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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's us and we're here to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about get this our book. We have a Stuff

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Speaker 1: you Should Know book coming out this November and you're

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Speaker 1: going to love it and you can preorder it now.

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Speaker 1: That's right. It's called Stuff you Should Know Colon, an

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Speaker 1: incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things, and it's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of fun to work on and we're really, i

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Speaker 1: mean genuinely excited about how this thing has come together.

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Speaker 1: It's twenties six chunky Harry chapters that are just going

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Speaker 1: to knock your socks clean off. And yes, Chuck, we

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Speaker 1: are indeed proud of this book. It is truly, indubitably

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Speaker 1: the first Stuff you Should note book and it's coming

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Speaker 1: out this November and you can order it now, pre

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Speaker 1: order everywhere you get books, so do that, and we

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Speaker 1: thank you in advice. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know,

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Speaker 1: a production of our Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, there's Chuck, Jerry's

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Speaker 1: out there and that ether somewhere. Um like that one

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Speaker 1: kid being transmitted from the camera to the TV in

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Speaker 1: Willy Wonka. Wow, I got that one eight kinds of wrong.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, this is stuff you should know which is appropriate?

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Speaker 1: Did I would get something eight kinds of wrong right

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Speaker 1: at the beginning. Did you ever hear the story from

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Speaker 1: Gene Wilder about the move at the beginning of that

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Speaker 1: movie where he walks out with a cane where he

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Speaker 1: did the spill the summersault. Yeah, he see sticks a

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Speaker 1: cane in the ground and does a summer salt. He

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Speaker 1: said that that was his idea. And this just shows

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Speaker 1: the brilliance of Gene Wilder, And he said he did

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Speaker 1: that because he knew from that moment on no one

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Speaker 1: would believe anything that that character said. Oh yes, I

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Speaker 1: have heard that before. That is that is brilliant. That

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Speaker 1: man was a brilliant man in a wonderful human being.

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Speaker 1: I loved him. He's got One of his last interviews

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Speaker 1: on Conan O'Brien was so great because Conan was just

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Speaker 1: gushing and Gene Wilder was very I think, kind of

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Speaker 1: taken back by how much he means to people. Um uh,

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Speaker 1: have you ever seen? Oh no, that wasn't the question

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Speaker 1: I had. Did you know? Did you know that? The

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Speaker 1: question was did you fart? Did you know that Conan

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Speaker 1: O'Brien and Dennis Leary are cousins. I don't think I

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Speaker 1: knew that. According to Conan O'Brien asking a question on Jeopardy,

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Speaker 1: that is his cousin did not know that. Uh. Speaking

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Speaker 1: of Jeopardy, Uh, we have a colleague named Ken Jennings

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Speaker 1: who was on Jeopardy. And we have another colleague, two

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Speaker 1: colleagues called Daniel and Jorge, and they have a um

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Speaker 1: A podcast called Daniel and Jorge Explained the Universe. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty cool. But they also, Chuck, I just saw have

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Speaker 1: a PBS Kids animated program coming out September seven called

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Speaker 1: Eleanor Wonders Why and it looks adorable. Wow. That sounds

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Speaker 1: like right at my daughter, Alley. Yeah, so check it

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Speaker 1: out everybody. PBS Kids September seven, Eleanor Wonders Why And

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Speaker 1: congrats Daniel and Jorgey. Do you have any famous cousins,

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Speaker 1: famous or infamous? I think we are the famous cousins.

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Speaker 1: That's that's how sad our families are. Yeah, it feels

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Speaker 1: pretty great, though. I keep being like, hey, let's have

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Speaker 1: another family reunion this month. Speaking of infamous cousins, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: how about those Anglan brothers. Huh? Yeah, man, this is uh.

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Speaker 1: I could have thought I kind of thought, we did this,

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Speaker 1: I know we do, we do one on Alcatraz, and

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Speaker 1: maybe it just briefly touched on it. Absolutely because this

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Speaker 1: is uh, this movie, the nineteen what was it seventy

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Speaker 1: nine Escape from Alcatraz movie with Clint Eastwood was one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite movies as a kid. It's a good movie.

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Speaker 1: I went. I watched it just the other night as

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Speaker 1: part of this. Yeah, it was an HBO special, so

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Speaker 1: I must have been. I didn't see it in when

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Speaker 1: I was eight, and probably was like ten or eleven,

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Speaker 1: and it was one of those movies I probably watched

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Speaker 1: over a dozen times when I was twelve twelve years old,

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Speaker 1: followed by Krull and Outline. Oh man, those are great.

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Speaker 1: They always went together, though, didn't they? Yeah, in war games.

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Speaker 1: I mean that those are all HBO specials. But this

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Speaker 1: is a really good movie. And I'm a big, big

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Speaker 1: fan of prison escape movies. And I was thinking today

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Speaker 1: when I was looking over this stuff again that it's

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Speaker 1: so weird that like, these guys are hard and criminals,

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Speaker 1: and yet when you're researching this, all you can think

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Speaker 1: about is, oh man, I hope they got out of there,

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Speaker 1: and I hope they lived the fat life in Brazil.

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Speaker 1: Well that really speaks to like who they are, what

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Speaker 1: they became because of this escape, which is put most

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Speaker 1: simply their folk heroes, I guess. So, Yeah, that's definitely

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Speaker 1: a part of being a folk hero is that you

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Speaker 1: can transcend the kind of like judgments that society typically

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Speaker 1: levies against people like criminals. Like if you if you

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Speaker 1: are so good at your craft, are so good at

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Speaker 1: something to do with criminality that, um, you transcend being

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Speaker 1: judged for your crimes. That's you've become a folk hero

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Speaker 1: for sure. It's like dB Cooper. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: it helps that. Uh you know, these guys were armed

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Speaker 1: robbers and thieves and I think Frank Morris and we'll

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Speaker 1: get into all these who these dudes are, but he

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Speaker 1: was a drug trafficker. But they weren't rapist and murderers

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Speaker 1: that I don't think you can transcend that, know, they

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Speaker 1: they were definitely non violent criminals from everything that I've seen.

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Speaker 1: They used to toy gun in one of these robberies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's adorable. Well, let's talk about these guys like you

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Speaker 1: were saying, Um, we're talking about a group of people

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Speaker 1: who escaped from Alcatraz, and as far as anyone knows,

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Speaker 1: they are the only ones who really may have escaped

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Speaker 1: from Alcatraz. They vanished in nineteen sixty two, um, last

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Speaker 1: seen leaving their cells and were never heard from again.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, they were all hardened criminals, like

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Speaker 1: lifelong rear criminals. Frank Morris was thirty five when he

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Speaker 1: left Alcatraz, and he had been a criminal since he

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Speaker 1: was thirteen. Um, he was in and out of institutions,

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Speaker 1: and like he said, he wasn't a violent criminal. He

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Speaker 1: wasn't a rapist or murder or anything like that. He

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Speaker 1: was he was he liked to to to sell the drugs.

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Speaker 1: He had, like his forehead tattooed or a star tattooed

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Speaker 1: on his forehead for a while, which he very sensibly

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Speaker 1: had removed later on. Um, is that what that means

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Speaker 1: but that he was a drug trafficker? No, I think

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Speaker 1: that means that he did a few too many drugs

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Speaker 1: one night. Oh he really did have a star. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought that was some like prison thing for like

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Speaker 1: the tear drop tattoo means you doesn't that mean you

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Speaker 1: killed somebody or something. That's what I've always heard. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It could just be or been legend,

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Speaker 1: but yes, what I've always heard he really did have

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Speaker 1: a star. Okay, yeah, I think he got super wasted,

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Speaker 1: had a star tattooed on his forehead. There was a

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Speaker 1: tattoo or just far too handy that yeah, yeah, which

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Speaker 1: I think the old saying don't ever make friends with

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Speaker 1: tattoo artists or at least drinking buddies. Sure, that's true.

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Speaker 1: But he was also super smart too. Yeah, And they

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Speaker 1: point this out in the movie, um and a lot

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Speaker 1: of the movie. I mean, it's pretty close to the

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Speaker 1: real story that they did a really good job, but

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Speaker 1: they do make a big deal in the movie about

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Speaker 1: how smart he was. I know i Q is sort

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Speaker 1: of taking or leave it as far as uh that

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Speaker 1: being a real measurement of one's intelligence. But he supposedly

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Speaker 1: had an i Q of one thirty and the b

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Speaker 1: o P which stands for the was it Bureau of Prisons.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know they had rankings, but they had rankings

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Speaker 1: of uh intellectual intellectuality? Is that a word? Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think so it gets the point across ergo it is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious what other rankings they have. But Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, best looking, best abs. But he was in

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Speaker 1: the top two percent supposedly in the American prison system

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Speaker 1: as far as his intellectual capabilities. Yeah, so you you

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Speaker 1: hit on a point there. I think we need to

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Speaker 1: at least at least bring up like the the movie

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Speaker 1: did follow the actual the truth of the matter fairly

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Speaker 1: closely in some cases. In other cases it veered wildly away,

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Speaker 1: Like there was a character based on one guy who

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Speaker 1: was very much involved, but they didn't even use his name,

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Speaker 1: and they made him seem less involved than he actually was. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot that the movie gets wrong. But the

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Speaker 1: problem with covering this is that there's so many gaps

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Speaker 1: and holes that are so easily and casually filled in

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Speaker 1: that you can't help but wonder, like, wait, was this

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Speaker 1: was this detail provided by somebody who saw the movie

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Speaker 1: and took the movie as fact, Like where are we exactly?

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Speaker 1: And just how pure the knowledge and understanding is of

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Speaker 1: this escape. So you have to just kind of bear

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Speaker 1: that in mind that it's a it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: blur in the annals of crime as far as um

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Speaker 1: factuality goes. Yeah, but it's a good story, great story,

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Speaker 1: and most of this is pretty true. I think so.

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Speaker 1: Frank Morris was four years into a fourteen year stint

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Speaker 1: and this was for a bank robbery and he was

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Speaker 1: transferred to the rock in nine sixty. It's Alcatraz. It's

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Speaker 1: a prison island or an island prison, and so I

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Speaker 1: might say the island itself is a prison, which we'll

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Speaker 1: get to. And then his buddies you mentioned the England

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Speaker 1: brothers J W. John William and his younger brother Clarence.

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Speaker 1: We're thirty and twenty nine years old, and they were

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Speaker 1: from a very big family of migrant farm workers in

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Speaker 1: South Georgia. They traveled all over the country where wherever

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Speaker 1: the work was, basically as a big family, and they

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Speaker 1: got into stealing things from people. Yeah, and they were

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Speaker 1: the ones who used the toy gun. Later on, they

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Speaker 1: were I think visiting family in a small town called Columbia, Alabama,

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Speaker 1: which is in the southeast of the state, and they

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Speaker 1: found out that this bank had been around for a

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Speaker 1: hundred years in this town. It had never been robbed.

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Speaker 1: So they assumed, we're going to change that. It'll be

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Speaker 1: easy to knock over. And apparently it was pretty easy

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Speaker 1: to knock over. And they had a toy gun that

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Speaker 1: they used, and they still managed to get away with

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Speaker 1: at least I think like ten grand or twenty grand something,

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Speaker 1: a pretty substantial amount of money. And they were on

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Speaker 1: the run for a little while but got caught in

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Speaker 1: the Alabama AND's were not very happy with it, and

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Speaker 1: they threw the book at these brothers. They got twenty

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Speaker 1: five years sentences for robbing a bank with a toy gun,

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Speaker 1: and that actually was way better than the sentence they

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Speaker 1: initially faced, which was the potentially the death panel. That's yeah,

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Speaker 1: so so they were they were. They were caught and busted.

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Speaker 1: And they had a third brother named Alfred too, who

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Speaker 1: was also involved, but he was never sent to that

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Speaker 1: to the rock as you put it, I bet it

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Speaker 1: was not a bet. It was actually a lot easier

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Speaker 1: to rob banks back then. Yeah, it was way easier

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Speaker 1: to be a criminal, even just a few decades ago. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just in general, I think now it's like I don't

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Speaker 1: even try, No, you got I mean, if it's not

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Speaker 1: the cops and their cameras, he got some dumb neighbor

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Speaker 1: with their cameras like me right, Oh man, I hate

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Speaker 1: to get off topics so quickly, and we should post

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Speaker 1: this on the Facebook page or something, or maybe I'll

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Speaker 1: put it on Instagram. What I got attacked by a

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Speaker 1: squirrel and it was captured by my front of the

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Speaker 1: house camera. Oh yeah, everyone wants to see that. This

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Speaker 1: is great. I just I was taking out some recycling

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Speaker 1: and I heard some rustling, and I went around the

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Speaker 1: corner and I was like, this squirrel was freaking out,

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Speaker 1: and then he literally leapt if you freeze fram it,

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Speaker 1: he leapt three feet in the air and hit my

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Speaker 1: leg and ran up my leg a little bit. And

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Speaker 1: then wow, and I react thustily. That's awesome. You know,

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Speaker 1: would be wonderful as to intercut close ups of your

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Speaker 1: face when you got that Charlie Horse on internet round up.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, in this squirrel attack, it's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't care about myself and looking dumb. Why did you?

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Speaker 1: Why did that squirrel attack you? What did you do

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Speaker 1: to it? I didn't do anything. It was freaking out.

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Speaker 1: And then I turned and looked after I dropped the

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Speaker 1: recycling off, and he and another squirrel we're going at

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Speaker 1: it in our oak tree. So I think he was

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Speaker 1: just he was all riled up. He might have been Yeah,

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Speaker 1: did he have a star tattooed on his forehead, did

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Speaker 1: right on his little tenty free forehead. Yes, please do

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Speaker 1: post that. Okay, So all right, these guys are all

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Speaker 1: in Alcatraz. And Alcatraz at the time was um. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, it was sort of the rock itself was

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Speaker 1: the prison. And that was the idea was that even

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Speaker 1: if you're even if you managed to get out of

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Speaker 1: the prison that they eventually built, which we'll talk about,

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Speaker 1: then you still can't get out of there because you

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Speaker 1: gotta swim over a mile to the nearest body of land,

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Speaker 1: about one point three miles. That water is really cold,

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Speaker 1: the currents are brutal, the winds are really strong. San

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Speaker 1: Francisco Bay is not you know, for people that haven't

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Speaker 1: been there, it's not just some lovely little chill body

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Speaker 1: of water that you hang out in. No, it's not

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Speaker 1: a very hospitable body of water. It's not so um.

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Speaker 1: The the idea was that, yeah, like when you got

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Speaker 1: sent to Alcatraz, you weren't getting off of that island

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Speaker 1: and you were either paroled or died. Um. And that

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Speaker 1: was actually the reason that the England's and Frank Morris

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Speaker 1: were sent there was because they had all met at

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Speaker 1: the Federal pen and at Atlanta, I guess the wind

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Speaker 1: down in Grant Park, right, Yeah, which that building is amazing.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the most forbidding buildings in the world.

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Speaker 1: I would say it looks like an old timey federal penitentiary.

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Speaker 1: Al Capone was there too for a little while. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I actually drove by there not too long ago with

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Speaker 1: my daughter for the first time, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: check out that building. Look at that. It's like, that's

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Speaker 1: a prison to what's a prison? And I went, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess I got to explain that. I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: when you're eighteen if you make it and don't go

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Speaker 1: to prison first. Right. So they all met at the

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Speaker 1: Federal pen and Atlanta, and I can't remember if they

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Speaker 1: actually made it out or if they were called escaping,

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Speaker 1: but they were known escape artists like the um Frank

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Speaker 1: Morris that escaped from places in Florida. Um. They didn't

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Speaker 1: stay put when you when you put them in prison,

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Speaker 1: and so that's why they were all sent to Alcatraz

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Speaker 1: and just crazily as they arrived between nineteen sixty and

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one, they were all put pretty close together,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, the Angland brothers had adjoining cells, which

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Speaker 1: is a very stupid thing to do, but that's what

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Speaker 1: they did in part, I believe because there is a

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Speaker 1: certain thread of arrogance that ran through the administration of

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Speaker 1: um Alcatraz that it was just basically inescapable. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I think you also sort of want happy prisoners, and

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Speaker 1: I've heard of request like that being made possible before,

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Speaker 1: like hope you put me near my brother, We're gonna

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Speaker 1: be a lot better behaved. Yeah, we're definitely not going

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Speaker 1: to to break out. Um. I don't think we mentioned either,

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Speaker 1: Like Alcatraz was so formidable as a just an island

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Speaker 1: that the very first time they used it was when

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Speaker 1: the Army put soldiers there who who cheered on President

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Speaker 1: Lincoln's death, And so they didn't even bother building a

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Speaker 1: prison though. They just built some barracks through them on

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Speaker 1: the island. It's like, well, you're in prison now, because

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Speaker 1: good luck getting out of here. Yeah, that's what I

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Speaker 1: saw too, um. And when the Bureau of Prisons took over,

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Speaker 1: they they really fortified it even more. Like you said,

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Speaker 1: there was a larger building that housed everything from like

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Speaker 1: the mess hall to the cell blocks. So when you

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Speaker 1: were in a cell in a cell block. You were

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Speaker 1: in you were in a little tiny prison inside a

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Speaker 1: larger prison, inside this island prison. UM. And the cell

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Speaker 1: blocks themselves had like three inch thick concrete walls, reinforced

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Speaker 1: iron bars. The building itself was made a very thick concrete.

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Speaker 1: It was it was just meant to to to basically

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Speaker 1: tell you there's there's no getting out here. But UM,

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Speaker 1: what's what's crazy is UM Frank Morris and the England Brothers.

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Speaker 1: They weren't the first people to ever try to bust

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Speaker 1: out UM. I believe they were part of a total

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Speaker 1: of thirty six people who tried to escape in the

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Speaker 1: history of the prison. UM. Everybody else, almost everybody else

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Speaker 1: was either UM killed, UH captured, or their bodies were

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Speaker 1: found except and I did not realize this, UM Morris

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Speaker 1: and the England Brothers were not the first people to

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Speaker 1: vanish without a trace from Alcatraz. Had you heard about UM,

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Speaker 1: Ted Cole and Ralph Roe. I hadn't heard about them

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Speaker 1: until this, But in the thirties, late thirties, they did escape,

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Speaker 1: and they did vanish, and you know, sort of like

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Speaker 1: where this story is going there, I don't think anyone

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Speaker 1: wants to admit that from the prison system that they

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Speaker 1: could have really made it. So they're like, nah, they die,

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Speaker 1: they drowned. But the thing is, the thing that really

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Speaker 1: differentiates um, the England Brothers and Frank Morris from guys

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Speaker 1: like Ted Cole and Ralph Roe. They all shared in

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Speaker 1: common that they escaped from Alcatraz and vanished without a trace.

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Speaker 1: The thing that differentiates Morris in the Englands is that

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Speaker 1: they're folk heroes because almost exclusively because of this plan

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Speaker 1: they devised and executed, and that the plan was so

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Speaker 1: good and so complex and well done that it actually

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Speaker 1: lends credence to the idea that they may have survived

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Speaker 1: and escaped from Alcatraz genuinely. And what they had in

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Speaker 1: common is that they were all top ten in best

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Speaker 1: abs in the prison system. And what everybody listening right

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Speaker 1: now has in common is that you're about to hear

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Speaker 1: an ad to Okay, we're back everybody, UM, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's high time we we talked about the plan,

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Speaker 1: the escape plan, don't you. Yeah, if you're gonna escape

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Speaker 1: from Alcatraz, Um, it's not the kind of thing where

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Speaker 1: you distract a guard and just run and jump over

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Speaker 1: a fence. You gotta start this thing. Uh, this plan

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Speaker 1: many months in advance, and by all accounts they and

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Speaker 1: by all accounts meaning from the one account that we

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Speaker 1: really have this, they started planning easily six months before

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Speaker 1: the escape. They start developing this plan. They start collecting

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Speaker 1: kind of anything they can get their hands on that

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Speaker 1: they think they can use. Um everything from just loose

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Speaker 1: nuts and bolts and screws to um things that I mean,

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Speaker 1: they actually ended up using a lot of this stuff,

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Speaker 1: but I got the impression that they were just kind

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Speaker 1: of like any time they saw something that they could

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Speaker 1: squirrel away and hide, they would do it because you

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Speaker 1: never know what you could use it for. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so like over the six month period, they amassed something

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Speaker 1: like a d tools that they either stole, had stolen

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Speaker 1: for them rebuild, or repurposed out of other stuff, or

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Speaker 1: just made completely out of like their own labor. Like,

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Speaker 1: they had a pretty extensive toolkit that they created. UM.

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Speaker 1: One of the ways that they got a lot of

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Speaker 1: the tools was from Alan West, who we haven't mentioned yet,

347
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Speaker 1: but a lot of people don't realize there was a

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Speaker 1: fourth conspirator in the Alcatraz escape UM who was a

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Speaker 1: major integral part of it. But who actually didn't go

350
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Speaker 1: along with the escape As we'll see that part of

351
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Speaker 1: the movie is so tough. It is, especially with that

352
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Speaker 1: poor guy. He he just looks came out of the

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Speaker 1: womb like down on my luck? Can you spare a dime's?

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Speaker 1: But he was, um, I think he was the guy

355
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Speaker 1: who played Kramer on Seinfeld in the in the pilot,

356
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Speaker 1: in the NBC pilot. Yeah, so like in the show

357
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Speaker 1: the I playing Framer on the show. In the show,

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Speaker 1: I think that was him that he stole the eminem's

359
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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, so he was an escape from Alcatraz

360
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Speaker 1: to Yeah, he just he's perfect for that part. But

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Speaker 1: this guy named Alan West, he he was on the

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Speaker 1: painting crew and he put that to use big time.

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Speaker 1: One of the first ways he did it was he

364
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Speaker 1: was in the prison barber shop and managed to steal

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Speaker 1: a pair of electric clippers while he was in their

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Speaker 1: painting and they were like, hey, this motor will come

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Speaker 1: in handy. Well, let's repurpose it into a power drill,

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Speaker 1: and they did, Yeah, that's pretty cool. He also, uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean just having a little motor so handy. So

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Speaker 1: he came across a vacuum cleaner that wasn't working, and

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Speaker 1: he said, hey, do you mind if I repair this? Uh,

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Speaker 1: I gotta shake the tree first, but after that, you

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Speaker 1: mind if I repair this? And that what they call

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Speaker 1: it the vacuuming. No, and he got a pee on

375
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Speaker 1: the on the chain gang that you call it shaking

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Speaker 1: the tree. Oh, I guess I think that's what it's called. Sure,

377
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Speaker 1: But I mean it wasn't have to do with fixing

378
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Speaker 1: a vacuum nothing. It's just prison humor. Oh. I got

379
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Speaker 1: to me a lot of prison jokes. So all the

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Speaker 1: inmates listening right now is busted out laughing. Like he said,

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Speaker 1: shake the tree. Well, it's a drinking game. How we'll explain.

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Speaker 1: If you're listening from prison, if someone says shake the tree,

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Speaker 1: you take a drink of pruno. Well that's another drink. Yeah,

384
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Speaker 1: that's the but that's what you would drink when somebody said,

385
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Speaker 1: shake the tree, the tree one more time, Shake the tree, guys.

386
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Speaker 1: I think everybody's got a pretty good buzzing prison right now.

387
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Speaker 1: So he says, let me fix this vacuum cleaner. They say,

388
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Speaker 1: that's fine. He saw that the vacuum cleaner had a

389
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Speaker 1: couple of different motors, and one of which he used

390
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Speaker 1: to repair and actually make, you know, pass it off

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Speaker 1: as a working vacuum cleaner. And then he just took

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Speaker 1: that other one, and that meant that they could make

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Speaker 1: a drill that was even more powerful than the other one. Yeah. Um,

394
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Speaker 1: so they had not one, but two electric drills um

395
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Speaker 1: at their disposal, which kind of gives you a pretty

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Speaker 1: good idea of just how dedicated and smart and crafty

397
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Speaker 1: these guys were, right Yes, um. They also very famously

398
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Speaker 1: ended up with fifty five zero different raincoats that were

399
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Speaker 1: made from rubber prison issue raincoats, so they got from

400
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Speaker 1: other inmates. And this really reveals something that I think

401
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't necessarily realize. It seems like

402
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Speaker 1: basically all the inmates in prison with England and the

403
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Speaker 1: England's and Morris were well aware of their plans, not

404
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Speaker 1: necessarily every detail or even any of the details, just

405
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Speaker 1: that they were planning on breaking out, and so they

406
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Speaker 1: managed to get their hands on like fifty different raincoats

407
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Speaker 1: from other prisoners that they used to to build um

408
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Speaker 1: a life raft and life vests with pretty great I

409
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Speaker 1: think the idea was is that these guys didn't like

410
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Speaker 1: being on Alcatraz. So they kind of figured, Hey, if

411
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Speaker 1: these guys actually get out, they're going to close this

412
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Speaker 1: place down. We're going to get out of here. You know.

413
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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know if I would have gone

414
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Speaker 1: along with that rationale, I would have thought, it's going

415
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Speaker 1: to be even worse for us here. But we'll we'll

416
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Speaker 1: hang on to what happened until the end of the show.

417
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Speaker 1: How about that. I think everybody would have kept their

418
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Speaker 1: pruno from you had you raised that point. You know.

419
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Speaker 1: So they've got all this stuff. They got paint, they

420
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Speaker 1: got paper, they collect hair and uh from the from

421
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Speaker 1: the barbershop. They like sweep up this hair and keep that.

422
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Speaker 1: You might be thinking, why in the world would they

423
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Speaker 1: need that. We'll just wait, you'll see. And then they

424
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Speaker 1: had about three and a half hours each evening after dinner,

425
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Speaker 1: slop and before lights out where they had to work,

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Speaker 1: um and create, you know, a way out of their

427
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 1: prison cell. And then once they get out of their

428
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: prison cell, like you said, they're still in this larger building,

429
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: then a way out of there. But the first trick

430
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: is getting out of their individual cells. Yeah. Well, so

431
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: from what I understand, that took up like the lion's

432
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,919
Speaker 1: share of the time between when they first hatched this

433
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 1: plan in the time when they finally escaped. Um, they

434
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 1: were like these little six by eight or nine or something,

435
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: very small ventilation chef cemented into the wall. Um. These

436
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: the grates were cemented into the wall, but really it

437
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: was just a little metal grade over a hole. So

438
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: they figured it they could start chipping away at that

439
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: hole and enlarge the hole into something they could crawl through.

440
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: And that's exactly what they did. UM. Eventually, over time,

441
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: Frank Morris and then both of the England brothers managed

442
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: to create these holes. UM. And they did so by

443
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 1: by serving his lookout for one another while the other

444
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: one chipped one night, and then they would trade off

445
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And then here's the question that

446
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 1: I have. I could not confirm one way or the

447
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: other if it was a movie thing or if it

448
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: was a real life thing. But in the movie they create,

449
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: um these kind of cardboard false walls that they're able

450
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: to fill the hole with that it looks like the

451
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: great is still there and the wall is still intact. UM.

452
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: So when they were out of their cells, they could

453
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: put this false wall in behind them and um, nobody

454
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: would be any the wiser when they just walked past

455
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: and casually glanced in there. I don't know if they

456
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: did that or not. I mean, it's a pretty great

457
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: detail of the movie, so I'm inclined to believe it.

458
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: Let's go with it. What I didn't see in or

459
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: I don't I haven't seen it in a long time.

460
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: Did they have those drills in the movie, because I

461
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: just remember a lot of digging with them. They kind

462
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: of just like used a sharpened spoon as a little

463
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: mini pick a sharpened spoon, uh, with a the warden's

464
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: fingernail clippers that he steals in like one of the

465
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: first scenes. But there was no drill in the movie,

466
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: was there? Not that I remember? So there definitely were

467
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: two drills. One of the one of the drills, that

468
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: one with the vacuum motor. They actually figured out it's

469
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: just too loud, it's too powerful um and too loud

470
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: that so they abandoned that one. But I don't know

471
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: what became of the um hair clipper drill. I didn't

472
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 1: hear anything about that one other than that they created

473
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: it and used it well. They managed to dig through

474
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 1: though where they could get their bodies out of the

475
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: cell uh, and that just must have felt like, you know,

476
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: we're we're halfway there, point guys. So they um from

477
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: there it led to a utility cord or it was

478
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: about a meter wide, and there were no guards in

479
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: here because this is sort of like the guts of

480
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: the prison, like why would you need to guard where

481
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 1: there are no people wink wink uh And in that

482
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: quarter or they could kind of move around freely. They

483
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 1: would climb up to the ceiling. This is like a

484
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: three story cell block still within a larger building though

485
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: of course, like we mentioned, and then they had a

486
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: full on workshop up there for a few weeks. They

487
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: could store their tools, they could hide their stuff, they

488
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: could build uh. We haven't really talked about the rafts,

489
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: but where they were much they would build their rafts

490
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: there and it just sort of sort of serves as

491
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: their staging area where they would eventually leave from to

492
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: go buy this big heavy iron grate to a ventilation chaft,

493
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: which actually finally led to the rooftop. Right. But that

494
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: big iron gray was a big iron problem because the

495
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: bars were reinforced. There was they were um I think

496
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: welded or maybe screwed I'm not sure into this um

497
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: iron ring that covered this ventilation shaft. So it was

498
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: a big problem. And then they figured out that the

499
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: bolts holding this whole thing together were actually not nearly

500
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: as strong as the bars that made up the great

501
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: and the ring that held the bars. So they started

502
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: working away at cutting these bolts. One way or another,

503
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: I think they created a wrench. They built themselves a wrench,

504
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: and they managed to use that to some pretty good effect.

505
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: But it went from digging out of their cells to

506
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: figuring out a way to get through this great um.

507
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: That was kind of like stage two um. And then

508
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: let's talk about the raft, because the raft is extremely

509
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: important part of this whole thing, and I think really

510
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: one of the things, if not the thing, that that

511
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: lends credence to the idea that they might have actually

512
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: made it. Yeah, so they got these raincoats, and back

513
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: then raincoats were just basically sheets of rubber. Yeah, they

514
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: didn't breathe very well, very hot things like Gordon's Fisherman

515
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: type of stuff. A sweaty Gordon's Fisherman. Oh yeah, that

516
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: guy was always sweaty. So they ended up creating a

517
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: six ft by fourteen foot life raft from these raincoats

518
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: from UH an article in Popular Mechanics which shows up

519
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: a couple of times, very useful magazine if you were

520
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: trying to escape prison. And it was an article about

521
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: a hunter who had gotten lost and survived hunting geese

522
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: that he attracted using rubber decoys that he'd made. So

523
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: they get this idea. They build these inflatable pontoons made

524
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: from these raincoat sleeves, so they were stuffed inside and

525
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: made air tight by gluing rubber cement contact cement over

526
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: the seams and then pressing them against steel pipes which

527
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: vulcanized that it just basically melted everything shut. And then

528
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: you have these floatable pontoons that you could use and

529
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: craft this larger raft. Yeah. So they had something that

530
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: was inflatable that because those seams were vulcanized, it would

531
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: hold the air. The air couldn't escape. Um. And they

532
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: used a concertina. Um oh, I can't remember, Handsome Pete.

533
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: There's like a little a little guy who plays the

534
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: accordion down on the docks that looks just like Krusty

535
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: the clown in one of the Simpsons episodes, and he's

536
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: playing a concertina it's like a squeeze box. It's like

537
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: an accordion without the keys in the buttons. Yeah, but

538
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: it acts as a bellows because it moves air. Essentially,

539
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: that's what they used it for. They modified it so

540
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: that they could use it to inflate their raft very

541
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: quickly with this concertina that I guess they stole from

542
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: the prison music room, which is pretty great. So they're

543
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: working on all this stuff and the raft in particular,

544
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: this this is like the the lynchpin of this whole

545
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: plan is this raft in these life preservers. That work

546
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: fell to Alan West. So while these dudes were chipped,

547
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: we're like chipping away at the ventilation holes. Um. Alan

548
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: West was standing lookout for most of them, and he

549
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: was creating this raft in these life fests, and so

550
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to chip away at his ventilation hole

551
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: nearly as fast. So while they were out, you know,

552
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: working on the great event cover great, he still had

553
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: no way out of his cell. At that point. He

554
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: hadn't made it all the way through. Yeah, And you know,

555
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: we should point out something that earlier we mentioned. If

556
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: if they happened to walk by and they don't notice

557
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: a hole in the wall, because they may or may

558
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: not have made these false uh grates and walls. If

559
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: you're a listener and you don't know the story, you

560
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: might have said, like, yeah, but wouldn't they have noticed

561
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: there was no one in the cell? Good question. What

562
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: they did was they made paper mache recreations of themselves.

563
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: They made these busts. They use that prison hair so

564
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: cross and use that reversement again to glue this hair on.

565
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: And if you see the real things, it's not Madam

566
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: Tussu or anything. It's not like, boy, look at that

567
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: likeness photo realistic, but it's in the dark and you're

568
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: sort of, I think, as a human trained to see

569
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: what you're looking for. So if your guard that's just

570
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: walking by, you see a head turned the other way

571
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: with with prison hair on it and some pillows under

572
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: a blanket, and you you don't think it looks fake.

573
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: It just looks like it wouldn't like Ferris Bueller style

574
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: with um like a fake snore on the Hi fi

575
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: system or anything, right, But you just kind of walked

576
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 1: past it. It worked well enough, Like they did this

577
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: for weeks and weeks and weeks with these paper mache busts,

578
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: and it worked they never got noticed. No they didn't

579
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: because I mean remember like that that they were working

580
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: between the end of dinner and lights out, So they

581
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: just seemed to have made it like like they went

582
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: to bed early, um and put the paper mache busts

583
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: in there. Sure are sleepy. Yeah, there too much for you.

584
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: Frank got a lot. I got a lot of questions

585
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: about this, but I'm not gonna investigate any exactly. So

586
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about the escape and then

587
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: go to a break? Yeah, I think that's the way

588
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: to do it. Okay. So finally they get to this

589
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: point where great is the bars are removed from this

590
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: great enough that they can slip through, and they realize

591
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: that they have, um, they have successfully penetrated to the

592
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: exterior of the building. That's right, okay, on the roof. Well,

593
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: they know they can get on the roof. Now they

594
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: know there's go night there at least once to be

595
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: like all right, I don't know, I haven't heard anything

596
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: like that. And there's a lot of questions about why

597
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: this particular night. Was this the very first night that

598
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: they were able to get out and there like let's

599
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: go um, which seems likely to me, or were they

600
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: waiting for a particular night, or like you said, they

601
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: tested it before they do any dry runs. We don't

602
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: really know that, um, But what we do know is

603
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: that on Monday, June eleven, UM, J. W. Angling, Clarence

604
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: Angling and Frank Moore's all left their cells and the

605
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: first thing Frank Morris did was go to help Alan

606
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: West finished um puncturing the hole through his cell wall.

607
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: Course all had not done this yet. He's like, come on,

608
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: we gotta go. But apparently part of the plan was

609
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: to help him um punch the hole out the rest

610
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: of the way and then he would escape with them. Um.

611
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: Frank Morris apparently tried in vain and uh went off

612
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: to get Clarence England to to come try, and they

613
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: traded off, and then Clarence tried. He couldn't do it either,

614
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: So I guess he had the very um, uh uncomfortable

615
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: I'll be right back. I gotta go, I gotta go

616
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: shake the tree or something like that. I'll be right back.

617
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: You stay here. And that was the last anybody ever

618
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: saw of Frank Morris, Clarence England or J. W. England

619
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: from from that moment until today. Yeah, so they get

620
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: to that corridor, they climb up to um the roof

621
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: of the cell block, and then through that ventilation shaft

622
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: that great is no longer a problem, and allan west

623
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: they can just barely hear him saying like, you guys

624
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: are coming back right any minute now, you said, Um,

625
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: so there's this rain cover on top. They pushed that

626
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: hang off and this this all makes some noise, and

627
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: and in the movie they they kind of accurately displayed

628
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: that to us, some clanking and clanging around. And I

629
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: don't think in the movie they did this, but in

630
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: real life, supposedly there was so much noise that they

631
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: did like a little forty five minute, um kind of

632
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: a search of the area. Didn't see anything going on. No,

633
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: they didn't go up on the roof, that's for sure,

634
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: and uh, they basically didn't find anything. So the guys

635
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: are out. They shimmy about fifty feet to the ground

636
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: via drain pipe, which is how you always do it,

637
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: go to that perimeter fence. And I'm sure the perimeter

638
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: fence was fine, but I think the idea was that

639
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: they're never getting out anyway. So I don't think it

640
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: had like fifteen feet of razor wire or anything. Like that.

641
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: I think it did have double barbed wire at least

642
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: for sure. That's nothing. It's not like concertina wire or anything. No,

643
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 1: nothing like that. Around one in the morning, Alan West,

644
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: Poor Alan West, he finally gets that cell great broken open.

645
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: I'm sure he just thinks, all right, I'm gonna catch

646
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: up to these guys and it's gonna be all good,

647
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: and I'm getting out of here. Followed that same route.

648
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: It's been a couple of hours. At this point, though,

649
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 1: he saw that these were genuinely good dudes, it seemed

650
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: like because they did leave him a paddle. I don't

651
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: think we mentioned they made paddles out of chair legs

652
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: and the screws and nuts and bolts and a pontoon

653
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: that was all inflated for him. And he got a

654
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: little snack, a little Bryce Crispy Treatrice Crispy treat, the

655
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 1: little Bruno, little shot of Pruno for his for his courage,

656
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: and then he looks over terrible timing, and there's a

657
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: guard in a new position that basically could see anything

658
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: that he tries to do. From that point forward, he's

659
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: visually pinned down on the root. If he can't do anything,

660
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: So this is around one am or something, and he figures, okay,

661
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: the guard will eventually move. Well, Alan West says, the

662
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: guard never moved for until dawn. That doesn't this guy

663
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: p right, doesn't he ever shake the tree? Um? And

664
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: he didn't. He did not shake the tree, stayed put.

665
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: And so eventually Alan West was forced to climb back

666
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: down the ventilation shift, back down from the roof of

667
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: the cell blocks three stories back to his cell that

668
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: he had just a few hours earlier. Finally, after months,

669
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: punched a hole through and he went and laid down

670
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: and just waited for the heat to come down on him.

671
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: And indeed it did because at the seven am bed check,

672
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: three dummy heads were discovered where three inmates real heads

673
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: should have been. Uh, and the prison just went berserk.

674
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: You know that feeling you get when you take a

675
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: wrong turn and go like three or four miles in

676
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: the wrong direction and have to go all the way

677
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: back the other way. Yeah, imagine being Alan West and

678
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: having to do that. That time's infinity, That time's infinity. Yeah,

679
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: you wanna take another break? I think? So? Man, all right,

680
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: we'll get to the well, we won't get to the

681
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: bottom of this, but we'll speculate all over the place

682
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: right after this. Kind Okay, so there are some things

683
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: that we know about this from watching the movie, but

684
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: the movie writers based the movie on a book, and

685
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: the book author a belief basis stuff on an interview

686
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: or interviews with Alan West that Alan West had with

687
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 1: the Bureau of Prisons in the FBI. Because basically everything

688
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: we know about the escape from Alcatraz came from the

689
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: mouth of Allen West. Yeah, so he made a deal.

690
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: He said, listen, I'll tell you all about it, but

691
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: you can't throw me in here for longer because I

692
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: tried to escape prison. You gotta give me immunity for

693
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: that attempted escape. And let's be honest, guys, it really

694
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: wasn't much of an attempt. Can you give me a

695
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: break here? Right? I had to make the sad walk

696
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: of shame back to l I have a feeling that

697
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: that definitely factored into their decision to give him immunity, Like, man, probably,

698
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: so you really you really got a hard luck case.

699
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: So he makes a deal and says, I'll tell you everything.

700
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: But again, this is just his account of it. Um.

701
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: One thing that kind of jumped out is maybe it's

702
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: not the most accurate account was that he was like, yeah,

703
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: I was the mastermind. I thought up the whole thing

704
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: from the start. And I don't know if that's quite true,

705
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: because it seems like Clint Eastwood did. Yeah. Certainly the

706
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: in the movie the movies, basically it should be called

707
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 1: colin the Frank Morris story. He's the main character. Everybody

708
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: else is a side character. It really kind of downplayed

709
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the contributions by the England brothers, certainly

710
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: by Alan Wait doesn't even use Alan West's name. Um,

711
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: So I don't know how much of an influence is

712
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: from that movie or if that movie was just based

713
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: on the general idea that Frank Morris was, um the

714
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: mastermind and the leader, that he was a very intelligent

715
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: person and kind of a born leader from what I know.

716
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: So it's just not clear whether Alan West actually came

717
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: up with this plan or not. Was he the one

718
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 1: who sewed the raft all this time and he got

719
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: left behind, or maybe he had really weak arms and

720
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: this was just what he told the the Bureau of

721
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: Prisons investigators. It was the reason why he never was

722
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: able to chip out of the his cell. Who knows,

723
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: but just so, just bear in mind from this point forward,

724
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: just going to go on with the with this is gospel.

725
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: But all of this is coming from Alan Westmouth. He

726
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: was the one that was left behind. I feel like

727
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: in the movie he got to the point where he

728
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: could not jump up by himself and reach the great

729
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: Is that right? Uh? Yeah, So in the movie they

730
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: help each other up and then um, he would he

731
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: would have had to have done it himself, and he

732
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: couldn't jump. He just kept jumping and jumping and couldn't

733
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: make it. Yes, but from what I know, he made

734
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: it up to the roof and was pinned down on

735
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: the roof by that that guard in the watch to guard. No,

736
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, you're right. In the movie it was

737
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: like that. So. Uh. The plan was, and this is

738
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 1: again from west account said, was to sail this raft

739
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: or I guess paddle this raft across the bay to

740
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: Angel Islands about a mile away a little over. And

741
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: he said from there they were going to rest for

742
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: a little bit, get their bearings, stash everything, and then

743
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: swim to the mainland across what's called the Raccoon Straights

744
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: to Marin County, and then once they got there they

745
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: would start doing crime again. Immediately. They could rob a

746
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: store for clothsing money, and steal a car and get

747
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: the heck out of there as quickly as possible before

748
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: the word gets out. Ostensibly, which is a pretty great

749
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: plan actually, except for the crime part. Like I would have,

750
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess the idea is just get

751
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: as far away as possible. But I don't know if

752
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: I would have. Yeah, but you need to call are.

753
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: It's not like somebody's gonna just give you one. I

754
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: can take a bart. Sure you could take the bart.

755
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: I guess I think it was a pretty good Maybe

756
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: they're just like one last heist to get away from here.

757
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what it was. Maybe because they just want

758
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I get that want the urge to get

759
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: as far away from there as possible. But also what

760
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: if all of a sudden cops are on you from

761
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: stealing a car immediately. I guess it gets a risk.

762
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: It is a big risk, and a lot of people

763
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: say that. Um, they were actually helped. On the other side,

764
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: there was a guy named um oh Man. I can't

765
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: remember his last name, but his his first name or

766
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: his nickname was Bumpy. He was a Harlem crime lord,

767
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: drug lord Um who was just a total b a

768
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: um and they think that he may have had something

769
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: to do with helping them escape with somebody who would

770
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: have shown up and pick them up and driven them off.

771
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: Other people say that one of the England's girlfriends was there,

772
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: but the FBI supposedly investigate it did and said Frank

773
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: Morris didn't have anybody. He was an orphan, He didn't

774
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: have anybody on the outside. He could have helped. The

775
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: England's had family that definitely would have helped if they could,

776
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: but they didn't have the means to actually to help

777
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: them out in San Francisco. So yeah, but they were

778
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: a tight family, and they were the kind of family

779
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: where I think if one of them had called him

780
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: been like I'm breaking out, I need you to pick

781
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: me up, they would have done it. That They're like that,

782
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: that that kind of tight family bond, not like my

783
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: family would be like, oh, well, I'll call you right

784
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: back and then hello, FBI. How much of a reward

785
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: do you have for giving up a prison Escapeee? Yes,

786
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: a federal prison all that much? Hunk? Great? Do you

787
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: have a pen? Can you do any better? So, yeah,

788
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: that's exactly what my family would follow up with uh,

789
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: they did find some evidence. So um, they did a

790
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: search for about a week and a half. Um, along

791
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: with the FBI, like you were saying, in the bureau

792
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: prisons and the Alcatraz people, they were all supermad, of course,

793
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: especially in the movie version. And they searched Angel Island,

794
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: They searched all the other islands in the bay, and

795
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: they did find one of those life preservers that had

796
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: teeth marks on the inflation valve. They found a wallet

797
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: wrapped in plastic that they figured was JW Anglands. They

798
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,479
Speaker 1: found one of those oars and they found it looked

799
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: like most of one of the rafts or most of

800
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: the raft But no bodies, no stolen cars, no burglaries. Um.

801
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: No one had reported anything in the area unusual to

802
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: to according to their plan, which was you know, steal

803
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: closing money in a car. Yeah. And so the beer

804
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: of prisons, like right out of the gate was like

805
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: they drowned there. They were washed out to see that's it.

806
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: We'll never hear from them again. But they're dead. They

807
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: didn't actually escape. Um. And that this was in nineteen

808
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: sixty two. It wasn't until nineteen nine of the FBI

809
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: closed the book and said, yeah, that's probably what happened.

810
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: We we presumed that they were dead and their bodies

811
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: lost at sea. Um. But when they were building this case, uh,

812
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: they cited the story of a guy named Seymour Webb

813
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: who had jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge and virtually

814
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: the same time the England's and Morris would have been

815
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: in San Francisco Bay and his body was never found,

816
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: despite their being witnesses who watched him jumps. Very flimsy yeah, um, yes,

817
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: but at the same time, it does kind of demonstrate like, look,

818
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: maybe this guy was never Yeah, he was never found.

819
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: He jumped at the same time the England's and Morris

820
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: were in the water, so maybe their bodies were never found.

821
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: There was a sighting of a body about five weeks

822
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: later in July of nineteen sixty two UM by a

823
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: group of Norwegian sailors who saw something kind of floating

824
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: off and they're like, is that a body? They won't

825
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: got binoculars, and they said, that's a body. It was

826
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: a body. It was um floating upside down, so all

827
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 1: they could see was the butt basically kind of bobbing

828
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: in the water, and the butt looked through their binoculars

829
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 1: at least to have on jeans, have on denim, and

830
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 1: they you know, that was part of the prison outfit,

831
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: was they were wearing denim. And this, this is the

832
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: part that kind of gets a little flims into me,

833
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 1: is the FBI said that there were no missing persons

834
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: in the area in that time frame that we're wearing jeans, right,

835
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: are you ready for this? So sitting down, who knows?

836
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: And it was reported many weeks later, so you know,

837
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: it was all it was kind of hearsay, I guess

838
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: at that point it was. And then by the time

839
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: they actually reported the sighting, it was October. So they're like, well,

840
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: that's kind of useless. But they they do point to

841
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: that and say, okay, this combined with Seymour web, we

842
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: think that their bodies were swept out to see Not

843
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 1: everybody agrees with that, UM, including the Angland family, who

844
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 1: very much maintained that their brothers survived this escape from Alcatraz.

845
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: And actually UM had a photograph that I don't know

846
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 1: where they got it, but they they have a photograph

847
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: that was supposedly taken of their brothers in Brazil in

848
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: l Then it does it certainly doesn't there's actually a

849
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 1: company you I can't remember the name of the company,

850
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: but they do like um, artificial intelligence facial recognition. So

851
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: they're just really leading the way to a dystopia. But

852
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: they were like, hey, everybody, we want to introduce you

853
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: to our software. So we're gonna analyze this picture and

854
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: um there a I said, yeah, definitely the Anglands. How

855
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 1: cool is that? Yeah? I mean I certainly looked at it,

856
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: and it could be it didn't look so unlike them

857
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: that it was like no way. Um, and again I

858
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: found myself being like, yeah, man, I hope these guys

859
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: made it to Brazil and they're should Robin Banks there

860
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: to this exactly right? I have them raising cattle in Brazil.

861
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: That's my that's my idea. Uh. In two thousand thirteen,

862
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: there was a letter sent to the San Francisco Police Department, UH,

863
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: supposedly from J. W. England saying, Hey, we made it, guys,

864
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 1: but just barely. Morris died in two thousand eight. We

865
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 1: kept in touch, great guy. Um Clarence died in two

866
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 1: thousand eleven, and I'm still alive, but I got cancer.

867
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: I need help and I'm gonna come for if you.

868
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: If you promise in pinky swear until the public that

869
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: you're not gonna send me to jail for more than

870
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: one year and you're gonna heal my cancer. Yeah, and

871
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: apparently they analyzed the letter and like, this is inconclusive.

872
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: But the FBI was like, we close this case in

873
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, We're not about to open it up.

874
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. The the idea that they survived

875
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 1: is at least possible enough that for this whole time,

876
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: the U. S. Marshall's Office, who took over the case

877
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: from the FBI in nineteen seventy nine, um, they have

878
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: have kept it open. Like these guys are wanted outlaws

879
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: still to this day, even though they would be eight

880
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: nine five. I think by now they are considered wanted

881
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: fugitives in the cases open. Even though I believe the

882
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: Marshall Service typically believes that they're dead, they haven't closed

883
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: the case. Yeah. Here's my deal. If you do something

884
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: like this and you don't leave some rock solid deathbed evidence,

885
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: then you're just selfish, You really are. You owe it

886
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 1: to the world to to have this be a lead

887
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: story and be like Frank Morris died and you know,

888
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: here's the evidence. Here's that little flower from the movie. Yeah, exactly,

889
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: teach teach your smartest head of cattle to stamp out

890
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: a message in morse code. That's what I want you

891
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: spending your dying days doing, teaching that cow. The marshals

892
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: say that they don't think they survived and went on

893
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 1: to lead lives of solitude because they're like, these guys

894
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: are career criminals. They would have done something again, they

895
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: would have gotten caught again. It's a good point arguments

896
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: for is that. And they don't know if they planned

897
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: this that way or not. But when they went on

898
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: the day they went, and during the hours they went,

899
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: they actually had a few good hours of pretty calm

900
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: bay currents. Um the you know, it could be so

901
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: bad that they're going to pull you out to see

902
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 1: or so bad that they take you in the wrong direction,

903
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 1: completely away from land. And they said that, you know,

904
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: whether it was just providence or whether they planned it

905
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 1: this way. They had cloudy night, so there wasn't much

906
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: light from the moon, and they had a really calm bay.

907
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: So in theory they might could have done this. They

908
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: could have, but the winds were really terrible that night too. Um,

909
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: I think they were gusts up to like twenty one

910
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: sustained winds of like ten miles an hour. That's tough

911
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: to row. Um. Who knows. If if it was lucky,

912
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: then yeah, if it was blowing them towards Angel Island

913
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: and that was in their favor. It was blowing in

914
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: any other direction, that would make it very very and

915
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: then maybe maybe so they're like, well, that was fortunate.

916
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: I didn't even have to steal a car um. The

917
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: The other problem is the water. The water temperature is

918
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: like fifty degrees fahrenheit, which is very very cold, and

919
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: you get very um numb and eventually uh sent into

920
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: shock and an exhaustion pretty quickly after being in this

921
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: water for thirty minutes or last. But people swim in

922
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: that thing, and it's happened before. They had triathlons in

923
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: the in that water, and people do it. So it's

924
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: not to say that these guys could not have done it.

925
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't so frigid that science would say, oh, no,

926
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: you would die inside five minutes in this water exactly.

927
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: I mean, especially if they were operating on the adrenaline

928
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 1: that they surely would have had from the escape. Shimmying

929
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: fifty ft down a drain pipe alone will pump you

930
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: full of some pretty decent adrenaline, So who knows what

931
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: they were capable of at the time. I have a

932
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:27,919
Speaker 1: theory is that the Anglands killed Frank Morris out there

933
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: on that raft, and that was the body they saw floating,

934
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: and that's why they made it to Brazil and we

935
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 1: never heard from Frank Morris. Again. I don't like your theory.

936
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: You don't think turning on them at the last minute. No, No,

937
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: My theory is that that body was actually Seymour Web,

938
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 1: that he was wearing Denham jeans under pants that got

939
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 1: taken off of his other pants, and that he wasn't

940
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: actually dead, but he met a mermaid um or merman

941
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: who he fell in love with and spent the rest

942
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 1: of his life under the sea with. Well that's lovely

943
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 1: like that theory. But the cherry on top here is

944
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: that those prisoners who wanted to help them escape because

945
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: they thought the prison would close. We're right. The prison

946
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: was shut down the following March, and the Bureau prison said,

947
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: you know what, we were gonna shut this thing down anyway,

948
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: because Alcatraz is just too much to keep up. This

949
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: this big concrete block on a rocky island is too

950
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: expensive to keep up with very few guards. Uh so,

951
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: who knows, but in the movie they definitely sort of

952
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: portray it as is. That's the reason why, Yeah and

953
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: the Warden never had a happy day again. It's right,

954
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: pretty satisfying film, Pretty satisfying film. And Chuck, I guess

955
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: we said all this to say this. We have a

956
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: book coming out that we would love for you to preorder. Yeah,

957
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: that's right. Stuff you should know, an incomplete compendium of

958
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: mostly interesting thing and guys. One of our lifelong dreams

959
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: is to be on the New York Times bestseller list

960
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: and they give you a T shirt. We really want

961
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: to get on that list, and if that list came

962
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: out today, we wouldn't be on it. So we would

963
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: love for you to step up and help our dreams

964
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: come true. Sure, how's that for a plea? I think

965
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: that's a great plea, A plea and a plug all together.

966
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: It's a pleague. Was this in cost twenty bucks? I

967
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: think so? And it's worth every penny. I can tell

968
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: you because we wrote it. That's right. So, um, that's it.

969
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: If you want to go order our book, you can

970
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: pre order anywhere you get books, Thank you in advance.

971
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's it for Escape from Alcatraz to right. Uh.

972
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about escaping from Alcatraz,

973
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: there's some really great articles and books and all sorts

974
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: of stuff out there in the Internet for you to

975
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: dig into. So get digging. As I said, get digging.

976
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: It's time for listener mail. I'm gonna call this Delaware response.

977
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: We kind of poked fund of Delaware a little bit.

978
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: We now, I guess it was me, but Delaware reends

979
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: Delawareans delawar in Delaware. They are lovely people, as it seems,

980
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: because we've gotten quite a few emails, and they'll have

981
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: good humor about their their lovely little state. Hey guys,

982
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 1: our Delaware family had to laugh at your pirate radio podcasts. Delawareans,

983
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's right. There would be proud to be

984
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 1: known as the Luxembourg of the United States. Most people

985
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: drive through our state on nine five and less than

986
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: thirty minutes, but if you do stop by. Our state

987
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 1: is rich in history and agriculture, and we have a

988
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: few nice beaches. What you should know is the ark

989
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 1: on the top of our state. I guess it's an

990
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: arch is made by a twelve mile radius from Newcastle,

991
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: uh in historic town. What many people do not know

992
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: is the bottom of the arc formed a wedge betwixt Pennsylvania, Maryland,

993
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: and Delaware. The ownership of that land was in dispute

994
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 1: between Delaware and Pennsylvania for decades, only to be resolved

995
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: in Rumor has it that the disputed land was a

996
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: haven for unsavory types who capitalized on the uncertain jurisdiction.

997
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for the show and informs and entertains my family

998
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: and we wish you well from Delaware, the first state

999
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: to ratify the constitution, That is from Doug Wazgat and family.

1000
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: Nice Doug, thank you. I would have led with the

1001
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 1: first state to ratify the constitution. Thing. I bet Dave

1002
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: tout that a lot. That's it's a good thing to doubt.

1003
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: H Well, if you want to be like Doug and

1004
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: defend your state, whether it's Delaware or not, we want

1005
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: to hear from you and you can send it in

1006
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: an email to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com.

1007
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's

1008
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio

1009
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: Because at the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts are wherever

1010
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.