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Speaker 1: Welcome to Had of Money.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joel and I am Matt and.

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking conscious capitalism with Whole Foods founder John Mackie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah so. John mackey is the remarkable entrepreneur best known

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Speaker 2: as the co founder of Whole Foods Market. That's right,

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Speaker 2: that Whole Foods, the natural and organic food store. In

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Speaker 2: over forty years, I CEO. John has led the company

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Speaker 2: as it has grown from a single store in Austin, Texas,

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Speaker 2: to five hundred and forty stores in the US and

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Speaker 2: Canada and the UK. He also co founded the Conscious

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Speaker 2: Capitalism movement and co authored the New York Times and

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Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal bestselling book by the same name. He's

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Speaker 2: written a bunch of great books since then, but we're

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Speaker 2: really excited about his latest which came out yesterday. The

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Speaker 2: book is titled The Whole Story, Adventures and Love, Life

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Speaker 2: and Capitalism, And really that's what we're gonna get into today.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna talk about entrepreneurship, We're gonna talk about capitalism, life,

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Speaker 2: maybe even what it means to play at a higher level,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to discuss all this through the lens

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Speaker 2: of an incredibly successful business, Whole Foods. John MACKI thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for joining us today on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It's I'm really looking forward to

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Speaker 3: our discussion.

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Speaker 1: Of course, No, John, We're so excited to get to

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Speaker 1: talk to you today. First question that we ask anybody

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Speaker 1: who comes on the show, though, is what's your craft

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Speaker 1: beer equivalent? And what we mean by that is Matt

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Speaker 1: and I spend a lot of money on good craft beer,

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Speaker 1: more than some people might think it's sane, but hey,

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Speaker 1: it's okay because we're still saving and investing diligently like

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Speaker 1: we know we need to be. So what's that for you?

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Speaker 1: What do you spend maybe what some people might think

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Speaker 1: is insane on that, Yeah, that you love even while

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Speaker 1: you're doing the smart thing with your money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm a long distance backpacker, so I've liked on

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Speaker 3: the Appalachian Trail twice, the Specific Cross Trail, and there's

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Speaker 3: nothing all doing more than going out for several weeks

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Speaker 3: of long distance backpacking. And to do that, I have

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Speaker 3: to have really ultra light gear. So I keep and

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Speaker 3: they keep improving it. It keeps getting it keeps getting

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Speaker 3: lighter and lighter and lighter, exactly just like certain beers

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Speaker 3: get lighter and lighter. But in this case, the joke

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Speaker 3: is I'll spend about one hundred dollars to shave one

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Speaker 3: ounce off my pack load. So that's pretty crazy. So

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Speaker 3: whether so if a new tent comes out and I

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Speaker 3: can get an ounce or two off of that, I'll

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Speaker 3: buy the new tent and I give I give my

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Speaker 3: older gear away. But so if I ever added up

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Speaker 3: what I spend on ultra light hiking gear, it would

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Speaker 3: kind of terrify me. So I never added up. I

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Speaker 3: just know I can afford it, so I can't. I can't.

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Speaker 3: It's indefensible. I can't justify it except that I really

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Speaker 3: want to have it. So that's my craft beer equivalent.

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Speaker 1: I'll love it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it those are two trails that so the at

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Speaker 2: being here starting right in North Georgia, it's basically in

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Speaker 2: our backyard. And so I feel like this it's been

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Speaker 2: something that's been on both of our mind's duel as

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Speaker 2: we've kind of got one of these days. Yes, that's

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Speaker 2: what we keep saying to itself. But John, let's kind

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Speaker 2: of go back in time a little bit. What made

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Speaker 2: you start a natural food store back in the seventies,

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Speaker 2: Because at this point, like we're very much used to

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Speaker 2: whole foods and the clones that have sprung up since then.

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Speaker 2: But it's certainly not like that was a proven path

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Speaker 2: to success or riches. I'm curious what caused you to

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Speaker 2: get into it back in the day.

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Speaker 3: It's always interesting to say, where do I start the story?

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Speaker 3: In this case, I'll start the story when I'm twenty

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Speaker 3: three years old and I moved into There's vegetarian co

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Speaker 3: op and in Austin, and I called Prana House. I

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Speaker 3: wasn't a vegetarian, and I didn't really know much about

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Speaker 3: food at all. I just thought i'd meet some I

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Speaker 3: was interested to the counterculture. I thought, I admit really

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Speaker 3: interesting people in a vegetarian co op, and I did.

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Speaker 3: But I also had a food awakening. I learned that natural,

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Speaker 3: organic foods were healthier for people, for our health, for

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Speaker 3: the environment. I learned how to cook. I became the

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Speaker 3: food buyer for the co op, and I just got

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Speaker 3: super excited. Then I went to work for a small

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Speaker 3: natural food store called the Good Food Company. I became

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Speaker 3: the assistant managers of that store, and I remember coming

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Speaker 3: home back to the co op and talking to my girlfriend, Renee,

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Speaker 3: and I said Renee, What do you think if we

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Speaker 3: opened our own natural food store. It'd be fun, It'd

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Speaker 3: be an adventure. And she loved the idea. She said,

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Speaker 3: let's do it, mac Oman, and so we did. And

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Speaker 3: that first store was called Safer a Way, Safe Way,

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Speaker 3: Safer a Way. It was in an old Victorian house.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't a good location for a business, but we

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Speaker 3: began to learn about how to do a business, and

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Speaker 3: after two years there, we relocated it to a bigger location,

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Speaker 3: merged with another natural food store that we was from,

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Speaker 3: a friendly competitors with, changed the name to Whole Foods Market.

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Speaker 3: Was we hit the jackpot. That location was a fantastic location,

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Speaker 3: kind of by luck, and we were at a time

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Speaker 3: when people, particularly the young generation, sort of the counterculture,

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Speaker 3: the hippies, were very interested in different ways of eating,

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Speaker 3: sides the processed foods that our parents were feeding us.

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Speaker 3: And so that store just took off and it became

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Speaker 3: the highest volume natural food store in the United States

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Speaker 3: within about six months of opening. Then we had this

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Speaker 3: terrible flood which we talk about in the book, that

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Speaker 3: wipes us out. We eventually are able to recover from

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Speaker 3: the flood because of help from basically all the stakeholders.

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Speaker 3: But that caused us to want to create a second

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Speaker 3: store so we wouldn't be so vulnerable to a second flood.

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Speaker 3: That was one hundred year flood that occurred in our

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Speaker 3: first year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, reading about that in the book, the one hundred

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Speaker 1: year Flood, how did that not just completely demoralize you

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Speaker 1: as a young business owner. And the coolest thing to

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Speaker 1: me when you relay that story in the book was

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Speaker 1: the response not just from the people who worked for you,

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Speaker 1: but from the people who patronize your store as well.

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Speaker 1: What did you learn from that experience?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think the words stakeholders had been invented

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Speaker 3: back in nineteen eighty, but or if it had, it

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Speaker 3: wasn't aware of it. But we were bailed out By

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Speaker 3: the first day after the flood. All these people were

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Speaker 3: cleaning up the store that were basically our customers and

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Speaker 3: our neighbors. They come into shop and saw what had happened,

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Speaker 3: and they just got in and pitched in and helped

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Speaker 3: us clean it up. Our team members worked without pay.

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Speaker 3: It took us thirty days to reopen. Our suppliers gave

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Speaker 3: us a new inventory on credit, even though we owed

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Speaker 3: them for inventory that we'd already had go down the river,

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Speaker 3: so to speak. The bank loaned us one hundred thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars on my signature, and there's a sub story in

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Speaker 3: that it turns out that the bank actually turned the

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Speaker 3: loan down, but the banker himself personally guaranteed the loan. Wow.

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Speaker 3: I didn't even find out about that until until maybe

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Speaker 3: twenty five years later. After that happened, and investors kicked

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Speaker 3: in some more money, so all of the stakeholders, they

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Speaker 3: didn't let Whole Food's Market died because why not? Because

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Speaker 3: they loved us, They cared about us. They wanted us

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Speaker 3: to come back from the dead, and we did. And

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Speaker 3: we never looked back after that except that we needed

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Speaker 3: to expand, and we started expanding and we never really

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Speaker 3: haven't never stopped since.

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Speaker 1: The way you described it almost sounds like a leave

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Speaker 1: it to Bieber kind of moment, something from Prehistorica America

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Speaker 1: that might not happen to that. I don't know, do

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Speaker 1: you think that kind of moment a small business and

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Speaker 1: the support that they could get from all of the

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Speaker 1: stakeholders involved in that business. Can that can that or

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Speaker 1: and does that still happen today?

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Speaker 2: In America.

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Speaker 3: A great question. I'm not sure you'd have to know

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Speaker 3: what Austin, Texas was like back in nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 3: very different than it is today. And everybody, nobody in

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Speaker 3: our store except for one of the co founders, Craig Weller,

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Speaker 3: was over thirty, so everybody was very young. There was

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Speaker 3: this sense of camaraderie. There was this there was this

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Speaker 3: sense of we're going to we're going to change the world.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna uh, we're different than our parents. We understand

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Speaker 3: things they don't understand.

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Speaker 2: That.

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Speaker 3: This was my generation, particularly in the counterculture. We were

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Speaker 3: in the New Age, and we really felt like we

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Speaker 3: were going to create, we were going to help change

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Speaker 3: the world for the better. That was, we were so idealistic,

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Speaker 3: and I think I don't know if that's still there today,

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Speaker 3: that there seems to be so much struggle in fighting,

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Speaker 3: and we're divided into these different tribes that seem to

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Speaker 3: have mutually mutual antipathy for each other. There was a

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Speaker 3: real feeling of love in that in that time, that

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Speaker 3: it was just something you did. Of course, you helped

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Speaker 3: your neighbor, you cared about your neighbors, you knew your neighbors,

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Speaker 3: so I can't speak for the rest of the world

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Speaker 3: today whether something like that would happen, but it definitely

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Speaker 3: could happen back when it did, so we're very fortunate

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Speaker 3: that it did happen.

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Speaker 2: To want to take a step back, you talk about

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Speaker 2: making the transition from having that initial food co natural

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Speaker 2: food store combo in that Victorian house to opening a

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Speaker 2: legit storefront, because I think for a lot of listeners

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Speaker 2: that sort of like that pivot, that point in time

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Speaker 2: that is sort of the key moment when it comes

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Speaker 2: to entrepreneurship. What is it, I guess about that move

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Speaker 2: that caused you to be what you called a quote

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Speaker 2: unquote instant success. I mean you talked about it was

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Speaker 2: a fortunate location. Was it just the fact that you

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Speaker 2: had a storefront that folks were walking by?

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Speaker 1: Was it?

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Speaker 2: Or was it something else?

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Speaker 3: It was a combination of several things. First, was it

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Speaker 3: really was a great location we did? It was in

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Speaker 3: central Austin. I'm literally a quarter mile from that location

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Speaker 3: that's sitting where I'm sitting right now. So it was

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Speaker 3: on a very busy strip thoroughfare. It had good visibility,

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Speaker 3: it had pretty good parking, but it was right in

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Speaker 3: the heart of you might say, you know, near the

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Speaker 3: University of Texas near downtown. Now it's in downtown, and

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Speaker 3: it had the population. DN City had the consciousness. We

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Speaker 3: didn't know any of that at the time. It was

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Speaker 3: only a half mile from where our other location had been,

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Speaker 3: but that was in a not on a busy street.

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Speaker 3: It was in an old house. We didn't know what

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Speaker 3: we were doing. I mean, Renee and I were just

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Speaker 3: you know, I was twenty four when we got safer

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Speaker 3: Way going, and she was only twenty. And then two

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Speaker 3: years later, so I guess I'm twenty six and Renee

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Speaker 3: is twenty two. And we just needed a bigger location.

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Speaker 3: Safer Way was too small. We were competitive disadvantage. And

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Speaker 3: I'd been awakened by a trade journal that showed up

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Speaker 3: on my house or showed up at our office one day,

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Speaker 3: called the Natural Foods Merchandiser, which was about sort of

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Speaker 3: these natural food supermarkets that were starting to spring up

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Speaker 3: mssus Gooch's in Los Angeles, Bredon Circus in Boston, Fraser

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Speaker 3: Farms in San Diego. And I got excited and I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: this is what we need to do. We need to

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Speaker 3: do a bigger store. And I went and toured those places.

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Speaker 3: I went to Boston, I went to la I went

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Speaker 3: to San Diego. Saw what they were doing, and I thought,

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Speaker 3: this will work in Austin. But we got to find

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Speaker 3: a location so and it did work in Austin. In fact,

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Speaker 3: it worked better in Austin than any other place. It

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Speaker 3: just we just took off. So there was a good

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Speaker 3: natural foods movement in Austin, but there was no store

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Speaker 3: like that first whole foods market, and it just captured

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Speaker 3: a huge market share. And because we were one stop

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Speaker 3: shopping I mean, Safer Way had been a vegetarian store.

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Speaker 3: We were selling whole foods, were selling meat, seafood, we

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Speaker 3: saw beer and wine. We weren't going to be holy

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Speaker 3: foods market. We were going to be whole foods market.

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Speaker 3: And so we became a place where you could get

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Speaker 3: all your groceries if you were living a natural, organic

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Speaker 3: food lifestyle. And that it was good timing, right location

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Speaker 3: and honestly, merging with Clarksville Grocery and put those two

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Speaker 3: stores together was also key to our success because we

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Speaker 3: brought in a lot more intellectual capital, so to speak,

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Speaker 3: a lot more retailing talent was on the same team

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Speaker 3: working together.

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Speaker 1: Some of that Sam Walton playbook too, checking out those

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Speaker 1: other guys, what are they doing well? How can I

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Speaker 1: copy or mimic some of the good stuff which is

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Speaker 1: just smart business. And on that note, you know you're

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Speaker 1: getting this food education that's inspiring the launch of this business,

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Speaker 1: but you're also simultaneously having to get this business education.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned in the book that you're like devouring binging

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Speaker 1: business books. I think maybe as you put it, what

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Speaker 1: were you reading, what were you trying? Like, I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: you felt like with this launch, Hey, it's successful, but

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Speaker 1: I also feel like I'm underwater and I got to

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Speaker 1: come up for like, I got to figure this business

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Speaker 1: thing out at the same time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there were two big things that really helped me.

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Speaker 3: The first one was my father. My father mentored me.

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Speaker 3: It was really good for our relationship. He was very

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Speaker 3: happy when a sort of hippie son college dropout son

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Speaker 3: wanted to start a business because he could relate to that.

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Speaker 3: He had been an accounting professor at Rice University for years,

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Speaker 3: and then he'd gone into business himself and had become

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Speaker 3: a first a chief financial officer and later he was

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Speaker 3: the CEO of a public traded company called Life Mark

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Speaker 3: that was a hospital management company, and he and I

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Speaker 3: got very close. He ended up being my best man

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Speaker 3: on my wedding, and the father son bond really really

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Speaker 3: see minute around me starting this business because I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what I was doing, so I basically for the

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Speaker 3: first sixteen years, we never really made a major decision

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Speaker 3: that I didn't get approved by my father, so he

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Speaker 3: was very helpful. Secondly, it's I never took any business

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Speaker 3: classes when I went to school. If you look at

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Speaker 3: my resume, it's kind of like bus boy, dishwasher, boys,

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Speaker 3: camp counselor CEO whole foods market.

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Speaker 2: I did not progression.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't have that kind of background. I didn't

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Speaker 3: have an MBA or But what I had was curiosity

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Speaker 3: and I'm pretty smart and I've always been a voracious reader.

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Speaker 3: So I just began to read business books like crazy

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Speaker 3: after that. And first I got books from my father

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Speaker 3: that he recommended, and then I just go to the

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Speaker 3: bookstores and I would and if it looked interesting, I

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Speaker 3: would buy and read it. So I literally read hundreds

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Speaker 3: and hundreds of business books. I read everything Peter Drucker

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Speaker 3: ever published as a book in English. I've read biographies

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Speaker 3: about business people, and I just I studied it. And

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Speaker 3: you know what, when you're really motivated to learn something,

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Speaker 3: you absorb information so much more rapidly than you would otherwise.

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Speaker 3: Because I'm having to live it every day. I like

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Speaker 3: to say I was working during the day and then

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Speaker 3: reading at night, and then synthesizing what I was learning,

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Speaker 3: plus asking my dad lots of questions and putting the

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Speaker 3: ideas into business. And yes, I was studying our I

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Speaker 3: was studying I to say our competitors. But a lot

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Speaker 3: of these natural food supermarkets we ended up acquiring as

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Speaker 3: we got bigger, but they were scattered around the United

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Speaker 3: States and they were innovating too, and so well Whole

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Speaker 3: Foods could innovate, we could also learn from others innovations.

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Speaker 3: I've always thought retailing, you don't have any You can't

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Speaker 3: trademark things in retailing. Right, if you have a good idea,

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Speaker 3: your competitors we'll see it and they'll copy it. And

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Speaker 3: you need to see the things they're doing that are

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Speaker 3: better than you and copy those things. So I think

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Speaker 3: continuous learning was what Whole Foods was doing in continuous innovation.

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Speaker 3: So if you saw the way our stores progressed from

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Speaker 3: safer way to the first whole foods market to where

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Speaker 3: we are today. It's it's unbelievable. And it's just because

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Speaker 3: we kept learning, we kept growing, we kept evolving. I'm

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Speaker 3: a great believer in evolution. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, and it sounds like you had such a passion

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Speaker 2: for the actual mission of what it is that y'all

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Speaker 2: were trying to I did.

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Speaker 3: But also, remember you're building a team, So there's a

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Speaker 3: tendency media oftentimes it takes a gut somebody like Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk or Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos, and they're like

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Speaker 3: Superman that do these amazing things. And they certainly are.

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Speaker 3: I know all three of those guys that are all well,

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Speaker 3: Steve's past, but they were all really brilliant entrepreneurs. But

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Speaker 3: the reality is, of course they had brilliant people on

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Speaker 3: their teams as well. They were able to attract really strong,

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Speaker 3: talented people and then the team together does amazing things.

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Speaker 3: And it's not just me that was learning. Everybody in

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Speaker 3: our team was pumped up. We were so inspired about

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Speaker 3: what we were doing. There was that doesn't exist as

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Speaker 3: a company gets older and the and the initial founders

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Speaker 3: begin to move on and retire and you get more

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Speaker 3: professional in your management, your intelligence or average intelligence probably

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Speaker 3: goes up, but passion as you professionalize, begins to go down.

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Speaker 3: And what we were long on in the early days

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Speaker 3: was passion. We were so excited. We just you know,

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Speaker 3: it was it was kind of we worked really hard,

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Speaker 3: but it wasn't hard. It wasn't work, it was fun.

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Speaker 3: It was play because we were so inspired about what

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Speaker 3: we were doing and we were learning and growing and changing,

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Speaker 3: and we just saw this unlimited future ahead for us. Well,

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Speaker 3: it's hard to convey it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I love I love that that

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Speaker 2: you are, including of course the folks that helped you

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Speaker 2: to build it into what it is today. But I guess,

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Speaker 2: like I'm curious, So that sounds like a piece of

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Speaker 2: advice to take from this is just be cognizant of

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Speaker 2: the folks who that you're bringing in around you. But

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Speaker 2: not everybody has the same passion for the work that

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Speaker 2: you do. And I don't know, I guess I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: about We talked to someone recently who talks about taking

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Speaker 2: many retirements. You talked about you splurging on your ultra

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Speaker 2: light gear, like you would take months off from work

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Speaker 2: to hike the Pacific Coast Trail. Do you think that

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Speaker 2: that's a part of the key to staying invigorated and

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Speaker 2: excited about your work is to actually do the exact

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Speaker 2: opposite and maybe providing some distance from it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not quite accurate in the sense that for

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Speaker 3: the first from nineteen seventy eight to two thousand and one,

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Speaker 3: I never took very much time off at all.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, he works for the.

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Speaker 3: First twenty three years, and I gave up my twenties

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Speaker 3: and thirties. But then I was in New York heading

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Speaker 3: down to Wall Street when nine to one one happened

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Speaker 3: the second plane. When the second plane hit the tower,

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Speaker 3: we were probably less than half a mile from it,

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Speaker 3: and our car got We were heading down to meet

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Speaker 3: with the bond raiding agencies, not in the towers, but

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Speaker 3: very close by, and our car was showered by debris,

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Speaker 3: and I got out of the car and I thought,

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Speaker 3: my god, both towers are on both towers are on fire,

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Speaker 3: and that's got to be a terrorist attack. And so

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Speaker 3: it was like, we got to get the hell out

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Speaker 3: of New York. They're going to shut this city down.

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Speaker 3: I figured the airports would already be closed, and they

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Speaker 3: were but they hadn't closed the train station yet, so

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Speaker 3: we went straight to the train station, caught the last

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Speaker 3: train out of New York, got as far as Philadelphia,

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Speaker 3: rented cars, and drove back to Austin in a rental car.

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Speaker 3: And on that drive back, I got to thinking. I

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Speaker 3: was driving through the Appalachians, and I was thinking that, Man,

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Speaker 3: I thought about hiking this trail. There'd be so much

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Speaker 3: fun to do that, And I thought, why not. I

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Speaker 3: could have died. I could have died in the last

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Speaker 3: few days, and there's you know, I wanted to do

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Speaker 3: some other things. So it was after that event that

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Speaker 3: I began to get more balance in my life and

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Speaker 3: I was less of a workaholic, and I began to Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I did take a sabbatical, took four and a half

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Speaker 3: months off, like the Apalachian Trail, but that was the

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Speaker 3: last time I threw hiked to a trail and took

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Speaker 3: much time off. Even the Pacific Crust Trail, I was

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Speaker 3: taking it off. I section hiked it. So I would

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Speaker 3: take off a few weeks in the spring, in a

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Speaker 3: few weeks in the late summer, and then I think

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Speaker 3: it took me about five or six years to do

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Speaker 3: the whole trail.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about the products that are

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Speaker 1: being sold to Whole Foods, and it was certainly innovative,

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Speaker 1: and Whole Foods remains like a leader in the healthy

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Speaker 1: grocery space. In many ways, it seems like the unhealthiest

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Speaker 1: items on the shelves at so many grocery stores are

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Speaker 1: the most expensive, like per calorie, right, because you eat

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Speaker 1: like three bags of potato chips, it's really expensive and

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Speaker 1: you're still not full. So does being a healthy eater

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Speaker 1: in your opinion, does it have to cost a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. There are a lot of people who have

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Speaker 1: given Whole Foods a lot of flack over the years

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Speaker 1: because of expensive shelf prices. But I mean there's also

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Speaker 1: nutritionent is crucial to our ability to thrive as human beings.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear your take on that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have some definite views on that. The first

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Speaker 3: thing is is that it's not expensive to eat calories,

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Speaker 3: even healthy calories. What's more expensive is to eat nutrients.

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Speaker 3: So most of the processed foods we get are high

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Speaker 3: end calories. And there's a reason why we evolved. For

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Speaker 3: most of our evolutionary history, calories were scarce and so

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Speaker 3: humans evolved to crave calorie dense foods. We like things

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Speaker 3: that have a lot of fat in them, have a

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00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 3: lot of sugar or refined carbohydrates in it. We like

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Speaker 3: things that have a lot of protein in them, and

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Speaker 3: we like things that have a lot of salt. In fact,

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Speaker 3: we can easily get addicted to foods that provide that,

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Speaker 3: and most of our processed foods provide lots of calories

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Speaker 3: for people, but not very many nutrients. But the reality

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Speaker 3: also is is that we spend less on food today.

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Speaker 3: We spend less than ten percent of our disposable income

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Speaker 3: on food. Think about what it was like one hundred

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Speaker 3: years ago. We spent up to fifty percent of our

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Speaker 3: calories on food if we didn't live on a farm.

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Speaker 3: Because food was relatively expensive. We didn't have the transportation,

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Speaker 3: we didn't have the processed foods. You couldn't get oranges

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Speaker 3: year round, you couldn't get people had gardens. And the

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Speaker 3: world's so much different today because food is relatively cheap.

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Speaker 3: People can complain about places like Whole Food's being expensive,

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Speaker 3: but in reality they're spending so much less money on food.

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Speaker 3: It's just expensive compared to what they think are the alternatives,

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Speaker 3: but those alternatives are giving them cheap calories. You can

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Speaker 3: go to a fast food restaurant and get calories cheap,

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Speaker 3: but those you're not getting nutrients. The nutrients that you

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Speaker 3: will get in fresh produce, fresh fruits and vegetables, beans,

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Speaker 3: whole grains, certain animal foods, but those are going to

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Speaker 3: be more expensive on a per nutrient basis. So if

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Speaker 3: you think to eat to maximize your nutrient density per calorie,

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Speaker 3: that's a whole different way to think about it. That's

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Speaker 3: not how most people think about it. But so I

434
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 3: don't think food's more expensive historically, and I still think

435
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 3: you can eat extremely healthy diet and not spend much

436
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: money on it if you will cook. The reality is

437
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 3: most people do not want to know how to cook,

438
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 3: and they don't want to cook. I cook. I like

439
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 3: to cook, and I get and I eat. I eat

440
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 3: a very very healthy diet, and it's because I prepare

441
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 3: most of the food myself, and I don't eat out

442
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 3: that much. And if I eat out, I eat the

443
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 3: simplest foods I can find on the menu.

444
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:30,239
Speaker 1: I love it.

445
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 2: This is great money saving advice from John Mackie. Don't

446
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: have to do all these things of course, but he does. John,

447
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: We've got plenty more to talk to, and we want

448
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: to also make sure to cover sort of your view

449
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,959
Speaker 2: of capitalism, how it works, and maybe how it actually

450
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: should work, and maybe how more people should actually view capitalism.

451
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: We'll get to that more right after.

452
00:22:50,320 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 1: This our weak back to the break. We're still talking

453
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: with the founder of Full Foods, John Mackie and John.

454
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: We want to get into some more theoretical stuff and

455
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: some philosophical stuff, and particularly Matt and I, we love

456
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 1: the way you've talked about capitalism because yeah, it is

457
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 1: the best system ever devised by mankind, and it has

458
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 1: led to a burgeoning ability for people to build wealth

459
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: and enjoy a good life even I mean, just like

460
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: you talked about before the break, the last one hundred

461
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: years in the grocery business, prices have come down, options

462
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,959
Speaker 1: have come up, like we're all better off for it.

463
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: You said that it's a myth that consumption drives our economy,

464
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 1: even though stats show that our spending seems to be

465
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,719
Speaker 1: the main engine behind our economic growth. Why is that?

466
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: Why do you think that that spending is not the

467
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: main driver.

468
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 3: That's putting the cart before the horse. It's Ultimately, innovation

469
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 3: and increased productivity that drives the economy upwards, not spending.

470
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: If there's no innovation, you can spend all you want,

471
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 3: but it doesn't make the economy get healthier and stronger.

472
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: It's the creativity of on entrepreneurs. It's the think about

473
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: the advancements we've had in the last thirty years. How

474
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 3: many people were using a smartphone thirty years ago, nobody was,

475
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 3: it hadn't been invented yet. How many people we were

476
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 3: just beginning to use the internet thirty years ago there

477
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 3: was no AI. Look at how AI promises to drive

478
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: the economy going forward.

479
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: Even lightweight hiking and camping gear right.

480
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, there was no today. Because of Zoom and

481
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 3: technologies like that, people don't have to go into the

482
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 3: office every day. That's one of the silver linings, I

483
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 3: suppose from the pandemic. So that's not coming from spending

484
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: or consumer spending. That's coming from innovation and creativity of business,

485
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 3: mostly through entrepreneurs and the scientists that they that they

486
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 3: employ and align with. So progress is driven through entrepreneurship

487
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 3: and innovation. That's what keeps That's why capitalism so amazing

488
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: because it's this dynamic system of continued improvement, continued innovation,

489
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: continued progress. It doesn't ever stop if we allow it.

490
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: It just continues to move humanity up to higher and

491
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 3: hire and evolving levels. Most of people that don't like

492
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 3: capitalism are not good students of history. They don't compare

493
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: the world historically. I always like to put this challenge

494
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 3: to people, which is, I'll give you the entire history

495
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 3: of the human race. Tell me when it's better been

496
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: a better time to be alive than right now. There's

497
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: never been a time better to be alive than right now,

498
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: And almost every objective measurement you can come up with,

499
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 3: there's no comparison. If people don't realize that just two

500
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 3: hundred years ago, which is not very long ago, ninety

501
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 3: four percent of the people alive on the planet lived

502
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 3: on less than two dollars a day in today's dollars,

503
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 3: eighty five percent didn't even live on a dollar a day.

504
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 3: The average lifespan was thirty the illiteracy rate was eighty

505
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 3: eight percent. Only twelve percent of the world's population could

506
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: even read. It was a frigging nightmare.

507
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: So why are we connect to the dots? Why has

508
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: an anti capitalist sentiment kind of become in voting.

509
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 3: I think it's always going to be in vogue to

510
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 3: a certain extent because because human nature's not perfect and

511
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 3: capitalism's not perfect, capitalism gives people what they want to buy.

512
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: And we were talking about food earlier, and sometimes people

513
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,239
Speaker 3: want to blame the businesses for selling this food that

514
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 3: is not healthy for people. Well, they're selling that food

515
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: to people because that's what people want to buy. And

516
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 3: I explained earlier that's partly their evolutionary past that makes

517
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 3: us want to crave calorie dense foods. But business and

518
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 3: capitalism will always give people what they want, even if

519
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 3: it's not the best thing. They'll give you pornography if

520
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 3: that's what you want. They will give you drugs if

521
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: that's what you want. They'll give you whatever you want

522
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 3: because that's how business can prosper and make a profit.

523
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 3: And because human nature doesn't want always what's good for it,

524
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 3: business is frequently blamed, but really the sins of its

525
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 3: customer base. That's the first thing. And also people look,

526
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 3: they look and they see that there's inequality, there's environmental problems,

527
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: there's racism, and they tend to they don't have a

528
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 3: historical context like, Okay, is there racism in the United States? Well,

529
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 3: sure there is, but a lot less than when I

530
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 3: was a boy, and when I was a boy there

531
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 3: was a lot less than one hundred years before that.

532
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 3: There's America has become less racist over time. Is there

533
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 3: income inequality? Well, yeah, sure there is. When hasn't there

534
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 3: been income inequality? I mean you could say, when when

535
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 3: maybe everybody was living on less than a dollar a day,

536
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: we had income equality, but it was horrible.

537
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: Equally, is that a better alternative?

538
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 3: And they always compare real world capitalism not to real

539
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 3: world socialism, which has never worked. I mean, socialism has

540
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: been tried by forty one countries in the last one

541
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 3: hundred years. Every one of them's a failure. And then

542
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: what happens is they say, well, they didn't do it right,

543
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: or they gotta they got to Stalin and or they

544
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: gotta Mao, or they gotta Castro. They romanticize these socialistic

545
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 3: states until they're proven failures, and then they say, well,

546
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: they didn't do it right. So there's this utopian socialism

547
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: in people's minds that's just never been done right. So

548
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 3: capitalism gets compared against an imaginary socialism, not a real

549
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 3: world socialism. If people would be honest and look at

550
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 3: what socialism's done, it just fails every time. And you

551
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: know why it fails, because it goes against human nature.

552
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 3: People are not going to become altruists just because you

553
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 3: want them to become altruists. People are people are gonna

554
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: work in their own self interest. They're going to work

555
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 3: in the interests of their families. They want to get ahead,

556
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 3: they want they want a better life for their children,

557
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: they want a better life for their families, and that's

558
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: going to drive the economy. And socialism tries to get

559
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: people to sacrifice for the common good. That may work

560
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: in small groups or a family, but it does not

561
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 3: work on a larger scale. And that's been proven. It's

562
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 3: been proven so many times. It should just be empirically fact.

563
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: Okay, So, speaking of working in your own best interest,

564
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 2: go ahead and define for us conscious capitalism and explain

565
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: why it actually differs from cold hearted capitalism, because I

566
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: think that's a lot of folks who point to capitalism

567
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: and they're thinking of what you said, which is well,

568
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: they're only certain looking to serve the shareholders. The shareholders,

569
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: they're seeking to achieve the highest profits possible, it's only

570
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: in it for himself. But explain how conscious capitalism comes

571
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: into play.

572
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's very interesting when I explain conscious

573
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 3: capitalism to people who are are really diehard capitalists, and

574
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: I'll finish explaining it and they'll say, but that's just capitalism,

575
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 3: and I say, yes, that is exactly right. It is

576
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 3: just capitalism. But what ends up happening is is that

577
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: capitalism has been defined by its enemies, people that hate it,

578
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: mostly a Marxist critique of capitalism. It's all about the

579
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 3: money that they're exploiting, the workers, they are cheating their customers,

580
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 3: that they are spoiling, the environment that the people are

581
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: seeing as these you know, greedy bastards who only are

582
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: in it for the money.

583
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: It's like a rapacious capitalism.

584
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. Here's the thing. Are there people like that

585
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: in business? Absolutely? There are a rapacious capitalists because human

586
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 3: nature has that in it. Are there rapacious lawyers? Yes?

587
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: What about politicians? Yes? What about doctors?

588
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: Yes, I means yes, some of them are.

589
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 3: That's why you guys are a team. But the reality

590
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: is business is not any worse than any of the

591
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: other professions or any of the other fields. Of work. Human

592
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 3: nature is in business. Human natures everywhere, and so you're

593
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 3: going to get some greedy, selfish people. But that's not

594
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: built in to business. In fact, just the opposite. Business

595
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: flourish is when it serves others. It has to serve

596
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: its customers. It has to create value for customers or

597
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 3: business fails. You can't make profits unless you're creating value

598
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 3: for customers. That's the fundamental truth. It's based on voluntary

599
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 3: exchange for mutual gain from mutual benefit. So business has

600
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: to serve customers. Business also ultimately has to serve its employees.

601
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 3: What do you mean it serves its employees. Well, of course,

602
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: because employees have choices. They don't have to work for

603
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 3: the business. If they can find a better job that

604
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: pays better, they'll go take that job. So you compete

605
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: for good workers and you provide jobs, You provide paid benefits,

606
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: opportunities to grow and learn, and then if you have

607
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 3: a good relationship, people stick around, they gain more intellectual

608
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 3: they learn more, and they get become more productive over time.

609
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: So your stake second stakeholder is going to be your employees.

610
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 3: And then you're trading with all these suppliers. They're trading

611
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 3: with you for mutual gain and mutual benefit. A business

612
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 3: like coal foods market literally has tens of thousands of

613
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 3: suppliers small around the world selling us food from every

614
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 3: which place on this planet. They're gaining, we're gaining. It's

615
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: a win win win relationship. So you have all of

616
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 3: these different stakeholders that are interdependent on each other. Most

617
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: people that don't like capitalism see it as this zero

618
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,719
Speaker 3: sum game. Somebody's winning and somebody else is losing. If

619
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk, these are just greedy people

620
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: who took a bigger piece of the pie than they

621
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: really should have taken. That's not accurate. There's not this

622
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 3: fixed pie, and these guys aren't stealing a bigger piece.

623
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 3: They've earned a bigger piece because they've created more value

624
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 3: for their customers who voluntarily have exchanged with the business,

625
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 3: and they've prospered because of the value they've created. They've

626
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 3: become rich because of the value they've created. So business

627
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 3: is fundamentally and it gets into the second major principle

628
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: of conscious capitalism. Besides, all the stakeholders matter and they're

629
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: interdependent on each other, a principle. Actually the first principle

630
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 3: is every business has this potential for higher purpose besides

631
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: just making money. Does business have to make money? Of

632
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: course it does. If it doesn't make money, it will fail,

633
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 3: and it won't create value for any of the stakeholders

634
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: if it fails, if it's not successful. It's like z

635
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: Ed Freeman, the founder's stakeholder theory likes to say, my

636
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: body produces red blood cells. If I stop producing red

637
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 3: blood cells, I will die. It does not follow logically

638
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: that the purpose of my life is to produce red

639
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 3: blood cells. Similarly, business has to make money or it

640
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 3: will die. But it doesn't mean it exists to make money.

641
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: Doctors make a lot of money, but that's not their purpose.

642
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 3: Their purpose is to help heal people. Teachers educate, architects

643
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 3: design things, engineers construct things. They all are creating value

644
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: for other people. But they have to make money doing so.

645
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 3: So does business. It's really not any different, and it

646
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 3: has just been defined by its enemies. Is somehow or

647
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 3: another greedy because it has to make money. Food for people,

648
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 3: not for profit, as the food co op movement says.

649
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 3: But guess what If you don't make a profit, then

650
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 3: your business cannot grow. It cannot meet crises. It cannot expand,

651
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 3: it cannot buy new equipment. So profits are absolutely essential

652
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 3: to the business. So conscious capitalism higher purpose, the higher

653
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 3: purpose of business will always have something to do with

654
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 3: the value creation for its customers. Whole foods a highest purpose,

655
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 3: higher purpose is to nourish people in the planet. That's

656
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 3: why we started the business in the first place. We

657
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 3: want to sell healthy food to people, but had to

658
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: earn a living, and we had to make money in

659
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 3: order to be able to grow and give a return

660
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 3: to our investors to risk their capital with us. So

661
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 3: capitalism is this dynamic system. Conscious capitalism just means you

662
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 3: understand it and you know it has a higher purpose

663
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: than just make only making money. You know that it

664
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 3: has these interdependent stakeholders. You know that you have to

665
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 3: create a culture that people enjoy being in. So culture

666
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 3: is very important, and you need culture. You need conscious leadership.

667
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 3: You need leaders who are servant, leaders who are serving

668
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 3: the higher purpose of the business and are not just

669
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: trying to line their own pockets.

670
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: It seems like in in the kind of maybe cold

671
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: hearted capitalism, if we're talking about that, we might be

672
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: talking about a short sighted effort as well. Maybe not

673
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: creating a business that stands the test of time. If

674
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: you want to create a business, if you want to

675
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 1: create a podcast that lasts for a decade or longer,

676
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: you have to serve the people, the listener's ears. What

677
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: is going to be helpful to them, what they want

678
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: to hear, not just what Matt and I want to create.

679
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: It's the same as any business out there. And guess

680
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: what if we start being becoming too self indulgent with

681
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: the content, then people are going to tune out and

682
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: go find somebody who actually helps teach them the things

683
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: they want to know about personal finance. We talk about

684
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: competition all the time in UH when we're talking about capitalism,

685
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: but you talk about cooperation and the importance and the

686
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: necessity of cooperation. I feel like competition gets all the

687
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: love and it gets all the score and too Maybe

688
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: why why is cooperation so key to making business work?

689
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 3: Very very good insight? Of course they're both important. Both

690
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 3: competition and cooperation are important, But people focus on competition.

691
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 3: I think it's largely because of sports and games. That's

692
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 3: the metaphor we oftentimes use in business. It's about winning.

693
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: The thing about a game is that our sports is

694
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: there's one winner and a lot of losers. But in

695
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 3: business there's lots of winners. The sports metaphor breaks down,

696
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 3: and yet most people think in a kind of winner

697
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 3: take all mentality, which is the wrong way to think

698
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 3: about business. And in terms of cooperation, the cooperation you're

699
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 3: cooperating within your organization to create value for your customers,

700
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 3: and that camaraderie, that team work, that working together is

701
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 3: the way you business will be successful. If you don't

702
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 3: have that, if you have all this bureaucratic infighting, your

703
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 3: business is very vulnerable to other organizations who have that

704
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: higher degree of cooperation, they'll beat you in the competitive marketplace.

705
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 3: And the competition is important because unlike again a socialistic

706
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 3: situation which lacks competition, you don't have these businesses competing

707
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 3: with each other. So it's like going down to the

708
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: department of Motor Vehicles and standing in line and nobody.

709
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 3: None of the bureaucrats have any motivation to serve you well.

710
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 3: They're not rewarded and they're not punished based on their

711
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: service levels. But as you say it, if you don't

712
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 3: do a good job with your podcast, if you're not

713
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 3: creating value for your listeners, they have other alternatives. You're

714
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: not the only podcast out there, You're not the only

715
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 3: personal finance podcast out there, So you have to create

716
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 3: value for your listeners or your business will ultimately fail

717
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 3: in the long run. So you're right about their long

718
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: term nature of business. Business has to Yes, the ones

719
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: that cheat their customers, exploit their workers, steal from their suppliers.

720
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: In the long run, they're going to fail as businesses

721
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: because people have other alternatives in the marketplace, because competition

722
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 3: to serve customers is the basis of capitalism. And if

723
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 3: you fail in serving your customers and you won't serve

724
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 3: your customers well, if you're trying to cheat them, and

725
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 3: if you're exploiting your workers, they're the ones that have

726
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 3: to serve the customers, then you're also going to have

727
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 3: struggles in succeeding in the marketplace. So capitalism is this

728
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 3: system that channels cooperation and competition to create more value

729
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 3: in the world, and that's why it's so powerful and

730
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 3: why it continues to drive human progress upward to higher levels.

731
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: I think that's the biggest difference between folks who have

732
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: an understanding of conscious capitalism and those who don't, is

733
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: just the timeframe because yeah, I don't want to say

734
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 2: any company, but you can cut corners in manufacturing, or

735
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 2: you can treat people poorly or underpay employees. And yeah,

736
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: maybe for a year or for like for quarterly earning

737
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 2: earnings or something like that, like yes, you will see, well,

738
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, this guy is so good, Like how

739
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: was he able to turn this around? I think in

740
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: conscious capitalism you talk about Toyota who actually did this,

741
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 2: and there's an individual who was noted for some of

742
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: the Toyota's profits. But a few years later, those shortcuts

743
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: that he took started to.

744
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 3: Come General motors, the general motors, they.

745
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: Started started to come back and bite them and bite

746
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 2: them in the butt because of those those corners cut.

747
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, they started squeezing their suppliers. Yeah, and in the

748
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 3: short run, the suppliers had they had to go along

749
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: with it and swallow it. But they didn't have to

750
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 3: renew those contracts and they could begin to favor other

751
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 3: automobile manufacturers who treated them better. So you can get

752
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 3: away with cheating somebody for a while, but you also

753
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 3: then develop a reputation. People hear about it and they

754
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 3: don't want to do business with you. So it in

755
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: the long running backfires. Yeah.

756
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: John, In the wake of COVID, we've heard so much.

757
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: We've heard the term greed flation bandied about quite a bit,

758
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: and we've specifically seen the finger pointed at grocery store

759
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 1: operators a lot. As someone who started a grocery store,

760
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: a highly successful one, it seems like the competition is

761
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: incredibly stiff, the margins are thin in that industry. It's

762
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: not like the internet business right where there's like two

763
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: competitors going out each other. There's a bunch of grocery

764
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: stores that people can choose from. Talk to us about greedflation,

765
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: is that accurate? And how do you combat those accusations?

766
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 3: The food business is so competitive. I mean, it's one

767
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 3: of the most competitive businesses out there. And think about

768
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 3: who you've got as major players. You've got Walmart. That's

769
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 3: Walmart's biggest category of sales as food. They are the

770
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 3: biggest supermarket, the biggest food retailer in the United States,

771
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 3: and they're famous for their low prices. And then after

772
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 3: that you got cost Co, who's even cheaper than Walmart.

773
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 3: And so between those two golias that are incredibly difficult

774
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: to compete in price.

775
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: You get the European entrance too, all illegal.

776
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 2: Right, we can have an interview with John mackew without

777
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 2: bringing up Aldi, my favorite low cost food provider where

778
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 2: you can also buy organic foods more now.

779
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, they have a because it's a limited assortment model

780
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 3: and they focus on just a few products that they

781
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 3: can buy us very aggressively on those few products, so

782
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 3: it's kind of a treasure hunt. You can't always get

783
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 3: what you're looking for. But that's and Trader Joe's, i think,

784
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: falls into that category as well as a as a

785
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 3: natural food sort of limited assortment, lower price. They keep

786
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: their overhead down, they keep their cost down. Whole food's

787
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:38,439
Speaker 3: competed on the basis of service, quality and selection and ambiance,

788
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 3: so that people would we always believed correctly, I think

789
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: that people would many people, not everyone, be willing to

790
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 3: pay a little bit more to get highest quality, great service,

791
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 3: and a deeper selection in natural and organic foods and

792
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 3: as commonly you could find inte Trader Joe's, for example.

793
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: So that's the point. Like capitalism, rightly understood is like

794
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 3: a very complex ecosystem, and there are all these different

795
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 3: niches that exist within that ecosystem. So you can have

796
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 3: a cost Co and a Walmart and a Kroger, and

797
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 3: an HB and a Whole Foods and a Trader Joe's

798
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 3: and a Legal and an Aldi. You can have all

799
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: of these diverse food retailers all flourishing, all succeeding because

800
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 3: they have got different places in that ecosystem. They serve

801
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 3: different customers' desires. There's not one size that fits all.

802
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 3: Everybody doesn't want the same thing, and that's what allows

803
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 3: shared prosperity. And the market's complex because people have different

804
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 3: needs and desires. So the answer to your question is

805
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 3: the reason. If food prices are going up, it's primarily

806
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 3: due to the government's prices are going up because the

807
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 3: government continues to print more dollars than it has demand,

808
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 3: and that raises prices through the whole economy. It's not

809
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 3: Food is not singled out. If food has temporarily pricingre is,

810
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 3: it's probably more on the supply side because you had

811
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 3: something happened to crops that might have might raise the

812
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 3: or you have oil prices go up since most of

813
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 3: the agricultural business is based on fossil fuels, so there

814
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 3: can be a lot of factors, but it's not going

815
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 3: to be because there are these greedy grossers out there

816
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: trying to squeeze the last nickel out of you. They're

817
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 3: in competitive situations if their prices get out of line.

818
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 3: There are other alternatives in the marketplace. There is not

819
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 3: a grand conspiracy between all the food retailers to raise prices.

820
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: If anything, they're trying to figure out how to sell

821
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 3: it cheaper so that they can get a competitive advantage

822
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 3: on everybody else.

823
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 2: I think what you said is true, the fact that

824
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: it seems so prevalent. It's just where that's where most

825
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 2: people spend most of their money every single month. It's

826
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: one of the points of transaction. It's one of the

827
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 2: transactions that we have where there's a very tangible feeling

828
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: of either handing over literal cash or you adding things

829
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: to your cart and taking that cart to the cashier

830
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: and then running ringing it up. It's sort of like the.

831
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: Satin gas prices.

832
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,479
Speaker 2: It's like exactly, It's like it's like seeing the gas

833
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 2: prices per gallon. It's the gasoline price phenomena where we're

834
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: crazy sensitive to that because it's something that we frequent

835
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: so often that and that we look at as opposed

836
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 2: to it being something true, like you said, where there's

837
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: some sort of cabal if you.

838
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 3: Kept all your expenditures, and you guys might do that

839
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 3: since you're personal finance guys. If you tracked all your expenditures, though,

840
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 3: you'd find that your grocery bills were far less today

841
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: than they would have been again twenty five, thirty, forty

842
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 3: fifty years ago. And we're spending a lot more money

843
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 3: on housing today than we used to have spend, and

844
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 3: we spend a lot more on more consumable you know,

845
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 3: look at the how much people every people Some people

846
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 3: trade their iPhone in every time a new addition comes out,

847
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 3: and you know, that's a lot of groceries every time

848
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 3: you buy a new iPhone. Or you might even have

849
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 3: a passion like idea for ultra light camping gear, and

850
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 3: I'm spending I probably spend more money on ultra light

851
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: camping gear than I do on groceries. So it's it's

852
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 3: it's you've got to have these things in the right context.

853
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 3: But you're right. Food is something you see for equently

854
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 3: when if you shop yourself, and so you'll notice prices

855
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 3: going up and it bothers you because it's in your face.

856
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So to speak totally. And I get the desire

857
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: to maybe point the finger, but it's a misplaced desire because, yeah,

858
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: there again so much competition in that industry. All right, John,

859
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: we have just like a couple more questions to get

860
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: to with you, including we want to talk about people

861
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: listening to the audience who want to start their own

862
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: business what is the best way for them to go

863
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: about doing so? In twenty twenty four, we'll get to

864
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: a couple more questions with John Mackey. Right after this,

865
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 1: we are.

866
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 2: Back from the break speaking with John Mackie, the founder

867
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: of Whole Foods. And John, you say that you want

868
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: to and this is a quote, empower individuals to contribute

869
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: their creativity and that human creativity is not limited. And

870
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: so what does it look like you think to just

871
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: raise up a new generation of entrepreneurs in order to

872
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 2: unleash their creative spirit in order to build businesses that

873
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: are that are going to thrive today.

874
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: You know, it's one of the reasons I wrote I

875
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 3: wrote my new book, The Whole Story. I wrote it

876
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: for many reasons, but one of the reasons I wrote

877
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: it was for entrepreneurs. This is an entrepreneur's story from

878
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 3: the very beginning, when I didn't know anything and we

879
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 3: were making lots of mistakes. Could we almost didn't survive

880
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 3: to learning, growing, changing, evolving. So it's my friends and

881
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 3: our entrepreneurs that have read the book gets super excited.

882
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: It's like, then this just spoke to my heart. I

883
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 3: really loved your book. So it's easier to start a

884
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 3: business today than it used to be. Capital is so

885
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 3: much easier to get than it was to get when

886
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: we started out Whole Food's Market. I mean, the venture

887
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 3: capital business had just been born in any kind of

888
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 3: It was just getting started really back in the late

889
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 3: seventies and early eighties down in Silicon Valley. So now

890
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 3: you have angel investors you have, it's so much easier.

891
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 3: And because of the social networks that we the social

892
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 3: networks we have today that we didn't have then, as

893
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 3: well as you have all these incubators. The capital used

894
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 3: to be scarce. It's not scarce any longer in terms

895
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 3: of businesses. So if you have a good idea, you

896
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 3: can get it funded.

897
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: You can also start a digital business. And thirty years

898
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: ago digital businesses is starting a business online on the

899
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: Internet wasn't a thing. And now there are so many

900
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: successful people who launched something online. They have an idea

901
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: and they can create a one person, two person business

902
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: that supports their whole family.

903
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: And it could be a worldwide business as well.

904
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, with just a few people working for which is

905
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 1: insane to think about. Really. And by the way you mentioned, yeah,

906
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: you're kind of your book and kind of the vibe.

907
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: I feel like your book had Shoe Doog vibes, which

908
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: is like the highest praise I can give to a

909
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: business memoir because Phil Knight's book is just so classically excellent.

910
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: But you get put in not just you can put

911
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: in your shoes as an individual going through all this stuff,

912
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,479
Speaker 1: but you also learn like a lot of business stuff

913
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: along the way. And that's what made Shoe Doog so powerful,

914
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 1: just like, hey, this is the story of how business

915
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: gets built and it's not always pretty, uh and yours

916
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: wasn't always pretty either, but there's so much we can

917
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: learn from learn from it. What advice would you have

918
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: for listeners who have a burning desire to start something,

919
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 1: who who want to start a business, who are hear

920
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: what you've been able to accomplish, granted through a lot

921
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: of hard work, a lot of effort, but who say

922
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: I want to do something similar, I want to create

923
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 1: something great. Where would you tell them to start first?

924
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 3: I want to say, Shoe Dog was the book. That's

925
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 3: my favorite business book I've ever ready. That was the

926
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 3: benchmark we used in writing the whole story. It's like,

927
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: that's our benchmark. Well, not a book is good or

928
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 3: better than Shoe Dog, So that was, Uh, that's I

929
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 3: praise if we're in the same category with them. And

930
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 3: another point I want to make is that compared to

931
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 3: the past, like when we started to try to do

932
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 3: Wholefoods dot com and then Whole People dot com, there

933
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 3: was no software as a service. There was no that

934
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 3: didn't exist, a salesforce. Dot Com hadn't really gotten going.

935
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 3: I hadn't done their business yet. There was no uh,

936
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 3: no shop of if you wanted to do a digital business,

937
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 3: there was You had to build everything from scratch, super

938
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 3: expensive to do and the tech talent was very expensive

939
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 3: and it was scarce. So today you can start a

940
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 3: business and you pretty much you don't all your account

941
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 3: and you're legal. Everything you want you can pretty much

942
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 3: get as software as a service, and so you don't

943
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 3: have to make the same capital allocations. So so much

944
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 3: easier today.

945
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: But there's another business, typically a fairly inexpensive one there

946
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 1: to support you in the stuff that you don't want

947
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 1: to do or you're not great at.

948
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 3: That's exactly correct. So you can really focus on what

949
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 3: you are good at, and you can outsource pretty much

950
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 3: everything else. So you know, the best advice I can

951
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: give people that want to start a business is started,

952
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 3: just get going on it. Most people are too afraid

953
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 3: to just get going and afraid of failure. They're afraid

954
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 3: of they don't know enough. But as my book points out,

955
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 3: I didn't know enough either. I didn't know what we

956
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 3: were doing, but I was willing to make mistakes and learned.

957
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 3: And if you're waiting, I'll tell you, I'll tell you

958
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 3: a story. So well, I get it. Invited to speak

959
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 3: at business schools a lot, and one of the if

960
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 3: I speaking in an NBA class, one of my questions

961
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 3: I get when we get into Q and A. And

962
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 3: then I ask questions too, And one of the questions

963
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 3: I asked the group of students is how many of

964
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 3: you plan on starting a business someday like I did.

965
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 3: Dependent's on the business school, but oftentimes I get at

966
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 3: least three quarters of the people raise their hand some

967
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 3: day they want to start a business, and then I say, okay,

968
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 3: how many of you going to do that? Immediately after

969
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 3: you get your MBA very few hands stay up, and

970
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,439
Speaker 3: I say the ones and hands are up. You guys

971
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 3: are going to start your own business. The rest of

972
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 3: you are kidding yourselves. And what happens is people have

973
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: a dream to start a business, but they always have

974
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 3: excuses not to. In the case of the NBA students,

975
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: it's like, well, I got a lot of school debt,

976
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 3: I've got I got a two hundred thousand dollars offer

977
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: from Amazon or from Goldman Sachs and a bonus. I'm

978
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 3: going to take that, but someday, I'm going to come

979
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 3: back to my business dream. Somedays then they get it,

980
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: and they get they have families and they have big houses,

981
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 3: and their lifestyle goes up and they never find their

982
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 3: way back, so to speak. So my best advice I

983
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 3: can give you, if you're going to start a business,

984
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 3: stop waiting and start it. And they oftentimes say, I

985
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 3: hear VC say, I only want to invest in an

986
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 3: entrepreneur who's got at least one or two failures under

987
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 3: their belt, because they all learned from that. The point

988
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 3: is that you'll not learn until you start. But once

989
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 3: you start, there's a certain power in starting. There's a

990
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 3: great quote quote by Gerda that talks about once you

991
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 3: truly commit to something boldly and you move forward, the

992
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,919
Speaker 3: whole universe kind of shifts. You start having, you start

993
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 3: meeting the right people. You have all these interesting synchronicities

994
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 3: if one thing. Once your entrepreneurial mind is turned on,

995
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 3: you start to see other possibilities and people become possible

996
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 3: resources to you that you've never thought about before, and

997
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 3: so you have to begin it. But once you begin it,

998
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to actually say that world, the universe begins

999
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 3: to shift and work your way, work for you instead

1000
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 3: of against you. And you'll have to do that to

1001
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 3: understand what I'm saying. But I've talked to lots of entrepreneurs.

1002
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 3: I know hundreds of entrepreneurs, and they all tell me

1003
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 3: the same thing. Once I really committed, the world started.

1004
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 3: You know, the right people showed up at the right time,

1005
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: the right circumstances happened, and we moved forward and became successful.

1006
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: I love it.

1007
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, until you start, you are still behind the veil.

1008
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: And once you step out from behind that veil, that's

1009
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: when you start to begin to see those possibilities.

1010
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 3: I'm a great believer in Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey,

1011
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 3: and I really believe you know, I felt called at

1012
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 3: this Hero's Journey. I think entrepreneurs feel a call to

1013
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 3: a hero's journey. I think everybody gets a call to

1014
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 3: a hero's journey, but most people are too scared or

1015
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 3: too frightened to answer that call. I just want to

1016
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 3: encourage you that to answer the call whatever is in

1017
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 3: your heart, to go out and do the thing. So

1018
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 3: that are your call to do that your heart is

1019
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 3: calling you to do. Your life will be so much

1020
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 3: more interesting and so much more fun. It'll be a

1021
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 3: grand adventure if you just had the courage to answer

1022
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 3: that call and pursue it. So I urge your listeners

1023
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 3: to do that exact thing.

1024
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 2: Well, I heartily agree, John Mackie, thank you so much

1025
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: for talking with us today. We're gonna, of course, link

1026
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 2: to your new book that just came out yesterday, and

1027
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 2: I know you've got it is John mackey dot com.

1028
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 2: We're folks can learn more about you. What you're up to?

1029
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 2: Is that right?

1030
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 3: That's John pmacky dot com.

1031
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: Oh I forgot. Okay, there you go. Yeah, well we'll

1032
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: link to everything, John, and man, we so appreciate your

1033
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 1: wisdom and your time today. Thank you for joining us.

1034
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 3: I've really enjoyed our conversation. Guys. I wish you the

1035
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 3: very best in everything that you do in your own

1036
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 3: entrepreneurial journey.

1037
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 2: So that was an incredibly fun conversation. And my only

1038
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: regret is that we hit stop after we officially ended

1039
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 2: the podcast, and we thought we were about to leave,

1040
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 2: and then we just fired back up for like another

1041
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 2: ten or fifteen minutes. Yeah, and we don't freaking have

1042
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 2: any of that to share with listeners, but I am sorry.

1043
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 2: A lot of wisdom, lot of money, listeners, a lot

1044
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 2: of joy I mean, yes, oh my gosh, John, I

1045
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 2: think it came through in our conversation, in our interview

1046
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 2: with him, but like I feel like, I don't know

1047
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 2: when when the interview's over, I feel like he had

1048
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 2: the freedom to be even more of yourself. And folks,

1049
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 2: I'm happy to let you know that John was even

1050
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: cooler than he seemed on the interview.

1051
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: I've always been a big fan, so I was glad,

1052
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: so glad to get to have him on and okay,

1053
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna give my bigel he said he talked about,

1054
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,879
Speaker 1: he said, just start it going right. But the cool

1055
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: thing too, is it that's that's not just empty rhetoric

1056
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: for him to mind, That's not just advice to somebody else.

1057
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: He's taking his own medicine because he has launched another business,

1058
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: which we didn't even get into in the conversation, a

1059
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: new business, Love dot Life, and it's, uh, the first

1060
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: location is launching in Los Angeles here in a few

1061
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 1: months time. And so I don't I guess I love

1062
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:51,919
Speaker 1: that John takes his own medicine. And then he talks

1063
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: about it as being this passion pursuit all the way

1064
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 1: through founding Whole Foods, and his new business, Love dot

1065
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: Life is also another passion business. And so yeah, if

1066
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: you want to start business. I love what he said

1067
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: too about the guys holding their hands up whether or

1068
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: not they're going to start a new business or not.

1069
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: You're filling yourself. It's a passion, isn't there. You're you know,

1070
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: And because like let's say, Matt, there's.

1071
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 2: Some I think it's I think maybe for them what

1072
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 2: they would say it was like, well, no, no, no, I'm passionate,

1073
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 2: but life gets in the way and all these other

1074
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 2: things stack up against you, and you've got to be

1075
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 2: I'm in a dovetail. Okay. So this is gonna be

1076
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 2: my big takeaway too, which is that you've got to

1077
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: be willing to take the risk. And you know, we

1078
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: kind of talked about the the upsides and the benefits

1079
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 2: of starting a business today, where like where you have

1080
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 2: all of the technology at your fingertips in order to

1081
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 2: get a business started. And while that is true, what

1082
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 2: we also have is this thing called social media that

1083
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: raises to the highest level perfection. And if you are

1084
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 2: so obsessed with perfection and the fear of making a

1085
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: mistake keeps you from taking risks, well you're never going

1086
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 2: to get started to begin with. And so it's man technology.

1087
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 2: It's this double edged short and so therefore I think

1088
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 2: we have to make sure that we are including the

1089
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 2: aspects of technology and innovation the things that make our

1090
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 2: life better, including the things that are leading.

1091
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: Us astray and just yeah, distracting us too. It's part

1092
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: of being us where our larger life goals may build

1093
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: something easier than ever before. You can also get distracted

1094
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 1: by the technology of the tools than ever before. So yeah,

1095
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: use them to your advances. The digital minimalism strategy that

1096
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,320
Speaker 1: Cal Newport talks about absolutely using the proper tools to

1097
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: your advantage in the right quantity and discarding the rest.

1098
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: So all right, let's introduce our beer, because you and

1099
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 2: I enjoyed a peak mosaic and this was a beer

1100
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 2: by Hot Butcher for the world. What did you think, buddy, This.

1101
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: Is one of the best beers I've had in a

1102
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: long time. So good. I was overjoyed drinking this beer.

1103
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: While we talked to John, I.

1104
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 2: Just looked at Yeah, this is a big beer, which

1105
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 2: is which is why it was what ten?

1106
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: That's right? So okay, So in my mind this was

1107
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 1: basically the juiciest hot Bomb that I've had in recent memory.

1108
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: To Hot Butcher, I've only had a few of their beers.

1109
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: I think they're out of the Chicago area maybe, but

1110
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 1: it was right. I love what they're doing and I

1111
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: will drink all the Hot Butcher beers until they stop

1112
00:56:58,520 --> 00:56:59,720
Speaker 1: making them or sending them to Atlanta.

1113
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 2: It's like New England Hazy Concentrate and all other breweries

1114
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 2: should make their beers based on this beer like this

1115
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 2: should be like the Mother got like the mother or

1116
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: the starter or whatever when it comes to sour dough

1117
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: for all the all the sour dough lovers out there,

1118
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 2: and I feel like this should be the mother for

1119
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 2: all the other hazy New England's out there.

1120
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: If our local Georgia breweries would try to replicate this,

1121
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: I'd be thrilled, even just like their their half hearted

1122
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: attempt would be them.

1123
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: Among the stars.

1124
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was delicious. So all right, everyone, we'll put

1125
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: links to everything that it's related to John his new book,

1126
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: which of course is a fantastic read. We'll put that

1127
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 1: in the show notes up at how tomoney dot com.

1128
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 2: That's right, and so until next time, Buddy, best Friends Out,

1129
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 2: Best Friends Out,