1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie Kansamantha. Welcome to stuff. I never 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: told you objection, but I heard you, And today we 3 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: are bringing back part one of our two part series 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: of women cult Beaters. Yes, because, as we've discussed in 5 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: recent times, we've been talking about cults a lot. I've 6 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: seen a lot of stuff about cults popping up and 7 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: getting a lot of attention on streaming a lot of 8 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: different things and stirring up conversation there, so figured why 9 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: not bring this? Why not? 10 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: Apparently we Yeah, we've I've also been talking to people 11 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 2: about it. One was about a cult through the Renaissance fair. 12 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, but that's been kind of the fascinating 13 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: thing about all this different media about it is you're 14 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: seeing all the various ways it can manifest. Who knew, 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: well once we tried and apparently well, please enjoy part 16 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: one of this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and 17 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: Samantha and welcome to stuff. I've never told your production. 18 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: Iheartrate you. So, Samantha, are you into cult like entertainment? 19 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: I am so. 20 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: Actually, I don't know if you knew this. As I 21 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: studied social work at the University of Georgia, I kind 22 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: of had a secondary because I was stupid me. 23 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't keep going with it. 24 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: I was like three or four classes away from actually 25 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: having it as another major, but religion was going to 26 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 2: be another major, and my focus was actually on cults 27 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,839 Speaker 2: Eastern religions. But that not that they have anything the same, 28 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: they're not. But yeah, because I love the whole idea 29 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: of cults and what it like, it's background kind of 30 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: the beginnings of religion and how it started as cult 31 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: like and then moving on. So yeah, I love different facts. 32 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: Of course, that's the tragedies. I don't love that, but 33 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: the fascination of why people follow, who they follow, and 34 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: what they believe. 35 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I like we talked about in past episodes. 36 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: I'm not really big into true crime and I haven't 37 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: seen a lot of the documentaries or other I haven't 38 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: listened to a lot of podcasts that have been done 39 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: about these cults, but I do. It is one of 40 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: my favorite kind of genres of horror that I find 41 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: really upsetting and disturbing. One of my favorite video game 42 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: series is Silent Hill, which has a big cult element. 43 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: And I love Midsommar and the other lamb but they 44 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: do freak me out. They really unsettle me. And I 45 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: was in a cult based movie. 46 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: Okay, that was not going in my head. You were 47 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 2: about to say something else, like, wait, what it was 48 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: in a cults? By the way, I have had friends 49 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: who were part of cults, who grew up in cults 50 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: or communes as they would call it, but they came 51 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: with a lot of trauma. 52 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had. I might have told the story before 53 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: on the show. As far as I know, I don't 54 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: have any close friends or family that have been involved 55 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: in cults. But I had a group of friends who 56 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: uh wanted to see the audit process of scientology. Like 57 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: they didn't want to join obviously. Well I don't know obviously, 58 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: but they didn't want to join, and they made this. 59 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: They were like, we're not going to get separated, we 60 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: just want to like check it out. And they all 61 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: got separated. 62 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: I was like, yep, that's the beginning of like several 63 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: sitcom episodes that I've seen. It's not fun, but they 64 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: all get separated the first thing. They're like, oh no, 65 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: and one of them eventually buison and the rest of 66 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:08,839 Speaker 2: them are like trying to get them out. 67 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: So many plots, so many well, who do you think 68 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: of when you think of cult leaders, like what is 69 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: the stereotypical image that comes to mind? 70 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: Course, like David Koresh is a big name in the 71 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: US as someone that we know who is a big 72 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: leader in cults. I think about actually scientology as part 73 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: of that as well. So I think I'm not necessarily 74 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: a leader. But Leah REMANI who has a show with iHeart, 75 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 2: I believe talking about her time as a part of 76 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 2: a scientologist group. I think about her sometimes just because 77 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: she's so loud about it and there's not too many 78 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: people who are willing to be loud about it. And 79 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: I know one of the big things about cults and 80 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: communies like that are specific to secrecy and blackmail, and 81 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: there's so many stories. Like I said, I've had friends 82 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: who are parts of them who had been. 83 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: Like they did this to me. 84 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: They told me they had to give I had to 85 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: give all this information to them, and how they kind 86 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: of just like in a like a domestic violence situation, 87 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: they strip them of their personality, they strip them of 88 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: their identity. But yeah, I think about her too for 89 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: some reason that she pospsed me my head. Obviously, again, 90 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: not a leader, she's out and she's talking about some 91 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 2: of the issues within her experiences. Yeah, but I find 92 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: it interesting enough because it's one of the bigger, more 93 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 2: popular ones thanks to celebrities, right her. So yeah, those 94 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: are the ones that kind of pop into my head. 95 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: What about you? Yeah, I mean, she's definitely a vocal 96 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: person when it comes to colts And this was researching 97 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: this episode, I was shocked at how many times a 98 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: celebrity would come up and I was like, wow, they 99 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: were in this, Okay, Yeah, but I do like, if 100 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: I just come up with the stereotypical cult leader image, 101 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: it's usually a white dude with brown hair, darker hair, 102 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: all bearded. Yeah, usually kind of Jesus Like yeah, honestly. 103 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the most fascinating studies that I did, 104 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: or a book that I read and we researched and 105 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 2: I can't even remember his name, was a book called 106 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: The God's Chinese Son. Essentially, it was this man from 107 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: China who truly believed he was Jesus's brother and started 108 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 2: his own cult within China. But a little not like 109 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: I don't hear too many where they use Christian based 110 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: idea within like China and all that I've not. 111 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: Heard too many. Maybe it's because I haven't looked it up. 112 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: There are going to be a few we're going to 113 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: talk about in here, but yeah, and I know, like 114 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: this there's a fascination of cults in general, and like 115 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: Snel recently did that like music video where the women 116 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: were talking about how they love murder shows and then 117 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: at the end Nick Jonas comes in I think it 118 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: was him, and he was like, what about the cult shows? Yeah, 119 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: so we are talking about women cult leaders specifically in 120 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: this one, and we're planning on returning to discuss women 121 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: in cults at large, which we will touch on a 122 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: little bit. But yeah, we wanted to talk about some 123 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: of the ladies at the at the forefront of these cults, 124 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: and it turns out there's more than we thought. So 125 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: this is a two harder but yeah. 126 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,119 Speaker 2: So essentially, after the news broke out about the leader 127 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: of Love has won, which we're going to talk about 128 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: her a little bit, we came to a point We're like, wait, 129 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: how many female cult leaders are there? 130 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: And what? Wow? 131 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: Why there's so many just questions So definitely wanted to 132 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: look again. Didn't realize there were so many. 133 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: Yes, And before we get into this trigger warning. We 134 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: are going to be discussing suicide, sexual abuse, violence, death, murder, 135 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: general abuse, just some not so savory things, right because 136 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about cults. But we're not going to go 137 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: too in depth into any of that. And reminder always 138 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: remember that, yes, these are real people still dealing with 139 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: the fallout in many cases of what we're talking about, 140 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: and like in our Serial Killers episode, the history can 141 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: be a bit exaggerated and hard to pin down, but 142 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: we did our best, right. Yeah, So all right, let's 143 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: do some basics here before we get into some of 144 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: the women leaders. After the Manson family shocked the public 145 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: with the murders, cults became a big source of anxiety 146 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: in the United States, and anxiety that lasted from the 147 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: late nineteen sixties until the nineteen nineties, spurred on by 148 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: media coverage. But what exactly is a cult? Well, it 149 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: turns out that is a very hard definition to have 150 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: been down. Nobody wants to be too precise, it seems 151 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: from a Pen Today article, cult is a term that 152 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: doesn't refer to a religion at all, but is applied 153 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: to a social movement. People have intuitive feelings about how 154 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: the word cults should be used, even when an organization 155 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: or movement meets the criteria of a new religion. Take 156 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: for example, Scientilogy and Mormonism. Both were new religious movements 157 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: that have evolved into a general understanding of definition of 158 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: a religion. However, according to Pew Research, non Mormons in 159 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: the US are more likely to label Mormonism as a cult. 160 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: Scientology and Mormonism have outlived their charismatic leaders and side 161 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: note from me, the charismatic leader bit is really key 162 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: in this whole thing, The article continues. They have openly 163 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: published their beliefs as scripture. Both religions seek truth by 164 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: offering its followers a roadmap for their place in the universe, 165 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: along with a moral code. Those who accept the beliefs 166 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: and rituals are members of their religion, but many outside 167 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: consider the movement and its followers to be a cult. 168 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: And then it goes on to quote linguistics professor Robin Clark, 169 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: the word cult originally designates a practice of religious veneration 170 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: and the religious system based around such veneration, for example, 171 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: the cults of Our Lady of Godalupe. However, the word 172 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: was co opted in the first half of the twentieth 173 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: century by sociology and has come to denote a social 174 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: group with socially deviant beliefs and practices like a UFO cult. 175 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of hypocrisy and suspicion when 176 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: it comes to Eastern religions and anything affiliated with them 177 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: in the US, especially when they've become successful. Basically, anything 178 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: that's not Christianity couldn't get caught up in this whole 179 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: cult conversation. And yeah, that whole idea. There have been 180 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: a lot of arguments about a new religion sort of 181 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: if it doesn't fit into this Christianity framework being called 182 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: a cult. And cults can't exist in multiple numbers of ways, religious, commercial, familial, 183 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 1: just to name a few. And yeah, the typically that 184 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: charismatic leader is really really key and some of the 185 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: things we're going to talk about like maybe was a 186 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: cult at one time and then evolved out of it 187 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: or just depending on who the leader is, right, which 188 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: actually has been the source of conversation around trump Ism. 189 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: Right. And again, this is why we wanted to look 190 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: at the female leaders because it is so centered around 191 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: the leaders these different groups. It's fascinating to see people 192 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 2: following women in general. So to have the charisma, Yeah, 193 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: it's typically understated, which is probably why I didn't know 194 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: as many of these names as I do of male leaders. 195 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: But that's a whole different thing. So let's talk about 196 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: some numbers. So, according to Tennessee State University, there are 197 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: thousands of cults in America, and some harless, some dangerous. 198 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: Not surprising. 199 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 2: They go on to define cult as a group or 200 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic 201 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has 202 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 2: the answers to all of life's questions and offers a 203 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules. 204 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: It requires a high level of commitment from at least 205 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: some of the members, So again, the definition can get 206 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: quite murky and cause a lot of debate. For instance, 207 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: there's a huge conversation right now around till Swan, a 208 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 2: new age spiritual self proclaimed health guru who purports to 209 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: the powers that allow her to not only look inside 210 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: people's bodies and see what's going on, but us also 211 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: allow her to recover repressed memories within people and deal 212 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: with childhood trauma. She was one of the names I 213 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: didn't see. Students paid two thousand dollars or more to 214 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: work with her. The debate around her sparked after a 215 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 2: student of hers took their life. Swan, who has a 216 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,599 Speaker 2: huge social media presence, has encouraged followers and students to 217 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: imagine their suicides in detail. She says quote, we're all 218 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: going to get suicidal for a moment. In some of 219 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 2: her YouTube videos, she calls suicide a relief, a reset button. 220 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: Her channel has half a million subscribers, and at the 221 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: same time she creates a space for conversations around suicidal 222 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: thoughts and child sexual abuse. She has plenty of seemingly 223 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 2: harmless content on finding joy and stuff like that, and 224 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: videos that have racked up millions of views, but she 225 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: does this without any real accountability or responsibility when people 226 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: who listen to her may need professional help. Some members 227 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: of the Quote Till tribe claim that the only reason 228 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: they are alive today is because of what Till taught them. 229 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: And if you want to learn more about Swan, you 230 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: can check out the six part Gizmodo podcast series called 231 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: The Gateway. Pretty Much everybody we talk about in here, 232 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: and every cult we talk about, has either a podcast, 233 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: a Netflix documentary, or both, So if you want to 234 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: learn more you can the mediums are out there for you, 235 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: and this is a case where we're really having to 236 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: as a society update our thoughts on cults to include 237 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: modern circumstances and technology. Teal uses SEO or search words 238 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: basically to target vulnerable people, so if someone searches I 239 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 1: want to kill myself, they might get served up for videos. 240 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 1: Some argue this is also an instance of cults run 241 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: by women not being taken seriously as compared to cults 242 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: led by men, that cults run by women aren't labeled 243 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 1: as cults when perhaps they should be. The word cult 244 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: itself is often gendered when it comes to things like 245 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: cults of skincare or cult of domesticity. Multi marketing companies 246 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: are sometimes put in the same category as cults, many 247 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: of them run by women. Obviously, that's a whole different topic, 248 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: and not all emilms would qualify as cults, but just 249 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: for instance, and I think there's another conversation we could 250 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: have about things like QAnon and how they target women 251 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: through self help and yoga groups with these ideas of 252 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: protecting children often and just all of that sort of 253 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: being dismissed as well. That's a lady thing. We don't 254 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: need to pay serious attention to this. 255 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: All right, I know we definitely talked a little bit 256 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: about that in our past episode on QAnon and women, 257 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: when we talked about the specific groups such as the 258 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: red Pill group and all of that which does target 259 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: women in that group, as well as giving them mentors, 260 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 2: which is familiar, right, and then who their leaders are 261 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: and who they see as leaders, And typically they're all 262 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: moms of some sort or caretakers of some sort, so 263 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: it's definitely interesting to see that. So cult leaders themselves 264 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: are generally charismatic, compelling, and absolutely unshakable, like they will 265 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: argue with you until. 266 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: The cows come home. I couldn't think I'm a better saying. 267 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: They are often compared to domestic abusers and follow a 268 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: lot of the same patterns, including starting with something called 269 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: love bombing, basically showering you with attention not always positive, 270 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: and in the early stages a seduction period where the 271 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: person recruiting you makes you feel special, which is very 272 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: familiar as we know when it comes to grooming. But 273 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: in a cult there are promises, a family of meaning 274 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: of enlightenment, empowerment, money, being a part of something more 275 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: and the bigger and the role you'll play in that. 276 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: And then once you've got in isolation is next exerting control. 277 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: Right from University of Tennessee. Again, most cult leaders have 278 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder. Symptoms include an excessive need for admiration, 279 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: disregard for others feelings and inability to handle any criticism, 280 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: and a sense of entitlement. So when it comes to 281 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: who these cults target, while vulnerable people or people in 282 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: a transitional period in life, like if you've just lost 283 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: a job or gone through a really big breakup are 284 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: often targeted, no one is immune from Jon T. Tam, 285 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: who wrote Cartwheels in a Sorry, a memoir of growing 286 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: up in a cult, quote, the aptitude and capacity to 287 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: exploit human beings is universal and with the right ambitious 288 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: and charismatic leader, any group easily could morph into a cult. 289 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: And doctor Yanya Lalich, a cult leader researcher out of 290 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: California State University, says, cult leaders will always get their 291 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: people to what I call reframe their lives. They reinterpret 292 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: their lives so they see everything from before the cult 293 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: as messed up, and only by staying with the cult 294 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: leader will they get straightened out from doctor Alexandria Stein, 295 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: author of Terror, Love and Brainwashing, Attachment and Cults until 296 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: Tellitarian Systems. All of it is about arousing fear and 297 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: the victim. Once you're fearful and they're the only person 298 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: you've got, you will go towards the only resource you have, 299 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: which is the person who is frightening you. If I'm frightened, 300 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: I go and see my friend or call my mom. 301 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: It's instinctive. But when the only person left is the 302 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: frightening person, you are trapped. You're trapped emotionally clinging to them, 303 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: hoping they alleviate the pain, but that never happens, so 304 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: you end up in a feedback loop of fear. From there, 305 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: you cognitively disassociate and become unable to think about the 306 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: situation you're in. That's why it's so hard to understand 307 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: from the outside. People say, why doesn't she just leave 308 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: about someone in a relationship, and why didn't they just 309 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: leave about someone In a cult, they're trapped there by 310 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: a trauma bond and unable to think clearly for themselves. 311 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: So toxic masculinity fits perfectly with these cult leaders. Commodification 312 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: and control of female bodies a need to display power 313 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: at all times, and because of this, heterosexual men often 314 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: use their position as cult leaders to meet their predatory 315 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: sexual desires, and we've seen a lot of accounts of that. 316 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: There are accounts of women and cults forced to get 317 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 2: abortions having sex with a male cult leader. Violence, emotional 318 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 2: and psychological abuse, and coercions are frequently employed against women 319 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 2: and cults and cults sometimes separate children from their parents, 320 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 2: allowing for sexual abuse, and in several instances there are 321 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: women up the male cult leader and the cult of 322 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: self helping with recruitment and the general running of the cult. 323 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: Jim jones former lover Carolyn Layton was right behind them 324 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: in terms of influencing the Jones Down massacre. Or there's 325 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: Naomi Jessup, the favorite wife of Warren Jeffs, who stood 326 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: by and offered counseling while he was undergoing trial and 327 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 2: citizen for child abuse and molestation, and he ended up 328 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: serving time for aggravated sexual as seulf for underage girls. However, 329 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: it is important to point out that these women themselves 330 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: were indoctrinated. And again, when we talked about the Manson family, 331 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: we talked about the women talking about not knowing what 332 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: they were walking into, thinking they were just coming into 333 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 2: a circle of love essentially again because they came into 334 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: this young and trying, just searching for something. What differentiates 335 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 2: them from other members is that they were able to 336 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: earn the cult leaders trust and thus power for themselves, 337 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 2: and often this is a form of protection or self 338 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: preservation in the face of trauma and abuse. Holding a 339 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 2: position of trust can shield them from rule and punishments 340 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: other members face, perhaps again forming a trauma bond with 341 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: the cult leader, and again this is very reminiscent of 342 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 2: being in a vulneoral relationship. They frequently head up recruitment, 343 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 2: projecting a maternal nature and caring to bring in new members, 344 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 2: and many of them, often young women, use for the 345 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 2: cult leader's sexual gratification. And of course, if you look 346 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: at who they are and sometimes what they're called, they're 347 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: often just called mother or mother so and so. So 348 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: it's interesting to see again the naming, mass weddings, arranged marriages, grooming, 349 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: forced abortions, and reproductive control and all forms of sexual 350 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: abuse are so frequently utilized in cults. 351 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: Right Another example of a cult recently garnering mainstream attention 352 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: is Nexium, the so called self help organization that's now 353 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: called a sex cult. Once members started getting arrested, Nexium 354 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: dictated that members cut up ties with friends and family, 355 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: replacing those relationships within the group while controlling pretty much 356 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: their entire lives. While the leaders slash founder is a 357 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: man Renier or Vanguard as he went by, a man 358 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: that members believed was the smartest man alive and therefore 359 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: the planet's only hope for survival. It was largely run 360 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: by women, and it was co founded by a woman 361 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: named Nancy Salzman aka the Prefects, who was a registered nurse. 362 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: Women were the ones doing the recruitment presenting the public image. 363 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: Actor Alison Mack was one of these women. She's become 364 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: one of the faces you probably think of first. What 365 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: Nexium offered was largely run by women and geared towards women, 366 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: sold as self help sessions promising happiness and independence. Intense 367 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: twelve hour sessions ran at seven five hundred dollars. In 368 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: the words of a former member on the podcast Escaping 369 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: Nexium about her experience being ads or Dominus obsequious sororium 370 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: in Latin or master of the slave women. This was 371 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: a women's group advertised to her as a badass bitch 372 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: boot camp. Others said it was painted as a feminist 373 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: group desiring to help women deal with intimacy issues. The 374 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: former member on to describe how she was pressured by 375 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: her master, a woman she counted as a friend entrusted, 376 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: to get a brand when she was inducted, which she 377 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: only found out later included Ranier's initials. Getting the brand 378 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: required the woman to be naked, bound and taped like 379 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: filmed before they received it. They were supposed to say, 380 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: please brand me. It would be an and honor I 381 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: want to wear for the rest of my life. I 382 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: believe that was so they could prove that they consented. 383 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: The ex member described this whole process is similar to 384 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: the frog and the slowly boiling pot, incremental in stages, 385 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: cutting her off from support systems that may have helped her. 386 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: She said, you know, if you had told me I'd 387 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: be getting a brand at the beginning, I would have 388 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: said no way, But it just happened so slowly. Members 389 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: of DOS were also required to give up something as collateral, 390 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: like a video of them masturbating or confession of being 391 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: the victim of sexual abuse, off and false. Ranier once 392 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: said he believed women were easier to control, and he 393 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: would turn women against each other, especially if there was 394 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: any resistance sort defiance. So if you had a kind 395 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: of higher up position and you did something you didn't like, 396 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: he'd be like, well, I'll just go to her. She 397 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: doesn't complain. He was extremely controlling about their weights too. 398 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: So Mack was arrusted and federally indicted on charges like 399 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,959 Speaker 2: sex trafficking. She appealed, pleading guilty to two charges of racketeering, 400 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: and when Yer was sentenced to one hundred and twenty 401 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: years in prison in twenty nineteen for charges including exploiting 402 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: a child in possession of child pornography. Also something you 403 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: should know several women were behind taking when you're down. 404 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 2: I know that there's a whole documentary about that happening. 405 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, this just remind me, and I was telling Samantha 406 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: before we did this, we could do a whole episode 407 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: on just the level of misogyny involved in this one alone, 408 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: because a lot of people were like, how did kind 409 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: of that same idea? Ha? Did so many you know, 410 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: seemingly very smart women who get into this kind of 411 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: feminist camp. But it was just full of this toxic, 412 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 1: misogynistic ideas and it's really really fascinating. So I think 413 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: we could come back and revisit this one. But it 414 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: did remind me of things like Wickerman, where you like 415 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: send the women out to bring people back into your 416 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: I don't. 417 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 2: Know that one. That's one I don't know. 418 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: Well, you know about the bees, though not the bees, 419 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Samantha's giving me an empty like well, 420 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite. That's one of the most 421 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: well known Nicholas Cage memes. 422 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 2: I need to go back and look it up now. 423 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm missing out somehow, But yeah, I 424 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 2: mean one of the big things that was successful, again 425 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: we can get into this is the fact that he 426 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 2: did use women to recruit, and that's been a trick 427 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: from the beginning. We know this as kind of what's 428 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: happening within trafficking as well. We know a lot of 429 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: that happens to be typically people who are in that 430 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 2: life and being told this is great, let me tell 431 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: you how it'll change your life and it's not as 432 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: bad as you think, and they grow to trust because 433 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: just like in many schemes, you find for so many 434 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: people who trust women when it comes to that and 435 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 2: thinking that they're safe and they can defend themselves, kind 436 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: of that whole level. So there's a whole different conversation 437 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: in itself, and the tactics on recruiting, which again has 438 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 2: been used before in many ways. Again, this doesn't mean 439 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: women can't be cult leaders. And yeah, we'll get into 440 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 2: that after a quick break from a word from our sponsor. 441 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: And we're back, Thank you sponsor. Just a brief disclaimer, people, 442 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: including the women we're going to talk about, do still 443 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: argue about whether some, if not all, of these constitute 444 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: as cults. There are particular issues an racism, sexism, and yes, 445 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: any like anti anything but Christianity sentiment. But here are 446 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: some examples that commonly come up when you're talking about 447 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: women cult leaders. Let's start with one that might be 448 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: the most well known thanks to the Netflix documentary Wild 449 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: Wild Country Shila Burnsteel arm Anad Shila. Most well known 450 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: is that's probably very specific to when you were born, actually, 451 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: but for me, this is one that's up there. 452 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: I was gonna say this is one that I watched 453 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: for sure. 454 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: I remember when it came out. I didn't watch it, 455 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: but I just remember hearing people talk about it and 456 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: I was like, wait, this is a documentary, this really happened. Yeah, 457 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: and she is still just chilling. Yep, she is. So 458 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: she was technically the leader. As the personal assistant to 459 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: the Indian Guru of Rajniche Peram, Bagwan Shri Rajnich, she 460 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,479 Speaker 1: exerted a lot of control. She convinced him to purchase 461 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: the plot of land that would become Rajniche Peram, which 462 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: she later purchased herself. She was in charge of external communications, 463 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: big events the cults foundation. She controlled the diets and 464 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: clothing of members. Many suggest that she really ran pretty 465 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: much everything. The Rajniche movement was a combination of Western philosophy, 466 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: Eastern mysticism, and free love. At its peak, there were 467 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: thousands of members worldwide, many of them upper class white 468 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: people looking for enlightenment, and at one point the cult 469 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: was worth about sixty five million dollars. When they were 470 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: kicked out of India in nineteen eighty, they moved the 471 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: movement to Wasscow County in Oregon and built this mini city, 472 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: Rashniche Peram. Their neighbors viewed them as a dangerous sex cult. 473 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: The tensions between the locals and rajniche Peram escalated. There 474 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: was arson, integration, fraud, espionage, and arms race, all kinds 475 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: of things. 476 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: If you haven't watched it, you should because just the 477 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: interviews with the townspeople is entertaining. Eventually, Shilo went to 478 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 2: jail for thirty nine months for planning and carrying out 479 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 2: biological terrorism. No one was killed, but yeah, over seven 480 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: hundred people were poisoned in attempt to impact local election. 481 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 2: There's a whole thing about politics in Here's pretty interesting. 482 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: Sheila has fled to Europe, but was arrested in Germany 483 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty six and extradited to the US, where 484 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 2: she faced federal and state charges including wiretapping, attempted poisoning 485 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: separate from this one, bioteror event, immigration violations, and attempted murder. 486 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: And when people who lived at Rasenishpiram watched the Netflix documentary, 487 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: many of them expressed complete shock at how much power 488 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: Sheila wil died. Sheila herself had seemed surprised at the 489 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: parts of the documentary she watched, including when she escaped 490 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: Rajenichi Piram. And Rogenie said of her quote, she did 491 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: not prove to be a woman. She proved to be 492 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: a perfect bitch. But she said, in response to questions 493 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 2: about it, how can one's opinion change because someone said 494 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: something negative about me. I love the man, I still 495 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: love him, and for her it was and is always 496 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: about him more. She does a really good job of 497 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 2: making it look that way. I will say she is 498 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: an interesting and charismatic speaker when you watch her, because 499 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 2: she did a lot of media for the group, so 500 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 2: it was interesting for sure. 501 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: Yes, and she has a lot of really really good quotes. 502 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: Here's one. What does love have to do with sex? 503 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: We were taught to associate sex with love to compensate. 504 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: You feel sexual but are afraid to declare it. You 505 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: say I love you. In my life it has always 506 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: been separate. I can tell someone I want to go 507 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: to bed with them, I have no qualms about it 508 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: and enjoy being in bed. And if I love somebody, 509 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: I love somebody. They are two separate events and I 510 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: love this. When compared to Kelly and Conway, she said, no, 511 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: I don't allow that comparison. That much pride I have 512 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: has okay, And then she also said, in spite of 513 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: the guillotine, they haven't killed me yet. They haven't killed 514 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: my spirit. No matter where I go, I will always 515 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: wear the crown. I'm not afraid of being under guillotine. 516 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: She was talking about like, if you're in power, there's 517 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: always the threat of the guillotine, and this was what 518 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: she said. Yes, I like it and yeah. After the documentary, 519 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people admitted to loving Sheila, and some 520 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: even argued about whether or not she was a feminist 521 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: or a feminist figure. Her catchphrase was tough titties again. 522 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: Yes these days Sheila runs a care home in Switzerland 523 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: and remains unapologetic, saying that call it at Coults is 524 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: insulting and yeah, not to again, these are real people 525 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: and they were real ramifications, right, But she certainly was 526 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: charismatic and I think she was even on the cover 527 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: of some big magazine naked. Like she she was influential 528 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: and she controlled. She had a lot of power within 529 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: this right. 530 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: Some of the past members when talking about her is 531 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: obviously they were traumatized, but so some of them were 532 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: like she did this, Like she just kind of at 533 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 2: that level of like wow, the control or just the 534 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: background player that she was and surprised many people. So 535 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 2: it was really interesting to watch, so next we want 536 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: to talk about Talk John Hanmon, who was married to 537 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 2: the founder of the Korean New Age Unification Church, Sun 538 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: Young Moon. Founding in nineteen fifty four, The Unification Church 539 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 2: was at peak popularity in the nineteen seventies, perhaps reaching 540 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: fifty thousand members around the world despite boasting millions. Nineteen 541 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 2: seventy one is also the same year the Moon's moved 542 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 2: the church to the US. The church to advertise a 543 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: feeling of belonging, peace and love, tolerance, enlightenment, spirituality, and happiness. 544 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty, Sun married the then seventeen year old 545 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 2: Talk and they would go on to have several children together. 546 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: Sun claimed himself to be God's Messiah, meaning that his 547 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: words were the end all be all overwriting all other beliefs, thoughts, desires, feelings, etc. 548 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: Because of this, the church and Sun himself wielded massive 549 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: control over the members' lives. Some reports suggest that Moonies 550 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: may work up to twenty two hours a day while 551 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: fasting to a tone for their sins and Yeah. Mooney's 552 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: was a sort of derogatory term given to the followers 553 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: of this Unification Church. Guidelines around sexual behavior were very strict, 554 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: particularly regarding premarital sex and homosexuality, and these mass weddings, 555 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: and we're we're talking stadium sized events with up to 556 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: twenty five hundred couples getting married and forty thousand spectators. 557 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: This event called the Blessing, were a part of enforcing 558 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: these guidelines. Together, Son and Hawk were known as True 559 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: Father and True Mother, the true parents free from the 560 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: original sin. They later crowned themselves Emperor and Impress of 561 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: the Universe. And if I'm remembering correctly, twelve US Senators 562 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: were at that event at the time. Hawk is also 563 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: called Mother of Peace, the Perfect Woman, and the Bride 564 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: of Christ. Right. 565 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: So here's a description of one of the mass weddings 566 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 2: by Carlisle Murphy and Linda Willard that appeared in the 567 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven Washington Post article. The Reverend Moon and 568 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: his wife hawkjaw Han Moon, showing a flair reminiscent of 569 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: old Broadway musicals, held hands and descended a red carpet 570 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: staircase flaked by white road attendants. After a symbolic sprinkling 571 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 2: of water, they led couples in saying I do to 572 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: four pledges recited during the noontime blessings ninety seven ceremony, 573 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 2: among them a promise to quote inherit the tradition of 574 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: the Unification Church and pass its proud tradition down to 575 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: future generations of Unification families and to all mankind. When 576 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: the wedding and blessing portion of the program ended, Sun 577 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: Myung Moon and Huck Jahan Moons sat wrigally on two 578 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 2: thrones and were given two large bouquets and a trophy. 579 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 2: Neil Salonan, a church official who served as Master of ceremonies, 580 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: asked those assembled to think the Moons as is the 581 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 2: Asian custom, by bowing to the couple, and most stadium 582 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 2: attendees tilted at the waist wow. 583 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: The church made an unverified claim that three point six 584 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: million people participated in this worldwide. They were big on 585 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: really inflating those numbers. Most of the people married in 586 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: the ceremony had only met a few weeks prior, matched 587 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: by church officials. The church has no official capacity to 588 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: marry people, but many consider themselves spiritually married, and Whitney 589 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: Houston was supposed to sing at this but canceled due 590 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: to illness, as the story goes, at the last minute, 591 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,719 Speaker 1: so some of the crowd could be explained that way. 592 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: Maybe they were there to see Whitney Houston. Dian Worwick 593 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: was there to introduce ax Thom and Yes. While the 594 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: church does claim to have fifty thousand members in the 595 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: US alone, the numbers believed to be closer to a 596 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: few thousand at most. A devout anti communist, Son once 597 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: believed the US to be the world's beacon, but thinks 598 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: at least in part to financial woes. In the nineteen nineties, 599 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: he flipped, calling America quote Satan's harvest. He'd also gone 600 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: to jail in the US for eighteen months for charges 601 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: of tax fraud and conspiracy. Man, it's a hard flood 602 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: right there. 603 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 2: Han founded the Women's Federation of World Peace in nineteen 604 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: ninety two, an organization that promotes women working harder to 605 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: achieve peace in their communities. She spoke at the WFWP 606 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: event with former president George hw. Bush I said w 607 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 2: I feel like that's the way you do it in 608 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five, saying that her husband had to save 609 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 2: the US from quote the destruction of the family in 610 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 2: moral decay. Around the same time, her husband elevated her 611 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: right to be on par with her, so there's promotion. 612 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 2: In two thousand and five, Sun Moon and doctor Hawk 613 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: Moon founded the Universal Peace Foundation, which is considered a 614 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 2: NGO in general consultative status with the UN at twenty 615 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 2: twenty upf event, Hawk moons that the goals of the 616 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 2: organizations were to set up Korean War memorials in the 617 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: countries that don't have them, and to put together a 618 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: registry of anyone who made any sacrifices for Korea. By 619 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 2: my son died in twenty twelve. 620 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and perhaps clearly we're not really getting too much 621 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: in depth into the spiritual religious beliefs of these organizations, 622 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: but this church is considered an example of extreme indoctrinated religion. 623 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: The followers, yes, are often dismissed as Mooney's Hans stepped 624 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: into the leadership position of the church after Moon died. 625 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: Through her status, she has become a billionaire. Here's a 626 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: quote from a former member, Nasu Kang, from her nineteen 627 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: ninety eight book In the Shadow of the Moons, My 628 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: life in Reverend Sun Young Moon's family quote. Much has 629 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: been written about the coercion and brainwashing that takes in 630 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: the Unification Church. What I experienced was conditioning you are 631 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: isolated among like minded people. You are bombarded with messages 632 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: elevating obedience above critical thinking. Your belief system is reinforced 633 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: at every turn. You become invested in those beliefs the 634 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: longer you're associated with the church. After ten years, after 635 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: twenty years, who would want to admit even to herself 636 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: that her beliefs were built on sand? And I guess 637 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: they own the Washington Times, this Unification Church, or they 638 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: created it anyway. Some built up businesses business Empire in 639 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: South Korea and Japan, and then funneled his attention into nonprofits, 640 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: but only after he'd stacked their leadership with friends of his. 641 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: He was very right leaning and had a strong relationship 642 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: with the Republican Party in the United States. When Parents' 643 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: Day was signed into law in nineteen ninety five in 644 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: the US, some in the church took it as a 645 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: sign of how closely their relationship was with the US government. 646 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: So Pastor Jung Jen Sean Moon, one of their sons, 647 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 2: is a huge mega and gun guy, and started his 648 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 2: own church in twenty eighteen. He believes he's a rightful 649 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 2: leader of the Unification Church, but he lost to his 650 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 2: mother and his words. His father crowned him three times 651 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: as the era of parent, but Hawk was under the 652 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 2: impression she was meant to take over. And here's a 653 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 2: quote from Tess Owen over Advice about a festival his 654 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 2: church held in twenty nineteen. 655 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 1: Quote. 656 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 2: The festival held a safe space play area for kids 657 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: with signs reading gun free zone and trigger warning. Parents 658 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 2: laughed and snap pictures as their kids strangled pink unicorns 659 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 2: and pummeled rag dolls. The MC of the event was 660 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 2: Joey Gibson, the leader of the far right Patriot Prayer, 661 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 2: who is currently facing felony charges for his involvement in 662 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: the violent street brawl with Antifa in Portland, Oregon. There 663 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 2: was even a seminar about the cissification of American men. 664 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: I do remember that one. 665 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, that's so special, so Sean said about his mom. 666 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 2: She was taking the position of what was described in 667 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 2: the Bible as the Harley of Babylon position. That doesn't 668 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: mean I se you as a prostitute. 669 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: Okay, I love, I love so nice quick correction of 670 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean I see you as a prostitut. I'm 671 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: just saying, just say it. I'm just saying, we do 672 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: have some more examples for you listeners, but first we 673 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: have one more kick for word from our sponsor, and 674 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor, and we're back with Sylvia Mares. 675 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: In the early twenty tens, Sylvia Mares was the high 676 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: priestess of a cult trying to get in the good 677 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: word with a saint not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church, 678 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: Santa Muerte, our Holy Death. This saint is often depicted 679 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: as a skeletal grim reaper, sometimes described as the patron 680 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: saint of serial killers, and Mara's devoutly believed. There's not 681 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: too much out there on her, but what we do 682 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: know is she killed a friend of hers with an 683 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 1: ax in two thousand and nine. One of the followers, 684 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: ten year old family members was the next. Most of 685 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: the members of this cult were family members of Silvia's 686 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: and then the members would slit open the veins of 687 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: victims while they were still alive and drain their blood 688 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: into containers, and they would spread the blood on an 689 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: altar to Santamuerte, believing it would bring them good fortune. 690 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: In twenty twelve, Maris was sentenced to life in prison. 691 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: It's estimated two million people follow Santa Muerte in Mexico, 692 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: where the following of Santemirte is believed to have originated. 693 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,760 Speaker 1: Santa Marte was added to Mexico's list of registered religions 694 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three. So there's a lot of 695 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: back and forth about the cult status of the Santa 696 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: Marite following, and this is very specific to this woman 697 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: and her family for the most part in general. 698 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 2: So earlier in twenty twenty one, Anne Elizabeth Young or 699 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 2: mother Anna of Copcam, Georgia, so in our Neck of 700 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 2: the Woods, was sentenced to thirty years in prison in Florida. 701 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 2: Young ran a cult in the eighties and was charged 702 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 2: for second degree murder for a two year olds after 703 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 2: her mother gave him to the cult. He was left 704 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: in the closet without food and water, where he eventually died. 705 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 2: Young pled guilty to the fatal seizures of a two 706 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 2: year old girl caused by withholding her medication. 707 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: So sad. 708 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 2: Young owned four acres of land in Florida for the 709 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 2: House of the Prayer of the People, a so called 710 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 2: religious boarding school, and a place nicknamed the Town that 711 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 2: Time Forgot. Members wore roves and headcoverings, and the belief 712 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 2: system was a mixture of Old Testament ideologies and collectivism. 713 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 2: Young was controlling and obviously abusive, and when a seven 714 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 2: year old boy stole a piece of candy, she deemed 715 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 2: he should be punished with thirty three lashes in reference 716 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 2: to Jesus' age when he died on the cross. And 717 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two, the police investigated the group after 718 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 2: Young publicly bathed a twelve year old girl in the chemicals, 719 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 2: causing serious burns as she spent several months in a 720 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: severe burne unit. Anna's daughter Joy was one of the 721 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,439 Speaker 2: key people to bring her down, testifying against her after 722 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 2: an argument about how Joy was caring for our children 723 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 2: led to Joyce seeking justice for the children had died 724 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 2: under her mother's care. 725 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,879 Speaker 1: And we thought we would wrap up this part one 726 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: with the inspiration for this episode. A news item that 727 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: Samantha saw and brought to my attention. Recently, a man 728 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: in Colorado alerted the police that he'd found a mummified 729 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: body at quote some type of shrine. The body was 730 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: in case in a sleeping bag and Christmas lights, glitter, makeup, 731 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: circled eye sockets that appeared to be empty. The man 732 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: who brought this to the attention of the police. Was 733 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 1: a follower of Love Has Won, a religious group often 734 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,959 Speaker 1: described as a cult led by Amy Carlson or Amy 735 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 1: Carlson or the quote Mother God. Her body was believed 736 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: to be transported from California to Colorado. Seven members of 737 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: Love Has Won were charged with abuse of a corpse 738 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: and child abuse. Recent reports suggests no foul play, that 739 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: she was in poor health and drink a lot. Many 740 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: followers believe that she had quote ascended. She herself claims 741 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: that when she died, she would ascend to the fifth dimension. 742 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: Carlson founded Love Has Won around two thousand and six, 743 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 1: leaving behind her children to do so. She called it 744 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: a quote spiritual organization, and it was heavily informed by 745 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: New Age movements and ideas. The group offered items like 746 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: medicinal supplements and colloidal silver alongside sessions promising spiritual ascension. 747 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: At the head of it all was Carlson, who assured 748 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,760 Speaker 1: she could talk with angels, that she could cure cancer, 749 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: she could usher loved ones to other dimensions, or have 750 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: a great awakening for lost loved ones. Before the official 751 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: website went down, Carlson asserted on it that her past 752 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: lives included Marilyn Monroe and Jesus Christ, and that she 753 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: was on her quote five hundred and thirty fourth reincarnation 754 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: in my quest to recover my beloved planet. The cult 755 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: was very active online and that's one of the ways 756 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 1: that they targeted new followers. She lived with local followers 757 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: and one big house, but estimates put membership at thousands 758 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: when counting online members. Carlson engaged in several of the 759 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 1: abusive methods of control we've mentioned, and allegedly only let 760 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: members sleep four hours a day. There's also not too 761 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: much out there about this one, but some said that 762 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: the group made headlines recently when fourteen followers, including Carlson, 763 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: refused to adhere to MASK guidelines in Hawaii and appropriated 764 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: the culture, with Carlson claiming she was the Hawaiian Goddess 765 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: of fire, and police escorted them off the island. As 766 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: of this recording, officials are still waiting for the toxicology 767 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: report on her and to positively id the body, so 768 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: this is all ongoing right now. Her family claims that 769 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: towards the end, she was being brainwashed by her own 770 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: cult and other members of it. 771 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 2: Right, and I believe Vice has a documentary that they 772 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 2: did of the cult a while back, so it's interesting 773 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 2: to see if you want to watch any of that. 774 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, like we said, almost all of these have something 775 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: like a documentary or podcast out there. And not to 776 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 1: hammer this point home, but I think it's worth hammering 777 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: home that people still argue about whether or not all 778 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: of these constitutors cults and what why we label things 779 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: as cults, and so I know we were using cult 780 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: kind of interchangeably throughout, but just very very aware and 781 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: acknowledge that that is it's a ongoing conversation. Well, in 782 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: the meantime, this was only part one, and we have 783 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: some more for you in part two, so keep an 784 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: eye out for that. In the meantime, if you would 785 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 1: like to contact us, you can. You can email us 786 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: atuff Medium, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com, or you 787 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You 788 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: can also find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never 789 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: Told You. Thanks. It's always to our super producer Christina, 790 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 1: thank you, and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I 791 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: Never Told You is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 792 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,959 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever 793 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.