anybody to know what's in the ground there, 146 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: what they were pumping out into the ocean. They settled 147 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: the whole thing. So of the three villains in my 148 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: mind who were responsible for the toxicity in that Tom's 149 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: River area see Bagogy, Union Carbide. Some people even suspect 150 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: that these places are cited where there is cross contamination, 151 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: so you can't prosecute them. Some people would argue that 152 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: not only are nuclear facilities cited where there's low income 153 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: labor who crave these jobs, because some of these guys 154 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: are making thirty an hour in a union where our 155 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: technicians who were responsible for operating these these facilities. Like 156 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: what happened to us when we went to Ocean County 157 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: and we're at Ocean County College and we packed the place, 158 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: we pack it. I mean they're sitting in the aisles, 159 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,599 Speaker 1: and the one guy looks to me. He's out of Steinbeck. 160 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: He's a young dad with his wife and two kids, 161 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: and he says, you're not here to close the plant, 162 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: are you? And I said, no, we're not here to 163 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: close the plant. We're here to present you with all 164 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: the information and the facts, and you decide if you 165 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: want the plant closed. But then we go to those 166 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: two guys, the father and son, who were the state 167 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: senator and his son was an alderman or whatever they 168 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: call them down there in New Jersey, and we asked 169 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: him for discretionary money to use for the baby Tooth study, 170 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: and they agree to give us the money. And then 171 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: Governor Christine Todd Whitman line item vetos those requests that 172 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: we get the money to do the baby tooth study, 173 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: that there was ever a shill for the nuclear industry. 174 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: God it was her. Talk to me now about the 175 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: work you've done specifically related to Indian Point. Indian Point was, 176 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: in addition to Oys to Creak, another one of our 177 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: major prior ease because of its proximity to New York City, 178 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the most densely populated area of the country, 179 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: meant the greatest health risks, so we focus a lot 180 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: of our work on those two plants. Indian Point is 181 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: located thirty five miles north of Times Square. It's on 182 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: the Hudson River, which is quite close. Even though years 183 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: ago there were numerous proposals to build nuclear reactors, not 184 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: just around New York City, but in New York City. 185 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 1: Let's build one below Central Park, below Roosevelt Island, right 186 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: across the East River from the u. N. Let's build 187 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: an island just off Coney Island, build reactors. These all 188 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: made the New York Times. These were actual ideas. None 189 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: of them came through, but the closest one was Indian Point, 190 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: which opened in nineteen three reactors. One was a small 191 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: one that closed in nineteen seventy four, but there were 192 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: two much larger ones built in the mid nineteen seventies, 193 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: and those are the ones we we focused on. The 194 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: way we approached any point was sort of two ways. 195 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: The burden of proof was on us to show that 196 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: there was not just radiation being released and entering the body, 197 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: but to show that there was harm. The releases were easy, 198 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: taking um data that the industry is required to report 199 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: every year, and the Indpoint was one of the highest 200 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: amounts of radiation in the seventies and nineties into the air. 201 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: Number two was the baby Tooth study. We appealed to 202 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: people to donate teeth and we collected five teeth near 203 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: Indian Point. We found the strontium ninety levels higher than 204 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: elsewhere in New York State. And again the similar patterns 205 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: with child cancer. And then finally, the litany of cancer 206 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: statistics dress cancers higher, child cancer is higher. The biggest 207 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: one is thyroid cancer, which is not one of the 208 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: high profile cancer. It's usually treatable, although it's a horrible 209 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: experience ba CANNA. In the nineteen seventies, when these two 210 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: big reactors are opening, the rate in the four county 211 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: area within twenty miles of New Point was two below 212 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: the US and by the year two thousand, fifty five 213 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: percent higher. And that's where where it is today. I mean, 214 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: instead of fifty cases a year in the fourth it's 215 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: like over four cases. In emergency circumstances like a possible 216 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: meltdown or a leak or whatever, where there's contamination and 217 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: the public is exposed on a larger scale, don't they 218 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: issue like iodine or something for people to consume to 219 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: to prevent thyroid cancer. The thyroid is very vulnerable to radiation. Yes, yes, 220 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: iodine goes directly to the thyroid glands all right where 221 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: it kills and in your cells. And yes, one of 222 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: the ways that are used to reduce the effects of 223 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: a meltdown would be to take this what they call 224 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: potassium iodide, which sort of coats the thyroid gland and 225 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: protects it from iodone. All along, they've never copped to 226 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: the fact that there was a be radiation emitted from 227 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: these facilities on a daily basis. Am I correct, they have, 228 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: but their slogan is too low to be harmful. Officials 229 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: new they couldn't operated without allowing at least some of 230 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: this highly toxic radio activity to be released into the environment. 231 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: So they said what they called permissible limits and took 232 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: the big giant step of saying that permissible limits means 233 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: they are safe, they don't harm people. It's like a 234 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: doctor's telling a patient, well, you spoke five cigarettes today, 235 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: so let's below the permisible limits and there's no health 236 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: rents are your You know your wife smokes, but you don't, 237 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: so you're okay. No, all radiation is harmful at all 238 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: levels and you know, a lot of the discussion about 239 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: a place like Indian Point was about potential harm from 240 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: a meltdown or if radioactive waste were at least somehow. 241 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: We dealt with actual cases of cancer, We dealt with 242 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: actual deaths from the actual releases that you actually went 243 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: into people's bodies, into their baby teeth. And we also 244 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: feel that it probably resulted in the greatest hostility from 245 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: the nuclear industry being pointed at us. We had evidence, 246 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: and they didn't like it one bit. Well, they wanted 247 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: an industry that evolved from a process of bomb making 248 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: to end the war, and they're saying in the wake 249 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: of the war, they're saying, hey man, these guys are 250 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: our partners and making armaments to defend our country, so 251 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: let's give them a little bit of a break. They 252 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: would like to take these reactors and put them in 253 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: hundreds of sites around the country, and these things are 254 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: gonna boil water and you're gonna have steam turbines. It's 255 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: going to be, you know the famous quote, too cheap 256 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: to meter. And let's throw these guys a bone. Let's 257 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: let him make a little money on the side. And 258 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: you know, you realize that's always been the fight, which 259 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: this is about money. These companies, whether it's geor who 260 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: would you say the dominant power corporate wise in nuclear 261 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: technology far the too biggest funds where g E and Westinghouse. 262 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: G E and Westinghouse made almost of the reactors, and 263 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: they're like, hey, man, you know we're making money here. 264 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: Get out of the way. We're not hurting anybody, and 265 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: so they claimed. So tell people what happened recently at 266 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: Indian Point. Indian Point, but the two reactors reached their 267 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: forty year license and applied for an extension from the 268 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: federal government of twenty additional years. And you know, reactors 269 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: weren't supposed to last more than forty years, but with 270 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: no reactors being built, they hatched this idea to keep 271 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: it going. A number of the citizen groups against Indian 272 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: Point took on the license extension, and they took it 273 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: to court and legal actions, and finally a deal was 274 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: worked out where the reactors continued to run until last 275 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: year and this year, but no more closed forever, which 276 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: leaves the hundred mile radius around New York City with 277 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: zero operating nuclear reactors where at one time there was 278 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: supposed to be many. Joe Man Gano is the executive 279 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: director of the Radiation and Public Health Project. The dangers 280 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: of nuclear power are sometimes only apparent in the aftermath 281 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: of disasters three Mile Island in Pennsylvania, Chair NOBIL in 282 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: the Ukraine, and Fukushima in Japan. For more in depth 283 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: conversation on the challenges of nuclear power, listened to my 284 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: conversation with Gregory Yasco. He became Chair of the Nuclear 285 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: Regulatory Commission just before the Fukushima disaster. While in office, 286 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: he tried to tackle the persistent question of where to 287 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: store radioactive waste in a lot of ways. The best 288 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: alternative is probably to leave it where it is, you 289 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: know it really, I mean there are some places where 290 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: you don't want to keep it, you know, the probably 291 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: Indian Point, which is close to New York City. Um 292 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: so some of the fuel you want to move, you 293 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: want to get it into maybe another location, you think, 294 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: for for from an engineer ring standpoint, from a physics standpoint, 295 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: it's better to leave it there. Yeah, I think it 296 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: is right now. I mean, were certain transporting it is dangerous. 297 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: Transporting it adds a risk, and we just we don't 298 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: have any place to put it here. More of my 299 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: conversation with Gregory Jasco at Here's the Thing dot Org. 300 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: After the break, Richard Webster, Riverkeepers legal director, joins Joe 301 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: Mangano to explain the logistics involved in the fight to 302 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: close Indian Points. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 303 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. When they say the Earth needs a 304 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: good lawyer, Richard Webster is who they have in mind. 305 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: Richard works at Riverkeeper and before becoming an attorney, he 306 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: was a hydrologist and an environmental scientist. But in order 307 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 1: to close Indian Point you had to know what we're 308 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: up against, and she was the owner at the end. 309 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: Niper built in the point. Niper New York Power Authority, 310 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: so it's a public company, and actually Connor built in 311 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: your point too. Basically, just to go all the way 312 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: back to the start. Nuclear plants to build them is 313 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: incredibly risky. They have a tradition of being away over 314 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: budget and way behind schedule. So the only people that 315 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: can really afford to build nuclear plants are either public 316 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: corporations or public utilities. But then the problem came that 317 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: they weren't operating them very efficiently in the sense that 318 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: the run times were not very high, so there has 319 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: a sense that if you're into a private company, they 320 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: will increase the run times, which they did. By run times, 321 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: you mean how long their online and active and producing 322 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: power exactly, so that the availability went up from about 323 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: I think seal which you can make the difference between 324 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: the reactor making money or the reactor losing money. What 325 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: experience shows is that it's hard to keep a reactor 326 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: maintained in the first place, and it's doubly hard if 327 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: you don't want to come offline when you detect problems. So, 328 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: for example, an Indian point, they had a problem with 329 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: the reactor lid and how well it fitted, and repeatedly 330 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: what they found was that there was leakage around the 331 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: top of the reactor lid. Every outage they found this leakage, 332 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: but they didn't stop the reactor in the middle to 333 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: investigate this leakage because they wanted the production. And that's 334 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: what you see repeatedly. Davis Bessie was the most egregious 335 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: example of this, where cooling water actually eight all the 336 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: way through the reactor head, which was about six inches 337 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: of steel. The only thing left holding the pressurized water 338 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: in the reactor together was half in layer of stainless steel. 339 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: They refused to take that offline four weeks and got 340 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: very close actually to a meltdown there. So that's one 341 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: problem in the nuclear industry is there's a lot of 342 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,959 Speaker 1: pressure for production and that tends to lead to undermining 343 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: of maintenance and safety. Another example I'll give you is 344 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: the battle bolts at Indian Point. When they finally measured 345 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: the battle bolts, they found that over half of them 346 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: were defective, but they didn't then take a new point 347 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: three offline and measure that one. They let that run 348 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: for another year. And then when they measured the battle 349 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: bolts there, which is baffle bolts, by the way, the 350 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: things that kind of hold the inside of the reactor together, 351 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: they found that over seventy percent of those are defective. 352 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: So people who say, oh, you know, nuclear plants that 353 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: they're pretty safe are too complacent. We haven't seen any 354 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: major nuclear disaster apart from t m I here yet, 355 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: But just because we got lucky so far doesn't mean 356 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: to say we shouldn't get smart. What happened to t 357 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: m t M I was operator arm That could obviously 358 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: happen again, but the chance of operator probably goes down 359 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: or stays the same more or less over time. The 360 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: thing that concerns me is that as the reactors get older, 361 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: the margin between what's exceptional and what's unacceptable get smaller 362 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: and smaller as you have corrosion fatigue and all these phenomena. 363 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: And I don't think the industry is doing a very 364 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: good job at managing these phenomena. They're just basically hoping 365 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: and chancing it. You know, we saw that at Oyster 366 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: Creek where the secondary pressure vessel had been corroding and 367 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: points was half as thick as it started off. It 368 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: started off about an inch and a half thick and 369 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: at points it was point seven inches thick. But the 370 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: industry was saying excellent. There was saying, oh no, it's okay, 371 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: it's stopped corroding. We promise, and therefore we don't need 372 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: to do any more measurements for twenty years. I mean, 373 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: that's just wishful thinking. And explained to people how we 374 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: have the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, which of course was the 375 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: precursor was the Atomic Energy Commission, and the NRC is 376 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: there presumably to protect the interests of the American people. 377 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: How would you evaluate how good of a job they're 378 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: doing in that Department. Well, I've been to a lot 379 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: of meetings with NRC personnel, and you know, they're generally 380 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: nice people, and I think they're generally competent engineers. But 381 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: I think there's a fundamental problem with the agency. And 382 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: I think my best anecdote this was all the time 383 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: as own meeting in New Jersey and a guy stood 384 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: up from the back and said, you guys at the NLC, 385 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: you're taking taxpayers money and you should be protecting the taxpayers. 386 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: The n l C. You guys stood up and said, 387 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: actually funded by industry, so don't worry about it. That 388 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: was illustrative to me. That is that accurate? Yes? Yes, Now, 389 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: what was the a e C completely funded by the government. 390 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: Did they replace the a C with the n RC 391 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: to put the industry in charge of its own regulation? Joe, 392 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: do you have an answer? Yeah, I think the a 393 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: C was government funded, but definitely the NRC is ninety 394 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: funded by industry fees. Energy is supposed to be a 395 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: regulator and not to promote nuclear power, which is what 396 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: the a e C was doing to help sell this 397 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: project to the American people, right, they kept promoting it. 398 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: That was right. To go back another step, it all 399 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: comes out of Atoms for Peace, right. The original idea 400 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: was to show we hadn't spend all this money just 401 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: creating a nuclear bomb, we also created something useful. So 402 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: that's where the a C came in. And then there 403 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: was a concern that the a C, because it had 404 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: to promote nuclear power, couldn't really be an effective safety regulator, 405 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: so they formed the NRC. But I do think there 406 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: was some deliberate shenanigans in the setup of the NRC, 407 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: because the NARC was designed to be rigidly independent of politics, 408 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: and so that's why the industry largely funds and r C. 409 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: And it also stands as what's for an independent agency 410 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: with like five commissioners, which are normally three from the 411 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: president's party and two from the other party. But they've 412 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: been steadfastly pro industry. So basically, the NRC is one 413 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: of the very few agencies where a senator could write 414 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: the letter asking him a reasonable question and they basically 415 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: say get lost. And in fact, I found that's the 416 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: most effective way to get a senator on your side, 417 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, because when you complain to a senator, oh 418 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, the NRC won't tell me. This, won't tell 419 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: me that. Then the Senator says, I'll soon find that out. 420 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: Write some a letter, and they basically right back saying, sorry, 421 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: we're not going to tell you. By I want to 422 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: ask you, Richard Webster, win Napor in cooperation, I guess 423 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: we're Carnet or whatever they build these facilities, what is 424 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: the path and what is the reasoning why they pass 425 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: into the hands of companies like Energy? When does that 426 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: happen and why? So that happened around twenty years ago, 427 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: and the theory was Entergy has a fleet of nuclear actors, 428 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: so they don't just own one or two nuclear actors. 429 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: They get They owned I think twenty at the time, 430 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: and so they gain knowledge and because they have a fleet, 431 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: they were able to maintain them more effectively and run 432 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: them more effectively. So that was the theory, and they 433 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: did keep the reactor running for longer. But I question 434 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: whether they ran it as safely and what was your opinion? 435 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: Didn't I be and carn Ed overall run it more 436 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: safely than Entergy do? Yes, because the production pressure wasn't 437 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: there right, so they were content to go offline when 438 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: they had a lower expectation. I think actually they had 439 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: a higher expectation about safety. I mean, it's very interesting. 440 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: You meet a lot of people in the nuclear industry 441 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: come from the nuclear Navy, and they always say, well, 442 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: you know, like people wouldn't go on a submarine with 443 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: a nuclear actor if the nuclear actors weren't safe. The 444 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: difference is in the Navy, they're very procedurally orientated and 445 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: they don't have a pressure to produce all the time. 446 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: They can take the thing offline. When you're in a 447 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: commercial situation, there's a lot of pressure to produce, and 448 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: that pressure to produce producers as we've seen with with 449 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: Indian Point, I mean a litany of maintenance problems, you know, 450 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: that o ring problems sort of about on the reactor 451 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: lid that recurred I think three times, so they never 452 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: actually fixed it. What do you think was ultimately responsible 453 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: for closing Indian Point? What finally made it happen? People 454 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: power votes. It's notable that in New York the state 455 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: subsidizes some upstate nuclear plants while at the same time 456 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: closing down Indian Point. Where are the other plants in 457 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: New York? The ones in Oswego, that's Genae, and then 458 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: there's Fitzpatrick, I think, which is up on Lake Ontario 459 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: nine mile point nine. So combine that with with pressure 460 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: from US Rear keeper on the cooling water permit. Describe 461 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: the speci a fix of that for people who don't 462 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: understand the massive amounts of water that are necessary. These 463 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: things are always built on a river. Correct. Correct, And 464 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: they deliberately decided to install an outdated system of cooling 465 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: even when they built the plant, which is called wants 466 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: through cooling, so that the water just comes in, cools 467 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: the hot water from the reactor, and then goes out again. 468 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: There's no recycling of the cooling water that takes in 469 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: billions of gallons a day, puts out hot water billions 470 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: of gallons a day, kills billions of organisms a year. 471 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,239 Speaker 1: It has a huge impact on the ecosystem, and there 472 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: is a lot of clean water rate that requires the 473 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 1: best technology available to be fitted. And so we were 474 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: pushing very hard on that side of things, and the 475 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: state was coming along with us. So that was essentially 476 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that helped close it was that 477 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: you insisted and the government eventually fell on line to 478 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: have them adjust this cooling operation. Correct. That's right, because 479 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: you see that the state can't just close a nuclear 480 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: plant out of safety concerns. Only the NRC can regulate safety. 481 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: Only the organization in the pocket of the industry has 482 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: the right to close down the plant. Well, so that's 483 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: where the cooling water comes in, because the state has 484 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: a right to impose protection of their environmental resources. Exactly, 485 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: is there a place in the United States or anywhere 486 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: around the world where they're doing the cooling more effectively? 487 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: Where are they getting the cooling right? I don't know 488 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: if they wrinkling up his nose here, No one's getting 489 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: it right, Joe. The bottom line is the state had 490 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: could insist on high standards for cooling, and that's indeed 491 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: the route that the callsign administration went down for Oyster Creek, 492 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: and basically the administration went down the same route in 493 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: New York and in the lights of the threat of 494 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: the strict standard, Entergy agreed to take a deal where 495 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: they had four more years and then they could close. 496 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: So that's interesting they'd rather I mean, who knows whether 497 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: the extension of the least would have gone the twenty 498 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: years at Indian Point that they wanted, But they were 499 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: willing to close the plant rather than adjust the cooling operation. Yeah, 500 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: they were willing to close the plant rather than stop 501 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: destroying the aquatic life. Now, when you're on the Hudson, 502 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: you're dealing with fresh water presumably, and that's Harrison where 503 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: Indian Point is. Where did the water come from? For 504 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: Oyster Creek? Well, actually, on the Hudson, you're dealing with 505 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: with brackish. It's the tide comes up and down, still 506 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,479 Speaker 1: brackish at that point Oyster Creek, it came basically out 507 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: of the bay there, out of Bottegat Bay. So they 508 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: can't use ocean water. They can't use salt water, they 509 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: can't use so Santa no free in places like that, 510 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: they use ocean water. Yeah, yeah, because I was wasn't 511 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: sure about the corrosian factor. Okay, a question I should 512 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: have asked you back in actually, so that anyway, So 513 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: Joe Mingano from our PHP, you tell me what do 514 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: you think contributed to closing Indian Point. The two reasons. 515 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: The first one was public concern about safety and health, 516 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: which is something that we helped to build by our 517 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: studies on our work. The second one is economics. Why 518 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: are nuclear plants costly? It's because they are dangerous to operate. 519 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: It takes many trained, and it takes complex safety systems, 520 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: and it requires lots of security, and it involves lots 521 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: of money that goes to waste storage, you know, as 522 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: you don't see from other So for both reasons, it 523 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: goes back to safety and health. Joe man Gano from 524 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: the Radiation and Public Health Project and Richard Webster from 525 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: Riverkeeper follow Here's the Thing on the I Heart radio app, 526 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, 527 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: leave us a review when we come back. Paul Galley, 528 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: president of Hudson Riverkeeper, talks about Indian Points risk to 529 00:29:48,560 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: New York waterways. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 530 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Water plays a key role in nuclear 531 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: power plants heated by fission. Water becomes steam that spins 532 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: the turbines that generate energy. Water also cools the reactors 533 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: and spent fuel rods. Indian Point was built on the 534 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: Hudson River and for more than five decades, Riverkeeper has 535 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: fought to keep the Hudson clean. Paul Gallet is its president. 536 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: I've been with Riverkeeper for eleven years and Indian Points 537 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: just been a huge focus. We also help stop fracking 538 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: in New York, got New York to reinvest in water 539 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: infrastructure so that water quality could come back. And one 540 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: of the most interesting things that we've been involved in, 541 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: thanks to support from the state, is removing all the old, 542 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: unneeded dams that are blocking the fish from getting to 543 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: their areas where they spawn and where they used to feed, 544 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: so that we can reconnect our rivers and tributaries restore 545 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: our biodiversity in the Hudson Watershed. Was this related to 546 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: the reservoir system in New York at all or no? 547 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,959 Speaker 1: The reservoir systems still up and probably gonna stay up. 548 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: But these are old dams that used to be used 549 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: for factories that haven't existed for sixty years. But they 550 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: never took the dams down and they've been blocking the river. 551 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: So we took the first three down and our partners 552 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: and government have taken others down. So we're gonna bring 553 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: the fishback. Where were you working What kind of work 554 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: were you doing before you came to Riverkeeper? So I 555 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: worked for the State of New York at the Department 556 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: of Environmental Conservation. You know, when I was at the 557 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: d E. C. Basil Sagos was at River Keeper, and 558 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: then I came to Riverkeeper. Now Basil Sagos has running 559 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: d e C. There's a little funny story for you 560 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: musical chairs over there. Also worked in land conservation for 561 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: ten years. And you know, I'm thirty five years in 562 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: on environmental protection and I'm pretty excited about the work 563 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: that we're doing. Remember in the eighties we went up 564 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: to go visit Mario Cuoma and they were going to 565 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: have in the wake of the certification of the passing 566 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: of the Big Green Initiative in California, they wanted a 567 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: similar referendum here in New York and they put up 568 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: the Environmental Bond Act. They wanted one point one billion dollars. 569 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: And of course, the friction between the Democratic and Republican 570 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: leadership in both the House and the Senate in Albany 571 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: was that the Republicans wanted eight hundred million dollars for 572 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: construction projects that they could hand out to their supporters 573 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: and three d million dollars for land acquisition and for 574 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: passive measures, and the Democrats wanted the opposite. They wanted 575 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: eight hundred billion dollars and land acquisition and passive measures. 576 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: And and as many people know, there was a very 577 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: somewhat sinister move afoot to force the treatment of New 578 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: York City water. They wanted to switch from New York 579 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: City's water remains filtered but not treated correct. Yeah, the 580 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: city has avoided filtration for its larger system. The smaller 581 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: system has the filtration. And it's because they protect the 582 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: lands around the reservoirs. And that's the big watershed agreement 583 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: that riverkeepers struck with the City of New York in 584 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: the state and the upshed upstate towns. Way back in 585 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: about so some people accused certain administrations in Albany, the governor, 586 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: and I don't think I need to name who. This 587 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: is a very long term serving governor who wanted to 588 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: denigrate He wanted to impact the quality of the water 589 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: to force treatments. They wanted to force stream because it 590 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: could be a multi billion dollar project in terms of 591 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: construction for many people who don't live in the area. 592 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: The water supply for the City of New York comes 593 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: from reservoirs and the mountains above and the hills above. 594 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: And historically they flooded private land. They displaced hundreds of 595 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: not thousands of people years ago, and they flooded it 596 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: with these reservoirs, which became the drinking water supply for 597 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: the city of New York, which remains relatively well protected. 598 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: There was some runoff from roads and so forth, and 599 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: some still some untreated sewage that seeps into that water 600 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: in developments and so forth. But there were Republican governors 601 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: and representatives in Albany who wanted to see that system 602 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: go down enough well, they wanted to relax those protections, 603 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,720 Speaker 1: which would necessitate the building of treatment plants for the water, 604 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: which would have been multibillion dollar projects to treat that 605 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: water the way other cities water was treated. I think 606 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: they came around because ultimately Mario Cuomo had the idea 607 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: to do this agreement to avoid the filtration, and George Pataki, 608 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: his successor, ended up sealing the deal, and I worked 609 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: for both of them actually at the d e C 610 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: and h PATTACKI ultimately ended up being pretty proud of 611 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: his partnership with River Keeper. Fantastic that. I'm glad that 612 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned that, because Pataki was exactly who I was 613 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: talking about as the person who I was under the 614 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: impression was trying to force the treatment of the water. 615 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: POTACKI is an environmental hero. I didn't know it, so 616 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: Riverkeepers role in helping to close Indian Point. What kind 617 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: of work have you guys been doing in terms of 618 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: Indian Point. Well. Riverkeeper got involved on Indian Point back 619 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: in the ninet seventies when the plant was first doing 620 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: so much damage to the river. It was incredible, and 621 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: we've made sure that we got the studies necessary to 622 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,919 Speaker 1: show the damage that the plant was doing to the river. 623 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: And the state saw those studies, and to their credit, 624 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: they decided that the plant would need to build cooling 625 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: towers to avoid damaging the river so much so they 626 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: didn't have cooling towers initially at all. Now they still 627 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: they never did. They never built them. Had they built 628 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: them back in the day, that plant might still be operating, 629 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: but they refused to comply with the Clean Water Act. 630 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: They refused to protect the river from the damage that 631 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,919 Speaker 1: was being done. That plant used more water every day 632 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: than the entire city of New York, almost double, and 633 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 1: they destroyed a tremendous amount of river life. And they've 634 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: done a real number on the biodiversity of the Hudson. 635 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: But after nine eleven, that's when we realized there was 636 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: a bigger threat, a bigger threat to the river. A 637 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: bigger threat to our communities, and that was the spent 638 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: fuel that's sitting right now and relatively unpretend pools that 639 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: could be damaged by attack or greater leak. So the 640 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: spent fuel is as vulnerable, if not more vulnerable than 641 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: the actual reactor inside the dome, correct much more vulnerable. 642 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: There's no concrete around it, and there's five times as 643 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: much radiation in those spent fuel pools as there is 644 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: in the reactors. And that's why not only do we 645 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: have an agreement that has allowed us to close the 646 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: Indian Point as of last Friday, but Richard has negotiated 647 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: in the agreement that requires all that spent fuel to 648 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: be moved by into far safer, dry cask storage. So 649 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: the regions safer as a Friday, and will be still 650 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: safer when that spent fuel is moved. When you shut 651 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: down a reactor like Indian Point, what is the impact 652 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: on the available power for the community at large. So 653 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: the good news here is we've had so much energy 654 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: efficiency added into the system and some renewables as well. 655 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: We're actually burning less natural gas now than we were 656 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: the day we signed in that closure agreement, because, like 657 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: I said, we're been busy for a decade now. The 658 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: state began preparing for Indian Points closure. In they came 659 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: up with a renewable energy program called Clean Energy Standard. 660 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: They required a tripling of energy efficiency programs by utilities. 661 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: In they passed the Best Climate Leadership and Community Protection 662 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: Act to cut carbon in the Nation, which is going 663 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: to require seventy of our power to come from carbon 664 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: free sources by. I could go on and on, but 665 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: because of the work that's been done, we're on track 666 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: to replace Indian points power output roughly three times over 667 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: by and offshore wind will do it a fourth time 668 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: over and we're ahead of schedule for meeting that seventy 669 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: reduction by As the industry thrown in the towel is 670 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: in terms of development of these tech novelogies and using 671 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: them for utility reactors or are they still going to 672 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: keep coming with modern developments and what do you think 673 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: the odds are that they're going to succeed When you 674 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: go around the horn here, Joe, you go first. They're 675 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 1: gonna keep trying to push these new types of reactors, 676 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: but there's really not going to get beyond the talking stage. 677 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: In fact, there have been several bright ideas in the 678 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: past that have bombed terribly, the sodium pools reactors, where 679 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: there was a meltdown near Los Angeles, at Santa Susanna, 680 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: there was a near meltdown near Detroit that went out, 681 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 1: the breeder reactor concept that went out. They'll keep trying, 682 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: but in the past more than half century, it's it's 683 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: never gone beyond just the talking stage. What about you, Paul, 684 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: what do you think? Well, even if they were to succeed, 685 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: and there's no evidence that they will, they're not going 686 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: to have any scale on this for decades. And there's 687 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: one nuclear plant being built in the US right now 688 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: in Georgia. They're billions over budget. They just announced yet 689 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: another dual A but long story short. While we're waiting 690 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: for the so called fourth generation nukes to show up, 691 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: we've got all the technology we need to solve our 692 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: energy challenges in hand. Wind and solar and battery storage 693 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: keeps getting cheaper beyond hopes and expectations. The build out 694 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: keeps getting bigger, and so we got the tools in hand. 695 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: Let's focus on what we have in hand, because we 696 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 1: don't have twenty years to start building stuff. We got 697 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: to build stuff now and Paul. What's the status of 698 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: the fracking thing in New York? Now, stop hard stop. 699 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: The governor banned and then the legislature banned it legally, 700 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,439 Speaker 1: and the governor signed that law about a year ago. 701 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: Richard Webster, what do you think is the future for nukes? Well, 702 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, my niece actually works in fusion research, and 703 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: she says, the joke there is that fusion is always 704 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: twenty years away. But it's been twenty years away for 705 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: fifty years, right, So so that's kind of the submary 706 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 1: of affordable nukes. I think. Let me just say this, 707 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,479 Speaker 1: I've never been more gratified working in public policy. Things 708 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: I've worked on that our campaign, finance, reform, reproductive rights, 709 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: a women's right to choose, gun control, whatever issues I've 710 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: been involved with. It has never been an issue I've 711 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: been involved with like shutting down utility reactors where I 712 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 1: encountered a group of men and women. Because Jeanette Sherman 713 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: passed away who we worked with him, I want to 714 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: have a tip of the hat to her and all 715 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: of our colleagues that we worked with over the years. 716 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: I've never been more gratified working with a group of 717 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: people than I had them with you guys, and I 718 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: want to say that that Indian Point is closed. Indian 719 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: Point's not gonna close. We're not trying to pressure them 720 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: to close it. Indian Point is closed. Was an epic battle, 721 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: but Indian Point is closed because of the work of 722 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: each of you on this podcast with me. You worked 723 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: with many other groups. We know that. We always acknowledge 724 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: our colleagues who were out there and worked with us, 725 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: and we're very great to them. But name one that 726 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: you helped really worth the Indian Point. What's a local 727 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 1: group that was really ferocious on that? Oh? Well, I've 728 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: got a name, clear Water. I actually represented clear Water 729 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: at the re licensing hearing on an environmental justice contention 730 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,479 Speaker 1: and we actually one of the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board, 731 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: which is quite rare. Of course, we lost on appeal, 732 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: but you know, I always say with the NRC, the 733 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: question is not whether you win, it's how long do 734 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: you not lose? For Well, my phrase with the NRC 735 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: is we're always going to win twenty years from you, 736 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,479 Speaker 1: and we've been saying that for fifty years. One last 737 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: comment from each of you, Richard, how do you feel 738 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: about it? I feel great about it. I think We 739 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: worked hard, we marshaled the facts, the people were persuaded, 740 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: and the politicians listened. So that's probably a rare thing, 741 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: but it's nice when it happens. Paul galleis grateful, and 742 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: I've got to give my tip of a hat to 743 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: a man who has not been mentioned, but for fifteen 744 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: years or so, Andrew Cuomo stayed true to this cause 745 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: and he was on that agreement. In the agreement also 746 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't have happened if not for the commitment, and New 747 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: York State in this administration got it, got it well done. 748 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: Joseph Banano I feel mixed. On the one hand, we 749 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: know from our studies that we've done that local rates 750 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: of child cancer and infantests are going to plunge immediately, 751 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: and cancer at all ages and eventually will go down. 752 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: On the other hand, it's unfortunate that we had to 753 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: go through this period where people had to suffer to 754 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: get to this point. Now that right there, that's the 755 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: Joe Bangano I grew to love. The guy was never satisfied. 756 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: We had to have one more lunch. We need to 757 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: raise more money and give him. How that's the Joe 758 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,760 Speaker 1: I love. He's never satisfied. We're gonna be a million 759 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 1: years old trying to raise money for anti nuclear utilities. Gentlemen, 760 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: I want to thank you very much. Indian Point is closed, 761 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,959 Speaker 1: and that is due in large part to the work 762 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: that each of you have done. My thanks to all 763 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: three of you for doing this show. I'm very grateful. 764 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot like wonderful to told to you. Thank you, 765 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for the work you did too. Thank you 766 00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 1: all very much. Thank you. Hall Galley is the president 767 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: of Hudson Riverkeeper. My thanks to him, Richard Webster and 768 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: Joe Mangano for their time and their dedication to this 769 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: long fight. Indian Point has closed, but there are still 770 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,240 Speaker 1: nine three other nuclear reactors still operating in the United 771 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: States and more than four others around the world. We're 772 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie Donohue, and Zach McNeice. Our 773 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. 774 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,280 Speaker 1: Is brought to you by iHeart Radio.