WEBVTT - #138 Jason Flom with Tim Howard 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:05.160 In nineteen ninety seven. Tim Howard and his best friend 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.000 Brian Day were avid drug users in the small town 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:12.120 of Ashdown, Arkansas. Brian dealt drugs to support his habit, 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:14.319 and it was no secret that he was in debt 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:19.040 to some major players. On December thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.680 an anonymous caller notified police that a U haul parked 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.959 on property owned by Tim Howard's family was dripping blood. 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.640 When police cracked the padlock, they found Brian Day severely 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.559 beaten and shot with a thirty eight caliber bullet. When 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.400 police went to tell Brian's wife, Shan in the bad news, 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.000 they found her lifeless body in a closet under a mattress. 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.319 The couple's seven month old boy, Trevor, was zipped into 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.520 a duffel bag with an electrical cord wrapped around his neck, 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:52.400 miraculously still alive. Tim knew about the drug deal Brian 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.680 had coordinated that must have gone bad, so he understandably 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.959 fled town, as did ten other people in Ashdown's underworld, 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:05.800 Despite many obvious leads for the investigation, including aggressive characters 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.120 seen making threats against Brian and Shannon just days before 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.679 the murders, police zered in on their only black friend, 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.640 Tim Howard and his flighty behavior. With no physical evidence 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.840 whatsoever connecting Tim to the crime that couldn't be explained 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.080 away by his close friendship with the Days, the state 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.679 conjured up a motive completely based in fantasy, stirring up 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.800 a visceral response from the jury that, along with a 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.720 clear Brady violation, would send Tim Howard to death row. 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:51.920 This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flammer. Welcome back to 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.960 Wrongful Conviction with Jason flamm that's me. I'm your host, 0:01:55.040 --> 0:02:01.800 and today I'm extremely excited to have two amazing, amazing guests, 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.440 both heroes of mine. John Harden, who is a private 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.720 investigator and the co founder and director of Proclaimed just As, 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:15.360 an organization on whose board I proudly serve. And he 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:19.560 is as a background in public affairs and political consulting, 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.080 and he was a tremendous advocate for the West Memphis Three. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.520 So John, Welcome to Ronful Conviction. 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:27.840 Thanks Jason, thanks for having me. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.160 And today the star of our show is Tim Howard. 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:36.200 Tim was wrongfully convicted in not exonerated, but paroled on 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:40.919 December thirteenth of twenty seventeen. As I always say, I'm 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.080 sorry you're here, but I'm happy you're here. So welcome 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.400 to wronful conviction. Thanks for sharing your story. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:47.440 Thank you for having me. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:52.280 Jason, Yeah, and Tim, this case came with instructions, none 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.359 of the signs pointed to you, and yet you ended 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:59.400 up serving twenty years. So getting right into it. So 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:04.040 this is December thirteenth of nineteen ninety seven. An anonymous 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.880 caller notified the Little River County Sheriff's office that blood 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.800 was dripping from a U haul rental truck parked on 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.080 property owned by the family of Tim Howard on a 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.520 farm in southwest Arkansas in a little town called Ogden, 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:22.080 population one twenty six right And when deputies arrived on 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.880 the scene and they cracked the track's padlock, they found 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.800 Brian Day's body inside. He had been severely beaten and 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.440 shot with a thirty eight caliber bullet. When they went 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.720 to the Day's home to give his wife, Shannon, the 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:38.720 bad news, things got a lot worse. Her lifeless body 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:43.080 was found slumped in a closet under a mattress, and 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.360 the couple's seven month old child. That baby, Trevor Day, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.360 was found and this is I can't it's hard to 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.400 even say. This was found in a zip duffel bag 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:52.960 with an electrical cord tied around his neck, but by 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.800 some miracle, he was alive. And then things get really 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.720 weird because four days later, Timothy Lamont Howard, who's right 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.000 here on the show with us now, was arrested and 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.480 charged with the murders of the days as well as 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.880 the attempted murder of their son Trevor. And this is 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.320 where I got to start scratching my hat and go, Tim, 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.400 I mean, or John whoever wants to take this. What 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.880 evidence did they have to connect you to these murders? 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:17.360 Well? 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:22.400 Starting out nothing, I mean they said it was my behavior, 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.720 but I guess I did the same thing other people don't. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.400 When we find out what had happened, we all kind 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.720 of fled and waited for the dust to settle, because 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.160 you know, we were all in illegal activities in our 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.440 little circle so to speak. Now, don't get me wrong, 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.000 I understand why they're considered me a suspect because me 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.279 and Brown were close. We're best friends, and we were 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.800 the getter that night on and off. But when it 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.880 got down to evidence gathering, it was just all circumstantially 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:49.800 and they just rain with it. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.400 They quit looking. And you guys were involved with drugs, 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.200 But did you have a violent history or past? 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.200 No, no, no, I've been in a jail for a 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:57.880 speeding ticket. 0:04:57.880 --> 0:04:58.560 In my whole life. 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.200 I don't have any for any kind of vialus that 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.599 I was a happy, gol lookie kind of guy. I mean, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.240 at best you could say I was a drug user, 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.599 a womanizer and that type thing. But no violence in 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:10.720 my history at all. 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.160 Right, And this is a brutally violent crime. I mean, 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.360 this is not something that somebody just flies off the 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.680 handle and goes and murders a whole family. It is 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.520 a miracle that the little boy was alive. And John, 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:23.680 I mean, I want to turn to you for a second, 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:28.000 because the victim himself, he was involved in some really 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.880 shady stuff. There were reasons for people to want to 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:32.160 kill him. Can you talk about that. 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:36.360 Yeah, So Brian was involved in drug dealing, and we 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:38.240 were able to uncover a lot of things in our 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.599 investigation that really suggested that he owed a lot of money, 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.480 big money to maybe some not good characters. And that 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.000 is a much more likely scenario given the nature of 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.520 the crime, that it was something related to him owing 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.599 money to sort of hiring drug dealers. And there's a 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.600 couple of possibilities as to, you know, who actually did 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:58.000 the crime. 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.279 Well, and let's talk about this, right, because two weeks 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:04.040 before the murders, Brian was arrested alongside another dealer's name 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.520 was Mike May, and it was rumored that Brian may 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.760 have avoided jail time by snitching. Right, we know how 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:13.760 people react to that. In the underworld. There were also 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:18.039 witnesses who had witnessed violent and quote unquote unpleasant individuals 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.200 arguing with the Days about money in the week leading 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.240 up to the murders, and just days before the murders, 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.240 Shannon Day was heard saying that if anything happened to 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.880 her or Brian, because Shannon was his wife, it would 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.360 be Kenny Chickenfields, who was one of Brian's main suppliers, 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:40.520 who would be responsible. But authorities somehow managed to overlook 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:45.600 all of these potential suspects and they zeroed in on 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.320 the Day's only black friend, Tim Howard. Now, you know, 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.039 it's hard not to say that there may have been 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.039 some inherent bias towards Tim because he is a person 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.600 of color in a place that was not very racially diverse. 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.880 But what's in interesting is Tim, if you were so 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:03.840 close to them, and they made a big deal out 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.400 of this because of course some of your biological evidence 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.960 was in their house because he was your best friend, right, Yeah. 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:10.840 And when I say he was your best friend to 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.640 the extent that you actually accompanied his wife to the 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.360 hospital when she went into labor, right, and he was 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.600 out scoring meth and you took her to the hospital. 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.720 I mean that's a pretty close friend. I don't know 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:24.480 who you know who would do a thing like that 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.000 other than somebody's best friend. So, Tim, they had what 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:32.400 they considered to be evidence, which was your fingerprints on 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:36.800 a mountain dew bottle found inside the home of the victims, 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.880 and also your fingerprints or on the truck. But that's 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.120 easily understandable and easily explained by the fact that you 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.080 were literally best friends and you were in and out 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:48.280 of the house all the time. 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:50.520 Yes, I mean, well we at one point we actually 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.240 had right across the street from each other. I mean 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.040 the thing about it was when they said biological evidence 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:57.000 in the house, had they look, I have clothes in 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.800 the closet, choose you know, because I'm in and out 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:01.640 and he's the same thing at my house. He had 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.240 closed at my house. I mean, so naturally it would 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:06.240 have been odd not to find my fingerprinting anything else 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:06.880 around the house. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.560 And meanwhile, your defense argued, which would seem to be 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.240 a good argument, basically what we had said before, which 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:16.320 was that Brian was heavily in debt and was killed 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.600 by drug dealers who were tired of his uh shenanigans. Right, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:21.800 I mean, that's you know, that would seem to be 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:26.440 a valid theory. But meanwhile, the prosecution they theorized, and 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.320 they advanced the theory. Actually, I should say, they accused 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.880 you of killing him in a quote unquote meth induced rage, right, 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.000 because they said you wanted money. And then this is 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.040 where it gets to be ridiculous, right, is that their 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:45.080 theory was that you had been upset after hearing that 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.280 Shannon might have been pregnant with your baby. Even though 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:50.720 and I know this might be a sensitive topic, but 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:52.680 even though you were sterile, right, it was known that 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:54.480 you were sterile because you had found out a couple 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:55.160 of years earlier. 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.000 I knew for several years before that that I couldn't 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.840 have kids, me and my wife at the time hit 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:02.440 so we went to a doctor to found out why. 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.120 And the sad part about it is, but when they 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.800 put that theory forward to the jury, they knew it 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.960 wasn't true because it was in the notes when the 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.280 medical examiner called him said, look, she just finished her minstrel. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.320 You know that she was absolutely not pregnant. But they 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.360 still advanced that theory because it did inflame the jury. 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:22.360 But as far as other drug dealers there in Ashdown 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.360 that he owed money to, like the Kenny chicken Fields, 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.439 the town was so small to where everybody grew up 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.000 together and they went to school together, and you know, 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.480 they their families has been around there forever. And when 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:35.120 you get locked up in a place like that and 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.400 to have a capital trial, they give you two lawyers. 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:39.360 You got to take a local council and they give 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.319 you one out of Little Rock. My attorney out of 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.080 Little Rock was Matt Carter at the time, great attorney, 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.080 you know, just overwhelm with this case and he had 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.920 a ton of other cases at the same time. But 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.559 my local council, when Mack brought up the name Kenny 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.920 chicken Fields, the first thing my local attorneys says, Oh, well, 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.680 you know, he wouldn't do anything like this, and this 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:01.280 is the got it supposed to be on my side, 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.920 you know, So at that particular time, I had thought, 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.800 you know, he's telling the other side everything that we're doing. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:08.040 Now. 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.640 I mean, if you're going to defend somebody that you 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.200 ain't even investigated it because you grew up with him, 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:15.400 I mean, I don't stand a chance here. 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.160 But then there's another thing which is actually kind of weird, 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:21.320 which is this whole thing with the work boots that 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:23.840 were found like two miles from the crime scene. Can 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.720 what have you guys explain that whole aspect of this. 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.120 I can explain it to a point. Okay, When we 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.440 went to get this U haul truck, I was to 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.840 take it to my house, so I use it like 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:40.160 a vehicle. I had boots sitting in the floor along 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.040 with a bag and several other objects as I drove 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.640 around town and left it in there because the truck 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.680 was going to be with Brian. When they found these boots, 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.320 they're down at the bottom of a ravine a couple 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.160 of miles from the crime scene. There's blood on these boots, 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.200 so they tested them. They found what they all at 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:03.000 the time, Michael conjucal DNA that said that this was 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.120 ninety nine percent mine, But there were also other hairs 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.880 in this boots that matched nobody. It didn't match me, 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.400 It didn't match Brian or any of the girls that 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:14.400 were with me at the time, and that they had 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.920 no idea who it was. But the prosecutor's idea was 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:22.120 I drove by this ravine in such a panic and 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.959 I just throw them out the window, and you know 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.400 it's two or three hundred feet down to this place. 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:29.360 They said I was trying to hit the water. They's 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.440 alluded that this is where the murder weapon is, which 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.160 they never found. And the way they explained, there are 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:40.880 actual feet print leading from the boots. Somebody put them there. 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:45.480 Why we don't know. At best, you can say somebody 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.440 used them to do the murder in or put them 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.320 on after to do whatever so they wouldn't get blot 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.240 on their shoes. But they put my ex wife up 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:59.079 there to testifying, yes, I bought him these boots back 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.640 during this time, and we oft them all my clothes 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:04.559 that I was wearing that night. They wouldn't take. They 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:06.600 never took because they said the person should have been 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:07.520 a bloody mess. 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:13.080 You also had this ridiculous forensic quote unquote scientists. This 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.440 would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. But and 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.079 this really didn't come up till later, right because in 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.720 twenty eleven, and I want to get back to the trial, 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.720 but when the handwritten notes came out from the DNA 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.680 technician who had testified to your trial. The notes printed 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.079 on the lab reports, which was over course the three 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.559 months in nineteen ninety nine, back when you're on trial, 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.959 contained phrases such as CAP had flipped open while spinning, 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:44.000 source of the problem, GEL did not run properly, inadvertently erased, 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.920 and of course random spurious contaminant. It's ridiculous. 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.520 And the real kicker is, you know, the prosecution had 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.760 those notes from the lab technician and they withheld them 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.800 from Tim's defense team. So that's ultimately how we got 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.040 his conviction overturned was discovering that Brady violation. That was 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.400 evidence that the state should have disclosed and turned over, 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.640 and they did not, and we had to go back 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.280 in and find that, find those notes, and that's really 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.120 what led to the conviction being overturned. 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.600 Listening to this story it has now occurred to me 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.960 that they used the DNA testing to prove that those 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.600 were your boots, then they find and ignore another contributor 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.119 to the boots that is not you, Brian, or anyone 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:33.360 in your immediate circle, but likely the actual killer's DNA. 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.880 I mean, they had the frequent lead that they needed 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.040 to get the real killer. And the irony of the 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:44.040 whole situation is that if they weren't so damn incompetent 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.920 and shady in their attempt to get a conviction, you 0:13:47.960 --> 0:14:02.080 would be dead right now. Yeah, yeah, did you know 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.080 at the time you were facing it possible death sentence. 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.800 I had no idea that it was going to go 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.760 as far as it did, And even when they formally 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.439 arrested me, still I thought, Okay, I'll get out on 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.840 bond and we'll figure it out, up until I met 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.360 Matt Carter and he told me, is, hey, you're facing 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:19.080 a death penalty. 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:20.840 I mean, I was just I was floored. 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:26.120 As the trial unwound, you had this one attorney who 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.600 was basically not only not doing a great job for you, 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:34.160 but was almost serving as an adjunct prosecutor, and you 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.200 had evidence being withheld. There was a lot of dirty 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.360 tricks going on. You knew you were innocent. But when 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.680 the jury went out, how long did they deliberate for? 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.000 It wasn't very long. But one of the things about 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.960 that is, don't get me wrong, I wasn't an angel 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.000 to start with. I was, like I said, a woman, niager, thief, 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.000 and a drug usual, but I wasn't a killer. But 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.320 as far as the trial, it only lasted like three days. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.960 So while they were out deliberating, the sheriff and his 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.080 deputies came up and said, Okay, here's what we're going 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.560 to do. When they give the verdict. We're gonna take 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.000 you and your family through this tunnel and we're gonna 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.080 put y'all in the car so nobody has to see y'all. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.680 Were gonna leave. Even he didn't think I was getting convicted. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.480 They were making an escape plan. Then when Jerie came 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.600 back and said it guilty, one of the deputies that 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:23.320 when I first got locked up, that me and him 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.200 couldn't stand it. Your we had become the best of friends. 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.200 He broke down and started crying. He just couldn't believe it. 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.800 I was in shock because I just like they proved 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.760 nothing with all that they went through. As far as 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:36.440 how you feel, you just kind of numb because it 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:38.720 all goes so quickly. Because after the verdict, they give 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.000 the verdict, they whisk you out that night and take 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.240 you straight to death row, you know, the very next morning. 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.720 Well, well, I just want to go back for a second, 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.520 because we can't skim over a gloss over the thing 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:56.160 about the sheriff. So the sheriff was an adversary of yours, 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.440 if I'm understanding you correctly, when you first went in there, 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.600 and by the time the trial came around, he was 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.400 so convinced of your innocence. He was preparing to put 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.080 you through the back tunnel with your family. And he 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.720 was actual, he actually, I mean you're saying, he cried 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:09.840 when the verdict was read. 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.760 Yes, when I first got locked up. As a matter 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.000 of fact, when Danny Russell became sheriff, I was his 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.680 first call out. I was at a motel with a 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.680 particular young lady. Her sister, who I was leaving at 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.280 the time, came down and set my clothes on fire 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.280 outside of the hotel room. And Danny came down on 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:29.680 the first call and he said, man, what'd you do? 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:31.400 And he talked to me and talked written and we 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:32.920 kind of, you know, laughed about it and went on. 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.200 He arrested her, but he said, I'll let her go 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.040 if you call him, I'm to come get her. But 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.040 when he arrested me for this years later, this girl 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.760 was my girlfriend at the time still and we got 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.520 married in his jail. But he got to know me 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.120 the first three months and jail, you know how phone 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.160 calls and gets expensive in there. He allowed my family 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.200 to buy a phone call where I could come up 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.120 every night and call my children. And the guard who 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:58.920 I told you I couldn't stand at the time, his 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.640 name was Mike. We became the best friend. He would 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.119 to get stuff and my daughter for the prom, I mean, 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.240 paid for her dress itself. When my kids coming to business, 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:08.920 he made a special deal where they could come back 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.320 there and see me in their office. I mean, so, 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.280 I guess I'm senate to say this. Yes, I had 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.920 a tough ordeal in the jail, but as I got 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.680 to know the people stayed there all that time, it's 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.239 hard not to get attached to each other when they 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:23.280 see who you really are. 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:24.440 I guess what you could say. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.399 Well, that speaks to your character as well. Yeah, but 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.600 it's interesting to know that that type of friendship developed, 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.919 and moreover, that the sheriff himself became so convinced of 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.680 your innocence. John, in this case, How could the jury 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.320 have gotten it so wrong that even the sheriff, who 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.119 you know, went into this obviously with a preconceived notion 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.560 that Tim was guilty. How could they have gotten this 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:45.080 so wrong? 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.719 Well, you know, I think there's a few things at 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.920 play here, and you know, me being a native Arkansas, 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.520 I can speak to some of the racial components in 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.919 the whole state and Little River County ashdown Ogden. Listen, 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:04.280 the game was rigged to start with. At Tim's first 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.480 trial and his second trial these years later, it was 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:09.879 still a thing of you know, Tim being a black 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:14.239 man dates white women, dresses more, you know, like a 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.760 cowboy boots hat, you know, cowboy hat, the whole nine yards. 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.880 I mean, it was the juries of both trials were 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:26.320 picked and designed to have that prejudice, and I think 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.639 that went a long ways to convicting Tim. It was 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:30.600 heavy on emotions. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.120 I mean, when you got you know, the. 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:37.240 Husband and wife her brutally killed. But then you've got 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.639 you know, a seven month old child. It was just 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.480 a very emotional trial, both of them. 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.359 Well, and you got the prosecutor who in his closing 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.960 arguments saying stuff like the last thing this mother seeing 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.480 was him standing there and her baby hanging by a cord. Yes, 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.200 her last I mean, who would not be enraged? 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:56.560 Right? 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.560 So it was it was so heavy on the emotional 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.639 side rather than the evidence side. Then we did have 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.719 this racial component that went with it. And you know, Jason, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.040 as you know, I mean, jury's just sometimes they can't 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.000 sniff it all out, and this is one of those 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.639 times where I think they were so emotional about the tragedy, 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.920 particularly for Trevor, that they couldn't see beyond it. 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.960 So, Tim, you're convicted, taking to death row the next day, 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.480 and can you explain what death row was like? 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:31.639 A lot of people say, well, go in your bathroom 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:32.600 and shit to do it and you find out what 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.240 it's like. You can in a sense, But the difference 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.760 is you won't get the feeling of death row because 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.520 you can open your bathroom do it anytime. There are 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.200 people down there who were there when I first got there. 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.160 They are not the same people now before I left. 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:47.000 They'd lost their mind. 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.840 It's crazy to me that everybody doesn't lose their mind 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:53.520 in that scenario, and including you. I mean, it's remarkable 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.960 the human spirit, and I hear it in your voice. 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.200 It's unbelievable. 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.159 But I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.480 didn't do this by myself. I had a great support team. 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.040 I mean, you get letters when you go to death 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.440 Row all the time from different people, and of course 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.400 most of my curiosity seecret, so they don't last very long. 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.240 But I got a letter from a lady named Mine Bassett, 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:20.040 who is now married to Tomorrow Leverett. But I now 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.760 call this woman my mother. She sent me a letter 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.320 and she says, here's twenty five dollars. She was running 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.760 a thing called a court bulleting at the time. If 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:29.560 you want to write back, here's some money for stamps. 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.680 If you don't, here's a money for commissary or whatever. 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.560