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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe Wisenthal.

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Speaker 2: Joe, do you remember earlier this year there was a

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Speaker 2: moment when everyone got really excited about Europe for the

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Speaker 2: first time in probably decades.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, I always think about is for the

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Speaker 3: two of us for a long time of our careers.

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Speaker 3: One of the many sub themes that we go it's like,

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Speaker 3: when is the Europe going to turn on the fiscal taps?

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Speaker 3: When did you start spending money in Germany? All these questions,

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Speaker 3: when are they going to be less so focus on

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Speaker 3: austerity or balanced budgets, et cetera. And then finally, and

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Speaker 3: maybe Trump had something to do with it, and defense

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Speaker 3: spending had something to do with it, or politics, it's

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Speaker 3: finally we're getting spending. It was like five minutes and

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Speaker 3: everyone was really excited about some of the defense docks

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Speaker 3: and the Euro's raillying and it looked, you know, a

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Speaker 3: little bit more politically stable perhaps than the US. What's happening, though,

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Speaker 3: I like, how's that going? I'm not sure I followed

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Speaker 3: it as closely as I should.

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Speaker 2: Have I will say, I mean, the Europe is still

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Speaker 2: pretty strong against the dollar, and if you look at

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Speaker 2: the eurostocks that's still doing pretty well as well. So

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Speaker 2: there is some optimism that is still circulating the market.

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Speaker 2: But you're absolutely right, we should talk about what this means.

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Speaker 2: What does it actually mean for Europe to quote unquote

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Speaker 2: seize this moment, right, this very particular moment, and what

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Speaker 2: exactly does Europe want to achieve totally.

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Speaker 3: And you know, a lot of the conversations that we

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Speaker 3: have in the US context certainly apply in the European context.

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Speaker 3: So industrial competition with China, whatever we're feeling here in

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Speaker 3: the US, certainly very heightened anxiety in Europe with the

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Speaker 3: stress on the auto industry and the chemicals industry and

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Speaker 3: so forth. Energy prices, obviously, electricity costs in the US

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Speaker 3: becoming a major topic, et cetera, just as big in Europe,

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Speaker 3: if not big or especially in the wake of the

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Speaker 3: Ukraine War, the shutting off of the nuclear power plants

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Speaker 3: in some countries, et cetera. So pretty much everything that

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Speaker 3: we're sort of wrestling with here, the right.

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Speaker 2: The sort of productivity regulation.

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Speaker 3: The splintering of the traditional parties within domestic politics. Our

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Speaker 3: parties have a bit more of a monopoly than the

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Speaker 3: European ones do, but there's similar stresses going on. So

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Speaker 3: anything that we're talking about here, it's very useful to

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Speaker 3: see how it comes across from the European line.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, so I'm very happy to say we do, in

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Speaker 2: fact have the perfect guest we're going to be speaking

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Speaker 2: with Aliren. He is, of course the governor of the

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Speaker 2: Bank of Finland. He is also a governing council member

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Speaker 2: over at the ECB. So Ollie, thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for coming on our thoughts.

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Speaker 4: Thanks very much for the newittation. Great to be here.

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Speaker 2: So from your seat in Europe, Wait, where are you

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Speaker 2: actually based in Europe? Where do you spend most of

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Speaker 2: your time?

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Speaker 4: I have a do on life, not schizophrenic, do a life.

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Speaker 4: I have two home fields, two home terrans. One is

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Speaker 4: Hesink Finland. The Bank of Finland is the Central Bank

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Speaker 4: of Finland. But we also at the same time we

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Speaker 4: are member a member of the Eurosystem and my second

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Speaker 4: home terranist Frankfurt and the Governing Council of the ECB.

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Speaker 4: And the same goes for the large part of our

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Speaker 4: civil servants. Economis and lawyers at the Bank of Finland

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Speaker 4: like in the other nineteen national central banks. That's the

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Speaker 4: eurosystem perfect.

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Speaker 2: So from your seat in Helsinki and Frankfurt, does it

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Speaker 2: feel like something's changed within Europe? Does it feel like

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Speaker 2: there is the sense that maybe the current time period

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Speaker 2: is some sort of opportunity.

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Speaker 4: Certainly things have changed in Europe a lot for the

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Speaker 4: verses we know because of Russia's unjustified brutal war in Ukraine,

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Speaker 4: but second as a wake up to that situation, including

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Speaker 4: the impact of President Trump as well. And I would

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Speaker 4: say that if you look at the Europe for the moment,

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Speaker 4: we have one issue which is above others, and that

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Speaker 4: is common defense and spending on common defense, from air

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Speaker 4: defenses to drone production and other elements of military technology

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Speaker 4: and production. And that's also very much an economic issue. Actually,

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Speaker 4: it's a finest opportunity in a sense that the best

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Speaker 4: argument for safe assets in Europe is in the defense spending.

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Speaker 4: We need both national and European funding. This is, in

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Speaker 4: my view, a possibility to pave the way for a

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Speaker 4: deep and liquid European capital market.

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Speaker 3: That's great, I'm glad you jump right into this question

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Speaker 3: of further integration and some of the stakes here, particularly

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Speaker 3: as it relates to defense, because this has been something

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Speaker 3: that's been on my mind a lot, and I wanted

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Speaker 3: to get in with you. When we think about industrial

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Speaker 3: capacity or think about industrial competition, scale is really important.

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Speaker 3: The size of the market is very important, and this

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Speaker 3: is part of the whole premise of the euro Area,

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Speaker 3: which is, let's have an integrated market. And yet, on

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Speaker 3: the other hand, domestic politics are still a thing I

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Speaker 3: have to imagine in defense specifically, there must be a

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Speaker 3: lot of anxiety at each individual country. Do we want

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Speaker 3: our national maker of X rolled up into some larger

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Speaker 3: conglomerate to what degree, whether we're talking about defense or

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Speaker 3: other any other industrial any other industrial sector, does there

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Speaker 3: still remain attention between the scale required for competitiveness and

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Speaker 3: the desire for some sovereignty within each country to have

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Speaker 3: their maker of X or y.

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Speaker 4: Yes, there is that tenstone. But that's why we do,

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Speaker 4: we make policy, and that's why we try to change

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Speaker 4: things in Europe. Actually, that brings to my mind an

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Speaker 4: anecdote concerning precisely common defense. How things have changed. Okay,

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Speaker 4: the country I know best, Finland in NATO in April

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, and I recall my own time in

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Speaker 4: military service in the early nineteen eighties in the SUBBA

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Speaker 4: Brigade in eastern Finland, in the city which used to

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Speaker 4: be the headquarters of US and manner Him during the

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Speaker 4: Winter War. Today that garrison area is actually a regional

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Speaker 4: sub headquarters of NATO. So you see the change in

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Speaker 4: terms of defense in dissic caard in northern Europe. Talking

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Speaker 4: about economies of scale, yes, we lack a genuine single

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Speaker 4: market in many areas like services and to some extent capital,

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Speaker 4: and that's why we are very committed to move forward with,

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Speaker 4: for instance, the Savings an Investment Union, which aims at

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Speaker 4: transforming the formidable savings of Europeans ten trillion. That's the

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Speaker 4: estimate to productive investment by some kind of say popular capitalism. That's,

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Speaker 4: in my view, one essential element of creating a more

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Speaker 4: unified Europe and creating a more competitive Europe.

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Speaker 2: The other thing, when it comes to building up a

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Speaker 2: fence industry that is sometimes debated is this idea of

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Speaker 2: should you spend money on investing in defense programs or

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Speaker 2: should you spend money, you know, buying the products that

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Speaker 2: these defense companies are actually producing because what's the point

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Speaker 2: of building out this massive capacity if you don't have

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Speaker 2: a dependable customer for the foreseeable future. How would you

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Speaker 2: structure that sort of spending to make sure that it's durable,

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Speaker 2: I guess and effective.

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Speaker 4: That's a very critical question in the European context, and

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Speaker 4: that's why as we are conducting joint European funding exercises

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Speaker 4: in this like the one hundred and fifty billion euro

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Speaker 4: Safe Instrument by the European Commission, it's a sense that

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Speaker 4: we purchase those arms and arms technologies by common procurement

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Speaker 4: and by investing in joint research and innovation projects. That's

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Speaker 4: the way to get more bank for the euro and

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Speaker 4: that's now the effort which the European countries and the

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Speaker 4: Commission are engaged with. In fact, it is clear, it's

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Speaker 4: quite clear that we are going to in Europe. We

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Speaker 4: are going to purchase both say domestic European products and

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Speaker 4: also American products. In some areas the US is more advanced.

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Speaker 4: For instance, Finland is purchasing sixty four if thirty five

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Speaker 4: to replace our existing fleet of sixty four eighteens which

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Speaker 4: date from the early nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 3: How costly is it I guess, to put it bluntly,

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Speaker 3: I don't know that the US is not the reliable

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Speaker 3: trading partner it might have seemed to be. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I know there's still a lot of trading you just mentioned,

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Speaker 3: you know, replaced the plain fleet, et cetera. But clearly

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Speaker 3: we all read the news, we all know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: How costly is it for Europe? And do you perceive

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Speaker 3: there to be a lot of frankly unnecessary duplications of

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Speaker 3: investment efforts across the Atlantic currently because of trade tensions.

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Speaker 4: We do expect that, and that's having a negative impact

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Speaker 4: on productivity and thus on the economy, growth and well being.

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Speaker 4: As far as the impact of US tariffics is concerned,

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Speaker 4: we have tried to estimate that. It's a bit difficult,

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Speaker 4: as policy making is fairly volatile, so it depends on

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Speaker 4: the day or the week when you take the cutoff data.

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Speaker 4: You know that perhaps, But our estimate, which is roughly

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Speaker 4: done on the basis of the current US study PHRASEM,

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Speaker 4: is that it will hit growth in the Eurozone roughly

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Speaker 4: by half a percent its point next year. But the

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Speaker 4: good news is that the European economy is actually demonstrating resilience.

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Speaker 4: We are still growing this year, probably around one person

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Speaker 4: or so one point two percent, and we are projective

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Speaker 4: to grow by one point three percent in the next

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Speaker 4: two years despite the headwinds of geopolitical tensions and thirty

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Speaker 4: for wars.

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Speaker 2: So you wrote something for Vox a few months ago

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Speaker 2: called Europe must not Waste its currency moment, and you know,

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Speaker 2: reading it, it sounds very much like there's perhaps an

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Speaker 2: ambition to maybe replace some of the influencer, some of

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Speaker 2: the global role of currently fulfilled by the US and

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Speaker 2: the dollar with the Euro. Is that how we should

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Speaker 2: be reading it? Is there like a conscious effort underway

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Speaker 2: currently to expand the Euro's influence in the world.

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Speaker 4: There is a deliberate, conscious effort to enhance the Euro's

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Speaker 4: global role in the currently changing international monetary system. And

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Speaker 4: if I put the background first, I think you're seeing

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Speaker 4: the interestional monetary system or the global financial system in

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Speaker 4: transformation for the moment, and you have two main drivers

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Speaker 4: in broad sense. On one hand, the geopolitical confrontation and

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Speaker 4: on the other hand, we have a technological disruption thanks

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Speaker 4: to digital assets, stable coins, central bank digital currencies. How

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Speaker 4: this will play out will be quite crucial as to

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Speaker 4: the evolution of the monetary system. Concerning the geopolitical competition,

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Speaker 4: we see China's efforts to strengthen the role of remimbiod

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Speaker 4: or the yuan, for instance, with the rodent built initiative

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Speaker 4: and linking trade agreements to an enhanced roll of the yuan.

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Speaker 4: And there is a major but there are still capital

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Speaker 4: controls in China, and there is no legal certainty in

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Speaker 4: China in the western sense, so that creates quite significant

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Speaker 4: limitations for the Remember, in the technological site, we've seen

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Speaker 4: the growth of stable coins. More recently, we've seen certain

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Speaker 4: volatility of cryptos last week, classified days just a little yes,

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Speaker 4: And for instance stable coins, they are clearly intended to

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Speaker 4: increase demand for US treasuries to feel the federal deficit

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Speaker 4: of the United States of America and thus to enhance

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Speaker 4: the roll of US dollar and US dollar dominance. I

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Speaker 4: believe that on the basis of historical experience, let's say,

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Speaker 4: for instance, by the writings of Professor Barry ahen Green

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Speaker 4: of the Berkeley that historical shifts in the international monitary

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Speaker 4: system take place slowly and on the basis of the

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Speaker 4: structural chances in the economy and security structures. That's why

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Speaker 4: I believe that US dollar dominance will prevail for quite long,

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Speaker 4: perhaps less as a single unipolar hegemon in the monetary

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Speaker 4: system than before, and we may move towards a more

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Speaker 4: multipolar monetary system and their Europe can have a significant

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Speaker 4: reserve on the condition that we can strengthen the foundations

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Speaker 4: of the European economy in security, in terms of economic dynamic.

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Speaker 4: In terms of.

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Speaker 3: When it comes to economic dynamism, people are pretty pessimistic

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Speaker 3: about Europe these days. They look at an industrial sector

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Speaker 3: that is maybe being hobbled by a competition with China.

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Speaker 3: They see the country, the various countries is not being

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Speaker 3: at the forefront of the AI investments with tech in general,

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Speaker 3: there's a perception that the economies are still overregulated, it's

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Speaker 3: not a great place to have a startup and so forth.

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Speaker 3: What is the sort of the Bowld case or maybe

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Speaker 3: the sales pitch for sort of the euro inc the

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Speaker 3: European economy, where does growth come from in the dynamic

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Speaker 3: durable manner.

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Speaker 4: There is a Wybrant stop community for instance in Finland.

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Speaker 3: Finland is actually Finland's probably the exception you do hear

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Speaker 3: about finished startups speed credit.

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Speaker 4: In France, many other We actually we have a vibrant

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Speaker 4: startup community in Europe. By the way, welcome to Slush,

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Speaker 4: even though I'm not the organizer, but Slush is the

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Speaker 4: well known major conference in inheriting Ky.

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Speaker 3: We love to come to November. Introduce us next the

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Speaker 3: major we love to come.

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Speaker 4: That's the major startup that found great global startup even

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Speaker 4: since early twenty tens. Okay, it's good to know the

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Speaker 4: name Slush comes from November because you have so much

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Speaker 4: slash in November. So that's why it's for slush. But

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Speaker 4: it's a very bright event in the darkest.

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Speaker 3: Why it goes into the saunas the rest of the

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Speaker 3: time to get out of the slush.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well I do it twelve months per year, a

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Speaker 4: few times per week.

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Speaker 3: Sounds great, not bad, not bad.

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Speaker 4: But even more seriously so, we have startups, We have

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Speaker 4: some unicorns. But the general challenge in Europe is that

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Speaker 4: in the scale up phase, many companies choose the US

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Speaker 4: a Silicon Valley or or New York Stock Exchange or

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Speaker 4: combination of both, because it's easier to get winsor capital.

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Speaker 4: You have a large market which is culturally fairly similar,

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Speaker 4: even though there are certain differences between California and think

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Speaker 4: California and yeah, say South Carolina, right, yes, Okay, So

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Speaker 4: in any case, it's the scale of phase and internationalization

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Speaker 4: phase where we have to do better. And that's why,

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Speaker 4: for instance, our government's efforts to enhance growth in Finland

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Speaker 4: are films focused on funding of scale ups and growth companies.

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Speaker 2: So when I think about a business being competitive, especially

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Speaker 2: in the areas that people seem to be very excited

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Speaker 2: about nowadays, things like AI data centers, I guess defense nowadays,

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Speaker 2: I think about one aspect of competitiveness is price right,

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Speaker 2: and if your input costs are higher than a lot

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Speaker 2: of other people, then you're going to struggle to provide

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Speaker 2: these things at a low cost. And in Europe the

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Speaker 2: big input cost that people seem to struggle with is energy. Right,

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Speaker 2: How in the world does Europe start to compete in

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Speaker 2: terms of global competitiveness with energy prices so high? And

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Speaker 2: what can you do about it?

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Speaker 4: We have to go back. I have to go back

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Speaker 4: to Finland metaphysically, mentally now again because we have an

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Speaker 4: x number of data center investments coming in Finland, mostly

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Speaker 4: with foreign direct investment thanks to the combination of relatively

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Speaker 4: inexpensive electricity and relatively cool climate, which is conducive for

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Speaker 4: data centers. So in that sense, there are differences within

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Speaker 4: Europe as well. The key is very much to continue

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Speaker 4: the green transition with consistency. For the moment, still, countries

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Speaker 4: like Germany are suffering from higher electricity and energy costs.

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Speaker 4: That is true largely because Germany was so dependent on

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Speaker 4: Russian fossil fuel, especially because its energy intensive chemical and

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Speaker 4: other industries who have been so dependent. But the green

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Speaker 4: transition is moving forward. We lean much more on renewable

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Speaker 4: energy than before. Of course, energy efficiency and smart electricity

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Speaker 4: systems play also a key role here, and I would

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Speaker 4: expect that this green transition will be I mean not concluded,

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Speaker 4: but will be very far by the end of this decade,

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Speaker 4: so that we have a much more competitive condition in Europe.

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Speaker 4: In this card, I had one thing. Often, when you

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Speaker 4: compare fossil energy and you compare you compare fossil energy

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Speaker 4: to say, renewable energy. The capital costs in renewables are

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Speaker 4: often higher, like say investing in wind parks or solo energy,

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Speaker 4: but the running costs are quite low. Meanwhile, in fossil

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Speaker 4: fuels it's often let's say the reverse, or that the

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Speaker 4: capital costs sign not that's huge, but you have very

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Speaker 4: significant running costs. So once you are far enough in

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Speaker 4: the green transistion preferably supplemented by nuclear enocy in my view,

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Speaker 4: than our cost competitiveness in terms of energy will also

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Speaker 4: be what's better.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like the solution to some of what l's

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Speaker 3: Europe is that everyone needs to be more like Finland.

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Speaker 3: Sounds like you guys haven't figured out and everyone else

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Speaker 3: in Europe needs to be more like that.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 3: For really, when it comes to broad like like industrial pressure,

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Speaker 3: can you like attribute and maybe this is more of

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Speaker 3: a German specific question, but I think it probably applies

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Speaker 3: more broadly. Is it possible to decompose the degree to

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Speaker 3: which competition with China, especially things like chemicals. China's very

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Speaker 3: competitive chemicals, though it doesn't get much attention obviously, cars

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Speaker 3: globally is just a huge story when you look at

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Speaker 3: like sort of the sputtering out of industrial production in

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Speaker 3: Germany or just you'ree More broadly, it's possible to decompose

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Speaker 3: how much of it is undercutting on price from China

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Speaker 3: versus the higher costs that have surged particularly since early

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 4: Wells, it is possible, but I don't have the figures

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Speaker 4: of the cuff. But I recall that in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 4: which was the high point of energy costs in Europe,

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Speaker 4: So we calculated with a friend of mine, and then

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Speaker 4: we verified that by our economists that year Europe paid

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Speaker 4: eight hundred billion euros for fossil fuels instead of the

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Speaker 4: long term average of three hundred So we paid five

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Speaker 4: hundred six hundred billion euros more that year, which then

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Speaker 4: was roughly three percent of CDP. So in twenty two

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Speaker 4: we had you can say that it was kind of

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Speaker 4: an extra tax over every European of three percent of

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Speaker 4: the income on average, which of course created quite a

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Speaker 4: lot of popular opposition and criticism. Fortunately we have been

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Speaker 4: it's not actually about fortunate, it's about political will and action.

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Speaker 4: We have been able to broadly adds to the end

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Speaker 4: of Russian gas in Europe, but we still have some

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Speaker 4: work to do in many countries. You mentioned Germany. Germany

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Speaker 4: still has a work to do in order to reduce

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Speaker 4: its en itsy costs in its industrial production.

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Speaker 2: If you could waive a magic wand and do one

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Speaker 2: thing to boost European either productiveness, productivity or competitiveness. Basically

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Speaker 2: make all of Europe more like Finland. What would it

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Speaker 2: be other than installing saunas and everyone's house that's a

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Speaker 2: good idea actually even though fairly electricity.

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Speaker 3: Let's not hope it would be energy.

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Speaker 4: Depending depending if you use electricity or would in heating.

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Speaker 4: I have both in the summer credits. Its would by

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Speaker 4: the way, most seriously, most seriously, if I could do

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Speaker 4: one thing, I would complete the single market without the

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Speaker 4: delay and also create a genuine savings and Investment Union

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Speaker 4: with a deep and liquid capital market, because this would

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Speaker 4: help address the challenge of venture capital and financing of

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Speaker 4: European startups and growth companies.

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Speaker 2: What would it do? What would that sort of cohesive

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Speaker 2: market do that you can't do right now at a

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Speaker 2: national level? Would it just lower capital costs for everyone?

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Speaker 4: Or for instance, concerning the Savings and Investment Union, you

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Speaker 4: have actually a long list of concrete decisions that it

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Speaker 4: will require. But the key things are in many ways,

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Speaker 4: to have a safe asset, a European safe asset, which

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Speaker 4: would facilitate the creation of genuine European capital market. And

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Speaker 4: then in addition to that, there are quite reasonable proposals

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Speaker 4: of creating either tax incentives or other decisions that encourage

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Speaker 4: people to invest, people meaning individual citizens and households. Sweden

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Speaker 4: actually is a very good example of this, so that

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Speaker 4: in Sweden, for instance, you have a certain portion of

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Speaker 4: your retirement payments that you have to invest to the

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Speaker 4: stock market or funds oh I see yeh, which has

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Speaker 4: helped to create a culture of investment in Sweden. And

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Speaker 4: we are actually even though Finland was mentioned as a

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Speaker 4: role model, but we are benchmarking in Sweden in basic

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Speaker 4: card because they have the most vibrant to answer capital market.

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Speaker 4: Also thanks to this quite well functioning capital market.

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Speaker 3: It makes total sense that you know, I think of

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Speaker 3: the Euro Area of the whatever version of it we

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Speaker 3: want to talk about, is it's an ongoing project. It's

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Speaker 3: always a work in progress. It will probably never be

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Speaker 3: completely finished. There's always more to do. But this to

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Speaker 3: my mind gets to the sort of like the challenge

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Speaker 3: of domestic politics, right and like we also see what's

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Speaker 3: happening here. We're October sixteenth, our government is shut down.

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Speaker 3: But it feels like various versions of this stress are

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Speaker 3: replicating themselves across the sort of rich developed Western countries. France,

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Speaker 3: their government always seems to be like two weeks away

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Speaker 3: from collapsing. Who knows if they'll have a government. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if Belgium has a government these days. I

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Speaker 3: think the Dutch have an election coming up. Who knows

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Speaker 3: what's happening there. If you look at polls in Germany,

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Speaker 3: we all know that parties like the AfD, which are

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Speaker 3: in a very different trajectory, are doing very well in

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Speaker 3: the polls there, etc. Like how much of the Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's great to say, like people here in d C

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Speaker 3: these conferences and here Bloomberg, I love the idea of

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Speaker 3: like integrated market, but how much is the roadblock that

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Speaker 3: you foresee to get to where you want? Essentially the

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Speaker 3: reality of domestic electoral politics in each of the member countries.

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Speaker 4: It's a continuous silence. And you're right. So when you

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Speaker 4: said that Europe or the European Union or Eurozone is

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Speaker 4: a community or community of states that is in constant movement,

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Speaker 4: I would wish that it would be in a more

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Speaker 4: rapid movement, but it is indeed an unfinished business and

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Speaker 4: will continue to be. So that's why it is actually

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Speaker 4: so so fascinating and meaningful to work for Europe on

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Speaker 4: these two brief points. First, the political battles or the

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Speaker 4: political competition of the souls of the people are done

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Speaker 4: in Europe in the member states. Yeah, national politics are

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Speaker 4: key here and that's why I have a high regard

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Speaker 4: for national politicians who face this silence in the town

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Speaker 4: hall meetings and in the social media or elsewhere, and

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Speaker 4: of course in terms of policy making. So we have

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Speaker 4: to be able to do such concrete policies that help

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Speaker 4: alleviate the concerns of the citizens and both sustainable growth

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Speaker 4: and sub creation in Europe. That's the essence. Second comment

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Speaker 4: is that it's quite interesting that even though we have

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Speaker 4: had and continue to have populist movements challecing say, the

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Speaker 4: most interested parties in almost all countries of Europe, still

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Speaker 4: the European Union is holding together and it is structurally

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Speaker 4: kind of it's.

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Speaker 3: Still fairly popular, isn't it. Like actually the Pole still

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Speaker 3: showed a fair amount of popularity of these like multinational

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Speaker 3: it is.

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Speaker 4: It is for instance, in France, the right wing party

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Speaker 4: Aaron has torn down its criticism concerning the Europe in

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Speaker 4: recent years, and Europe, or in this case, the European

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Speaker 4: Union works as a glue that helps to keep together

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Speaker 4: the policy making structure of Europe. So in that sense

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Speaker 4: it has a certain impact, kind of second level reverse

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Speaker 4: impact on domestic politics as well. Quite illustrative is that

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Speaker 4: in Finland on Monday, after many years of his cousin,

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Speaker 4: we were able to agree or the eight parliamentary parties

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Speaker 4: were able to agree on a long term commitment to

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Speaker 4: balance the budget and depth anchor, which is historic and

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Speaker 4: it is also respecting the EU of his car rules.

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Speaker 4: Even the parties that have been quite critical on Europe

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Speaker 4: are part of this agreement, which in my views actually

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Speaker 4: quite encouraged.

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Speaker 2: Earlier this year everyone got very excited about Germany finally

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Speaker 2: wanting to spend right. We weren't going to be terrized

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Speaker 2: by the Black Zero, the Schwartz and Nule forever. Do

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Speaker 2: you get the sense that things are changing in other countries,

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Speaker 2: because again here in the US, the headlines we see

436
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Speaker 2: for a place like France is worries over the deficit,

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Speaker 2: political I don't want to say incoherence, but certainly a

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Speaker 2: little bit of political chaos. Does it feel like all

439
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: of the Eurozone is becoming more comfortable with the idea

440
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: of spending for strategic purposes at this moment in time,

441
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 2: or is it primarily still Germany.

442
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 4: It is primarily maturity of other member states. But you

443
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 4: are right, there is a certain variety of concerning the emphasis,

444
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 4: and Germany plays a key role here. The decisions of

445
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 4: the German government and in fact German government and opposition

446
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 4: earlier this year are now taking effect. They abuceatory laws,

447
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 4: so they will be implemented. That's critical. But so other countries,

448
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: like all the Nodics. The Nordics together are twenty seven

449
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 4: million people and relatively worth the area in the globe,

450
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 4: and all the noted countries are expanding their defense expendits significantly,

451
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 4: so all the Eastern European countries and several over the

452
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 4: Western European countries. So overall, the pictories I would say encouraging.

453
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: I don't sought for victory yet, but we are on

454
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 4: the right road here.

455
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 3: You know, it's really great to have you on the

456
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 3: podcast because both Tracy and I covered the Eurozone crisis

457
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 3: of the early the first half of the twenty tens

458
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: quite intensely. There are numerous headlines that you would make news,

459
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 3: and I saw your name and numerous headlines over time

460
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: and maybe next time you come on, I'd love to

461
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 3: just like do an hour and just talk about that time,

462
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: provided we don't want to give you like euro crisis, PTSD, etc.

463
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: But I do have one, you know, I have really

464
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: good questions about what that time was really like. But

465
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: I was talking about this as someone last night, you know,

466
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 3: as the crisis metastasized over time and always were going

467
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 3: to introduce a new bailout fund and I forget acronym

468
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: after acronymiah, that's like, yeah, all the acronym soup.

469
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

470
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: But then the crisis ended essentially on the day that

471
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: Mario Dragi said that sovereign spreads were an impediment to

472
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 3: monetary transmission, and once he said that closing spreads were

473
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: sort of mandate consistent with the ECB, from then on everything.

474
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 4: So that was it.

475
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: That was the moment that the crisis really turned. Couldn't

476
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 3: that have happened a lot earlier? Was there a lot

477
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: of unnecessary pain that was incurred in Europe because it

478
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 3: took so long to sort of get to the point

479
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 3: that the ECB could find a way that it was

480
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: within its remit to close spreads.

481
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: I think it's a legitimate question and I've been thinking

482
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 4: about that quite a lot. I have actually answered to

483
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 4: this question in my book quote Walking into the High

484
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 4: Wire uter Zone Crisis. In fact, that it is through that.

485
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 4: Once Mario said now let's send our reverts takes within

486
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 4: our mandate UH to save the Euro, then the animal

487
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 4: spirits that was it turned around and the market started

488
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,239
Speaker 4: to believe that the easy b is functioning as the

489
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 4: central bank must function as the lender of last resort.

490
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: That was the moment centralment central.

491
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, that's right, and that's why before that

492
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 4: it was kind of incrementalist firefighting. This was not without

493
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 4: value because we were able to keep the Euro a

494
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 4: float and support many countries Greece, Portugal, Island, Spain with

495
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 4: the funding of the European Stability Mechanism or its precursor.

496
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 4: In fact, now the countries that then the then we're

497
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 4: in the EU I m F programs have been in

498
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 4: the past years. They have been one of.

499
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 3: The best performance in everything, totally flipped since the twenty tens.

500
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 4: So they have reformed their economic structures to a lots

501
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 4: extent and they are much more competitive for the moment,

502
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 4: and their public finances are on his own basis, But.

503
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: There were years of pain in Greece and particularly Italy

504
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 3: as well, like truly, like like incredible economic damage and

505
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 3: by some measures they would say, like on par with

506
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 3: the Great Depression in the United States? Could Europe have

507
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 3: gotten to that point? Could Mario Draggy have given the

508
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: whatever it takes speech in two thousand and nine? Did

509
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 3: it have to wait as long as it did? And

510
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 3: all these other mechanisms have to try first?

511
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 4: Mario drague Is started as ECB president in November two.

512
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 3: Well, you're right, so there's no way he could have

513
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: given the speech in two thousand and nine. Could Jean

514
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 3: claud Trichet have given the speech in two thousand and nine?

515
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 4: You have to ask him. But I think that's my.

516
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: Point is did it did all?

517
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: Could they have moved faster?

518
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 4: Did?

519
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: Were all of these steps necessary in which the before

520
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 3: the ECB as an institution got comfortable with its role,

521
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: that it would be much like the FED and other

522
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: central banks, some sort of backstop or lender of last resort?

523
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: Did there all? Did everything else need to be tried first?

524
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 4: Like I was talking to my wife in the sauna

525
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 4: during the Eurozone crisis from two thousand and nine onwards,

526
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 4: so pretty much I share your you and if you

527
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 4: take more. It's a historical view of that. So when

528
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 4: the Euro was created, then the kind of majure event

529
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 4: like the Eurozone depth crisis was not perceived apparently in

530
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 4: the mindset the creators of the Euro, because there was

531
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 4: no stability mechanism like the IMF. The European stability mechanism

532
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 4: is the IMF in the European context. Actually, the sm

533
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 4: has more capital than the IMF total capital, so that

534
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 4: was not in existence when the crisis hit. We had

535
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 4: to create in the run on the flight. And the

536
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 4: second problem was that among the economists there was much

537
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 4: discussion about whether the Eurozone or the Economic Monetary Union

538
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 4: is an optimal currency area, but macroeconomic imbalances and finances

539
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 4: stability is used. We're kind of forgotten at the time

540
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 4: from focus also in the economists community. I think that's

541
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 4: something that deserves some self criticism among the economists as well.

542
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: We have to do an episode just about the Eurozone

543
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: crisis at some point, but we can't do it right now.

544
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: So just our five minutes left, in our five minutes left,

545
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: so just going back to the start of this conversation

546
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: which was about you know whether or not this is

547
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: a moment potentially for Europe. If Europe doesn't, the Eurozone

548
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: doesn't successfully mount some of the changes that you've discussed,

549
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: if it wastes this current opportunity, what's the most likely

550
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: path for the block as a whole. And then secondly,

551
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: how would you know that Europe has kind of achieved

552
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: this global success? Are there things that you look out for?

553
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: Is it share of currency used in global trade or

554
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: something like that.

555
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 4: Well, first, what's the miser or what's the yardstick of

556
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 4: measuring success of say European economic policy. I think fundamentally

557
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 4: that is the well being of European citizens and say freedom, entrepreneurship,

558
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 4: well being, also social protection of europe as access to sunances,

559
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 4: that's a basic human rights are essential civil liberty.

560
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 2: My mom had a sauna when she was in Estonia

561
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 2: and it was amazing.

562
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 4: That's to the second part. But then the first part,

563
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 4: what if Europe won't be able to do the necessary

564
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 4: things in order to become stronger in terms of security

565
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 4: and the economy. I guess some kind of muddling through

566
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: will will continue, and that is a very gloomy future

567
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 4: for the Europeans, So I would very much prefer us

568
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 4: stay united, have the capacity of renewal and reform, and

569
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 4: thus gain the required self confidence to also gain a

570
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: stronger role in global terms. Finally, I want to add

571
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 4: that we are very committee despite the current headweans we

572
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 4: are facing in terms of geopolitical tensions and trade wars.

573
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 4: So we as Europeans, we are committed to multilateral international

574
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 4: cooperation and we want to work together with our partners,

575
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 4: the US, Global SALFA and beyond.

576
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: I just have one last question. It feels like here

577
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 3: in the US I sort of expect that for the

578
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 3: rest of my life that we will continue with some

579
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: sort of ongoing divorce with China, that we're never going

580
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 3: to go back to the early twenty tens of the

581
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: two thousands where it seemed like we could just be

582
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: like friends. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm being too pessimistic,

583
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 3: et cetera. When you think about the future of relationship

584
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 3: with Europe and China, where do you see that going?

585
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 3: And especially again because our presidents has obviously thrown up

586
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 3: trade barriers between the United States and the euro Area,

587
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 3: is there a pivot to China in the works. Could

588
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: you see that relationship over time actually deepening. Like, what

589
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 3: are you thinking about in terms of the trajectory of

590
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 3: that relationship, because here it seems terrible.

591
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 4: There is an ongoing discussion on that in Europe, both

592
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 4: at the European level and in the Member States. You

593
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 4: have two sides of the coin. On one hand, Europe

594
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 4: is trading a lot with China, and it's quite dependent

595
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 4: on China, but it's a mutual dependency in many ways,

596
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: and it's a broadly free trade, not always so fair,

597
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 4: but free trade. On the other hand, in China, the

598
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 4: Communist Party has taken stronger political control and China is,

599
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 4: let's not forget, China is supporting Russia in its military actions,

600
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 4: military aggression in Ukraine, and that has clearly, I'm not

601
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 4: sure if that Chinese have fully realized this, but that

602
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 4: has clearly seriously damaged the imits of China in Europe

603
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 4: because we see that they are an ally of Russia

604
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 4: and they are to be that alliance day trying to

605
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 4: destroy all our freedoms in Europe.

606
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: All Right, Olivrian, thank you so much for coming on

607
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: all thoughts, really enjoyed it.

608
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 4: Thank you very thanks for these question.

609
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: Joe that was really interesting to get a European perspective.

610
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: I gotta say, you know, saying that the EU could

611
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 2: have acted quicker on the debt crisis, I think you

612
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 2: could almost always level that criticism at central banks and

613
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: to some respect. I mean, this is what we saw

614
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: during the financial crisis, right, So two thousand and eight,

615
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: it took a while for the FED and everyone else

616
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: to realize what was going on, and then they came

617
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: up with all these programs, and then when you had

618
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 2: subsequent crises, they could roll them out really quickly.

619
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 3: You know, it's like a cliche, Oh, you try everything

620
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 3: else until you get to the right answer. Yeah, it

621
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 3: is total logical, isn't it isn't it? I guess I

622
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 3: guess by definition, when you get to the last thing right,

623
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 3: you stop. By that point, associates like they took a while,

624
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 3: And I have certainly never been I've never asked a

625
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 3: guest a question and then been told, oh, I talked

626
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 3: about this in the sauna with my wife, this very

627
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 3: same topic. So that was sort of a response.

628
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting you don't talk in the sauna with

629
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 2: your wife.

630
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 3: I just don't expect guests to have had the same

631
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 3: conversation with their wife.

632
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: But I do think in general it does feel like

633
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: things are changing enormously, and I know a lot of

634
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: it is still talk at this point, but certainly speaking

635
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: with Ali, you do get the sense that there is

636
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 2: a conception in Europe that now is the time when

637
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: actually you kind of have a newspeg or an opportunity

638
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: to actually do some of the things you've said you

639
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: were going to do for a long time.

640
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 3: It's funny to think about policymakers having a newspeg is

641
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 3: if they're like, oh, let's do a podcast on this episode.

642
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: But they're just waiting for the headline now that.

643
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 3: They're gonna do. But like, it does feel like whatever

644
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: cliche you want to use, the rubber is hitting the road.

645
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 3: There are serious constraints right The industrial economy is deeply stressed,

646
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 3: the energy situation is stressed. President Trump is putting trade stress.

647
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 3: They have industrial powerhouses that are like being undercut by

648
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 3: China or facing very stiff competition with China. There is

649
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: a war going on in Europe, and as you mentioned

650
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 3: when thinking about the future of China is the fact

651
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 3: that China has been an important trading partner that was

652
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 3: really interesting, very interesting. So you know, there are a

653
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 3: lot of big issues that are being forced upon Europe

654
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 3: right now in multiple directions, whether we're talking about the war,

655
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 3: whether we're talking about trade, whether we're talking about President Trump.

656
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 3: So if they're going to do something that sort of

657
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 3: changes the trajectory of the European project, I see why.

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00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 4: It now is the time.

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Speaker 2: It's not the rubber hitting the road, Joe, it's a

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00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 2: birch branch hitting back. Yeah, in this Saana, that's what's happening.

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00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 3: Ali. We had the title Ali Wren on the birch

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00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 3: branch hitting the back, and you're a, that's our title.

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Speaker 2: Let's leave it there before we go any further.

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Speaker 3: Let's leave it there. Okay.

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Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the aud Lots podcast.

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00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and.

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00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

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00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 3: Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen armand dash Ol

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00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 3: Bennett at Dashbot and kill Brooks and Kilbrooks. More odd

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00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,919
Speaker 3: Lots content go to Bloomberg dot com. Slash odd Lots

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00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 3: were the daily newsletter and all of our episodes and

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Speaker 3: you can chat about all of these topics twenty four

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Speaker 3: to seven in our discord discord dot gg slash outlines.

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Speaker 2: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you want us

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Speaker 2: to go to Finland and talk about your zone crisis

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Speaker 2: days with Aliren, then please leave us a positive review

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Speaker 2: on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are

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Speaker 2: a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our

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Speaker 2: find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the

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Speaker 2: instructions there. Thanks for listening