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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. One of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: to do, particularly when I'm back home down in New

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Speaker 1: Orleans and my family down the are is if I

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Speaker 1: ever have an opportunity, I love to go visit old homes,

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Speaker 1: particularly those that are opened during the holiday season. You

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Speaker 1: really get to appreciate the beauty of them because the

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Speaker 1: homes down there are so very old, and you can

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Speaker 1: tell that people love them at one point in time

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Speaker 1: or loved the idea of them. They dumped a lot

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Speaker 1: of money into them, maybe one hundred and fifty maybe

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Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy five years ago. It comes through,

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Speaker 1: It kind of echoes down through time and you can

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Speaker 1: see where people lived a life. I think that that's

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Speaker 1: quite remarkable. It really is. It's not like something that

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Speaker 1: was thrown up recently, you know, and has no I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I guess the word is patina on it.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's a dwelling that people existed in. But today,

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Speaker 1: I gotta say, there is a homicide that has occurred

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Speaker 1: inarguably one of the wealthiest areas in the Metro Detroit

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Speaker 1: City area up there, and it involves an old house,

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Speaker 1: a house that was renowned a house that was loved

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Speaker 1: and a house that was known for hospitality, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I think truly that's one of the great things that

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Speaker 1: truly makes a home an inviting place. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk today about the homicide of doctor DeVaughn Hoover. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.

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Speaker 2: Dave.

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Speaker 1: I started reading this story about doctor Hoover up in Detroit,

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Speaker 1: and we hear a lot about Detroit and how dangerous

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Speaker 1: it is and for a long long time, and I

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Speaker 1: feel I feel sorry because Detroit is one of the

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Speaker 1: grand cities of America. It was for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and there was a lot of wealth up there for

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Speaker 1: a long long time, and you can still see remnants

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Speaker 1: of that if you ever visit visit Detroit, you go

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Speaker 1: out by the lake and you see some of these

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Speaker 1: mansions that people in dwelled all those years ago, that

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Speaker 1: had just wealth that many of us cannot even begin

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Speaker 1: to imagine. And I think that that's what we're dealing

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Speaker 1: with here, we're talking about I don't know if the

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Speaker 1: term palatial is appropriate here, but it's certainly striking. This

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Speaker 1: home is it's up there. As my granny used to say,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to have to push a vacuum cleaner

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Speaker 1: through it.

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Speaker 2: Well, boy, nine bedrooms, twelve thousand square feet, beautiful home,

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Speaker 2: but it is not a new mansion that was thrown

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Speaker 2: up in the last six months. Doctor Devon Hoover is

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Speaker 2: one of these men that people have nothing bad to say.

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Speaker 1: Nothing.

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Speaker 2: You can find something negative about anybody, but when it

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Speaker 2: comes to doctor Devon Hoover, he was loved by his patients,

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Speaker 2: He was loved by his neighbors. One of his neighbors

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Speaker 2: said that when he first bought the house, that it

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Speaker 2: was doctor Hoover who came over and introduced himself and said, now,

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Speaker 2: if you haven't owned an older, big home before, there

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Speaker 2: are some things you need to know. And he said

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Speaker 2: that they became friends because he hadn't owned a home

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Speaker 2: like that, and they do require a lot more attention

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Speaker 2: than you're used to doing around a home. The payoff,

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Speaker 2: of course, as you mentioned palatial, that was actually how

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Speaker 2: the home was referred to, and doctor Hoover opened it

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Speaker 2: up to the community to raise money for all types

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Speaker 2: of charities and things that needed attention. He opened his

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Speaker 2: doors and said do it here, it's my place, and

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Speaker 2: doctor Hoover, he's a neurosurgeon, which Joe, just give me

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Speaker 2: the run of a new explanation of what is a neurosurgeon.

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Speaker 1: The way I look at specialties in medicine one of

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Speaker 1: the ways that many people that either work in medicine

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Speaker 1: or work around the periphery of medicine. When you hear

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Speaker 1: what the occupation is of any particular physician, you want

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Speaker 1: to know what they're specially is, so you know, you

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Speaker 1: can have like internal medicine people, you can have mergency

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Speaker 1: room doctors, you can have psychiatrists, you can have orthopedic specialists.

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to neurosurgery, if you're measuring it

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Speaker 1: by the length of time that it takes to make

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Speaker 1: it through your postdoctoral training, your residency in medicine, it's probably,

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Speaker 1: to say the very least the most robust. So just

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Speaker 1: imagine it this way. You've probably done four years as

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Speaker 1: an undergraduate, and you've got a bachelor's degree and more

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Speaker 1: than likely pre med or biology or chemistry or biochem

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Speaker 1: or some science. Then you go to medical school. Well

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Speaker 1: that's going to take you four years right well, dependent

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Speaker 1: upon the program at minimum. When you're talking about neurosurgery,

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Speaker 1: that this is after you've completed your four years in

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Speaker 1: medical school. You're staring down the barrel of at least

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Speaker 1: at minimum six years. Just wrap your brain around that

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Speaker 1: for a second. You're talking about six plus years. And

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Speaker 1: some do subspecialties once they are complete with an actual

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Speaker 1: neurosurgery residency. And there are some people that will do

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Speaker 1: let me see how kind of break it down, they'll

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Speaker 1: do like a general surgery residency, which is a few

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Speaker 1: years in and of itself, is rather robust itself, and

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Speaker 1: then they'll go into neurosurgery. There are some people that

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Speaker 1: will do neurosurgery, and there are certain people that are

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Speaker 1: also neurologists, which is different as well. They treat people

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Speaker 1: externally for head trauma and spinal trauma and those sorts

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Speaker 1: of things, kind of measuring if you've ever had concussion

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Speaker 1: or something like that, and the doctor comes in and

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Speaker 1: they're checking your neuro response and they'll say, here, squeeze

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Speaker 1: my fingers. How many fingers am I holding up? And

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Speaker 1: they'll do all these measurements, and they'll do imaging and

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Speaker 1: all that sort of thing. Well, doctor Hoover, he would

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Speaker 1: have had to do all of that. Plus he's actually

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Speaker 1: the guy that goes in and operates on the brain,

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Speaker 1: and in his particular case, he specialized in the neck

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Speaker 1: and in the spine, and so that's his area. So

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Speaker 1: if you had any kind of spinal trauma or neck trauma,

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Speaker 1: which spine neck essentially the same thing where you have

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Speaker 1: the brain stem that comes out of the backside of

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Speaker 1: the brain, all right, and then it turns literally turns

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Speaker 1: into the spinal cord that stands down through the cervical

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Speaker 1: vertebra and then through the thoracic vertebra the lumbar and

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Speaker 1: so it controls It's kind of like the neuro pathway.

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Speaker 1: It's the big highway that controls all of the little

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Speaker 1: nerve endings that extend out through the body. So at

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Speaker 1: any of those levels, you've see people that are say paraplegics,

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Speaker 1: are quiteplegics, and dependent upon where those injuries have taken

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Speaker 1: place on the spine dictates how their body is going

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Speaker 1: to be compromised. So he would go in and these

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Speaker 1: people are fascinating to me, and they're having to do

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Speaker 1: like microsurgery on these very very delicate tissues. That's how

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Speaker 1: skilled this guy was.

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Speaker 2: All I can think of is when Judge smells, looks

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Speaker 2: at Danny and Caddy Shack and says, well, the world

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Speaker 2: needs ditch diggers too. Boy, that's where I am. If

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Speaker 2: I was faced with those choices, Joe, I would be

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Speaker 2: on the ditch diggers side. But I don't even understand

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Speaker 2: two thirds of what you just said.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with ditchdiggers man, And as Judge Smail says,

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Speaker 1: the world needs them. But the thing about doctor Hoover,

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Speaker 1: the fact that he did this, he was essentially married

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Speaker 1: to his work. And you'll find many people that are

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Speaker 1: like this, that operate at that high level. There's no

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Speaker 1: way I could do it. I don't have the intellectual capability.

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Speaker 1: And you know sometimes that this is what's amazing about him.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not saying it's the case with every neurosurgeon.

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Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, don't misquote me. Many times they're

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Speaker 1: so very intense. Have you ever met somebody that's so

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Speaker 1: very intellectually intense that it almost seems like they'll brush

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Speaker 1: you off, or they don't have time for you, or

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Speaker 1: maybe they don't have a good bedside manner if they're

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Speaker 1: a physician. That's not Devon Hoover. He had a way

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Speaker 1: about him that his patients, these people that he treated,

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Speaker 1: genuinely liked this guy. And by extension, he's got this

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Speaker 1: beautiful home that he's probably dumped. You can only imagine

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Speaker 1: how much money, because it's not just once you have

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Speaker 1: an old home, just to upkeep alone, and can you

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Speaker 1: imagine on twelve thousand square feet just to upkeep along

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Speaker 1: is a real burden. But he's inviting people to his home.

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Speaker 1: He was regarded as kind of a warm, hospitable person.

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Speaker 1: And the horror of this case is the fact that

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Speaker 1: the house is the side of this a place that

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Speaker 1: probably brought a lot of joy. I can only age

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Speaker 1: and just looking at this place externally, how beautiful this

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Speaker 1: thing would have been decorated, probably at Christmas time. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it was striking. It was probably if they have

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Speaker 1: a tour of homes, it was probably on the tour

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Speaker 1: of homes warm and inviting. And it's something so horrible

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Speaker 1: could happen to this man that was so beloved and

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Speaker 1: so skilled at what he did. And it's not just

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Speaker 1: hospitality and his outreach to the community. It's the fact

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Speaker 1: that Dave he could go in and he could actually

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Speaker 1: aid in the repair and recovery of people that had

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Speaker 1: sustained catastrophic injuries. Every article that I have read about

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Speaker 1: doctor Hoover's homicide has included the word, and it's a

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Speaker 1: compound word, crawl space. That word sends a chill up

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Speaker 1: my spine every time I hear it, because I got

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Speaker 1: to tell you, the first thing I think about when

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Speaker 1: I hear crawl space is John Wayne Gacy. I always

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Speaker 1: think about the bodies that were buried beneath his house

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Speaker 1: in the crawl space, when he victimized all those young

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Speaker 1: men for so many years. But that's not the case

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Speaker 1: in doctor Hoover's homicide. He's actually found Dave in a

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Speaker 1: unique location, in this beautiful home. He's found in the

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Speaker 1: attic crawl space.

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Speaker 2: This is a man who lives alone, fifty three year old.

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Speaker 2: He is single. He's a single minded kind of fella.

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Speaker 2: He was born in Indiana. He was the fourth child

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Speaker 2: of seven and he was the only boy in his family.

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Speaker 2: Before he went to college, he worked on a dairy farm.

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Speaker 2: The guy that became one of the best of the

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Speaker 2: best neurosurgeon. His family and friends were a priority in

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Speaker 2: his life. There was a quote from his obituary he

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Speaker 2: rarely missed a Hoover family event, and made the drive

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Speaker 2: to Indiana frequently to visit his parents and sisters, often

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Speaker 2: playing with his many nieces and nephews. He spent quality

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Speaker 2: time with many friends and enjoyed traveling with them to

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Speaker 2: unique places around the world. Now, when you put that

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Speaker 2: with what we talked about, how his neighbors talked about him.

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Speaker 2: One neighbor actually said for a man small in stature,

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Speaker 2: he was indeed larger than life. Yet he didn't show

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Speaker 2: up for a family event in Indiana as expected, and

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Speaker 2: because he was always in tune with his family, when

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Speaker 2: he didn't show up, the family called for the police

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Speaker 2: to go by. Police show up at this palatial home,

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Speaker 2: this twelve thousand square foot nine bedroom estate that was

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Speaker 2: a showplace, and they saw enough that led them to

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Speaker 2: find him. You mentioned crassbas in the attic. How does

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Speaker 2: a fifty three year old man with no enemies end

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Speaker 2: up dead in the attic?

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Speaker 1: Cross base. At the time of our taping here, we

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Speaker 1: still don't know who did this. Okay, they released a

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Speaker 1: bit of tantalizing information here, and I'm so glad you

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Speaker 1: picked up on this. They said that he was not

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Speaker 1: just dragged to this location where his body was finally found, David.

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Speaker 1: They said he was dragged face down, and you're thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: how can you actually arrive at that conclusion. That information

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Speaker 1: is actually coming from the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is one of the most storied offices

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Speaker 1: in the history of forensic pathologists. This is actually the

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Speaker 1: place where doctor Werner Spitz did a lot of his work.

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Speaker 1: And doctor Spitz is one of the co authors of

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Speaker 1: what we regard as our bible in forensic science medical

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Speaker 1: legal investigation of death, and it was first published back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six. So the place that did his examination,

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Speaker 1: that did the examination on doctor Hoover's remains, is a

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Speaker 1: top location for assessment of trauma, okay, as it applies

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Speaker 1: to post mortem assessment. And what they're saying is that

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Speaker 1: he was found in this crawl space, but he had

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Speaker 1: been drug there face down. So when people are saying

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Speaker 1: drug face down, first off, what are we thinking, Well,

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Speaker 1: we're thinking that perhaps there was some kind of manifestation

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Speaker 1: on his body that would give an indication first off,

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Speaker 1: that he was drug Well, how do we conclude that, Well,

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Speaker 1: if blood is streaked in a particular way, Okay, perhaps

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Speaker 1: that's the case. Say that it's on one contact surface

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Speaker 1: and not on the other, and you have this kind

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Speaker 1: of strided appearance of say, for instance, blood that's been

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Speaker 1: left behind. And when I say strided, that literally means streaks, okay,

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Speaker 1: or kind of linear streaks. Another thing, was there any

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Speaker 1: kind of post mortem trauma to the body? Well, what

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Speaker 1: would that mean? Well, the body can be scraped in

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Speaker 1: a post mortem state. You can actually knock away the

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Speaker 1: top layer of skin that won't have the same kind

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Speaker 1: of abrasian appearance that we have during life, where it

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Speaker 1: becomes red and irritated. And we've all fallen at some

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Speaker 1: point in our time and skinned our knees or skinned

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Speaker 1: our elbows, and we know what an abrasion looks like.

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Speaker 1: And of course we know that the dead don't bruise,

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Speaker 1: but you can have markings on a body that would

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Speaker 1: give you an indication of some kind of what we

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Speaker 1: refer to as post mortem trauma. Now, a third way

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Speaker 1: that this could happen, and perhaps one of the most

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Speaker 1: chilling is that we wonder well had post mortem changes

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Speaker 1: begun to take place to the point where there was

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Speaker 1: a reorientation of the body from where it had initially

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Speaker 1: laid to where it was only found resting. And what

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Speaker 1: I mean by that, one of the things that we

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Speaker 1: would look for is deposition of post mortem lividity. In

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Speaker 1: other words, that settling of blood. Did you have, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, a presentation where the blood had settled on

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Speaker 1: the front side of the body, Okay, what's referred to

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Speaker 1: as the anterior aspect, And maybe there was no presentation

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Speaker 1: on the back, but yet you've got post mortem trauma

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Speaker 1: on the back that gives you an indication that they

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Speaker 1: were initially laying in one position and then drug vis

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Speaker 1: v the other side of the body. It could be

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Speaker 1: flip flopped either way. So we don't know a lot

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Speaker 1: right now at this point to kind of put a

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Speaker 1: fine point on that. But the reason that's so chilling

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Speaker 1: is you begin to think, well, whoever did this to him,

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Speaker 1: and what they did to him was quite shocking. Whoever

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Speaker 1: did this to him? Did they sit there with a

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Speaker 1: body while post mortem changes began to take place, and

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Speaker 1: that there was evidence regarding that on the examination of

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Speaker 1: the body at the scene. Was that measured in any way?

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Speaker 1: Because what's key here is kind of and I always

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Speaker 1: fall back to this as the post mortal interval that

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Speaker 1: time that has elapsed since doctor Hoover unfortunately drew his

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Speaker 1: last breath to the point in which he was moved,

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Speaker 1: and then beyond that to the point in which he

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Speaker 1: was discovered. How long had he actually been down? And

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Speaker 1: that's going to be key in this case. Who would

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Speaker 1: have access to him in this grand home in which

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Speaker 1: he dwells. Who would purpose to do this kind of

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Speaker 1: harm to this man that had done so much for

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Speaker 1: so many people over the years, who was beloved, Who

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Speaker 1: would traumatize him to this degree? We do know this,

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Speaker 1: whoever perpetrated this crime felt comfortable enough to take a

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Speaker 1: handgun and shoot doctor Hoover execution style in the head twice.

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Speaker 1: But when you see a big house, you ride by

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Speaker 1: it and you look at it, at least I do,

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Speaker 1: and I think, you know, what in the world goes

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Speaker 1: on in there? You think, what kind of history in

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Speaker 1: dwells those walls, What has that structure born witness to

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Speaker 1: over the years. And when I think attic in a

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Speaker 1: big home like that, you always think of some kind

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Speaker 1: of scary movie or something where you've got mannequins, you know,

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Speaker 1: in dwelling the area and old boxes and all that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. But you know, I think that the

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Speaker 1: attic in this place was probably a storage location that

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Speaker 1: doctor Hoover would have gone into regularly. He's probably always

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Speaker 1: decorating his home. Certainly, you thinking around the holidays, he's

294
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Speaker 1: going to be inviting people over. Maybe kept his his

295
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Speaker 1: Christmas decorations or Easter decorations or those sorts of things

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Speaker 1: up in the attic so you'd have easy access to them.

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Speaker 2: Joe, let me back up for a second. Let me

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Speaker 2: get back to this. I'm curious as to how this happens,

299
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Speaker 2: and you're going to have to fill in the blanks.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: We've got doctor Hoover, his family asks the police to

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Speaker 2: go by and do a welfare check. When they get there,

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Speaker 2: we don't know if there was anybody there when they

304
00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 2: got there. We know the police said there was no

305
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 2: forced entry, and they believe that doctor Hoover knew who

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Speaker 2: did this to him. So staying with that, I'm trying

307
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,320
Speaker 2: to picture what did the police see when they got

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Speaker 2: in there that led them to the attic, Because obviously

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Speaker 2: you mentioned the person that did this, they felt comfortable

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Speaker 2: enough in the home to shoot him dead in one

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Speaker 2: place and to drag his body you mentioned face down.

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Speaker 2: I mean, who does that if you care about somebody,

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Speaker 2: even if you have done this, all I could think

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Speaker 2: of is dragging this person upstairs with his head hitting

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Speaker 2: every stair along the way.

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Speaker 1: You know, you hear us talk a lot in forensics

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Speaker 1: about drag marks and those sorts of things. As I

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Speaker 1: had mentioned, or I had alluded to, doctor Hoover sustained

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Speaker 1: massive head trauma. He actually sustained two gunshot wounds to

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Speaker 1: the head.

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Speaker 2: One of those wasn't closed and the other one was

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Speaker 2: how do they know that, Joe? How do they determine this.

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Speaker 1: The way this is determined? First off, if you look

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Speaker 1: at the one that they're referring to as an indeterminate distance,

325
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Speaker 1: which what that means is it's and dependent upon the

326
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Speaker 1: weapon that's used. You have to kind of qualify that

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Speaker 1: when you say that anything that's essentially about eighteen inches

328
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Speaker 1: away from the point of impact, you're not going to

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Speaker 1: have any kind of sid deposition or powder deposition around

330
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Speaker 1: the wound. You're certainly not going to have what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as like a gas injury, where you'll get kind

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Speaker 1: of a stell eight wound that you see with like

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Speaker 1: press contact stell eight like stellar. Okay, that's where it

334
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: comes from. Star shape here people say star shaped wound

335
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 1: because skin kind of tears when that happens. Well, you're

336
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Speaker 1: not going to have that presentation with indeterminate range. That

337
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: means that they will be shot from some distance and

338
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 1: you don't know. You still don't know anything about sequencing.

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Speaker 1: Some people will say, well, they've shot at a distance

340
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Speaker 1: and then someone moves in and shoots them close. Well,

341
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 1: you don't know that. You can have individuals that are

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Speaker 1: actually executed with a contact gunshot wound and then just

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Speaker 1: for the coup de gra if you will, in this

344
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Speaker 1: person's mind, they're going to shoot them again. And this

345
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Speaker 1: is as they've moved away from the body. So you

346
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Speaker 1: can't there's no way you can go back and look

347
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Speaker 1: at this and say well, this was actually the sequence

348
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Speaker 1: of events, unless you just have somebody that just pops

349
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Speaker 1: up and says, well, this is what happened. But no

350
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,679
Speaker 1: evidence of that distant wound. But the other wound that

351
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 1: they talk about, there's actually a muzzle imprint that's left behind.

352
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Speaker 1: And what that means is that when the muzzle of

353
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Speaker 1: the weapon, that means the end of the barrel actually

354
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 1: contacts the surface of the skin, you will get an

355
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 1: impression and it's really impressive to see from a forensic standpoint.

356
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:10,120
Speaker 1: You can actually see an impression of the structure of

357
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 1: the barrel underneath many times, and sometimes you'll actually see

358
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: a circular ring around the area as well. That will

359
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 1: lead you to conclude that this weapon was so close

360
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 1: that when it was discharged with such force, it actually

361
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Speaker 1: left an imprint on the skin of the end of

362
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Speaker 1: the weapon. And it's almost like a negative image, you

363
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, like a photograph, And so that

364
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: gives you proximity, doesn't it in that particular case, And

365
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: it also gives you an indication of intimacy that this

366
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Speaker 1: individual whoever fired this weapon had the ability to get

367
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Speaker 1: that close to doctor Hoover when they discharge the weapon.

368
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 1: And when you begin to think about things like intimacy.

369
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: Here's something that's quite interesting from an investigative standpoint. When

370
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 1: he's found, he's found unclosed. Now he's covered in several

371
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: layers of blankets. I think there's a carpet that's involved

372
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Speaker 1: that he was covered with. But when we are nude,

373
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: we are at our most vulnerable because you're not covered,

374
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 1: your shame involved perhaps or they've made you take your

375
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Speaker 1: clothes off at gunpoint. And this is kind of a

376
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: dehumanization thing that takes place many times. So you've got

377
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: him in the state, and he's in the state when

378
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: he is found. Back to how they began to understand

379
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: what the point of origin is, and that is where

380
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: the event may have taken place. There's no indication of that,

381
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: but they know that he was drug so that tells

382
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: us that there's evidence that there is perhaps a blood

383
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 1: trail leading to the attic. And one thing that really

384
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Speaker 1: resonates with me, David, correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't

385
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 1: you make reference to the fact that he was diminutive

386
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Speaker 1: in size. He's kind of a smaller guy.

387
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 2: A neighbor had said that for a man small in stature,

388
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 2: he was indeed larger than life, So that makes us

389
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 2: he was not a big man.

390
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So where are you going to drag him unless

391
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: perhaps you've dehumanized him, where you're going to treat him

392
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 1: like an animal that you shot, or that the person

393
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: that did this may not have the physical strength to

394
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: put their hands or put their arms beneath them and

395
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: cradle them or maybe they just find this level of

396
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: trauma and gore, because it would have been a significant

397
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 1: amount of gored. And when I say that, I mean

398
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: because anytime there's trauma to the head where you have

399
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: blood and certainly many times you'll have brain matter that's

400
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 1: actually extruding through the head through the injuries, people might

401
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: not want to get that on themselves. So maybe that's

402
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: the reason you drug him up there. Here's the thing.

403
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: Whoever put him in that location, they knew about that location.

404
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 1: They knew that that attic cross space existed. That's intimate knowledge.

405
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 2: And the fact that I want to go back to

406
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: the gunshots to the head because you made a couple

407
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 2: of statements there, and I'm curious because we do have

408
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: two shots, and according to to the police report or

409
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: the autopsy, he had abrasions on his face suggesting he

410
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: was in a prone position with the left side of

411
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,479
Speaker 2: his face resting against some kind of surface when he

412
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 2: was shot. Could they determine, based on this and other factors,

413
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: were both of these shots potentially fatal or was one shot?

414
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 2: Could you determine that this shot wounded in but this

415
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: was the kill shot?

416
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, Perhaps anytime the head is involved and gunfire is involved,

417
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: you're going to have certainly the potential for fatal trauma.

418
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: It's the one area of the body where even a

419
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: glancing gunshot wound to the head can lead to a

420
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: fatal outcome. The trick is and kind of the measure

421
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 1: that forensic pathologists will look at this on balance. Most

422
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: of the time they'll say, well, what created the most

423
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: trauma in this particular case. They'll look at one injury

424
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: and they say, is this potentially a survivable injury? Say,

425
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: if it just clipped one area of the brain, if

426
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: he had gotten medical treatment, could he have survived this?

427
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: Whereas with the other one, maybe it passed through an

428
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: area that controls the autonomic nervous system. Okay, where you

429
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: just know that heartbeat is going to see, respiration is

430
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: going to cease. All is so traumatic And not to

431
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: mention if there's a muzzle stamp on this one injury,

432
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: you're not just going to have dave the gunshot wound,

433
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: which is bad enough that you're dealing with that's going

434
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: to create this channel through the brain. You're also going

435
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: to be fighting against things like say, for instance, the

436
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: bone being blown apart in there, and it creates additional

437
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: little satellite fragments are shrapnel. Bone trapnel actually is what

438
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: it turns out to be, and so it injures the

439
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: brain in that way. And also you have to factor

440
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: in if it's that close, you might have gas injuries.

441
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: So with the gas injuries, you have hot gas, and

442
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 1: we all know what hot gas does. It rapidly expands,

443
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: it goes into the cranial vault, and you'll have this

444
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: massive fracturing that takes place in the skull. So you've

445
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: gotten multiple things that multiple layers here that are occurring

446
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: that any number of these scenes could be fatal in

447
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: and of himself.

448
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 2: Now we know that he was wrapped in a blank

449
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: you mentioned this, and the actual order they said that

450
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: he was wrapped in a sheet, then carpeting or then

451
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 2: a rug, and then carpeting was laid over the top

452
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: of his body in that cross space. And we know

453
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: that he was shot and killed when he was naked

454
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: with one sock dark sock on his foot. You mentioned

455
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 2: being humiliated by being nude and being taken down like this.

456
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: Would there have been when the police are on the

457
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: scene trying to figure everything out, would they be taking

458
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: like clippings under his fingernails to see if there was

459
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: a little bit of a fight or anything.

460
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, they would, and typically that's going to happen at

461
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: the more people will see us at scenes where we

462
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: bag the hands, and we've talked about that in previous episodes.

463
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: But our hands are those things through which we defend.

464
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: It's those things through which we just from a tactile

465
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: sense that we sense the world around us. I mean

466
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: even the small children. We're touching things. Okay, it's an

467
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: extension of our brain essentially, and we're touching things and

468
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: that information is coming in. So the hands are bagged

469
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: traditionally at the scene, and then when we get the

470
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: body into a controlled environment at the morgue, we'll do

471
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: nail scrapings. Okay, we'll do the nail scrapings. We'll catch

472
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: all of the debris that are under the fingernails because

473
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: this is a very intimate event. Remember he's nude. And

474
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: then we'll do nail clippings to look if anything is

475
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: there in the clippings themselves. And they will probably believe

476
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: it or not, they would probably do a gunshot residue

477
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: test on his hands. People might not think about that,

478
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: but we actually do to see if, for instance, if

479
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: there was any way let's say, say, for instance, the

480
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds to the back of the head, which we

481
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: think that it approximates. Those two gunshot ones are essentially

482
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: in the rear word areas of the head. If he's

483
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 1: got his hands up okay, behind his head, and he

484
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: shot in the head, that can be a valuable piece

485
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: of information as to his posture, what his relationship was

486
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 1: with the individual that shot him, a physical relationship from

487
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: the end of the muzzle to his body, and you

488
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: might have soot deposition on the hands, so you'll do that.

489
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: And of course here's the most glaring thing many people

490
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: don't actually think about. Dave. I don't know if you've

491
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: thought about this, but even though he's a male, he's nude.

492
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: Guess what we're gonna do. Actually gonna do a rape kit.

493
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: We're gonna do rape kit on him. And some people

494
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: don't think that we do those on males, but we do.

495
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: We actually do.

496
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: It actually makes sense when you think about the fact

497
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: that he is naked and rolled up in a blanket.

498
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: If he was shot in the back of the head

499
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: due to a bad debt and left you, they wouldn't

500
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: take trouble to hide him or neils, because obviously whoever

501
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: did this Joe did not take a lot of time

502
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 2: to clean up or anything else. Because police were able

503
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: to go there on a welfare check and find his

504
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: body in the attic. They were able to do that

505
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 2: in a welfare check, So obviously they didn't walk in

506
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: and go, hey, everything looks fine here.

507
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: And turn around taking it on the heel. No, no, no,

508
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: they saw evidence of something had occurred in this environment.

509
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: And I'm sure it was quite horrific when these police

510
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: officers showed up and they're looking through the house or

511
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: doing a safety check. It's a welfare check. They can

512
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: you imagine if it's two of them. I have this

513
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: vision in my mind, this image in my mind of

514
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: one guy looking at the other guy and saying, Oh,

515
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: this doesn't look good. And then they followed the blood

516
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: trail and it leads into some small door up in

517
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: the attic area, and there they find his remains in there.

518
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: And here's a big piece. Remember what you said early on,

519
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: they said there was no signs of forced entry at

520
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: this place, so that gives you an indication that the

521
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: individual may have been there before that they knew the doctor.

522
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: And also we go back to this idea of covering

523
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: up the body. Why do you want to cover the body?

524
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: What's your purpose for? You just executed this man. Why

525
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: are you going to go and not just covering once

526
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: you're going to layer him. It's almost like you're tucking

527
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: him in. Why are you going to put all these

528
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: layers on top of him? What's your purpose? You're trying

529
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: to hide him. Well, we know that you've taken him

530
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: to the crawl space up there, but why go to

531
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: all of that trouble again? If his face was covered,

532
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: we can assume that it was. Many times, face covering

533
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: is associated with an intimate act because the individual does

534
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: not want to look the individual in the face that

535
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: they've just done this great harm to.

536
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: Oh, now that makes sense. I'm actually I was confused

537
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: about how a guy that is naked with one sock on,

538
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: shot twice in the head, then drug on his face

539
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: up to his what will be a temporary final resting place.

540
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 2: But then the perpetrator takes the time to roll him

541
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: up in three layers of blanket and carpet and then

542
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: placing him in this cross space so that he's covered up.

543
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: After this humiliation and devastating act.

544
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I got to tell you, Dave, I have

545
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: real hope in this case that they're going to find

546
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: out who did this. I know that they have taken

547
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: somebody into custody, they had to release them, but they

548
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: have taken one person into custody and questioned them and

549
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: subsequently released them. What's this area like, Well, we've determined

550
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: that doctor Hoover's home is quite fine. It's quite palatial.

551
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: As we said when we started this conversation, I would

552
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: think that there would be security cameras around this area,

553
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: and I would think that if the police went around

554
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: and they were to collect footage. Now, a lot of

555
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: this is going to be depended upon the time of

556
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: day when it happened, they might be able to collect

557
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: an image. And of course, as we know in all

558
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: cases like this, that as you begin to work the case,

559
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: you extend outward. Who are the intimates in his life,

560
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: Who has he had recent contact with, Who has he

561
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: had a beef with, who has he maybe been in

562
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: a relationship with, who would want to absolutely destroy this

563
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: fine man? H I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

564
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: Bodybacks