1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. If you know something's good, you know it, 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: and the data says it's not that good. I still like, okay, 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: So the dad has got to catch up because I 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,159 Speaker 1: know it's good. And sometimes there's something that I know 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: isn't very good and the data would say that audiences 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: love it, and I would go, there's no way. This 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: is just like, audiences don't love this. I get that 9 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot of views, but this is not the thing. 10 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: So will you go with your gut? And that's what 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: I will go with my gut. Welcome to this episode 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: of Math and Magic. I'm Bob Pitman, and we're looking 13 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: at stories from the frontiers of marketing today. Ben layers 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: our guests. On first impression, you look at Ben, you 15 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: might say, wow, this is a pretty cool guy. He 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: must be a magician creative time for those who have 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: worked with him quickly find out that he actually lives 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: on the math side of the equation too. Regarding good business. 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: Ben as the CEO of Group nine Media, which includes 20 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: his first tech media venture and the place where he 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: made his mark through a list. It also includes Now 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: This Seeker and the Dodo, which was founded by his 23 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: super smart sister. Is he family business? Full disclosure. I've 24 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: known been or back then he was known as Benji 25 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: Dare I say that? And I've known him since he 26 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: was very young. His dad and I are very good 27 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: pals and have been for a long long time. His 28 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: dad's super smart, overachieving jeans must have worked somewhere there, 29 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: and we've all had some wonderful adventures together. And Pilot Group, 30 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: which was my private equity fund, backed through a list 31 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: in the early day. So I've been able to see 32 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: Ben through this whole thing and been so impressed with 33 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: so many years. So they'll leave anything out. You didn't 34 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: mention how handsome I am, But well, I assume we'll 35 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: get into that. No one can see this. Let's move 36 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: to you in sixties seconds. Don't think too long to 37 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: say the first thing that comes to your mind. Okay, 38 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: I can do that. Do you prefer pizza or tacos? 39 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: Pizza sweater or hoodie sweater? Unfortunately I've gotten old. You 40 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: have gotten old. I'm embarrassed. This is going poorly. iPad 41 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: or Kendall Kindall New York or Philly, New York Mets 42 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: are Yankees, Mets Ninja's or Pirates Ninja's sunrise or sunsets. 43 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 1: Sun sets. I like a sunrise, but I don't get 44 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: them as off only when you stay up all night exactly. 45 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: Secret talent, secret talent when we were in college, and 46 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: I can, I can, I give a longer instwer. So 47 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: when I was in college, I we did talent shows 48 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: and I did them with Bo your son, and my 49 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: secret talent was balancing a broom on my finger because 50 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: I didn't have any secret talents. That is a pathetic 51 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: thing to admit, but that's true. Place to go to 52 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: find out who you are. Back home with my family, 53 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: smartest person you know, not your dad, my wife for job. 54 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: First job was working for Andre Blas at his boutique 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: hotel company. Historical idol Alexander Hamilton came to mind. So 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: I guess I'll go with that favorite company you've invested in, 57 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily the most profitable, favorite company, the company that 58 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: I have the closest relationship with his Casper Mattress company. 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: Favorite company wish you had invested in but didn't. Well, 60 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: we've passed on lots of great companies. I think probably 61 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: the one that I feel silliest about is Harry's only 62 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: because I'm friends with Jeff who would play you in 63 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: the movie of your Life, the guy who played Jesse 64 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: and Breaking Bad. Favorite smell pizza? No, my favorite smell 65 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: is my kid's best live concert. Obviously I heard music festival. 66 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: Who I love that? What topic can you talk about forever? 67 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: The media business or my kids again? Okay, so let's 68 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: get into you. Tell us about starting thrill List. I 69 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: don't get to think about this very often. It's also 70 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: appropriate that I'm doing with you. So starting thrill List 71 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: was I think the way a lot of businesses get started, 72 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: as somebody build something that they want to exist for themselves. 73 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: I was new to New York, working in a job 74 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: that was interesting, but I knew wasn't necessarily where my 75 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: sort of heart was in the long term, and I 76 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: became sort of enamored with the idea that there wasn't 77 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: a city guy that spoke my language. You know, my 78 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: mother and I read the same city Guide to make 79 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: a decision about where we would go and what restaurants 80 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: we would eat at, or you know, things that we 81 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: would experience. And this was at a time when there 82 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: was a cultural shift happening where people were moving from 83 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: really valuing what you possessed towards valuing what you did 84 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: and the experiences that you had. And I felt that 85 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: I needed better information and more trusted information, and more 86 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: personalized information about how to spend my time and money 87 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: and started writing terrible, really terrible emails to friends about 88 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: stuff that I discovered that I thought was fun. I 89 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: did it with a college buddy, you know, one of 90 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: my good friends from school, Adam Rich. He and I 91 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: would go out and have drinks and eat food and 92 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: do silly stuff and record it and send it out 93 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: to people, and we actually started to get a little 94 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: bit of a following, and people started doing the things 95 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: that we would recommend, And so we write about a 96 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: restaurant and the place would have a line out the 97 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: door the next night. We started to think it was 98 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: sort of interesting that people were taking our advice. Only 99 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: then started to do a little bit more research on 100 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: what a business model might be, and unbeknownst to us, 101 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: came across Daily Candy, which had built a very large 102 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: business doing the exact same thing for women, and unbelievably 103 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: we didn't a at first know it existed and be 104 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: didn't know that it was owned by you, which is 105 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: the most insane and sort of serendipitous and funny and 106 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: bizarre way to come to something. The next thing we 107 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: did was called you and said can we come over 108 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: and get your advice. We know Daily Candy has been 109 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: super successful. We've built this email list for guys that 110 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: is doing something similar, albeit at a pathetically small scale. 111 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: And you took interest in what we were doing, and 112 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: you know, the rest is history. You know, it's interesting 113 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: because maybe I've never told you this. Everybody kept coming 114 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: and saying, we want to do Daily Candy for men, 115 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: but they all wanted to be about fashion and things 116 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: that women are interested in. You and Adam came in 117 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: and what sort of I think blew us away was 118 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: You said, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what 119 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: men are interested in. That's what women are interested here's 120 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: the equivalent for men. Can you tell us a couple 121 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: of those things that you covered, Like Daily Candy, you 122 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: covered sort of one thing per day, one thing per day. 123 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: Tell us about a few of them. I mean, look, 124 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: we were not scientists. Let's call us spade to spade. 125 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: I think our first article was about a Mexican restaurant 126 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: that had been open for several years that we wrote 127 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: about as if it was a brand new thing, because 128 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: it was Sinco de Mayo, but it was new to us, 129 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: and I guess it was new to enough people that 130 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: people took interest in it. When we started to really 131 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: get our feet under us is when restaurants or new 132 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: places that opened started to understand that we were we 133 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: were able to move audiences, and so we went from 134 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: having to sort of curate what existed into getting access 135 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: to things before other people knew about them. And so 136 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: at that point, where was a daily email was something 137 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: where if you were really curious and you really wanted 138 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: to be on the cutting edge of what was happening, 139 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: we sort of became a must read because we were 140 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: providing breaking information. It wasn't breaking political news. It was 141 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: a taco stand was opening, But if you were really 142 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: passionate about living that kind of life, we were able 143 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: to bring you that information first. And then we were 144 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: maniacal about creating a brand and a persona that was 145 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: different than the way that other people covered the category. 146 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: And if we wrote about a restaurant the same week 147 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: that New York Magazine and New York Times and zag 148 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: It and Daily Can and a bunch of other reputable 149 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: places did, and if you picked up the thrill List 150 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: review or the thrillst recommendation, you would immediately know that 151 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: it was thrill List. After a while, we were able 152 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: to package it up and build it in a repeatable, 153 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: scalable way that enabled us to not have to edit 154 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: every single piece of content ourself for myself, but create 155 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: something that could be the voice of a brand, which 156 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: you know, as you know, any great brand is all 157 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: about what is that voice, what's that mission, why does 158 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: it exist? And how can you make it something that 159 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: even at scale, can be replicated. I think I remember 160 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: it was either the Pitch or it was one of 161 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: the first news letters you found flip flops that had 162 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: a beer opener. It was called the Fanning. But every 163 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: time I would read thrill List, I chuckled out loud. 164 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: Our lawyer at our investment group came in one day 165 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: and do you know what those guys are doing? They 166 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: had a party last night and it was a hatchet 167 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: throwing party. Do you remember that? Yes? I do remember this. 168 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: That was sort of set that. I don't know that 169 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: our lawyers would allow us to do that. At this point. 170 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: We had a lot of fun. It was it was 171 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: a different time. I mean, right, we like the world 172 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: was a little bit looser. Who are you throwing hatchets 173 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: at random party goers who signed nothing? They were on 174 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: a wheel spinning and someone was just flinging hatchets against 175 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: the wood behind them. Yeah, it was probably not a 176 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: great idea, and first time investors ever called and said, 177 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, maybe this is not a good idea. So 178 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: you were what major political science? Political science? Okay, political science. 179 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: Guy had no real training in business. Yet you turned 180 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: out very quickly to be this very astute CEO. And 181 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: one of the things I observed was you made quick decisions. 182 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: You would say we're gonna do this, and it's gonna 183 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: happen here, and then two months later you go, they 184 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: didn't deliver. I fired them. I'm trying again. You never 185 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: hung on to these old ideas or what you hope for. 186 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: You were very decisive. You help people to real clear standards. 187 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: Where do you think you learned that from? Well, I 188 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: don't know if that was a set up or not, 189 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: but I quoted you as recently as this week on 190 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: the twenty rule, which is an old thing that you 191 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: used to talk about that I talk about all the time, 192 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: which is this idea that twenty percent of the time 193 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: the things that you do or the decisions that you 194 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: make in business are obviously right. Immediately you hire someone 195 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: who's a superstar, you launch your product that's a hit, 196 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: and you know you have something good. And twenty of 197 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: the time you do something that is very easy to kill. 198 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: It's just not working and there's not a lot of 199 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: emotional baggage with it. It's easy to sort of get 200 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: out of the way. And sixty percent of the things 201 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: that you do are somewhere in between, and you can 202 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: rationalize why you're gonna keep doing them, and you can 203 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: also rationalize why they're not big hits. And the advice 204 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: that you gave early was get stuff out of that 205 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: six and into one of the twenties as fast as 206 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: you can, because the sixtent is what kills you. That's 207 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: the stuff that it doesn't really deliver profit or it's 208 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: vanity metrics, but it's not anything that really drives the 209 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: substance of what's gonna power your business forward. And that's 210 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: a philosophy that I have very much taken to heart. 211 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: That's something that is an operating philosophy that we now 212 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: have at Group nine around how we make decisions, which 213 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: is mediocre stuff can't have a place here. That's something 214 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: that you taught me, frankly, and something that I try 215 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: to institutionalize in our business and sometimes succeeding, sometimes failed. 216 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: I no idea. I thought you that I've always given 217 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: you credits and wow, look at him here, but you 218 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: know that, I mean, do you still talk about of 219 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: course I do weed the garden. It's not a clear winner. 220 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: It's a loser by definition. Instead of defining stuff that's 221 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: not a clear loser as a winner, that's in a 222 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: more concise way of doing it. Next time, I'll say that, 223 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: how do you balance quick decision versus giving people, executives 224 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: or whoever in your organization the time to make some 225 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: mistakes and grow. There's not a rule that's a fuel 226 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: one for me, which is if you don't actually think 227 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: the person is going to get there, but it would 228 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: just be really convenient if they did, you're probably better 229 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: off ripping that band aid. You just have to sort 230 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: of really be willing to give yourself a good look 231 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: in the mirror. And by the way, I'm sometimes I'm 232 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: very good at this, and sometimes I'm very bad at this. 233 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: But how introspective can you be and can you really 234 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: acknowledge when you're just delaying the inevitable? Others came to 235 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: knock you off. You've got success very early with Thrillist. 236 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: This was like wow product and up King Urban Daddy 237 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: and a couple of others. How did you react to it? 238 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: How did you defend your turf? It's a It's a 239 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: good question. I think that we first and foremost the 240 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: way that you defend is you just deliver a better product. 241 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: For a long time, I think we delivered a definitively 242 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: better product. I think there are actually moments where we 243 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: you know, you hit a rough spot or a company 244 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: gets a little bit of momentum, and there were times 245 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: where I didn't know that we necessarily had a better product. 246 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: But I think that we had the support of our 247 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: investor base helping us whether more difficult times, which I 248 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: am still a huge believer in. And I also think 249 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, a lot of this 250 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: is just will power. None of this is rocket science. 251 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: In particular the media business. If you're smart enough and 252 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: you're able to get a group of smart enough people 253 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: to sort of believe in something and work together you 254 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: can will your way to success. We didn't have any 255 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: tricks up our sleeve. This was just refusing to quit 256 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: for a long time. You've always been open to a 257 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: lot of ideas. I think initially looking at you, I thought, 258 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: maybe that's good. You're young. But now let's see you 259 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: at your age and you're still young, but not as young, 260 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: and you're still open to new ideas. In that early period, 261 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: what was one idea that you say that definitely worked, 262 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: and what idea was one to say that definitely failed 263 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: and why do you think that happened. One of the 264 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: definite things that worked was a strategy around how we 265 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: were going to go and expand market to market. It 266 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: wasn't a novel idea. It was something that Daily Candy 267 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: had done, but we were able to stamp out and 268 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: repeat a process of how we would launch a market, 269 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: how we would partner to accumulate subscribers pretty quickly, how 270 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: we would leverage our existing advertiser base to support a 271 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: new market that we launched. And so I think that 272 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: we built a little bit of a machine to go 273 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: and and expand geographically. That worked early on when did 274 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: you realize through a list that arrived. I think I 275 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: realized Thrillis had arrived when we got bigger than Daily 276 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: Candy had ever been. That was certainly a moment, an 277 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: unbelievable moment for us, when this thing that we had 278 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: always aspired to be, we weren't able to use their 279 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: blueprint anymore to grow because we had done what they 280 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: had done. That was probably the moment. At the same time, 281 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: I really have to admit I have moments where I 282 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: think we've arrived, and then the goal posts move so 283 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: quickly that it's very rare that I get a minute, 284 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: even a second to really feel like we've arrived. But 285 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: that moment when we passed Daily Candy, I think was 286 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: one special one. I think when we created Group nine 287 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: and merged brands together was another one. And now the 288 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: best moments I get for sort of celebrating that arrival 289 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: or success is when we when we have town halls 290 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: actually so nothing external, but when we get time with 291 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: the whole company and get to sort of take inventory 292 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: on what we're doing and see everybody in one space. 293 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: We do it every six months. We did it yesterday, 294 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: which is why it stopped of mind. But those are 295 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: really exciting and you know, slightly emotional to feel the 296 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: momentum in the progress and where we're at. Those are 297 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: now the moments, but they're fleeting. So advertisers, how did 298 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: you so advertisers? Started out as the CEO running the company, 299 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: but you also start out as the face to the 300 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: advertising community. You were your time talking advertisers. Yeah, early 301 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: on at least, how did you break advertising? Because you 302 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: talk to people's starting businesses to get a little bit 303 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: of consumer attraction and they can't seem to make money. 304 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: You did and sort of surprisingly well early on? What 305 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: did you do that you think is unique or responsible 306 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: for them? And I think there are moments in time 307 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: where things are easier or harder. I think when we launched, 308 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: the Tide was a little different, and Daily Candy was 309 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: this rising, exciting proposition. They had popularized email marketing for 310 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: our consumer audience. They had pioneered the dedicated email and 311 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: some formats that were really effective and that the advertising 312 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: community leaned into. And so we got to ride those 313 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,479 Speaker 1: coattails very directly. I mean, the way that we prospected 314 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: was we looked at people who were spending money with 315 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: Daily Candy, and we went to them and said, we're 316 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: doing that but for guys. And that was how we 317 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: got a lot of our early business. And today you 318 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: still spend that much time with advertisers. I spend a 319 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about our advertising business. I spend 320 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: less time out in market in specific meetings. I do 321 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: it in chunk. So I'll do it, you know, when 322 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: we're out and can or C s or. But my 323 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: team is incredible and so thoughtful and so creative. You know, 324 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: I can still add my value here and there through 325 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: a list has gone from frat boy humor would throw 326 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: hatchets at people at our parties. Two. I hate to 327 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: use this word sophisticated. Well let's not. I would also 328 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: hate for you to use that word. Okay, let's think 329 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: of something else other than sophisticated. But it's certainly evolved. Yes, 330 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: How do you evolve the brand like that without leaving 331 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: your consumers behind or replacing one audience for another. It's 332 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: something that we struggle with and talk about a lot, 333 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: particularly these days. It's something that's just front of mind. 334 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: The brand grew up for a while with us, just 335 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: because we didn't know how to stop it from growing 336 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: up with us. At a certain point, the company got 337 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: bigger and we went into other businesses and I let 338 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: it go. It was no longer you know, a reflection, 339 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: a reflection of me, thank you. That was what I 340 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: was looking for. The things that we realized over time 341 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: were the lifestyle that we were promoting and celebrating was 342 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: again it was about experiences and about every day being 343 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: better than the last, and doing the stuff that you love. 344 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: That's not for guys, that's just for people. That's a 345 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: much broader audience. And so when we realized that our 346 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: mission was one where we didn't have to contort it 347 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: in order to make it applicable to a broader audience, 348 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: we gave ourselves permission to let it be for a 349 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: broader audience, and that has served us well. Just hold 350 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: on a second, because we've got so much more to 351 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: talk about. We'll be back after a quick break. Welcome 352 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: back to Math and Magic. We're here with Ben Lair. 353 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: You have a bigger than life dad, Ken Larry. He's 354 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: a chairman of BuzzFeed, Blade, and god knows what else. 355 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: He has always been on the cutting edge. He Foundedfington 356 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: Post with Arianna Huffington. He was in the c suite 357 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: at a O L and it's Heyday at time one 358 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: or two before that, he had a huge communications company, 359 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: and indeed he was working with Microsoft and Bill Gates 360 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: when they sort of became icons. Right before I go, well, 361 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: what did you learn from your dad? He's really good 362 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: at just cutting to the core of an issue and 363 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: doing away with a lot of the waste and getting 364 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: to what's important. And so that's something that I try 365 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: to do as well. So that's the thing in business, 366 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: But you know, the business advice is secondary. The thing 367 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: that I've taken from him is how to prioritize business 368 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: visa v. Your family, Because I'm a much better business 369 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: person when business comes second. If I'm settled with my 370 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: family and I put my kids to bed every night 371 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: and like in that rhythm and and always putting family first, 372 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: then it allows me to put business in a much 373 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: healthier place and make much more rational decisions. So your 374 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: dad was, I know, a great role model for you there. 375 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: The family always came first to him. Um and when 376 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: your mother was away, uh, he would sneak you off 377 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: to mc anmods to have the forbidden foods. True. Talking 378 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: about your family, how do you think about work family balance? 379 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: And what do you recommend to the people you work 380 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: with and the people who you give advice to. I 381 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: don't have a specific like here's how you should spend 382 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: your time, but I would just say that family needs 383 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: to come first. For me, what that means is I 384 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: put my kids to bed. I'm with them every morning, 385 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: and then I put my kids to bed four out 386 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: of five week nights, and then by the way, I 387 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: go back out. So tonight I will go home, I'll 388 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: be home before seven o'clock. I'll put my kids in bed, 389 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: I'll have half an hour with them, and then I 390 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: have worked dinner. But that for me is like a 391 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: really important thing that grounds me. And also and with 392 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: my kids at seven in the morning, I don't want 393 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: to say I'll see tomorrow. That's how I've built my 394 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: calendar and how I've structured my work life. And I 395 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: have two jobs investing in running Group nine. You know, 396 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: my days are booked to the second and I book 397 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: my family into that day. It's really easy to just 398 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: let the calendar fill up and not make that a priority. 399 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: But that's something that I won't I won't do. Do 400 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: you put your phone away when you're with family? Yeah? 401 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: I try to, and there are days when I forget 402 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: to do your kids remind you? My kids don't remind 403 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: me to put my phone away, except my kids want 404 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: to pull it out of my hand and play with it, 405 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: which is very depressing. We live in a confusing world 406 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: right now. The addiction of technology is is horrifying, and 407 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: so I really have to set boundaries for myself. I 408 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: don't sleep with my phone in my room anymore. Do 409 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: you have an alarm on your phone? No, I have 410 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: an alarm clock. I'm like, what from blood eyed? I 411 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: hope it's a clock radio. It's a clock radio, except 412 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: I don't know how to set it, so it just 413 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: goes set it to Elvis Duran in the morning, or 414 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: the Breakfast Club or one of our other great shows 415 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: here in New York. And so about ten years ago, 416 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: INC Magazine picked you as one of their thirty under thirty. 417 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: But it was also about the time you started Layer 418 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: of Ventures with your dad. Tell me about starting that 419 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: and how you weave that into your jay job. Running 420 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: thrill list. New York was at an interesting point ten 421 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: years ago where New York wasn't a TechTown yet and 422 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: I was starting thrill lists and my dad had started 423 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: huf PO as you mentioned, and my dad actually just 424 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: had a super interesting insight, which was your friends or 425 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: my friends were leaving good schools and instead of wanting 426 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: to go and work on Wall Street or work in consulting, 427 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: they wanted to go work at startups or start companies. 428 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: And he said, that's crazy. I've been working in New 429 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: York for thirty years. I've never seen any smart young 430 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: kids want to go start companies. There's something happening right now. 431 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: I said, that's a very nice idea. Can you leave 432 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: me alone? I have to go back to work. And 433 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: he said we should invest in some of these companies, 434 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: and I said, okay, I'll let you know if I 435 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: see any companies that are interesting. We were making little investments, 436 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: and then a few months later we looked at the 437 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: investments that we had made and we figured that they 438 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: were actually pretty interesting. So we decided to raise a 439 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: little fund. You were one of our first investors, and 440 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: it was really friends and family who gave us a 441 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: little bit of money, and we use that money to 442 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: hire one person to sort of help professionalize and institutionalize 443 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: what we were doing since we both had other jobs. 444 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: It's just so happened that that vintage was BuzzFeed and 445 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: Warby Parker and this awesome generation of New York startups, 446 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: but in particular iconic consumer startups. And so what happened 447 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: was we got our brand and our name associated with 448 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: these companies that became sexy and exciting, and so right time, 449 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: right place, we suddenly so I had everybody who wanted 450 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: to go build the Warby Parker of whatever calling us, 451 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: and eight funds later, it's worked. It's been amazing, and 452 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: we built this great team and we've been able to build, 453 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: you know, arguably the strongest brand in early stage New 454 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: York investing, which is nuts. It's impressive. It's impressive. So 455 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: contrast being an investor with being an executive. My best 456 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: and worst days are being an executive. It's harder, uh, 457 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: but when it works, it feels good. So that's the 458 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: short version of it. I think that investing you don't 459 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: feel that. So if you make a sure bet and 460 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: it fails, you go. We make an amazing investment and 461 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: it fails, I go, they screwed it up. Of course, 462 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: I don't like to lose, and I'm so happy when 463 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: these companies become big and special and The reason I 464 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: said Casper earlier is because that was one where we 465 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: from minute one were the lead investor, and we don't 466 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: take board seats sort of as a principle because of 467 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: the number of investments we had, but that's the one 468 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: board seat I ever took from day one, and that's 469 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: turned out to be such a fabulous company that it's 470 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: been just a really cool journey to be on. Do 471 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: you sleep on Casper, of course, and if you don't, 472 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: that's come on. I know Neal would kill me if 473 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: I could thank you. So what's your investment process? It's 474 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: very collaborative. There are four partners, three managing partners for 475 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: total partners, and then an investment team of five other 476 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: folks who are all really smart and really different different 477 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: areas of interest, areas of expertise, generations, and so we 478 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: have these interesting perspectives. And then we have a three 479 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 1: person platform team and a two person finance team, and 480 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: we all have a partner meeting together and we talk 481 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: about what we're looking at together. We don't do any 482 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: deals that multiple partners haven't met with. It's not a 483 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: consensus driven model, so anyone can lead a deal, any 484 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: partner can any partner vito a deal. Any partner can 485 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: veto a deal. We don't formally use table pounds and vetos. 486 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: We sort of agree to disagree and then someone goes 487 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: forward with an investment or not. You know, we make 488 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: about twenty to twenty it's called twenty new investments a year, 489 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: plus a bunch of follow ons, and so there's a 490 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,719 Speaker 1: lot of velocity. If we love something, we'll do it. 491 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: We try not to invest in competitive companies. Were incredibly 492 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: founder centric. The place where I think we really win 493 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: is in having empathy because we know how hard this is. 494 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: I know how terrifying it can be to build something. 495 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: And so when times are good, everyone loves their investors 496 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: because their investors are cheerleaders. When times are bad, that's 497 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: when you really understand what kind of an investor you have. 498 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: And I think that we are pretty understanding and sensitive. 499 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: We don't like it when stuff goes wrong. And obviously 500 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: if we think someone is being fraudulent or really irresponsible, 501 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: that's not good. But if people are really trying hard 502 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: and doing the best they can and things don't work out, like, 503 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: that's okay, and we'll back you next time again. So 504 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: you're an operator, yeah, everybody there is basically an operator. 505 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: As investors, how do you bring that expertise to bear 506 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: on your investment so you're not just money. It's a 507 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: great question. So there's a few ways that we do it. 508 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: One is real institutionalized structure. We have a support team. 509 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: We're creating events for people to meet one another. We 510 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: have forums where ers are asking each other, in some 511 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: cases really hard questions, in other cases recommendations for a vendor. 512 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: We have a full time recruiter senior recruiter on our 513 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: team who parachutes into companies, and so when we invest 514 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: over the next few quarters, it's very likely that we'll 515 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: send a recruiter in for three months part time to 516 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: help you build out your executive team, get your feet 517 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: under you in the early days. We have a process 518 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: for leaning in really hard around helping a company prepare 519 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: for its next round of fundraising as it relates to 520 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: pitch practice and building decks, and so there's this sort 521 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: of more structured piece, and then there's the much less 522 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: structured piece, which is how are we there when they 523 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 1: need advice from somebody who's maybe seen this before and 524 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: who's going to have an incentive to really care and 525 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: so we're available seven and I never know in a 526 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 1: day whether I'm going to talk to one of our 527 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: founders or whether I'm going to talk to I mean, 528 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: I might talk to none, I might talk to four. 529 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: But generally speaking, the model is that companies graduate weight 530 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: and so we're with a company through a seed round, 531 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: they raise later stage financing. They have a Series A 532 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: or Series B investor who owns and just put a 533 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: bunch of money in, and there is somebody else who's 534 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: the sort of primary board member. And that's what enables 535 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: us to overtime build a larger and larger portfolio and 536 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: still feel like we can deliver the level of service 537 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: that we owe the founders. So there are people listening today. 538 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure we have an idea. They've got their thrill 539 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: list in their head. What is it that grabs an 540 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: investor and what is it that turns them off? I mean, 541 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: it's a little bit like dating. You just feel it 542 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: or you don't look. You need to be really passionate 543 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: about what you do, really knowledgeable about what you do. 544 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: There's a balance that we like to see around having 545 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: very strong conviction for what you want to build, but 546 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: not so much conviction that you seem unwilling to examine 547 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: other ideas or viewpoints. We sort of believe that every 548 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: one of these companies has to pivot. It's some point 549 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: in some way, shape or form, and so you want 550 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: to see that sort of flexibility or malleability, but not 551 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: so much that they come in and they say we 552 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: want to build this thing and it's black, and I 553 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: go what about white? They go yeah, yeah, wait, So 554 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: that's the that's the balance. It's just somebody who has 555 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: a head on their shoulders and a belief in what 556 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: they want to build and can articulate why they want 557 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: to build and why it's a good opportunity, and you 558 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: believe that they're going to walk through walls to get 559 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: it done. But I will say being more prepared and 560 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: having better materials and having a vision for what the 561 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: business is gonna look like. And you know, if you 562 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: want to raise one and a half million dollars, I'd 563 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: like to understand why that's the right amount of money 564 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: and how long it's gonna get you and what the 565 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: different outcomes might be from that. But I'll forgive some 566 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: lack of technical knowledge or business savvy if it's somebody 567 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: who I think has such a keen understanding of the 568 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: consumer that they're going after the market that they're entering, 569 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: so there's no formula. What's more important as an investor, 570 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: the person or the idea. I think that the person 571 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: is more important. Right now, we're investing in people we 572 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: love with an idea we like. Okay, And we talked 573 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: about this for a long time in the partner meeting 574 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 1: because we said, oh God, they're so compelling, they're so smart, 575 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: they're what a great team. This market's not awesome. Yeah, 576 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: but they're gonna pivot and we love them and we 577 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: don't want to miss being in business with them. And 578 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: even if this isn't the one that gets there, the 579 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: next one will be. And if we take a slightly 580 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: longer term approach, these are people when we want to 581 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: be in business with. You would never say that about 582 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: an idea and go, uh, this idea is gonna be awesome, 583 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: even though we think these people are terrible in fraudsters. 584 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: This podcast is about math and magic. Let's talk specifically 585 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: about the math. How much were you looking at data 586 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: in the early thrillerst years, as much as anybody else 587 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: doing what we were doing at that point. What kind 588 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: of information did you look at to inform you besides 589 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: your friends say wow, Ben, you're doing a great job. 590 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: I mean, there was a lot of anecdotal information about 591 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: the impact that we had on the business says that 592 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: we covered. That was really important because there was something 593 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: in that that measured trust. You know, we did a 594 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:13,479 Speaker 1: lot of studying click through rates, share rates, and unsubscribed rates. 595 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: We did, I think, as good a job as we 596 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: could have with the resources that we had to sort 597 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: of study our subscription funnel and to look at the 598 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: efficacy of some of the partnerships that we built. But 599 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: in reality, it was just a much less data rich 600 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: world back then, and so Thrillist was built with enough 601 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: data that we weren't blind, but a lot more of 602 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: the magic than the math. Today, you're running a lot 603 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: of businesses, they're all in this data world. What data 604 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: do you look at? And what's so important to building 605 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: these businesses? Now you know there's enough data you can 606 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: you can hang yourself with it, right, And so now 607 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: the question isn't are we using data? The question sometimes 608 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: is are we using too much data? And what do 609 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: you think? Well? I think that the answer is often 610 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: that we are using too much data. I don't know that. 611 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: I would say that in our specific business, we're using 612 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: too much data. If you know something's good, you know it, 613 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: and the data says it's not that good, I still like, okay, 614 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: So the data has got to catch up because I 615 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: know it's good. And sometimes there's something that I know 616 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: isn't very good and the data would say that audiences 617 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: love it, and I would go, there's no way this 618 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: is just like, audiences don't love this. I get that 619 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of views, but this is not the thing. 620 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: So will you go with your gut? And I will 621 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: go with my gut. That's on one side of the business. 622 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: I think in the advertising business right now, data is 623 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: a terrifying, terrifying thing. Why Well, just because everything in 624 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: digital is just right to the lowest common denominator. Almost 625 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: all money being spent digitally is being spent blindly. Do 626 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: you think Google Search gets credit for a lot of 627 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: attribution that they didn't cause? Look, I think Google is 628 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: a good ad product, but we're in a last click 629 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: attribution world. So whoever's got the last click totally totally, totally, totally, 630 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,479 Speaker 1: totally crazy. And by the way, if I'm a Marketer. 631 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: It's hard to turn off the drug that some of 632 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: these things create. You started out with the newsletter, somewhere 633 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: along the way you added video, get it all sorts 634 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: of stuff. Talk to me about audio, obviously, I've got 635 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: a self interest here, But podcast, Alexa smart speaker, How 636 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: does it all fit together? And what do you think 637 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: that is telling us about the marketplace? Yeah? Well, I 638 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: mean starting with podcast, I think it's just a super 639 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: compelling medium and it's something that we're investing in and 640 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: looking at doing and hopefully we're gonna do some stuff 641 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: with you guys, which is really exciting. The data is 642 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly clear that this is a preferred format for young 643 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: folks to get content, and it's a big part of 644 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: their commute. And I think it works well with the 645 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: kind of narrative storytelling that we do and the kind 646 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: of voices and personalities that we have, and the kind 647 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: of brands that we have. So I'm a big believer 648 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: in that. Let's get to future of the media business. 649 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: Where do you think all this goes? I think it's 650 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: all Number one on Alexa mm yeah, number two. Weather. 651 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: I wake up and do weather, and then my kids 652 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: listen to Mo wanna We'll get them. Okay, you'll love it. 653 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: That's the deal um future of the media business. I 654 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: think that more consolidations coming. I think more consolidation up 655 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: in the stratosphere is coming. I think more consolidation in 656 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: digital is coming. I think content creators and pipe owners 657 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: continue to join forces. I think if you're a consumer, 658 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 1: it's awesome. There's gonna be a lot of great content 659 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: for a long time. And you have companies that don't 660 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: even care about the media business who are going to 661 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: spend billions and billions of dollars underwriting content to get 662 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: you to do things on their platform that have nothing 663 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: to do with advertising or content at Allso great time. 664 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: If you are a consumer, if you're in the media business, 665 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: it's it's a chow vallenging time. There's always going to 666 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: be good businesses to be built on brands that people love, 667 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: and so it may not be as simple as it 668 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: used to be with dual revenue stream model, but I 669 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: think media companies are gonna have to be good at 670 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: a lot more things simultaneously than they used to be 671 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: right now, and they're gonna need to figure out ways 672 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: to directly engage their audiences and sell things to them 673 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: while also selling advertising, and also creating experiences, and licensing 674 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: and selling I P and working with the distribution platforms. 675 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a it's a confusing time, but 676 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: I think it's a very hard time to be in 677 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: a small independent media business in any category. This is 678 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: math and magic. Who is the greatest mathematician, you know, 679 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: that person who plays the math side of the equation best. 680 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: There is a guy on our team who runs data 681 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: and analytics and research and who's one of our executive 682 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: team members. Names is Shesh Patel. And he is somebody 683 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: who everybody in our company looks at as being an 684 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 1: amazing math leader. Who's the greatest magician? Who's that creative person? 685 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: You know? You still gotta go back to like Steve Jobs, right, 686 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: he might be a little bit horrified at what the 687 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: creation is being used for now, but that changes the 688 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: world Like nothing has ever changed the world. There's still 689 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: nobody that's done anything close to that as far as 690 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: I'm concerned. Ben Lair, CEO of Group nine, founder of 691 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: Thrill List, someone who's gone from being young turk to 692 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: establishment one of the real geniuses of the business. And 693 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: thanks great being here. Here's a few lessons I take 694 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: away from this episode with bem use. The of the 695 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: decisions are easy to green light. Of the decisions are 696 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: easy to kill. But SI is the gray zone that 697 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: takes up your time. Get things out of that middle. 698 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: Decisions about people can be hard, but it's better to 699 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: make quick decisions and not just postponed the inevitable. And finally, 700 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: Ben's philosophy is that it's more important to invest in 701 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: the person and the idea. A talented person or team 702 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: can always pivot, and you don't want to miss an 703 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: opportunity to work with the right people. Thanks for listening. 704 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: I'm Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so 705 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: much for listening to Math and Magic, a production of 706 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. 707 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our 708 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: wonderful talent, which is no small feat. Nikki Eatre for 709 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: pulling research, Bill Plax and Michael Asar for their recording help, 710 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: our editor Ryan Murdoch, and of course Gail Raoul, Eric Angel, 711 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: Noel Mango and everyone who helped bring this show to 712 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: your ears. Until next time,