1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to steph you missed in history class from how 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson, and we 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: have a fun interview today. If you have ever been 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: to the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, and you 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: have experienced they're really impressive and incredibly lovely African art collection, 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: what you may not realize is that is the vision 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: of primarily one person, who is Carol Thompson, our guest today. 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: Carol has been with the High for nearly sixteen years 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: as the Fred and Rita Richmond Curator of African Art, 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: and she was kind enough to the studio and sit 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: down to talk with Holly about her career path, her 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: passion for art, and the challenges of assembling a collection. Yeah, 14 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: she also talks a lot about the importance of African 15 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: art in world history and world culture. So let's hop 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: right in. So today we are super duper lucky because 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: I have in studio with me Carol Thompson, who is 18 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: the Fred and Rita Richmond Curator of African Art at 19 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: the High Museum of Art in Atlanta. How lucky am I? 20 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much? Alie, Oh my goodness, thank you 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: for being here. So I know we have a lot 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: of listeners that are very interested in art and art history. 23 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: So I have to ask you right out of the gate, 24 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: how did you become an art curator? I feel like 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: that's one of those things people always say it's a 26 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: dream job, but they don't know if there are multiple 27 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: avenues to get into that career or if it's a 28 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: fairly set track. So tell us how to become you. 29 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: So there there are many paths, and my path was 30 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: certainly a long and winding path, not a straight line 31 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: at all. Some people choose the straight line, which would 32 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: be academic straight through PhD as quickly as possible. I 33 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: did not do that. I'm from a small small town 34 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: in Minnesota, and everyone first meets me and says, how 35 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: in the world could you be the curator of African art? 36 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Since you can see my face, you don't know that 37 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: my eyes are blue and at the car at the moment, 38 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: I have champagne blonde hair, but my hair is normally 39 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: so I'm a blonde, blue eyed Norwegian ancestry. But I'm 40 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: gonna actually, if you forgive me, Holly, I'm going to 41 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: jump to the very last question that you're about to 42 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: ask me. And in my view, just as French and 43 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: impresent impressionism is not only for the French, African art 44 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: is not only for Africans and not only for people's 45 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: of African ancestry. But then on the other hand, if 46 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: you look back in history, everyone is of African ancestry. 47 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: But of course you know so. But to be more precise, 48 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 1: I I was introduced. I became interested in art when 49 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: I was in high school, and I started out drawing, 50 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: and I sometimes still draw. So I started out as 51 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: as an artist. And my first drawing professor at Hamlin 52 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: University came from a family that collected African art, and 53 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: that was St. Paul, Minnesota, just adjacent to Minneapolis. He said, 54 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: you should also pay attention to African art. The Minneapolis 55 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: Institute has a tremendous collection of African art. The Walker 56 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: Arts Center at that time was presenting a fantastic exhibition 57 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: of the arts of Ghana, and there was an African 58 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: film festival at the time. African cinema remains one of 59 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: my strong interests. But at the undergraduate level, I was 60 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: interested in art from lots of different times and places. 61 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: But when I decided to go on to pursue a PhD, 62 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: I went to the University of Iowa. I had already 63 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: lived in New York and Paris, and I thought, let 64 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: me go back to the Midwest, be near my parents 65 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: for a minute and my family, because no doubt I'm 66 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: going to be leaving again after I finished my study. 67 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: And so I went to the University of Iowa. And 68 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: that Art History department is the first department in the 69 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: country to offer African art at the level of a 70 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: PhD in the Art history department. And who would think 71 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: the University of Iowa. Yeah, that would not have been 72 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: my first guest, right, And it's because of an artist, 73 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: Murie Sila Lozanski, who was the father of Leo Lozanski, 74 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: my drawing professor, that told me to look at African art, 75 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: not forget African art. So but then I so at 76 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: the meaning of this institute. There is a mask that 77 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: I still can see so clearly in my mind, and 78 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: it's despite differently now than it was when I was 79 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: in in the seventies in undergraduate school. At that time, 80 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: it was all by itself in a case and you 81 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: could see it from the back as well. As from 82 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: the front, and it's a mask that has four eyes, 83 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: two noses, two miles, so it looks like three faces overlapping, 84 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,559 Speaker 1: so it looks like it's in motion even when still. 85 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: Oh how beautiful. Yeah, and that's I was contemplating whether 86 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: or not I should reveal this information about myself. But 87 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: after working in New York at the Center for African 88 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: Art from seven to I think nineteen ninety six, I 89 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: returned to school too. I only did my m A 90 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: at the University of Iowa. I did some graduate work 91 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: in art history at Columbia while I was with the 92 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: Center for African Art. But then after nine years with 93 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: the museum, very extraordinary time, I decided, okay, time to 94 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: get a PhD. So I moved on to the Department 95 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: of Performance Studies at n y U two School of 96 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: the Arts. And this is the reveal that I don't 97 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: often reveal. I'm a b D. All but dissertation the 98 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: dirty secret. That's the dirty secret. So when you first 99 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: become a b D, it's something to tell the world 100 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: because that means you've finished all of the course work. 101 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: But to not write your dissertation, it's a it's a 102 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: terrible waste but at this point in my life, I've 103 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: published so much. I have had already was quite a 104 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: productive career to go back and do that. And my 105 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: dissertation was approved the title I worked on it. There's 106 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: a big outline when of my advisers said, Carol, each 107 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: chapter could be a dissertation. But stubborn headed as I am, 108 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: I thought, I'm going to do it this way. So 109 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: the title of that unwritten dissertation was African Art Performing Objects. 110 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: Actually another title slaves to Sculpture, African art performing Objects. 111 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: So of course that mask was exactly saying you a 112 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: siren song. That's right, Yeah, that's lovely. Was there a 113 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: point at which you realize like African artists definitely the 114 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: thing for me? Was it something you ruminated over or 115 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: was there just something that drew it assure you to it? 116 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: And as a decisive moment said, the decisive moment was 117 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: when I was at the University of Iowa and my 118 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,679 Speaker 1: professor at the time, Christopher roy I went. I remember 119 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: when I first met him. It was a little cocktail 120 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: party to introduce the new grad students to the faculty 121 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: and other students, and I, for some reason got into 122 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: a conversation with him about Burkina Fossio because that's one 123 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: of his areas of expertise. And I said the capital 124 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: of the city and I mispronounced it. I said Uga 125 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: doo Goo and he said, Carol, it's Waga douke. And 126 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: just a couple Just last week, I was talking to 127 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: Michael Rooks, my closest colleague at the High the curator 128 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: of Contemporary and Modern Art, and I was talking about 129 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: Waga Doog and it just made him. He did that laugh, 130 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: that snorting laugh. He didn't believe that it was really 131 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: a place. And I remember sending sending money to someone 132 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: who is my translator and who I commissioned work from 133 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: Jacoba Bonde, sculptor from the Bois region. And when I 134 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: went to Western Union, they said Burkina Fasso, that's not 135 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: a place. We can't send money there. And I said, no, 136 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: really it is. It is a place and we can't 137 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: send money there. So anyway, so when my professor Christopher Roy, 138 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: actually right in my first and second year there, he 139 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: was going to Burkina Faso every spring semester and some 140 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: of the grad students were complaining. I came here to 141 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: study with him, and he's not even here, and I said, no, no, no, 142 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: this is a very good thing. That means he's at 143 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: the forefront of this discipline and he is really one 144 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: of the world's experts on the art of Burkina. He's 145 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: published this gigantic book of the Tom Wheelock Collection, which 146 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: is the most important collection of art from Burkina in 147 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: the world. We've had works on loans from that collection, 148 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: but Chris roy would He was getting funding from National 149 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: Endowment for the Arts, National Endowment for the Humanities, and 150 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: even to this day he loves video. And that was 151 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: in the eighties and video was not so big as 152 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: it is now. And he was going to Burkina Faso 153 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: and attending masquerade performances throughout the whole nation and they're 154 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: more than sixty different ethnic groups there. So he's documented 155 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: the masquerade traditions of all of Verkina. And he would 156 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: come back with video and so in the classroom he 157 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: would be showing slides and then he would stop the 158 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: slide projector and show this unedited raw footage of masquerade 159 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: in Burkina, and it was larger than life. I was like, okay, 160 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: this is it. I gotta go to Burkino also, and 161 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: they have masquerade traditions that have wooden elements the masks 162 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: that we have in museums, but they also have a 163 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: type of mask that I just became enthralled by leaf masks. 164 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: They're they're a bit like nick Cave from the artists 165 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: and he's, okay, wonderful, I have to go ahead and 166 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: find that. So there, it's a very sacred form and 167 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: the it's a body total. Your body body is covered 168 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: with leaves, and that mask is the embodiment of the 169 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: spirit of dough and dough. It's all about regeneration. So 170 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: the masquerade performs Burkina is on the edge of the 171 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: Sarah Sahara, so the masquerade performs at the end of 172 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: the dry season before the next agricultural season begins. It's 173 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: considered the oldest and most sacred of the masquerade traditions. 174 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: And there's almost a competition between families the masks, the 175 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: families that used leaf masks as opposed to the newcomers 176 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: who use wood masks. So I I love both, but 177 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: I I'm actually initiated because the first time I went there, 178 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to be close to the leaf masks and 179 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: they said no. Carol only for the initiated, so I 180 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: could watch the masquerade over the earthen wall of the 181 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: compound where I was staying with Mama du full Fauna 182 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: Muslim family. But I couldn't approach the masks, so that 183 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: was frustrating. It was frustrating that then I went back 184 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: to Burkina Falso, before I came to Atlanta in two 185 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: thousand one, I had finished my coursework at n y U, 186 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: I was teaching at Vasser, was teaching African Art at 187 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: Vassar and Introduction to World to Our Art at City 188 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: City College in Harlem, and somehow I managed to carve 189 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: out four weeks mid semester, Oh my goodness to go 190 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: to Burkina Fossa. I got substitutes to cover for me, 191 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: and I got a research grant faculty research grant from 192 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: Vassar to go to Burkina Fossa. And I went with 193 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: my best friend, one of my best friends still today, 194 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: Patricia Blanche, who has done a whole series of photographs 195 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: from that moment called Burkina Reflected large scale formal portraits, 196 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: a bit inspired by the work of Malik CD Bay 197 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: and say Kita. She actually had a show at was 198 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: what was the Ace Atlantic College of Art Gallery now 199 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: SCAD those large scale color portraits. Borkina reflected, But that 200 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: was just amazing. I was hadn't been there from eight 201 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: seven to two thousand one, and the people were like, 202 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: she came back, and she came back with photographs that 203 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: she talked when she was here in eight seven. So 204 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: I had pictures, small little pictures, but pictures of people 205 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: who had grown up, pictures of people who had died. 206 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: And that was partly what sort of inspired Patricia to 207 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: then start this photo series. And then we traveled back 208 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: to Burkina together and two thousand three and two thousand 209 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: five we haven't been back since, so but I would 210 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: love to return again. But then there are so many 211 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: other places in Africa I'd also like to go to. 212 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: So that was a long and winding road. Yeah, but 213 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: you ended up initiated, so you can get close to 214 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: those maps exactly. I forgot to say thank you. So 215 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: so when I went back with Patricia in two thousand two, 216 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: the leaf Masks were performing in another town and I said, 217 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: but I thought they could only you could only you 218 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: know be They said, no, no, no, Doe speaks all languages. 219 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: Anyone can come with two dough with a sort of ask. Gotcha. 220 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: So I had just applied for the job at the 221 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: High Museum. So my ask was see here the position 222 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: at the Hi Museum as cur water of African art. 223 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: So in order to do that, I had to make 224 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: a sacrifice to dough and part of that involved than 225 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: the being the masquerade being performed. So oh, how wonderful. 226 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: The only thing I wasn't able to wear red and 227 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: I was I had a red dress. They said no 228 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: where red dress is allowed, but I could wear my 229 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: lipstick well being initiated. But I just love the idea 230 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: of the spirit of regeneration. I mean that I could that. 231 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: And someone asked me, are you a Christian? I said, 232 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: I have another faith and it's more based on nature 233 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: and the spirit of regeneration. I'm a child of dope. 234 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: Oh that's lovely. Um. I want to switch gears a 235 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: little bit because I have heard you talk before about 236 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: the importance of education, uh and how it combats some 237 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: of these long held and very problematic ideas that people 238 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: have about African art and some very racist stereotypes. So 239 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: could you uh talk a little bit about the gap 240 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: that exists between those ideas that were planted in the 241 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: nineteenth century that really do a great disservice to African 242 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: art and the actual reality and sort of why that 243 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: gap exists. Yeah, absolutely, thank you so much. It's so 244 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: important and that's really one of the reasons why I 245 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: am a friend of mine. You know, before I came 246 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: here said she saw an announcement about the position curator 247 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: of African Art at the High and she said, that 248 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: would be an interesting job be in Atlanta and be 249 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: responsible for, you know, conveying the importance of African art 250 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: to the people of the city, of the region, and 251 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: then even beyond. But I was I had friends visiting 252 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: just a couple of months ago and went over to 253 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: the Center for Human insul Rights and right there at 254 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: the entrance, if you still see those TVs from the fifties, 255 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: that very powerful display, various people talking my white men 256 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: talking about various things, and one of them, the man 257 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: is saying, you know, Africa, they were savages, and you 258 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: know they're best off here. You know, the people of 259 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: the South were better to them than anything they knew 260 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: before they came here. And like, uh oh no, not quite. 261 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: So one of the very deepest stereotypes about Africa is 262 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: that and this was um Hegel, the German philosopher, that 263 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: Africa has no history because it's the spoken word that 264 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: is so highly valued r and the oral tradition which 265 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: even comes through in hip hop to this day. So 266 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: the misperception that Africa has no history because their history 267 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: isn't written is totally wrong. And also there are Islamic 268 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: records going way back in time. The High just recently 269 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: acquired a Koran that is written from tim Buck two, 270 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: the place of great scholarship from the eleventh to the 271 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: sixteenth century, then declined because of the shift of this 272 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: trans Saharan trade to the transatlantic trade. But tim Buck 273 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: two was so so so important and so history in 274 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: Arabic but also history handed down by word of mouth. 275 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: The High has a work that was relatively recently acquired. 276 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: When we acquired it, we didn't know that it's full importance. 277 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: And this has become my favorite work in the collection. 278 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: And it's actually I wrote about it for the Museum's 279 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: High Life magazine that the museum, the magazine that sent 280 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: out to all members. It's a sculpture that comes from 281 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: the region of the ancient city of jenn A. Jenny 282 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: is like is a sister city to timbuck To. Jenna 283 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: is believed to be the oldest city in Sub Saharan Africa. 284 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: So that's the reason where this work comes from. Jen 285 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: A is a UNESCO. The entire city is a World 286 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: Heritage Site because of the great mosque, the earthen mosque 287 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: that's at the scale of Notre Dame, and there's you 288 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: can go online. You can find wonderful videos, even in 289 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: New York Times video that talks about the importance of 290 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: this city. So that mosque is made out of red clay, 291 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: just like the terra cotta sculpture that we have in 292 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: the collection. Recently, we collaborated with Grady Hospital and we 293 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: took the sculpture over to Grady and did a CT 294 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: scan and then after that we sent small samples to 295 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: a lab at at Oxford and England. And we needed 296 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: needed to do that because a couple of European colleagues 297 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: of mine we're working on an article and they wanted 298 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: to include the high sculpture, but they would not include 299 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: it until we provided the CT scan and the t 300 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: L test to verify its authenticity. We did that. We 301 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: also got beautiful three D images of the work and grady, 302 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: it was so fun and I should shout out give 303 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: a shout out to my colleagues there Dr Malco and 304 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: Dr Fontaine. But facilitated by renee Stein, the object conservator 305 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: over at Emery and at the Carlos. Together we did 306 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: this CT scanning and that then we provided that information 307 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: to these two scholars. But this the TL test told 308 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: us that the work was created sometime between twelve fifteen 309 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: and fifteen fifteen, at the height of the Empire of Mali, 310 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: which was the West African empire that spread all the 311 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: way to the Atlantic and even as far in inland 312 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: as Burkina and Niger than one of the greatest empires 313 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: of that time, so founded by Sunjata. The Epic of 314 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: Sunjata is that the oral history that was only written 315 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: down relatively recently by a scholar from Guinea. And you 316 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: can read the Epic of Sunjata. When I taught at 317 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: City College in Harlem, it was required reading for all 318 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: press freshmen as world literature. That was the one that 319 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: was at the top of the list for Africa. Anyway, 320 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: the sculpture. Back to the sculpture, it's a fragment. But 321 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: it's an extraordinarily it's an extraordinary work that it's a 322 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: female torso wrapped in snakes, but it looks like a 323 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: dancing figure. It has so much movement, which is quite 324 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: unusual for an African sculpture. Another feature of the sculpture 325 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: that I always wondered about that there's it looks almost 326 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: like a mountain range of running vertically between the breasts, 327 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: and it's so anatomically incorrect. I thought, what is this? 328 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: So these two scholars have assembled a whole group of 329 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: works that are portraits of Soga Long so Go long 330 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: a s O g O l O and so Long 331 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: so Long was the mother of sun Jatta. A right, 332 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: we have a portrait of sin mother of sun Jata, 333 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: founder of the Mali Empire. And we know this because 334 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: that little projection between her breasts. There are other sculptures 335 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: that didn't share that same feature. And in the oral 336 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: history she went so she was a real woman. She 337 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: gave birth to Sungata. She became a mythical personality, and 338 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: one of her abilities was to shoot porson poison tipped 339 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: porcupine quills from her chest. Can do that, right? I 340 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: mean that acquire able skill exactly, and she also could 341 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: be exproud horns and become a buffalo woman. And you 342 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: can actually see her turn into a buffalo woman as 343 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: she comes out of a tree trunk in the future 344 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: film called cat Heritage of a Grio it is. We 345 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: just did an episode slightly different about Great Zimbabwe and 346 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: how that had been believed for a long time to 347 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: have been built by some other culture that exactly, no, no, no, 348 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: was not attributed to the people that actually built and 349 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: lived there for a long time. I'd love to go there. 350 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: It's on my bucket list, along with Labella and so 351 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 1: many other places. Perfect. We are next going to talk 352 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: about kind of how the layman can get they're in 353 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: into African art history. But first we're going to pause 354 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: and have a word from one of our fantastic sponsors. 355 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: So jumping back in, there are so many different styles 356 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: of art in African history, and I know for someone 357 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: who is not particularly familiar with it, it can be 358 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: a little overwhelming. So where do you start to educate 359 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: someone who's interested in African art art history but just 360 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: doesn't know where to begin. Come to the High Museum. 361 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: Not everybody's in Atlanta, because at the website. Yeah, or 362 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: go to any museum that has African art and look 363 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: at the collection and just go towards whatever draws you 364 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: in and then find out more about whatever that is 365 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: and then start from there. Just find your moment. Yeah, 366 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: you could even go to the Atlanta Airport and visit 367 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: it there love actually quite lovely sculpture collection. You could 368 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: or you could go. There's going to be an exhibition. 369 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: Can I give a plug to Savannah College of Art 370 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: in February is going to present the work of a 371 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: young artist named Omar Victor Diop And he's from Deaker 372 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: but moves around in the world, often in Paris. He'll 373 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: be here in Atlanta, which is extraordinary. And he has 374 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: done a whole series called it's called the Project Diaspora, 375 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: and he he their portraits self portraits, but he presents 376 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: himself as a historic figure. Oh I love it, but 377 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: with some like a soccer ball or something just to 378 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: disrupt that image. And I'm going to just read for 379 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: a moment about one of his works that I particularly love. 380 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: It's u portrait of a Prince from the Kingdom of 381 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: the Congo, which is well represent entered in the highest 382 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: collection Congo Art Congo with a k. You might remember 383 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: the Congo across the water show that was at the 384 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: Carter Center a couple of years ago. It was beautiful, amazing, amazing. Anyway, 385 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: this prince from the Kingdom of the Congo. So was 386 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: perhaps one of the earliest African leaders who wrote publicly 387 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: to protest protest colonial influences. Nikolau protest protested against Portuguese 388 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: commercial and political activity and military expansion by publishing a 389 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: letter in a Portuguese newspaper in Lisbon. His exact birthday 390 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: remains uncertain. Contemporary engravings of the Nicholas rather during his 391 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: visit in Lisbon in five suggests that he was then 392 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: perhaps fifteen to twenty years of age. Anyway, it's a wonderful, 393 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: glorious portrait of this prince from the Kingdom of the Congo. 394 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: And you'll be able to see it at SCAD in February. 395 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: Oh that sounds excellent, So if you're in Atlanta, go 396 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: see it. If you're not, go to your ZM and 397 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: find that one thing that catches your eye where there's 398 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: also I've been looking at Art News Africa Instagram feed fabulous. 399 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: I haven't followed it, but I will now. Yeah, it's 400 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: wonderful and it's such a you can see such a 401 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: broad range of work there now as a curator, which 402 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: you have been doing for quite some time. Now, what 403 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: are the biggest challenges that you personally face when you're 404 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: developing a collection or an exhibit that focuses on African art? Money? 405 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: Money always you need a budget to buy art, and 406 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: I've done really well also getting gifts. I had a 407 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: very strong network. I have a very strong network of 408 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: collectors across the nation and even in Europe who have 409 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: made gifts to the High Museum. So I've been able 410 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: to build a respectable collection, not so much through purchases 411 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: but through gifts. But museums, not only the High Museum, 412 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: but even the Met I think especially bef us of 413 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: their recent expansion and all the cost of that. Museums 414 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: are always in need of benefactors, and in this day 415 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: and age, new benefactors, the next generation. So I hope 416 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, especially with Rand Suffolk in place as our 417 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,479 Speaker 1: new director, we're reaching out out to community communities across 418 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: Atlanta in a way that we have never never really 419 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: done so thoroughly and deeply before. Well hopefully, I mean 420 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: we all dream of world where like art is always 421 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: funded and endowments are always good, and my position is endowed. 422 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: I do have another special inditiative endowment that provides some 423 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: funds for acquisitions, but that endowment is established to help 424 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: the High established regional leadership in African art. Funds can 425 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: be used for exhibitions, acquisitions, travel and research programming. So 426 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: you can imagine the pressure on those limited funds. So more, 427 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: if anyone would like to and make an endowment and 428 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: have a legacy the um SO and SO African Art 429 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: Endowment at the High Museum, they can join Fred and 430 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: Rita as a nice uh. And you wrote a book 431 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: titled African Art Portfolio and illustrated introduction masterpieces from the 432 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: eleventh to the twentieth centuries, and it touches a lot 433 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: on the use of art as a means of spiritual 434 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: communication with ancestors. Can you talk a little bit about 435 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: that and the important role of spirituality in African art. So, 436 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: I actually meant to go back and look at that 437 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: book because it's been so long since I wrote that book. 438 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: It was when I was at the Center for African 439 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: Art in New York and I was in charge of 440 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: the education program. I started out in cure toil at 441 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: the Center for African Art when it was into adjacent 442 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: townhouses at sixty eight in Park. Then we moved and 443 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: moved to Soho and somewhere in that time between eight 444 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: seven and ninety six, I became the I was in 445 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: charge of the education department. Then I switched back to curatorial. 446 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: But I wrote that book when I was ahead of 447 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: the education department, and so it's a very introductory publication 448 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: based on works previously previously exhibited at the Center for 449 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: African Art. And you can see this band eleventh to 450 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. It's got to be But spirituality. One 451 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: of the shows that I worked in worked on and 452 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: that I'm sure is represented in that book was called 453 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: wild Spirits, Strong Medicine, African Art and the Wilderness. And 454 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: in terms of spirit spirituality in Africa, it's not just 455 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: one thing. It takes so many different forms. And that 456 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: Instagram feed I was just looking at it recently. There 457 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: was there was there's a fantastic little short video clip 458 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: of a cloth masquerade performing. It's a it's a made 459 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: out of cloth and when the dancer moves, it turns 460 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: into this big circle that like Spy World, moves all 461 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: across the dance space. And it's a festival that takes 462 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: place in Benin to this day, and it just took 463 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: place January ten, so I wish I had been there. 464 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: But and it's to honor ancestral spirits through cloth masquerade performance. 465 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: No museum does have on view and agung Cloth Masquerade 466 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: and the Gunging Masquerade Association it's a men's masquerade association 467 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: that honors ancestral spirits through cloth masquerade performance. So that's 468 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: just one example. But Wild Spirits Strong Medicine included a 469 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: whole entourage of masks from Burkina Fosso that are conceived 470 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: in part to harness the power of nature spirits to 471 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: the benefit of humankind. Lovely um. The other thing that 472 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: I want to talk about, and you kind of gave 473 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: me a nice intro at the very top, is a 474 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: little bit about the way African art, as she said, 475 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, there's we sort of all come from there, 476 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: but we don't really think about how much African art 477 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: has really influenced global arts. Can you talk a little 478 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: bit about that? Absolutely, And of course everyone thinks of 479 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: Picasso first off, and we do have a wonderful mask 480 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: in the High Museum's collection. It's a recent acquisition, relatively 481 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: recent acquisition. It's made possible through the collector's Evening initiative. 482 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: It's a mask from the Penday region of Democratic Republic 483 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: of the Congo. Pende masquerade continues to the present. This 484 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: mask was probably created during the thirties, and it has 485 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: an extraordinarily distorted face that is black on one side 486 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: and white on the other, and so it's a very 487 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: abstract kind of work. And the famous famous exhibition that 488 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: was at the Museum of Modern Art and then I 489 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: think eighty four Primitivism. You might have the two volume 490 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: catalog in its common in many libraries because it was 491 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: a landmark exhibition and there's an image of this this 492 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:04,719 Speaker 1: very mask, and they the author I remember, there were 493 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: so many different authors, but I think it's in the 494 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: chapter that William Ruben, the curator wrote about cites this 495 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: Pende mask as a source of inspiration to Picasso's Les 496 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: demoise l d'Avignon. But then another scholars stays, no, Pende 497 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: masks weren't yet in the these lum at that time, 498 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: and it was Picasso. There's famous quotes about from Coso 499 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,719 Speaker 1: Picasso talking about his visit to these lam and he 500 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: was so so, so so struck by the African art 501 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: that he saw, and that was something that led to 502 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: Lay Demoiselle. But of course that's just that's early twentieth century. There. 503 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: I think I've become more and more interested in African 504 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: art and late and early twentieth century artists. When I 505 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: was in New York, I was particularly drawn to work 506 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: created by David Hammonds, and one of the works I 507 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: think was actually e inspired in part by an image 508 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: from my book The African Art Portfolio. It's one of 509 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: my favorite masks in the world. It's a mask gelida. 510 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: Mask Galada, like a gong, is a Yorba men's masquerade tradition, 511 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: but it is for the ancestors to honor the ancestral spirits. 512 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: A um gellida is to honor women. So there's image 513 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: of what I think is the most beautiful gelida in 514 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: the world that I had hoped to acquire for the 515 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: high but when it's sold at auction, the estimate was 516 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: I think one fifty fifty thousand. It went for much 517 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: more than that. I couldn't have even reached that mark 518 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: just pin money, and I think it's actually going to 519 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: be somewhere in Qatar. Finished one of those museums. Glorious, 520 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: sublime work of art. But David Hammond's roughly at the 521 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: time that my portfolio was published, and I shared that 522 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: book with him, he created a work called Freudian Slip. 523 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: And he comes from a family, he had had six sisters, 524 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: and he put a woman slip, one of those old 525 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: fashioned slips with the little pleated skirt sort of translucent pink. 526 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: He put a Gallada mask that he found, I think 527 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: at the time it was Chelsea Market was telling, you know, 528 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: sort of replica objects. So he got a Galladay mask 529 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: and he put it under the slip of the skirt 530 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: in this slip, and he called it Freudian Slip. And 531 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: to me it's just one of the most extraordinary works. 532 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: But you know, we already mentioned Nick Cave. There are 533 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: so many artists, but even young, young artists in Africa today, 534 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: in cities all across the continent. They're creating work that 535 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: does I mean sometimes not at all. Sometimes they're more 536 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: engaged by other ways of making art, but sometimes they do. 537 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: Like Omar Vic Grdop, he's referring to the bast past 538 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: while he creates temporary work. And I imagine there are 539 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: a lot of artists that don't even realize that the 540 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: influence has trickled down to them and their work, not 541 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: just in Africa, but throughout the globe. We just had 542 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: a visitor, a student who's finishing her PhD at Berkeley, 543 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: writing about the work of Howard, Dean and Pendell. And 544 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: she's an artist whose work is represented in the Highest Collection. 545 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: She had a show at Spellman and spoke recently. But 546 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: I I was just with this visitor looking at one 547 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: of her dot paintings that is in the Highest Collection. 548 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: It's a small work. It looks like an abstract, sort 549 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: of minimalist color field work. She took paper, punched circles 550 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: and in a very careful way sort of sprinkled them 551 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: and secured them. So it's it's a it's a work 552 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: on paper, but three dimensional, absolutely amazing. And she talks 553 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: about one of the sources of inspiration for that work 554 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: was African bead work. So it's not only mask but 555 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: you can find so many, so many different ways to 556 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: approach African art and being inspired by it. I love it. Uh, 557 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: we are gonna once again, pause for a brief word 558 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: from a sponsor before we come back and finish our 559 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: chat with Carol. So hang in, we'll be right back 560 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: with you, okay. So one thing that I had to 561 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: wonder because I think when their areas that maybe people 562 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: don't always know about, there's always a moment, like a 563 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: light bulb moment or a moment of surprise. So what 564 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: do you find surprises people the most when they start 565 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: to really learn about the very rich and broad spectrum 566 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: of African art and its history. You know, I think 567 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: that's something that artists like Ellen not swe have achieved 568 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: in a way that is most remarkable. It's The High 569 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: has one of his sometimes referred to as metalcloth sculptures, 570 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,919 Speaker 1: and it's on view in the African Art Gallery. When 571 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: we first acquired it, it was presented on the Skyway 572 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: Gallery of Contemporary Art, which is what he would prefer. 573 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: But when people see that work, if you've never seen 574 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: a work by Ellen not Sue, it's kind of like 575 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: a magnet. It just draws people in and they wonder, 576 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: you know, how is this made? It's so extraordinary and 577 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: he's become now the High acquired the magnificent work that 578 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: we have by l before. He's skyrocketed to international art stardom. 579 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: So now his work is everywhere and just very widely known. 580 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: But for people who have never seen it. When you 581 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: see a work by Ellen at SWI for the first time, 582 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: it's it's one of those moments of awe. Yeah, is 583 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,959 Speaker 1: that it Usually people just become odd when they realize 584 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: what's there to be explored and discovered. Yeah, and the 585 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: accomplishment of it, because it's so ingenious, so simple, and 586 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 1: it's there. You know, he's been on an Art twenty one. 587 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: You can just google L E L short for Emmanuel Anatsui. 588 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: I won't spell the name, but you can find it 589 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: and put it in show now, okay. And he has 590 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: a whole workshop of assistants working with him now and 591 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 1: they produced He prefers to make really large works. And 592 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: at the Venice B and L. The same year that, 593 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: the year after the High acquired the work that we have, 594 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: he had a gigantic metal cloth sculpture on the facade 595 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: of the Fortuny Palace. But he's done equally as large 596 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 1: scale works at various as on the facades of various 597 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: museums in London, Berlin and that's he likes to create 598 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: the gigantic works because they even convey a greater sense 599 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: of movement than the more small scale work that we 600 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: have in the highest collection. But they and that's for 601 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: him almost a metaphor of metaphor for sort of how 602 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: all human being sort of long for a sense of 603 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: freedom and mobility. He never wants to work to look 604 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: like it's pinned down. That it should convey convey a 605 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: sense of movement. It's the universal right. And you kind 606 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: of touched on this when you did your sneaky jump 607 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: around earlier. But if there were one thing that you 608 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: just wish that everybody could magically know and understand about 609 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: African art and its history, what would it be That 610 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: it's not only for yeah, people of African ancestry or 611 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: for African people, it's it's a to me African art. 612 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: And this is maybe I think about when I was 613 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: a small child living in Minnesota, and I would go 614 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: bicycling bicycling with my friends and brother and sister and cousins, 615 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: and we would bicycle to this little farm where there 616 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: was a well and it was really cool, delicious fresh water. 617 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: And to me, African art is like a it was 618 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: a fresh it was a spring. It's a well that 619 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,919 Speaker 1: will you'll never make it to the end, so it's 620 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: never boring. There's always something new to learn, because of 621 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: course Africa is such a gigantic continent with such a 622 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: rich history and so many diverse artistic traditions, and it's 623 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: open for all. I love it. That's so beautiful. And 624 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: I'm warning you now of the danger that I will 625 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: just be lurking at the High looking for you at 626 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: all times. Carol, thank you so much for spending time 627 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: with us. We're so spoiled. Thank you, Holly, Oh, it's 628 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,879 Speaker 1: such a delight. We will include in our show notes 629 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: all of the information about UH, the incredible collection that 630 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,359 Speaker 1: Carol has put together at the High Museum of Art, 631 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: as well as some of the key points she hit 632 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: on in her answers and discussion UH, and then we 633 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: will wrap up with a bit of listener mail. I 634 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: so love and was terribly charmed by her comparison of 635 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: African art to a never ending well of refreshing spring water. 636 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,439 Speaker 1: Thank you so much again to Carol for sharing her 637 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: story and her knowledge with us. We'll have links in 638 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: the show notes to the Highest Collection as well as 639 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: the Instagram account that she mentioned in the interview. Yeah, 640 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: she was just lovely and I she very sweetly when 641 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: we had wrapped and said, oh, you should come down 642 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: any time. And I was like, Carol, this is like 643 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: feeding a stray cat. I will just show up at 644 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: the museum daily and be like, Hi, would you like 645 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 1: to spend time with me and tell me about everything 646 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: in the collection. Uh. She was wonderful and terribly gracious. 647 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh. And now 648 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: I have some fun listener mail, and I'll keep it 649 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,439 Speaker 1: short because that interview is a little lengthy. Uh. This 650 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: is all from our listener Hannah, who has been traveling 651 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: in Scotland, and she very sweetly sent us four postcards. Uh. 652 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: One is Sterling Castle, which is a lovely picture. Another 653 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: is Dune Castle, which is where Money Python filmed bits 654 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: of Holy Grail. Uh. And this lovely then Uh she 655 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,800 Speaker 1: sent a really lovely picture of a Highland address suit, 656 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: which she said, in all honesty, this just seemed like 657 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: the most Scottish possible image to send Holly, which is accurate. 658 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: And the last one was really really cool. She writes. 659 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,280 Speaker 1: These are some of the tiny dolls and coffins found 660 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: by schoolboys at Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh. No one is 661 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: sure who made them or why they exist. My favorite 662 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: theory is that they were made to provide earthly bodies 663 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: for the seventeen victims of William Burg and William Hair. 664 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: So thank you so much, Hannah for all of these 665 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: beautiful postcards. Again, I know I always say it, I'm 666 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: saying it again. I'm always so honored that people would 667 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: take time out of their vacations to think of us. 668 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: So I cannot appreciate our listeners more. And when you 669 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: do that, it, uh, it's very touching. So if you 670 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: would like to write to us, you can do so 671 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: at History Podcast. At how stuff works dot com, you 672 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: can find us across the spectrum of social media as 673 00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: missed in History, which means Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Tumbler, Pinterest. Uh. 674 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: Come and see all of our social things. We will 675 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: chat with you. You You can also visit our parents site, 676 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: which is how stuff Works dot com. You can look 677 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 1: up Arn't there, but you could look up almost anything 678 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: else you could think of and many many results will 679 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: come to you with lots and lots of information. You 680 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: can also visit us at missed in history dot com, 681 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: where we have a complete archive of every episode of 682 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: the show that has ever existed, as well as show 683 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: notes on any of the episodes Tracy and I have 684 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 1: worked on. So we hope you come in and indulge 685 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: in all of these things and visit us at missed 686 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: in history dot com and how stuff Works dot com 687 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics, because 688 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot Com.