1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: I am Tracy B. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying And 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: today we're going to have another listener request. Not long 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: after we started working on this podcast, listener Carissa asked 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: us if we could do an episode about the Carni 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: Mata Temple in Deshnok, India, which is home to thousands 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: and thousands of rats. Naturally, there's a story there, and 9 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: it's a story that's way more than just hey, rats, 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of rats. That's a lot of rats, 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: But sadly, a lot of the writing in the West 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: is really about the rats. So there was a lot 13 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: of picking through chaft to find the wheat. Doing doing 14 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: the research for this episode, I found lots and lots 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: of versions of the same story, lots and lots of 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: contradictory information. So in sifting through all that, I think 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: we've gotten kind of to the bottom of it. Yeah, 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: and it has one of your favorite subjects in it. 19 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: It does medieval mystics. We have talked about medieval mystics 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: on the podcast before. When we've talked about Marjorie Kemp, 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: but this time the medieval mystic is from India, and 22 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: all of this really starts with the Hindu goddess Durga. 23 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: She is a goddess with several arms, and exactly how 24 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: many varies from one depiction to another. Um Often she 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: is riding on the back of a tiger or a lion, 26 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: and in each of her many arms she has a 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: different holy weapon. So when you look at depictions of her, 28 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: she really looks like she could end you, but like 29 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: with really righteous love, she's just going to take you apart. 30 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: And the reason that she looks so completely dangerous is 31 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: that she was actually created to defeat the buffalo demon 32 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Mahisha Sarah, who was invincible. The gods had been trying 33 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: to defeat Mahisha Sarah, but they couldn't, so they combined 34 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: all of their energy together to bring Drga into being, 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: and each of the gods gave Drga their holy weapon 36 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: to carry into battle against the buffalo demon. And Durga's 37 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: battle with Mahisha Sura lasted for nine full days, but 38 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: on the tenth day, she finally defeated him, and this 39 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: brings us to Karni Mata. She was a fifteenth century 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: sage and mystic who spent most of her life as 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: an ascetic. Her followers believe that she is an incarnation 42 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: of Durga. She reportedly lived to be a hundred and 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: fifty years old, and when she died, she vanished into 44 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: a flash of fire. She was born with the name 45 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: Ri Dubai in seven in the Jodhpur district of Rajasthan, India. 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: This is northwest India and not that far from the 47 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: border with Pakistan. She was the seventh daughter born into 48 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: a fairly affluent Sharin family. The Sharons were known for 49 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: their poets, bards, and story tellers. In the area where 50 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: she lived was really mostly scrub land and desert. Most 51 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: of the people who lived there were nomads who traveled 52 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: from oasis to oasis, and they grew milliant and they 53 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: herded sheep and goats and cattle. She's described as being 54 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: really assertive starting in her very early childhood, which was 55 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: not really acceptable behavior for girls in the culture at 56 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: the time. She was also known for being a gifted poet, 57 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: a powerful leader, someone who was extremely intelligent, and also 58 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: extremely ugly. This last part sort of ties into the 59 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: belief surrounding her. The idea is that Durga chose to 60 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: be born into an ugly body, having had a beautiful 61 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: face in a previous life. When Rido was a child 62 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: about the age of six, her aunt was braiding her 63 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: hair using just one hand, and Rido told her to 64 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: use both hands, but the aunt said that she couldn't 65 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: because her other hand was paralyzed, and Rido touched the 66 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: paralyzed hand, and according to legend, her aunt was cured. 67 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: This shows up in most counts as the first indication 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: that she was a divine being, and that's when she 69 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: began to be known as Carney. So Mada is an 70 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: honorary title meaning mother, and Carney means miraculous or divine, 71 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: So Carney Mada is a miraculous mother. And there's another 72 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: similar story of Carney laying hands to cure her father 73 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: of a snake bite, as well as other tales of 74 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: miracles and divine deeds that she did throughout her life. 75 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: Carney did not want to get married, but she hadn't 76 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: yet convinced everyone of her divinity when she reached marriage age. 77 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: In particular, her father and her uncle doubted her claims 78 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: of being the reincarnation of Durga, and they forced her 79 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: into an arranged marriage, and she obeyed um, but she 80 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: really didn't have any intention of actually leading what would 81 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: be a quote unquote normal married life. The story goes 82 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: that her marriage was chaste, and when her husband came 83 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: to their bed on her wedding night, he found instead 84 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: of his side, a lion in her place. I didn't 85 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: realize when I chose this that this was going to 86 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: be the second of chased marriages that we would talk 87 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: about in in our tenure on this podcast, and the 88 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: second time that divine intervention prevented marriage from being consummated. 89 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: So Connie didn't really want her husband to be saddled 90 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: with this chaste marriage that he did not ask for, 91 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: so she arranged for him to be married to her 92 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: sister as well. Consequently, she may be the only example 93 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: of a person believed to be the incarnation of a 94 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: hinded goddess who was also married, which is pretty interesting 95 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: that there's a sort of sweetness in it that she's like, why, 96 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: I want you to be happy, but not with me 97 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: as your wife. That's not going to work out the 98 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: way you think. But I'll wear something you can also 99 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: marry my sister, And this sort of this came to 100 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: back back to bite them a little bit, and uh 101 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: not in the way that you might immediately think. Carney's 102 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: bargain with her husband and sister meant that her husband 103 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: wound up with two wives and two really generous dowries 104 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: of cattle. Because remember, they were from a pretty affluent family, 105 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: Carney and her sister, So all of these cows put 106 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: a huge strain on the local water supply and on 107 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: the available grazing land. All of that together provided lots 108 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: of reason for the community to really resent Carney's husband, 109 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: So the three of them decided to move. The trio 110 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: traveled north towards now Deshnoke in what became the Beaconeer district. 111 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: This area was the frequent target of warlords from the 112 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: wrath Or clan, who hoped to gain power over the 113 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: tribes that lived there and establish a kind of feudal government. 114 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: In fourteen fifty nine, a wrath Worm man named raw 115 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: Bica enlisted Carney's aid in unine ing or perhaps subjucating, 116 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: depending on which point of view you have and what 117 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: historical sources you've read, the scattered tribes in the area. 118 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: So he wanted her help to bring everyone together. The 119 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: region was just way too big for a small army 120 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: to be able to hold and secure, so Beaca knew 121 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: that he was going to need something to give him 122 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: a sense of authority. That's something turned out to be 123 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: Carni Mata, who had developed a strong religious following in 124 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: the area by this point. Beaka did two things. He 125 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: consulted Karni Mata often on what his next move should be, 126 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: and by following her advice, he gained her blessing. So 127 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: one way to look at this is that Karni Mata 128 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: helped a warlord invade and conquer a bunch of tribes. 129 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: But the other is that she recognized that the only 130 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: way to stop the fighting was too if that exact 131 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: thing happened, and so she chose to support a man 132 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: that she knew could do it and someone she could 133 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: influence to make choices that would be better for the people. So, 134 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: for example, she made sure that once Vica had taken 135 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: over an area, the people who lived there would still 136 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: have rights to their ancestral lands. And she also helped 137 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: arrange marriages between plans to strengthen the ties between them. 138 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: And it took about twenty years for Vica to complete 139 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: his unification of the territory, and he continued throughout that 140 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: time to seek Carney's advice and blessing. Becca's descendants continued 141 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: to rule the area until the Indian Independence Act of 142 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: n and Carney Matta became the Baconeer royal family's patron deity. 143 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: And you might have noticed we haven't talked about rats 144 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: at all yet. No, we have not, But now we're 145 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: going to use it. Starts well, we're going to in 146 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: a moment that does bring us to the temple. The 147 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: first temple was built in Carney's honor in the fifteenth century, 148 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: and her husband's descendants were given the honor and responsibility 149 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: of managing it. As each new ruler came to power, 150 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: he would give gifts to the temple and make some 151 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: payments for its upkeep. And this is unique for temples 152 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: of this type because it's not actually a temple to 153 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: a deity. It's a temple to a human believed to 154 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: be the incarnation of a deity. The innermost areas of 155 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: the temple were built hundreds of years ago, possibly when 156 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: Carney Matta was still alive. Under her direction, Beca's grandson 157 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: built a courtyard around the original structure, and that courtyard 158 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: was embellished as new leaders came to power, until it 159 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: was replaced entirely in the nineteenth century. That outer structure 160 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: was replaced again by the one that exists today in 161 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds. The current exterior to the temple 162 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: was built by Maharaja Ganga Singh, who ruled beacon Air 163 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: from the late eighteen eighties to nineteen forty three. He 164 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: was a follower of Karni Mata and he built the 165 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: current simple exterior as a tribute to her, but he 166 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: also ended the practice of the government giving patronage to 167 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: the temple and the interest of modernizing the government. The 168 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: outer temple was built in the Late Mughal style of architecture. 169 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: This is a style of Indian architecture from the sixteenth 170 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: to eighteen centuries and it's uh you would recognize it 171 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: in a building like the taj Mahal. It has lots 172 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: of carved marble on the walls, marble tile floors, lots 173 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: of artis and columns, and silver and gold accents. So 174 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: while it's a relatively new structure, it looks pretty old 175 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: and historic. It has a very classic look to it. 176 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: In the context of other Indian architecture, and the artwork 177 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: there includes bas relief carvings of Carni Mata and of 178 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: the Hindu god Ganesh with a mouse at his feet, 179 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: as well as other statues. The courtyard is also covered 180 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: in netting up at this sort of ceiling level to 181 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: keep predators away, and there are holes and tunnels built 182 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: into the temple for rats to scamper through and run 183 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: around in, as well as areas for people to live 184 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: in and to prepare food for the rats, which finally 185 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: brings us to these twenty thousand rats that live in 186 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: the temple. Uh And the reason that the temple is 187 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: home to so many rats is actually tied to another 188 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: of the stories around Carney's life. There are several versions 189 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: of the story, but they all have some common elements. 190 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: The first is that a child had died. Some accounts 191 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: say that it was Carney's own child, although that contradicts 192 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: the idea that she had a chasted marriage. Other stories 193 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: say that it was the child of another clansman, or 194 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: maybe a particularly important clansman, or perhaps it was one 195 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: of her husband's children by her sister, but regardless, the 196 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: commonality is that there was a dead child, and Carney 197 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: wanted to return that child to life, but Yama, the 198 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: god of death, told Carney Matta that the child had 199 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: already been reincarnated, so she couldn't bring it back. There 200 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: are also several versions of exactly what happened next. One 201 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: is that Carney Mata struck a bargain with the Yama 202 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: that all of her kin would be reincarnated as rats 203 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: before then being reincarnated back into the clan. Another is 204 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: that Carney, who had a really infamous temper, was so 205 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: angry at her failure that she sort of sentenced to 206 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: the tribe to be reincarnated as rats. A third version 207 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: is that Karney had her ken reincarnated as rats to 208 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: get them out under the control of Yama, so sort 209 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: of a reincarnation loophole to get everyone related to her 210 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: out from this god who had not given her what 211 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: she wanted. But the bottom line is that the end 212 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: result is the same Carney's clansmen, through one way or another, 213 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: would be reborn as rats, and the rats that live 214 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: in the Karney Matta temple, known as Kabbas, are believed 215 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: to be incarnations of Carney Mada's clan. They're treated with 216 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: great reverence and respect, and they're worshiped because they're believed 217 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: to be reincarnated people. This includes the handful of white 218 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: rats who live in the temple who are believed to 219 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: be the incarnations of Carney Matta herself and her immediate family. 220 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: And sometimes uh you'll hear the rats described as reincarnated storytellers. 221 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: And this goes back to Carney being one of the 222 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: Sharons who are known for being storytellers and bards. As 223 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, the rats in the temple are cared 224 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: for today by descendants of Carney Mada's tribe and her devotes. Uh. 225 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: And there are lots of rules and traditions around these rats. Yeah, 226 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: and if a visitor kills a rat, he or she 227 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: has to replace it with a golden rat statue. It's 228 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: considered to be extremely auspicious if you see one of 229 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: the white rats, or if a rats campers over your 230 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: feet while you're there, your feet will be bare if 231 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: this happens, because visitors are required to take their shoes 232 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: off before entering the temple, and there's no real distinction 233 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: between the rat areas of the temple and the people areas. 234 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: Rats and people live and eat together. And it's also 235 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: considered to be extremely auspicious to eat or drink after 236 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: a rat. I suspect that makes some of our listeners 237 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: cringe a little bit. Yeah, And I think that's one 238 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: of the many reasons why so much of the writing 239 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: about this temple in the West is sort of focused 240 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: on oh, rats, not freaky, But that's really not the 241 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: tone in the temple at all. It's a place where 242 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: newlyweds often go after their ceremonies to be blessed. Uh 243 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: sometimes grooms to be will go to be blessed before 244 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: the marriage actually takes place, and this may tie into 245 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: a number of fertility miracles that are attributed to Carni 246 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: Moda during her life. So the rats have a huge temple. 247 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: It's full of tunnels and little hidie holes that would 248 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: be perfect for rats. And they get a really um 249 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: lovely diet. They get milk, they get a sweet food 250 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: called proissan, they get coconut and other delicacies. They're sheltered 251 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: and protected from predators. Tracy mentioned that knitting that keeps 252 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: predators away up at the top. And so they're living 253 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: a pretty privileged life, particularly for a rodent. They are 254 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: really pampered and and people try to look after them. 255 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: So I think while many listeners may kind of go 256 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: reincarnated as a rat does not sound like a good deal, 257 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: but these particular rats are pretty pretty well cared for. 258 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: The health aspects of this whole practice are a little 259 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: bit up for debate. Um. There are visitor reports from 260 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: people who have gone to the temple who say that 261 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: some of the rats that you see out and about 262 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: during the daytime are obviously old and sick, and presumably 263 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: have been pushed out of the nests and tunnels by 264 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: the healthier rats. There are also reports that no one 265 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: has ever seen a baby rat in the temple, although 266 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: in photographs you can see juvenile rats, and logically we 267 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: know babies would probably be tucked away in a nest 268 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: in one of the deeper hidy holes, just as a 269 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: protective measure. I mean, that's right, how rodents. Even if 270 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: you have seen pet rats who have had babies, usually 271 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: the babies are tucked away in a little tiny corner. 272 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: They don't they don't get out and run around until 273 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: they are bigger and have for There are reports from 274 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: believers that no disease has ever been tied to the 275 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: temple or its rats, But in the nineties there was 276 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: a plague outbreak in India and reports that health officials 277 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: were having a hard time controlling its spread due to 278 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,239 Speaker 1: quote rat worship. Those are mostly reports from Western newspapers. 279 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: Rat worship is not really a Hindu trait. It's particular 280 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: to this temple and the story behind it. Typically in India, rats, 281 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: as in a lot of the rest of the world, 282 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: falls somewhere on the spectrum between dirty disease carrier and 283 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: innocuous but also sometimes annoying rodent. And at the same time, 284 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: I mean many Hindus are reluctant to harm living things, 285 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: so that would make it preferable to relocate a pest 286 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: rather than kill it. Also that this is not the 287 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: only place where rats appear in the Hindu religion. We 288 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: talked a little bit earlier about how there are carvings 289 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: of the god Ganesh in this temple, and he is 290 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: a Hindu god, most recognizable because he has an elephant's 291 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: head and he's often depicted as riding a mouse or 292 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: a rat, or with a rodent at his feet. But 293 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: it's important to remember that the rats and this temple 294 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: are not being worshiped because their rats. They're being worshiped 295 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: because they are people, and specifically this mystics people. That 296 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: is the whole story of Carni Mata and the rats temple. 297 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: If you see pictures, the rats are all they're all 298 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: brown rats. They all are They look a lot alike. 299 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: They're all about the same signs uh, And you'll you'll 300 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: see lots of pictures of them running around and drinking 301 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: milk and being fed delicious food. Are there any photographs 302 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: of any of the white rats that you found? I 303 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: found really kind of grainy, blurry ones that tourists had taken. Um. 304 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: We have made an image gallery on the website of 305 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: lots and lots of pictures of the temple and the 306 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: rats in it, and I don't think there are any 307 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: white rats in those pictures that were taken by professionals. 308 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: They're only reported to be a handful of them, really, 309 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: about five, while the reported number of rats and the 310 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: rest of the temple is twenty thousands. So I just wonder, 311 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: since it's so auspicious to see one, how rare it 312 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: is for people to get an eyeball on them. Yeah, 313 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: the people that are the caretakers of this this temple 314 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: and the rats, and it's they know where they are 315 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: likely to hang out because as many animals, they all 316 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: sort of have their own little corner and territory that 317 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: they like the most. And so if the if the 318 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: caretakers know where they are, they can usually point people 319 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: in the right direction. But still, if there are so 320 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: many more brown rats than a white one, the odds 321 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: are not in your favor. Not really, It is much 322 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: more likely that rats will run over your feet. Since 323 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: they are around humans so much, they don't have fear, 324 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: They're not really afraid and even you know, I used 325 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: to have a pet rat a very long time ago, 326 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: and tame rats are not really scared of people. No, 327 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: like any tame animal, they don't mind being held and 328 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: picked up and all of that. So that is the story. 329 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: As I was getting into research, I was afraid I 330 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: was not going to be able to find enough information 331 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: written in English that was not whoa rats, because so 332 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: much of it is really just the shock that there's 333 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,479 Speaker 1: a huge rat colony that's cared for, right, and a 334 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: lot of you know, misunderstanding about what that is all about. Yeah, 335 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: so yes, I also have some listener mail, please share it. 336 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: I have a couple more letters about our Loving Versus 337 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: Virginia episode. Again, because we talked about that for two episodes, 338 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: I've got a whole lot of mail we did, indeed, 339 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: a whole lot of really interesting mail. This first one 340 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: is from Alexandra, who says, Dear Tracy and Holly, your 341 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: recent podcast on the Loving Versus Virginia case inspired me 342 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: to dig a little into the anti assgination laws. In 343 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: my home state of California, interracial marriage was banned until 344 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: ninety eight here, but there was a brief conundrum for 345 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: Filipino and white marriages from nineteen thirty to nineteen thirty three, 346 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: since it was unclear and the anti assination law whether 347 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: Filipino people could be categorized as part of quote the 348 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: Mongolian race, which was prohibited from intermarrying with white people. 349 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: A small number of interracial couples received court mandates to 350 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: issue legal marriage licenses. After Filipinos were ruled by a 351 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: court to be part of the quote melee race, the 352 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: legislation that outlawed interracial marriage was amended to include quote 353 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: melee persons like Filipino. This topic holds a soft spot 354 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: in my heart because I've come from a Filipino American 355 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: family that seems to have dodged this antime sag nation 356 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: bullet by only one generation. My grandparents married in the 357 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: Philippines and night and promptly moved to the United States. 358 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: My mother and all but one of her siblings have 359 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: married Caucasian people. My father included. I myself unmarried to 360 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: a wonderful man who has colonial Scott's Irish ancestry, and 361 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: it's just about as quote white as they come. And 362 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: it just breaks my heart to think that a couple 363 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: like us only seventy years ago would have been unable 364 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: to spend their lives together just because lawmakers wanted to 365 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: preserve a quote pure white race. Thank you very much 366 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: for that. Oh Holly is making them not a not 367 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: a sad face. This whole thing is to be very 368 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: choked up. I know. We we had to compose ourselves 369 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: several times while recordings. When there are chunks of the 370 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: podcast for only Tracy talks, it's because I was crying 371 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: too much. It's okay though, that Yeah, that was definitely 372 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: material that that was close to both of our hearts. 373 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: So um, thank you very much for providing that perspective. 374 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: Really a lot of what what we were covering, just 375 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: because of what was being discussed at the time was 376 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: about African Americans and white Americans, and so hearing how 377 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: that also related to people of other cultures and races. 378 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: I really yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. Um. We also got 379 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: a message from Tom who says I've been enjoying the 380 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: latest two episodes on Loving versus Virginia. I grew up 381 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: in Central Virginia, where Loving is a common last name, 382 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: and was completely unaware of the Lovings until the last 383 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: ten years or so. You made a reference to Caucasians 384 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: being able to marry Native Americans with no more than 385 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: one sixteenth Native American blood at the time of the 386 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: court case. This goes back to Virginia's Racial Integrity Act 387 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: of nine The one sixteenth provision was put in place 388 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: to appease the descendants of Pocahonas and gen Rolfe, who 389 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: otherwise would have been listed as colored under the provisions 390 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: of the Act. A lot of the racial purity work 391 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: in Virginia was by Walter Ashby Plecker, who, along with 392 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: the Racial Integrity Act, the Sterilization Act, and the eugenics movement, 393 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: may make a good subject for a future podcast. The 394 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: effects of the racial Purity Law are still being felt today. 395 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: Native American tribes in Virginia have been unable to obtain 396 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: federal recognition because in order to do so, tribe members 397 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: need to be able to trace the tribal lineage. Since 398 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: Native Americans were classified in Virginia as colored or even Negro, 399 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: they have been unable to trace continuous lineage. And then 400 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: he sent us some helpful links on this subject. So 401 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: I had two thoughts, uh from this letter. The first 402 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: is that the Pocahontas exception had come up in the 403 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: research of m of the episode, and it was one 404 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: of those things that I wanted to confirm before we 405 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: talked about it in the episode, and then I got 406 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: derailed and all of the other material in the episode. UM, 407 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: so thank you for bringing that up. UM. The other 408 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: is that I I was intrigued by this idea of 409 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: Native American tribes in Virginia being unable to trace their 410 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: lineage because of being classified as colored or Negro. I 411 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: have an aunt who has a long Native American history 412 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: and is also extremely interested in the family genealogy, and 413 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: she has talked about being able being unable to trace 414 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: her own ancestry beyond a certain point, not because they 415 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: were classified as a particular race, but because the government 416 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: in the areas where she is from just basically stopped 417 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: keeping up with Native American birth and death records, and 418 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: so if the tribal records no longer exist, there's definitely 419 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: not anything. There's a huge gap. Um. So I didn't 420 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: I did not realize that there were other reasons as 421 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: well that Native American people and people with various ancestry 422 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: would not be able to trace their lineage back. So 423 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: thank you very much for that new That's a cool 424 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: insight into what was to be an incredibly frustrating situation 425 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: to be trying to track things down that you just 426 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: can't because they got kind of rubber stamped in a 427 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: kind of inappropriate way, or not rubber stamped at either case, 428 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: it's an unfortunate aspect of American history. If you would 429 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: like to write to us about this or any other topic, 430 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: you may at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're 431 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: also on Twitter at Misston History and on Facebook at 432 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: Facebook dot com slash history class Stuff. You can find 433 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: us on tumbler at miss in History dot Tumbler dot 434 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: com and we're on Pinterest too. We have made an 435 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: image calorie full of images of this temple and some 436 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: of the other Indian culture related to it, and you 437 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: can go to our website type in the word wrap 438 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: Temple and you will find that can a whole lot 439 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: more at our site, which is how stuff Works dot com. 440 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, is 441 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com. Netflix streams TV shows 442 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: and movies directly to your home, saving you time, money, 443 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: and hassle. 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