1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven. Tim Howard and his best friend 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Brian Day were avid drug users in the small town 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: of Ashdown, Arkansas. Brian dealt drugs to support his habit, 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: and it was no secret that he was in debt 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: to some major players. On December thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: an anonymous caller notified police that a U haul parked 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: on property owned by Tim Howard's family was dripping blood. 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: When police cracked the padlock, they found Brian Day severely 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: beaten and shot with a thirty eight caliber bullet. When 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: police went to tell Brian's wife, Shan in the bad news, 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: they found her lifeless body in a closet under a mattress. 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,319 Speaker 1: The couple's seven month old boy, Trevor, was zipped into 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: a duffel bag with an electrical cord wrapped around his neck, 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: miraculously still alive. Tim knew about the drug deal Brian 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: had coordinated that must have gone bad, so he understandably 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: fled town, as did ten other people in Ashdown's underworld, 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: Despite many obvious leads for the investigation, including aggressive characters 18 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: seen making threats against Brian and Shannon just days before 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: the murders, police zered in on their only black friend, 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: Tim Howard and his flighty behavior. With no physical evidence 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: whatsoever connecting Tim to the crime that couldn't be explained 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: away by his close friendship with the Days, the state 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: conjured up a motive completely based in fantasy, stirring up 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: a visceral response from the jury that, along with a 25 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: clear Brady violation, would send Tim Howard to death row. 26 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flammer. Welcome back to 27 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason flamm that's me. I'm your host, 28 00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: and today I'm extremely excited to have two amazing, amazing guests, 29 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: both heroes of mine. John Harden, who is a private 30 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: investigator and the co founder and director of Proclaimed just As, 31 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: an organization on whose board I proudly serve. And he 32 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: is as a background in public affairs and political consulting, 33 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: and he was a tremendous advocate for the West Memphis Three. 34 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: So John, Welcome to Ronful Conviction. 35 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: Thanks Jason, thanks for having me. 36 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: And today the star of our show is Tim Howard. 37 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: Tim was wrongfully convicted in not exonerated, but paroled on 38 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: December thirteenth of twenty seventeen. As I always say, I'm 39 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: sorry you're here, but I'm happy you're here. So welcome 40 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: to wronful conviction. Thanks for sharing your story. 41 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 42 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: Jason, Yeah, and Tim, this case came with instructions, none 43 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: of the signs pointed to you, and yet you ended 44 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: up serving twenty years. So getting right into it. So 45 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: this is December thirteenth of nineteen ninety seven. An anonymous 46 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: caller notified the Little River County Sheriff's office that blood 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: was dripping from a U haul rental truck parked on 48 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: property owned by the family of Tim Howard on a 49 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: farm in southwest Arkansas in a little town called Ogden, 50 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: population one twenty six right And when deputies arrived on 51 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: the scene and they cracked the track's padlock, they found 52 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: Brian Day's body inside. He had been severely beaten and 53 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: shot with a thirty eight caliber bullet. When they went 54 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: to the Day's home to give his wife, Shannon, the 55 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: bad news, things got a lot worse. Her lifeless body 56 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: was found slumped in a closet under a mattress, and 57 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: the couple's seven month old child. That baby, Trevor Day, 58 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: was found and this is I can't it's hard to 59 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: even say. This was found in a zip duffel bag 60 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: with an electrical cord tied around his neck, but by 61 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: some miracle, he was alive. And then things get really 62 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: weird because four days later, Timothy Lamont Howard, who's right 63 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: here on the show with us now, was arrested and 64 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: charged with the murders of the days as well as 65 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: the attempted murder of their son Trevor. And this is 66 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: where I got to start scratching my hat and go, Tim, 67 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: I mean, or John whoever wants to take this. What 68 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: evidence did they have to connect you to these murders? 69 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 3: Well? 70 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 4: Starting out nothing, I mean they said it was my behavior, 71 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 4: but I guess I did the same thing other people don't. 72 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 4: When we find out what had happened, we all kind 73 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 4: of fled and waited for the dust to settle, because 74 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 4: you know, we were all in illegal activities in our 75 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 4: little circle so to speak. Now, don't get me wrong, 76 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 4: I understand why they're considered me a suspect because me 77 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 4: and Brown were close. We're best friends, and we were 78 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 4: the getter that night on and off. But when it 79 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 4: got down to evidence gathering, it was just all circumstantially 80 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 4: and they just rain with it. 81 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: They quit looking. And you guys were involved with drugs, 82 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: But did you have a violent history or past? 83 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 4: No, no, no, I've been in a jail for a 84 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 4: speeding ticket. 85 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 3: In my whole life. 86 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 4: I don't have any for any kind of vialus that 87 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 4: I was a happy, gol lookie kind of guy. I mean, 88 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 4: at best you could say I was a drug user, 89 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 4: a womanizer and that type thing. But no violence in 90 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 4: my history at all. 91 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: Right, And this is a brutally violent crime. I mean, 92 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: this is not something that somebody just flies off the 93 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: handle and goes and murders a whole family. It is 94 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: a miracle that the little boy was alive. And John, 95 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I want to turn to you for a second, 96 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: because the victim himself, he was involved in some really 97 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: shady stuff. There were reasons for people to want to 98 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: kill him. Can you talk about that. 99 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, So Brian was involved in drug dealing, and we 100 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 5: were able to uncover a lot of things in our 101 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 5: investigation that really suggested that he owed a lot of money, 102 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 5: big money to maybe some not good characters. And that 103 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 5: is a much more likely scenario given the nature of 104 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 5: the crime, that it was something related to him owing 105 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 5: money to sort of hiring drug dealers. And there's a 106 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 5: couple of possibilities as to, you know, who actually did 107 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 5: the crime. 108 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: Well, and let's talk about this, right, because two weeks 109 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: before the murders, Brian was arrested alongside another dealer's name 110 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: was Mike May, and it was rumored that Brian may 111 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: have avoided jail time by snitching. Right, we know how 112 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: people react to that. In the underworld. There were also 113 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: witnesses who had witnessed violent and quote unquote unpleasant individuals 114 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: arguing with the Days about money in the week leading 115 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: up to the murders, and just days before the murders, 116 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: Shannon Day was heard saying that if anything happened to 117 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: her or Brian, because Shannon was his wife, it would 118 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: be Kenny Chickenfields, who was one of Brian's main suppliers, 119 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: who would be responsible. But authorities somehow managed to overlook 120 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: all of these potential suspects and they zeroed in on 121 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: the Day's only black friend, Tim Howard. Now, you know, 122 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: it's hard not to say that there may have been 123 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: some inherent bias towards Tim because he is a person 124 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: of color in a place that was not very racially diverse. 125 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: But what's in interesting is Tim, if you were so 126 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: close to them, and they made a big deal out 127 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: of this because of course some of your biological evidence 128 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: was in their house because he was your best friend, right, Yeah. 129 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: And when I say he was your best friend to 130 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: the extent that you actually accompanied his wife to the 131 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: hospital when she went into labor, right, and he was 132 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: out scoring meth and you took her to the hospital. 133 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: I mean that's a pretty close friend. I don't know 134 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: who you know who would do a thing like that 135 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: other than somebody's best friend. So, Tim, they had what 136 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: they considered to be evidence, which was your fingerprints on 137 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: a mountain dew bottle found inside the home of the victims, 138 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: and also your fingerprints or on the truck. But that's 139 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: easily understandable and easily explained by the fact that you 140 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: were literally best friends and you were in and out 141 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: of the house all the time. 142 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, well we at one point we actually 143 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 4: had right across the street from each other. I mean 144 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 4: the thing about it was when they said biological evidence 145 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 4: in the house, had they look, I have clothes in 146 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 4: the closet, choose you know, because I'm in and out 147 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 4: and he's the same thing at my house. He had 148 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 4: closed at my house. I mean, so naturally it would 149 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 4: have been odd not to find my fingerprinting anything else 150 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 4: around the house. 151 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, your defense argued, which would seem to be 152 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: a good argument, basically what we had said before, which 153 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: was that Brian was heavily in debt and was killed 154 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: by drug dealers who were tired of his uh shenanigans. Right, 155 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that's you know, that would seem to be 156 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: a valid theory. But meanwhile, the prosecution they theorized, and 157 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: they advanced the theory. Actually, I should say, they accused 158 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: you of killing him in a quote unquote meth induced rage, right, 159 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: because they said you wanted money. And then this is 160 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: where it gets to be ridiculous, right, is that their 161 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: theory was that you had been upset after hearing that 162 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: Shannon might have been pregnant with your baby. Even though 163 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: and I know this might be a sensitive topic, but 164 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: even though you were sterile, right, it was known that 165 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: you were sterile because you had found out a couple 166 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: of years earlier. 167 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 4: I knew for several years before that that I couldn't 168 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 4: have kids, me and my wife at the time hit 169 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 4: so we went to a doctor to found out why. 170 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 4: And the sad part about it is, but when they 171 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 4: put that theory forward to the jury, they knew it 172 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 4: wasn't true because it was in the notes when the 173 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 4: medical examiner called him said, look, she just finished her minstrel. 174 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 4: You know that she was absolutely not pregnant. But they 175 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 4: still advanced that theory because it did inflame the jury. 176 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 4: But as far as other drug dealers there in Ashdown 177 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 4: that he owed money to, like the Kenny chicken Fields, 178 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 4: the town was so small to where everybody grew up 179 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 4: together and they went to school together, and you know, 180 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 4: they their families has been around there forever. And when 181 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 4: you get locked up in a place like that and 182 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 4: to have a capital trial, they give you two lawyers. 183 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 4: You got to take a local council and they give 184 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 4: you one out of Little Rock. My attorney out of 185 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 4: Little Rock was Matt Carter at the time, great attorney, 186 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 4: you know, just overwhelm with this case and he had 187 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 4: a ton of other cases at the same time. But 188 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 4: my local council, when Mack brought up the name Kenny 189 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 4: chicken Fields, the first thing my local attorneys says, Oh, well, 190 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 4: you know, he wouldn't do anything like this, and this 191 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 4: is the got it supposed to be on my side, 192 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 4: you know, So at that particular time, I had thought, 193 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 4: you know, he's telling the other side everything that we're doing. 194 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: Now. 195 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 4: I mean, if you're going to defend somebody that you 196 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 4: ain't even investigated it because you grew up with him, 197 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't stand a chance here. 198 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: But then there's another thing which is actually kind of weird, 199 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: which is this whole thing with the work boots that 200 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: were found like two miles from the crime scene. Can 201 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: what have you guys explain that whole aspect of this. 202 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 4: I can explain it to a point. Okay, When we 203 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 4: went to get this U haul truck, I was to 204 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 4: take it to my house, so I use it like 205 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 4: a vehicle. I had boots sitting in the floor along 206 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 4: with a bag and several other objects as I drove 207 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 4: around town and left it in there because the truck 208 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 4: was going to be with Brian. When they found these boots, 209 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 4: they're down at the bottom of a ravine a couple 210 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 4: of miles from the crime scene. There's blood on these boots, 211 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 4: so they tested them. They found what they all at 212 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 4: the time, Michael conjucal DNA that said that this was 213 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 4: ninety nine percent mine, But there were also other hairs 214 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 4: in this boots that matched nobody. It didn't match me, 215 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 4: It didn't match Brian or any of the girls that 216 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 4: were with me at the time, and that they had 217 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 4: no idea who it was. But the prosecutor's idea was 218 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 4: I drove by this ravine in such a panic and 219 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 4: I just throw them out the window, and you know 220 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 4: it's two or three hundred feet down to this place. 221 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 4: They said I was trying to hit the water. They's 222 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 4: alluded that this is where the murder weapon is, which 223 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 4: they never found. And the way they explained, there are 224 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 4: actual feet print leading from the boots. Somebody put them there. 225 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 4: Why we don't know. At best, you can say somebody 226 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 4: used them to do the murder in or put them 227 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 4: on after to do whatever so they wouldn't get blot 228 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 4: on their shoes. But they put my ex wife up 229 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 4: there to testifying, yes, I bought him these boots back 230 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 4: during this time, and we oft them all my clothes 231 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 4: that I was wearing that night. They wouldn't take. They 232 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 4: never took because they said the person should have been 233 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 4: a bloody mess. 234 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: You also had this ridiculous forensic quote unquote scientists. This 235 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. But and 236 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: this really didn't come up till later, right because in 237 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, and I want to get back to the trial, 238 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: but when the handwritten notes came out from the DNA 239 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: technician who had testified to your trial. The notes printed 240 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: on the lab reports, which was over course the three 241 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: months in nineteen ninety nine, back when you're on trial, 242 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: contained phrases such as CAP had flipped open while spinning, 243 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: source of the problem, GEL did not run properly, inadvertently erased, 244 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: and of course random spurious contaminant. It's ridiculous. 245 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 5: And the real kicker is, you know, the prosecution had 246 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 5: those notes from the lab technician and they withheld them 247 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 5: from Tim's defense team. So that's ultimately how we got 248 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 5: his conviction overturned was discovering that Brady violation. That was 249 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 5: evidence that the state should have disclosed and turned over, 250 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 5: and they did not, and we had to go back 251 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 5: in and find that, find those notes, and that's really 252 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 5: what led to the conviction being overturned. 253 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: Listening to this story it has now occurred to me 254 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: that they used the DNA testing to prove that those 255 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: were your boots, then they find and ignore another contributor 256 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,119 Speaker 1: to the boots that is not you, Brian, or anyone 257 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: in your immediate circle, but likely the actual killer's DNA. 258 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: I mean, they had the frequent lead that they needed 259 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: to get the real killer. And the irony of the 260 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: whole situation is that if they weren't so damn incompetent 261 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: and shady in their attempt to get a conviction, you 262 00:13:47,960 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: would be dead right now. Yeah, yeah, did you know 263 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: at the time you were facing it possible death sentence. 264 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 4: I had no idea that it was going to go 265 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 4: as far as it did, And even when they formally 266 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 4: arrested me, still I thought, Okay, I'll get out on 267 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 4: bond and we'll figure it out, up until I met 268 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 4: Matt Carter and he told me, is, hey, you're facing 269 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 4: a death penalty. 270 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I was just I was floored. 271 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: As the trial unwound, you had this one attorney who 272 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: was basically not only not doing a great job for you, 273 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: but was almost serving as an adjunct prosecutor, and you 274 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: had evidence being withheld. There was a lot of dirty 275 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: tricks going on. You knew you were innocent. But when 276 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: the jury went out, how long did they deliberate for? 277 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 4: It wasn't very long. But one of the things about 278 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 4: that is, don't get me wrong, I wasn't an angel 279 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 4: to start with. I was, like I said, a woman, niager, thief, 280 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 4: and a drug usual, but I wasn't a killer. But 281 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 4: as far as the trial, it only lasted like three days. 282 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 4: So while they were out deliberating, the sheriff and his 283 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 4: deputies came up and said, Okay, here's what we're going 284 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 4: to do. When they give the verdict. We're gonna take 285 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 4: you and your family through this tunnel and we're gonna 286 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: put y'all in the car so nobody has to see y'all. 287 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 4: Were gonna leave. Even he didn't think I was getting convicted. 288 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 4: They were making an escape plan. Then when Jerie came 289 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 4: back and said it guilty, one of the deputies that 290 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 4: when I first got locked up, that me and him 291 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 4: couldn't stand it. Your we had become the best of friends. 292 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 4: He broke down and started crying. He just couldn't believe it. 293 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 4: I was in shock because I just like they proved 294 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 4: nothing with all that they went through. As far as 295 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 4: how you feel, you just kind of numb because it 296 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 4: all goes so quickly. Because after the verdict, they give 297 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 4: the verdict, they whisk you out that night and take 298 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 4: you straight to death row, you know, the very next morning. 299 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: Well, well, I just want to go back for a second, 300 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: because we can't skim over a gloss over the thing 301 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: about the sheriff. So the sheriff was an adversary of yours, 302 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: if I'm understanding you correctly, when you first went in there, 303 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: and by the time the trial came around, he was 304 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: so convinced of your innocence. He was preparing to put 305 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: you through the back tunnel with your family. And he 306 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: was actual, he actually, I mean you're saying, he cried 307 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: when the verdict was read. 308 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 4: Yes, when I first got locked up. As a matter 309 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 4: of fact, when Danny Russell became sheriff, I was his 310 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 4: first call out. I was at a motel with a 311 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 4: particular young lady. Her sister, who I was leaving at 312 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 4: the time, came down and set my clothes on fire 313 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 4: outside of the hotel room. And Danny came down on 314 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 4: the first call and he said, man, what'd you do? 315 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 4: And he talked to me and talked written and we 316 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 4: kind of, you know, laughed about it and went on. 317 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 4: He arrested her, but he said, I'll let her go 318 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 4: if you call him, I'm to come get her. But 319 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 4: when he arrested me for this years later, this girl 320 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 4: was my girlfriend at the time still and we got 321 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 4: married in his jail. But he got to know me 322 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 4: the first three months and jail, you know how phone 323 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 4: calls and gets expensive in there. He allowed my family 324 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 4: to buy a phone call where I could come up 325 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 4: every night and call my children. And the guard who 326 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 4: I told you I couldn't stand at the time, his 327 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 4: name was Mike. We became the best friend. He would 328 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 4: to get stuff and my daughter for the prom, I mean, 329 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 4: paid for her dress itself. When my kids coming to business, 330 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 4: he made a special deal where they could come back 331 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 4: there and see me in their office. I mean, so, 332 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 4: I guess I'm senate to say this. Yes, I had 333 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 4: a tough ordeal in the jail, but as I got 334 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 4: to know the people stayed there all that time, it's 335 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,239 Speaker 4: hard not to get attached to each other when they 336 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 4: see who you really are. 337 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 3: I guess what you could say. 338 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: Well, that speaks to your character as well. Yeah, but 339 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting to know that that type of friendship developed, 340 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: and moreover, that the sheriff himself became so convinced of 341 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: your innocence. John, in this case, How could the jury 342 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: have gotten it so wrong that even the sheriff, who 343 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: you know, went into this obviously with a preconceived notion 344 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: that Tim was guilty. How could they have gotten this 345 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: so wrong? 346 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 5: Well, you know, I think there's a few things at 347 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 5: play here, and you know, me being a native Arkansas, 348 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 5: I can speak to some of the racial components in 349 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 5: the whole state and Little River County ashdown Ogden. Listen, 350 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 5: the game was rigged to start with. At Tim's first 351 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 5: trial and his second trial these years later, it was 352 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 5: still a thing of you know, Tim being a black 353 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,239 Speaker 5: man dates white women, dresses more, you know, like a 354 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 5: cowboy boots hat, you know, cowboy hat, the whole nine yards. 355 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 5: I mean, it was the juries of both trials were 356 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 5: picked and designed to have that prejudice, and I think 357 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 5: that went a long ways to convicting Tim. It was 358 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 5: heavy on emotions. 359 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 2: I mean, when you got you know, the. 360 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 5: Husband and wife her brutally killed. But then you've got 361 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 5: you know, a seven month old child. It was just 362 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 5: a very emotional trial, both of them. 363 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 4: Well, and you got the prosecutor who in his closing 364 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 4: arguments saying stuff like the last thing this mother seeing 365 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 4: was him standing there and her baby hanging by a cord. Yes, 366 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 4: her last I mean, who would not be enraged? 367 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: Right? 368 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 5: So it was it was so heavy on the emotional 369 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 5: side rather than the evidence side. Then we did have 370 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 5: this racial component that went with it. And you know, Jason, 371 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 5: as you know, I mean, jury's just sometimes they can't 372 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 5: sniff it all out, and this is one of those 373 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 5: times where I think they were so emotional about the tragedy, 374 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 5: particularly for Trevor, that they couldn't see beyond it. 375 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: So, Tim, you're convicted, taking to death row the next day, 376 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: and can you explain what death row was like? 377 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 4: A lot of people say, well, go in your bathroom 378 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 4: and shit to do it and you find out what 379 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 4: it's like. You can in a sense, But the difference 380 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 4: is you won't get the feeling of death row because 381 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 4: you can open your bathroom do it anytime. There are 382 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 4: people down there who were there when I first got there. 383 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 4: They are not the same people now before I left. 384 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 4: They'd lost their mind. 385 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: It's crazy to me that everybody doesn't lose their mind 386 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: in that scenario, and including you. I mean, it's remarkable 387 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: the human spirit, and I hear it in your voice. 388 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. 389 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 4: But I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I 390 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 4: didn't do this by myself. I had a great support team. 391 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 4: I mean, you get letters when you go to death 392 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 4: Row all the time from different people, and of course 393 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 4: most of my curiosity seecret, so they don't last very long. 394 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 4: But I got a letter from a lady named Mine Bassett, 395 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 4: who is now married to Tomorrow Leverett. But I now 396 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 4: call this woman my mother. She sent me a letter 397 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 4: and she says, here's twenty five dollars. She was running 398 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 4: a thing called a court bulleting at the time. If 399 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 4: you want to write back, here's some money for stamps. 400 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 4: If you don't, here's a money for commissary or whatever. 401 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 4: Just no, somebody's out here thinking about you. I started 402 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 4: writing to her and we started a pin pole relationship 403 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 4: type thing. And she's a great teacher and a great 404 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 4: person to talk to, but she never wrote up a 405 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 4: person in her life. The only reason I feel like 406 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 4: I'm saying out is because of the people who stepped 407 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 4: in once I got there, when they heard what was 408 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 4: going on, and I got the first four to three 409 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 4: decision on my direct appillar ever happened. 410 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: So, Tim, can you take us through how the appeals 411 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: process worked. 412 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 4: Okay, when you first get to death row, you have 413 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 4: what you call in a direct appeal, and that happens 414 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 4: within the first year that you're there, and usually it's 415 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 4: rubber stamp and it's usually seven to zero six do 416 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 4: on or something like that. My first atturn under his 417 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 4: name was Janie Vaughn. She was a civil attorney retired. Now, 418 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 4: unbeknownst to me at the time, that was the best 419 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 4: thing ever happened to me, because this woman is meticulous 420 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 4: with her research. She's the first one that found these 421 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 4: notes and put them in my direct appeal. She put 422 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 4: it everything up with the kitchen sink, and it comes 423 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 4: back with this four to three decision. My relever came in, 424 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 4: she wrote an article and people start paying attention because 425 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: of there's never been a four to three decision in 426 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 4: the death. 427 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 3: Row case ever. 428 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 4: My whole process takes off from there and John and 429 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 4: Proclaim got involved and it was just I can't tell 430 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 4: you all the things they did because I wasn't there. 431 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 4: I know, they worked a lot of hours going here 432 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 4: and going there, interviewing this withness, interview in netwitness, and 433 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 4: it was it takes more than two people, it takes 434 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 4: more than three people. I mean, it's a whole village 435 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 4: that's got. 436 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 3: To do this. 437 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 5: So, you know, we got involved early on through Marra 438 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 5: Mara and her wife Linda that Tim was referring to. 439 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 5: Mara called me and said, John, listen, you and Jason 440 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 5: are just starting this organization and this is the first 441 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 5: case out of the gate. And so we immediately started reviewing. 442 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 5: When Maria Leverett asked me to review something, I review something, 443 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 5: you know, and Tim's right. 444 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: We did a lot of investigation. 445 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: So, John, what, Yeah, was the key that led to 446 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: Tim being granted the second trial that ultimately turned out 447 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: to be so consequential. 448 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 449 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 5: The biggest thing that we turned up that really led 450 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 5: to this new trial was it was a direct Brady 451 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 5: violation from the state. We had these handwritten notes from 452 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 5: the DNA technician where she put in there that the 453 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 5: samples were contaminated and that was not disclosed to Tim's 454 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 5: defense team. We discovered that that was really the smoking gun, 455 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 5: so to speak, that led to the new trial. 456 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 4: Jenisi is telling me this whole time, Tim, you're eventually 457 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 4: going to get any trial you got. We just got 458 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 4: to find you to write lawyers. 459 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: So that was around twenty eleven when you find out 460 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: about the Brady violation and filed the petition with the 461 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: Arkansas Supreme Court. Then sometime around twenty thirteen, Patrick bank 462 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: I started representing Tim. 463 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 5: If you're going to have one lawyer in Arkansas, in 464 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 5: the whole state that you want on a case like this, 465 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 5: as Patrick Banker tomorrow and I talked to Patrick and 466 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 5: he took the case, and you know, we were able 467 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 5: to help him investigate the case and give a lot 468 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 5: of support. 469 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 4: You know, Patrick Banker at the time did a hell 470 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 4: of a lot of work. And sitting in the court 471 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 4: we came for hearing and there's nobody in the courtroom 472 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 4: but the prosecutor, me and my lawyers and you know, 473 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: a few family members. The judge at the time, he's 474 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 4: sitting there and he's reading out this stuff about this article, 475 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 4: about these cats, about that, and he says, as much 476 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 4: as it pains me, and I look up and I'm 477 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 4: like what's he fixing to say? And he kind of 478 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 4: goes along those lines, and he's fixing to do something 479 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 4: he really don't want to do. And he says, well, 480 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 4: we're gonna have to give mister how a new trial, 481 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 4: and I about fell over. I did not believe what 482 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 4: he had just said. And it went from there and 483 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 4: my second trial, like I said, and it was a 484 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 4: whole lot different from the first. It was like watching 485 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 4: a lawyer on TV. I mean, he was extremely thorough. 486 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 4: If there was a blood expert up there, you thought 487 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 4: he was a blood expert. If there was a gun 488 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 4: expert there, you thought Patrick was a gun expert. And 489 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 4: he wasn't the only one there. There was a lady 490 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 4: from the public finish Dimnsion named Kate Street. Excellent job, 491 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 4: and they went through each witness against me one by 492 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 4: one and discrediting. 493 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 5: At his second trial, he was charged with three capital crimes, 494 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 5: three first degree crimes, three second degree crimes, and after 495 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 5: a two and a half week trial, the jury got 496 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 5: the case the Friday night of Mother's Day weekend or 497 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 5: Fathers Mother's Day, Mother's Day weekend, the Friday night of 498 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 5: Mother's Day weekend, and we had some indication from jury 499 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 5: questions that there's probably going to be a compromise verdict, 500 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 5: and sure enough, that's what happened. So about midnight on 501 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,479 Speaker 5: Friday night, after a two and a half week trial, 502 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 5: they came down and acquitted him of all the first 503 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 5: degree charges, acquitted him of all the capital charges, convicted 504 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 5: him of second degree charges with the idea that his 505 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 5: sentence would amount to time served. And so that was 506 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 5: the compromise that the jury had reached after this long 507 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 5: ordeal on this holiday weekend. And we've confirmed that with jurors, 508 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 5: you know, who were supportive of Tim after that verdict, 509 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 5: who were sending him money and all kinds of things. 510 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 5: So Tim is actually not exonerated. It's one of these 511 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 5: imperfect situations, Jason, that we know so much about, where 512 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 5: he's off a death throw. He's a free man. He's 513 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 5: sitting here with us right now. But it's an imperfect solution. 514 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 4: And I want it known that they gave me that 515 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 4: I didn't accept anything. I'm still telling everybody I'm innocent. 516 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 4: It wasn't one of those things where okay, we got 517 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 4: this deal, here's what you gotta take. This is what 518 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 4: they came up with, and they asked specific questions. They 519 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 4: even signed a piece of papers and we expect for 520 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 4: him to go back to prison to get it number 521 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 4: and be let out within two weeks. This is what 522 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 4: we agreed to, which, of course that didn't happen. I 523 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 4: had to spend another two years in prison. After Autumn 524 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 4: Rigan Moroll, after my conviction, I became friends with a 525 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 4: few of the jurs and find out what it was 526 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 4: like in that jury ring. You know, it's just the 527 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 4: compromise was, Okay, we don't believe you did it, but 528 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 4: we believe you know who did. It's not telling them, 529 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 4: so you're not, you know, leaving here Scott free. It 530 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 4: was a compromise that if they hadn't made, they had 531 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 4: a hung jury. And the ones who were supporting me thought, 532 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 4: if he has to come back, what if he gets 533 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 4: another jury that convicts him again all together, you know, 534 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 4: everybody against him, So they want to take that chance. 535 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: And they also didn't want to stay Mother's Day weekend. 536 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 4: Yeah you know that, and that was exactly it. So 537 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 4: they wanted to go home to their kids. One girl 538 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 4: even broke down crowning it, and she was for me 539 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 4: at first. She changed her mind because she said she 540 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 4: was just tired of argument, and she wanted to go 541 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 4: home to her kids. She was willing to send me 542 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 4: to prison because she was tired and real to go 543 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 4: home to her kids, not because she believed because she 544 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 4: was on my side at first. 545 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just different, Tim. 546 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: Ultimately it took until over two years later. December thirteenth 547 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen, Tim Howard was finally granted parole, over 548 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: twenty years after his wrongful conviction, and released from prison 549 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: and home in time for Christmas. With all the villains 550 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: in this story and all the you know, all the 551 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: people who either mistreated you, let you down, who turned 552 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: out to be either corrupt or incompetent or dishonest, there 553 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: are a lot of heroes in this story too, and 554 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: Patrick certainly one of them. John the proclaimed justice people. 555 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: There are some jurors obviously who stuck by their guns 556 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: and in spite of the pressure I'm sure they felt 557 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: in the jury room. It's clear from hearing exactly what 558 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: happened that they knew you were innocent and they wanted 559 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: to do the right thing. But there are probably a 560 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: couple of people in there that just were refusing, and 561 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,719 Speaker 1: that's not excusable, but it's good to recognize the people 562 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: who come out in this story. Even the woman who 563 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: wrote to you gave you hope. I mean, there's a 564 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: lot of good from this and you're here as a 565 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: result of those people. So that's actually a good reason 566 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: to turn to John, Because before we get to the 567 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: wrap up of the show, John, can you talk about 568 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: proclaim justice, because you guys have been doing amazing work. 569 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: I would say, you know, batting above your weight or 570 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: whoever that phrase. 571 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 3: Is, right. 572 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, there have been quite a few exonerations that have 573 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: come from the work that you and Jason and your 574 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: team have done. I've enjoyed dealing with you, both as 575 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: a member of the board and also as someone who's 576 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: worked with you on cases. Talk about talk about proclaimed 577 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: justice and if you could tell people how they can 578 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: get involved, whether it's as simple as sending a check 579 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: or going to a website or getting involved on a 580 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: deeper level. 581 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 582 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 5: So we were born out of the West Memphis three case. 583 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 5: I was an activist in the West Memphis three case, 584 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 5: and once we got those guys out, Jason Baldwin and 585 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 5: I talked about starting We wanted to keep that network 586 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 5: together of notable people of you know, folks all over 587 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 5: the world who had supported that case, and we just 588 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 5: had the idea to start this organization and try to 589 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 5: keep that network together to advocate for other victims of 590 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 5: wrongful conviction. 591 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: So we started this after. 592 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 5: Jason and Damien and Jesse got out of prison, and 593 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 5: Tim was our first case, you know, right out of 594 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 5: the gate. So yeah, we are a small organization, but 595 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 5: we do good work. I've got great people on my team, 596 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 5: great investigators, lawyers in our network. You know, we try 597 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 5: to run very efficiently for our clients, and we try 598 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 5: purposefully not to take on too many because we're interested 599 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 5: in their post release condition and the whole thing. So 600 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 5: maybe sometimes our resources are spent on making sure their 601 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 5: lives are settled once they're out. How people can get 602 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 5: involved is go to proclaimsice dot org and you can 603 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 5: read about some of our cases that were currently working 604 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 5: on and how to get involved. These cases are very expensive, 605 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 5: they take a long time to work, you know, continued 606 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 5: financial support you can donate from the site as well, 607 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 5: that goes a long ways. So I would just encourage 608 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 5: people to visit our site and learn how to get 609 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 5: involved from there, you know, what him can speak to this. 610 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 5: A small thing that people can do that just goes 611 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 5: so far is writing the people who are in prison 612 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 5: for something they didn't do, so they can, you know, 613 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 5: write our clients. They can find the addresses and all 614 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 5: that stuff on our website. And I think that little 615 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 5: bit of encouragement goes a long way, and it's something 616 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 5: easy for people to do. 617 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: So that's proclaimed justice dot Orgon. 618 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 4: I would go a step further to say, even John 619 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 4: said with writing to people who are innocent, I'm gonna 620 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 4: say right to people here because the guys it's on 621 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 4: death row now, even the ones that are guilty, they're 622 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 4: not the same person that they were when they got 623 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 4: locked up. Some better, some are worse. Find the personally, 624 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 4: give them some kind of hope. I mean, because there 625 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 4: are some really really good guys there who made a 626 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 4: bad decision. I mean, and there's some there's just some 627 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 4: guy there who I really I consider friends. I mean, 628 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 4: if they was get out tomorrow, they're working with my home. 629 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: Tim. I'm glad you said what you said, because I'm 630 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: going to quote the great Brian Stevenson who said, I 631 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: believe everyone's better than the worst thing they've ever done. 632 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: So that being said, this is a part of our 633 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: show called Closing Arguments where I get to thank John 634 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: and Tim for taking time out of their day and 635 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: sharing their story and their wisdom and experience. And then 636 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: I get to kick back, turn my microphone off and 637 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: just listen and let each of you have the final word. 638 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: John Eure up first, so fire away Closing Arguments go. 639 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 5: One of the great honors of my life in this 640 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 5: work is sitting beside a guy like Tim Howard. I 641 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 5: tell people that, other than maybe my son being born, 642 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 5: the best days of my life are when I get 643 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 5: to sit beside somebody who we collectively have worked so 644 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 5: hard to get out. It's the most rewarding thing. And 645 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 5: it's important for people to know that this is just 646 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 5: not uncommon unfortunately. I mean, there's a lot of Tim 647 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 5: Howards in the world that are still in there, and 648 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 5: you know we're working hard for them. Join the fight 649 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 5: with us. Every little bit helps. You can follow along 650 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 5: with our endeavors Aproclaim Justice on Twitter and on Instagram. 651 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 5: There's always updates with what's going on with Tim and 652 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 5: Daniel and other folks that we freed and other folks 653 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 5: that we're working to. 654 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: Free and now over to you Tim for closing arguments. 655 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 4: All right, Well, people like proclaim they don't just drop 656 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 4: you when you get out. They still try to help 657 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 4: you along. I've had a few bumps in the road 658 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,479 Speaker 4: and they've been there for me, just like Linda Beset, 659 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,719 Speaker 4: my mom, and my relivered Janis Vaughn, Patrick Pinker, all 660 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 4: these people who came into my life, they're still there 661 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 4: and I just want to say thank you to all 662 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 4: of those people. Everybody that's in my life now. The 663 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 4: people at my job at le Support Innovations. I have 664 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 4: two great bosses, Ray and Jan and RACKI who believe 665 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 4: in second chances and have been so gracious and went 666 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 4: above board to support me as I go through what 667 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 4: I'm going through now. I just want to say thanks 668 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 4: and into even the people that I don't know who 669 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 4: helped me in different spots in different times. Please just 670 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 4: step in and do what you can when you can, 671 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:24,839 Speaker 4: and if I can help you in some way, let 672 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 4: me know. As far as being on social media, I 673 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 4: haven't got that down path yet. I mean, I got 674 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 4: a Facebook page, but I don't really post on it 675 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 4: a lot because there's always push back on I'll get 676 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 4: pushed back for this interview in some way somehow, But 677 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 4: that's cool too. I mean, you, nobody's gotta believe what 678 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 4: I say, but just believe the situation. 679 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review Wherever you 680 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud 681 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: donor to the NSIS project, and I I really hope 682 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and 683 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innocensproject dot 684 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd 685 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 686 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 687 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 688 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 689 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava 690 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one