WEBVTT - Kirk Franklin 0:00:01.930 --> 0:00:11.600 R & B Money! We are Tank, Tank Valentine. 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.140 We are the authorities on. 0:00:15.540 --> 0:00:17.420 All things R & B. 0:00:17.460 --> 0:00:19.480 Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Tank. 0:00:19.780 --> 0:00:20.500 And Valentine. 0:00:20.620 --> 0:00:23.980 And this is the R & B Money Podcast. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.800 The authority on all things R & B. 0:00:28.620 --> 0:00:28.760 R & B. 0:00:28.860 --> 0:00:32.900 And silver and gold. And silver and gold. I mean, 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:33.940 it's the reason why we sing. 0:00:34.060 --> 0:00:37.600 The Lord. Let me see you stomp. Stomp. Has called 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:42.780 us for such a time. Yes, sir. He's preserved us 0:00:43.540 --> 0:00:45.560 for this very moment. Yeah. 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.970 He has cleaned us up just a little bit, wiped 0:00:50.070 --> 0:00:50.810 us down. 0:00:50.850 --> 0:00:54.670 Wow. So that this man. I'm still looking for a revolution. 0:00:54.730 --> 0:00:55.130 He's still. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.610 So that we could be honored and blessed with the 0:01:01.690 --> 0:01:07.429 presence of a man. Who just doesn't do melodies. He 0:01:07.450 --> 0:01:09.230 does melodies. 0:01:09.390 --> 0:01:14.830 From where? From him. Yeah. Oh, yeah? The reason why 0:01:14.890 --> 0:01:18.220 he does what he does. There's a reason. Yes, it is. 0:01:18.380 --> 0:01:23.740 I thought self-promoted. It's about the man upstairs. 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.940 He's been writing and producing songs since Boothshot Lincoln. 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.750 Not sure if Booth really did it, but you get 0:01:30.790 --> 0:01:33.470 the point. Who did it? We don't know. 0:01:34.590 --> 0:01:39.410 But this man right here is a pioneer trailblazer. 0:01:39.450 --> 0:01:39.830 Yes, sir. 0:01:40.010 --> 0:01:43.910 And it's all in the name of the body of Christ. 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:48.280 He is preaching salvation to the world. I love this brother. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.570 I appreciate this brother. We love this brother. 0:01:50.610 --> 0:01:55.470 Absolutely. We appreciate this brother. Absolutely. Ladies and gentlemen, him. Yeah. 0:01:55.530 --> 0:02:04.100 Kirk Franklin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Man. Welcome, brother. Come on, man. 0:02:04.490 --> 0:02:06.170 Do you remember the first church you played for when 0:02:06.220 --> 0:02:08.460 you were younger? Yes. What was the name of the church? 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.400 It was Christian Union Missionary Baptist Church. Really? Oh, really? 0:02:11.419 --> 0:02:14.570 My home church. I was a baby. I was. I 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.990 don't even know if I was in my teens yet. Really? 0:02:18.090 --> 0:02:21.970 First time playing the drums. First time playing the piano. Now, 0:02:22.050 --> 0:02:23.910 was it a family church or did you just get 0:02:23.950 --> 0:02:26.150 a job there? It's a family church. Really? Yeah, we 0:02:26.210 --> 0:02:29.010 wasn't getting paid for none of that. You lucky. 0:02:29.050 --> 0:02:32.070 Listen, back then, you were lucky if you got the 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.459 chance to get on them drums. 0:02:35.220 --> 0:02:40.000 Or on that piano? Because there was a reverence involved. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:02:40.020 --> 0:02:43.139 Touch that piano? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Move. Get off the piano. 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.640 Get off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how we was treated. 0:02:45.860 --> 0:02:48.919 Do you know that my first church opportunity, guess how 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:53.210 much my bag was? Oh, here we go. I was 12. $ 25? 0:02:52.460 --> 0:02:53.720 I was 12 years old, and I made $ 25 a Sunday, 0:02:53.740 --> 0:02:54.650 but I was rich. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.020 Okay, Kirk, let me help you with that. That is 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.780 a price that you... You was 12 and you was 0:03:04.820 --> 0:03:06.280 getting 25. Isn't that a price that they just get? 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.850 It was constant. He was grown. How much were you getting? 0:03:10.370 --> 0:03:17.010 That same 25. I was a boy. Teenage boy. 0:03:17.210 --> 0:03:17.549 Oh, man. 0:03:17.750 --> 0:03:21.830 Graduating high school. Oh, so you're 18? Getting $ 25. Oh. 0:03:21.850 --> 0:03:23.220 A Sunday. Trying to go on a date. You know 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.760 what they told me? What? The Lord got you. Oh, 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.139 I'm sorry. What is it y'all say? He will provide. 0:03:30.300 --> 0:03:33.040 He will provide. But I love y'all say. I love 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.510 this what y'all say. I love this. This is blessing 0:03:35.550 --> 0:03:38.090 me over here. Because where I'm from, people are like, nigga, 0:03:38.110 --> 0:03:43.510 where my money at? Hold on. Hold on. But no, 0:03:43.550 --> 0:03:44.170 but yeah. 0:03:44.350 --> 0:03:44.530 Yeah. 0:03:44.550 --> 0:03:46.410 But let me not cap though. There are some pastors 0:03:46.930 --> 0:03:48.590 in some of these hood churches that I grew up 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:50.410 in and they would say the same thing. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:50.570 Yeah. 0:03:50.740 --> 0:03:53.260 Yeah. So like I've been there with the church fights. 0:03:53.700 --> 0:03:57.000 I've seen a pastor pull out a gun. Oh yeah. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:58.400 Oh yeah. Like I was in one of them little 0:03:58.460 --> 0:04:01.520 missionary Baptist churches. The pastor and his pistol? Yeah. Oh bro. 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.160 And the hood? Easy. Oh, I played for a church 0:04:05.900 --> 0:04:08.340 in Fort Worth, Texas in a neighborhood called Lake Como. 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:12.880 And Lake Como was... probably one of the largest areas 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:17.159 per capita that had the biggest drug dealers in the country. 0:04:17.540 --> 0:04:20.520 There was a drug dealer in this area and the 0:04:20.589 --> 0:04:24.670 churches knew him. The churches knew the family. And this 0:04:24.770 --> 0:04:29.500 man lived like a king amongst the believers and was 0:04:29.540 --> 0:04:32.180 one of the biggest drug dealers in America. Like, he 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:36.020 was on World News Tonight with Peter Jennings. Yeah. Like, 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:37.650 this is how big of a drug dealer he was. 0:04:38.010 --> 0:04:41.469 And this small community, this black community, had over 30 0:04:41.470 --> 0:04:45.349 churches in this one area. And the drugs and the 0:04:45.410 --> 0:04:50.270 drug dealers, they permeated this community. Wow. Passers had guns, 0:04:50.410 --> 0:04:54.090 passers was fighting and it was, yeah. So, you know, 0:04:54.270 --> 0:04:56.770 I don't want to get off track, but yeah, man. So, 0:04:57.110 --> 0:05:01.390 you know, the streets and the saints, they kind of. 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.020 Always been correlated. Yeah, absolutely. 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.460 I used to bring my friends who was up the street, 0:05:07.260 --> 0:05:09.380 you know, and they was big in the pimping and 0:05:09.420 --> 0:05:10.039 drug game. 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:11.620 And every like Easter. 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:11.719 Yeah. 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.420 For Christmas service. 0:05:14.460 --> 0:05:16.460 That's when we would go. That's when you would go? 0:05:17.820 --> 0:05:22.070 I had to have my fish. I'd get them to come. 0:05:22.390 --> 0:05:25.490 Or I'd talk them into coming to Vacation Bible School. Oh, 0:05:25.550 --> 0:05:27.650 because the girls would be there. 0:05:27.970 --> 0:05:30.990 Oh, the girls. The young girls would be there. 0:05:31.370 --> 0:05:33.870 Even if you don't hear everything, you know what I'm saying? 0:05:34.150 --> 0:05:36.779 Some godly women there. 0:05:37.180 --> 0:05:44.190 Did y'all do those church sleep-ins? The church sleep-ins. I'm 0:05:44.250 --> 0:05:48.140 so sorry, Chief. We didn't do nothing. The church sleep-ins. 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.420 They call them lock-ins. Lock-ins is what they call them. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.600 It's the lock-in. Lock-in is wild. Oh, bro. 0:05:54.779 --> 0:05:56.719 No, yeah, it's because you couldn't leave. I don't think 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.760 they're ready for this, Kirk, the lock-in. 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:04.060 But like all the youth, like teenagers, with just hormones, 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.620 going crazy, all locked in a church at night. 0:06:07.940 --> 0:06:09.270 Oh, if I was a church nigga, I would have 0:06:09.310 --> 0:06:09.810 so many kids. 0:06:09.870 --> 0:06:12.350 It was. Stop telling me. The touching and agreeing that 0:06:12.390 --> 0:06:16.419 would happen. Oh, King. In the lock-in. Oh. Oh. 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:21.260 The touching and agreeing at the lock-in is insane. 0:06:21.300 --> 0:06:23.360 Let me tell you something. It would, you would never 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:24.320 want it to end. 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:24.430 Yeah. 0:06:25.830 --> 0:06:30.670 You never want it to end. We never did. So, so, 0:06:31.070 --> 0:06:33.650 so thank you that we have these experiences. Thank you 0:06:33.670 --> 0:06:39.830 for inviting me. Thank you. To clear it all up. Yeah. 0:06:39.970 --> 0:06:43.180 And if you're listening, I'm sorry. Um, yeah. I have 0:06:43.420 --> 0:06:46.080 a bone to pick with you, brother. I already know 0:06:46.100 --> 0:06:47.920 what it is. I'm going to get this off my chest. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:48.780 You know what I'm saying? 0:06:48.860 --> 0:06:51.710 Before we get into the, the, the beginnings and the 0:06:51.750 --> 0:06:52.909 creations of brother. 0:06:52.950 --> 0:06:53.289 Yeah. 0:06:53.350 --> 0:06:57.510 I just want to say it the right way over there. 0:06:57.650 --> 0:06:57.969 Yeah. 0:06:58.010 --> 0:07:03.290 You know, cause Kurt, you know, people need to understand it, 0:07:03.470 --> 0:07:05.490 that you kind of stole my flow. 0:07:05.990 --> 0:07:10.290 Bar for bar, always word for word. No, he did. 0:07:10.590 --> 0:07:14.500 Cause in the beginning, Kurt, Kurt was worshiping the Lord 0:07:14.820 --> 0:07:15.800 with a regular body. 0:07:16.220 --> 0:07:16.540 Right. 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:21.170 And then, and then, Me and Kirk had a conversation. 0:07:21.230 --> 0:07:22.710 It was in Dallas. We talked one time. We had 0:07:22.730 --> 0:07:23.410 a conversation. 0:07:23.430 --> 0:07:26.910 And then all of a sudden, you started looking more 0:07:26.950 --> 0:07:30.990 and more like me. And you started worshiping the Lord 0:07:31.010 --> 0:07:37.300 with my body. But I saw the backlash, and I'm 0:07:37.340 --> 0:07:39.700 glad they did it. Because I wanted to do it. 0:07:41.860 --> 0:07:44.340 But I just leaned on them so I wouldn't look 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:44.980 like a hater. 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.640 I'm glad they jumped on me for looking like me. 0:07:51.020 --> 0:07:52.180 I thought he was going somewhere else. 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.000 I actually thought he was, too, because he also says 0:07:55.020 --> 0:07:56.420 that you stole his sound. 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:00.350 That's what he told me. So, hold on. So, first 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.630 of all, I took your body. You took my whole body. 0:08:02.810 --> 0:08:04.310 And I took your sound. Bar for bar, word for word. 0:08:04.490 --> 0:08:06.070 I don't think you took my sound. You were better 0:08:06.090 --> 0:08:10.150 than me. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Listen, when 0:08:10.170 --> 0:08:13.350 you dropped it. When your song came out, I said, oh, 0:08:13.390 --> 0:08:16.770 that's how it's done. Okay. Got it. Okay. That's how 0:08:16.810 --> 0:08:19.210 you do that. 0:08:19.430 --> 0:08:23.610 But my mind was in that place because I was 0:08:23.810 --> 0:08:27.920 always trying to figure out how to get to them. 0:08:28.790 --> 0:08:30.830 You know, I've told this story before of when I 0:08:30.870 --> 0:08:32.870 had this group, I had just started writing my little 0:08:32.990 --> 0:08:34.410 R & B, you know what I'm saying? Just trying 0:08:34.450 --> 0:08:36.510 my hand at it and producing it. But I also 0:08:36.530 --> 0:08:38.840 had a group at the time, we're called Psalms. It 0:08:38.860 --> 0:08:41.460 was like five crazy leads singing. Like we was, we 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.619 was really dope. And I heard of it and we 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:44.339 used to move around. 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:44.960 Yeah. Yeah. 0:08:45.179 --> 0:08:49.270 And so when I went to that concert, my little 0:08:49.290 --> 0:08:52.830 girls group, they opened for Immature and And so I 0:08:52.850 --> 0:08:54.580 was like, dude, you want to see a mature performer? 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:56.079 I was like, no, I'm going to see a mature performer. 0:08:56.140 --> 0:08:57.660 I'm going to just let my girls group do their thing. 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:58.700 I'm going to get on out of here at the 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.260 Baltimore Arena. Somehow I got blocked in and I ended 0:09:02.300 --> 0:09:05.780 up having to stay until all the cars got out 0:09:05.820 --> 0:09:07.260 so I could get out. And I was like, I'll 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:08.920 watch and see what they're doing. A couple of musicians 0:09:08.940 --> 0:09:10.780 was there. They seemed kind of cool. They was like, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:11.780 you going to watch the show? I was like, I'm 0:09:11.820 --> 0:09:13.250 going to watch the show. I'm going to see what 0:09:13.260 --> 0:09:15.490 y'all got. Because I'm the uppity church musician. You know 0:09:15.510 --> 0:09:17.470 what I'm saying? I got all the chops and everything. 0:09:17.510 --> 0:09:21.079 So they were running MPC at the time. these two 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:25.000 NPCs that are linked together starts to running and, and 0:09:25.020 --> 0:09:27.590 the effects and the sound start to go. I'm like, 0:09:28.290 --> 0:09:33.590 I'm looking around. What is happening? And they're playing, playing 0:09:34.690 --> 0:09:37.470 and immature comes out and the explosion, the curtain fall 0:09:37.510 --> 0:09:41.430 and everybody's screaming. I'm like, and I'm listening to him saying, 0:09:41.470 --> 0:09:43.370 I'm listening to the songs and the structure. I'm like, 0:09:44.130 --> 0:09:50.300 this is dope. And my mind went straight to I'm 0:09:50.340 --> 0:09:54.630 watching them. Their performance is off the chain. Their singing 0:09:54.690 --> 0:09:57.470 is cool. They're not like crazy singers, but they can sing, right? 0:09:57.929 --> 0:09:59.230 And I'm like, man. 0:10:01.490 --> 0:10:04.949 With the message that we have and as good as 0:10:05.010 --> 0:10:08.720 singers as we are, we couldn't follow these three. 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:14.020 Kids right now. I said, and why is that? So 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.140 we got to level up. The Sonics. Everything. Yeah. 0:10:17.780 --> 0:10:24.240 From their clothes to their presentation, their boldness, how they 0:10:24.260 --> 0:10:28.050 was performing, whatever message they're delivering, they're getting it across. 0:10:28.730 --> 0:10:30.829 And that's what we got to compete with. So I 0:10:30.850 --> 0:10:34.030 don't think we being competitive, guys. I think we are 0:10:34.090 --> 0:10:40.000 doing less for the man who deserves the most. And 0:10:40.030 --> 0:10:42.760 we tried it. Tried it a few times. And one 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.720 time it didn't work at a Steve Lawrence Christmas cantata. 0:10:48.590 --> 0:10:53.960 Have you ever heard the term? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:55.420 glad you haven't continued. 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.560 At a cantata. It was a new year's Eve and we, 0:10:59.700 --> 0:11:02.180 I had the tracks going. I had the dancers. I 0:11:02.220 --> 0:11:04.540 had the lights. I had everything. It was one of 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.490 them old churches. And as soon as we came running 0:11:07.620 --> 0:11:11.569 out with our white two piece linens on the power 0:11:11.610 --> 0:11:11.890 went out. 0:11:13.730 --> 0:11:15.150 Gosh, geez. 0:11:16.450 --> 0:11:20.070 To me, It was a sign that we were close 0:11:21.490 --> 0:11:24.290 and there was just opposition fighting against us. Let's just 0:11:24.309 --> 0:11:25.990 go back to the drawing board. Let's figure it out 0:11:26.330 --> 0:11:30.610 to everyone else. It wasn't of God. And that's why 0:11:31.030 --> 0:11:31.770 I hate that work. 0:11:32.030 --> 0:11:33.099 I hate that. I see it. 0:11:34.460 --> 0:11:37.460 And that's, you just want to be seen. God don't 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.740 need all that. I'm like, man, have you ever heard 0:11:40.780 --> 0:11:43.800 of a miracle? Do you know what that looks like? 0:11:44.179 --> 0:11:47.490 Yeah, that's good. That's God showing all the way out. 0:11:47.690 --> 0:11:52.720 That's good. I said, we doing it for him? That's good. 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.620 And you can't put on no nice clothes for the homie? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:58.920 For the big homie. For the big homie? For the 0:11:58.970 --> 0:12:00.189 big homie. You can't. 0:12:01.070 --> 0:12:04.610 And that probably was the beginning of me just kind 0:12:04.650 --> 0:12:08.430 of really trying other styles of music. 0:12:08.570 --> 0:12:17.060 But then you come out. And I'm like, that's what 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:17.640 it's supposed to be. 0:12:18.420 --> 0:12:18.579 Wow. 0:12:19.140 --> 0:12:25.380 That's it. That's that. Wow. And I was like, and 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:30.160 I think I was a little mad at first. Like 0:12:30.179 --> 0:12:32.730 when I took your body? Like when you took my body. 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:34.850 I think he was mad about the sound. 0:12:35.970 --> 0:12:40.150 But then I actually saw you in person for the 0:12:40.190 --> 0:12:43.130 first time at, I don't think it was a national 0:12:43.190 --> 0:12:45.450 Baptist convention. I can't remember what convention it was, but 0:12:45.490 --> 0:12:48.390 it was you, Hezekiah Walker, bunch of people on the bill. 0:12:49.270 --> 0:12:51.770 And I think I told you this before. Hezekiah had 0:12:51.830 --> 0:12:57.770 it jumping. He had it jumping. And I'm like, well, 0:12:57.809 --> 0:13:01.820 what's Kirk going to do after this? It wasn't like, okay, 0:13:02.980 --> 0:13:06.760 let me compete with Hezekiah Walker. It was like, let 0:13:06.820 --> 0:13:10.520 me take what he has ushered in and build on that. 0:13:11.710 --> 0:13:15.210 And you took that energy and turned it into one 0:13:15.230 --> 0:13:19.750 of the biggest altercals I was After that, I was 0:13:19.770 --> 0:13:23.290 your number one fan. Again, we're competitive in that space. 0:13:24.170 --> 0:13:26.150 So it's like one choir go and kill, you got 0:13:26.170 --> 0:13:29.510 to go and kill. That's what everybody's thinking. And you 0:13:29.530 --> 0:13:33.339 were like, nah, it's not even time for that. 0:13:33.510 --> 0:13:34.000 It's here. 0:13:34.580 --> 0:13:38.040 And we need to capitalize on that. We need to 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.120 get the people who are ready and willing and able 0:13:41.179 --> 0:13:43.200 right now. We need to get them right now. And 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.560 you proceeded to minister and win that. 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.240 Souls for Christ. And I said, Oh my God, I 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.500 had him all wrong. Wow. And ever since then, you've, 0:13:54.059 --> 0:13:57.960 you've been my favorite. It's sort of like, it's, it's you, 0:13:58.059 --> 0:14:01.090 it's John P. Key. Yes, sir. It's commissioned. Yes, sir. 0:14:01.230 --> 0:14:03.910 You know what I'm saying? Like it's Kim Burrell. Yes, sir. 0:14:04.350 --> 0:14:05.930 You know, like you were in that space for me 0:14:05.970 --> 0:14:07.930 where you, you became study material. 0:14:08.210 --> 0:14:13.949 Wow. That's wow. Wow. Yeah. Like you're, you're education. Wow. 0:14:14.530 --> 0:14:17.480 That's wow. I don't, I don't have words for that. 0:14:17.660 --> 0:14:17.880 Wow. 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:19.600 So I wanted to give you that. 0:14:19.780 --> 0:14:22.000 I know that was a lot, but I needed to 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:23.450 make sure you had that from me. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.290 Humbling. Yes, sir. Very humbling. Very humbling. It's because I 0:14:27.330 --> 0:14:29.930 know your acumen and I know where you've been. I 0:14:29.970 --> 0:14:31.850 know what you've done. I know who you've worked with, 0:14:32.170 --> 0:14:34.290 who you've written for, you've produced. And I know the 0:14:34.330 --> 0:14:37.090 diversity even of your craft, you know, in front of 0:14:37.110 --> 0:14:42.880 the camera, you know, behind the control booth, in the booth. So, 0:14:42.940 --> 0:14:46.200 you know, that's very humbling. And then your pedigree. you know, 0:14:46.220 --> 0:14:48.300 speaks for itself. So it is an honor to be, 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.240 you know what I'm saying? Just in this, uh, this, 0:14:51.700 --> 0:14:56.280 this airspace. This is really, really dope. Thank y'all. Thank you. 0:14:56.300 --> 0:15:08.330 Let's go to the beginning, Kurt. Go to Dallas, man. 0:15:08.430 --> 0:15:11.990 What was it called? Fort Worth. Fort Worth. Oh, yeah. 0:15:12.050 --> 0:15:16.160 Please don't confuse those. Okay. Because when you're from the funk, 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.260 and you don't let people know you're from the funk 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.880 because Dallas get all the love, but if you ever 0:15:20.900 --> 0:15:23.380 say you're from Dallas, even from the funk, you can't 0:15:23.420 --> 0:15:26.930 live in that city no more. Got you. No, no, no. 0:15:26.990 --> 0:15:30.290 I understand. I understand. We like that in the Bay Area. 0:15:30.390 --> 0:15:34.670 Absolutely understand. I'm Fort Worth proud. I'm from Fort Worth, Texas. 0:15:35.090 --> 0:15:37.450 Mama didn't want to be a mama. You know, who 0:15:37.510 --> 0:15:40.690 I thought was a daddy was never there. And so 0:15:40.790 --> 0:15:46.090 this older lady adopted me. I was born Kirk Mathis. Hmm. Yeah. 0:15:46.430 --> 0:15:50.170 Kirk Mathis. You kind of Johnny Mathis, you think? Do 0:15:50.220 --> 0:15:52.270 not think so. Do not think so. Because he from 0:15:52.290 --> 0:15:53.600 San Francisco. You know what I mean? So, you know, 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:55.060 I had to shout him out. Do not think so. 0:15:55.180 --> 0:15:57.180 And Johnny Mathis wrote some songs. Come on, Johnny Mathis, 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.700 that guy. Yeah, yeah. And then it got changed to 0:15:59.740 --> 0:16:05.250 Kirk Smith because somebody... Somebody married somebody when I was 0:16:05.390 --> 0:16:08.350 still an infant because they were in the military and 0:16:08.370 --> 0:16:11.190 they wanted the military benefits. But then they didn't want 0:16:11.230 --> 0:16:15.570 me anymore. And then this older lady adopted me. She 0:16:15.630 --> 0:16:19.780 took me and she was a widow at the time. Well, 0:16:20.060 --> 0:16:23.260 her husband was dying. That's when they had hospital beds 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:24.160 in the house. 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:24.960 Yeah. Yeah. 0:16:25.020 --> 0:16:25.260 Yeah. 0:16:25.300 --> 0:16:25.700 Yeah. Yeah. 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.340 You know, I'm showing my age right there. 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:27.540 Right. 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.060 You know, like there was no hospice back then. 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:30.480 Right. Right. 0:16:30.950 --> 0:16:35.210 And his name was Jack Franklin. And so I never 0:16:35.450 --> 0:16:38.330 I wasn't old enough to remember him. But she adopted 0:16:38.350 --> 0:16:40.850 me when I was four. She was a widow. You know, 0:16:40.930 --> 0:16:45.040 food stamps, government cheese. She recycled cans and newspapers to 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.680 pay for my piano lessons. We had a raggedy piano 0:16:47.700 --> 0:16:49.440 in front of the house. I had no siblings to 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.780 have any family. It was just me and Gertrude. It 0:16:51.820 --> 0:16:54.000 was a lonely life because I was four. She was 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.040 sixty four. So by the time I'm 10, she was 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:02.540 64 years old, fourth grade education. She was born in 1908. 0:17:02.540 --> 0:17:05.260 And so, I mean, and it was an older neighborhood. 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.130 So they would like, you know, I spent a lot 0:17:07.190 --> 0:17:10.610 of time playing by myself, living life by myself. So 0:17:10.650 --> 0:17:13.050 what happened was, is that because she was a church lady, 0:17:13.530 --> 0:17:16.980 this idea of Jesus became for me as a little 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.330 bitty boy, an invisible friend. Hmm. If that kind of 0:17:21.350 --> 0:17:25.030 makes sense. So because she talked about him so much, 0:17:25.470 --> 0:17:27.570 the church culture talked about him so much. And as 0:17:27.609 --> 0:17:29.890 an infant, you know, as a five, six, seven year 0:17:29.910 --> 0:17:32.820 old little kid, I didn't understand the gravity of it. 0:17:32.850 --> 0:17:34.960 So he just became like my playmate. Because what I 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.000 was hungry for was somebody to play with. You know, 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.420 I needed, because her being an older woman, she wasn't 0:17:40.460 --> 0:17:42.740 taking me to the park. And y'all know that generation, 0:17:42.770 --> 0:17:45.469 they were not a nurturing generation. So, you know, there 0:17:45.490 --> 0:17:47.469 were not words of affirmation. There was not, you're going 0:17:47.490 --> 0:17:49.770 to be somebody, you're going to be something. So, you know, 0:17:49.830 --> 0:17:52.390 it was very quiet in the house. It was quiet. 0:17:52.430 --> 0:17:53.969 You talking about on the creek, my nigga, it was 0:17:54.030 --> 0:17:57.350 quiet in the house. And so it was just that piano. 0:17:57.910 --> 0:18:00.450 All I had was that piano and this idea of, 0:18:00.820 --> 0:18:03.619 of an invisible friend named Jesus. I tell people all 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:05.879 the time, Jesus had my heart before he had my 0:18:05.940 --> 0:18:08.380 soul because I fell in love with just the idea 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:10.939 of having an invisible friend. So I would climb on 0:18:10.980 --> 0:18:12.699 top of the roof at night because, you know, it's 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:14.580 a little trap house and you can easily climb up 0:18:14.660 --> 0:18:16.940 on the, you know, tree, you know, branching on top 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:18.520 of the roof. And I would just lay on top 0:18:18.540 --> 0:18:20.520 of the roof, you know, at night and just talk 0:18:20.540 --> 0:18:22.840 to God through the stars, talk to God and just 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.659 feel the, feel the summer wind hitting my face, you know, 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:27.710 just feel the breeze, you know what I mean? Hitting 0:18:27.730 --> 0:18:30.270 the gunshots, you know what I'm saying? Hitting the, you know, 0:18:30.330 --> 0:18:33.550 the adult boys down over there by the pool, you know, 0:18:33.630 --> 0:18:36.630 shack around the corner and just talking to God, you know, 0:18:36.890 --> 0:18:39.330 never had a curfew, you know, you know, as long 0:18:39.369 --> 0:18:41.500 as the body didn't come a missing, nobody really cared, 0:18:41.740 --> 0:18:43.840 you know? So I was out at night by myself and, 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:48.000 you know, didn't really have any, you know, accountability. Uh, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.380 but I had that piano, it was that piano, uh, 0:18:50.700 --> 0:18:53.940 And so, uh, I started to hear songs on the radio. 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.639 It wasn't gospel music that influenced me because she went 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:00.020 to one of those older Zion Baptist churches where everything was, 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.600 it was hymns. It wasn't progressive. Like there was no 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.770 Andre Crouch, you know, so it wasn't the popping because 0:19:06.810 --> 0:19:09.590 in my generation, the popping churches were the Kojic churches. 0:19:09.910 --> 0:19:12.910 They were the Pentecostal church. That's where all the talented, 0:19:13.210 --> 0:19:15.429 you know, very kind of forward, you know, sing as 0:19:15.490 --> 0:19:18.850 a musician over that Kojic, you know? Uh, so being 0:19:18.869 --> 0:19:20.790 in one of those traditional churches, I was influenced by 0:19:20.830 --> 0:19:22.990 what's on that radio. So I would take them joints 0:19:23.070 --> 0:19:25.430 on the radio and I would play those songs, Commodores, 0:19:25.690 --> 0:19:28.680 you know, uh, Michael Jackson, she's out of my life. 0:19:28.980 --> 0:19:31.220 And I would go, you know, you know, to school 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:32.840 or something and just jump on a piano. And that's 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.139 how I got girls. Girls pay me attention because I 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.170 could play all the R & B songs. And then 0:19:37.190 --> 0:19:39.290 what I started to do is I would take those 0:19:39.430 --> 0:19:41.159 R & B songs and I would flip them like, uh, 0:19:41.810 --> 0:19:43.570 Elton John had a song called Ben and the Jets, 0:19:43.850 --> 0:19:46.250 and I played it. I said, he's coming back. I 0:19:46.290 --> 0:19:51.440 know he's coming back. I know that Jesus is coming. back. 0:19:53.160 --> 0:20:02.010 He said that he is coming back. And I could 0:20:02.050 --> 0:20:05.770 tell that got me attention. I was just looking for attention. 0:20:06.250 --> 0:20:08.370 So you're doing this in grade school? I'm doing this 0:20:08.450 --> 0:20:11.960 at seven. I'm doing this at seven. Wow. Yeah. Yep. 0:20:11.980 --> 0:20:14.400 That was his sound tank. It wasn't yours. You know, 0:20:14.460 --> 0:20:16.740 I'm just trying to figure out the timeline. 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.320 I'm just trying to figure this whole timeline thing out. 0:20:19.580 --> 0:20:19.800 Yeah. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:20.220 Yeah. 0:20:20.460 --> 0:20:20.640 Yeah. 0:20:20.869 --> 0:20:25.370 So that was the start, you know, lonely. Did have friends. 0:20:25.770 --> 0:20:27.369 All I had was music and I was trying to 0:20:27.410 --> 0:20:30.689 find some way to get somebody to see me. Wow. 0:20:31.450 --> 0:20:32.450 How do you lonely life? 0:20:33.090 --> 0:20:36.719 How do you get to a place where you can 0:20:36.740 --> 0:20:38.020 be discovered with all this? 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.800 You know, interestingly, I started to get attention as a 0:20:41.859 --> 0:20:45.760 young boy because in that area and in that time, 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.480 you know, the newspapers and different things, they started to 0:20:48.500 --> 0:20:50.639 kind of see me as like a prodigy. And I was, 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:52.920 you know, so I got offered a contract when I 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:57.150 was young. And Gertrude said, no. Yeah, she said, no, 0:20:57.190 --> 0:21:00.790 he was too young. I just started still playing, still playing. 0:21:01.130 --> 0:21:04.210 And then, you know. Being a church kid in my 0:21:04.270 --> 0:21:07.580 generation wasn't cool. So then you start, you know, hanging 0:21:07.619 --> 0:21:09.379 out with the dope boys. You start to do the 0:21:09.420 --> 0:21:11.480 whoop-de-whoop because you didn't want to be looked at as 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.340 a church kid. So you start smoking. You start wilding out. 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.650 You start becoming very promiscuous because, you know, you don't 0:21:17.690 --> 0:21:20.460 have the love of a mother anymore. And then because 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:21.980 you have your mother's love, then you're just trying to 0:21:22.020 --> 0:21:24.890 find love through girls and just try, you know. So 0:21:24.950 --> 0:21:28.350 it wasn't just sex. It was also wanting to be 0:21:28.550 --> 0:21:32.170 held by a woman, wanting to be held by a female. Because, again, 0:21:32.190 --> 0:21:34.609 that older generation girl, she wasn't going to be hugging 0:21:34.670 --> 0:21:36.810 on me. She wasn't going to be embracing me like that. 0:21:36.850 --> 0:21:40.590 So I didn't get that nurturing. And so music and 0:21:41.170 --> 0:21:44.220 trying to find love the wrong way, they consumed my life. 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:46.800 And then a friend of mine when I was about 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.659 15 got killed. And he was the good kid. He 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:51.520 was the church kid, the kid that one while and 0:21:51.540 --> 0:21:53.929 we were smoking, selling weed a little bit, you know, 0:21:53.970 --> 0:21:56.510 with the friends, whatever, whatever. And then he got killed. 0:21:56.550 --> 0:21:59.689 And when he got killed, I knew that was my 0:21:59.730 --> 0:22:03.880 first time that all of this church conversation is like, OK, 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.500 this ain't going right. You know, I'm playing at church. 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:10.280 I'm hearing this. You know, we're walking out and a 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:12.889 good kid gets killed. And that woke me up. And 0:22:12.970 --> 0:22:16.230 so in the summer of 1985, around by June, July, 0:22:16.270 --> 0:22:19.379 summer of 85, I got on my knees in Gertrude's den. 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.800 That's when they used to have dens. You know, old 0:22:21.820 --> 0:22:24.460 people had dens in their houses. It was a two-bedroom 0:22:24.530 --> 0:22:26.190 and a den. And a den. That's the living room. 0:22:26.270 --> 0:22:26.490 Yeah. 0:22:27.050 --> 0:22:30.170 Two-bedroom and a den. No doors. No doors. No doors. 0:22:30.190 --> 0:22:33.000 My sister's bedroom was in the den. No doors. No doors. 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:34.199 Not even a door to the toilet. 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:34.359 No. 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:35.760 No, you had the toilet somewhere else. 0:22:35.780 --> 0:22:35.980 Yeah, yeah. 0:22:36.060 --> 0:22:38.679 Horrible life. Horrible life. You ain't got no door to 0:22:38.700 --> 0:22:41.910 the toilet. Horrible life. Living with an older woman. Horrible life. 0:22:42.310 --> 0:22:44.570 Horrible life. Didn't understand. Was like, don't need to see that. 0:22:45.010 --> 0:22:45.209 You know? 0:22:46.869 --> 0:22:50.200 So they had an outhouse in the house. No, it 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:51.980 was in the house. Yeah, I know, but it was 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.100 in it. You saw everything. 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:58.960 You see your grandmama running from the bedroom. 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:01.859 You want to see that? I want to see that. 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:10.710 Granny naked. Yes. Trauma. You know what I'm saying? 0:23:10.750 --> 0:23:10.970 Yeah. 0:23:11.109 --> 0:23:13.790 And so that summer, you know, I got on my 0:23:13.810 --> 0:23:15.620 knees in the den and I was like, you know, 0:23:16.100 --> 0:23:18.940 you know, Jesus, I don't know much about you, but 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:21.000 I know that I'm not living right. And I want 0:23:21.020 --> 0:23:23.940 to get to know you. And the summer of 85, man, 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:26.720 I was like, you know, I want to believe that you, 0:23:26.740 --> 0:23:29.530 you know, gave your life for me. And I want 0:23:29.550 --> 0:23:32.070 to accept you in my heart as my savior. And 0:23:32.109 --> 0:23:34.330 I get chills even right now thinking about it, bros, 0:23:34.369 --> 0:23:37.910 because that was a real shock. For real, for real 0:23:37.950 --> 0:23:40.410 moment for me is a shorty, man. And I'll never 0:23:40.450 --> 0:23:44.700 forget that moment. I can talk about it vividly. Summer 1985, 0:23:44.700 --> 0:23:49.600 I had a chance to have a real experience with 0:23:50.060 --> 0:23:54.670 the one that I communicated my faith with back then musically, 0:23:54.730 --> 0:23:58.760 but now it became relational. And so, you know, stopped 0:23:58.820 --> 0:24:01.939 wilding out, you know, smoking and drinking a little bit. 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.780 Still had trouble with them girls. Still struggled with them girls, 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.940 you know, because it was so wrapped in love and affection. Again, 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:12.000 I'm 15. I'm 15 years old. And so, but then 0:24:12.020 --> 0:24:15.979 the music changed. The music changed. Like the songs. I'll 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:18.619 never forget. It was just weird. The songs started coming. 0:24:19.260 --> 0:24:24.200 Songwriting for me has been oxygen. See, you guys come 0:24:24.260 --> 0:24:30.619 from worlds where... Writing rooms and getting in rooms and 0:24:30.700 --> 0:24:33.929 writing with people and collab and doing that. You know, 0:24:33.990 --> 0:24:37.270 it's part of the culture. You coming from gospel from 0:24:37.369 --> 0:24:39.270 a little bit, you know, he'll tell you one, but 0:24:39.350 --> 0:24:44.109 it's true. There was not co-writing in gospel. Like it 0:24:44.130 --> 0:24:45.870 wasn't even part of the culture. Am I right or wrong? 0:24:46.050 --> 0:24:46.190 No. 0:24:46.369 --> 0:24:49.409 We didn't even know that language. It wasn't an arrogant move. 0:24:49.890 --> 0:24:53.510 It was just what it was. I wrote all the songs. Yeah. 0:24:53.550 --> 0:24:55.490 It just was what it was. Do you think that 0:24:55.930 --> 0:24:59.340 it's like that or was like that? Because people looked 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.709 at it like their relationship with God, their personal relationship. 0:25:02.730 --> 0:25:04.250 And that's the songs that they wrote. They had to 0:25:04.270 --> 0:25:06.620 write them themselves. I don't know if it's as much 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:08.420 that it could be some of that or a lot 0:25:08.460 --> 0:25:11.060 of it for me, I think it was just exposure. Like, 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:13.980 you know, like it just becomes your natural. And I 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:16.780 do think, I do think even when you look at 0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:21.399 a lot of the, you know, the David Fosters and 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:24.440 the Diane Warrens and people of that generation, I do 0:25:24.530 --> 0:25:28.270 think that co-writing and writing rooms, they just didn't exist 0:25:28.310 --> 0:25:28.750 back then. 0:25:29.170 --> 0:25:31.490 Even the guys I was studying, like I'm studying Babyface 0:25:32.170 --> 0:25:34.850 and the only name I would hear is Babyface. 0:25:34.869 --> 0:25:37.820 Yeah. Yes. Well, if I'm studying Timberland, I'm like, okay, 0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:39.860 Timberland did the whole beat. Yeah. 0:25:40.020 --> 0:25:42.679 You know, it's very singular at that time. There was 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:45.840 like no writing crew. I think maybe not until like 0:25:45.859 --> 0:25:47.160 the hit men came along. 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:48.419 Yes. That it was like. 0:25:48.460 --> 0:25:52.450 Yeah, I mean, I think because we didn't know... about 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:55.560 as much. We didn't really know about Highland Dozier Highland 0:25:55.619 --> 0:25:58.040 and we didn't really know about the Motown sound that 0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:02.500 was being created by multiple people. Because it wasn't publicized 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:04.760 the same way. I just felt, I just thought Smokey 0:26:04.780 --> 0:26:05.260 wrote everything. 0:26:05.300 --> 0:26:05.480 Right. 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:06.399 Yeah. Yeah. 0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:06.600 Yeah. 0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:09.820 Yeah. Yeah. Like, let me say something interesting about gospel 0:26:10.420 --> 0:26:13.679 and gospel music, especially in the eighties, seventies, eighties, nineties, 0:26:15.140 --> 0:26:22.119 who wrote the song? was as known, respected, and popular 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:27.470 as the singer of the song. Gotcha. That, in gospel music, 0:26:28.609 --> 0:26:33.530 the first thing, in the gospel music industry, in that culture, 0:26:33.550 --> 0:26:36.760 it's like, oh, who wrote that? Like, who wrote that 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:37.470 Tremaine song? 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:37.980 Yeah. 0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.980 Like, it was, you know, like, who wrote that song 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:44.820 for Mahalia Jackson? Like, it was very much kind of 0:26:44.859 --> 0:26:49.780 part of The calling and the ecosystem that you just 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:54.480 matriculated in. We would fly in songwriters. 0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:57.439 Yes. Like if there was like an anniversary choir day 0:26:57.460 --> 0:26:58.500 or something, as I go back to St. 0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:04.350 Lawrence. Doing a workshop. They would bring the elite songwriter. Yes. 0:27:04.570 --> 0:27:06.310 And they would teach you the song. 0:27:06.369 --> 0:27:06.649 Yes. 0:27:06.770 --> 0:27:10.530 On spot. Yeah. That they wrote. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That 0:27:10.570 --> 0:27:13.660 is very... Very true. And it was called workshops. Like 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:16.080 you would fly in a songwriter to do a music 0:27:16.100 --> 0:27:21.629 workshop and people would pay money to be in a choir. Yeah. 0:27:21.730 --> 0:27:24.790 Sing that person's song. Sing that person's song. So he 0:27:24.830 --> 0:27:27.489 would bring his catalog of songs. Like there was one 0:27:27.550 --> 0:27:29.510 guy and you remember this name probably. There was a 0:27:29.550 --> 0:27:32.230 guy named B. Michael McKay. You remember B. Michael McKay? 0:27:32.490 --> 0:27:35.450 He wrote the Pottis House. He wrote some big songs 0:27:35.490 --> 0:27:37.669 for the Hawkins. And this guy was one of the 0:27:37.710 --> 0:27:41.380 guys I looked up to. And he made a living, 0:27:41.940 --> 0:27:45.119 a great living, and would be booked every weekend going 0:27:45.140 --> 0:27:47.660 to different parts of the country. And normally what happened, 0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:51.080 you'd bring him in on a Thursday. Rehearsal would be Thursday. Friday, 0:27:51.100 --> 0:27:54.240 the concert would be that Saturday night. And if your 0:27:54.260 --> 0:27:56.560 church had a lot of bread, then they would keep 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:59.919 him over that Sunday morning. And then he would do 0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:05.580 his thing, which required a Sunday morning. So was there already.... 0:28:06.380 --> 0:28:08.600 A business that you were trying to get into? 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:11.480 No. As a writer? No. So you don't know nothing 0:28:11.540 --> 0:28:13.780 about this stuff at that time, though? Nothing about it. 0:28:13.800 --> 0:28:16.330 God was just giving me songs. And then what I 0:28:16.350 --> 0:28:18.610 would do is I would take those songs to my 0:28:18.650 --> 0:28:22.730 high school choir, take those songs to my youth choir, because, 0:28:22.770 --> 0:28:28.780 you know, especially once again, in my generation, church culture 0:28:29.540 --> 0:28:34.940 was a flourishing culture. Like, if you were Roberta Jenkins... 0:28:35.369 --> 0:28:38.980 and you were the cold soloist at the Ebenezer Baptist Church, 0:28:39.680 --> 0:28:42.100 in that city, you were a star. You were a superstar. 0:28:42.760 --> 0:28:46.300 You were a star. You could go into Luby's, Denny's, Bennigan's, 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:48.670 and get your food for free. Like, you was one 0:28:48.690 --> 0:28:53.030 of them ones. That's how church culture permeated those communities. 0:28:53.110 --> 0:28:53.190 Oh. 0:28:53.810 --> 0:28:56.300 Oh, yeah. Because there were so many churches. There were 0:28:56.340 --> 0:28:59.979 so many churches. And everybody wanted Roberta Johnson for their 0:29:00.100 --> 0:29:05.540 annual musical, for their cantata. Yes. Tell me what the 0:29:05.660 --> 0:29:10.850 cantata is. It's an ugly name for a musical. Okay. 0:29:11.010 --> 0:29:14.310 It's just an ugly name. More centered around Christmas. So 0:29:14.370 --> 0:29:17.470 for me, when I started writing, people started to say 0:29:17.490 --> 0:29:20.180 to other people, Have you heard his song? Like people 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:25.020 started to enjoy like locally, like locally, different church groups 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:28.380 or church choirs or or like local mass choirs or 0:29:28.420 --> 0:29:32.110 like community choirs. Those things were big in the hood. 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:34.750 You could have a community choir of different singers from 0:29:34.770 --> 0:29:37.910 different churches and it would make a community choir. And 0:29:37.930 --> 0:29:40.850 that community choir was our team. He knows. it so well. 0:29:40.870 --> 0:29:42.850 He know it so well. And so everybody would pack 0:29:42.890 --> 0:29:46.550 those musicals out. So if you were a young songwriter 0:29:46.850 --> 0:29:49.950 and you coming with an original song that's standing up 0:29:50.010 --> 0:29:52.330 against a jumpy key song that the community choir is 0:29:52.350 --> 0:29:54.730 doing or whatever, and they're like, yo, he got an 0:29:54.810 --> 0:29:57.050 original song that's just as good. And you ain't even 0:29:57.090 --> 0:29:59.710 got to hype yourself up. The other kids, other musicians, 0:29:59.770 --> 0:30:02.790 other people are like, listen to his song. And I 0:30:02.870 --> 0:30:05.870 didn't know the songs were good until other people started 0:30:05.910 --> 0:30:12.170 asking for the song. I wasn't at the crib going, No, no, no, no, no. 0:30:12.290 --> 0:30:15.230 I just, it was just my outlet. And I would 0:30:15.270 --> 0:30:17.650 go to youth choir rehearsal and say, hey, hey guys, 0:30:17.670 --> 0:30:20.040 what y'all think of this? Or some of the songs 0:30:20.620 --> 0:30:23.800 I would just write on the spot at youth choir. 0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:28.610 I would write on the spot during offering time. While 0:30:28.630 --> 0:30:31.360 they're walking around. And I start to bop and I say, Sopranos, 0:30:31.650 --> 0:30:35.440 do the sing this. And they sing it. And it's 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:37.700 like in the turn of two of things, like, oh, 0:30:37.900 --> 0:30:40.820 you know, so, and then that just catches on. And 0:30:40.860 --> 0:30:43.180 people like, yo, did you hear that song? Did you 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:47.700 hear that song? And so songwriting for me, because, you know, 0:30:47.970 --> 0:30:50.230 I don't know if you know this, but I'm not the, 0:30:51.570 --> 0:30:54.650 I'm not, it might've been the weed. I'm not the, 0:30:56.530 --> 0:31:00.260 it might've been the weed that's greening. Singing is not 0:31:00.340 --> 0:31:05.520 my strength. Okay. So it's abnormal for a gospel artist 0:31:05.540 --> 0:31:09.500 to do music and not sing. No, no, no. 0:31:09.640 --> 0:31:15.640 Completely out of the box. 0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:16.020 Yeah. 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.760 You're not supposed to be able to lead the choir 0:31:21.020 --> 0:31:21.540 at all. 0:31:22.180 --> 0:31:26.880 No, because I thought so. I thought you sang at first. Oh. 0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:29.740 I'm talking about before Stomp came out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:32.240 Because then I'm like, wait, wait, he's not singing. He 0:31:32.270 --> 0:31:34.190 don't sing none of these parts? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 0:31:34.210 --> 0:31:35.110 that ain't him on it? 0:31:35.130 --> 0:31:35.910 Yeah. 0:31:35.930 --> 0:31:38.090 Yeah, yeah. Because that was the first video I saw 0:31:38.110 --> 0:31:40.550 of you. Watch this. Here's a part of church culture. 0:31:41.650 --> 0:31:46.090 It would not be abnormal during the altar call, right 0:31:46.110 --> 0:31:49.840 before the sermon, for the pastor to get up with 0:31:49.880 --> 0:31:55.870 the choir. And narrate some of the words of the 0:31:55.970 --> 0:32:01.950 soul during Sunday morning. It was just part of black 0:32:02.030 --> 0:32:05.030 church culture for Reverend E.B. Daniels to get up and, 0:32:05.230 --> 0:32:08.470 you know, it's time to come to Jesus. Come on, choir. Oh, 0:32:08.510 --> 0:32:11.170 come to Jesus. Oh, come to Jesus. Why you have time? 0:32:11.510 --> 0:32:16.130 You know, please make up your mind. That's just part 0:32:16.170 --> 0:32:19.170 of church. That was part of black church culture. So 0:32:19.210 --> 0:32:23.660 when I started to do and started putting together groups, 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:28.680 all I was doing was what we did every Sunday. 0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:31.320 It was not, okay, now how can I get these niggas? 0:32:32.440 --> 0:32:36.490 How can I do something new? I'm just being in church. 0:32:36.990 --> 0:32:39.870 I'm a church kid that's hood. So what do you 0:32:39.910 --> 0:32:43.350 consider yourself in the music space? 0:32:43.770 --> 0:32:43.970 Right? 0:32:44.020 --> 0:32:50.960 Because Singer, songwriter, rapper, preacher? I would consider myself, he's 0:32:50.980 --> 0:32:54.820 just doing the best he can. I'm serious. I really 0:32:54.860 --> 0:32:57.300 don't know what I would consider myself. And I'm okay 0:32:57.320 --> 0:33:00.850 with that. Yeah. I don't know what I am. I 0:33:01.010 --> 0:33:04.870 am as shocked at my career than anyone else is. 0:33:05.250 --> 0:33:11.090 I'm amazed that I'm here. It is amazing. I'm a 0:33:11.170 --> 0:33:15.469 gospel artist that doesn't lead with singing. What started to 0:33:15.510 --> 0:33:19.590 happen was as people started to like these songs. 0:33:19.650 --> 0:33:20.010 The songs. 0:33:20.330 --> 0:33:22.820 It all went back to the songs. It went back 0:33:22.840 --> 0:33:26.300 to the songs. So God gave me this song. I 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:29.820 was on my way to a rehearsal with the choir 0:33:30.220 --> 0:33:33.180 that they wanted me to direct and play. And then see, 0:33:33.220 --> 0:33:36.219 I also would do other little things that would give 0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:39.200 me a little attention to church. I was also a 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:43.240 good choir director. I was a choir director. And I 0:33:43.280 --> 0:33:47.740 would move around. Oh, you would? You move? And dance 0:33:47.860 --> 0:33:51.240 a little bit. Dance? So I was directing choirs and 0:33:51.300 --> 0:33:54.580 moving a little bit. And that also brought local attention 0:33:54.620 --> 0:33:57.280 to me. And then the songs. I wasn't doing it 0:33:57.320 --> 0:34:00.400 trying to get attention. I was a breakdancer. My name 0:34:00.440 --> 0:34:04.470 was Kid Fresh. Yeah. This is the 80s. MC Hurricane, 0:34:04.490 --> 0:34:07.130 Kid Fresh. Man, Kid Fresh. Just tell me where it 0:34:07.170 --> 0:34:10.109 all started. You're not part of this story. This is 0:34:10.150 --> 0:34:14.989 the correlation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was on my 0:34:15.030 --> 0:34:17.940 way to rehearsal, and on my way to this rehearsal, 0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:20.799 I was driving, Tank, and it just popped in my head. 0:34:21.100 --> 0:34:26.560 It popped in my head, King. Someone asked a question. Well, 0:34:26.580 --> 0:34:28.800 I do. And by the time I got to that church, 0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:31.489 I ran to the piano. And I was sitting there, 0:34:31.510 --> 0:34:33.029 I saw one of my homeboys. I was like, yo, man, 0:34:33.050 --> 0:34:34.819 listen to what God just gave me on the way here. 0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:37.779 And I sat down and played it. And it was like, oh, 0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:39.700 that's cool. That's cool. I'm like, yeah, I'm thinking, I 0:34:39.700 --> 0:34:42.160 don't know what I'm going to do with this. And 0:34:42.239 --> 0:34:46.550 so I had that song. I was working with other choirs. 0:34:46.610 --> 0:34:48.930 By this time now, I'm working with the national choirs. 0:34:49.330 --> 0:34:51.970 National choirs that are signing major labels called the Georgia 0:34:52.010 --> 0:34:57.830 Mass Choir. What was your first placement? A song called Joy. Joy. Joy. 0:35:00.520 --> 0:35:00.840 Ooh. 0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:08.469 God's great. Georgia Mass Choir. Down in my soul. That's it. 0:35:09.450 --> 0:35:12.870 That was my song. That's my song. I was 20 0:35:12.870 --> 0:35:15.840 years old. That song. That's a jank, too. That was 0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:20.779 my song. Oh, joy. Joy. I hear you talk. I 0:35:20.920 --> 0:35:21.580 hear you. 0:35:21.780 --> 0:35:22.020 Yeah. 0:35:23.100 --> 0:35:23.259 Oh. 0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:25.700 I think that was me. That's you. That was me. 0:35:26.100 --> 0:35:27.259 That was me. I didn't know that. And how old 0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:31.540 are you at this point? 19, 20. First placement. First placement, 19, 19, 0:35:31.530 --> 0:35:32.320 20 years old. Yeah. 0:35:32.969 --> 0:35:33.169 Yeah. 0:35:33.450 --> 0:35:35.750 How big that record is. And even then, we didn't 0:35:35.790 --> 0:35:38.629 even know the language of placement. You know, like, like, 0:35:38.670 --> 0:35:42.230 like we learned so much from y'all. Like your generation 0:35:42.310 --> 0:35:48.549 came and you brought a, you put the wax on 0:35:48.590 --> 0:35:54.080 the car. Like you brought an elegance to the experience 0:35:54.140 --> 0:35:56.680 of what the business was for people of color that 0:35:56.840 --> 0:36:00.390 in our world, we would just. Wasn't there. Just one 0:36:00.410 --> 0:36:03.529 that we were just doing. I mean, what I do 0:36:03.570 --> 0:36:05.730 love about my brotherhood with Tank is that because he 0:36:05.989 --> 0:36:07.810 knows the aesthetic of where I come from so well. 0:36:07.830 --> 0:36:10.370 For sure. You know, he understands that nothing I'm saying 0:36:10.450 --> 0:36:10.870 is cap. 0:36:11.030 --> 0:36:11.190 Yeah. 0:36:11.430 --> 0:36:15.730 Like, it is really the backwoods, backdoor. You know, it's 0:36:15.930 --> 0:36:17.989 no disrespect, but, you know, it was early on very 0:36:18.010 --> 0:36:21.609 much chitlin' circuit type of understanding and learning. And you 0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:24.980 just do it. Like, I never thought, I never thought, 0:36:25.060 --> 0:36:27.080 I'll never forget when I put this group together called 0:36:27.120 --> 0:36:30.969 The Family. And I'll never forget, in one of the rehearsals, 0:36:31.310 --> 0:36:33.350 one of the tenors came in and said, he said, yo, man, 0:36:33.390 --> 0:36:34.950 this time I'm going to go platinum. I didn't have 0:36:34.989 --> 0:36:36.750 a record deal. I didn't have a record deal. I 0:36:36.770 --> 0:36:39.390 was just trying to put stuff together. And I said, 0:36:39.410 --> 0:36:42.300 I ain't going to go platinum. Gospel don't go platinum. 0:36:42.700 --> 0:36:46.040 I did gospel music because I love Jesus. That is 0:36:46.100 --> 0:36:48.680 the only reason why I did it. I love Jesus. 0:36:48.780 --> 0:36:52.000 I love music. And I was happy. Bro, I was 0:36:52.060 --> 0:36:55.759 so happy. And you're making more than $ 25 at this point, though. Yeah, maybe? 0:36:55.780 --> 0:37:03.000 I'm making about, $ 900 a month. $ 800 a month. As 0:37:03.040 --> 0:37:06.660 a choir director? Or just everything combined? Yeah, everything combined. 0:37:06.700 --> 0:37:08.960 Playing at the church, you know, every now and then, 0:37:09.180 --> 0:37:10.980 you know, doing a little musical here and there. You 0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:13.260 know what I'm saying? You know, I'm paying my child support, 0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:14.860 so child support got to come out of that. Oh, 0:37:14.890 --> 0:37:16.810 you had babies early, too. Yeah, I had a baby. 0:37:16.830 --> 0:37:19.009 I had a son when I was 17. Yeah, yeah. 0:37:19.030 --> 0:37:21.509 So I'm paying child support. I'm trying to pay my 0:37:21.550 --> 0:37:26.500 little rent. 900. Yeah, 900. That was a lot of 0:37:26.540 --> 0:37:29.020 money back then. That was it, King. That's all I had. 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:33.720 And so I didn't even think about success. Success, again, 0:37:33.739 --> 0:37:37.730 in my community, it's not even part of the conversation. 0:37:38.110 --> 0:37:41.430 So you're not even trying to cheat yourself. You don't 0:37:41.450 --> 0:37:43.129 even know what it is. You don't know what it is. 0:37:43.170 --> 0:37:46.230 We're not R & B artists. We're church folk. And 0:37:46.250 --> 0:37:57.859 this is why we do what we do. So the 0:37:57.980 --> 0:38:01.600 songwriting started to lead. And then this deacon at my church, 0:38:01.860 --> 0:38:03.920 he said, you need to do your own album. You're 0:38:03.940 --> 0:38:05.919 writing for all these other choirs. I'm going to give 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:08.780 you $ 5, 000. He gave me five racks. And I recorded 0:38:08.820 --> 0:38:12.030 my first album, the Why We Sing. Why We Sing, 0:38:12.410 --> 0:38:15.250 Silver and Gold, What You Looking For. All of them 0:38:15.290 --> 0:38:17.390 songs were on that very first album. Why We Sing, 0:38:17.670 --> 0:38:20.270 Silver and Gold, He's Able. All that was on the 0:38:20.310 --> 0:38:26.029 first album for five racks. Five, five racks. Mm-hmm. Yep. 0:38:26.510 --> 0:38:28.850 And by the time I did the album, by the 0:38:28.870 --> 0:38:31.440 time I recorded the album, my car got repoed. I 0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:33.420 had to move out of my apartment. I was sleeping 0:38:33.460 --> 0:38:35.900 on floors. And I was trying to get a deal. 0:38:36.380 --> 0:38:39.439 And everywhere I went, nobody liked the music. Nobody liked, like, 0:38:39.520 --> 0:38:42.100 why we sing. Nobody, like, I was trying to get 0:38:42.140 --> 0:38:45.160 a deal everywhere. I went to a music convention in Chicago. 0:38:46.480 --> 0:38:48.160 And then, see, here's the other thing that I had 0:38:48.390 --> 0:38:52.029 over everybody else, too. I was hungry. And I'm still 0:38:52.070 --> 0:38:53.970 like that. Like, you don't know me like he does, King. 0:38:54.430 --> 0:38:55.989 But I'm going to tell you something. I'm a dog. 0:38:56.780 --> 0:39:00.780 I'm a dog. Ain't nobody going to outwork me. You 0:39:00.840 --> 0:39:04.980 will not outwork me. I'm a dog because I'm one 0:39:05.260 --> 0:39:09.190 plate away from Riverside. I'm one plate away from where 0:39:09.210 --> 0:39:12.050 I come from. Every album is my first. I'm 56 0:39:12.050 --> 0:39:16.270 years old, King. Every album is my first album. Every album. 0:39:16.489 --> 0:39:19.950 That's my energy. To this day, you will never beat me. 0:39:19.950 --> 0:39:23.009 I will make you fall asleep in a studio at night. 0:39:23.010 --> 0:39:25.819 They got to pull you out the studio and I'm up. 0:39:25.820 --> 0:39:27.400 And I'm like, and I'm like, get him out here. 0:39:27.420 --> 0:39:31.720 Give me another one. Give me another one. He falls asleep. 0:39:31.940 --> 0:39:34.850 Give me another one. He has to eat. Give me 0:39:34.890 --> 0:39:41.219 another one that doesn't eat. Who doesn't eat? I'm a, Oh, 0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:44.540 I'm telling you. He's trying to eat. Get him out 0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:46.839 of here. Give me one that doesn't eat. Give me 0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:49.529 one that doesn't eat. He's like riding around the city 0:39:49.550 --> 0:39:53.089 with my daddy, man. Come on, man. Oh, man. God 0:39:53.130 --> 0:39:54.830 rest his soul. You get in the car with my daddy, man. 0:39:54.850 --> 0:39:57.980 He won't eat for three days. He's running. He's hustling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:03.380 Can't stop too long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't know 0:40:03.400 --> 0:40:04.799 who to watch. You don't know who to look. You 0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:07.890 know he kids, right? You know he got to eat. 0:40:07.930 --> 0:40:11.410 Give me another one who don't eat. Give me another one. 0:40:11.450 --> 0:40:14.730 Get out of here. Give me another one who doesn't eat. Oh, man. Yeah, man. 0:40:14.989 --> 0:40:17.930 And so I did that album. And I went to 0:40:17.950 --> 0:40:20.750 a music convention. Do you remember the Gospel Music Workshop 0:40:20.790 --> 0:40:24.739 of America? Of course. It was in Chicago, Illinois, January 1991. 0:40:24.719 --> 0:40:28.879 And I had a jam box. I borrowed some money 0:40:28.900 --> 0:40:30.640 to get there. This is when you could fly on 0:40:30.660 --> 0:40:33.900 them passes. You remember the buddy pass? They still got it. 0:40:33.920 --> 0:40:35.799 You just look really rich now. You remember this thing? 0:40:35.820 --> 0:40:37.500 That's called. 0:40:37.540 --> 0:40:42.719 You ain't got to give me that game. Hey, man, listen, man. 0:40:42.780 --> 0:40:45.930 It's called R.B. Money, man. We know you got gospel money. 0:40:45.969 --> 0:40:47.890 You got it. You got it, baby. 0:40:47.930 --> 0:40:52.290 Kirk Franklin does not travel on the buddy pass anymore. 0:40:53.190 --> 0:40:53.950 Okay, so buddy pass. 0:40:53.989 --> 0:40:54.150 Go ahead. 0:40:54.170 --> 0:40:57.410 Finish your story. So I am at the Hilton Hotel. 0:40:58.260 --> 0:41:00.480 A jam box. I'm not staying at Hilton. I'm just 0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:02.339 there because that's where the convention is. I ain't got 0:41:02.360 --> 0:41:04.859 Hilton money. I'm staying at a Days Inn or something 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.460 down the street. I take my jam box because I 0:41:07.500 --> 0:41:09.900 know there are executives and producers that are there for 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:12.780 that convention. I take my jam box and I plug 0:41:12.820 --> 0:41:16.420 it up in the men's public bathroom of the Hilton Hotel. 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:21.180 Producers coming there, they're peeing, they're in the toilet, whatever. 0:41:21.360 --> 0:41:22.980 I'm doing whatever I got to do. When they come 0:41:23.020 --> 0:41:25.400 out the stall, I hit play. Impression play. I did 0:41:25.420 --> 0:41:28.089 that for like three or four days, all day. All day. 0:41:28.170 --> 0:41:30.450 For three or four days. For three or four days. 0:41:30.969 --> 0:41:32.969 Everybody got to go use Verity at some point. Yes, sir. 0:41:33.410 --> 0:41:36.610 Nobody told me to do it. Just instinctively. Instinctively. I 0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:39.180 took my jam box and plugged it into the public 0:41:39.239 --> 0:41:42.040 bathroom of that hotel where all of those producers and 0:41:42.100 --> 0:41:44.859 label heads and everybody was at. And gospel music. Because 0:41:44.900 --> 0:41:48.640 those label banks, Savoy Records, Malachor Records, you know, Sparrow Records, 0:41:48.739 --> 0:41:49.259 all of the people. 0:41:49.280 --> 0:41:49.600 Verity. 0:41:49.620 --> 0:41:51.660 Yeah, yeah, Verity and all that. They were all there. 0:41:52.580 --> 0:41:54.640 You know, it wasn't even Verity back then. And so 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:58.759 I was there. And nobody, nobody wanted to, nobody wanted 0:41:58.780 --> 0:42:01.239 to hear. I had to go to some event one 0:42:01.280 --> 0:42:05.920 day and accompany a pastor in Omaha, Nebraska. And he 0:42:05.940 --> 0:42:07.980 was a, he was a pastor that was from a 0:42:08.020 --> 0:42:12.120 very famous gospel singing family. That event had a special 0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:14.400 guest there. It was an artist by the name of 0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:18.250 Daryl Coley. Hmm. Shoot, I knew who he was. 0:42:18.270 --> 0:42:24.030 I knew who Daryl Coley was. 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:28.140 Daryl Coley. And the pastor said, give Daryl your tape. 0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:31.460 He said, give Daryl your tape. And I was nervous 0:42:31.480 --> 0:42:33.900 to give Daryl my tape. My demo tape had, why 0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:37.319 are we seeing on it? Silver and gold. And he's able. 0:42:37.700 --> 0:42:40.160 That's all I had. And I gave him my tape. 0:42:40.739 --> 0:42:43.660 And I go back to Texas and I'm laying on 0:42:43.700 --> 0:42:47.430 the floor, sleep on the floor. And I gave on 0:42:47.450 --> 0:42:49.410 the tape, I gave the phone number to the people 0:42:49.450 --> 0:42:52.370 house I was staying in. And I got a call 0:42:52.410 --> 0:42:54.890 from a lady that was starting a label. And Darryl 0:42:54.910 --> 0:42:58.510 Coley's wife was the receptionist and was helping the lady. 0:42:58.770 --> 0:43:01.290 Darryl gave the tape to the lady, his wife, who 0:43:01.330 --> 0:43:04.440 was working for this lady named Vicki McLatia. She was 0:43:04.480 --> 0:43:08.320 starting a label. Come on now. Gospel Century. Come on now. 0:43:08.340 --> 0:43:09.220 Wow. Yeah. 0:43:09.500 --> 0:43:12.719 And so she was starting a label. And y'all know 0:43:12.739 --> 0:43:13.420 about Gospel Central? 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:13.620 Yep. 0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:16.460 Are you kidding me? Wow. That's cash money records for 0:43:16.500 --> 0:43:20.410 gospel in my mind. That is not. No, it's not. 0:43:20.489 --> 0:43:25.610 I'm about to do the Birdman hair up. No. Okay. 0:43:26.170 --> 0:43:33.669 I'm on time. It's fine. It's fine. No. Well, just 0:43:33.730 --> 0:43:37.279 ask me questions later. You can ask me questions later. 0:43:37.300 --> 0:43:40.540 I used to work in their studios down in Inglewood. 0:43:40.560 --> 0:43:41.640 Shout out to Miss Gladys. 0:43:42.150 --> 0:43:44.069 Yeah. Yeah, that kind of hurt my feelings when the 0:43:44.090 --> 0:43:45.850 studio got built. I felt like it should have been 0:43:45.870 --> 0:43:46.570 built in Texas. 0:43:47.180 --> 0:43:47.450 Hmm. 0:43:47.950 --> 0:43:51.719 Yeah. Another conversation. Okay. So, if that makes sense, what 0:43:51.739 --> 0:43:55.580 I just said. Yeah. Okay. So, but, but shout out 0:43:55.600 --> 0:44:00.450 to Vicky Mack back then. You know, it wasn't the I, I, 0:44:00.690 --> 0:44:03.669 I was not aware of what publishing was back then, 0:44:04.230 --> 0:44:06.850 you know, and, and, um, you know, she, she didn't 0:44:06.890 --> 0:44:08.830 put a gun to my head or anything, but of course, 0:44:08.850 --> 0:44:11.810 you know, you know, I, that first album, you know, 0:44:11.830 --> 0:44:14.710 I signed over a hundred percent of my publishing, a 0:44:14.770 --> 0:44:18.239 hundred percent. Yeah. I didn't get a hundred percent of 0:44:18.260 --> 0:44:24.560 my publishing until I was 40. Yeah. 40? 40. And 0:44:24.600 --> 0:44:26.120 that deal was done when you were how old? 22. 0:44:26.120 --> 0:44:26.319 22. 0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:33.210 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hungry. You're just hungry. And you don't 0:44:33.250 --> 0:44:35.189 know any better. Right. You didn't even know what publishing was. 0:44:35.210 --> 0:44:37.670 Didn't even know what publishing was. Again, I got 100% 0:44:37.670 --> 0:44:40.110 of my songwriting. Yeah. But I didn't get 100% of 0:44:40.170 --> 0:44:44.420 my publishing. I gave up 100%. I signed up. Once again, 0:44:45.460 --> 0:44:48.399 she didn't put a gun to my head. But that's 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:52.460 what the offer was. And the opportunity. The opportunity. And 0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:56.270 I just wanted to do music. And so she signed me. 0:44:56.680 --> 0:44:59.200 She signed me for $ 7, 000. I paid that deacon back 0:44:59.219 --> 0:45:01.989 his five. I had $ 2, 000. I caught up on a 0:45:02.030 --> 0:45:04.810 couple of bills. That album came out July of 1993. 0:45:04.810 --> 0:45:10.750 And the rest is history. Does the fit come from 0:45:10.790 --> 0:45:13.270 Men's Land that you're on the cover with? 0:45:13.310 --> 0:45:13.489 No. 0:45:13.510 --> 0:45:15.370 This is a very Men's Land fit that you have 0:45:15.469 --> 0:45:16.029 on that cover. 0:45:16.070 --> 0:45:16.210 No, no. 0:45:16.210 --> 0:45:18.470 Let me tell you what happened. I lost all my clothes. 0:45:19.210 --> 0:45:21.629 Everything on that cover was from Ross Dress for Less. 0:45:22.969 --> 0:45:26.069 That whole cover had... That Why We Sing album was 0:45:26.190 --> 0:45:32.290 raw stress for less. Yeah. Broke. Broke. I just wanted 0:45:32.330 --> 0:45:34.890 to do music. Yeah. And I'm going to tell you something, Kings. 0:45:35.370 --> 0:45:38.270 I've never wanted to do any other genre but gospel. 0:45:38.870 --> 0:45:40.609 That's all I ever wanted to do. I don't even 0:45:40.650 --> 0:45:42.609 know why that is when I think about it because 0:45:42.630 --> 0:45:46.550 I was so exposed to mainstream music. Yeah, and opportunities too. 0:45:46.570 --> 0:45:50.480 But I wanted to just do gospel. Have you ever 0:45:50.560 --> 0:45:52.260 even written songs outside of gospel? 0:45:53.100 --> 0:45:53.239 No. 0:45:53.860 --> 0:45:56.680 I've co-written some stuff that I'm asked to jump on. 0:45:56.700 --> 0:45:59.299 You know, like somebody say, you know, like I jumped 0:45:59.320 --> 0:46:02.620 on a Christmas song for Mariah, you know, and, you know, 0:46:02.640 --> 0:46:04.719 you know, you know, kind of stuff like that. But, but, 0:46:04.760 --> 0:46:08.540 but no, I've never been in the trenches. Right. Right. 0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:10.900 So you're going to come to this army money riding camp. 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:15.509 That's crazy. We'll love to. I mean, we'll love to. 0:46:15.510 --> 0:46:18.850 You hear him, I was about to ask. We'll love to. 0:46:19.150 --> 0:46:20.850 And I've never been to, have I been to a 0:46:20.890 --> 0:46:23.420 riding camp? It's just going to be me and Tank 0:46:23.460 --> 0:46:26.859 and you, right? Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay. That's as 0:46:26.900 --> 0:46:29.650 camp as we get. That's camp. I love it. 0:46:29.739 --> 0:46:34.910 Okay, so now you got your deal. Now you've been 0:46:34.950 --> 0:46:39.330 able to make this album. How long does it take 0:46:40.210 --> 0:46:44.830 until you start seeing the reaction to your music on 0:46:44.870 --> 0:46:46.170 a national level? 0:46:46.230 --> 0:46:50.870 It was automatic. That album came out in June, June 0:46:50.890 --> 0:46:54.340 or July of 93. We were at the Stell Awards 0:46:54.440 --> 0:47:00.460 winning song of the year that December. Wow. That was immediate. Yeah. Wow. 0:47:00.480 --> 0:47:02.360 We were singing all of them. Yeah. 0:47:02.640 --> 0:47:04.680 As soon as it dropped, my church was singing all 0:47:04.700 --> 0:47:07.120 of the songs. And Vicky had mainstream distribution. 0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:10.500 Okay. Like she had major distribution. It was distributed through 0:47:10.520 --> 0:47:13.480 a major Christian label called Sparrow Records, who at the 0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:14.930 time had distribution through Capitol. 0:47:15.430 --> 0:47:15.640 Okay. 0:47:15.800 --> 0:47:20.489 The album comes out and my phone is ringing that month. 0:47:21.050 --> 0:47:23.410 So now you're making more than $ 900 now? Not yet 0:47:24.090 --> 0:47:26.930 because I had this issue. I had a big group. 0:47:29.110 --> 0:47:29.330 Yes. 0:47:29.350 --> 0:47:31.330 So is everyone signed to this deal or just you? 0:47:31.570 --> 0:47:35.360 Just me. Okay. But you got to take care of it. 0:47:35.380 --> 0:47:38.279 So people are calling and I take the family and 0:47:38.320 --> 0:47:39.580 I said with the family, I told them, I said, okay, 0:47:39.600 --> 0:47:42.940 we're getting phone calls. And we started out, our asking 0:47:42.980 --> 0:47:47.180 price was $ 1, 500. $ 1, 500 plus travel and everything. And so 0:47:47.540 --> 0:47:51.480 we were getting $ 1, 500. And I basically said with him, 0:47:51.500 --> 0:47:53.980 I said, if we start getting on the road, I'm 0:47:54.000 --> 0:47:56.500 going to have to give up my church job. So 0:47:56.620 --> 0:47:58.030 I'm not going to be able to get the church money. 0:47:58.640 --> 0:48:01.589 And I just want to be upfront, honest about that. 0:48:01.610 --> 0:48:03.130 I want to talk to y'all about that. This is 0:48:03.170 --> 0:48:04.850 how much I make from the church. So I was 0:48:04.910 --> 0:48:09.010 honest about that part. So I'm going to be without 0:48:09.050 --> 0:48:11.690 a lease this much. And so I would take the 0:48:11.750 --> 0:48:14.350 rest of the money and pay the singers in the band. 0:48:14.950 --> 0:48:23.160 How many members? At that time, it was 15. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. 0:48:23.180 --> 0:48:27.800 So 15 plus you is less than, that's about $ 92. 0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:32.950 Let me say this to you. I'm a little embarrassed 0:48:32.989 --> 0:48:36.170 about saying this, but my whole life has been kind 0:48:36.310 --> 0:48:41.330 of been transparent and honest. I didn't start really making 0:48:41.550 --> 0:48:53.060 money Until my late 40s, early 50s. Honestly. That was yesterday. 0:48:53.360 --> 0:48:56.460 Even though we were having records that crossed over, again, 0:48:56.480 --> 0:48:59.839 I wasn't getting all of my publishing. So I wasn't 0:48:59.860 --> 0:49:02.100 getting all my publishing. Even though God was blessing me 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:05.170 with albums that were crossing over, I was still doing 0:49:05.290 --> 0:49:10.310 gospel events. I wasn't doing... You weren't doing major shows. 0:49:10.310 --> 0:49:14.870 I wasn't doing major shows. Yeah. Like, like, like I'm still, 0:49:14.870 --> 0:49:17.600 I'm still a gospel artist. Yeah. Yeah. 0:49:18.080 --> 0:49:20.600 So you're getting paid in food. Cause that's what I 0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:23.219 heard about. I heard, I heard, I heard some time. 0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:25.799 They'd be like, yeah, so we got this basket over here. Well, 0:49:25.820 --> 0:49:26.900 that was the eighties, nineties. 0:49:26.920 --> 0:49:27.040 Yeah. 0:49:27.060 --> 0:49:29.359 That's what it's called. Love offer. But what I'm saying 0:49:29.410 --> 0:49:36.300 is that there were no, We didn't have the live 0:49:36.380 --> 0:49:41.790 nations and the AEGs. There were not real promoters that 0:49:41.989 --> 0:49:47.810 was bringing opportunities like that. Those opportunities were not brought 0:49:47.830 --> 0:49:50.370 to us. You going church to church. I was touring. 0:49:51.130 --> 0:49:54.110 I was not making money that when a tour was over, 0:49:54.130 --> 0:49:57.450 I didn't have to worry about not working. A tour 0:49:57.469 --> 0:49:58.890 was over and I still would have to work. You 0:49:58.910 --> 0:50:01.109 get right back to it, yeah. Like I was getting 0:50:01.170 --> 0:50:04.129 TV opportunities and a lot of those TV opportunities were 0:50:04.150 --> 0:50:07.589 just for me. So I still had singers and musicians 0:50:07.610 --> 0:50:10.220 that I kept on retainers. Like this is my group. 0:50:11.100 --> 0:50:13.860 And if I'm not doing dates, they're not eating. I 0:50:13.880 --> 0:50:16.240 had my singers on a retainer for over a year 0:50:16.719 --> 0:50:18.529 and they didn't do any work. I had a lot 0:50:18.570 --> 0:50:19.800 of people I had to take care of. 0:50:19.969 --> 0:50:20.230 Yeah. 0:50:20.710 --> 0:50:24.509 You know? And they deserve to be taken care of because, again, 0:50:24.770 --> 0:50:28.150 they're singing the songs that I'm writing. But we were 0:50:28.170 --> 0:50:31.860 not making the money because, again, we're not on the Coachellas. 0:50:32.020 --> 0:50:34.700 You know what I mean? We're not doing the big 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:35.540 arena tours. 0:50:35.800 --> 0:50:40.160 But I don't think that only connects to what you 0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:42.520 were doing just because it was gospel either. 0:50:42.540 --> 0:50:45.300 Because have you seen the Earth, Wind & Fire documentary? 0:50:45.460 --> 0:50:45.700 Yeah. 0:50:45.719 --> 0:50:45.799 Yeah. 0:50:46.310 --> 0:50:50.770 Yeah, and when you have that many members, yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. 0:50:50.989 --> 0:50:55.720 It's really tough. Yes Yes, and that was the aesthetic 0:50:56.530 --> 0:50:59.839 of what my career was needed. Yeah And yeah, so, 0:50:59.880 --> 0:51:01.960 you know, like I couldn't just show up by myself, 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:05.560 you know, like people wanted to see this this thing Yeah, 0:51:05.900 --> 0:51:08.540 and so and and that's what people love. They love 0:51:08.580 --> 0:51:11.890 the real singing and the real musicians and And we 0:51:11.910 --> 0:51:17.009 were not able to demand asking price of Blackstreet. Let's 0:51:17.050 --> 0:51:20.310 say we did Essence Festival and Blackstreet did Essence Festival. 0:51:20.910 --> 0:51:23.180 Even though Stomp was a big song, I'm not going 0:51:23.200 --> 0:51:25.420 to get the same amount of money that Blackstreet is getting. 0:51:26.340 --> 0:51:29.500 I'm not getting that. I'm a gospel artist and I 0:51:29.520 --> 0:51:35.330 was still... It was still a ceiling. Yes. Yes. Budget wise. Yes. 0:51:35.450 --> 0:51:36.969 What they even thought that that was worth. 0:51:37.010 --> 0:51:37.450 Right. 0:51:37.510 --> 0:51:40.469 Right. And they kind of told you what they had. Yeah. Yeah. 0:51:40.930 --> 0:51:42.900 And then we didn't have any, uh, what is the 0:51:42.920 --> 0:51:45.279 term of forgetting the term? Uh, what is the term 0:51:45.300 --> 0:51:48.950 that you use? Uh, the, a billboard tickets, uh, when 0:51:48.989 --> 0:51:50.650 you can be able to see what a person's making 0:51:50.670 --> 0:51:54.650 as far as tick, when, when, when, like if you 0:51:54.670 --> 0:51:57.270 want to book an artist, you can see what they're making. Yes. Yes. 0:51:57.290 --> 0:52:00.509 What's it called? Star. Is it post? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, 0:52:00.530 --> 0:52:03.350 you know, we didn't have hard tickets like that because 0:52:03.370 --> 0:52:06.150 we were not doing dates like that. You know, we 0:52:06.170 --> 0:52:09.930 were doing the black promoters. We were doing those things 0:52:09.950 --> 0:52:14.170 that really you couldn't go. Billboard was not. They were 0:52:14.210 --> 0:52:17.730 not accounting to Billboard what that event was that night. 0:52:17.790 --> 0:52:18.050 Right. 0:52:18.210 --> 0:52:19.970 So we were not able to go to an agent 0:52:20.050 --> 0:52:22.710 and say, hey, you know. We do 5,000 tickets a night. 0:52:22.750 --> 0:52:24.050 They're like, where? Where? 0:52:24.190 --> 0:52:24.370 Right. 0:52:24.570 --> 0:52:24.820 Yeah. 0:52:24.860 --> 0:52:25.030 Right. 0:52:25.450 --> 0:52:30.340 So gospel music lived in that space. It lived in 0:52:30.360 --> 0:52:34.360 that space. And so. that has been the history of 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:38.370 the majority of my career. God's been super good to 0:52:38.410 --> 0:52:41.290 me because the songs were so, you know, were being 0:52:41.310 --> 0:52:43.910 such a blessing that what I was receiving on my 0:52:43.950 --> 0:52:46.890 songwriter side of publishing was still a blessing because again, 0:52:46.940 --> 0:52:49.500 I was the only songwriter, you know? And so, and 0:52:49.560 --> 0:52:52.390 I was able to, use that to survive, you know, 0:52:52.530 --> 0:52:54.049 and to be able to be a blessing to my 0:52:54.090 --> 0:52:56.630 family and other people. And then I would have TV 0:52:56.650 --> 0:53:00.210 opportunities and host different TV shows and write for different things. 0:53:00.270 --> 0:53:01.730 And so that was the blessing. 0:53:01.950 --> 0:53:06.170 Were the deals structured the same that you know of, obviously, 0:53:06.590 --> 0:53:10.830 from your side of it, where R & B, pop, whatever, 0:53:10.910 --> 0:53:15.040 rock artists went through, you know, early stages of record 0:53:15.080 --> 0:53:17.219 deals where the point structures were really bad? 0:53:18.090 --> 0:53:18.330 Right. 0:53:18.390 --> 0:53:20.549 So, you know, you assign these deals and, you know. 0:53:20.590 --> 0:53:24.109 You're getting 10, 12 points, maybe 14. 0:53:24.110 --> 0:53:26.469 Yes. They make you feel good if they say, oh, yeah, 0:53:26.489 --> 0:53:28.030 this is an 18-point deal. 0:53:28.250 --> 0:53:28.450 Yeah. 0:53:28.510 --> 0:53:30.670 It was the same thing in the gospel space like that, too. 0:53:30.750 --> 0:53:35.370 I wasn't getting 19. I didn't get 19 points until mid, 0:53:35.410 --> 0:53:39.609 late 40s. Yeah. And the budgets were bad. Yeah. So 0:53:40.050 --> 0:53:42.200 if we're in R & B getting a. 0:53:42.100 --> 0:53:48.010 $ 750 million budget, they're getting about 50, 75,000. 0:53:48.010 --> 0:53:54.130 So it's very much in the same space as jazz. Yeah. 0:53:54.190 --> 0:53:57.609 Very niche. Very niche. Very niche. Very niche. Even after 0:53:57.650 --> 0:54:01.170 you're selling a million records. Yeah. It's because by the 0:54:01.230 --> 0:54:04.009 time they spend money on the videos and flying all 0:54:04.030 --> 0:54:08.160 those people to the Billboard Awards and all of that, 0:54:08.260 --> 0:54:13.140 you know, it's still every album is in stone. Right. 0:54:13.180 --> 0:54:16.000 You know, every album isn't that. Now, mind you, by 0:54:16.020 --> 0:54:18.620 God's grace, the majority of my albums were platinum and gold, 0:54:18.680 --> 0:54:22.529 double platinum, you know, which was a blessing. But it 0:54:22.650 --> 0:54:25.830 takes so much to move that amount of people. It 0:54:25.850 --> 0:54:29.010 takes so much. And then remember, I'm not doing program music. 0:54:29.070 --> 0:54:32.340 I'm bringing in live drummers, live bass players, live, you know. 0:54:32.930 --> 0:54:34.799 And so that takes up a lot of the budget. Wait, 0:54:35.340 --> 0:54:38.000 so that's not even included in the 15 people you said? 0:54:38.020 --> 0:54:41.760 It's even another four or five people for the band? Yes. 0:54:42.430 --> 0:54:47.640 I'm thinking you telling me. Yes, man. Yeah. Then you 0:54:47.660 --> 0:54:49.489 got another five. I ain't going to ever be Kirk Franklin. 0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:52.460 And then there was a time that I was traveling. 0:54:52.739 --> 0:54:54.739 And then there was some, I was traveling with about 0:54:54.780 --> 0:54:59.319 seven musicians, horns and percussion. You remember that? Yeah. Oh, 0:54:59.400 --> 0:55:02.420 I was the earth, wind and fire of gospel. Yes. 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:05.440 I had a whole trough of people, horn players. I 0:55:05.460 --> 0:55:11.239 had three horn players at percussion, two keys, bass, lead drums. 0:55:11.460 --> 0:55:15.790 Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And 15 singers. Oh, yeah. 0:55:16.570 --> 0:55:18.210 And I got to pay the people good. I got 0:55:18.230 --> 0:55:19.689 to pay them good. I got to pay them good. 0:55:19.730 --> 0:55:20.710 They got to be motivated. 0:55:20.750 --> 0:55:22.189 Yeah, man. I got to pay them good. And that's 0:55:22.230 --> 0:55:24.240 why I kept my people for so long. Like, my 0:55:24.280 --> 0:55:26.770 seniors in New Jersey stayed with me for, you know, 10, 15, 0:55:26.770 --> 0:55:28.700 20 years. Oh, yeah. 0:55:29.180 --> 0:55:29.440 Oh, yeah. 0:55:29.460 --> 0:55:32.279 Like, I didn't have a turnover like that. I was 0:55:32.320 --> 0:55:34.100 really trying to make sure people were taken care of good. 0:55:43.489 --> 0:55:46.910 The members, did they understand that there was a record 0:55:46.930 --> 0:55:51.440 side and that there was a live side? Because obviously 0:55:51.900 --> 0:55:55.660 the record side was purely a Kirk Franklin deal. But 0:55:55.820 --> 0:55:58.440 I could see an artist. This can be gospel. This 0:55:58.460 --> 0:56:02.490 can be secular music. I can see an artist feeling like, well, 0:56:04.410 --> 0:56:06.109 I'm on this side too. 0:56:06.310 --> 0:56:09.430 Well, what happened for me is that after Kirk Franklin 0:56:09.450 --> 0:56:11.950 and the family, because I didn't have a group like 0:56:11.989 --> 0:56:15.880 that Like that ended early in my career. Okay. And 0:56:15.900 --> 0:56:18.799 even back then they didn't do the deals like that. 0:56:20.680 --> 0:56:22.799 They didn't even offer the deals like that, even in 0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:29.379 gospel music. So I signed in 92, the last Kirk 0:56:29.420 --> 0:56:32.089 Franklin and the family album was in 95. So it 0:56:32.270 --> 0:56:34.590 was just like about, like I had a group of 0:56:34.630 --> 0:56:38.790 my own for maybe just like about four years, four years. 0:56:39.390 --> 0:56:42.930 And so by the time that ended, everything else, I 0:56:42.969 --> 0:56:47.850 would just hire singers to hire. Work for hire. Like 0:56:47.930 --> 0:56:49.790 a singer before. Now, but what I did is I 0:56:49.830 --> 0:56:52.610 made sure that they were compensated well. So when they 0:56:52.630 --> 0:56:55.450 would come and do the albums, I would compensate them 0:56:55.489 --> 0:56:57.489 very well. And then when we would travel, I would 0:56:57.510 --> 0:57:01.290 try to compensate them well. So God's Property wasn't your group? No, no, no. 0:57:01.530 --> 0:57:03.810 God's Property was a group signed to a production company 0:57:03.850 --> 0:57:07.810 that I started. Vicky offered me a production deal because 0:57:08.310 --> 0:57:10.710 the albums I was doing were so successful. So she 0:57:10.730 --> 0:57:13.520 offered me a production deal. And I signed God's property 0:57:13.880 --> 0:57:16.400 or I brought God's property to the table. It was 0:57:16.400 --> 0:57:18.640 12 songs on the album and I wrote nine of them. 0:57:19.740 --> 0:57:22.680 And so including Stomp and, you know, Love and My 0:57:22.740 --> 0:57:24.800 Life is in Your Hands, all the songs that people, 0:57:24.930 --> 0:57:26.260 you know, can kind of connect. 0:57:26.430 --> 0:57:30.330 How do you go from the first project to Stomp? 0:57:30.930 --> 0:57:33.010 How do you get there as far as like, okay, 0:57:34.250 --> 0:57:36.430 I'm going to take this to a whole nother place. 0:57:36.870 --> 0:57:40.630 Was that the intention was to compete in a popular song? 0:57:41.140 --> 0:57:44.040 Music space? No, no, no, no. What it was, the 0:57:44.080 --> 0:57:46.060 Kurt Franklin and the family, I came in, I was 0:57:46.060 --> 0:57:48.480 23 years old. The majority of the people in the 0:57:48.560 --> 0:57:51.400 family were older than me. They were in their 30s, 0:57:51.780 --> 0:57:55.360 you know, maybe early 40s. And so it was myself 0:57:55.420 --> 0:57:58.020 and maybe one or two, maybe three more people that 0:57:58.040 --> 0:58:00.340 were kind of close to my age. The music I 0:58:00.380 --> 0:58:03.040 did with Kurt Franklin and the family reflected what gospel 0:58:03.060 --> 0:58:06.400 music was. Gospel property, I was attracted to them because 0:58:06.420 --> 0:58:09.100 they were young like me. They were a group already 0:58:09.140 --> 0:58:11.920 themselves in the community. And they were killing. And then 0:58:11.980 --> 0:58:13.790 sometimes I would do dates with the family and I 0:58:13.810 --> 0:58:16.630 would invite God's property because I wanted that young feel. 0:58:16.710 --> 0:58:19.030 Because again, I was a young man. I was young. 0:58:19.090 --> 0:58:22.110 I was young. And not only was I young, remember, 0:58:22.190 --> 0:58:24.000 it was hip hop. It was hip hop music. It 0:58:24.020 --> 0:58:26.700 was mainstream music that was influencing me. Like my very 0:58:26.760 --> 0:58:31.020 first check, songwriter's check, even though it wasn't what it 0:58:31.040 --> 0:58:33.240 should have been, it was still more than what I had. Man, 0:58:33.410 --> 0:58:39.070 I bought a dookie chain, a cougar necklace, you know, 0:58:39.110 --> 0:58:42.370 some polo boots and, you know, old car can I, 0:58:42.570 --> 0:58:45.050 you know, you know, like, you know, like I was, 0:58:45.150 --> 0:58:47.510 I was, I was like, you know, you know, like 0:58:47.660 --> 0:58:50.040 I got 12s in the back of my car, you know, 0:58:50.320 --> 0:58:56.280 you know, I'm riding around. I'm going to church playing Biggie. Like, Oh, Oh, Oh, 0:58:56.440 --> 0:59:00.940 I was, man, please. I, I was influenced by, by Mace. 0:59:01.020 --> 0:59:03.260 I mean, I was playing, I was playing Robert. 0:59:03.980 --> 0:59:04.140 Yeah. 0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:07.800 Because Robert was a genius to me I mean, I 0:59:07.840 --> 0:59:10.860 was listening to Jodeci. I was listening to all of 0:59:10.900 --> 0:59:15.060 his SWV and listening to everything that was moving the needle. 0:59:15.720 --> 0:59:17.700 So when it was time for me to do God's property, 0:59:18.180 --> 0:59:22.460 I took all that energy, all of the young energy. 0:59:23.400 --> 0:59:25.560 But I didn't think it was going to be big. 0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:27.780 I just wanted a chance to have a chance to 0:59:27.800 --> 0:59:31.630 be young. And they were so cold. Man, God's property 0:59:31.670 --> 0:59:35.130 was cold. Bro, let me tell you something. Outside of 0:59:35.170 --> 0:59:37.970 the Walls group, I've never met a group of young 0:59:38.070 --> 0:59:43.470 people that were that gifted. And they were from Fort 0:59:43.510 --> 0:59:47.850 Worth as well? They were from mainly Dallas. Okay. God's property. Man, 0:59:47.890 --> 0:59:53.290 the musicians, the singers, all of them, these were kids 0:59:53.310 --> 0:59:56.820 that went to all-performing art schools. And they were founded 0:59:56.860 --> 0:59:59.470 by this wonderful lady named Linda Sierra. She was a 0:59:59.490 --> 1:00:02.470 school teacher and her kids were in the groups too. And, 1:00:03.130 --> 1:00:05.630 and her kids were, I mean, it was just like, 1:00:05.670 --> 1:00:07.840 you just can't believe that these kids were that good. 1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:11.040 So I was motivated by them. So watching their talent, 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:14.260 I will go home and love a word that comes 1:00:14.340 --> 1:00:17.280 and goes, but the people really answer. Okay. What y'all 1:00:17.300 --> 1:00:19.200 think it is? I'm like, we love that Kirk. What's next? 1:00:19.500 --> 1:00:21.700 You know what I mean? Like they were hungry. I 1:00:21.740 --> 1:00:24.700 was hungry. And it created when that album dropped and 1:00:24.740 --> 1:00:26.710 did what it did. That was the beginning of the 1:00:26.790 --> 1:00:28.230 tension between me and my group. 1:00:28.550 --> 1:00:32.010 I thought by this point, you don't have the family 1:00:32.110 --> 1:00:33.060 anymore as a group. 1:00:33.220 --> 1:00:36.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't do any more albums together. 1:00:36.620 --> 1:00:39.060 But you guys were performing together and that whole thing. Yeah, well, 1:00:39.240 --> 1:00:42.180 but it was starting to get strained. And so the 1:00:42.260 --> 1:00:44.980 next Kirk album I did, I did it with the 1:00:45.040 --> 1:00:48.010 family on it, God's property on it. Because the next 1:00:48.170 --> 1:00:51.410 album I did was the New Nation album. Revolution and 1:00:51.450 --> 1:00:54.470 Lean on Me. And by this time, I'm now hiring singers. 1:00:54.910 --> 1:00:58.260 I'm like picking singers because now I'm exposed. Yeah. See, 1:00:58.360 --> 1:01:02.280 Stomp exposed me. Now I'm like, oh, this is how 1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:05.380 the sausage is made. And I'm up under Jimmy Iovine. 1:01:06.410 --> 1:01:08.670 And Jimmy is taking me up on this wave. And 1:01:08.750 --> 1:01:15.870 it's like, oh. Because Vicky did John McClane. John McClane 1:01:16.190 --> 1:01:19.950 brought me to Jimmy. Because Vicky was looking for a distributor, 1:01:19.990 --> 1:01:23.820 but I was... They were very attracted because, again, I 1:01:23.840 --> 1:01:24.820 was on Gospel Centric. 1:01:24.860 --> 1:01:25.080 Yeah. 1:01:25.180 --> 1:01:27.560 And they wanted to work with me. And Vicky was 1:01:27.620 --> 1:01:29.680 in the space of looking because she, you know, wanted 1:01:29.780 --> 1:01:31.440 to do it with her label. So it was kind 1:01:31.480 --> 1:01:34.980 of like this. Once again, I didn't know my power. 1:01:37.020 --> 1:01:38.900 Because if I would have known my power, what I 1:01:38.920 --> 1:01:41.040 would have done then, and no disrespect to Vicky or 1:01:41.060 --> 1:01:43.050 anybody else, what I would have done then is I 1:01:43.070 --> 1:01:46.930 would have negotiated my own situation. I didn't know. So 1:01:48.770 --> 1:01:51.490 even when you went to Interscope, it wasn't your own situation? No, 1:01:51.590 --> 1:01:56.570 I'm still signed to Vicky. But Jimmy personally took me. Yeah. 1:01:57.050 --> 1:02:00.030 And did, you know, Jimmy and Steve Stout. And they 1:02:00.090 --> 1:02:03.110 took me up under their wing. And Jimmy, Jimmy would 1:02:03.170 --> 1:02:05.550 come to the studio with me. Jimmy was like, I 1:02:05.570 --> 1:02:07.890 want you to fly to Dublin and record with Bono. 1:02:07.910 --> 1:02:09.210 With Bono, his guy. I want you to do this. 1:02:09.230 --> 1:02:11.940 I want you to do this. And like Jimmy opened up, 1:02:12.220 --> 1:02:15.740 he opened up the ceiling for me. Jimmy did. He opened, 1:02:16.000 --> 1:02:18.310 and a gospel artist, I was just, I was exposed 1:02:18.330 --> 1:02:20.170 to so much because I came to him with a 1:02:20.210 --> 1:02:22.270 song that I wrote called Lean On Me. And he 1:02:22.290 --> 1:02:26.550 was like, you wrote that? And for him, he felt like, okay, 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:29.140 this guy's writing is a lot more broader. 1:02:29.380 --> 1:02:29.600 Yeah. 1:02:29.960 --> 1:02:32.320 Because he was so impressed with the writing of Lean 1:02:32.340 --> 1:02:34.360 On Me. I'll never forget. And you can feel this 1:02:34.420 --> 1:02:36.680 as a song. Both of y'all can. But we all 1:02:36.940 --> 1:02:41.590 respected Robert's writing. Right? Absolutely. when I played lean on 1:02:41.610 --> 1:02:43.260 me for him and wanted him to jump on lean 1:02:43.300 --> 1:02:45.860 on me, he said, you wrote this. I said, yeah, 1:02:46.040 --> 1:02:47.540 all he did was this. And it was all that. 1:02:47.580 --> 1:02:55.650 He said, and I knew what that meant. Because again, 1:02:55.950 --> 1:02:59.830 we respected his pen. I believe I could fly. It's like, and, 1:03:00.030 --> 1:03:03.120 and he said, you wrote this. I was like, he said, 1:03:06.380 --> 1:03:08.900 It's all you needed. It's all you needed. 1:03:08.940 --> 1:03:09.200 Yeah. 1:03:09.300 --> 1:03:12.220 That's all you needed. Yeah. But it was Jimmy Iovine 1:03:12.280 --> 1:03:13.160 that really. 1:03:13.780 --> 1:03:18.430 And that's the thing about Jimmy. Jimmy was so important 1:03:18.450 --> 1:03:19.250 to the business. 1:03:19.430 --> 1:03:19.669 Yes. 1:03:19.930 --> 1:03:23.530 Because he had a different and has he, but when 1:03:23.570 --> 1:03:25.890 he was running his label, he had a different understanding 1:03:25.930 --> 1:03:26.870 of writers and producers. 1:03:26.890 --> 1:03:29.340 Yes, he did. He built his, he built his business 1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:33.240 around it. And, and he had a genuine love and 1:03:33.280 --> 1:03:38.320 respect for black culture. Absolutely. He did. He did. He did. 1:03:38.360 --> 1:03:41.050 He respected it. And you could tell by the way 1:03:41.090 --> 1:03:45.030 he treated those around him. He empowered the people of 1:03:45.090 --> 1:03:48.930 color around him. He really did salute to Jimmy Iovine. So, 1:03:49.270 --> 1:03:51.720 but then when, so when the gospel property came out, 1:03:52.220 --> 1:03:56.340 there became this tension and I didn't know what to do. 1:03:56.600 --> 1:03:59.420 And I didn't handle it. Like, you know, at 27 1:03:59.420 --> 1:04:01.520 years old, there were, there were things I should have 1:04:01.560 --> 1:04:04.650 done different. Things I regret that I didn't do. I 1:04:04.670 --> 1:04:07.710 should have been more sensitive to the family. And I 1:04:07.890 --> 1:04:13.310 also shouldn't have been as involved with God's property. Because 1:04:13.330 --> 1:04:16.110 God's property wasn't my group. It was the group of 1:04:16.160 --> 1:04:19.440 this school teacher, this lady. But Jimmy and the powers 1:04:19.460 --> 1:04:22.860 that be were like, we can't sell God's property if 1:04:22.940 --> 1:04:25.260 I don't have you connected to it. I need to 1:04:25.280 --> 1:04:28.140 be able to sell you. I can sell you. Right. Yeah. 1:04:28.460 --> 1:04:31.820 You know? And so it could have been handled different. 1:04:32.290 --> 1:04:35.370 You know, there should have been more sensitivity, you know, 1:04:35.510 --> 1:04:38.710 and it wasn't intentional. It was just big. Stomp became big. 1:04:39.010 --> 1:04:39.230 Yeah. 1:04:39.410 --> 1:04:41.390 And so, you know, you know, happens when something becomes big. 1:04:41.410 --> 1:04:43.710 A lot of times you end up chasing it, you know, 1:04:43.730 --> 1:04:45.910 so you end up playing defense, you know, rather than 1:04:46.010 --> 1:04:47.780 office because you don't know. You didn't know that. 1:04:47.820 --> 1:04:48.010 Yeah. 1:04:48.260 --> 1:04:52.060 Nobody knows to play. Yeah. You know, and it's gospel music. 1:04:52.520 --> 1:04:55.800 So nobody in gospel, like, like there was not even 1:04:55.860 --> 1:04:59.320 a house built for the play because nobody had ever 1:04:59.380 --> 1:05:00.460 been in that house before. 1:05:00.760 --> 1:05:00.860 Yep. 1:05:02.890 --> 1:05:04.530 So you make mistakes as you go. 1:05:05.750 --> 1:05:14.550 But let's talk about Stomp because there began a different 1:05:14.610 --> 1:05:18.090 type of conversation or maybe a conflict in a sense. 1:05:19.230 --> 1:05:22.090 I was watching Salt the other day on the interview. 1:05:22.350 --> 1:05:23.570 Yeah, I saw that. It was good. 1:05:23.590 --> 1:05:26.580 She was talking about, she said something that I didn't know, 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:31.620 that there were versions of the song being played without 1:05:31.660 --> 1:05:32.140 her on it. 1:05:33.020 --> 1:05:36.470 And I didn't know that. And I was like, okay, 1:05:36.490 --> 1:05:37.710 that was the beginning of. 1:05:37.730 --> 1:05:40.150 But her version was the remix though. Anyway, was she 1:05:40.230 --> 1:05:41.670 on the original too? No, no, no, no, no. And 1:05:41.690 --> 1:05:43.130 let's talk about that in a minute when we get 1:05:43.170 --> 1:05:46.300 it to you. Okay. He's talking about the remix. She 1:05:46.340 --> 1:05:51.100 was not on every version of the remix. Oh. Some 1:05:51.160 --> 1:05:54.240 radio stations and some churches, some gospel stations would not 1:05:54.300 --> 1:05:57.220 play the song. Because she was on it. Because she 1:05:57.260 --> 1:05:57.630 was on it. 1:05:57.640 --> 1:06:01.260 Because you went from like gospel music. darling in a 1:06:01.320 --> 1:06:06.350 sense to stop coming out and it being from the traditionalists. 1:06:06.750 --> 1:06:10.860 Yeah. Like, yeah. Who is this? Yeah. 1:06:11.360 --> 1:06:11.560 Yeah. 1:06:11.620 --> 1:06:15.570 That's not, what it's supposed to be. And there began that. 1:06:15.890 --> 1:06:18.110 And nor is that the hymn we know. That ain't 1:06:18.150 --> 1:06:20.590 the hymn. We don't know hymn. You can't go to 1:06:20.690 --> 1:06:25.470 page 76 in your hymnal and find that one. What 1:06:25.530 --> 1:06:29.450 is he doing? And what is that secular tone underneath that? 1:06:29.710 --> 1:06:31.700 And they had no idea that at the core, that 1:06:31.910 --> 1:06:36.640 was who I was. That really was me. I was both. 1:06:37.360 --> 1:06:40.100 I was both. If you had the God's property album, 1:06:40.550 --> 1:06:42.310 it was clear that there were two different versions of 1:06:42.350 --> 1:06:44.930 Stump on the album, right? There was this live version. 1:06:45.410 --> 1:06:48.770 It was a live version. Went to the house, came 1:06:48.890 --> 1:06:50.870 back to rehearsal one night. I was like, yo, I 1:06:50.890 --> 1:06:54.870 got this song. And I taught him the song. And 1:06:54.910 --> 1:06:58.510 the band was so fire. So the original version of 1:06:58.590 --> 1:07:03.410 Stump has a band. Like it's a live instrumentation. It's 1:07:03.470 --> 1:07:08.300 a live song. Jimmy heard the song. And Jimmy said, 1:07:09.310 --> 1:07:11.450 I want to do a remix to this. And I 1:07:11.490 --> 1:07:13.400 think if I do a remix, I think this is 1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:18.660 going to go. He sent me the remix. And I 1:07:18.720 --> 1:07:23.080 thought that it was horrible. Because I'm a real musician. Yeah. 1:07:23.440 --> 1:07:27.340 You've taken the real musicality out of the song. Yeah. 1:07:27.920 --> 1:07:33.580 And it's just a loop. And I'm thinking... The only 1:07:33.620 --> 1:07:35.640 difference between that verse and mine is just, you know, 1:07:35.860 --> 1:07:39.780 it's the band. That's all it is. You know, chorus, vocal, melody, 1:07:39.860 --> 1:07:42.260 you know, same song. You know, it's just, you know, 1:07:42.340 --> 1:07:46.270 he did a remix to it. And I was close 1:07:46.290 --> 1:07:50.010 with Salt because she was starting her faith journey. And so, 1:07:50.090 --> 1:07:52.330 and we were cool. And he asked me, it's like, 1:07:52.350 --> 1:07:54.430 you know, do you think that Salt, you know, jump 1:07:54.490 --> 1:07:58.750 on this? And I called her and she loved it. And, 1:07:58.850 --> 1:08:01.110 you know, and she flew to Dallas to do a verse. 1:08:01.950 --> 1:08:04.300 She flew to Dallas. I played it for God's property. 1:08:04.320 --> 1:08:09.510 I hated it. Nobody liked it. These are real musicians. 1:08:09.530 --> 1:08:13.950 These are real musicians. 1:08:14.410 --> 1:08:18.470 These are real musicians. And you've taken their horns off 1:08:18.510 --> 1:08:22.599 the song. You've taken the lead off the song. Yeah. Yeah. 1:08:22.740 --> 1:08:26.060 And it's like, you know, and Jimmy just kept saying, 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:30.680 trust me. He just kept saying, trust me. Yeah. Jimmy Iovine. 1:08:31.439 --> 1:08:31.620 Ooh. 1:08:32.090 --> 1:08:34.410 Look up Jim. If you don't know who, they'll tell 1:08:34.450 --> 1:08:38.269 you who Jimmy, Jimmy, I think the, the defiant ones, right. 1:08:38.310 --> 1:08:41.860 You know, death row, Eminem, nine inch, nine inch nails. 1:08:42.080 --> 1:08:44.459 Chief Keef. Yeah. 1:08:44.560 --> 1:08:44.760 Yeah. 1:08:44.780 --> 1:08:45.120 Yeah. 1:08:45.160 --> 1:08:45.360 Yeah. 1:08:45.380 --> 1:08:48.349 Yeah. Gwen Stefani. We, you know, you just name it, 1:08:48.600 --> 1:08:51.320 you know, backstreet, whatever you want to name in music 1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:55.290 in the nineties, Jimmy, I mean, right. Tupac, you know, 1:08:56.550 --> 1:09:01.559 and so the song comes out and, and Jimmy was 1:09:01.640 --> 1:09:05.940 right and it just created the uproar it was an 1:09:06.200 --> 1:09:10.320 uproar I mean we got canceled by churches you know 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:13.160 I remember the family my group the family having a 1:09:13.220 --> 1:09:16.300 meeting with me because they were upset because there were 1:09:16.360 --> 1:09:19.950 some people that thought that that was them And they 1:09:19.970 --> 1:09:23.210 didn't want to be affiliated with uproar. They didn't want, 1:09:23.229 --> 1:09:25.629 they didn't want to have anything to do with that uproar. Yeah. 1:09:25.689 --> 1:09:28.070 Like it was, it was a hot mess. Like it 1:09:28.110 --> 1:09:31.710 wasn't good. It wasn't popping apple cider bottles, you know 1:09:31.750 --> 1:09:33.910 what I'm saying? You know, it was like, it was 1:09:33.979 --> 1:09:37.799 a problem. Pastors were getting up in their pulpits and 1:09:37.900 --> 1:09:40.760 saying sermons against it. Yeah. 1:09:40.800 --> 1:09:45.900 Like it was bad. Why do y'all, that's good. Why 1:09:45.920 --> 1:09:50.010 do y'all think, That's such a problem in this space. 1:09:51.170 --> 1:09:55.280 Because it's not like there wasn't anything derogatory on the record. 1:09:55.400 --> 1:09:58.420 It was uplifting. It's happening now with the Glorilla record. 1:09:58.620 --> 1:10:00.820 All over again. Oh, we're going to get there. It's 1:10:00.880 --> 1:10:04.019 the same. Because they thought you was radical. It is 1:10:04.240 --> 1:10:07.889 weird for me. And you know what's funny is, even 1:10:08.070 --> 1:10:11.010 on the original record, I'll never forget the night. Yo, 1:10:11.070 --> 1:10:14.270 it's crazy. I'll never forget the night. Gosh, property was gone. 1:10:14.550 --> 1:10:17.250 They just left the studio and it was just me 1:10:17.450 --> 1:10:19.910 and the engineers and it was me doing my vocal 1:10:20.280 --> 1:10:22.950 and I'll never forget that night going. For those of 1:10:22.990 --> 1:10:25.030 you that think that gospel music is, I'll never forget. 1:10:25.090 --> 1:10:26.890 I was just, I was in the studio by myself 1:10:27.170 --> 1:10:30.139 and this is on the original. So like everything that 1:10:30.150 --> 1:10:33.059 you hear on the stump, everybody loves all of that 1:10:33.100 --> 1:10:36.140 is from the original. Right. They just took the track out. Yeah. 1:10:36.280 --> 1:10:37.780 Just took the track out and put a loop up 1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:41.660 on it. Yeah. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Dun, dun, dun. 1:10:41.900 --> 1:10:44.530 And that was. That's all it took. 1:10:45.290 --> 1:10:47.450 Why do you think it is? I think that the 1:10:47.570 --> 1:10:51.330 church has always been afraid of change. To me, church 1:10:51.370 --> 1:10:55.410 started to feel like this place that was just delegated 1:10:55.689 --> 1:10:58.630 to the four walls. When I went on tour with 1:10:58.710 --> 1:11:03.030 Genuine and Aaliyah, Drew Hill and all of them in 97, 1:11:03.030 --> 1:11:04.990 that was the first time I had really, really been 1:11:05.010 --> 1:11:07.570 outside of the four walls of the church and went 1:11:07.610 --> 1:11:12.580 to see the world. And my first thought after being 1:11:12.660 --> 1:11:15.360 on that tour and being in those rehearsals in L.A. 1:11:15.400 --> 1:11:19.200 and seeing the world, I was like, they lied to me. 1:11:20.570 --> 1:11:25.120 Because everything was said that that's the devil. Everything was, 1:11:25.979 --> 1:11:29.920 all of it. That, oh, he's right there. And I 1:11:29.960 --> 1:11:34.040 was like, I was like, I don't think that that's 1:11:34.100 --> 1:11:38.620 the devil. I think that that's the access to those 1:11:38.700 --> 1:11:44.370 things that can turn you into whatever that is. But 1:11:44.410 --> 1:11:48.300 you don't have to use the access for that. You 1:11:48.320 --> 1:11:50.020 don't have to tap into that. You don't have to 1:11:50.140 --> 1:11:50.580 be that. 1:11:50.840 --> 1:11:54.720 You can use it for his glory. Those lights, those cameras, 1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:57.800 that platform, you can use it for his glory. You 1:11:57.840 --> 1:12:04.670 can tell people, more people about Jesus. You really can. 1:12:04.930 --> 1:12:08.910 To add to that, you can show them something different. 1:12:09.430 --> 1:12:11.639 You can show them the love of Jesus. 1:12:11.860 --> 1:12:14.700 As long as I've been in R & B music 1:12:14.720 --> 1:12:18.670 or doing hip hop or whatever, no matter how much 1:12:18.729 --> 1:12:22.390 of it I am in it, I'm still different. I'm 1:12:22.410 --> 1:12:25.050 still not like everybody else. I still don't operate like 1:12:25.130 --> 1:12:28.349 everybody else. I still don't do business like everybody else. 1:12:28.410 --> 1:12:31.979 I still don't greet everybody like everybody else. Like that's 1:12:32.030 --> 1:12:35.220 just who I am and who I've been blessed to 1:12:35.260 --> 1:12:40.520 be able to maintain. And, and so the church is 1:12:40.660 --> 1:12:42.939 very much. So it's at least the church back then, 1:12:42.979 --> 1:12:44.480 you know, you can speak more of the church. Now 1:12:44.500 --> 1:12:49.139 the church back then was very much like, No, anything 1:12:49.280 --> 1:12:55.070 that remotely connects or sounds like or feels like anything 1:12:55.110 --> 1:12:58.970 that's happening out there isn't church. We had to beg 1:12:59.030 --> 1:13:01.410 when I was a teenager. We had to beg the 1:13:01.470 --> 1:13:04.450 church I played at. We had to beg the pastor 1:13:04.490 --> 1:13:08.370 for us to have drums. Drums were considered in the 1:13:08.830 --> 1:13:11.660 80s in some churches. Drums were considered worldly. 1:13:12.500 --> 1:13:16.650 Drums? Drums. Yes, sir. Drums. I'll never forget. And we 1:13:16.670 --> 1:13:20.390 could only do drums for the annual musicals. And the 1:13:20.430 --> 1:13:22.630 way you played the drums. Stop playing the drums like that. 1:13:22.650 --> 1:13:25.050 Stop doing all that. Yeah. Do all that in here. 1:13:25.390 --> 1:13:25.870 Yeah. 1:13:26.350 --> 1:13:28.310 Like, here's an illustration that I give all the time. Like, 1:13:28.330 --> 1:13:30.910 here's an illustration that I think you'll respect. When you 1:13:30.950 --> 1:13:33.900 see videos of Beyonce when she's a little girl and 1:13:33.910 --> 1:13:35.759 she got her mama's heels on and she got her 1:13:35.800 --> 1:13:39.040 mama's brush and she's killing it, if you notice, nobody 1:13:39.160 --> 1:13:42.770 is discouraging her from what she's doing. They're like, do 1:13:42.810 --> 1:13:46.100 that song, do the spin, do the thing with the 1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:50.020 thing that you were doing. They're encouraging her stardom. They're 1:13:50.040 --> 1:13:53.160 encouraging her. If that was a young girl doing the 1:13:53.200 --> 1:13:56.180 same thing and she was singing a gospel song and 1:13:56.280 --> 1:13:58.260 her mom and daddy saw her, they would tell her 1:13:58.280 --> 1:14:01.580 to stop. Stop. You've been too worldly. It's not about you. 1:14:01.600 --> 1:14:04.940 It's about him. Like her gift and talent would have 1:14:04.979 --> 1:14:08.800 to have more fences around it. She would be told 1:14:08.939 --> 1:14:13.610 more of managing it. making detours of the space so 1:14:13.650 --> 1:14:17.210 that it's not about her. You're in the mirror too much. 1:14:17.250 --> 1:14:20.769 You're being too much like the world. Like one is encouraged, 1:14:21.680 --> 1:14:28.080 one is discouraged. So you don't really know that it's 1:14:28.240 --> 1:14:32.870 okay to want to grow your gift. Growing your gift 1:14:32.950 --> 1:14:36.490 can look like pride. It can look like ego. Yeah. 1:14:36.689 --> 1:14:39.470 You're not supposed to be a star. Yes. God is 1:14:39.510 --> 1:14:42.550 the star. Yes. While at the same time, we will 1:14:42.590 --> 1:14:46.130 celebrate that pastor getting up there, grabbing his ear and 1:14:46.170 --> 1:14:48.309 doing the hoop. So that's literally what I was just 1:14:48.340 --> 1:14:51.400 about to say. Which, which, which for a lot of people, 1:14:51.420 --> 1:14:54.800 that's entertainment. For a lot of our people will say 1:14:54.860 --> 1:14:59.140 he didn't preach until he does that. Until he starts 1:14:59.180 --> 1:15:01.460 hooping like, Oh, pastor preach. Oh, really? What'd he say? 1:15:02.040 --> 1:15:03.490 I don't know, but boy, he showed it. 1:15:04.150 --> 1:15:04.790 Yeah. 1:15:04.850 --> 1:15:07.430 And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and. So, so, so, so, so, so. 1:15:07.650 --> 1:15:10.110 All of that. When he started, he's trying to start 1:15:10.210 --> 1:15:14.800 the car. The hypocrisy was heavy. Now, mind you, I 1:15:14.979 --> 1:15:16.880 love the church and I love God's people. So I'm 1:15:16.900 --> 1:15:19.830 not talking about the church in totality. And I'm not 1:15:19.890 --> 1:15:23.040 saying that it is all hypocrisy. It is all monolithic. 1:15:23.240 --> 1:15:25.799 That is not what I'm saying. But there are pockets 1:15:25.920 --> 1:15:28.519 and spaces of our experience. Like, mind you, I don't 1:15:28.600 --> 1:15:30.770 know him from back then, but our stories are still 1:15:30.790 --> 1:15:33.610 the same. Oh, yeah. They're still the same story. For me... 1:15:34.870 --> 1:15:36.830 Y'all should get together. And I'm like, oh, they grew 1:15:36.850 --> 1:15:37.410 up in church together. 1:15:37.530 --> 1:15:37.729 Yeah. 1:15:38.410 --> 1:15:42.370 But it's literally like that with everybody that grew up 1:15:42.470 --> 1:15:43.570 in church like he did. 1:15:43.729 --> 1:15:45.860 I watched that happen. It is the same thing. And 1:15:45.900 --> 1:15:48.060 we don't even know each other. Yeah. We don't even 1:15:48.180 --> 1:15:50.500 know each other, but we understand the same language. And 1:15:50.660 --> 1:15:53.979 a lot of that affected us and created trauma. It 1:15:54.060 --> 1:15:57.310 created trauma. Because here's the thing. Do you know? Do 1:15:59.010 --> 1:16:02.390 you know? That if I would have been raised in 1:16:02.430 --> 1:16:05.370 an environment that would have encouraged me to know my value, 1:16:05.970 --> 1:16:09.550 my business would have been different. But because wanting to 1:16:09.630 --> 1:16:11.450 be about that was looked so much as pride, it 1:16:11.479 --> 1:16:15.480 ain't about you. You know, you need to be thankful 1:16:15.500 --> 1:16:18.260 for whatever the Lord give you. That's the mentality. If 1:16:18.560 --> 1:16:22.280 that mentality going to take care of your business, it 1:16:22.320 --> 1:16:26.230 wasn't encouraged. That was pride. They use that to take 1:16:26.270 --> 1:16:29.630 advantage of you. Yeah. And we don't even know each 1:16:29.670 --> 1:16:32.210 other that long. I mean, we know each other as adults, 1:16:32.430 --> 1:16:35.950 but back then we didn't. And our stories are the same. Yeah, 1:16:35.970 --> 1:16:39.230 for sure. And so that is the reason why you 1:16:39.330 --> 1:16:41.910 see a lot of people will say, you know, what 1:16:41.939 --> 1:16:44.260 the future of gospel music is and all that. The 1:16:44.300 --> 1:16:47.080 problem is a lot of these young people, they refuse 1:16:47.120 --> 1:16:49.340 to go through that. They're not going through that no more. 1:16:50.020 --> 1:16:52.140 They're not going to even tolerate that. A lot of 1:16:52.180 --> 1:16:56.320 what we tolerated, A lot of younger generation, please, they're 1:16:56.340 --> 1:16:59.580 not going to allow you to dictate to them what 1:16:59.620 --> 1:17:02.720 is professional and what is godly. You can miss them 1:17:02.740 --> 1:17:05.040 with all that. Where with my generation, you had no 1:17:05.080 --> 1:17:07.380 other option. You just fell in line. Because everything else 1:17:07.420 --> 1:17:11.880 was looked at as ungodly. Scripture was weaponized against you. 1:17:12.820 --> 1:17:15.360 And it was used to keep you in a certain 1:17:15.460 --> 1:17:18.700 place so that you'd have any other idea that something 1:17:18.740 --> 1:17:23.260 better was out there. So the gospel property, stomp. All 1:17:23.300 --> 1:17:26.140 of that became more of a burden than what people realized. 1:17:26.240 --> 1:17:29.979 It was hard. It was difficult. And it was painful. 1:17:31.280 --> 1:17:34.639 But at the same time, you know, you're having Hispanic 1:17:34.660 --> 1:17:36.400 kids walking up to you saying, yo, man, we were 1:17:36.420 --> 1:17:38.099 in the car about to do Pills. And that song 1:17:38.140 --> 1:17:39.780 came on the radio. And I want you to know, man, 1:17:39.800 --> 1:17:41.969 that we threw the Pills out, man. And you know what, man, 1:17:41.979 --> 1:17:44.150 that I became a Christian on that song. Like, man, 1:17:44.370 --> 1:17:47.849 all the stories that I would get. Oh, bro. I'm 1:17:47.870 --> 1:17:50.630 talking about non-African American because the song was so big, 1:17:50.650 --> 1:17:53.570 you know, first, first song played on MTV and all 1:17:53.610 --> 1:17:55.830 of that, you know? And so we were like, we 1:17:55.850 --> 1:17:58.679 were just getting these stories of kids that were like 1:17:59.189 --> 1:18:02.200 changing their lives. And then the next song on the 1:18:02.240 --> 1:18:04.040 next album that I did that had some of the 1:18:04.100 --> 1:18:05.340 impact was Revolution. 1:18:05.680 --> 1:18:05.900 Yeah. 1:18:06.180 --> 1:18:09.530 Yeah. Dark Child. Dark Rodney. And Rodney came up to me. 1:18:09.540 --> 1:18:11.780 He was working on the first Brandy album. He just 1:18:11.800 --> 1:18:13.930 finished working with Mary and, And he was like, yo, man, 1:18:13.950 --> 1:18:16.030 I'm a church kid and I would love to work 1:18:16.050 --> 1:18:18.150 with you. And I had this song that I wrote 1:18:19.110 --> 1:18:21.410 and I played it for Jimmy. And Jimmy was like, 1:18:21.630 --> 1:18:24.290 I like that idea. And so I finally went back 1:18:24.350 --> 1:18:26.570 to Rodney. I was like, I think I got the song. 1:18:26.650 --> 1:18:28.309 The song I played in the demo of the song. 1:18:28.670 --> 1:18:32.189 And he was like, I got it. Got it. Is 1:18:32.210 --> 1:18:35.710 that the only record that Rodney ever rapped on too? Probably. 1:18:35.729 --> 1:18:38.410 I don't think I've heard Rodney on another record. He talk. 1:18:38.490 --> 1:18:40.280 He'll do like a... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like he's chanting, 1:18:40.320 --> 1:18:43.360 but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that right there. 1:18:43.380 --> 1:18:48.070 It was interesting about Revolution. 1:18:48.650 --> 1:18:53.680 Revolution became... bigger as the years went. I don't know 1:18:53.740 --> 1:18:56.910 if that makes sense. To me, I think... And Melodies 1:18:56.930 --> 1:18:59.250 from Heaven. I believe that. 1:18:59.030 --> 1:19:02.430 The performance of those records, like hearing those records on 1:19:02.510 --> 1:19:04.670 record is one thing, but when you come to a 1:19:04.710 --> 1:19:07.880 city and perform those records, it gets different. 1:19:09.030 --> 1:19:12.250 Yeah, like Melodies from Heaven was not Melodies from Heaven 1:19:12.270 --> 1:19:12.870 when it came out. 1:19:12.910 --> 1:19:16.070 Melodies from Heaven is a song that can last 35 1:19:16.070 --> 1:19:18.170 to 45 minutes. 1:19:20.430 --> 1:19:26.490 That's his my, my, my. Easy. No, it is crazy 1:19:26.530 --> 1:19:29.580 because it came out in 94. It was not that. 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:32.519 I'm telling you, I'm living it. Melodies from Heaven was 1:19:32.620 --> 1:19:34.059 not that back then. 1:19:34.240 --> 1:19:39.780 It's the experience of your music that gives it. the 1:19:39.920 --> 1:19:43.120 elevation and the longevity that it has. 1:19:43.200 --> 1:19:45.820 And I'm grateful. It's hit for sure. 1:19:46.400 --> 1:19:50.900 But when you experience the music, when you actually get 1:19:50.960 --> 1:19:52.660 to have church to the music. 1:19:52.700 --> 1:19:53.000 Yeah. 1:19:54.060 --> 1:19:55.580 Wow. Thank you. 1:20:04.750 --> 1:20:08.750 Your performance is just a whole different space, bro. Like, 1:20:09.070 --> 1:20:10.830 you know, I told you before we started filming, I'm like, 1:20:11.050 --> 1:20:14.400 in my opinion, you are the James Brown of gospel. 1:20:16.300 --> 1:20:19.300 Thank you. Down to the outfits. You know what I mean? Because, 1:20:19.320 --> 1:20:21.140 you know, you're going to put your tights on. You're 1:20:21.160 --> 1:20:24.150 going to hear me? Wow. And your boots. You know, 1:20:24.470 --> 1:20:26.690 you're going to do what you're going to do, man. 1:20:26.790 --> 1:20:33.490 My pants as tight as James's pants work. I hate you. Yeah. 1:20:33.710 --> 1:20:36.370 I think you popped up at either it was a 1:20:36.410 --> 1:20:38.189 Soul Train Award or a BET Award. 1:20:38.229 --> 1:20:41.229 I said, yeah, you're going to pop out of there. 1:20:41.350 --> 1:20:41.490 Wow. 1:20:41.570 --> 1:20:44.230 Wow. I said, man, don't do that move again. 1:20:44.310 --> 1:20:47.320 Wow. That man just finished doing deadlifts. 1:20:47.620 --> 1:20:52.380 That's seven. That man right there. Quads are us. You 1:20:52.400 --> 1:20:56.380 see them. You see them. You see them. You see them. 1:20:57.020 --> 1:20:59.349 I ain't lift all these weights for nothing. Come on now. 1:20:59.360 --> 1:21:01.290 You see the Lord blessing me. Come on now. Stop 1:21:01.310 --> 1:21:04.130 playing with me. I'm sorry. That is so good. How 1:21:04.229 --> 1:21:07.849 is that in church? I don't know. They mad. I 1:21:08.050 --> 1:21:10.769 don't know how that happened. Like when I started to 1:21:10.870 --> 1:21:16.200 hear comments and responses about whatever you would define when 1:21:16.240 --> 1:21:20.020 I'm up doing whatever it is I'm doing. Because, again, 1:21:20.380 --> 1:21:24.010 I'm not up there singing. During the Icon Award speech 1:21:24.070 --> 1:21:26.510 last year at the BET Awards, there was part of 1:21:26.530 --> 1:21:29.070 my speech that said about, you know it's God when 1:21:29.130 --> 1:21:33.110 it don't make sense. Nothing about my career makes sense. 1:21:34.430 --> 1:21:38.410 I'm a gospel artist who don't sing. They get on stage. 1:21:38.510 --> 1:21:41.260 I'm not Chris Brown. And whatever it is, I do sing. 1:21:43.810 --> 1:21:46.439 It seemed to connect. Like you said, you're responding to 1:21:46.479 --> 1:21:49.620 the live performance. Other people comment to live performances. And 1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:52.660 it's like, it don't make no sense, though. It's like, 1:21:53.040 --> 1:21:56.740 if you ever need to know if God is real, 1:21:57.160 --> 1:22:00.929 my life is a billboard that will say to you 1:22:01.189 --> 1:22:04.429 every time, there has to be a God. Because nothing 1:22:04.510 --> 1:22:08.870 about my career makes sense. Nothing. I've been doing music 1:22:08.890 --> 1:22:12.809 for 30 years and barely sing a note. What is that? 1:22:14.390 --> 1:22:17.450 It's got to be God. It can't be. Ain't nobody 1:22:17.490 --> 1:22:20.570 that good. Ain't nobody that. I'm sorry, bro. Ain't nobody 1:22:20.610 --> 1:22:24.290 that good. Ain't ain't nobody that good. So my life 1:22:24.510 --> 1:22:28.230 does not make sense outside of the reality of the 1:22:28.270 --> 1:22:33.509 grace of God. Period. Argue with your mama. There's nothing 1:22:33.550 --> 1:22:35.730 anybody can say. Well, you know what, sir? No, it ain't. 1:22:35.970 --> 1:22:37.990 There's not a metric you can put next to my 1:22:38.030 --> 1:22:41.009 name that makes sense for my career, except for God's grace. 1:22:41.250 --> 1:22:42.850 When you say my name, don't put a metric. Just 1:22:42.890 --> 1:22:46.050 put God's grace. Yeah. That's it. Facts. And let's go 1:22:46.070 --> 1:22:47.430 get something to eat. That's it. 1:22:47.710 --> 1:22:50.910 Do you preach your health journey? Do you add that 1:22:50.990 --> 1:22:53.300 to your conversation or your ministry? 1:22:53.439 --> 1:22:54.490 Give me more. What do you mean? 1:22:54.610 --> 1:22:58.210 Just in terms of like, because... Of course, it's for you. 1:22:58.270 --> 1:23:00.009 It's personal, like your health journey. 1:23:00.350 --> 1:23:05.210 Oh, health. You being buff now, man. Yeah. It's awesome. See, 1:23:05.250 --> 1:23:07.710 he was trying to— You know what? Tank's been on TV. 1:23:07.810 --> 1:23:10.720 I did an interview with Men's Magazine, so I'm just 1:23:10.729 --> 1:23:12.900 trying to— No, no, no. 1:23:12.910 --> 1:23:16.760 Tank just came on Broadway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, man, listen. Nigga, 1:23:16.780 --> 1:23:17.820 you buff now, right? 1:23:17.939 --> 1:23:18.080 Mm-hmm. 1:23:18.120 --> 1:23:21.820 So are you preaching about being buff? And I got 1:23:21.860 --> 1:23:23.240 a tank up under this, too. I feel like I'm 1:23:23.260 --> 1:23:26.689 going to be on TV. He going to really say you... 1:23:26.870 --> 1:23:29.290 He going to say you bar for bar, you take 1:23:29.350 --> 1:23:34.320 a jacket off, man. Listen, I anticipated... I anticipated the 1:23:34.340 --> 1:23:38.920 tank top. I anticipated. Last time he saw me, we 1:23:38.960 --> 1:23:39.720 was in Dallas. 1:23:39.740 --> 1:23:42.330 Last time he was in Dallas, he wanted... He said... 1:23:42.920 --> 1:23:43.540 Let's do 50. 1:23:43.540 --> 1:23:46.780 I was like, who are you talking to? Every time 1:23:46.800 --> 1:23:50.670 we see each other, we always do 50. He about 1:23:50.689 --> 1:23:52.849 that life. You want us to do it? Listen, y'all 1:23:52.870 --> 1:23:55.350 can do what y'all want to. I got on Bottega. 1:23:55.430 --> 1:24:01.190 I'm not doing no nothing. I'm going to take this off, though. Okay. Okay. Well, 1:24:01.210 --> 1:24:04.220 you jumped on the couch on another show. So, you know, 1:24:04.400 --> 1:24:05.880 I mean. What am I doing, bro? I don't know. 1:24:05.920 --> 1:24:09.960 You're being Kirk Franklin, man. And you're bringing people to 1:24:10.000 --> 1:24:11.040 the message. Wow. 1:24:11.400 --> 1:24:13.540 And this is from somebody outside of the church, bro. 1:24:13.560 --> 1:24:15.000 Like I did not grow up in church. 1:24:15.020 --> 1:24:18.840 Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So for me, when I see 1:24:18.900 --> 1:24:24.099 someone like yourself, I'm intrigued. Wow. I'm like, oh, this 1:24:24.160 --> 1:24:28.670 is special. This is different. He has a calling. Wow. 1:24:29.770 --> 1:24:32.350 Not the same, Carlin, as this. It's the same thing. And, 1:24:32.470 --> 1:24:34.150 you know, this could be blasphemous to say this. 1:24:34.210 --> 1:24:36.990 But it's the same thing as when I saw a 1:24:37.050 --> 1:24:41.270 Bobby Smyrna in his first label meeting jump on the table. 1:24:42.090 --> 1:24:44.150 That's entertainment for me. Mm-hmm. 1:24:44.630 --> 1:24:48.650 Because aside of all of the artsy part of this 1:24:48.689 --> 1:24:49.490 whole thing we do. 1:24:49.770 --> 1:24:49.940 Mm-hmm. 1:24:50.340 --> 1:24:55.260 This is entertainment. And if it's not entertaining, especially in 1:24:55.300 --> 1:24:59.099 this new day and age, I'm swiping. I'm to whatever's 1:24:59.500 --> 1:25:04.469 entertaining to me. So if there's nothing in the gospel 1:25:04.510 --> 1:25:09.110 space that is entertainment to me, because let's just be real. 1:25:09.229 --> 1:25:12.650 And I'm a singer. I've sang my whole life. It's 1:25:12.670 --> 1:25:14.470 only so many times I can hear the rainbow in 1:25:14.490 --> 1:25:18.300 the room. That's cool. I like how you put that stope. 1:25:18.380 --> 1:25:22.420 I like that. That's just me, though. Yeah, but that's good, though. 1:25:22.439 --> 1:25:24.960 That's good. I like that. I'm about to use that. 1:25:24.979 --> 1:25:27.880 I want to be entertained. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. 1:25:28.500 --> 1:25:28.680 Yeah. 1:25:29.060 --> 1:25:32.140 So that's why even when I go back and I say, okay, listen, 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:34.500 this brother is James Brown. This brother is Michael Jackson. 1:25:34.520 --> 1:25:38.370 This brother is Chris Brown. This is Bobby Brown. You 1:25:38.430 --> 1:25:39.930 fit into those spaces for me. 1:25:39.930 --> 1:25:41.389 Those conversations. Yeah. 1:25:41.490 --> 1:25:44.830 And those conversations. Even though you're like, oh, yeah, you know, 1:25:45.470 --> 1:25:52.910 my dancing, man. Ain't no colder dancer in gospel. I 1:25:52.930 --> 1:25:54.650 don't think they want the fame. 1:25:54.770 --> 1:25:58.990 It's the oxymoron for me. It's the oxy for me, though. 1:25:59.720 --> 1:26:02.260 But it shouldn't be, though. It shouldn't be. To me, 1:26:02.280 --> 1:26:04.580 it all comes... It's all together. 1:26:04.660 --> 1:26:06.920 And like I said, this is from the outside looking in. 1:26:07.060 --> 1:26:07.280 Well. 1:26:08.380 --> 1:26:11.700 As a young man at my time, my teenage years, 1:26:11.760 --> 1:26:15.389 when you popped up on that screen, and I wasn't thinking. 1:26:15.930 --> 1:26:17.090 twice about going to church. 1:26:17.350 --> 1:26:18.450 Yeah. Yeah. 1:26:19.070 --> 1:26:22.270 But then seeing you, seeing God's property, seeing the family, 1:26:22.290 --> 1:26:25.250 seeing new nation, I'm like, okay. 1:26:25.270 --> 1:26:25.470 Wow. 1:26:25.990 --> 1:26:28.889 Wow. Maybe I can go. Maybe I can go. Maybe, 1:26:29.090 --> 1:26:31.300 and maybe I can go and have a good time. 1:26:31.380 --> 1:26:31.740 Wow. 1:26:33.729 --> 1:26:36.470 While also getting the good work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. 1:26:36.490 --> 1:26:38.630 You know, I've been hanging out with Tank. You know 1:26:38.670 --> 1:26:42.050 what I mean? You know, you feel me? You know, 1:26:42.070 --> 1:26:44.550 we said church without the R. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You 1:26:44.570 --> 1:26:47.570 know what I mean? I love it. I love it. 1:26:47.870 --> 1:26:52.180 I love it. You are very important. Extremely. You are 1:26:52.240 --> 1:26:53.220 very important, bro. 1:26:53.380 --> 1:26:56.800 And as you're telling this story and you're saying, and 1:26:56.840 --> 1:27:00.700 Tank said this actually, how you were the darling of 1:27:00.740 --> 1:27:02.820 this space until. 1:27:04.310 --> 1:27:08.380 But I believe you became the darling of the music 1:27:08.439 --> 1:27:13.099 space overall. Well, because we're all looking for something. We're 1:27:13.340 --> 1:27:18.080 all looking for that feeling. We're all looking for the savior. 1:27:18.500 --> 1:27:21.360 Yeah. Yeah. Even the ones of us that don't know 1:27:21.420 --> 1:27:23.860 we are on the secular side. 1:27:23.880 --> 1:27:24.260 Yeah. 1:27:24.280 --> 1:27:24.639 Yeah. Yeah. 1:27:24.660 --> 1:27:30.040 That's why I think you've been embraced so heavily from, um, 1:27:30.420 --> 1:27:32.620 the worldly music people. 1:27:32.680 --> 1:27:34.360 And it's because, it's because. 1:27:34.060 --> 1:27:36.580 Like people like me from church to come from a 1:27:36.600 --> 1:27:38.830 real place and don't forget that part of it. 1:27:38.970 --> 1:27:39.150 Yeah. 1:27:39.770 --> 1:27:45.610 Like you represent what a real person looks like that 1:27:45.670 --> 1:27:48.390 is saved and called and anointed and all these things, 1:27:49.250 --> 1:27:53.030 but you're still a real human being at the end 1:27:53.070 --> 1:27:55.610 of the day, when we're having that conversation, like we're 1:27:55.630 --> 1:28:00.849 still having real conversations and you still, Like, you're still 1:28:01.090 --> 1:28:04.510 meeting us where we're at. Like, you're still locked in 1:28:04.570 --> 1:28:07.610 with everything that we're going through and everything that we see. 1:28:07.680 --> 1:28:11.360 And you can actually have those conversations. You're not out 1:28:11.400 --> 1:28:15.000 of touch with anything. And it's not like you're trying 1:28:15.020 --> 1:28:17.760 to be anything. It's just what you are. You are us. 1:28:18.500 --> 1:28:22.680 You just have a calling. And you've never lost that, 1:28:23.560 --> 1:28:30.219 which is why us, we, we need you. You are important, period. 1:28:30.530 --> 1:28:35.420 You're our lifeline, brother. Because we get to see the real, man. 1:28:36.860 --> 1:28:38.000 The real. I can only hear it. 1:28:40.300 --> 1:28:47.439 From a person who understands it and acknowledges it the 1:28:47.479 --> 1:28:53.000 way I would. From the streets I've been through. From 1:28:53.040 --> 1:28:54.400 the obstacles I've seen. 1:28:56.110 --> 1:28:58.309 You know what I mean? Yes, sir. You've never been 1:28:58.470 --> 1:29:03.189 holier than thou. No. That's tough, brother. 1:29:03.470 --> 1:29:03.670 Yeah. 1:29:04.430 --> 1:29:07.160 And that's what makes guys like myself not want to 1:29:07.180 --> 1:29:09.920 go when it's holier than thou and it's so much 1:29:10.020 --> 1:29:12.980 judgment and it's not come as you are. 1:29:16.460 --> 1:29:17.580 It's like the gym, right? 1:29:17.600 --> 1:29:21.080 It's like people always say, like, how did you get 1:29:21.100 --> 1:29:24.630 your diet a certain way? Or how did you stop 1:29:24.650 --> 1:29:26.750 doing this or stop doing that? You know, as we 1:29:26.810 --> 1:29:29.470 speak to relative come as you are, I'm like, once 1:29:29.510 --> 1:29:33.830 you get in there, and you start to see results. 1:29:33.930 --> 1:29:38.630 Yes, sir. That'll make you change. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 1:29:38.770 --> 1:29:45.110 Because you don't want to go back. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Same. Same. Same. 1:29:45.350 --> 1:29:48.139 Same with the walk. Yeah. Same with the walk. Exactly. 1:29:48.270 --> 1:29:51.020 Can't nobody tell me Jesus ain't real. I've seen too 1:29:51.160 --> 1:29:54.160 much for me to ever go back to ever believing 1:29:54.420 --> 1:29:58.900 that I'm here on my own. Again, please, please put 1:29:58.939 --> 1:30:02.880 next to my name God's grace. So thank y'all for that. 1:30:03.100 --> 1:30:07.290 Thank you. When you see serving things, what is your 1:30:07.370 --> 1:30:12.710 take on a Drew ski doing a skit like that? 1:30:13.770 --> 1:30:16.460 You know, he called me in and, um, he invited 1:30:16.479 --> 1:30:18.860 me to be a part of it. And, uh, I 1:30:18.900 --> 1:30:22.050 had an event out of town, uh, And I wasn't 1:30:22.070 --> 1:30:23.710 able to be there, but we talked to him and 1:30:23.750 --> 1:30:26.710 we had a good conversation. And I think that if 1:30:26.770 --> 1:30:30.269 we have a problem with Drewski, then let's stop giving 1:30:30.310 --> 1:30:36.230 him the material. Jolly. 1:30:36.720 --> 1:30:41.740 Then there's that. 1:30:41.939 --> 1:30:49.479 Next question. It's a whole lot of material out there. Oh, 1:30:49.520 --> 1:30:51.920 my God. It's a whole lot of material out there. 1:30:52.900 --> 1:30:53.640 Next question. 1:30:55.860 --> 1:31:02.090 Okay, my next question is, gospel music, or not even 1:31:02.110 --> 1:31:07.610 just gospel music, the church and music overall. I am 1:31:07.650 --> 1:31:13.080 a firm believer that since the church is not as 1:31:13.220 --> 1:31:16.339 prevalent as it was in our community growing up, for 1:31:16.600 --> 1:31:20.519 the kids now, I believe that it's affecting the music. 1:31:20.840 --> 1:31:22.780 I believe that it's affecting. 1:31:23.640 --> 1:31:27.559 The lifeline of the music and the soul. 1:31:27.800 --> 1:31:33.370 No doubt. When churches got rid of their choirs, I 1:31:33.390 --> 1:31:36.410 don't disrespect worship teams and all of that, but when 1:31:36.430 --> 1:31:39.990 you substitute the Hammond organ for an acoustic guitar, you 1:31:40.030 --> 1:31:45.150 start a journey of telling another story. You're telling now 1:31:45.260 --> 1:31:48.940 someone else's story. There is a story that is uniquely ours. 1:31:49.340 --> 1:31:51.480 I'll give you a perfect example. I was on tour 1:31:51.720 --> 1:31:55.479 with a group called Maverick City. Maverick City was occupying 1:31:55.520 --> 1:32:00.100 the space of white contemporary Christian music and worship music 1:32:00.520 --> 1:32:03.820 that was really growing in the white evangelical space. And 1:32:03.840 --> 1:32:07.450 it was also... grooming at a generation of younger black 1:32:07.490 --> 1:32:11.070 people that were not as rooted in the history of 1:32:11.210 --> 1:32:13.870 black gospel music. And so it was not as important 1:32:13.930 --> 1:32:16.720 to them. It's because every generation, you know, you start 1:32:16.760 --> 1:32:20.520 to move away from those origins. Right. And, and that's 1:32:20.540 --> 1:32:23.340 just the reality of just evolution. Right. I was on 1:32:23.360 --> 1:32:27.889 tour with Maverick city and the audience was, was about 50, 50, 60, 40, 1:32:27.890 --> 1:32:32.170 you know, 60. Sometimes some cities, 50% white, 50% black, 1:32:32.350 --> 1:32:35.450 you know, Hispanic. And then some, it was 60, 40, 1:32:35.450 --> 1:32:38.490 you know, you know, maybe Midwest, it could be, you know, 1:32:38.490 --> 1:32:41.450 65 to 70%, you know, not African-American. And there's a 1:32:41.510 --> 1:32:43.179 song that I wrote on one of my albums called 1:32:43.220 --> 1:32:46.820 Imagine Me. A song called Imagine, imagine me loving what 1:32:46.920 --> 1:32:49.640 I see. And I remember where I was when God 1:32:49.660 --> 1:32:50.840 gave me a song. I remember I was going to 1:32:50.860 --> 1:32:52.800 a school, God gave me a song. And every night 1:32:52.880 --> 1:32:54.980 when I would do that song, I looked in the 1:32:55.180 --> 1:32:57.849 audience and the response of the audience was new for me. 1:32:58.110 --> 1:33:00.689 It was a more reflective response. kind of like a 1:33:00.750 --> 1:33:03.260 smile on their face. It kind of just, you know, 1:33:03.380 --> 1:33:06.300 thinking like it, the look on their face looked like 1:33:06.400 --> 1:33:10.939 sunshine and flowers and, and, and lilies. And I was like, 1:33:10.960 --> 1:33:14.200 you had the Catalina wine mixer. And I was like, that's, 1:33:14.350 --> 1:33:16.970 that's an interesting perspective in the middle of the tour. 1:33:17.450 --> 1:33:19.170 In the middle of the tour, there was a date 1:33:19.210 --> 1:33:21.150 that we had booked a year ago that we had 1:33:21.189 --> 1:33:23.030 to stop the tour for, for me to go do. 1:33:23.350 --> 1:33:28.640 And it was the 100th, year anniversary of Zeta Phi Beta, 1:33:29.189 --> 1:33:34.880 which is a black sorority, beautiful sisters. And they invited 1:33:34.900 --> 1:33:38.220 me to be their musical guest. Thousands and thousands and 1:33:38.260 --> 1:33:42.599 thousands of just beautiful black sisters, right? I do the song, 1:33:42.660 --> 1:33:48.620 Imagine Me. The tears and the emotion that I saw 1:33:48.640 --> 1:33:54.080 in the audience was I'll never forget that juxtaposition in 1:33:54.140 --> 1:33:57.170 my mind of what I remember seeing the night before 1:33:58.750 --> 1:34:01.970 when the audience was not all an audience and I was, 1:34:02.090 --> 1:34:04.820 you know, used to sing in front of. And the 1:34:05.020 --> 1:34:07.220 audience that I was singing in front of every night, 1:34:07.780 --> 1:34:09.620 most of my life, I'm looking at these sisters with 1:34:09.720 --> 1:34:14.889 tears and weeping and, you know, and the emotion versus 1:34:14.900 --> 1:34:17.970 the smile on the face and the lilies. And I 1:34:17.990 --> 1:34:20.610 remember saying to myself, this is where I was when 1:34:20.670 --> 1:34:22.950 I wrote that song. I was here with the tears. 1:34:23.050 --> 1:34:25.870 I wasn't thinking of the lilies. And the lesson that 1:34:25.890 --> 1:34:31.620 I walked away from is that the reason why most 1:34:31.800 --> 1:34:37.200 African-Americans and non-African-Americans worship God differently is that the reason 1:34:37.300 --> 1:34:42.050 why the response of the audiences were different is that 1:34:42.189 --> 1:34:45.630 most black people have not had the luxury of lifting 1:34:45.650 --> 1:34:48.930 their hands because they've been too busy wiping their eyes. 1:34:50.410 --> 1:34:53.530 We've been too busy wiping tears. Yeah. The pain of life. 1:34:54.140 --> 1:34:55.849 So we don't always have, we have not always had 1:34:55.900 --> 1:34:59.120 the luxury of having the smile on our face. And 1:34:59.160 --> 1:35:01.860 I think that when you take that experience out of 1:35:01.900 --> 1:35:07.019 gospel music, there's a soul that you rob. Because most 1:35:07.040 --> 1:35:10.640 of our experiences during this socioeconomic disparity, what we're going 1:35:10.660 --> 1:35:13.479 through in this country right now, we're not feeling it 1:35:13.520 --> 1:35:16.820 the same. White Christians and black Christians are not feeling 1:35:17.160 --> 1:35:19.849 the pain in this country the same. And a lot 1:35:19.890 --> 1:35:22.809 of times we're not always talking about the same experience 1:35:22.850 --> 1:35:26.000 of God. It's because your experience of God and my 1:35:26.020 --> 1:35:29.260 experience of God in America, it ain't the same. It 1:35:29.300 --> 1:35:33.219 ain't always the same. So our music right now, because 1:35:33.380 --> 1:35:37.179 the black church, a lot of the black churches assimilated 1:35:37.240 --> 1:35:42.700 to music and sound that was not originated from our experience. 1:35:43.400 --> 1:35:45.070 And mind you, I'm not saying that we all got 1:35:45.090 --> 1:35:46.550 to be going through and we all got to be, 1:35:46.550 --> 1:35:48.770 you know, nobody knows the trouble I've seen and weighed 1:35:48.790 --> 1:35:50.650 in the water. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking 1:35:50.670 --> 1:35:55.479 about a soul. There's a soul of our experience that 1:35:55.500 --> 1:35:59.110 when you rob, Everything that has to do with where 1:35:59.150 --> 1:36:01.330 we come from, what we're going through right now and 1:36:01.350 --> 1:36:03.610 where we're trying to go, then there is going to 1:36:03.670 --> 1:36:08.320 be an emotional deficit in the music that is not transferable. 1:36:08.380 --> 1:36:10.260 And you see it in R & B, you see 1:36:10.360 --> 1:36:13.100 it in black music, because the black church has always 1:36:13.160 --> 1:36:16.240 been the shedding place. It's been the shedding place for 1:36:16.260 --> 1:36:18.849 these musicians, for these singers, for these artists. That's why 1:36:18.930 --> 1:36:20.910 gospel music and R & B music in the 90s 1:36:21.170 --> 1:36:24.690 were so cohesive. Mostly people just took off the choir robe. Yes. 1:36:25.310 --> 1:36:27.769 You know, I'll never forget the story of Hezekiah Walker 1:36:27.810 --> 1:36:30.170 talking about that. What was the lead singer from Guy? 1:36:30.330 --> 1:36:33.840 Aaron Hall. Aaron Hall used to sing with Hezekiah Walker. 1:36:34.030 --> 1:36:35.590 He said he was in rehearsal one day, looked up, 1:36:35.600 --> 1:36:37.440 so people came to rehearsal, him singing. Next day, he 1:36:37.479 --> 1:36:40.580 was gone. You know what I mean? Like, that's how 1:36:40.680 --> 1:36:43.720 close the relationship was from gospel to R & B 1:36:43.760 --> 1:36:47.580 back then. Now it's a mile away because we're not 1:36:47.660 --> 1:36:52.890 even doing black music in black churches anymore. We're not 1:36:52.950 --> 1:36:56.429 doing it. The cards in worship and praise music, there's 1:36:56.470 --> 1:37:00.990 some beautiful songs in worship and praise music. Beautiful, beautiful writing, 1:37:01.290 --> 1:37:04.060 beautiful songs. So this is not a slight against that. 1:37:04.439 --> 1:37:07.880 I'm saying I hate, I hate when I got to 1:37:07.960 --> 1:37:10.220 lay down my black card to be a part of 1:37:10.260 --> 1:37:12.900 the story. That's all I'm saying. I don't want to 1:37:12.960 --> 1:37:15.110 lay down my black experience to be part of the 1:37:15.150 --> 1:37:19.990 Jesus van. Because my Jesus ain't responding to me the 1:37:20.030 --> 1:37:22.270 same way your Jesus responding to you over there. My 1:37:22.310 --> 1:37:24.750 people's bank account don't look like your people's bank account. 1:37:25.410 --> 1:37:28.590 My church got problems that that church over here don't have. 1:37:29.390 --> 1:37:31.179 So our stories are not going to be the same. 1:37:31.420 --> 1:37:33.760 But if we just doing the music like everything is 1:37:33.800 --> 1:37:37.860 happening good, it ain't. Everything ain't happening good in America. 1:37:39.360 --> 1:37:42.700 And I think it's an insult when the Jesus I 1:37:42.760 --> 1:37:44.670 serve can't speak to the pain that I go through. 1:37:46.410 --> 1:37:49.070 And again, it's not a slight, but when you take 1:37:49.150 --> 1:37:52.180 black choirs away and you take all the chords and 1:37:52.200 --> 1:37:55.420 the emotions that can't nobody do but us. See, here's 1:37:55.460 --> 1:37:58.090 the thing. You took stuff away that can't nobody do 1:37:58.130 --> 1:38:02.320 but us. Right. You're not going to get that same 1:38:02.380 --> 1:38:04.820 emotion in some of these songs. You want to hear it. 1:38:04.880 --> 1:38:06.740 And I'm supposed to, well, some of that was complicated, 1:38:06.780 --> 1:38:08.860 but show, listen, man, I'm not going to let you 1:38:09.000 --> 1:38:13.820 down the journey of the black experience and the talent. 1:38:14.120 --> 1:38:16.720 I'm not going to water down the giftedness of black 1:38:16.780 --> 1:38:19.020 folk just because it don't fit within the bucket that 1:38:19.060 --> 1:38:21.970 you have over here. No, there's a genius that we 1:38:22.010 --> 1:38:25.050 have that we should not have to minimize just to 1:38:25.130 --> 1:38:27.330 fit in to what we think is godly. 1:38:28.290 --> 1:38:28.490 Hmm. 1:38:29.830 --> 1:38:32.420 Oh, I'm not going to let you put that narrative 1:38:32.560 --> 1:38:36.420 on my people because my people are living. Listen, you 1:38:36.439 --> 1:38:39.180 got a group of people that a book was weaponized 1:38:39.260 --> 1:38:44.030 against them. Yeah. This book was weaponized against them and 1:38:44.490 --> 1:38:47.470 it was used to keep them in a deficit, but 1:38:47.530 --> 1:38:50.710 still somehow they heard the story of the gospel and 1:38:50.770 --> 1:38:53.590 still believe. I think that is the biggest testimony of 1:38:53.610 --> 1:38:56.230 the reality of the gospel, because how can somebody take 1:38:56.270 --> 1:38:58.430 what was a weapon against him? And now it's become 1:38:58.450 --> 1:39:02.530 their deliverance. That is the greatest story of the reality 1:39:02.570 --> 1:39:05.750 of the gospel ever. When black people can still serve Jesus, 1:39:05.950 --> 1:39:09.340 when you use Jesus to keep us oppressed. And so 1:39:09.460 --> 1:39:12.500 now I got to take my musical expression of that 1:39:12.540 --> 1:39:15.920 journey and I got to, no disrespect, whitewash it just 1:39:15.939 --> 1:39:16.660 to be accepted. 1:39:16.960 --> 1:39:19.519 No, give me them cards. Give me all them cards. 1:39:19.550 --> 1:39:21.710 Give me all them riffs. Give me all that soul. 1:39:21.750 --> 1:39:23.870 Give me all that stank. Give me all of that 1:39:24.270 --> 1:39:28.370 because that's my story. And I'm not going to minimize 1:39:28.450 --> 1:39:32.710 my story just because it's not accepted in communities now 1:39:33.010 --> 1:39:36.410 that's told our people, well, this is what real worship is. 1:39:36.430 --> 1:39:37.130 Hmm. 1:39:37.840 --> 1:39:40.600 Who told you that lie? You think your great grandmama 1:39:40.640 --> 1:39:45.130 wasn't worshiping God? You don't think she was worshiping God 1:39:45.170 --> 1:39:48.170 when she said nobody knows the trouble I've seen? Then 1:39:48.210 --> 1:39:50.170 what are the prayers that got you through so you 1:39:50.210 --> 1:39:51.790 can go to the same schools that they go through 1:39:51.810 --> 1:39:54.160 and now you're going to assimilate to the way that 1:39:54.180 --> 1:39:58.400 they worship? It's cool. I love it. But don't forget 1:39:58.560 --> 1:40:02.950 your story. I do Negro gospel. I do nigga gospel. 1:40:03.729 --> 1:40:06.040 I do nigga gospel. That's the kind of gospel. I 1:40:06.060 --> 1:40:09.740 do nigga, not nigga. I do nigga gospel. That's what 1:40:09.800 --> 1:40:13.580 I do. I'm never changing. I'm black. And I talk 1:40:13.600 --> 1:40:15.590 about my love for Jesus Christ and the way that 1:40:15.610 --> 1:40:28.690 it was given to me as a black man. Next question. Listen, 1:40:28.729 --> 1:40:30.650 we know you came to hang out with us. Yes, sir. 1:40:30.729 --> 1:40:34.290 We know that part. But you also have a new project. 1:40:34.410 --> 1:40:37.130 I got a new project. I am. And it's full 1:40:37.170 --> 1:40:41.570 of black gossip. I am what I am. You kicked 1:40:41.610 --> 1:40:43.230 this thing off. Kicked it off. 1:40:43.850 --> 1:40:49.580 They know. I know other people may not know. But 1:40:49.620 --> 1:40:54.720 you know I know. And we talked about this. Yes, 1:40:55.520 --> 1:40:56.900 there is an original sample. 1:40:57.740 --> 1:41:03.680 Yes. 1976. But the streets. The streets. The streets. Shorty low. 1:41:03.700 --> 1:41:07.580 Shorty low. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. R.I.P. 1:41:08.380 --> 1:41:12.840 What made you say, I'm going to flip. 1:41:13.660 --> 1:41:17.250 They know. Here's the story. You know, this is my 1:41:17.310 --> 1:41:17.630 14th album. 1:41:19.120 --> 1:41:19.200 Wow. 1:41:19.240 --> 1:41:24.070 Congratulations, brother. Congratulations. I mean, I've been around since 1932, right? 1:41:24.450 --> 1:41:27.010 You know? Yeah, because there's some rumors going about you 1:41:27.689 --> 1:41:34.920 and Shirley. You know what we... Oh, Shirley. Me and Shirley, see? 1:41:34.960 --> 1:41:39.479 The date back in the day. That's my girl. There's 1:41:39.500 --> 1:41:41.740 some rumors. Tie up them sandals for her. You know 1:41:41.780 --> 1:41:44.420 what I'm saying? Shout out to Mama Shirley. She'll not 1:41:44.439 --> 1:41:48.599 be missing. Love Mama Shirley. Legend. But as we started 1:41:48.620 --> 1:41:52.139 in 2025, thinking about what the next album needed to be, 1:41:52.979 --> 1:41:56.790 Ron Hill, who's my business partner and manager, a talent. 1:41:56.850 --> 1:42:00.410 I mean, he's young, but he's a genius. He came 1:42:00.450 --> 1:42:04.090 in as an intern with me. And, bro, my continued career... 1:42:04.110 --> 1:42:06.350 It's due to this young man's genius. He's brilliant. He's 1:42:06.390 --> 1:42:10.070 a businessman, right? And he's a music man, you know, 1:42:10.229 --> 1:42:13.070 like the old school music guy. He's an old school, 1:42:13.090 --> 1:42:15.980 you know, he don't play or nothing like that. You know, 1:42:16.220 --> 1:42:18.900 his ear, he's just got that golden ear. You know, 1:42:19.160 --> 1:42:24.240 he's got that Clive Davis, Barry Quincy ear, right? He said, 1:42:24.280 --> 1:42:26.870 he said, yo, man, See if God will give you 1:42:26.890 --> 1:42:29.060 a song that's kind of like an anthem or something. 1:42:29.100 --> 1:42:30.920 He's like, man, you know, I want to hear like 1:42:30.960 --> 1:42:33.400 an anthem, something that people can chant. See if God 1:42:33.420 --> 1:42:35.640 will loan you something like that. And so, you know, 1:42:35.660 --> 1:42:37.460 because I always phrase it like that. You know, I 1:42:37.500 --> 1:42:39.439 always phrase it like God's going to loan me a song. 1:42:39.479 --> 1:42:42.970 You know, God loaned me a song. Every time I 1:42:42.979 --> 1:42:45.830 start working on something, I'm always like, Pops, will you 1:42:45.850 --> 1:42:47.849 loan me something? You know what I mean? You know, 1:42:48.130 --> 1:42:49.650 it's because I'm a manager of it. I'm not the 1:42:49.810 --> 1:42:51.850 owner of it. He's the owner of it, right? And 1:42:51.910 --> 1:42:55.340 I always write music at the piano. Like, I don't 1:42:55.420 --> 1:42:59.900 write to beats because beats dictate what the song is 1:42:59.939 --> 1:43:02.920 going to say. And in gospel music, people don't come 1:43:02.979 --> 1:43:05.820 to gospel music for production. People come to gospel music 1:43:05.840 --> 1:43:08.220 for what you're saying, how it makes you feel. So 1:43:08.260 --> 1:43:11.520 I've always made a commitment that I never write to 1:43:11.560 --> 1:43:14.360 a beat because I don't want the beat to dictate 1:43:14.660 --> 1:43:17.030 the lyrics and the emotion and the energy of the song. 1:43:17.530 --> 1:43:19.990 I write to a piano. I sit down at the piano, 1:43:20.330 --> 1:43:22.670 you know, paper, pen, you know, and I just write. 1:43:22.890 --> 1:43:25.920 I never write to production. So I wrote the song, 1:43:26.560 --> 1:43:29.660 you know, had singers come in. I taught it to 1:43:29.680 --> 1:43:32.540 them around the piano. Like every time I'm demoing a song, 1:43:32.760 --> 1:43:34.850 I'll have one soprano, one alto, one tenor. I don't 1:43:34.870 --> 1:43:36.530 bring the old squad in because I don't know if 1:43:36.550 --> 1:43:38.370 the song is good or not yet. You know what 1:43:38.689 --> 1:43:40.690 I mean? I'll demo it so we can see if 1:43:40.729 --> 1:43:43.860 we like it. So I demoed the song. Ron heard it. 1:43:43.860 --> 1:43:45.519 So he's like, yo man, I like, like the song 1:43:45.560 --> 1:43:47.720 had a bridge and everything to it. Like it, like 1:43:47.760 --> 1:43:50.100 it was song. And, and he was like, you know what? 1:43:50.280 --> 1:43:51.939 We don't even need that bridge, bro. He said, it's 1:43:52.000 --> 1:43:54.689 a good going, going, going. And he was like, yo man, 1:43:55.050 --> 1:43:57.050 this is kind of nice. I like this. And then 1:43:57.090 --> 1:44:00.120 he said, I think this song could be dope with 1:44:00.140 --> 1:44:02.680 a sample. I mean, I don't know if we were 1:44:02.700 --> 1:44:05.060 going to put a band on it. Because again, it 1:44:05.479 --> 1:44:07.840 was his idea of, yo, man, see if God could 1:44:07.860 --> 1:44:10.059 give you like an anthem, some kind of chanting song. 1:44:10.080 --> 1:44:12.280 So when God gave me the idea, when God gave 1:44:12.300 --> 1:44:14.620 me the song, I'm like, okay, well, what do we 1:44:14.660 --> 1:44:16.280 do with it now? What do you want to do? 1:44:16.280 --> 1:44:18.620 You want to put a band on it? Do we 1:44:18.689 --> 1:44:22.200 produce it out? Put 808s on it, whatever. And it's like, yo, man, 1:44:22.290 --> 1:44:25.010 I think it'll be dope with a sample. A couple 1:44:25.030 --> 1:44:26.590 of months later, he came back. He said, yo, man, 1:44:26.650 --> 1:44:29.430 I think I found the sample. He said, I think 1:44:29.470 --> 1:44:32.890 it got simple. So he made me leave the room. 1:44:32.910 --> 1:44:37.920 He pulled up the old record. And my guy, Max, 1:44:37.939 --> 1:44:40.580 that I do all my production with him and Max 1:44:40.620 --> 1:44:43.860 made me leave. They made me leave the room. And 1:44:43.930 --> 1:44:50.110 that evening I came back and they was like, tell 1:44:50.130 --> 1:44:54.090 me what you think it is. And they hit it. 1:44:54.500 --> 1:44:57.040 That's how it happened. Did you get that stump feeling? 1:44:57.560 --> 1:45:00.969 I was puzzled at first. I was puzzled. I ain't 1:45:01.010 --> 1:45:03.730 gonna lie, I was puzzled too. Were you puzzled? What? 1:45:03.910 --> 1:45:06.530 Because obviously I got an advanced copy and I'm like, 1:45:07.510 --> 1:45:08.630 no way. 1:45:10.050 --> 1:45:10.930 Oh, he's the king. 1:45:11.210 --> 1:45:15.140 I was all in first listen. 1:45:15.380 --> 1:45:17.740 First listen. No, man, but I have to give credit 1:45:17.800 --> 1:45:20.679 to the people around me because I have great people 1:45:20.720 --> 1:45:22.660 around me you know like even with Stump I gotta 1:45:22.680 --> 1:45:25.220 give shout out to Jimmy Iovine because you know Jimmy 1:45:25.260 --> 1:45:27.120 Iovine was like it's a great song he said but 1:45:27.140 --> 1:45:29.240 I think if I put a you know you know 1:45:29.360 --> 1:45:31.620 if I do a remix you know and then you 1:45:31.640 --> 1:45:33.120 know like I said I gotta give shout out to 1:45:33.160 --> 1:45:35.620 Ron Hill cause it was Ron that said yo man 1:45:35.939 --> 1:45:37.640 I think this would be dope with a sample and 1:45:37.700 --> 1:45:40.049 I listen to the people around me every time I 1:45:40.120 --> 1:45:43.130 try something I wanna know what does the room think 1:45:43.490 --> 1:45:46.790 right it's because the room is the answer to the song. 1:45:47.470 --> 1:45:52.010 That record's a smash That record is a smash. And 1:45:52.590 --> 1:45:55.330 putting Gloria, putting Gloria, hallelujah on the record. 1:45:55.350 --> 1:45:58.100 Gloria, hallelujah. Gloria, hallelujah. 1:45:58.530 --> 1:46:01.640 Like, it just all made sense. Yeah, I can't wait 1:46:01.660 --> 1:46:04.720 to see y'all perform that record. It has to happen. 1:46:05.200 --> 1:46:08.140 Wow. Thank y'all. Thank y'all. Yeah, I mean, I've been 1:46:08.180 --> 1:46:11.100 humbled by the response. And again, you know, there's the 1:46:11.160 --> 1:46:15.660 same reaction for some of those that, you know. Still? Still. 1:46:15.680 --> 1:46:15.780 Yeah. 1:46:17.189 --> 1:46:21.690 Still. To this day? Yeah. To this day. Come on, man. 1:46:21.710 --> 1:46:24.910 Saying that I'm demonic. Oh, yeah. Saying that I'm the devil, 1:46:24.950 --> 1:46:27.550 that I'm leading people wrong. They got all the scriptures 1:46:27.590 --> 1:46:27.870 to come. 1:46:27.990 --> 1:46:28.870 Oh, yes. 1:46:29.729 --> 1:46:34.009 Oh, yes. You can't even pray with us. What? Oh. 1:46:35.850 --> 1:46:38.430 You saw that? Did you see that? I'm sorry. If 1:46:38.510 --> 1:46:40.370 I still go on stage at the R & B 1:46:40.410 --> 1:46:46.410 tour in Dallas. Okay. Look at Kirk. Praying with them? 1:46:49.189 --> 1:46:54.550 praying with him, Chris, Mario, and Usher. Come on. No, no, no. Absolutely. 1:46:54.570 --> 1:46:55.150 No way. 1:46:55.310 --> 1:47:02.260 Absolutely. They're making pages. They're doing think pieces on Kirk 1:47:02.320 --> 1:47:03.260 Franklin praying. 1:47:03.280 --> 1:47:05.760 Well, I'm going to need Kirk Franklin to pray for 1:47:05.960 --> 1:47:09.000 us here today because I know. 1:47:08.780 --> 1:47:12.290 I need it. Come on, man. And I receive it. 1:47:14.350 --> 1:47:20.110 You know? No, bro. I don't get it. I really 1:47:20.310 --> 1:47:21.050 don't get it. 1:47:21.410 --> 1:47:23.170 I used to think I could explain it, but the 1:47:23.310 --> 1:47:25.380 only way I can truly say what it is is 1:47:25.410 --> 1:47:27.839 that I always call it universal balance. 1:47:29.460 --> 1:47:31.540 There's got to be something to combat. It can't be 1:47:31.720 --> 1:47:32.200 all good. 1:47:32.600 --> 1:47:33.100 Yeah. 1:47:33.680 --> 1:47:37.320 It just can't. Because then it would just be too easy. 1:47:38.140 --> 1:47:38.960 No layups in this. 1:47:39.140 --> 1:47:41.890 It's good. It'll fight your way through the paint. And 1:47:41.900 --> 1:47:45.309 play through the contact. That's good. That's just what it is. 1:47:45.530 --> 1:47:49.770 That's good, King. That's good. I'm very grateful for the song. 1:47:49.830 --> 1:47:52.790 I'm very grateful that God gave me the idea of 1:47:52.970 --> 1:47:55.430 something that seems to really be connected with people. I 1:47:56.210 --> 1:47:58.639 made up my mind this time. Finally, it's my time. 1:47:58.660 --> 1:48:00.820 You know what I mean? Hands in the air. Going 1:48:00.840 --> 1:48:02.880 through the fire this time. Thought I was going to 1:48:02.939 --> 1:48:05.780 lose my mind. But the devil is alive. You know 1:48:05.800 --> 1:48:08.540 what I'm saying? God got us right this time. We're 1:48:08.560 --> 1:48:13.760 going to be fine. Imagine that. Imagine opposing that. I couldn't. 1:48:13.840 --> 1:48:16.979 Imagine that. I couldn't. We're going to be fine this time. 1:48:17.510 --> 1:48:17.810 Yeah. 1:48:18.689 --> 1:48:18.950 Yeah. 1:48:19.020 --> 1:48:21.960 Your head got to be different to be mad at that. 1:48:22.400 --> 1:48:26.740 And he own all his publishing now, too. This time. 1:48:27.520 --> 1:48:32.960 We're going to be fine this time. Wow. Wow. I 1:48:33.060 --> 1:48:36.479 pay attention. This time. Wow. And I just want to 1:48:36.500 --> 1:48:40.000 make sure, once again, just for clarity, I celebrate. All 1:48:40.020 --> 1:48:43.920 styles of music that point people to the Lord. Worship 1:48:43.960 --> 1:48:47.820 music is beautiful. Some of the best songs, incredible songs. 1:48:48.550 --> 1:48:52.429 I just don't want us to put down our experience 1:48:52.910 --> 1:48:55.790 and make it feel like God does not welcome ours 1:48:55.870 --> 1:48:59.750 as well. That they both can come to the throne. 1:49:00.290 --> 1:49:03.019 That they both can be received at the ear of 1:49:03.060 --> 1:49:06.510 the Lord. That I don't have to leave mine. And 1:49:06.630 --> 1:49:09.050 yours is the only right way to get there. That's 1:49:09.150 --> 1:49:13.250 all I'm saying. The black experience and the black faith 1:49:13.310 --> 1:49:19.380 experience matters in America. Yeah. Amen. Amen. 1:49:20.120 --> 1:49:24.179 Brother Kirk, we have a very special few segments. 1:49:24.640 --> 1:49:25.099 I can't wait. 1:49:25.200 --> 1:49:27.240 You know, that the people would love to get some 1:49:27.300 --> 1:49:29.759 information from you. And since we from the old church, 1:49:30.220 --> 1:49:33.320 you know, back when they used to stomp their feet. 1:49:33.420 --> 1:49:33.780 Yeah. 1:49:34.400 --> 1:49:36.500 And clap their hands. Yes, sir. Okay? You see what 1:49:36.540 --> 1:49:38.900 I'm saying? We're going to do this the old. Okay. 1:49:38.930 --> 1:49:40.229 Tell me how to do it, guys. We're going to 1:49:40.270 --> 1:49:45.430 do this. Guys. Guys. Did you just say guys? Guys. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. 1:49:45.810 --> 1:49:50.090 We're going to do this the acapella way. You got FOMO. FOMO. Hey, guys. 1:49:50.110 --> 1:49:51.550 Show me how to do it, guys. We're going to 1:49:51.590 --> 1:49:54.380 stomp and clap this thing through. Okay. All right? Come on. 1:49:54.479 --> 1:50:07.979 Come on. Yeah. Top five. Come on. Oh, you're top five. 1:50:08.780 --> 1:50:09.019 Yeah. 1:50:10.080 --> 1:50:18.190 Top five. Your top five. R & B singers. 1:50:18.439 --> 1:50:21.290 R & B songs. 1:50:22.090 --> 1:50:26.849 We got to know. Before you go. Here on this show. 1:50:27.150 --> 1:50:29.389 Everybody wants to know. Your top five. Yes. 1:50:33.689 --> 1:50:36.849 We'll start with the male. Okay. 1:50:36.890 --> 1:50:59.950 Okay. Top five female. Top five R & B singers. 1:51:00.070 --> 1:51:03.410 Whatever you want to do. You're Kirk Franklin. Male or female. 1:51:03.510 --> 1:51:05.150 All of them. Come on. Whatever you want to do. 1:51:05.770 --> 1:51:09.030 In order. Nope. Nope. Your world. I got to put 1:51:09.110 --> 1:51:13.430 young Aretha Franklin in there. Got to put young Aretha. Extraordinary. 1:51:13.750 --> 1:51:18.630 I got to put young Al Green. I would put 1:51:18.729 --> 1:51:26.540 an early Glenn Jones. Glenn Jones. Y'all don't remember Glenn Jones. 1:51:26.680 --> 1:51:30.520 I do. Yeah. Glenn Jones. We've only just begun. Hmm. 1:51:31.260 --> 1:51:34.380 First time ever on the R & B Monday. Yeah. Yeah. 1:51:34.400 --> 1:51:37.740 You didn't see that coming. No. You didn't see that coming. 1:51:38.100 --> 1:51:41.860 I hear it, though. I would put Joe. Yes, sir. 1:51:42.420 --> 1:51:46.320 I love Joe. I would probably say in prime, Chaka Paddy. 1:51:47.300 --> 1:51:54.019 Chaka Paddy. Chaka LaBelle? Chaka LaBelle! Chaka LaBelle is wild! 1:51:54.410 --> 1:51:58.210 But it makes sense. Chaka LaBelle. My last one is 1:51:58.250 --> 1:52:03.050 Chaka LaBelle. My last one is Chaka LaBelle. Because a 1:52:03.110 --> 1:52:11.620 young Chaka and a young Patty? Yikes! Unlimited. Yikes! Chaka LaBelle. 1:52:11.640 --> 1:52:15.540 That's ballad. That's tempo. That's everything in between. 1:52:15.580 --> 1:52:22.910 Funk. Everything. Pop. And gospel. And gospel. And gospel. Shaka LaBelle. 1:52:23.090 --> 1:52:25.809 Shaka LaBelle is really good. Shaka LaBelle. Okay. Did you 1:52:25.850 --> 1:52:28.690 see I slayed in two, though? Top five? Yeah, listen. 1:52:28.830 --> 1:52:31.330 I'm sorry. Twins. 1:52:31.350 --> 1:52:34.509 Twins at five. I get it. Top five R & 1:52:34.210 --> 1:52:35.190 B songs. 1:52:36.430 --> 1:52:40.220 Top five R & B songs. Ribbon in the Sky. 1:52:40.600 --> 1:52:45.580 Why not? Sexual Healing. Why not? It just makes sense. 1:52:45.840 --> 1:52:52.099 It does, Kirk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For the lock-in. For 1:52:52.140 --> 1:52:57.180 the lock-in? What'd y'all say? Overnight? Yeah, yeah. Church lock-in. 1:52:57.540 --> 1:53:01.860 Shut up. Sexual villain. Yeah. Just because it's Marvin. Oh, 1:53:01.880 --> 1:53:03.760 you know what? Y'all trying to, you know, outchange. Okay, 1:53:03.800 --> 1:53:07.349 what's going on? No. Too late. We locked in. 1:53:07.390 --> 1:53:07.650 Marvin. 1:53:07.860 --> 1:53:08.469 Sexual villain. 1:53:08.950 --> 1:53:09.170 Yeah. 1:53:09.860 --> 1:53:12.880 Yeah, just because it feels, you know what? No, we 1:53:12.900 --> 1:53:15.960 can't do that. Let's redo it because they're going to 1:53:15.979 --> 1:53:19.430 kill me. Just move on to the next song. No, no, no, no. 1:53:19.450 --> 1:53:24.650 Let me. Can I redo that? No, please. They're going 1:53:24.670 --> 1:53:27.830 to kill me. They're going to kill me. I can't 1:53:27.850 --> 1:53:33.769 handle no more. Bro, they beat me up already. You're there, brother. Oh, God. 1:53:33.830 --> 1:53:36.090 You are who you are. I am what I am. 1:53:36.370 --> 1:53:37.530 Sexual healing. Okay. 1:53:38.070 --> 1:53:38.189 Out. 1:53:38.780 --> 1:53:40.860 I have to put Purple Rain just because I think 1:53:40.900 --> 1:53:44.430 that it's disrespectful if you don't. Yeah. That's four. Is 1:53:44.470 --> 1:53:50.969 it the boots? It's the genius of the simplicity. Don't 1:53:51.030 --> 1:53:52.790 answer his questions. 1:53:52.830 --> 1:54:06.880 Don't answer none of his questions. I almost wore mine too. 1:54:06.979 --> 1:54:10.410 Don't worry about it. Don't let Jay do this. He's 1:54:10.430 --> 1:54:12.530 not like us. Don't let him do this. 1:54:12.550 --> 1:54:15.250 You don't have my same issue. I got it. I 1:54:15.270 --> 1:54:16.729 have my same issue. I got to have a little 1:54:16.750 --> 1:54:24.630 something that, you know, this is crazy. Oh man. Let's see. Wow. 1:54:25.170 --> 1:54:31.470 The kitten heel boot. The purple rain. And I think 1:54:31.490 --> 1:54:33.410 that you have to respect. I believe I can fly. 1:54:33.750 --> 1:54:34.050 Hmm. 1:54:34.590 --> 1:54:35.150 Yeah. 1:54:35.210 --> 1:54:35.330 Yeah. 1:54:35.470 --> 1:54:38.410 I think you got to respect it. Yeah. They're going 1:54:38.430 --> 1:54:40.450 to kill me for sexual healing. 1:54:40.470 --> 1:54:41.010 No. 1:54:41.390 --> 1:54:45.190 They get it. That's fine. Run them down again. Oh, okay. 1:54:45.210 --> 1:54:47.810 So I get another chance. Okay. So let me start over. Okay. 1:54:47.840 --> 1:54:51.120 Let me start over again. Ribbon in the sky. Ribbon 1:54:51.160 --> 1:54:53.480 in the sky. Sexual healing. No, I didn't say sexual healing. 1:54:53.540 --> 1:54:57.500 Who said sexual healing? What's going on? I never said 1:54:57.540 --> 1:55:00.820 sexual healing. Healing. That's why the song makes sense. It's healing. 1:55:00.850 --> 1:55:03.830 I never said that. I never said it. Purple rain. 1:55:03.850 --> 1:55:04.370 Purple rain. 1:55:04.390 --> 1:55:06.530 Purple rain. I believe I can fly. I believe I 1:55:06.530 --> 1:55:10.190 can fly. So yeah, one more. Okay. Then I would 1:55:10.210 --> 1:55:14.910 put what's going on. Okay. True Marvin. Yeah. Why not? 1:55:15.490 --> 1:55:16.350 I think Marvin was. 1:55:18.450 --> 1:55:21.910 Prolific. We don't talk about it enough. We don't talk 1:55:21.950 --> 1:55:22.530 about it enough. 1:55:22.550 --> 1:55:25.830 And we don't make enough music these days about what's 1:55:25.890 --> 1:55:26.450 going on. 1:55:26.590 --> 1:55:26.770 Yeah. 1:55:27.150 --> 1:55:31.650 Marvin Gaye was... Yeah. He was dangerous. Son of a preacher. 1:55:31.980 --> 1:55:32.160 Yeah. 1:55:32.560 --> 1:55:36.530 Yeah. And so he had both sensibilities. Yeah. Right. You know? 1:55:36.730 --> 1:55:39.290 And so he understood the tension, which is what you 1:55:39.330 --> 1:55:42.530 got sexual healing. And then he understood the under tension, 1:55:42.570 --> 1:55:44.840 which was what's going on, you know? And I think 1:55:44.860 --> 1:55:47.920 that's brilliant is I think it's brilliant when people tap 1:55:47.960 --> 1:55:50.730 into these, these type of spaces, like, you know, a, 1:55:51.000 --> 1:55:55.120 a Tupac or, you know, where, where, where it's like 1:55:55.160 --> 1:56:01.590 their mama and, and California love at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. 1:56:01.610 --> 1:56:01.810 Yeah. 1:56:01.950 --> 1:56:03.190 And I just think that that's genius. 1:56:03.600 --> 1:56:06.600 Let's make a Voltron. This is your super R & 1:56:06.300 --> 1:56:09.590 B artist. And you're going to get characteristics from any 1:56:09.700 --> 1:56:12.710 artist to make this Voltron. You're going to get the 1:56:12.790 --> 1:56:16.570 vocal from one person. You're going to get the performance 1:56:16.590 --> 1:56:20.110 style from a person. The styling of the artist, the 1:56:20.170 --> 1:56:24.490 drip of the artist, the passion of the artist. And 1:56:24.550 --> 1:56:27.390 for you, a songwriter, who's going to write for this artist? 1:56:28.280 --> 1:56:28.560 Okay. 1:56:28.900 --> 1:56:30.660 So what one vocal are you going to get to 1:56:30.700 --> 1:56:32.020 build your super R & B artist? 1:56:32.350 --> 1:56:34.470 Okay. Super R & B artist. I would probably get 1:56:34.520 --> 1:56:39.850 the vocal. Is this a male artist? You mix it up. Yeah. Okay. 1:56:40.090 --> 1:56:42.150 The vocal of the artist. I would probably, once again, 1:56:42.190 --> 1:56:47.290 probably go Joe. Joe. Okay. Performance style. And performance style. 1:56:47.330 --> 1:56:54.410 Maybe Beyonce. Kill every stage. Yeah. Styling. The drip. Come on. 1:56:54.490 --> 1:56:56.870 Come on. Drip master. Come on. Come on. Drip master. 1:56:57.110 --> 1:57:01.050 I'd probably say Usher. i should be fly i should 1:57:01.070 --> 1:57:03.630 be fly yeah he does he does he does put 1:57:03.650 --> 1:57:06.670 some shit on put some shit on you know put 1:57:06.730 --> 1:57:09.050 it on you know the passion of the artists passion 1:57:09.070 --> 1:57:13.050 of the meaning the passion uh who gives me passion 1:57:13.070 --> 1:57:16.190 and see what's sad is that you really for me 1:57:16.230 --> 1:57:17.940 my humble opinion you got to go back because i 1:57:17.950 --> 1:57:21.540 think nine days a lot of people dial it in so. 1:57:21.460 --> 1:57:25.520 Passion I call it low management, like sports now. They 1:57:25.540 --> 1:57:26.380 be taking days off. 1:57:27.160 --> 1:57:29.580 That's good. I mean, they don't be sweating their perm 1:57:29.640 --> 1:57:33.380 out no more. That's good. That's good. That's good. So 1:57:33.460 --> 1:57:36.100 if we're going to talk about passion, maybe the passion 1:57:36.140 --> 1:57:38.470 of like a. I know where you're going. Just so 1:57:38.490 --> 1:57:39.970 that I don't take too much time, I say the 1:57:39.990 --> 1:57:42.370 passion of a Fantasia. Yeah, I knew where you was going. Yes. 1:57:42.670 --> 1:57:43.050 Yeah. 1:57:43.090 --> 1:57:46.710 Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right. No shoes on here. She 1:57:46.730 --> 1:57:47.570 do it every time. 1:57:47.710 --> 1:57:48.030 All that. 1:57:48.390 --> 1:57:50.800 She do it every time. All that. And then one more. 1:57:51.000 --> 1:57:55.740 Who's writing for the service. Who's writing for them. That's 1:57:55.760 --> 1:57:58.540 so good. Which R & B artist you want to 1:57:58.560 --> 1:58:04.390 see do a gospel album? Ooh, that's an interesting layered 1:58:04.510 --> 1:58:07.870 question because I only would want to see a gospel 1:58:07.950 --> 1:58:11.100 artist do a gospel album that wants to. do a 1:58:11.140 --> 1:58:13.800 gospel album. Not an artist that I would want to 1:58:13.840 --> 1:58:16.640 see do a gospel album. That is the component of 1:58:16.700 --> 1:58:20.520 gospel that makes it very much challenging. It's because gospel 1:58:20.550 --> 1:58:24.190 music is so much of a testament of what I believe. 1:58:24.370 --> 1:58:27.040 Does that make sense? Yeah, but I mean, I think 1:58:27.060 --> 1:58:28.660 you can still hear a voice. 1:58:28.720 --> 1:58:33.840 Yeah, if you got media training, you can still hear 1:58:33.880 --> 1:58:37.280 a voice and see a person and be like, if 1:58:37.360 --> 1:58:39.020 they did a gospel album, that would be crazy. 1:58:40.560 --> 1:58:42.270 You can still identify. And you know, the challenge is 1:58:42.590 --> 1:58:45.370 I've been in it so long that that's why I'm 1:58:45.770 --> 1:58:50.390 very committed to that statement is because I can hear 1:58:50.450 --> 1:58:53.030 somebody sing it, but the problem is with gospel, you 1:58:53.050 --> 1:58:55.700 got to feel them sing it. And that's the challenge 1:58:55.740 --> 1:58:59.130 is I don't, you know, probably a Fantasia, probably a Joe, 1:58:59.830 --> 1:59:02.070 you know, it's because I think that it would be 1:59:02.150 --> 1:59:07.090 very natural. Oh, you know what? Who I take that back. Who, who, 1:59:07.410 --> 1:59:09.390 who I also, well, no, I'm not, I would take 1:59:09.430 --> 1:59:13.600 the statement back, but I think who I believe could, could, 1:59:14.080 --> 1:59:18.220 could tap in. And it would be, I believe heartfelt 1:59:18.320 --> 1:59:24.970 and sincere and still have emotion and compassion is I think, Beyonce. 1:59:26.510 --> 1:59:31.650 I don't think that we really discussed the vocal powers. 1:59:32.730 --> 1:59:35.890 I do. He always does. I'm telling you. I do. 1:59:35.970 --> 1:59:38.290 I'm telling you. I don't think that we really. One 1:59:38.310 --> 1:59:40.710 of the greatest voices of all time. We don't talk. Yeah. 1:59:40.910 --> 1:59:41.090 Yeah. 1:59:41.110 --> 1:59:44.310 But I'm also talking about. I'm talking about. The depth 1:59:44.490 --> 1:59:46.860 of it all. I'm talking about if there's a mic toss. 1:59:47.660 --> 1:59:50.600 And I'm talking about if you go from Kim Burrell 1:59:51.340 --> 1:59:56.990 to Leandria to Fantasia. I believe that Beyonce can grab 1:59:57.030 --> 2:00:01.140 that mic and still be at the party. And live. Right. 2:00:01.460 --> 2:00:04.820 I really do. Right. It's because there are layers to 2:00:04.860 --> 2:00:08.650 the risks. And the pain and the growl and the 2:00:08.710 --> 2:00:11.670 grit that I believe that Kimberl can pass that mic 2:00:11.690 --> 2:00:16.690 to LeAndrea. LeAndrea can pass that mic to Fantasia. I believe, 2:00:17.230 --> 2:00:20.790 Kirk believes, can you believe it too? 100%. That Beyonce 2:00:20.810 --> 2:00:23.650 can grab that mic and we won't go, oh. I 2:00:23.670 --> 2:00:25.110 believe we will go, whoa. 2:00:25.770 --> 2:00:25.970 Yeah. 2:00:26.090 --> 2:00:26.690 I'm serious. 2:00:26.930 --> 2:00:27.070 Yeah. 2:00:27.110 --> 2:00:29.730 I'm serious. She don't do half of what she can do. Yes. 2:00:30.030 --> 2:00:32.150 And every now and then on certain songs you hear. 2:00:32.190 --> 2:00:34.640 You sneak out. And you're like, eh? No, she's dialed 2:00:34.680 --> 2:00:35.280 it down for sure. 2:00:36.340 --> 2:00:39.060 She opened a stadium tour with two ballads from the 2:00:39.100 --> 2:00:40.880 piano sitting next to the piano. 2:00:41.020 --> 2:00:45.620 Yeah. Jesus. Yeah. You have a different type of voice 2:00:45.660 --> 2:00:45.980 to do that. 2:00:46.480 --> 2:00:46.730 Yes. 2:00:47.560 --> 2:00:50.610 I don't think that we acknowledge it because of the 2:00:50.690 --> 2:00:53.070 beauty of the bigness, you know, you know, you know, 2:00:53.090 --> 2:00:54.370 she's a global phenomenon. 2:00:54.390 --> 2:00:56.650 I just think that it's just, we're just in a 2:00:56.730 --> 2:00:59.290 time where hate culture is just loud. 2:00:59.450 --> 2:01:01.130 It's called the internet. Let me tell you who I 2:01:01.150 --> 2:01:04.150 think vocally, who I would love to work with. Crisp. 2:01:05.040 --> 2:01:07.120 That would be incredible. I would love to work with 2:01:07.480 --> 2:01:10.540 people because again, you know, the technology and, and, and, 2:01:10.880 --> 2:01:14.040 and where his era of music is, it's dumb, you know, 2:01:14.080 --> 2:01:16.150 you know, he, he's had to dial it back, but 2:01:16.280 --> 2:01:19.870 I'm telling you, I haven't worked with him like y'all have, 2:01:20.190 --> 2:01:21.470 but I promise you, I bet. 2:01:21.770 --> 2:01:24.890 And this can't do what he does just because he's 2:01:25.070 --> 2:01:25.830 using effects. 2:01:25.890 --> 2:01:27.130 It doesn't work like that. 2:01:27.170 --> 2:01:27.350 Yeah. 2:01:27.950 --> 2:01:31.170 You have to be able to sing at a certain 2:01:31.230 --> 2:01:33.260 level in order to get that off. 2:01:33.300 --> 2:01:33.480 Yes. 2:01:34.110 --> 2:01:36.190 I don't care what's on the, I don't care what 2:01:36.270 --> 2:01:38.250 processor is on, is on the chain. 2:01:38.350 --> 2:01:38.550 Yeah. 2:01:38.760 --> 2:01:42.280 Chris can sing. Chris can sing. Chris can sing. 2:01:42.320 --> 2:01:42.480 Yeah. 2:01:42.900 --> 2:01:44.280 I like, I like the sound of that. 2:01:44.300 --> 2:01:47.220 Do you see, and I know we passed questions, but 2:01:47.240 --> 2:01:51.700 we still got to ask you questions. Do you see 2:01:52.540 --> 2:01:56.980 the next Kirk Franklin coming up? Do you believe that there's, 2:01:57.440 --> 2:02:02.500 that there's somebody that you've identified that's like, this kid 2:02:03.380 --> 2:02:04.950 is going to do, it differently? 2:02:06.050 --> 2:02:08.510 I would never use the language where I would be 2:02:08.570 --> 2:02:11.710 inclusive of my own name or my own space. That 2:02:11.770 --> 2:02:14.730 wouldn't be something I would naturally do. I would never 2:02:15.350 --> 2:02:18.410 use that type of architecture when I'm communicating, but there 2:02:18.690 --> 2:02:22.030 are some people in gospel music that I think that 2:02:22.340 --> 2:02:24.580 are the most phenomenal. I think there's a young man 2:02:24.600 --> 2:02:27.840 named Chandler Moore. I think Chandler Moore is phenomenal. I'm familiar. 2:02:28.120 --> 2:02:32.170 There's a young man named Darrell Walls that is amazing. Yeah, yeah. 2:02:32.210 --> 2:02:35.050 Incredible singer. There's a guy named Zuccardi Cortez. Ha, ha. 2:02:35.940 --> 2:02:41.680 Jonathan McReynolds. Yeah, yeah. Like, there's some hitters. There's some 2:02:41.780 --> 2:02:45.970 young hitters that I just think, you know, just that 2:02:46.160 --> 2:02:50.290 in God's due time and God's sovereign plan, watch out. Yeah. 2:02:50.490 --> 2:02:51.190 Watch out. 2:02:51.250 --> 2:02:51.490 Yeah. 2:02:51.690 --> 2:02:57.320 Watch out. Monsters, dogs, dogs. I ain't saying no names. 2:02:57.880 --> 2:02:59.120 I ain't saying no names. 2:02:59.180 --> 2:02:59.420 Hey! 2:02:59.440 --> 2:03:02.200 I ain't saying no names. I ain't saying no names. 2:03:02.240 --> 2:03:06.460 Who you was? Who you with? What you did? What 2:03:06.480 --> 2:03:14.000 he did. Don't say shit. I ain't saying no names. 2:03:15.440 --> 2:03:17.780 What's this going? 2:03:17.810 --> 2:03:22.990 This is just about his sexual healing. So it's a 2:03:23.010 --> 2:03:25.330 very important part of the show where you tell us 2:03:25.390 --> 2:03:30.360 a story. funny, or effed up. Because I ain't cussed today. 2:03:31.160 --> 2:03:34.180 I think. No, I didn't cuss today. I don't think 2:03:34.240 --> 2:03:37.260 I did. I don't think I cussed today. So now 2:03:37.280 --> 2:03:38.500 what does the story have to be? What does it 2:03:38.520 --> 2:03:40.600 have to be? The story has to be funny or 2:03:40.740 --> 2:03:44.300 effed up or funny and effed up. Okay. 2:03:44.460 --> 2:03:48.000 The only rule to the game is Kirk Franklin can't 2:03:48.040 --> 2:03:49.900 say nobody else's names. 2:03:50.020 --> 2:03:52.620 No names. Okay. It's the segment of the show. It's 2:03:52.650 --> 2:03:55.240 called I Ain't Saying No Names. Okay. So that means 2:03:55.320 --> 2:03:57.800 I've got to tell a story that would include somebody. 2:03:57.820 --> 2:03:59.680 But you just can't say their name. Yeah, you can't 2:03:59.700 --> 2:04:03.110 say their name. That's what I'm saying. Okay. Ninth grade. 2:04:03.450 --> 2:04:08.570 And I had a little name in the neighborhood for 2:04:08.670 --> 2:04:11.250 rapping at the skate rink. My name was Kid Fresh. 2:04:12.190 --> 2:04:12.430 Right? 2:04:13.260 --> 2:04:16.200 And so it was my first year at this really big, 2:04:16.320 --> 2:04:20.380 popular black high school in town. Very popular school. All 2:04:20.420 --> 2:04:22.590 the cool kids went to this school. And I wasn't 2:04:22.600 --> 2:04:24.110 supposed to go to the school because it was out 2:04:24.150 --> 2:04:26.490 of my district, but I went. I found a way 2:04:26.530 --> 2:04:29.790 to go because the choir there was cold, the band 2:04:29.830 --> 2:04:32.070 was cold, and I wanted to be there. Some of 2:04:32.110 --> 2:04:35.870 the upperclassmen heard me rap at the skating rink, and 2:04:35.950 --> 2:04:39.190 during the talent show auditions, they were going to put 2:04:39.220 --> 2:04:41.540 together like a little rap group. So you can imagine 2:04:41.560 --> 2:04:45.100 being a freshman, and these senior dudes, these junior dudes 2:04:45.140 --> 2:04:47.200 want you to be part of their crew. It's like, 2:04:47.840 --> 2:04:50.740 oh my, you know. I'm in. What? Yeah. I ain't 2:04:50.770 --> 2:04:53.590 got nothing that's going on. I ain't got to be nowhere. And, 2:04:53.670 --> 2:04:57.030 you know, and they were like the cool dudes. And 2:04:57.130 --> 2:05:00.290 so it was talent show auditions. You know, you had 2:05:00.330 --> 2:05:03.150 to audition. And so we went out in the hallway, 2:05:03.470 --> 2:05:06.010 you know, and just kind of rehearsed. But all the 2:05:06.070 --> 2:05:08.590 cool kids are in that audition. Like all the girls, 2:05:08.690 --> 2:05:12.840 you know, everybody's in the room where you're auditioning because 2:05:12.900 --> 2:05:15.480 it was in the band room. Packed. I forget what 2:05:15.500 --> 2:05:17.500 we called ourselves real quick, but I went in there 2:05:17.520 --> 2:05:20.430 with them. And again, a freshman. but they thought I 2:05:20.450 --> 2:05:22.830 was cold enough from the skating rink where they'd be rapping. 2:05:23.270 --> 2:05:26.470 You know, like, yo, my little Kirk can rap. And 2:05:26.530 --> 2:05:30.710 I didn't have the kitten heels on then. Okay. Yeah. 2:05:32.050 --> 2:05:39.100 I'm sure you did. Ladies and gentlemen, I don't own 2:05:39.160 --> 2:05:42.880 a pair of kitten heels. I don't. Roll the tape. 2:05:42.900 --> 2:05:58.120 Don't make us do it. So I walk into the 2:05:58.180 --> 2:06:00.890 room with them. They're on a cookie and everybody's waiting 2:06:00.900 --> 2:06:04.550 for us to rap. And there was another group in there, boys, 2:06:04.590 --> 2:06:06.950 that already had a rap group. And they were kind 2:06:06.970 --> 2:06:10.430 of like... like we walked in while they were auditioning 2:06:10.830 --> 2:06:13.130 and they were trying to like, you know, hot side, 2:06:13.150 --> 2:06:16.330 you know, what we call hot side. Remember that, you know, 2:06:16.490 --> 2:06:19.060 so they were rapping against us, looking at us and, 2:06:19.070 --> 2:06:20.630 you know, they were trying to say things about, you know, 2:06:20.750 --> 2:06:22.530 us as a crew, boom, boom, boom, boom. And when 2:06:22.550 --> 2:06:26.950 they finished, it was our time to audition. So rapping, 2:06:28.050 --> 2:06:30.110 you know, you know, you know, all the upperclassmen were 2:06:30.130 --> 2:06:32.510 going and somebody said, and I'm gonna pass the mic 2:06:32.550 --> 2:06:37.390 to my man, Kirk. Mind you, they had just finished 2:06:38.050 --> 2:06:44.000 coming against us. Yeah. I'm nervous because pretty girls in there, 2:06:44.720 --> 2:06:47.200 I'm rapping, but I'm rapping with the upperclassmen and I 2:06:47.220 --> 2:06:50.960 want to impress them. Why did I just take the 2:06:51.000 --> 2:06:55.150 mic with no tempo, no rhyming? My rhymes were right. 2:06:56.350 --> 2:07:01.710 And I just started cussing those girls out. I was 2:07:01.730 --> 2:07:07.100 so nervous. I just started cussing them out. F y'all. 2:07:07.460 --> 2:07:10.460 F y'all. So you've been making those cussing mistakes. Hold on. 2:07:10.640 --> 2:07:13.760 They stopped the music and the band director over there 2:07:13.780 --> 2:07:17.570 was like, get him out of here. You can't do that. 2:07:17.630 --> 2:07:19.730 You're just cussing. And they kicked me out in front 2:07:19.750 --> 2:07:21.470 of everybody. And the dudes that were with me, they 2:07:21.630 --> 2:07:23.090 were like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. You 2:07:23.110 --> 2:07:25.790 can't kick us all out. He ain't with us. No. 2:07:26.050 --> 2:07:29.150 Because they still wanted to be part. So they kicked 2:07:29.190 --> 2:07:31.570 me out in front of everybody. So, bro, I'm walking 2:07:31.670 --> 2:07:36.170 out by myself because I done cussed everybody out. I'm 2:07:36.230 --> 2:07:39.870 hot right now thinking about how that felt. Because I 2:07:39.890 --> 2:07:42.150 just started cussing. And I'm thinking now I'm old. I'm like, 2:07:42.310 --> 2:07:44.240 why would I do that? Why did I just start 2:07:44.300 --> 2:07:46.560 cussing people out like that? But that's all I had. 2:07:48.420 --> 2:07:49.660 It was a very embarrassing moment. 2:07:49.660 --> 2:07:51.480 And that's where it began. 2:07:51.480 --> 2:07:55.010 That's where it began. I can't stand y'all. No, listen. 2:07:55.010 --> 2:07:58.440 I just started cussing at my mom. And none of 2:07:58.520 --> 2:08:01.380 it rhymed. It didn't rhyme on the other day. It 2:08:02.300 --> 2:08:08.100 didn't rhyme. It didn't rhyme. On what? That's all right. 2:08:08.220 --> 2:08:20.100 Brother Kirk. Oh, from the mix. Volume 3. Coming soon. 2:08:20.260 --> 2:08:25.060 You know he can't wait. He can't wait. Brother Kirk. 2:08:25.080 --> 2:08:25.880 Hold on. Hold on. 2:08:26.220 --> 2:08:30.090 It's something I got to add because this is my 2:08:30.130 --> 2:08:34.010 fan moment, brother. I got to say this. My favorite song. 2:08:35.690 --> 2:08:36.750 Something about the name Jesus. 2:08:37.070 --> 2:08:42.630 Really? That record. Wow. Rance Allen, Men of Standard. 2:08:43.020 --> 2:08:43.180 Yeah. 2:08:43.340 --> 2:08:44.100 My brother Ike. 2:08:44.440 --> 2:08:45.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:08:45.340 --> 2:08:50.590 The fool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That record is so incredible. 2:08:50.610 --> 2:08:53.190 But as a songwriter, and this is why I'm asking this, 2:08:55.530 --> 2:08:58.370 the demo couldn't have been the same melody that Rance 2:08:58.530 --> 2:09:00.490 Allen is singing when you're writing the song. 2:09:00.490 --> 2:09:03.460 Because he does so many different. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:09:03.820 --> 2:09:06.780 When I wrote the song and I had the idea 2:09:06.940 --> 2:09:10.340 of Rance, it's because I was thinking old school, new school. 2:09:10.820 --> 2:09:11.860 And I thought, you know, I'm going to put a 2:09:11.880 --> 2:09:14.220 minute standard on the song. And I'm going to get 2:09:14.320 --> 2:09:16.940 Rance Allen because Rance Allen, you know, I was always 2:09:16.960 --> 2:09:20.360 a fan. And, you know, and again, the New Nation 2:09:20.440 --> 2:09:22.100 album gave me an opportunity to do whatever I wanted 2:09:22.120 --> 2:09:23.670 to do because it ran out of stone. So, you know, 2:09:23.950 --> 2:09:26.050 the budget was big, the opportunity was bigger. And I 2:09:26.130 --> 2:09:28.730 called him. And again, I had them all in the 2:09:28.770 --> 2:09:31.330 studio at the same time because this is back then 2:09:31.350 --> 2:09:35.700 when everybody had to show up. So this is Rance's 2:09:35.760 --> 2:09:38.320 first time hearing the song. I cut the music in Texas. 2:09:38.780 --> 2:09:42.070 I cut the vocals in L.A. at Vicky's studio. I 2:09:42.130 --> 2:09:45.150 say to Rance, okay, so some people think I'm crazy, 2:09:45.220 --> 2:09:48.880 but I'm giving him the cadence. Right. And I said, 2:09:49.020 --> 2:09:52.580 but I want you to do you. Yeah. So I 2:09:52.580 --> 2:09:53.860 gave him the cadence. I said, but I want you 2:09:53.880 --> 2:09:55.700 to go in there and do you. He's like, okay, okay. 2:09:55.740 --> 2:09:58.090 Because he's been a legend for a long time. So 2:09:58.150 --> 2:10:00.930 he knew what to do. Yeah. He went into that 2:10:01.050 --> 2:10:06.910 booth and started doing that stuff that he was, all 2:10:06.950 --> 2:10:10.570 of that. And we were just all in the control room, 2:10:10.610 --> 2:10:16.300 just like. I don't understand what Saturn is from. Monster. 2:10:16.540 --> 2:10:20.770 And so what he did was so cold. Men of Standard, 2:10:20.950 --> 2:10:25.510 they were like, it wasn't a fun party. It wasn't 2:10:25.570 --> 2:10:28.630 a fun party. They had to get the courage to 2:10:28.650 --> 2:10:31.990 try to go back in after that. Oh, yeah. It 2:10:32.050 --> 2:10:35.910 was a serious thing. It was a beautiful moment. But 2:10:36.030 --> 2:10:37.490 I didn't know the song was going to do that. 2:10:38.890 --> 2:10:41.910 I had no idea. My focus was on revolution and 2:10:41.930 --> 2:10:44.750 lean on me. I had no idea. Something about the 2:10:44.790 --> 2:10:48.090 name Jesus just came out of nowhere. Came out of nowhere. 2:10:48.390 --> 2:10:50.830 Had no idea it was going to do that. I 2:10:50.870 --> 2:10:52.430 was just trying to make sure that I had enough 2:10:52.720 --> 2:10:55.680 traditional songs for my audience to then feel like I 2:10:55.700 --> 2:10:58.720 was going too far. That was my only agenda. I 2:10:58.760 --> 2:11:01.000 was thinking, oh, this is going to be a... Had 2:11:01.040 --> 2:11:01.620 no idea. 2:11:02.020 --> 2:11:04.480 So that and Melodies from Heaven are the two that 2:11:04.500 --> 2:11:06.800 you didn't You just had no idea they would have 2:11:06.840 --> 2:11:07.620 the life that they've had. 2:11:07.680 --> 2:11:10.000 Wow. I have never written a song that when I 2:11:10.040 --> 2:11:14.740 finished it, I was like, oh, never. That's the one. Yeah. Never. 2:11:14.800 --> 2:11:17.530 After 20 Grammys. You can't call it. I can't call it. 2:11:17.950 --> 2:11:22.850 I can't call it. And I'm okay with that. Incredible, brother. Well, 2:11:23.630 --> 2:11:25.790 Elder Franklin. Thank y'all for having me. 2:11:26.030 --> 2:11:29.200 We thank you, brother. We appreciate your time. We appreciate 2:11:29.220 --> 2:11:30.920 your ministry. What did y'all think of my story? 2:11:31.300 --> 2:11:32.850 I kind of knew you was going to end up here. 2:11:32.890 --> 2:11:34.890 I thought you was, yeah. I knew something was wild. 2:11:34.910 --> 2:11:37.190 Something wild was going on. It's pretty on brand for you, though. 2:11:37.350 --> 2:11:39.150 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But why would I do that to 2:11:39.170 --> 2:11:40.570 them people? Why would I do that? Why would I 2:11:40.570 --> 2:11:41.550 just cuss at them? You have an aggressive side to 2:11:41.570 --> 2:11:43.250 you that you don't, you know. You do. Why would 2:11:43.270 --> 2:11:44.750 I just cuss at them? You try to subdue. 2:11:44.910 --> 2:11:48.700 You know, the Holy Spirit has a reign on the 2:11:48.780 --> 2:11:49.480 fighter in you. 2:11:49.660 --> 2:11:52.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just don't know why. And 2:11:52.020 --> 2:11:54.200 if y'all are watching this, I'm sorry that I did 2:11:54.220 --> 2:11:56.900 y'all like that. Yeah. They probably didn't tell that story 2:11:56.920 --> 2:11:59.440 a hundred times. They definitely told that story. Man, high school, man. 2:11:59.480 --> 2:12:06.430 That's all that gospel, man. 2:12:06.490 --> 2:12:08.370 Beautiful. Thank y'all for having me, man. This is really, 2:12:08.390 --> 2:12:11.650 really dope. It's your house, brother. Whatever you need from us, man. Anytime. 2:12:12.230 --> 2:12:15.240 What is your, he said his song, what is your 2:12:15.360 --> 2:12:20.320 song that God loaned me that for you, it's your one? Man. 2:12:21.070 --> 2:12:23.730 I've had so many experiences with all of your songs. Really? 2:12:23.750 --> 2:12:26.050 I'm the minister of music, man, so I ain't have 2:12:26.070 --> 2:12:30.330 no choice. I'm going to start with Stomp, only because, 2:12:31.750 --> 2:12:39.100 to me, that's when church music turned into what I 2:12:39.160 --> 2:12:42.260 needed it to be. That's when I was able to 2:12:42.380 --> 2:12:46.160 really express who I was as a Christian. 2:12:46.700 --> 2:12:49.380 Wow. Stomp freed me in that way. Have you heard 2:12:49.400 --> 2:12:49.850 the new album? 2:12:50.200 --> 2:12:50.270 No. 2:12:52.210 --> 2:12:55.290 Is there a song off the new album that, you know, 2:12:56.020 --> 2:12:58.980 it's become, which one is yours? This time it's my song. 2:12:59.000 --> 2:13:03.240 This time it's my song, bro. Like, I'm, listen, I'm 2:13:03.300 --> 2:13:06.080 listening to that the same, I'm listening to Lil Baby. 2:13:07.040 --> 2:13:10.240 I'm listening, it's on the same playlist. Man, it just, wow. 2:13:11.140 --> 2:13:12.140 It is, man. 2:13:12.380 --> 2:13:12.620 Wow. 2:13:12.720 --> 2:13:16.100 It's gotta live there. It's gotta be there. It has 2:13:16.180 --> 2:13:19.400 to be. That's where the message has to go. 2:13:19.720 --> 2:13:19.960 Mm-hmm. 2:13:20.860 --> 2:13:23.580 It has to get to the people, man. Like, it 2:13:23.620 --> 2:13:27.610 can't be coveted. Leave it under a bush. It can't be. 2:13:28.530 --> 2:13:31.270 And I know it's not like a song song, but 2:13:31.290 --> 2:13:36.330 the intro. The intro, you set it off. I played 2:13:36.350 --> 2:13:38.250 it for you while we were shooting. it was the 2:13:38.350 --> 2:13:40.330 song that I said that we were, that I thought 2:13:40.350 --> 2:13:42.620 about getting a friend on, on the top of it. 2:13:42.910 --> 2:13:46.250 It's a song where I'm, where I'm talking and you 2:13:46.270 --> 2:13:47.810 heard what was shown for me. You probably don't remember. 2:13:47.840 --> 2:13:51.760 Cause you won't. I remember. Yeah. But that record, it 2:13:51.840 --> 2:13:52.900 is a real intro. 2:13:53.160 --> 2:13:55.260 And the fact that just with what you were saying 2:13:55.360 --> 2:13:58.980 on there, just of what you've gone through and who 2:13:59.020 --> 2:14:02.780 you are in this moment and who you know. 2:14:02.850 --> 2:14:05.550 You are at this point. Yeah. Yeah. 2:14:05.940 --> 2:14:08.400 Because we don't always know ourselves. We're always finding out 2:14:08.440 --> 2:14:10.700 different things. And, you know, that's what life does for us. 2:14:11.640 --> 2:14:13.770 But that's what I felt like. And it's, you know, 2:14:13.890 --> 2:14:14.600 I am who I am. 2:14:14.970 --> 2:14:17.910 Yep. And I'm cool with both of them. Yeah. I'm 2:14:17.970 --> 2:14:21.210 cool with both. Thank you all, man. We appreciate you, brother. 2:14:21.470 --> 2:14:23.010 This has been amazing. I don't even know what else 2:14:23.030 --> 2:14:23.510 to say, man. 2:14:23.610 --> 2:14:23.810 I mean. 2:14:24.100 --> 2:14:24.360 Thank you. 2:14:24.420 --> 2:14:26.880 I normally have long outros, man. This is Kirk Franklin, man. 2:14:26.920 --> 2:14:28.920 This is Kirk Franklin, man. Ladies and gentlemen, my name 2:14:28.940 --> 2:14:31.360 is Tank. I'm Jay Valentine. And this is the R & 2:14:31.140 --> 2:14:35.000 B Money Podcast, the authority on all things R & 2:14:34.460 --> 2:14:38.260 B and gospel at this point. You might as well 2:14:38.280 --> 2:14:40.380 roll that on in there. Ain't no buddy pass. Ain't 2:14:40.460 --> 2:14:43.710 no buddy passes, huh? It's all money now. It ain't 2:14:43.750 --> 2:14:46.070 no buddy pass. Straight cash, homie. 2:14:46.170 --> 2:14:50.290 You feel me? And it's healing. Sexual healing. You understand 2:14:50.330 --> 2:14:54.910 what I'm saying? Wow. Because the Lord gave us this, 2:14:55.050 --> 2:14:58.390 and he ain't taking it away. Wow. It all starts 2:14:58.430 --> 2:14:58.790 with him. 2:14:58.910 --> 2:15:01.250 At the seventh day after he created all this, what 2:15:01.270 --> 2:15:01.750 did he say? 2:15:02.350 --> 2:15:06.070 It is good. And I wear real man boots. Ladies 2:15:06.210 --> 2:15:10.290 and gentlemen, Kirk Franklin. And he's out. You hit your 2:15:10.330 --> 2:15:11.010 head on the light.