Speaker 1: I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing Dominant Stories, created by
Speaker 1: Shawn land Audio in partnership with the Self Steam Project.
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to be so in on
Speaker 1: something that you like, listen to the albums constantly, and
Speaker 1: you read all the literature you can, and it's all
Speaker 1: you talk about, and it overtakes your your thoughts, right,
Speaker 1: it just consumes you. So when I see that happening
Speaker 1: to something that I was a part of, my God,
Speaker 1: I feel so lucky. Hey, I'm Jess Weener and this
Speaker 1: is Dominant Stories, the podcast that helps us reclaim and
Speaker 1: rewrite the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, about our bodies,
Speaker 1: our beauty, our creativity, and our identities. Hey everybody, I'm
Speaker 1: Jess and welcome back to Dominant Stories. You've heard me
Speaker 1: talk a lot on the show about the relationship between
Speaker 1: the stories that we tell ourselves and the way that
Speaker 1: we creatively express ourselves out in the world, because I
Speaker 1: believe that when our dominant stories run our lives, when
Speaker 1: they've gone unexamined, they can actually stop us from taking
Speaker 1: creative risks that bring us closer to a life that
Speaker 1: we long for. And by the way, that could be
Speaker 1: in the arts and sports and business and education, because
Speaker 1: spoiler alert, I actually believe we all express ourselves creatively
Speaker 1: in some fashion, But how do you manage that inner
Speaker 1: narrative so that it doesn't get in the way of
Speaker 1: your genius? So on today's show, I am going to
Speaker 1: be talking to a real life musical genius who also
Speaker 1: happens to be a dear childhood friend of mine, and
Speaker 1: that is Alex Lackamore. Alex is an award winning music director, arranger,
Speaker 1: and composer. You know him best for his work on
Speaker 1: Broadways critically claimed show oh Little shows like Hamilton's Dear
Speaker 1: Evan Hansen and in the Heights. He's won three Tony's,
Speaker 1: four Grammys, and an Emmy, And most recently, Alex composed
Speaker 1: the score for Netflix Vivo and he's serving as the
Speaker 1: executive music producer on the film Tick Tick Boom. And
Speaker 1: if that wasn't already so impressive, Alex is a co
Speaker 1: founder of this incredible organization called Muse, which provides access
Speaker 1: and internships and mentorships to support historically marginalized people of
Speaker 1: color to cultivate more racial equity in theater and music departments.
Speaker 1: He also if that wasn't enough. Is a gem of
Speaker 1: a human you will soon see, with warmth and grace
Speaker 1: that is on par with his talent. We've known each
Speaker 1: other for over thirty years and I have never interviewed
Speaker 1: him professionally before. So here we go. I can't wait
Speaker 1: for you to listen. Let's dig it, Alex. Let's okay,
Speaker 1: let's talk about us, because we've known each other since
Speaker 1: I think we were twelve. Oh my god, that's probably right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Junior High School stood Southwood Middle School. We went to
Speaker 1: the same performing arts middle school and high schools. So
Speaker 1: here's my recollection of you as baby Alex, which was
Speaker 1: like so sweet, already so ridiculously. I know you do
Speaker 1: a million of these kind of interviews around your career,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to talk a little bit about the
Speaker 1: man behind the music because for me, I remember falling
Speaker 1: in love with storytelling. I was thinking about this. It
Speaker 1: actually came when my sister and my dad and I
Speaker 1: would act out our bedtime stories. So my dad worked
Speaker 1: a lot but always made sure he was home to
Speaker 1: put us to bed, and but he would never read
Speaker 1: the stories. We would always act them out. And I
Speaker 1: can remember it like five six seven, like that was
Speaker 1: where I knew I wanted to play and tell stories.
Speaker 1: And for you, like, do you have a first memory
Speaker 1: of falling in love with music? Is that a conscious
Speaker 1: memory for you? Falling in love with music for the
Speaker 1: first time. I know about that just from stories that
Speaker 1: people have told me. And I have a cousin that
Speaker 1: told me that, like when I was too I would
Speaker 1: sit in front of the stereo speakers and just like
Speaker 1: stare into the speakers and just be transfixed by the music.
Speaker 1: And I'm told by my mom that before I even
Speaker 1: knew how to read, I knew what record I wanted
Speaker 1: to listen to because I associated a certain song to
Speaker 1: the logo of the forty five And I would say, oh, Mom,
Speaker 1: I want to hear Blue by You by Linda Ronstand
Speaker 1: or whatever, and she would grab a certain record and
Speaker 1: I would be like, no, Mom, it's not that when
Speaker 1: it's the other one, And like, how did I know?
Speaker 1: I just like knew by the color of the logo
Speaker 1: of the on the record. So I guess for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: like my love of music has always been around. And
Speaker 1: even when I had a toy piano I big we
Speaker 1: barely remember playing that thing, but that apparently is what
Speaker 1: led my parents to say, oh, wow, he has an
Speaker 1: interest in music. I mean, who knows if I was
Speaker 1: actually hitting the right notes as I played along to
Speaker 1: the radio. Maybe I was close, you know. But since then,
Speaker 1: music has just been a part of my life. It's
Speaker 1: how like I I measure things in my life. It's
Speaker 1: how I associate certain feelings certain times, it's how I
Speaker 1: remember dates. Music kind of saved me a little bit.
Speaker 1: I just felt so awkward as a kid, and you know,
Speaker 1: I had a hard time finding people around me that
Speaker 1: loved music as much as I did. And my music
Speaker 1: was kind of like this weird superpower that I didn't
Speaker 1: really get to display. And it wasn't until people realize, oh,
Speaker 1: Alex plays piano that I've started to like not become popular,
Speaker 1: but like I just had something that people could point
Speaker 1: to or relate to me on. That's why going to
Speaker 1: our performing arts junior high school, like that's where I
Speaker 1: really started to click. And like even meeting you and
Speaker 1: me all the kids in the theater department, j I
Speaker 1: can't tell you how size makershift that was in my life.
Speaker 1: To be able to meet you and to meet everyone
Speaker 1: around you that really just like it was just that
Speaker 1: that communal aspect, that family thing that theater provides, and
Speaker 1: what I saw that you all had and what I
Speaker 1: saw that you were all inviting me to be a
Speaker 1: part of, right, because like me to get invited to
Speaker 1: like the cast parties, right to me, to get to
Speaker 1: know your mom, who was so instrumental and like kind
Speaker 1: of like being the this big mother hand to all
Speaker 1: these kids. It was just this family feeling that I
Speaker 1: was just wanting so much in my social life, and
Speaker 1: that really provided it for me. So it was all
Speaker 1: through music and all through aren't. Yeah. They used to
Speaker 1: call my mom drama Mama. That's so interesting to hear
Speaker 1: you talk about that time in our life because when
Speaker 1: we're at that age and stage of life, like our
Speaker 1: dominant stories about where we fit, who we are, if
Speaker 1: we're good enough, is obviously so rampid. You know. Sarah
Speaker 1: Brellis and I were talking about this and like our
Speaker 1: very episode that like theater is the place where the
Speaker 1: misfits go, where we fit sort of like always a
Speaker 1: little bit being on the outside, and then when you
Speaker 1: play together and when you make something together, you form
Speaker 1: this family. And you were always such an incredible part
Speaker 1: of that. But take us back to like that mindset
Speaker 1: for you as a young kid, about like the dominant narratives,
Speaker 1: because you were saying you felt awkward or you felt
Speaker 1: like do you remember the stories you would tell yourself
Speaker 1: about yourself at that age? Did you have kind of
Speaker 1: a negative narrative running through your head? The first one
Speaker 1: that comes to mind is like, oh my god, girls
Speaker 1: don't like me. Like that was a big thing for me.
Speaker 1: Like I definitely was in love with girls in third
Speaker 1: grade and like, oh my gosh, she's never gonna notice
Speaker 1: me and all that. That was a very big dominant
Speaker 1: store for me. And the other thing for me was like, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: I'm not popular enough. I'm not cool enough, you know,
Speaker 1: because you would see TV shows and movies like, Oh,
Speaker 1: there's this group of people and they're well known and
Speaker 1: they were liked and they get you know, watching all
Speaker 1: those John Hughes movies and like, wow, what is it
Speaker 1: like to be at a crazy party like that? Like
Speaker 1: I had no idea, and I wanted that so much.
Speaker 1: There was definitely a thing that I wanted so much
Speaker 1: to be a part of that I just didn't feel
Speaker 1: like I could be a part of. And like I said,
Speaker 1: it wasn't until this music thing, until people saw, oh wow,
Speaker 1: Alex can do something like I have this vivid memory
Speaker 1: of being at the cast party for what was probably
Speaker 1: Oliver or you know, a Finian's Rainbow. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but my memory is is at someone's house and it's
Speaker 1: probably eleven o'clock at night, and I'm probably I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stay thirteen years old, and I'm at the piano and
Speaker 1: I cannot see anything around me except for people all
Speaker 1: surrounding me around the piano singing the hits of the
Speaker 1: day that I'm playing. And people are singing, and like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, people are singing because I'm playing, Like
Speaker 1: if I stopped playing, they want sings. So all of
Speaker 1: a sudden there's this like there's this relationship as being
Speaker 1: formed and like I'm making and it is magic in
Speaker 1: a way, right because like play these notes and they
Speaker 1: go into the air and people feel inspired to sing.
Speaker 1: But like once I felt that ability to like make
Speaker 1: a shift in something and do it through my music,
Speaker 1: which I loved anyway, it just was so easy. I
Speaker 1: just bought that home. I think one of those cast
Speaker 1: parties at least was at my house, because I do
Speaker 1: have those memories and probably some like pictures that I'll
Speaker 1: have to dig out somewhere of us. The hair was
Speaker 1: like the memorable moment for me, and like the higher
Speaker 1: the hair, the closer to God. Um. You know, I
Speaker 1: don't think I ever noticed or knew that you were
Speaker 1: hearing aids in did you wear them when we're Yeah,
Speaker 1: I never ever noticed? Yeah, seriously, you know, yeah, I
Speaker 1: was like, I mean, I I know about your hearing loss,
Speaker 1: but I don't think I ever like remember that being
Speaker 1: a part of how I thought about you or even like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was not conscious for me, but obviously was. I
Speaker 1: know it was conscious for you because you've talked about
Speaker 1: like what that was like for you, and I wanted
Speaker 1: to take a little bit of a moment to have
Speaker 1: you speak more about that. When did you start wearing them?
Speaker 1: Like what did mom or dad notice first? Like I'm
Speaker 1: curious because I don't know that part of your story
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. I think
Speaker 1: I might know why maybe you don't relate hearing aids
Speaker 1: with me, And that's problem because at some point in
Speaker 1: junior high I did stop wearing them because I was
Speaker 1: self conscious about them. Interesting, So to answer your question.
Speaker 1: I think my mom first noticed when I was around
Speaker 1: four that she would call me from the other room
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't hear her, or she would notice how
Speaker 1: close I was sitting to the TV set and I
Speaker 1: would say, Oh, it's because I can't hear if i'm
Speaker 1: I'm far away. And I was around that time they
Speaker 1: I got tested from my hearing and I got fitted
Speaker 1: for hearing aids. And back then, this is like what
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty or so, they were big. Yeah, the technology
Speaker 1: at the time when they would fit behind the ear
Speaker 1: and you would just see this this apparatus just hanging
Speaker 1: at the top of your your ear lobe. And I
Speaker 1: think I wore them all throughout until I got the
Speaker 1: junior high and then somewhere along the line because they're
Speaker 1: not covered by my family couldn't afford a pair, so
Speaker 1: I only rocked one hearing aid because when one was
Speaker 1: better than none. And then I just distinctly remember that
Speaker 1: certain age where it's puberty and its subconsciousness, and enough
Speaker 1: people were asking me, Hey, what's that thing behind your
Speaker 1: ear that I didn't want them to ask anymore, so
Speaker 1: I just stopped wearing them all together. I just didn't
Speaker 1: that to me was another way to not fit in.
Speaker 1: Another way to not be cool is to where you're
Speaker 1: hearing it. And as a result, I missed so much
Speaker 1: just I mean, like my thing was okay. I always
Speaker 1: had to sit at the front of the class in
Speaker 1: order to hear the teacher. Friends jokes would happen, and
Speaker 1: I would be like, what they say, what they say.
Speaker 1: I still remember being in high school and my girlfriend
Speaker 1: at the time, they had a big viewing party at
Speaker 1: her house to watch Silence of the Lambs because it
Speaker 1: was like the hot movie at the time, and it
Speaker 1: was like twenty people in a dark room and that
Speaker 1: TV had to be so soft because her mom was
Speaker 1: asleep in the other room. But she was cool with
Speaker 1: us being there watching and I missed the entire movie.
Speaker 1: I couldn't hear of sucking thing because I couldn't in
Speaker 1: a big public room being like what they say what
Speaker 1: they say? Like after the third time, it's like, Alex stop.
Speaker 1: And that's what started to happen for me. The ship
Speaker 1: was somewhere along the line. I started to just sense
Speaker 1: people getting aggravated about me asking them all the time
Speaker 1: because you know, they say, hey, this guy's what the
Speaker 1: guy's blew what this guy is blewe Alex. When that
Speaker 1: happens enough times, you start to cower a little. You
Speaker 1: start to sometimes just not ask and just let things
Speaker 1: go by and act as if you you understood. You know,
Speaker 1: it became the things like oh, Alex, he doesn't understand.
Speaker 1: They just laugh off the fact that Alex didn't catch
Speaker 1: the joke. And I think once I got the college
Speaker 1: and enough new people, by that point, the technology of
Speaker 1: hearing aids had changed and they fit inside the ear
Speaker 1: and people don't necessarily notice them. So I've known people
Speaker 1: for years who have been around me as I'm wearing
Speaker 1: hearing aids, and they don't notice that they wear them,
Speaker 1: which is so odd to me, because if someone else
Speaker 1: is wearing hearing aids, that's the first thing I noticed
Speaker 1: that they have hearing as. Of course, I want to
Speaker 1: play this clip that you did for our hometown, an
Speaker 1: interview that you did for our hometown paper, the Miami Harold,
Speaker 1: where you talk about how that hearing loss transformed the
Speaker 1: way you connected to music. Okay, my hearing loss probably
Speaker 1: makes me listen a little harder, makes me listen a
Speaker 1: little more closely to music. And I also feel like
Speaker 1: the fact that I don't hear, like you know, it's
Speaker 1: hard for me to hear someone when they're talking very
Speaker 1: far away. So because of that, it allows me to
Speaker 1: kind of live in my own bubble. So I think
Speaker 1: that actually developed a lot of focus for me, because
Speaker 1: I can really focus in and zero in on music
Speaker 1: and just tune out the world and tune out everything
Speaker 1: around me. Maybe because of the fact that I have
Speaker 1: to work to listen, work to hear, makes me kind
Speaker 1: of get into finer details of music that by now
Speaker 1: they're just very second nature to me. But I often wonder, like,
Speaker 1: is you know, my handicap actually an asset? What do
Speaker 1: you think little Alex would hear about hearing you say
Speaker 1: that now you know it's I wonder what little Alex
Speaker 1: would think, because I don't know that I ever thought
Speaker 1: to myself, oh, my hearing is going to get in
Speaker 1: the way of the enjoying music. And that's where I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm lucky that it was never a detriment,
Speaker 1: Like it was just very apparent that like my hearing
Speaker 1: loss was not getting in the way of me playing
Speaker 1: music and having it feel like my language and having
Speaker 1: it feel like something that I felt drawn to or
Speaker 1: felt that I was good at as kids were all
Speaker 1: taught that Beethoven was deaf at a certain point in
Speaker 1: his life. So maybe somewhere in my mind, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh there, yeah, it was so maybe that sea was planted.
Speaker 1: I bring this forward too, because I think for those
Speaker 1: people who are listening who might have their own stories
Speaker 1: about abilities or that they have or they don't have,
Speaker 1: or they wish they had keep them from creating and
Speaker 1: going after what they really want to do and be
Speaker 1: in the world. I agree. I agree, and I'm fortunate
Speaker 1: that I had a lot of support around me. Right,
Speaker 1: I had parents that believed in what I did. You know,
Speaker 1: I had Rick Adams are are directing teach Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was the director of our program. Yeah, in the director
Speaker 1: of the program. So those are people who were like, hey,
Speaker 1: Alex can do this, like hey, here's something that he's
Speaker 1: going to and would lift me up in that way.
Speaker 1: It was that support that helped me, you know, just
Speaker 1: those people who can kind of like recognize something and
Speaker 1: zero in on that, and that's what built me up. Alright, alright,
Speaker 1: I called time out for a second. Let's take a
Speaker 1: short break to hear these messages, all right, now, back
Speaker 1: to our conduct, I want to talk about kind of
Speaker 1: this journey. So you went to Berkeley College of Music,
Speaker 1: and now at this point you said there was always
Speaker 1: this moment in your life where you're like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: going to be doing music forever when you thought about
Speaker 1: going into the industry, because I think that's what those
Speaker 1: colleges also begin to prep you for, right, is thinking
Speaker 1: about like life afterwards. Were you already aware or thinking
Speaker 1: about how the industry has gatekeepers for whose stories get
Speaker 1: told and don't get told? You know, I think there's
Speaker 1: definitely something about when you're young and when you're learning
Speaker 1: that there's a world that can see him a little
Speaker 1: impenetrable in a certain way. And you mentioned taking trips
Speaker 1: up to New York to see Broadway. I don't know
Speaker 1: about you, but you know, as a kid in Miami,
Speaker 1: Broadway felt so far away, it felt almost impossible, much
Speaker 1: in the same way where you know, even being at school.
Speaker 1: Let's say, for example, a clinic would be held and
Speaker 1: you'd see Will Calhoun, the drummer from Living Color to
Speaker 1: a clinic, and I would see what he's doing, like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that guy's in a rock band and
Speaker 1: he's touring the world. Oh my god, Like that felt
Speaker 1: like something I would want to do and yet felt
Speaker 1: really impossible. And then, through life happening, through opportunities, happening,
Speaker 1: through fate, through chance, whatever it is, you kind of
Speaker 1: get to these rooms and to get to these situations,
Speaker 1: and you feel as though you don't belong, and yet
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you realize, oh wait, I totally belong,
Speaker 1: Like I totally know what I'm doing. Oh, these are
Speaker 1: human beings just like us. These are people just like us.
Speaker 1: They've got their issues just like us, right, I think
Speaker 1: got their hang ups just like us. I know I've
Speaker 1: been in situations where I've said, hey, I don't think
Speaker 1: I can do this, and there's someone just above you.
Speaker 1: He's like, oh no, no, no, you totally can. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: if they think I can do it, then I can't
Speaker 1: do it. And it's just that little help from someone,
Speaker 1: or that little suggestion or that little opportunity to let
Speaker 1: you know, oh, this world is normal. It is not
Speaker 1: that much different from what it is that you are
Speaker 1: already doing. So I don't know that I felt like
Speaker 1: that they were like gatekeepers who like decide, oh you
Speaker 1: get in you don't da da da, But I know
Speaker 1: that they definitely felt like there was another spear that like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that thing is rotating over there, Like
Speaker 1: how do I get there? Can I get there? Do
Speaker 1: I belong there? Am I worthy of it? I'm curious
Speaker 1: about the moment when you tackle multiple projects at one time,
Speaker 1: if you do that, or when you were building in
Speaker 1: your career, if you were taking on lots of projects,
Speaker 1: do you get scared when you're taking on multiple things?
Speaker 1: Do you ever doubt if you can do it? Do
Speaker 1: those dominant voices kind of come back in and are like,
Speaker 1: oh boy, you took on too much, or you're not
Speaker 1: going to get this done. Like I'm curious what that
Speaker 1: dialogue sounds like. Yes to all of it. Um, It's
Speaker 1: always been this way for me. I was always trying
Speaker 1: to like balance a million things at once and have
Speaker 1: music be a part of it. So I guess if
Speaker 1: I think back there, even being in junior high and
Speaker 1: like trying to deal with like the eight classes of
Speaker 1: like the of the math and the science and the history,
Speaker 1: and with the three extra classes of choir and theory
Speaker 1: and piano, and after that having to do the homework
Speaker 1: and doing the rehearsal for their community theater production of
Speaker 1: Pipping down the Street and at the same time practicing
Speaker 1: your classical piano so that you could play a solo
Speaker 1: piano concert in Meridith City in Mexico at the age
Speaker 1: of thirteen, which I did. I was doing all that stuff,
Speaker 1: same thing with high school, and I do have memories
Speaker 1: of my mom being like, you aren't taken on too much,
Speaker 1: and me just like finding a way to push through it,
Speaker 1: and things kind of felt by the wayside, Like there
Speaker 1: are certain books for English class that I didn't read,
Speaker 1: you know, there's certain tests that I could have done
Speaker 1: better at. But in the music world, like that's where
Speaker 1: I got the straight days. So there are times, yes
Speaker 1: in my life where I feel like I'm biting off
Speaker 1: a little bit more than I can choose, because what
Speaker 1: is sacrificed then is my sleep, my relaxed time, my
Speaker 1: time with my wife, my time with my family, all
Speaker 1: that it goes away. I'm learning now I'm forty six now,
Speaker 1: like I just starting to notice my out I can't
Speaker 1: do this stuff now that I used to be able
Speaker 1: to do my twenties, the all nighters and the degree
Speaker 1: of stuff like it's now starting to feel too much,
Speaker 1: to the point that even I'm saying, Yo, this is
Speaker 1: too much. And this past couple of years, particularly for me,
Speaker 1: was a pretty stressful and difficult one in terms of
Speaker 1: like things being on top of each other. But what's
Speaker 1: difficult is that there are all things I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: They are all things that felt important to me, and
Speaker 1: there were things that I would have regretted not being
Speaker 1: a part of and things that I felt like I
Speaker 1: learned something from along the way. I guess the price
Speaker 1: I paid is some extra stress and you know, some
Speaker 1: bags under my eyes. But I now I'm going to
Speaker 1: be just more careful about what it is that I
Speaker 1: do say yes too, because I am feeling the want,
Speaker 1: the desire to slow down. I want to travel. There's
Speaker 1: like countries I haven't been to write, There's experiences I
Speaker 1: haven't had. There's like people that I haven't been giving
Speaker 1: my devotion to that i'd like to and I feel
Speaker 1: like I can now, well, is this compensatory time, right?
Speaker 1: I think it's always this pendulum that swings back and forth.
Speaker 1: So I know you probably answered a million Hamilton's questions before,
Speaker 1: but one of the things that I'm thinking about is
Speaker 1: when you take on a project like that, or when
Speaker 1: you're working on a project like that, did you face
Speaker 1: a moment of doubt in working on a show like
Speaker 1: that of that magnitude or was the trick that y'all
Speaker 1: didn't really know what kind of magnitude it was going
Speaker 1: to be yet, so you're sort of unfettered by that pressure.
Speaker 1: But I'm curious about whether you had creator's block or
Speaker 1: if any doubts sort of spring up in the creation
Speaker 1: of that. Well, I'll tell you two stories. One of
Speaker 1: them is when we were in rehearsals for Off Broadway
Speaker 1: for Hamilton's before anyone had seen the show in public, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've had a couple of workshops, but we
Speaker 1: hadn't done like the production with like the costumes and
Speaker 1: the lights and all that stuff. I remember having a
Speaker 1: moment in rehearsal with Tommy Kaylor, director, and I said
Speaker 1: to him, Tommy, listen, I know this is like an
Speaker 1: amazing piece. I know that this is the best thing
Speaker 1: Limmle has ever written. I'm so proud of everything we're doing,
Speaker 1: But dude, are people really going to pay money to
Speaker 1: see a show about American history told through hip hop?
Speaker 1: Like is it gonna land? Are people really gonna get it?
Speaker 1: I truly wasn't sure. I thought at best it would
Speaker 1: be a critical success because the writing I knew was powerful,
Speaker 1: so that I recognized. I just didn't know, like if
Speaker 1: the public, the world, the country, whatever, people were ready
Speaker 1: to receive this message told in this way and back
Speaker 1: to the doubts, you know, in terms of the writing
Speaker 1: of it all, Like it was so important for me
Speaker 1: as the orchestrator for the show to get it right
Speaker 1: quote unquote, because I knew what Lynn Manuel was providing
Speaker 1: was such gold. I didn't want to be the one
Speaker 1: to mess it up, and I wanted to take as
Speaker 1: much time questioning every move I made and demoing every
Speaker 1: orchestration that I wrote to make sure that there was
Speaker 1: no stone left on turn, to make sure that it
Speaker 1: felt right. So like I took about eight months and
Speaker 1: to and to orchestrate the show, which is very out
Speaker 1: of the ordinary because most Broadway show it's get orchestrated
Speaker 1: and probably four weeks if that's because what happens is,
Speaker 1: you know, the show will be in rehearsal and an
Speaker 1: orchestrator is brought on very late in the game. Comparatively
Speaker 1: to the rest of the production, and they come in
Speaker 1: and listen once the numbers already staged in rehearsal, and
Speaker 1: then they go home and write on their own time.
Speaker 1: But I knew that I had to orchestrate ahead of
Speaker 1: time because I was going to be in the room
Speaker 1: eight hours a day playing piano and making these decisions,
Speaker 1: so I had to be as prepared as possible. I know,
Speaker 1: when I started, I had a hard time just getting
Speaker 1: the momentum going. And the first six or seven charts
Speaker 1: I did were just fine, and I knew as I
Speaker 1: was doing them they're just fine, But I had to
Speaker 1: keep going, and I had to keep moving. And then
Speaker 1: I hit my stride, probably around the eighth or the ninth,
Speaker 1: at the tenth one, like, oh now I get it.
Speaker 1: I know what the world is, I know what the
Speaker 1: palette is, and then I could go back to the
Speaker 1: first seven or eight tunes and redo them with a
Speaker 1: different mindset. The end of the process is just easier
Speaker 1: once you have your palette, once you have your your framework,
Speaker 1: then you and kind of flow and sail a little
Speaker 1: bit more easily. But the front half was definitely like
Speaker 1: just a lot of kind of banging your head against
Speaker 1: the wall. And but you've got to push through it.
Speaker 1: You have to know that it's not too late. You
Speaker 1: can come back to it, but you just gotta keep
Speaker 1: moving and trust that the that the right answer will
Speaker 1: reveal itself over time. That's like the master class of
Speaker 1: for creators, I think and writers in particular, but all artists,
Speaker 1: which is like, just get that crappy first draft done, Like,
Speaker 1: get it out there, get it out of your brain,
Speaker 1: your heart, your soul, and like then shape it from
Speaker 1: there and then edit yeah, absolutely, and then edit yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that you had commercial success and success before Hamilton's.
Speaker 1: But then Hamilton's is like its own universe. And when
Speaker 1: you start to see the fandom at the level that
Speaker 1: hamd Fams have rabid and passionate and incredible, that love
Speaker 1: is what stories do you tell yourself then about success?
Speaker 1: Like what's coming up for you when you hit that
Speaker 1: kind of pinnacle. What comes up for me is just
Speaker 1: its gratitude for being able to be a part of
Speaker 1: something that has that level of impact. That's the dream,
Speaker 1: right And in terms of like when I see that
Speaker 1: kind of fandom for the show, for some people, there
Speaker 1: is a level of obsession about it, And I get
Speaker 1: it because I'm obsessed about what I do. I'm obsessed
Speaker 1: about music. I remember being obsessed about Rush, obsessed about Beatles,
Speaker 1: obsessed about you know, chopin whatever. I still am. So
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to be so in on
Speaker 1: something that you like, listen to the albums constantly, and
Speaker 1: you read all the literature you can, and it's all
Speaker 1: you talk about, and it overtakes your your thoughts, right,
Speaker 1: it just consumes you. So when I see that happening
Speaker 1: to something that I was a part of, my God,
Speaker 1: I feel so lucky. Like if ever anyone recognizes who
Speaker 1: I am on the street, I'm always bewildered and amazed
Speaker 1: they know who I am a and be. That also
Speaker 1: shows Wow, they know about Hamilton's enough that they know
Speaker 1: like the people involved. That to me is a kin
Speaker 1: to like buying a CD right when we were kids
Speaker 1: and looking at the credits because we want to see
Speaker 1: who did this and who did that, because we wanted
Speaker 1: to know, Hey, who made this thing and what else
Speaker 1: did they make so that I could learn what it
Speaker 1: is that they did. So all this to say that
Speaker 1: I am just honored when I see that kind of fandom,
Speaker 1: and when I see people who express how the show
Speaker 1: has shape them or what it means to them, that's
Speaker 1: wonderful because I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm a
Speaker 1: part of it, and I it's just special. It truly is.
Speaker 1: Remember when we were I think, Felipe my husband, you
Speaker 1: and Ilani your wife, we were getting ice cream in
Speaker 1: Santa Monica when you guys are out here and those
Speaker 1: girls in line behind us and Straw remember, and they
Speaker 1: were like totally geeking out about you. And again I
Speaker 1: was thinking, like, you know, they recognized you and they
Speaker 1: were so excited to meet you, And I mean, does
Speaker 1: it get old like Grammy's Tony's, dude? Like, and I
Speaker 1: know that. I know, like you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: people like, oh, it's just being nominated that matters. No, dude,
Speaker 1: you won those Grammys and those Tony's. And I'm like
Speaker 1: just again thinking like what is twelve year old Alex
Speaker 1: think about that You're a red carpet with your smoking
Speaker 1: hot wife and your amazing career and like you're welcome, baby.
Speaker 1: I mean, do you have those moments where you reconcile
Speaker 1: the kid who felt like you didn't belong and that
Speaker 1: you know, you'd never have love in that way, and
Speaker 1: like do you have a moment in that gratitude and
Speaker 1: that recognition of like, look at where I am. I've
Speaker 1: transcended those stories. Yeah. I mostly feel like if I'm
Speaker 1: with family, Like if if I'm home, like my mom,
Speaker 1: who's so supportive and so so proud like that, that's
Speaker 1: where I feel. That's where I get into what that
Speaker 1: little kid was and like how far away those you know?
Speaker 1: And I can trace that back to my mom being
Speaker 1: a young eight year old girl like in a farm
Speaker 1: out in the boondocks of what do you think Cuba?
Speaker 1: You know, Like how does that this girl who grew
Speaker 1: up you know, go through whatever it is that she
Speaker 1: went through to meet whoever she met to birth me
Speaker 1: to do this stuff that I achieved, Like I changed
Speaker 1: it back to that and that that's some ship. Seriously,
Speaker 1: It's it seems impossible in the way, and yet here
Speaker 1: here we are. And I think about Tommy cam who
Speaker 1: says that a lot about Hamilton's and like it's it
Speaker 1: seems like it couldn't exist, and yet it does. And Uh,
Speaker 1: that's where I get present to it. I think when
Speaker 1: I come back to my family, that's when I realized, Wow,
Speaker 1: this is amazing and unlikely. Hey, where are you going?
Speaker 1: There's so much more this juicy convo coming right up. Hey,
Speaker 1: hey we're back. Now let's get into our convo. I
Speaker 1: want to talk about sort of like the drive and
Speaker 1: the perfectionism in a way that encompasses your life at times,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious, like how that kind of drive has
Speaker 1: impacted you know, friendships, relationships, like how you are learning
Speaker 1: to navigate that driving voice inside that makes excellent work
Speaker 1: product but also requires a balance, right or does it?
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm curious your relationship to the stories around perfectionism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. The price that I think we as musicians
Speaker 1: pay for that kind of level of specificity in what
Speaker 1: we do is just this social awkwardness that I know.
Speaker 1: I addressed that earlier, but I gotta say that we
Speaker 1: are a rare breed. The amount of care and focus
Speaker 1: and knowledge that we have to mass on a certain
Speaker 1: kind of thing means that I think other things are
Speaker 1: going to not get as refined. Shall we say the
Speaker 1: sacrifices how we kind of navigate in the world and listen,
Speaker 1: it's worth it for me. Back to what this call
Speaker 1: started at, It was like, Hey, there's that piece of
Speaker 1: me that feels like, oh my God, like I don't
Speaker 1: fit in, I don't belong to that, and that I
Speaker 1: don't think we'll ever go away. That is going to
Speaker 1: be with me until my last breath, sorry to say,
Speaker 1: And it's okay. I think what we've come to terms
Speaker 1: that that's just the way life is, and how you
Speaker 1: deal with that and how loud that voice gets and
Speaker 1: how much you listen to it that you can navigate.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of uh, empowering to learn, Oh, that
Speaker 1: just is always there. What I can control is how
Speaker 1: loud it is. I think you've literally summarized what has
Speaker 1: been a whole season of conversations around these dominant stories
Speaker 1: because I don't think they ever go away. I think
Speaker 1: we learn how to invite them in, give them a
Speaker 1: seat at the table, listen to what their concerns are,
Speaker 1: and then figure out how to manage them. But I
Speaker 1: think we get better at managing them, at challenging them,
Speaker 1: at rewriting them, of making friends with them. Um, how
Speaker 1: is a cree Later? Do you hold on to the
Speaker 1: wonder of creating when the world can sometimes feel like
Speaker 1: a ship show? Does music pull you out of that feeling,
Speaker 1: does it save you there as well in the wonder
Speaker 1: of making things? So the work that I do is
Speaker 1: usually commission based, and what I mean by that is
Speaker 1: I've not been the type of creator where I just
Speaker 1: generate something because I have this feeling that is bottled
Speaker 1: up inside that I need to express. I'm not a
Speaker 1: songwriter in that way. I'm always brought on to help
Speaker 1: someone fulfill a vision. Really, so I guess I feel
Speaker 1: lucky in that the wonder for me is always in
Speaker 1: the fact that I'm actually serving other people. So for me,
Speaker 1: that's where the magic is through the collaboration, truly, and
Speaker 1: that's why I love what it is that I do.
Speaker 1: I'm always working with other people and getting to work
Speaker 1: with new people and getting new experiences and figure out
Speaker 1: how that person works and how that person takes So
Speaker 1: for me, it's always new and fresh in that way,
Speaker 1: and I feel lucky that how I get to move
Speaker 1: through the world is through the work that I get
Speaker 1: to do with other people on their art. So I
Speaker 1: love being a conduit in that way. That's really important
Speaker 1: to me. And then that through line that we've been
Speaker 1: talking about this whole time around the community that you
Speaker 1: find and how that fills you up right even from
Speaker 1: little kid to now. I know one of the things though,
Speaker 1: I know that for you, creating more diversity within music departments,
Speaker 1: um both in the theater industry and other systems are
Speaker 1: important to you. And you actually went a step further
Speaker 1: and you co founded this amazing organization called MUSE. And
Speaker 1: I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking
Speaker 1: about that. Talk to me about that leap now into
Speaker 1: you have this success in this visibility, and now it's
Speaker 1: time to work on the visibility within music department. So
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about MUSE. So mus stands for
Speaker 1: Musicians United for Social Equity, and the organization was mostly
Speaker 1: born out of the reckoning that are industry was taken
Speaker 1: to task for. And it was just a realization that, like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like if we look around most music departments,
Speaker 1: for most shows and for most pits, there is definitely
Speaker 1: a lack of diversity when it comes to folks of color.
Speaker 1: And it became apparent to us how much power we
Speaker 1: as musicians have in terms of who gets asked to
Speaker 1: be in the room. And we talked about this earlier,
Speaker 1: right about gatekeepers and what that is and I gotta
Speaker 1: tell you. Once the summer hit of last year and
Speaker 1: George Boy's murder, even though there were murder murders that
Speaker 1: led up to that, but that is when people were
Speaker 1: really looking at oh my gosh, like how are we
Speaker 1: populating our groups and our teams? And I remember at
Speaker 1: that moment, I thought to myself, Oh wow, everyone is
Speaker 1: now going to be in this mindset and everyone is
Speaker 1: going to like really put this front and center on
Speaker 1: how they staff and how they populate panels and groups
Speaker 1: and teams. And I repeatedly kept going into rooms and realizing,
Speaker 1: wait a second, no one is saying anything. And I
Speaker 1: kept thinking like, oh, I'm not going to have to
Speaker 1: do that work. It doesn't have to be me. But
Speaker 1: then I realized, ship I have to be the one
Speaker 1: ranging in my hand to be like, wait a second,
Speaker 1: there are no black people anywhere in this group, like
Speaker 1: where are the women? Were like I'm the only Latino?
Speaker 1: Like what is going on here? And I kept thinking
Speaker 1: to myself like, oh, other people are going to be
Speaker 1: doing that, but I just realized, oh my god, if
Speaker 1: I don't do it, it's not going to be anybody.
Speaker 1: So it's this realization that you've got to do something different.
Speaker 1: You have to pass along knowledge, you have to mentor
Speaker 1: you have to give access, and you have to speak up.
Speaker 1: And I think that's really what I've been learning about
Speaker 1: news and the power that we have. And it's this
Speaker 1: weird thing where you feel sometimes as though you are
Speaker 1: powerless when there are times that you actually really have
Speaker 1: way more power than you think. And who you invite
Speaker 1: into the room makes a big difference. And I will
Speaker 1: tie this into a story that relates to us. Just
Speaker 1: I remember being in ninth grade in junior high. This
Speaker 1: is you know, high school still started at tenth grade.
Speaker 1: So we're about to leave Southwood and I remember that
Speaker 1: there is this big dinner happening for the theater department.
Speaker 1: Now mind you, I'm in the music department and I
Speaker 1: was invited to the theater dinner by Mr Adams and
Speaker 1: I didn't know why, but I knew, like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like how cool, Like I love these folks, I know,
Speaker 1: like all of the buds, and we perform and do
Speaker 1: all this, And what was amazing is that it was
Speaker 1: basically a night that was a dinner, and like awards
Speaker 1: were given out, you know, best the commitment to the show,
Speaker 1: best whatever, and then Mr Adams like had an award,
Speaker 1: like a special one for me just for being like
Speaker 1: the pianist for the group. He extended a hand and said, hey, Alex,
Speaker 1: you be a part of this, like have a seat
Speaker 1: at this table literally and metaphorically. And what a difference
Speaker 1: that made for me, Like how included I felt, and
Speaker 1: how this room I wanted to be in and he
Speaker 1: allowed me to be in that and what a wonderful
Speaker 1: feeling that is. And to be able to give that
Speaker 1: to folks especially they feel like they can't be a
Speaker 1: part of that if there's a systemic reason that prevents
Speaker 1: them from that happening. I'd tased it back to how
Speaker 1: it was that I felt when someone extended that hand
Speaker 1: and asked me to be a part of something and
Speaker 1: gave me recognition and gave me that boost of confidence
Speaker 1: and what that did for me, So like, why shouldn't
Speaker 1: we pay that back to other people? Yeah, muse, I
Speaker 1: think takes it one step further, which is really important,
Speaker 1: which is you have this incredible directory and database of
Speaker 1: eligible artists and musicians. And so what I love about
Speaker 1: it is because oftentimes systems be the music industry, film TV,
Speaker 1: and the industry always talk about pipeline, right, like, we
Speaker 1: don't have the right pipeline. That's kind of bs because
Speaker 1: folks of color, folks of all genders exist and a
Speaker 1: lot of it is access and relationship. And I think
Speaker 1: mused as a beautiful job. And you had I think
Speaker 1: a sister side. I was watching as well as my
Speaker 1: yes stra right, yeah, so there's not a shortage of
Speaker 1: folks to recommend and to champion and and to invite
Speaker 1: into the room and speaking of the room where it happens,
Speaker 1: because I can't like talk to you and not have
Speaker 1: a Hamilton reference. I'm curious, like what advice you would
Speaker 1: give listeners who are trying to bring their story and
Speaker 1: their talent into the world but haven't seen their stories
Speaker 1: represented yet, haven't seen people like them orchestrate or you know,
Speaker 1: moderated discussion or write a book or whatever their art
Speaker 1: is that they're bringing into the world. What would you
Speaker 1: tell somebody who is desiring to creatively self express in
Speaker 1: the world but haven't seen that role model yet. You know,
Speaker 1: I take a page from Lin Manim's book, right, and
Speaker 1: the fact that he as a Puerto Rican dude living
Speaker 1: in New York and loving music and loving theater. I
Speaker 1: just felt like the show that he wanted to be
Speaker 1: and wasn't written yet, and he realized, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I need to write it. And again you keep thinking
Speaker 1: other people more experienced than you are, older than you were,
Speaker 1: more established than you are going to do something. But
Speaker 1: you wake up one day and you realize, now that
Speaker 1: person is me. So I would say, if you have
Speaker 1: that need to express, if you have that thing that
Speaker 1: you need to see out there, just do it. Just
Speaker 1: write it, just create it, and try to find your tribe,
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, because what we do in theater
Speaker 1: requires a village. You've got to find the people who
Speaker 1: are going to help bring your thing to life. And
Speaker 1: I guarantee that those partners are out there, and sometimes
Speaker 1: it takes longer to find them. Sometimes you bang your
Speaker 1: head against the wall. But I think this is the time, seriously,
Speaker 1: because it's in the forefront. Like if there are Latino writers,
Speaker 1: like people are looking for Latino music directors, people are
Speaker 1: looking for Latin writers and created all that stuff, write something.
Speaker 1: If this is you've wanted to get something produced, this
Speaker 1: is the time, you know, So like, don't delay, let
Speaker 1: it happen. My hope is that by people like Lemonuel
Speaker 1: creating first in that way, hopefully that will allow other
Speaker 1: people to see, hey, I can do this too. Well, buddy,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy you're a part of my tribe, and
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that we got a chance to to
Speaker 1: go down this road together. And I think you're right.
Speaker 1: Those dominant stories, those reasons why you haven't done it,
Speaker 1: shouldn't do it, couldn't do it, They're always going to
Speaker 1: be there. But the ability to overcome those, to do
Speaker 1: it in spite of being afraid to do it, in
Speaker 1: spite of not exactly knowing where it's going to lead you.
Speaker 1: That's the beauty of creativity. That's the beauty of self expression. UM.
Speaker 1: And being able to follow that, finding your people, relying
Speaker 1: on people in community. I think those are beautiful things
Speaker 1: to take away, UM. And also tell people how they
Speaker 1: can get involved in support MUS. Yes, so we have
Speaker 1: a website mus dot org. We have a directory. So
Speaker 1: if you are looking for say and oboist in the
Speaker 1: Los Angeles area and looking for folks of color, you
Speaker 1: would just type in because anyone can join the directory.
Speaker 1: Any person of color can join the directory, I mean,
Speaker 1: and anyone can look on the directory and kind of
Speaker 1: find folks that you might not have called before. We
Speaker 1: get so used to calling the same friends over and
Speaker 1: over to play our bands, and we have to get
Speaker 1: new friends, get to know new people. And you can
Speaker 1: donate on the website. Yeah, you can't be a partner
Speaker 1: news later and in uh in that way, I love it.
Speaker 1: It's such an important solution to a much whiter issue.
Speaker 1: So kudos to you and the whole team for doing that.
Speaker 1: And bonus question, what was your favorite thing for you
Speaker 1: to plan for us to sing too when we were little?
Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite moment? Yeah? I have memories
Speaker 1: of being in your house playing stuff from l Miss
Speaker 1: and I remember I first learned about Gentle through you.
Speaker 1: So we would be on the piano batch and you'd
Speaker 1: be sitting next to your welcome and you hearing me.
Speaker 1: To this day, just I cannot think of Piece of
Speaker 1: Sky without thinking of you and being in your house.
Speaker 1: The support you gave, the support your mom gave. I
Speaker 1: just felt included and it was just so important and
Speaker 1: so moneymental to me. Jess. I'm just so grateful. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Oh man, it was so easy. It was easy to
Speaker 1: love you then. It's so easy to love you. Now,
Speaker 1: Why hasn't Barbara's dreisand called we could do a little
Speaker 1: like we can rekickle that moment and do it. Let's Barbara,
Speaker 1: We'll fly out of Miami. I love it, my friend,
Speaker 1: I adore you. Thank you for lending your genius, your spirit,
Speaker 1: your warmth, and your grace to this conversation. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for having me, Jess. My heart could not
Speaker 1: be fuller than to have spent that time with somebody
Speaker 1: I love and to share that somebody I love with you.
Speaker 1: He's I told you, he's as gracious as he is
Speaker 1: a genius, and he's a beautiful culmination of a lot
Speaker 1: of the conversations we've had throughout this season with folks
Speaker 1: number one, I think a big theme was about mentor
Speaker 1: and championing other people, giving them access to rooms that
Speaker 1: you're in, championing their voice, supporting them as they speak up.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously being invited into those spaces really impacted Alex.
Speaker 1: I think we can take that as a wonderful message
Speaker 1: and an actionable takeaway of like, how are we paying
Speaker 1: it forward and championing this next generation of voices in
Speaker 1: our lives? Whatever that looks like. Having that generosity mindset
Speaker 1: so important. And then I think that advice that Alex
Speaker 1: gave for folks that are looking to get their art
Speaker 1: out into the world, their story out into the world.
Speaker 1: Even if you've never seen anybody like you produce the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that you want to make in the world,
Speaker 1: you still have to do it anyway. Don't wait for
Speaker 1: other people. I loved how he shared you know that
Speaker 1: Lynn Manuel wrote a musical that needed to exist. He
Speaker 1: needed to see Hamilton out in the world. It didn't
Speaker 1: exist prior. We can't wait for other people's approval. And
Speaker 1: probably along those same lines, what a great reminder to, like,
Speaker 1: get that crappy first draft out right, you can always
Speaker 1: go back and edit it. Just to hear Alex talk
Speaker 1: about seven or eight versions of music for Hamilton's that
Speaker 1: he felt like, we're just fine, but then was able
Speaker 1: to like refine, go back, find his groove. What a
Speaker 1: great example of just doing it. And then maybe the
Speaker 1: biggest theme of all is this power of community. You know,
Speaker 1: we've created a really beautiful one here for this show,
Speaker 1: and the power of community uplifts and transforms our lives
Speaker 1: and our stories, and it certainly did for Alex. You know,
Speaker 1: look for your creative partners to help you get your
Speaker 1: work out into the world. You know, when you click
Speaker 1: into a group of people that can support you, that
Speaker 1: see you where you feel like you fit, those are
Speaker 1: often the relationships that can help you change and challenge
Speaker 1: and rewrite those dominant stories. And if you're interested in
Speaker 1: learning more about dominant stories and how you can challenge
Speaker 1: and change and rewrite them, I teach workshops on this.
Speaker 1: You can always sign up at just weiner dot com
Speaker 1: and you can follow me on Instagram and I'm just Weener.
Speaker 1: And please don't forget to write a review wherever you're
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast. It's super duper, duper duper helps
Speaker 1: us out. I can't believe it, but this is the
Speaker 1: last episode of our season, and I just wanted to
Speaker 1: say thank you. Thank you for the beautiful guests we've
Speaker 1: had on this show and their trust and their faith
Speaker 1: in me to navigate through some deep and nuanced and
Speaker 1: complicated conversations. Thank you for you all who have been
Speaker 1: listening and taking the time to write a review or
Speaker 1: send in an email and let me know how this
Speaker 1: has impacted you. And thank you for my friends at
Speaker 1: Shanda Land and my heart and dove for creating a
Speaker 1: space at this time, this season of the world that
Speaker 1: we're in to have a conversation around something like Dominant Stories,
Speaker 1: something that I think we all universally can relate to
Speaker 1: this sort of negative self chatter in our heads and
Speaker 1: giving us time and space and thoughtfulness to unpack that,
Speaker 1: to provide resources for all of us to get or
Speaker 1: at challenging, changing, and rewriting. There is so much more
Speaker 1: fun and joy and love in here than I think.
Speaker 1: Sometimes even the title will have you believe. Um, the
Speaker 1: work of the work of changing yourself, of changing the
Speaker 1: way you think about yourself, or changing the way you
Speaker 1: feel about your body or image or identity, your creativity.
Speaker 1: While it is hard, while it can be complex and intersectional,
Speaker 1: it is also really rewarding to give time to educating yourself,
Speaker 1: loving yourself, working on yourself. And um, I just feel
Speaker 1: so grateful to be a small part of your journey
Speaker 1: as you've been listening, and I hope we get to
Speaker 1: do it again. Remember, we are always learning, always growing,
Speaker 1: and it has been an ultimate joy and pleasure to
Speaker 1: do that learning and growing with you. Dominant Stories with
Speaker 1: Jess Wiener is a production of Shonda Land Audio in
Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.