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Speaker 3: All right, welcome to hoops tonight. You're at the volume.
Speaker 3: Happy Monday, everybody.
Speaker 4: Hope all you guys are having a great start to
Speaker 4: your week. This NBA Finals Game five Instant Reaction is
Speaker 4: brought to you by Chase Freedom Unlimited.
Speaker 3: How do you cash back?
Speaker 4: Well, we have another NBA season in the books as
Speaker 4: the Boston Celtics are hoisting the Lario b. We got
Speaker 4: Colin Coward here to break it all down. We will
Speaker 4: also react to the Finals MVP news when the report
Speaker 4: comes down. Obviously, we're waiting on that still, But Colin,
Speaker 4: I want to kick it to you, like this NBA
Speaker 4: champion has this like indelible mark on the history of
Speaker 4: the NBA. How will you remember the twenty twenty four
Speaker 4: Boston Celtics.
Speaker 1: I think the deepest team, easily the most equipped with shooters, passers,
Speaker 1: ball handlers. You know, you've got six players Horford, Porzingis,
Speaker 1: Derek White, Brown, Tatum, Holiday, all really high end NBA
Speaker 1: players that would be either a one or a two
Speaker 1: on a lot of different teams in this league. Dallas
Speaker 1: is like the Lebron James Cleveland team that got to
Speaker 1: the finals against the Spurs. I don't really think they're close.
Speaker 1: Lebron eventually left that team. They're just ill equipped. Listen,
Speaker 1: they got a break. Is that Minnesota knocked out Denver,
Speaker 1: perfectly built to beat Denver. Denver led by twenty in
Speaker 1: the fourth, twenty points in that game and lost. Denver
Speaker 1: matches up with Boston, maybe doesn't beat him up, matches
Speaker 1: up well, Minnesota doesn't necessarily match up. Dallas absolutely doesn't
Speaker 1: match up. They just don't have They just don't have
Speaker 1: the wherewithal. They don't have enough players. You know, Boston's
Speaker 1: doing this five out spread the floor. There's nothing they
Speaker 1: can do. They can beat Mavericks off the dribble, set
Speaker 1: up easy jumpers. I mean, it wasn't you know it
Speaker 1: just throw out game four. Okay, So a team comes
Speaker 1: out Boston comes out flat. All these games, I felt
Speaker 1: like I was watching a championship team and a team
Speaker 1: that could have lost in the second round of the
Speaker 1: Western Playoffs. I think, and it's not a shot at Dallas,
Speaker 1: but they didn't look close. This was not I mean,
Speaker 1: there was no drama tonight. Eight minutes into the game,
Speaker 1: it's over everybody for the Celtics. They were playing like
Speaker 1: it was you know, it had sort of a regular
Speaker 1: season feel. Everybody was loose, everybody was confident. It's not
Speaker 1: a knock, it's just this game did not feel like
Speaker 1: a finals game. It felt like a first round game.
Speaker 1: Celtics were a heavy favorite, took an early lead like it.
Speaker 1: It didn't feel like a finals game. So I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, Tatum's in these kind of moments. He's such
Speaker 1: a beautiful player. You know, he's playing with confidence, like
Speaker 1: he's playing the Orlando Magic on a Friday night.
Speaker 5: He was playing at a different level.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this Celtics team is the rightful champion
Speaker 4: this year. I think they have a great claim to
Speaker 4: be remembered as the best team. Like we can talk
Speaker 4: about Denver and do I think Denver would have matched
Speaker 4: up better with Boston, of course, But the reality is
Speaker 4: is I don't think any team had a clear cut
Speaker 4: case like, oh, if Boston faced these guys, they were
Speaker 4: gonna lose. Even with Denver. You know, they won in
Speaker 4: the two regular season matchups. But one of the specific
Speaker 4: things that this Boston team does extremely well is spread
Speaker 4: you out and attack your weak points. And Denver did
Speaker 4: have some slow footed guys, guys like Jamal Urry, nicolea
Speaker 4: jokicch and Michael Porter Junior. Boston did not shoot well
Speaker 4: in either regular season game against the Nuggets, and so
Speaker 4: I even think that series was a lot more up
Speaker 4: in the air than people realized.
Speaker 1: That those were pressure pat games. There was a lot
Speaker 1: of talk this was a finals preview and Boston didn't
Speaker 1: shoot particularly well. So that's a classic. That's the kind
Speaker 1: of game that we have criticized Tatum for a big game.
Speaker 1: Everybody knows it going in and Boston doesn't shoot particularly well.
Speaker 1: So it's this series I felt by the second quarter
Speaker 1: of Game two, I'm like, uh, it's a problem.
Speaker 5: Like this isn't a good matchup, This series is over,
Speaker 5: didn't you.
Speaker 4: No, I totally agree, Like I thought that Dallas was
Speaker 4: in really in some deep shit, and on both ends
Speaker 4: of the floor in the sense that like they could
Speaker 4: not contain the basketball. They were in rotation constantly, and
Speaker 4: on the other end of the floor they could not
Speaker 4: get Boston in rotation. There was nothing they could do
Speaker 4: that made Boston overreact to anything that they were doing.
Speaker 4: And again, like that, that's kind of like when I
Speaker 4: look back at this Boston team, I think, you know,
Speaker 4: you and I came into this season viewing it kind
Speaker 4: of like a three team top tier is basically Denver, Boston, Milwaukee,
Speaker 4: and then we found out pretty quickly off the top, like, actually,
Speaker 4: Milwaukee's not very good for all the reasons we've discussed,
Speaker 4: and it just it kind of felt like a two
Speaker 4: team race for most of the season, and Boston survived
Speaker 4: Denver didn't. I thought, like, you know, one of the
Speaker 4: things I want to give Boston credit for, because talent
Speaker 4: does not always win in the NBA. It does a
Speaker 4: lot of the time, but it does not always win.
Speaker 4: In the NBA, it's about the team that can play
Speaker 4: the best basketball on both ends of the floor. And
Speaker 4: so one of the things I want to give this
Speaker 4: Boston team credit for is even though they had an
Speaker 4: overwhelming talent advantage in every matchup, it felt like they
Speaker 4: played to their capability a lot in this playoff run.
Speaker 4: That was what was infuriating about them at times in
Speaker 4: the in the regular season, all the criticism of Missoula Ball,
Speaker 4: Missoula Ball, it wasn't like it was the way the Celtics.
Speaker 3: Were playing it.
Speaker 4: They were taking a lot of bad shots, they weren't
Speaker 4: being delivered about their spacing and driving and kicking for
Speaker 4: great looks. They were playing some sloppy basketball from time
Speaker 4: to time, and they dropped some games they shouldn't have
Speaker 4: won or the shouldn't have lost. I think they were
Speaker 4: I want to I want to say they were like
Speaker 4: two to four against the the top four seeds in
Speaker 4: the Western Conference.
Speaker 3: It was actually it was. It was pretty bad.
Speaker 4: They were pretty bad against the good teams at the
Speaker 4: top of the West during the regular season, and a
Speaker 4: big part of that was they were just kind of
Speaker 4: playing beneath their potential. To their credit in this postseason run.
Speaker 4: I thought they achieved a level of defensive intensity I
Speaker 4: did not see from them in the last two seasons.
Speaker 4: I thought that they guarded Dallas extremely well. I know
Speaker 4: that you've got a stat you're going to tell us
Speaker 4: about Dallas as scoring later, But like I thought, they
Speaker 4: defended extremely well. And on the other end of the floor,
Speaker 4: Tatum and Brown embraced their roles as driving kick guys
Speaker 4: to get the defense in rotation. They played a great
Speaker 4: team brand of basketball. It was fun to watch. I'll
Speaker 4: tell you this, Colin. There were times during the regular
Speaker 4: season where I hated watching Boston because they would just
Speaker 4: drible up the floor and shoot a three without even
Speaker 4: like getting a paint touch, And they played a fun
Speaker 4: brand of basketball in this finals.
Speaker 3: I enjoyed watching them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's just let's just attack the Jason Tatum things.
Speaker 1: So you know, the Boston fans have amnesia, so Tatum's
Speaker 1: probably gonna win. I think Jalen Brown was the more
Speaker 1: consistent player in the series. Tatum had sixteen points in
Speaker 1: Game one, couldn't shoot eighteen points in Game two, played
Speaker 1: well in Game three, but Jalen Brown in Game three
Speaker 1: had thirty points more rebounds and more assist than Tatum
Speaker 1: and was just three games through this series, Brown was
Speaker 1: the alpha. That's not disputable. Game four celticsploone out. Tatum
Speaker 1: plays better tonight, but tonight was no pressure like the
Speaker 1: game was over late first, early second quarter. The series
Speaker 1: is over. I've never questioned Tatum in games like tonight.
Speaker 1: I've never questioned Tatum's talent. But in the first three
Speaker 1: games of this series, especially the first two when you're
Speaker 1: establishing the series, Jalen Brown was clearly the best player
Speaker 1: Boston had. That is indisputable. Those are pressure games. Tonight's
Speaker 1: you know, Tonight's the route. Tonight's one of those games
Speaker 1: we all played in high school. Maybe maybe you didn't
Speaker 1: where you're like in halftime, you're like, I don't really
Speaker 1: need to play. We're down by twenty eight. I don't
Speaker 1: really need to play. Like it was a blowout. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm looking at my notes here. First quarter, MAVs implode
Speaker 1: late in the quarter, down ten second quarter. This isn't close.
Speaker 1: Celtics throwing bodies at Luca. Five guys in the floor,
Speaker 1: all can shoot sixty forty two Duncan Derek White three
Speaker 1: ugly Pritchard three, like this thing was over midway through
Speaker 1: the second quarter. And Rory McElroy missed a putt on
Speaker 1: Sunday at the US Open late. He didn't miss putts
Speaker 1: on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday early. Even in the
Speaker 1: US Open, putt's late or not not puts early. Tonight's
Speaker 1: game is a pressureless game. Once you're up by twenty,
Speaker 1: I mean the game's over at halftime. And Tatum played
Speaker 1: very loose. He's a beautiful player. If he wins MVP,
Speaker 1: I'm totally happy for Jason Tatum. But let's let's be
Speaker 1: hones in the first two games, first three, you know
Speaker 1: the tone setters. Jalen Brown was the guy for the
Speaker 1: Celtics and he also won Eastern Conference MVP. He was
Speaker 1: the better player in that series. It's not a knock
Speaker 1: on Tatum, but he is a player that in really
Speaker 1: tone setting games, he leaves you wanting a little bit.
Speaker 1: Tonight was Lucy Goosey rolling downhill. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 1: It's not a knock if he wins it. I had
Speaker 1: the Celtics since six I've said it. He's somewhere between
Speaker 1: the fifth and eighth best player I'm good with. I'm
Speaker 1: not a hater, but like it's amnesia to say, oh,
Speaker 1: MVP of the series, Like, let's go back to the
Speaker 1: first three games. It wasn't close, That's all I said.
Speaker 4: I'll actually take it to put it a little bit
Speaker 4: more aggressively, like there wasn't a single moment in this
Speaker 4: entire playoff run where Boston was under any sort of
Speaker 4: pressure at all whatsoever. They played three bad teams in
Speaker 4: the Eastern Conference and then they played probably the best
Speaker 4: matchup for them out of the West, and so that
Speaker 4: that specifically just avoids any of like the real drama
Speaker 4: that you think of when you when you think about
Speaker 4: historical finals MVPs, you think of drama. You think of
Speaker 4: pivotal games and Jason.
Speaker 1: When we have questions about Tatum, it's never talent, it's moments,
Speaker 1: it's intensity, it's the Kobe MJ shits, tied eighty six all.
Speaker 5: So this series just didn't have any of that stuff.
Speaker 4: No, I agree, And like, as far as the finals
Speaker 4: MVP thing goes, like I I think I personally would
Speaker 4: be okay with either of them getting it, and the
Speaker 4: case the case for Tatum is like I like it
Speaker 4: when the history books tell the story of that team.
Speaker 4: And to me, even though Jalen Brown played better than
Speaker 4: Jason Tatum over the course of this playoff run, I
Speaker 4: thought Tatum was the best player on the team for
Speaker 4: the entirety of the season. Like I thought, yes, Tatum
Speaker 4: was the three like And so if I look back,
Speaker 4: and if I look back at the Wikipedia page and
Speaker 4: it's his twenty twenty four NBA Champion, the Celtics, Jason
Speaker 4: Tatum Finals MVP, I'm cool with that. But he was
Speaker 4: the best player in the series one game out of
Speaker 4: five tries. In addition to that. In addition to that,
Speaker 4: I thought Jalen Brown had the biggest pivotal shots of
Speaker 4: the series in that late game run from Dallas. In
Speaker 4: Game two, he had the driving left handed layup over
Speaker 4: Maxi Kleeba. In Game three when it was in crunch
Speaker 4: time there late he hit those two massive fadeaway mid
Speaker 4: range jump shots that kind of ic the game. I
Speaker 4: thought he had the most iconic plays of the series.
Speaker 4: I thought those two dunks, those two driving one handed
Speaker 4: monster slams he had were like the iconic dunks of
Speaker 4: the series. And so for me, like I'm cool with
Speaker 4: Jason Tatum winning the award. Yeah, I believe Jalen Brown
Speaker 4: observes it and I just deserves it. And I just
Speaker 4: got the text message from our guy, Josh, Jalen Brown
Speaker 4: has won Finals MVP.
Speaker 3: What do you have to say about that?
Speaker 1: Well, I think he was the better player consistently. I
Speaker 1: think your point's the best one all the big shots
Speaker 1: you on. I do think the first two games of
Speaker 1: the series those are tone setters, Like like you mean,
Speaker 1: if Dallas wins one of those games, you lose home
Speaker 1: court advantage. And we said, both of us said coming
Speaker 1: into the series the pressure was all on Boston. So
Speaker 1: winning those first two games at home was not just
Speaker 1: hey we protected home. It kind of made a statement.
Speaker 1: And in both games, if not for a brief Dallas run,
Speaker 1: they had a really good fourth quarter. If I recall
Speaker 1: in Game two, Boston was clearly the better team. So
Speaker 1: that the tone setting games here were games one and two,
Speaker 1: and Jalen Brown was clearly the best player, And so
Speaker 1: I think they got it right. It's nothing, you know,
Speaker 1: I can love a player but not love a series.
Speaker 1: I mean, remember when the meta hit the game winner
Speaker 1: in Game seven for the Lakers over the Celtics. Kobe
Speaker 1: was awful in Game seven. He was just just couldn't
Speaker 1: hit anything. Kobe's so remarkable, he just had a horrible night.
Speaker 1: We got to be honest about that stuff. And so
Speaker 1: I credit the people who voted on this because I
Speaker 1: thought Jatam Jalen Brown Eastern Conference Finals and Finals was
Speaker 1: the better player. Tatum, to your point, on a macro level,
Speaker 1: was the best Celtic all year. I think that's absolutely true.
Speaker 1: And two things can be simultaneously true.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, And like as far as the Jalen Brown
Speaker 4: piece goes, I really only have a problem with the
Speaker 4: non Superstar Finals MVP when we get into box score
Speaker 4: watching and we start giving it to like a role player,
Speaker 4: like that was the Travis d Yeah of the twenty
Speaker 4: fifteen Warriors, Like Steph Curry's getting blitzed all game and
Speaker 4: Andre Goudala is getting wide open dunks and corner threes
Speaker 4: because Steph's getting blitzed. A and a Cavs team with
Speaker 4: one star Andre Gudala held for shooting percentage and then
Speaker 4: the voters end up suddenly giving the award to Andrea Goadala,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, what are we doing here?
Speaker 3: But this is not what happened here.
Speaker 4: Like we've discussed multiple times throughout the series, Jalen Brown
Speaker 4: is playing at a level that is similar to Jason Tatum's,
Speaker 4: Like he is ascending. And you know, one of the
Speaker 4: things that I think is fascinating about that is you
Speaker 4: and I talked in the after the Eastern Conference Finals
Speaker 4: last year. We talked about should they look into trading
Speaker 4: Jalen Brown, And one of the things I said, if
Speaker 4: you remember, was I said, they have a better chance
Speaker 4: of Jalen Brown improving into what they need than they
Speaker 4: do to try to flip a player of his caliber
Speaker 4: into a better player, which was obviously a long shot
Speaker 4: or risky shot. And so to Boston's credit, they just
Speaker 4: kind of like, let these guys play through their lumps.
Speaker 4: And here comes Jalen Brown going from flat out embarrassing
Speaker 4: against Miami last year he was bad against Miami last
Speaker 4: year to being the Eastern Conference Finals MVP and the
Speaker 4: NBA Finals MVP. And one other thing I wanted to
Speaker 4: say before I kick it back to you, this is
Speaker 4: what scares me about the Tatum piece moving forward. He's
Speaker 4: not as bad offensively as he showed in this playoff run.
Speaker 4: There's this thing. There's this thing that can happen in basketball.
Speaker 4: I don't have an explanation for it. This is all
Speaker 4: part of that whole basketball is more art than science thing.
Speaker 4: But Tatum's been in one hell of a shooting slump
Speaker 4: in this postseason. He's been getting like eight tenths of
Speaker 4: a point per jump shot when he's typically a solid
Speaker 4: twenty percent.
Speaker 3: Better than that. And one of the things, one of
Speaker 3: the things to keep in mind.
Speaker 4: There is like, Boston's gonna be back next year and
Speaker 4: Tatum's probably not gonna shoot this poorly, and so like,
Speaker 4: even though Tatum's are a Jalen Brown's a deserving MVP, like,
Speaker 4: Tatum's not going anywhere, and he's gonna be here leading
Speaker 4: this charge next year. And like, one of the nice things, too,
Speaker 4: is his demeanor is the kind of guy that doesn't
Speaker 4: take this sort of thing personally, and so I'm kind
Speaker 4: of happy for him both in that regard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to pivot a little bit though, to
Speaker 1: Kyrie Irving, and I thought about this, so you know again,
Speaker 1: basketball is the artist sport. It's international soccer. It does
Speaker 1: matter how you play, not just that you score. And
Speaker 1: Messi's Pele just their artists and that there's absolute value
Speaker 1: in that. And same in basketball. Doctor j stylistically magic
Speaker 1: was cooler than bird. Michael Jordan was great, looking, well dressed,
Speaker 1: super fun. You know everything about.
Speaker 5: MJ just just felt big. Duncan was boring.
Speaker 1: And there's a reason, you know, history has been kind
Speaker 1: of cruel to Tim Duncan, who's better than anybody wants
Speaker 1: to acknowledge, and nobody except people in San Antonio will
Speaker 1: acknowledge how dominating he was. He didn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of style. But Kyrie Irving played eight games at Duke,
Speaker 1: no impact. Was kind of a bust. Pre Lebron in Cleveland, like,
Speaker 1: couldn't stay healthy, nobody liked him. Goes to Boston, doesn't
Speaker 1: work Brooklyn uh first, early early in Dallas, you kind
Speaker 1: of weren't sure. And then he has this playoff run
Speaker 1: and we're all like, this is great. So take out
Speaker 1: a couple of years with Lebron in his prime, Lebron
Speaker 1: made everybody look great, everybody, and Kyrie bailed on that
Speaker 1: in this great run. A no show in the finals
Speaker 1: and all over the map. Offensively, he had bad, bad
Speaker 1: shooting nights, and I'm not giving you much in rebounding,
Speaker 1: assists and defense, like he needs to shoot. Well, SE's
Speaker 1: not Jalen Brown where he could. You could tell me
Speaker 1: he's four for fourteen and he'd have eight rebound, seven assistant.
Speaker 1: You know, play the hell out of the defensive end.
Speaker 1: That's not what Kyrie is. You need him to shoot.
Speaker 1: So you know, I look at Kyrie and I understand
Speaker 1: the finishing package. It's artistry. It's beautiful, no dispute. But
Speaker 1: even this playoff run, like you know, Anthony Davis gets
Speaker 1: criticized sometimes for being inconsistent, not defensively. I get a
Speaker 1: star and offensively three out of four nights.
Speaker 5: I know what I get.
Speaker 1: Like I know Lebron loves Kyrie. Ad is a more
Speaker 1: consistent star player. Jalen Brown's a better basketball player. I
Speaker 1: thought Kyrie in these playoffs, his highs are so high, Jason,
Speaker 1: you can't take your eyes off it. It's a firework show.
Speaker 1: It's awe inspiring. It's the singer hitting the highest note.
Speaker 1: But man, he throws out some stinkers he had. He
Speaker 1: was invisible for portions of this game. He didn't score
Speaker 1: in the first quarter, like the most important quarter.
Speaker 5: Of the season for the MAVs.
Speaker 1: He didn't do anything. There's my there's my Kyrie take that.
Speaker 1: His his aesthetic beauty overshadows a lot of nights where
Speaker 1: he gives you if he's not shooting, well, he doesn't
Speaker 1: give you anything else at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Pretty consistently in my player rankings have had him right
Speaker 4: around that twenty spot when I'm when I'm ranking players,
Speaker 4: I'm generally higher on Kyrie.
Speaker 3: Than some people.
Speaker 4: There's a there's a pretty substantial anti Kyrie coalition out
Speaker 4: there for obvious reasons because of his off court stuff.
Speaker 3: And like, one of the things.
Speaker 4: With with with this particular team that I look at
Speaker 4: is like I remember going into the series, there were
Speaker 4: people saying like, oh what if, what if Luke and
Speaker 4: Kyrie are the two best players in the series, And I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, whoaa, hold on, Like let's let's chill out. Like
Speaker 3: I like Kyrie.
Speaker 4: He's got this incredible upside, which is what you're referring to,
Speaker 4: which is the fireworks show. But what he is is
Speaker 4: he is an average too slightly above average kind of
Speaker 4: guard defender when he's playing hard, but he had a
Speaker 4: pretty bad defensive series. He is a guy that is
Speaker 4: a pull up jump shooter. And so guess what happens
Speaker 4: with pull up jump shooters. Sometimes they go in, sometimes
Speaker 4: they don't. And and and that's that to me, is
Speaker 4: like there's like one pull up jump shooter in NBA
Speaker 4: history who's just been like reliably great in the postseason.
Speaker 4: That's Steph Curry, you know what I mean. All the
Speaker 4: other guys, they're the freaky athletes that can get to
Speaker 4: the rim consistently and dominate the game physically in some way,
Speaker 4: shape or form. Right, And so honestly, like, because this
Speaker 4: is one of my big takeaways from from Dallas, and
Speaker 4: like I've been kind of feeling this way since the
Speaker 4: beginning of the series. But I don't think this Dallas
Speaker 4: Mavericks team is close. And you kind of mentioned this
Speaker 4: in your opening He's.
Speaker 5: Like, I don't either.
Speaker 1: I don't either.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think they're close. I think that they
Speaker 4: caught some really favorable matchups out in the Western I
Speaker 4: think they're good. I think I think there was a
Speaker 4: tier of teams beneath Denver where all the West was,
Speaker 4: and they managed to kind of weave their way through
Speaker 4: that with some favorable matchups. Right, But like, I think
Speaker 4: Denver would have beaten them pretty soundly in the Western
Speaker 4: Conference Finals. I think they would have gotten them.
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Speaker 1: This is a paid advertisement. The other thing we have
Speaker 1: to admit Jason is because of Luca's ball usage. I
Speaker 1: felt like he wasn't healthy for the last two series.
Speaker 1: He looked, He looked fatigued, he looked beat up. So again,
Speaker 1: when when Kyrie is not delivering, it becomes very Luca dominant.
Speaker 1: I thought he looked. I thought you were getting about
Speaker 1: eighty percent of Luca in this finals. And some of
Speaker 1: that's just when you're the guy and it's little Jalen Brunson.
Speaker 1: It's like Jalen's great, but there are limitations to you know,
Speaker 1: when Jalen went on that forty point run, You're like,
Speaker 1: this isn't gonna end well, Like he's just you can't.
Speaker 1: You can't be that dominant. You have to be able to,
Speaker 1: you know. And that's why the Celtics work is that
Speaker 1: Tatum wasn't good in the first two games. He and
Speaker 1: Brown were both good. In Game three tonight, Tatum was superior.
Speaker 1: I mean there were Knights that Derek White, I mean
Speaker 1: presser before the half, like it's symphonic watching Boston. They're
Speaker 1: just handing the baton off man Luca. He had that
Speaker 1: baton out multiple times and nobody grabbed it, and I
Speaker 1: thought he looked and that's I agree with you. Okay,
Speaker 1: sees only getting better. Denver's already favored, Boston's not getting
Speaker 1: significantly worse.
Speaker 3: Sixth or sec.
Speaker 5: And by the way.
Speaker 1: Keep your eye on what Houston's doing. They had a
Speaker 1: strikes this year. You're like, oh, you know, they're probably
Speaker 1: a vat in a way. So listen, we've seen this before.
Speaker 1: It's like in the NFL, the loser of the Super Bowl,
Speaker 1: like most of the time, doesn't farewell like this. This
Speaker 1: felt like a magical moment in time for Dallas, but
Speaker 1: there's some real flaws here. We would both acknowledge that
Speaker 1: it is too Luca dependent. That's what it feels. It
Speaker 1: does feel like that Cavs team that was really very
Speaker 1: Lebron dependent, played with great energy if you remember Zill Goscas.
Speaker 1: I mean, they played with tremendous energy. Lebron was captivating,
Speaker 1: they had streaky shooters on the wing. But then you
Speaker 1: watch them against San Antonio and you're like, all right,
Speaker 1: they you know, five of the best six players are
Speaker 1: all Spurs. And that's how I felt in this series.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I find fascinating, and I'm
Speaker 4: actually curious to get your take on this. Like one
Speaker 4: of the things that is hard to do in a
Speaker 4: situation like this after you have a successful postseason run
Speaker 4: is to be realistic about how far you are away.
Speaker 4: And so, for instance, Lakers fans last year, it's like,
Speaker 4: we made the Western Conference finals and I'm like, okay, Well,
Speaker 4: like Golden State has always struggled against big athletic teams,
Speaker 4: that was a pretty favorable matchup for you. And then
Speaker 4: also that Memphis team, young John Morant driving into Anthony
Speaker 4: Davis all series was obviously not going to work. So
Speaker 4: it's like you got a couple of favorable matchups, then
Speaker 4: you ran into a real championship level team in Denver
Speaker 4: and you got your ass kicked.
Speaker 3: So you're not.
Speaker 4: Close, right, right, So when I look at that, when
Speaker 4: I look at the Dallas piece, this is what I
Speaker 4: think about, Like when the circumstances are favorable, meaning like
Speaker 4: when Luca has obvious mismatches, he can pick at the
Speaker 4: entire series, and then on the other end of the floor,
Speaker 4: when they can really load up the strong side and
Speaker 4: keep their rim protectors at the rim and hide Luca
Speaker 4: on the opposite end of the floor, they can get stops.
Speaker 4: But where I get concerned is how many times in
Speaker 4: NBA history have we seen a team led by two
Speaker 4: stars that are both at least combining for two bad
Speaker 4: defensive players that go win the title. It's exceedingly rare.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, one of the things that I wonder
Speaker 4: I shouldn't say exceedingly rat can't think of one. It's
Speaker 4: never happened like I would say, I would even say,
Speaker 4: like the case would be, oh, what about Jamal Murray,
Speaker 4: Nicola Jokicic, which I understand, But the flip side there
Speaker 4: is like even the two of them were not this
Speaker 4: type of like like Jokis was a dominant defensive rebounder
Speaker 4: who could actually do some stuff in pick and roll
Speaker 4: coverages defensively, and Jamal Murray did his job, and he's bigger.
Speaker 3: Jamal Murray's bigger than Kyrie.
Speaker 1: They also had an elite defender right off that in Gordon,
Speaker 1: So they had Yeah, I mean they they accentuated, like
Speaker 1: you know, it's like the Mavericks or like the Warriors.
Speaker 1: They hid steph Igwoodola Clay. So you can get away
Speaker 1: with your star not being an elite defender. But you
Speaker 1: have to have elements. You have to have size, Jokic, athleticism,
Speaker 1: Gordon like that. That's not what this Dallas team is.
Speaker 1: It's it's their two stars are Luca is disengaged a
Speaker 1: lot defensively.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was terrible in four of the five games
Speaker 4: of the series defensive I thought he was bad again tonight.
Speaker 4: They were just bringing him up into the ball screen.
Speaker 4: He would just kind of stand around in no man's lander,
Speaker 4: holiday slip out of it.
Speaker 3: He'd get a layup, they get him.
Speaker 4: On a they're the at the end of the first half,
Speaker 4: just like Game two, they just attacked him and switched
Speaker 4: his time and time and time again and scored every
Speaker 4: single time. Like it's a real issue, and so let
Speaker 4: me just pitch it back to you, like, this is
Speaker 4: the version of a Luka Doncic led team that wins
Speaker 4: the title one day? Is that version of that team
Speaker 4: constructed around Luca and then a secondary star that is
Speaker 4: an elite athlete that can impact the game more with
Speaker 4: his physical tools rather than with his skill.
Speaker 3: Because I wonder if this Dallas.
Speaker 4: Team is always going to be the kind of team
Speaker 4: that can beat certain matchups but will always struggle against
Speaker 4: teams that can spread them out just simply because that's
Speaker 4: just two way, two weak points in their defense. Do
Speaker 4: you think that that's what the direction they're gonna have
Speaker 4: to go eventually?
Speaker 1: I think literally a perfect player for Lucas Paul George
Speaker 1: probably privately doesn't want the final shot.
Speaker 5: Luca does.
Speaker 1: Excellent defender, long willing, can give you thirty in non
Speaker 1: pressure situations. Could really have nights where Luca can almost
Speaker 1: take a back seat. But in the big moments, you know,
Speaker 1: Paul sometimes takes weird shots or bad shots. Luca doesn't like.
Speaker 1: This is one of these things. It's a better story
Speaker 1: than a team. Kyrie's not the fit. A poor defensive
Speaker 1: player who's hot and cold and needs the ball.
Speaker 5: That's not the fit.
Speaker 1: The fit is a long wing defender who can score thirty,
Speaker 1: but like a Pippin, has no problem letting the guy,
Speaker 1: letting the man shoot. Paul's always been a you know,
Speaker 1: Paul can hit the big shot, but it's like he
Speaker 1: can also back away from it. He's not a selfish player,
Speaker 1: so it's it's Paul George is one of those guys.
Speaker 1: He kind of works with everybody. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: Paul's gotten a bad rap, I mean, and he kind
Speaker 1: of fits everywhere. You go back to those Miami Heat series.
Speaker 1: Paul was working with Roy Hibbert, a non score, George Hill,
Speaker 1: you know, Frank Vogel who loved Bigs not you now
Speaker 1: gut guards they give Miami Wade and Bosh and Battie
Speaker 1: and Lebron. They gave him troubles. Those were really good series.
Speaker 1: So I just think it's one of those. You know,
Speaker 1: Kyrie Luca, the movie poster is better than the movie.
Speaker 1: I think they need a different star. And this is
Speaker 1: something I was told years ago by a GM like
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. He said, it's not about the star.
Speaker 1: Having a star in the league. There's a lot of them.
Speaker 1: It's the right star. And then once you get that star.
Speaker 1: The Warriors were brilliant. Here's Steph's deficiencies. Let's just layer
Speaker 1: it and protect him. It's like hockey. Our great score
Speaker 1: is a finesse player, Let's protect him. You have to
Speaker 1: protect You don't have to protect Tatum. You have to
Speaker 1: augment some offensive you know, production porzingis more scores. You
Speaker 1: don't have to protect Tatum. You have to protect Luca defensively.
Speaker 1: Like I've said this he's a much better Carmelo Anthony.
Speaker 1: He's much better, but disengaged defensively. Not sure he's in
Speaker 1: great shape. You know, it's kind of he's the sun.
Speaker 1: Everything revolves around it sort of. So I'm not anti Luca,
Speaker 1: but I don't see him being part of a dynasty.
Speaker 1: I just think he's a He's a meteor. He just
Speaker 1: don't see stuff like this in the history of basketball.
Speaker 1: But all stars are not equal, like Duncan is exactly
Speaker 1: what you want your star to be, kind of boring,
Speaker 1: does everything well, doesn't have to take the final shot
Speaker 1: in the end, sacrifice salary, like Duncan's never gotten the respect.
Speaker 1: Like he literally did everything well except handle the ball.
Speaker 1: And what did they put around him, Parker Manu, you
Speaker 1: know ball handlers. So I just think spectacular, But there
Speaker 1: is you have to protect him more than anybody wants
Speaker 1: to acknowledge.
Speaker 5: I guess that's my take again.
Speaker 4: Yeah, again, it's about acknowledging that you're not close and
Speaker 4: so I think there's a bunch of different things that
Speaker 4: they have to address. The first piece is Lucas specifically,
Speaker 4: and we talked about this a lot after Game three,
Speaker 4: has to get in better shape, has to make a
Speaker 4: commitment to the defensive end, Like I want to see
Speaker 4: Luca come in next year and look different physically, because
Speaker 4: this is year after year that this has been an
Speaker 4: issue and that he's not made any sort of attempt
Speaker 4: to address.
Speaker 3: So that's the first piece of it.
Speaker 4: The second piece of it is we've seen this consistently
Speaker 4: with Dallas. They've kept trying to build the same team
Speaker 4: around him, because we saw this with Brunson, with Brunson
Speaker 4: and Dorian Phinney Smith and that team that went to
Speaker 4: the Western Conference finals two years ago, Like they've built
Speaker 4: a team around two shot creators and then play finishers
Speaker 4: and like what just like what happened against the Warriors
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty two. Eventually they're like, actually, we're just
Speaker 4: kind of fine with Luca taking these you know, tough
Speaker 4: content to two point jump shots. Is his step back
Speaker 4: three just isn't reliable enough, Like it once again this
Speaker 4: entire postseason run, he just could knock it down at
Speaker 4: a high enough rate. Like there's a lot of like
Speaker 4: games where he has thirty points on twenty seven shots,
Speaker 4: and you're like, this isn't actually something that's causing problems
Speaker 4: for the for the for the opposing team, and so
Speaker 4: like I look at it too, like one of the
Speaker 4: things I like about doing something like going after a
Speaker 4: Paul George or more of like a skilled like a
Speaker 4: multi talented forward is it makes for less redundancy. It
Speaker 4: makes it so that you can, like like it makes
Speaker 4: you a different type of team to deal with on
Speaker 4: a possession by possession basis, because what happens is when
Speaker 4: you lean on the Kyrie thing, it's like Kyrie has
Speaker 4: a rough series, Suddenly he doesn't bring anything else to
Speaker 4: the table, and now you look severely limited. And so
Speaker 4: I think I think in general, they've just got to
Speaker 4: have kind of like this self awareness to acknowledge that
Speaker 4: they're not close and to make these structural changes. But
Speaker 4: one of the problems, Colin is I don't think they're
Speaker 4: going to I think they're gonna run it right back
Speaker 4: and be like, Oh, Derek Lively's gonna lead us to
Speaker 4: the Promised Land next year. He's gonna wait better. And
Speaker 4: you know what, I think they're gonna lose in like
Speaker 4: the first or second round next year in a jam
Speaker 4: packed Western Conference when they catch an unfortunate matchup.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the Celtics very deserving. Don't forget
Speaker 1: they had a dominant record. They lost to Denver, but
Speaker 1: they had a dominant record against the West, even more
Speaker 1: dominating against the East. Flushed through the Eastern Conference playoffs
Speaker 1: and the finals. So you know, there are these teams
Speaker 1: too that you know, we're so used to dynasties in
Speaker 1: the NBA. I was talking to Chris bruce Hard today.
Speaker 1: We were talking about teams that won a championship that
Speaker 1: weren't a dynasty, but they were great teams. And one
Speaker 1: of the first ones was the Jerry West, Gail Goodrich
Speaker 1: Wilt Chamberlain. Remember that thirty three game winning Shriek Laker
Speaker 1: team that I think beat the Knicks and won a championship. Now,
Speaker 1: they didn't reel off a lot of them, but in
Speaker 1: a singular season that was an older Wilt. That's one
Speaker 1: of the greatest teams of all time. There was a
Speaker 1: seventy six ers team that had Moses Malone joined Julius
Speaker 1: Irving and they were kind of missing a dominating interior
Speaker 1: scoring presence and for a year or two, Jesus, I
Speaker 1: remember those Sixers well, like Malone was, It's just hard
Speaker 1: to exp Moses Malone. If you ever saw him play,
Speaker 1: nobody discusses him. He was as dominating a rebounder as
Speaker 1: I've ever seen in the history of basketball, with Doctor
Speaker 1: J and good guard play, and I think Boston falls
Speaker 1: into that group. So right now, like we thought Denver
Speaker 1: was gonna run off two or three Boston in a
Speaker 1: single season like that West good Rich Wilt team or
Speaker 1: the Moses Malone Doctor J t for a season lightning
Speaker 1: in a bottle health spectacular. You know, just just flush
Speaker 1: through the playoffs. The question will become they will play
Speaker 1: with a champion swagger next year. They probably won't be
Speaker 1: as relentless in the regular season. This is, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of predictable. They'll they'll be you know, they'll have
Speaker 1: their little swoons and won't be But I do think
Speaker 1: there's a chance it's a back to back championship because
Speaker 1: cross your fingers on Porzingis's health. You know they're bringing
Speaker 1: the guys back. You'll play with more confidence. Tatum comes
Speaker 1: into a season like, Okay, I got it, I got
Speaker 1: my money, I got my title. I think it does
Speaker 1: take pressure. I think it was building you and I
Speaker 1: said this this was Celtics had to win this after
Speaker 1: that Warriors Final where they came home and kind of
Speaker 1: laid an egg emotionally. They had to play well in
Speaker 1: this series. I thought by second quarter game too, it
Speaker 1: was like this is a mismatch. But I think next
Speaker 1: year you'll see this goes down to me is a
Speaker 1: in moment in time, a great team in a great moment,
Speaker 1: too good not to win a championship, but at times
Speaker 1: too weird to be a dynasty. I mean, Jalen Brown
Speaker 1: wins the MVP and they averaged twenty a game. He
Speaker 1: didn't everge thirty, You didn't neverge twenty eight. He averaged
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one a game and was the MVP for
Speaker 1: the second straight series. So historically, can we acknowledge they're
Speaker 1: a little bit of an odd great team?
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, yeah, no, they're They're absolutely weird.
Speaker 4: I mean like when we think about the when we
Speaker 4: list the all time great teams in NBA history, we
Speaker 4: think like twenty seventeen Warriors, twenty thirteen he you know,
Speaker 4: teams like the the two thousand and one Lakers, the
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety six Bowls, right, the nineteen eighty six Celtics,
Speaker 4: like the nineteen eighty seven Lakers. We think of these teams,
Speaker 4: and every single one of them is led by one
Speaker 4: of the five best team players in NBA history. In
Speaker 4: my opinion, Steph Curry is the fifth best perimeter player
Speaker 4: that's played since nineteen eighty. Like, I think he's right
Speaker 4: up there with Bird and Magic in that tier. So
Speaker 4: like these it's just funky to see a team that
Speaker 4: is as dominant as the Celtics have been. But I
Speaker 4: think one of the things too, is this kind of
Speaker 4: stuff bears out in time. Like you know what Celtics fans,
Speaker 4: they're going to want a certain amount of, like the
Speaker 4: credit for being dominant, and like here's the thing, like
Speaker 4: you beat you beat the Calves, the Heat without Jimmy Butler,
Speaker 4: the Pacers and the Maps. So like like I'm not
Speaker 4: trying to like, but one of the things with NBA
Speaker 4: history because like people said this about the Nuggets last year,
Speaker 4: and I thought the Nuggets run was a little underrated
Speaker 4: because they went through Lebron and Ad, and they went
Speaker 4: through Kad and Devin Booker, and they went through Jimmy
Speaker 4: Butler and bam at a bio. Like I actually thought
Speaker 4: that Nuggets team, Yeah, played some tough opponents, but like
Speaker 4: everyone was like, oh, Denver had an easier path. Well,
Speaker 4: guess what happened this year? They had to play a
Speaker 4: really tough team in the second round. They lost, So yeah,
Speaker 4: NBA history has a chance has a kind of like
Speaker 4: a habit of working these sorts of things out. Like
Speaker 4: next year, they're probably going to have to play a
Speaker 4: Milwaukee in a playoff series, or a healthy Knicks team,
Speaker 4: or a team like Denver out of the Western Conference,
Speaker 4: or maybe what if Oklahoma City makes some big trade
Speaker 4: this summer and they end up going to the finals
Speaker 4: and it ends up like NBA history is a kind
Speaker 4: of a habit of working these things out, Everything about
Speaker 4: how this team is is gonna be about the big picture.
Speaker 4: So for instance, if they lose, if they lose next year,
Speaker 4: you're gonna zoom out on a three year window here,
Speaker 4: and you're gonna be like embarrassing loss against the Heat
Speaker 4: in the conference finals, beat four mediocre teams, then lost
Speaker 4: the following year. People will write the story of that
Speaker 4: Celtics team as an underachieving, overly talented team. But if
Speaker 4: they go out next year and they beat better teams
Speaker 4: on their way to the Larry O'Brien, people will zoom
Speaker 4: out and be like this is an all time great team.
Speaker 4: So like that's the thing, Like you're gonna get another
Speaker 4: crack at the table next year. It's like Jason Tatum said,
Speaker 4: gotta do it again next year. Go ahead, do it
Speaker 4: and it'll shut everybody up. Like these things get worked
Speaker 4: out with wins.
Speaker 1: I think a team that keep your eye on is
Speaker 1: the Knicks. I think one of the great things if
Speaker 1: you're a Knicks fan, because they don't match up from
Speaker 1: an offensive perspective. They just don't have They don't have
Speaker 1: that many guys that can catch it and shoot it
Speaker 1: and ball pass. One of the things that's great about
Speaker 1: the Celtics winning if you're a Knicks fan, it does
Speaker 1: force you some urgency, like, guys, we can't make us
Speaker 1: a tweak. We're not a tweak away from beating Boston,
Speaker 1: Like we got to go out and get guys like
Speaker 1: Michale Bridges and another score. Boston really puts pressure on
Speaker 1: Eastern teams. It's one thing if you if you're a
Speaker 1: Western team and you lose to Boston in the finals.
Speaker 1: You got to the finals, but you're you're not getting
Speaker 1: past Boston in New York with a tweak you're just
Speaker 1: not you know, even Miami Bam and Butler. You know,
Speaker 1: Butler will probably be banged up by the time, you know,
Speaker 1: if he if he, if he's a Miami Heat, they
Speaker 1: need another not Tyler hero, they need another player.
Speaker 5: So it's this is the good thing.
Speaker 1: If you're a Miami fan or a Knicks fan or
Speaker 1: a Sixers fan, this is like, guys, this wasn't competitive
Speaker 1: like this. They just I mean, how how many blowouts
Speaker 1: they had, like thirteen blowout wins. It's like, tweaking is
Speaker 1: not beating. Nobody in the East has Yokich. Okay, you
Speaker 1: don't have Yokich. So Tweaking's not gonna do it. And
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of the advantages. I say this
Speaker 1: in sports all the time. The great thing about harbaught Michigan.
Speaker 1: For a Buckeye fan, it puts pressure on going and
Speaker 1: getting Chip Kelly as an offensive coordinator. It's like they're
Speaker 1: throwing they're pushing us around three years in a row.
Speaker 1: You want your rival to be viable because it puts
Speaker 1: pressure on your owner and your front office. And so
Speaker 1: I'm watching this game tonight and I'm thinking, if I'm
Speaker 1: a Knicks fan, you may hate Boston, but your front office,
Speaker 1: these are smart people now in New York running that franchise.
Speaker 1: You got to bring a Michale Bridges on and another
Speaker 1: guy that can drop twenty Devivincenzo's become a great catch
Speaker 1: and shoot guy Brunston's gonna give you twenty eight. McHale
Speaker 1: Bridges could give you twenty four. And I've got to
Speaker 1: get somebody better than Mitchell Robinson in the post that
Speaker 1: can give me offense. So it's that's the upside for
Speaker 1: the Eastern Conference teams is I think Darryl Moury, the Knicks, uh,
Speaker 1: you know Indian if they can get somebody, the pressure's on.
Speaker 1: You got to add multiple pieces over the next couple
Speaker 1: of years to beat these guys.
Speaker 4: And aggression is gonna be the key, because again, like,
Speaker 4: how did Boston do this? They did this by trading
Speaker 4: for Drew Holliday and chrisps Porzinkis, Like Brad Stevens just
Speaker 4: hit two massive home runs. I went back and looked
Speaker 4: at that trade and saw that they ended up like
Speaker 4: netting two first round picks in the Porzingis trade, and
Speaker 4: I'm like, ah, man, like anybody could have had him.
Speaker 4: And then Boston went and got him, and then you know,
Speaker 4: like even looking at Denver, it's like they went and
Speaker 4: got KCP. They went and got Aaron Gordon. Like those
Speaker 4: are two like slam dunk moves to surround Jamal Murray,
Speaker 4: Michael Porter Junior and NICOLEA Jokic. They just there. That
Speaker 4: aggression is the big piece there. Even going back to
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one, they won after they traded for Drew Holliday,
Speaker 4: the Bucks did, they traded for Drew Holliday, They went
Speaker 4: and they won the title. And so like, keep an
Speaker 4: eye on those aggressive teams this summer, the teams that
Speaker 4: add talent.
Speaker 3: There are a lot of young.
Speaker 4: Teams in the NBA right now that are like this
Speaker 4: close to becoming great. That Thunder team, that Orlando Magic
Speaker 4: team is probably like two years away, but they're gonna
Speaker 4: be really, really good. You mentioned the Pacers. If they
Speaker 4: if they make maybe one more edition this offseason, they
Speaker 4: could be in the mix. The Knicks are obviously gonna
Speaker 4: be aggressive. I mentioned Memphis earlier. Like Memphis, this kid
Speaker 4: Gigi Jackson that they have on the wing is awesome
Speaker 4: that they discovered this year. He like slots perfectly between
Speaker 4: Jamrant Desmond Bain. They're gonna have Jaron Jackson coming back.
Speaker 4: They're gonna have a big look. They're gonna go get
Speaker 4: a center, and they're gonna have a massive frontline that
Speaker 4: could contend with Denver. As long as Jamran can like
Speaker 4: stay healthy and available for his team, I think they
Speaker 4: could be really good.
Speaker 3: Like the league is just.
Speaker 4: Like this Celtics team is kind of settling right in
Speaker 4: this nice little opening here where all the older teams
Speaker 4: are kind of falling apart and all the younger teams
Speaker 4: are not quite there yet, and they're having a lot
Speaker 4: of success as a result.
Speaker 1: Jason timp hoops tonight been a blast NBA Finals. It's
Speaker 1: in the books. The Celtics too good, as we said,
Speaker 1: to not win a finals it was this year. Really,
Speaker 1: it's got a Lebron Calves Duncan Spurs feel to it
Speaker 1: where you kind of knew early on, you know, four
Speaker 1: or five of the top six players felt like they
Speaker 1: were all in Boston. They also, you know, I wrote
Speaker 1: this down in my notes, when Boston in the third quarter,
Speaker 1: when they're playing collaborative basketball, it's beautiful they are. I mean,
Speaker 1: it is like a it's almost like they're playing and
Speaker 1: when they're playing comfortably, and in this series they were
Speaker 1: it's loose. I mean they are really like those Warrior teams,
Speaker 1: even with KD and Clay and Steph, you know guys
Speaker 1: that shoot a lot. They were pretty That was really
Speaker 1: beautiful basketball. The Celtics had moments tonight and in this
Speaker 1: series you're like, that's how to play basketball. That's just drive,
Speaker 1: pitch high, IQ. Everybody fits, no animosity. All starts with Tatum,
Speaker 1: who's sort of you know, he's the ultimate guy. But
Speaker 1: Boston a confident Boston looks like a champion and they
Speaker 1: were never put in a position to question themselves in
Speaker 1: this series or in the playoffs. A confident Celtic team
Speaker 1: like tonight this series, that looks like what an NBA
Speaker 1: champion does.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they played a fun brand of basketball. I enjoyed
Speaker 4: watching him, Colin. This has been another fun postseason in
Speaker 4: the books. I'm sure we'll touch base at some point
Speaker 4: during free agency, but I always enjoy talking basketball with
Speaker 4: you during the Finals. We're gonna call it a night, guys.
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Speaker 4: We will be back tomorrow to get a little bit
Speaker 4: deeper into some of the NBA Finals stories lie storylines,
Speaker 4: and then we're turning our attention to the draft and
Speaker 4: free agency, because the NBA calendar never ends. As always,
Speaker 4: I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting me and Colin
Speaker 4: in the volume, as well as our channels that we've
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