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Speaker 1: Alsome Media.

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Speaker 2: Ah, we're back. This is Behind the Bastards, a podcast

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Speaker 2: about terrible people. And in part one of the story

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Speaker 2: of Robert Maxwell killing Maxwell's dad, he was pretty fucking rad.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately we're now going into part two where it's

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Speaker 2: wild that this is like an episode where our bastard

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Speaker 2: commits several war crimes, and we're not angry about the

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Speaker 2: war crimes really like, it's the other stuff he's gonna

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Speaker 2: do that sucks well and with us once again is

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Speaker 2: the great Adam Conover. Adam, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 2: How you doing, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: I'm just so excited to hear more stories of our

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Speaker 3: cool friend Abraham Robert Ivan, private, private, private, yes, oh

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Speaker 3: oh oh. The best one was Leslie Leslie, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 3: And he's just a he's just a great guy. He's

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Speaker 3: just murdering a few more Nazis than you should. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's not great, but you know, you know, he's taking

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Speaker 3: his revenge.

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Speaker 2: It's forgivable, yes and understandable. Part two is going to

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Speaker 2: be less so, although don't worry, he still does get

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Speaker 2: to kill one more Nazi, so we've got that going

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Speaker 2: for us. So the immediate aftermath of the Big Dub

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Speaker 2: Dub Dose was a busy time for Robert Maxwell. He

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Speaker 2: taught himself Russian, assuming spycraft would be a lucrative part

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Speaker 2: of his future. He's like, number one, I'm pretty good

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Speaker 2: with languages. Number two, I bet living in Berlin knowing

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Speaker 2: Russian is going to be lucrative very soon. And he

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Speaker 2: is correct about that. And then he kind of goes

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Speaker 2: he takes like a break from his like like a

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Speaker 2: leave of absence, and travels alone to war torn Prague

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Speaker 2: to try and track down the survivors of his family,

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Speaker 2: and he gets nothing but bad news. Really, he is

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Speaker 2: particularly scarred to hear that his nineteen year old sister, Shinya,

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Speaker 2: had been arrested in Budapest and likely shot and then

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Speaker 2: tossed into the river. One older and one younger sister survived.

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Speaker 2: His younger sister was actually rescued directly by Raoul Wallenberg,

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Speaker 2: who we've covered in our one of our Reverse Bastards episodes. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Wallenberg in Budapest was like writing, I think Swede. I

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Speaker 2: think of Swedish Swedish visas for everyone on every Jewish

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Speaker 2: person under fifteen, and just like lying, it's like they're

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Speaker 2: all citizens, like every one of them.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, there's many Swedish people here.

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Speaker 2: Wow, a lot of Swedes in Budapest right now. And

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Speaker 2: he saved I mean he again, We've talked about this.

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Speaker 2: He saves like one hundred thousand people, and one of

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Speaker 2: them is Robert Maxwell's younger sister. So this is obviously

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Speaker 2: about as devastating a road trip as you can go on,

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Speaker 2: traveling through like the battle scars of Eastern Europe to

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Speaker 2: find out basically no one lived in your family. And

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Speaker 2: this is kind of the last time that he directly

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Speaker 2: acknowledges his Jewish roots for decades. When he returns to

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Speaker 2: occupied Berlin to work as an interrogator, he fully inhabits

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Speaker 2: Robert Maxwell, British officer. He's promoted to a captain at

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Speaker 2: this point, and it's not like hidden, like he doesn't

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Speaker 2: try to cover up his origins, but he doesn't tell

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Speaker 2: people he starts meeting now about them, and the vast

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Speaker 2: majority of people who know and work with him have

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Speaker 2: no idea that he's Jewish, that he grew up, you know,

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Speaker 2: in eastern Czechoslovakia, and he you know, it's one of

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Speaker 2: those things I don't think he was ever religious. So

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Speaker 2: I think Judaism was never like his his faith in

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Speaker 2: a meaningful way, because I think he's just kind of

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Speaker 2: a natural atheist. And I think after this, acknowledging that

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Speaker 2: that's his heritage is just too painful because his family

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Speaker 2: has been annihilated, right, and so he just really doesn't

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Speaker 2: for decades. He does take care of his sisters. He

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Speaker 2: sends them both to the United States, he sends his

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Speaker 2: younger he pays for his younger sister to go to college.

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Speaker 2: So he continues to take care of his family. He

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Speaker 2: just I think it's too painful for him to kind

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Speaker 2: of acknowledge his background in any way.

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Speaker 3: What kind of like documentation would one even have at

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Speaker 3: this point, you know, like how like what you know,

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Speaker 3: what is he a citizen of? And is there any

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Speaker 3: such thing as like given what's happened in.

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Speaker 2: Europe, Yes, so, but he is lucky for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people there aren't, right because of how many states

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Speaker 2: are destroyed and how chaotic the movement is. But he

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Speaker 2: enters the UK as part of the Dunkirk Landing, so

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Speaker 2: he has number one papers from France because he's enlisted

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Speaker 2: in the French Foreign Legion. And then he gets papers

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Speaker 2: because he enlists in the British military and so he

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Speaker 2: is an official citizen and he is able to get

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Speaker 2: papers for his family as a result, because he's now

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Speaker 2: a captain. He's fairly influential. He's good at meeting and

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Speaker 2: knowing people. He's a war hero, and he's able to

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Speaker 2: take care of his family because number one, his legal

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Speaker 2: status is super clear and he's a hero, right, and

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Speaker 2: he does take care of his family, though what little

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Speaker 2: is left of it. Now he is an interrogator now

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Speaker 2: in Berlin, and it is unlikely that his job as

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Speaker 2: an interrogator always stuck to the letter of international law,

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Speaker 2: by which I mean he probably tortured people. Right, this

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Speaker 2: is the start of the Cold War. He is in

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Speaker 2: Berlin interrogator people, and initially a lot of former Nazis.

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Speaker 2: But like, one has to assume there's some ugliness to

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Speaker 2: this job. Now, this is also a time nineteen forty

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Speaker 2: six when a foreign occupier could behave more or less

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Speaker 2: any way they wanted to among the captive German population,

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Speaker 2: and Maxwell certainly did for idea of like how because

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Speaker 2: everyone's starving in Germany, and also most of them had

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Speaker 2: been Nazis, so like for example, my grandpa is in

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Speaker 2: this at the exact same period of time and basically

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Speaker 2: the same area I have in my house, like two

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Speaker 2: grandfather clocks that he bought for like fifty cents each.

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Speaker 2: He bought like a shitload of these, like one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty year old grandfather clocks from starving Germans and

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Speaker 2: just shipped him back to the US because he was

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Speaker 2: as a poor Oklahoma boy. He's like, yeah, I'll take

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Speaker 2: all these formerly rich Europeans grandfather clocks for pennies, fuck them,

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Speaker 2: like hard to blame anybody for that. I consider them

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Speaker 2: more booty and Maxwell's Maxwell does the same thing, but

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Speaker 2: with so much more panache because so because he's he's

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Speaker 2: got this job where he's like interrogating old Nazis, he

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Speaker 2: meets Hitler's former dentist, which is first very weird connection. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so Hitler's old dentist tells Robert Maxwell, you know,

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Speaker 2: I know the guy who bred Hitler's beloved German shepherd Blondie.

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Speaker 2: That's the dog that he like like fed Cyanide to

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Speaker 2: when the bunker, like this is his pet. And there's

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Speaker 2: this dude who's like the dog, the Kinnel operator who

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Speaker 2: bred the dogs that like were Hitler's dogs, and so

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Speaker 2: Robert Maxwell's like I got to meet this motherfucker. So

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Speaker 2: he visits this guy.

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Speaker 4: Hitler must have just like the number of people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I was Hitler's optometrist. Yeah, yeah, you know I

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Speaker 3: used to scrub Hitler's pool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of personal services the guy needed done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, a lot of people working with Hitler

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Speaker 2: one way or the other.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I set up his aquarium. It was like really complicated.

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Speaker 3: Then he needed me to come out every two weeks

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Speaker 3: to clean Hitler's aquarium.

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Speaker 2: My aunt when she was like hitchhiking through Germany and

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Speaker 2: like the fifties, got picked up by a guy she

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Speaker 2: later found out was Hitler's photographer. Like, we have a

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Speaker 2: bunch of photos he gave her, like he just picked

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Speaker 2: her up on the.

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Speaker 3: Road photos of Hitler.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we have like a lot of weird Hitler photos

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Speaker 2: in my family that she was just like I didn't

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Speaker 2: know what to do with him.

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Speaker 4: You gotta go on antiques road show and.

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Speaker 2: With my Hitler picks, my god, yeah.

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Speaker 3: They never have the good shit on there. You got

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Speaker 3: to go on with the Hitler picks at the Grandfather clocks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I prefer the Grandfather clocks to the Hitler picks. So,

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Speaker 2: but Maxwell's story is so much cooler. So he finds

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Speaker 2: Hitler's dog breeder and this guy is like on the

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Speaker 2: edge of destitution. Obviously the war was not good for

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Speaker 2: Hitler's dog guy. And he has one breeding male left, right,

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Speaker 2: this like one German, and he's his hope is that

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Speaker 2: like I can rebuild my business with this male, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, and maybe get my feet back on.

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Speaker 3: And it's like just like a guy that man, you know,

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Speaker 3: that downfall the Third riis and like the Holocaust and

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Speaker 3: all that really bad for my dog breeding business, Yes,

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Speaker 3: horrible for guys who sell German shepherds. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: I sold German Hitler. I thought it was a good

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Speaker 3: bed at the time.

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Speaker 2: I thought it would keep going.

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Speaker 3: Seemed like he was on the way up. You know.

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Speaker 2: It was the MySpace of its day. How could it

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Speaker 2: have failed?

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Speaker 5: Go?

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Speaker 3: Why don't anybody think of how this affects dog breeding businesses?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fucking Eisenhower kept awake at night. We never thought

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Speaker 2: of the dog breeders. So Maxwell, his biographers always say

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Speaker 2: that he buys the dog off this guy and reading

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Speaker 2: between the lines. I don't think he gave the breeder

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Speaker 2: a choice, right. I think he was like, I'm a

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Speaker 2: British officer, I have a weapon, I'm taking the dog.

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Speaker 2: And I believe this because within days of him taking

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Speaker 2: this guy's last dog, Hitler's dog breeder commits suicide.

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Speaker 1: And this story is so bizarre.

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Speaker 2: Maxwell he tells his like comrades, his like fellow soldiers this,

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Speaker 2: and he's like, ha in this fucking funny and they're

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Speaker 2: like horrified that he kind of killed Hitler's dog breeder.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, also, this man, his entire family was

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Speaker 3: murdered in the Holocaust. It's like and.

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Speaker 2: There the morality of this is, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Hitler's dog breeder sounds like a side mission from Wolfenstein.

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Speaker 3: You know of someone you go murder, Right, you.

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Speaker 2: Gotta kill Hitler's dog breeder. He's got four arms and

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Speaker 2: like a Cerberus. Yeah, you need the mini gun for

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Speaker 2: that level.

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Speaker 4: So is it Hitler's dog? Is that what you're saying?

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Speaker 2: No, No, no, this would have been I think it was

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Speaker 2: like the sire of Hitler's dog, maybe at least related

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Speaker 2: to the sire Hitler's dog.

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Speaker 3: No, No, this wasn't Hitler's dog. No no, no, no no,

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Speaker 3: this was the sire of Hitler's Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I stole Hitler's dog's dad.

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Speaker 3: Every Nazi owned dogs who were sired by this dog.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. It's so funny that he's like, this is

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Speaker 2: a bragging point for him that I destroyed this man

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Speaker 2: and his like his colleagues are like, that's kind of

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Speaker 2: fun up.

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Speaker 3: And I also just have to say, if your biographer

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Speaker 3: is like starting a paragraph with and then he met

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Speaker 3: a dog breeder and arranged to purchase a dog, it's

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Speaker 3: not a good dog purchase story, Like.

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Speaker 2: There's not any of those really, Like a breeder dog purchases.

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Speaker 3: Don't make it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, you know, like Nixon's biography doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Spend a lot of time on checkers, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, yeah, he couldn't kill Hitler, but he got

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Speaker 2: the guy who made Hitler's dog. I guess wildlife.

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Speaker 3: He owned the dog, what do you do with the dog?

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Speaker 2: By all accounts, he cared about. He liked the dog, obviously,

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Speaker 2: not the dog's fault.

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Speaker 3: He takes revenge on literally everybody who had anything to

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Speaker 3: do with Nazi, just people who were just hanging around

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Speaker 3: in Germany for a day.

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Speaker 4: He slaughters them, but he's like the dog.

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Speaker 3: I like the dogs, the dog Bitler's dog's dad. That's

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Speaker 3: a Nazi I'm okay with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So Maxwell kind of around this period has

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Speaker 2: a fairly He works as a spy. He's kind of

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Speaker 2: like a contractor for six probably it's one of those

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Speaker 2: things where we don't know exactly who he's working for

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent because it's spy stuff and because of

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Speaker 2: some other things he does. Because he's always a little

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Speaker 2: involved in this world of espionage. This will be mythologized,

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Speaker 2: but what we can confirm is really cool, which is

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Speaker 2: that he befriends a Soviet colonel because he speaks Russian

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Speaker 2: really well, and you have to imagine they're very drunk.

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Speaker 2: He convinces the Soviet colonel to break into Georgie Zukov's

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Speaker 2: office so they can photograph his papers. Like so much

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Speaker 2: vodka has to have been part of this story to

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Speaker 2: get this colonel to like, yeah, fuck Zukov, insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's nuts. He also carries out clandestine surveillance of his

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Speaker 2: old homeland, Czechoslovakia, which is where he gets noted by

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Speaker 2: the Czech like foreign service is looking like a hotter

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Speaker 2: Clark Gable. He's also described by many who knew him

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Speaker 2: as being a bit of a dick. An article in

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Speaker 2: The Guardian at this time describes him as tall, brash

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Speaker 2: and not at all content with his already considerable success.

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Speaker 2: An acquaintance at the time recalled him confessing his greatest

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Speaker 2: desire to be a millionaire. So you know what else

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Speaker 2: is there after killing every night? Literally getting down to

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Speaker 2: the fact that you're down to Hitler's dog breeder, so

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Speaker 2: you got no more Nazis to kill?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it just war affects everybody so differently.

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Speaker 3: You know, I would think that if I escaped the

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Speaker 3: miserable poverty of Central Eastern Europe and you know, and

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Speaker 3: the worst war in the history of humanity, yeah, killed

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Speaker 3: a bunch of people, managed to not die in either

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Speaker 3: the Holocaust or the fighting, Yeah, and then achieved a

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Speaker 3: position of social prominence, I'd say, you know what, maybe

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Speaker 3: I'll take a summer off, you know, maybe I'll just

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Speaker 3: like be content to be.

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Speaker 2: Alive, take a break, go to the sea. But ambition, man, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like that he is like this ambition is and maybe

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Speaker 2: you know, he would never have admitted this, maybe there

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Speaker 2: is a degree that it's like, given what he's experienced,

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Speaker 2: he has to just keep moving right, like you can't.

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Speaker 2: You kind of can't just sit with what what's got

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Speaker 2: happened to you and what you've done. And that's certainly

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Speaker 2: like what one's left to interpret from where his life

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Speaker 2: goes next. So he talks a lot at the time

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Speaker 2: about how he's going to become a millionaire, and he

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Speaker 2: talks about specifically, I'm going to find a great unexploited

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Speaker 2: resource and find a way to put myself in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the distribution chain. Right. So again he has

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Speaker 2: this kind of eye for business, and he doesn't know

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Speaker 2: what he doesn't want to do anything in particular other

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Speaker 2: than find the next great resource and make himself key

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Speaker 2: to it.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: He's probably thinking this way because both oil and uranium

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Speaker 2: have gotten way more valuable in very very recently as

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Speaker 2: a result of some things. But the resource that Maxwell

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Speaker 2: is gonna lasso and used to make his fortune is

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Speaker 2: more dangerous and more valuable than either of those. Raw knowledge.

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Speaker 2: So science is a discipline is given how crucial it

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Speaker 2: is to World War two by the time that war starts,

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Speaker 2: Like the concept of science as like a professional field

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Speaker 2: that like people go into is still pretty new, and

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Speaker 2: in fact, even in like forty five forty six, some

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Speaker 2: of the senior scientific minds in the world had grown

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Speaker 2: up and started their careers at a time when science

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Speaker 2: was something gentleman hobbyists did.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like the product of a national educational and

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Speaker 2: an industrial apparatus, right, this was something like men who

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Speaker 2: are like the earl of such and such, and my

290
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Speaker 2: hobby is figuring out how heredity works or whatever. Like

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Speaker 2: that's kind of how things had worked not all that

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Speaker 2: long ago. And obviously things have professionalized a lot prior

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Speaker 2: to World War Two, but the field is still really

294
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Speaker 2: new and people are still figuring out stuff like how

295
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Speaker 2: are we going to disseminate and spread new discoveries around

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Speaker 2: the world. What is that infrastructure going to look like?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: And the Manhattan Project is a major part of that. Right,

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Speaker 2: there's suddenly this understanding that like it's kind of dangerous

300
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Speaker 2: for countries to not be completely up to date on

301
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Speaker 2: what's happening scientifically, right, Particularly the British government is kind

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Speaker 2: of caught off guard a little bit by the success

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Speaker 2: the US has with the Manhattan Project and the scale

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Speaker 2: of the achievement, and even though like they're on our

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Speaker 2: side during this, they're like, well, fuck we are. We

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Speaker 2: do not have a scientific industry that's capable of competing

307
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Speaker 2: with the Americans in the way that we need to.

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Speaker 3: They're like, ah, we've been chemically castrating mathematicians. We got

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Speaker 3: shit over here.

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Speaker 2: Oh fuck, we really should probably stop doing that. Huh yeah,

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Speaker 2: stop poisoning our smart guys. As The Guardian writes, quote

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Speaker 2: top British scientists, from Alexander Fleming, who discovered penicillin, to

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Speaker 2: the physicist Charles Galton Darwin, grandson of Charles Darwin. We're

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Speaker 2: concerned that while British science was world class, its publishing

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Speaker 2: arm was dismal. Science publishers were mainly known for being

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Speaker 2: inefficient and constant broke journals, which often appeared on cheap,

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Speaker 2: thin paper, were produced almost as an afterthought by scientific societies.

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Speaker 2: The British Chemical Society had a month's long backlog of

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Speaker 2: articles for publication and relied on cash handouts from the

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Speaker 2: Royal Society to fund its printing operations. So there is

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Speaker 2: no money in scientific publishing. It's like they barely even

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Speaker 2: consider It's like, oh yeah, you figured out how nuclear

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Speaker 2: energy works. We should probably write about that at some

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Speaker 2: point in a place other people can read it, but

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Speaker 2: not a priority. You know, we'll just let that happen whenever.

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Speaker 3: Uh huh, you're writing each other handwritten letters and shit, gone,

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Speaker 3: I discovered something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah nukes, Yeah yeah yeah. So by late summer of

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty six, Robert Maxwell has talked himself and to

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Speaker 2: maybe the sweetest gig anyone gets during the Allied occupation

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Speaker 2: of Germany, which is he starts running the press section

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Speaker 2: of the Public Relations and Information Services Control Organizations. So obviously,

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Speaker 2: right after we occupy Germany, we're not letting the Germans

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Speaker 2: have newspapers of their own again that they're running, right,

335
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Speaker 2: because that didn't go well last time. Yeah yeah, German

336
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Speaker 2: media got a little out of pocket. So he is

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Speaker 2: basically put in charge of all German print media, right,

338
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Speaker 2: so as these as newspapers start up again, he is

339
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Speaker 2: like both the censor, so he's like approving everything that

340
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Speaker 2: goes out, but he's also figuring out how to make

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Speaker 2: these profitable. And he just turns out to be really

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Speaker 2: good at it, Like he's shockingly good at knowing how

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Speaker 2: to make a newspaper work financially. He probably got that

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Speaker 2: because he has no experience in this. He probably got

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Speaker 2: the job because he was trusted by the intelligence services.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's in with MI I six, and they're like,

347
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Speaker 2: probably good to have a guy who is with us

348
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Speaker 2: running the papers in post war Germany. But he launches

349
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Speaker 2: his first big paper as a social democratic paper that

350
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Speaker 2: like becomes wildly successful and makes a huge amount of money.

351
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Speaker 2: And it's like it's really hard in Germany, which is

352
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Speaker 2: devastated to get enough like ink and paper, and somehow

353
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Speaker 2: he manages to and no one really knows how. The

354
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,639
Speaker 2: assumption is a mix of like bribery and his connections

355
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Speaker 2: with like organized crime, and just he he's also like

356
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 2: people will say, like he was scary. He'd killed dozens

357
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Speaker 2: of men and he was huge. So if he needed

358
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Speaker 2: something and he couldn't get it through other reasons, he

359
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 2: would just threaten to beat the shit out a few wow,

360
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Speaker 2: And yeah, I probably wouldn't have wanted to fight. Nineteen

361
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Speaker 2: forty six Robert Maxwell.

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Speaker 4: His articles are all like, it's great to murder Germans.

363
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Speaker 2: Actually pretty cool.

364
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Speaker 3: Blowing a mayor's brains out is a tank fired at

365
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,359
Speaker 3: you is a heroic deed.

366
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Speaker 2: I wrote a poem about it. This paper, the first

367
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Speaker 2: paper that he's a social democratic paper that he starts,

368
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Speaker 2: is owned by a company, a publisher called Springer verloc.

369
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Speaker 2: You've heard of Springer if you've ever read an academic

370
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Speaker 2: publication or like, I think they do textbooks too, you

371
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:54,199
Speaker 2: have seen Springer on a publication. Yeah, yeah, and this

372
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,440
Speaker 2: is that company, right, and he gets to know the

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Speaker 2: owner of the company, an elderly man named Ferdinand Springer

374
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 2: quite well. Now, pre war, Springer had been the world's

375
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Speaker 2: largest publisher of scientific literature because Germany had been the

376
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Speaker 2: scientific center of the planet in many ways prior to

377
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Speaker 2: Hitler's rise to power. But once the war starts, science

378
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,919
Speaker 2: kept going because obviously the Nazis still funded science, but

379
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 2: Germany was a pariah state and so they weren't publishing

380
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 2: anything for the rest of the world, and so papers

381
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 2: would continue to be written like sort of collecting the

382
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,920
Speaker 2: whole history of like all of these scientific achievements being

383
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Speaker 2: made during the Nazi period, and they were just building

384
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Speaker 2: up in a warehouse that Springer had that he was

385
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,679
Speaker 2: trying to keep, you know, far enough away that it

386
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Speaker 2: didn't get blown up by Allied bombs. So at the

387
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Speaker 2: end of the war, Ferdinand Springer is broke, but he

388
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,160
Speaker 2: has sixty three thousand books filled with like the science

389
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 2: of rocketry, which the Nazis had developed to a massive extent,

390
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 2: and like advanced metallurgy and medical like all of this

391
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,719
Speaker 2: really important, crucial science that's going to be a big

392
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,440
Speaker 2: part of the space race. It's just sitting in springer warehouse, unpublished, right.

393
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: And Maxwell becomes this guy's friend, and so while they're talking,

394
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,119
Speaker 2: Ferdinand explains to him how scientific publishing works. And he's like,

395
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 2: you know, so governments fund scientific research, as do universities,

396
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,439
Speaker 2: and there's grants, and there's grants come from you know,

397
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 2: sometimes from governments, from different funds, from wealthy philanthropists, and

398
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 2: they pay for the science. And then the scientists produce

399
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 2: these papers about their findings and then publishers basically get

400
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,680
Speaker 2: them for free. And Maxwell's like, wait a second, free,

401
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,680
Speaker 2: the most like important valuable resource in the world. People

402
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 2: aren't even really charging for it. I got a motherfucking idea.

403
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 2: And yeah, part of his idea is that Springer can't

404
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 2: do anything with all these papers because German nationals are

405
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 2: not allowed to ship things overseas right now, Like, there's

406
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,360
Speaker 2: a limited quantity that you can mail outside of Germany

407
00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,479
Speaker 2: as a German for obvious reasons. But Robert Mack can

408
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 2: mail whatever the fuck he wants, right Well, so he's

409
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 2: found his great resource and he's about to start exploiting it.

410
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 2: He starts a company with the goal of shipping Springer

411
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 2: scientific publications over to the UK and finding journals to

412
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 2: publish them. Right, he gets Springer, who again is broke,

413
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: hands him the worldwide distribution rights to all of German science,

414
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 2: right as long as he can find a way to

415
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,639
Speaker 2: move it. Now, he maxwell's comfortable at this point, but

416
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 2: he's not rich, and sixty three thousand books worth of

417
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 2: stuff is you have to be rich to ship that somewhere.

418
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 2: We don't actually know how he pays for this, like

419
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: because it's expensive. He has no real customers. Initially for

420
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: years he'll have kind of claimed that, like, oh, my

421
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 2: wife's family has some money, so I use my savings

422
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: and theirs and that funded this. But his family is like, no,

423
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 2: he didn't really give him. We didn't like him, Like,

424
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 2: we didn't give him anything. Because his wife comes from

425
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 2: like kind of a bougie family and they do know

426
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 2: that Maxwell's like a poor Jewish kid from nowhere. They

427
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 2: don't care that he's like a war hero now so

428
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 2: we find out years later. We don't learn this until

429
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 2: after Maxwell dies in the year two thousand. A former

430
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 2: m I six officer claims that British intelligence, literally the

431
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 2: James Bond Agency, funds Maxwell's startup because he had been

432
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 2: working undercover for them and they considered it a potentially

433
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 2: valuable venture. M I six is intelligently like, probably good

434
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: to have a hand in all of scientific publishing. That like,

435
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 2: that might that might work out for us. Actually, here's

436
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 2: some money. And the the m I six officer who

437
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 2: reveals this says it's the only time m I six

438
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: ever like completely funded a startup. Maybe that's true, maybe

439
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 2: that's not. I don't credit a literal m I six

440
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,360
Speaker 2: officer with necessarily being honest about everything.

441
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, all those uh startups that make Jim's Bonzil.

442
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: Gadgets right right right, Yeah, there's gotta be a couple

443
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: of those, right, Q's gotta have some gotta have some

444
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 2: companies he's working with. So so, as noted earlier, Maxwell

445
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: start shipping the stuff to the UK, and while he's

446
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 2: doing this. His plan right now, His business is just

447
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: I want to get this over to the UK and

448
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 2: I'll figure out a way to make it work financially,

449
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 2: because there's obviously a hunger for this material. But the UK,

450
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: this just adds to the problem the country has, which

451
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 2: is the scientific publishing in the UK can't handle the

452
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: UK's backlog of unpublished science sixty three thousand books worth

453
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: of added stuff. It's just over massively overloaded the system

454
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 2: right per the Guardian quote, the British government solution was

455
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 2: to pair the venerable British publishing house Butterworths with the

456
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: renowned German publisher Springer. To draw on the latter's expertise.

457
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: Butterworth's would learn to turn a profit on journals, and

458
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 2: British Science would get its work out at a faster pace.

459
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: The Butterworth's directors, being ex British Intelligence themselves, hired the

460
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: young Maxwell to help manage the company, and another X spook,

461
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: Paul Rosbaud, a metallurgist who spent the war passing Nazi

462
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: nuclear secrets to the British through French and Dutch resistance,

463
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: as scientific editor. When Butterworth's decided to abandon the fledgling project.

464
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 2: In nineteen fifty one, Maxwell offered thirteen thousand pounds about

465
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 2: four hundred and twenty grand today for both Butterworth's and

466
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: Springer's shares, giving him control of the company. Rose Boud

467
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: stayed on a scientific director and named the new venture

468
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 2: Pergaman Press, after a coin from the ancient Greek city

469
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: of Pergamen featuring athena goddess of wisdom, which they adapted

470
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: for the company logo, a simple line drawing appropriately representing

471
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: both knowledge and money. So what starts as a British

472
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 2: program to like get scientific publishing up winds up entirely

473
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: in Maxwell and rose Boud's hands, because the company that

474
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 2: the British government contract with is like, ah, there's probably

475
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 2: not a lot of money in this. Yeah, we'll take

476
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: thirteen thousand pounds for now being in control of all

477
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 2: of scientific publishing for Germany and the United Kingdom. That's

478
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 2: where Maxwell's made himself. He's not thirty, Like.

479
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 4: He's not thirty years old yet.

480
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 2: No, No, he would have been. So he's twenty three

481
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,479
Speaker 2: in the war ends, who'd have been like twenty eight

482
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: or twenty nine? Right now, I think, Wow, he's doing well.

483
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 3: I'm forty two and I haven't like murdered anybody.

484
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: Haven't murdered dozens of ss men.

485
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: I haven't killed any mayors. I haven't taken over the

486
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: scientific publishing of two entire nations yet, right, yeah, like

487
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 3: the last generation was just stronger and better.

488
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Yeah, the energy this guy had.

489
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 4: Because of the cell phone.

490
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 3: You know, that's why I haven't haven't murdered any Germans yet.

491
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: It's the cell phone I had had. A Robert Maxwell

492
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: secretly invented adderall. He was just keeping it from everybody

493
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 2: for a while, jumping it into his leg. Yeah yeah, yeah,

494
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: it's his only food. So while this business was starting

495
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: off with a bang, Maxwell is still a serial entrepreneur,

496
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: and most of his attempts at business don't work quite

497
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: as well as Pergaman does. A great example of this

498
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: would be a business deal he sets up in the

499
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: early fifties. So he gets in bed with his German

500
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: chemist and this chemist has set up a deal to

501
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: exchange chemicals shipped from Germany for glass China and goods

502
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: manufactured elsewhere. Right, because Germany doesn't have a lot of

503
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 2: stuff at the end of the war except for some

504
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: raw materials. A decision is made midway through the process

505
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: that we should probably send all of the stuff through

506
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 2: Argentina because Argentina can pay with pork bellies. Now, Like,

507
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: I'm not an economic expert, I don't know why this

508
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 2: made sense to them, but they decide like, oh, yeah,

509
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: pork bellies, that's better than cash. That'll really work out.

510
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, these settlers of Katan logic.

511
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: Yes, And I know someone might be saying, well, pork

512
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 2: belly futures is probably what they were talking about. No,

513
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: no literal pork bellies. And this becomes obvious because when

514
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: they try to exchange these pork bellies to the British

515
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: government for cash, the British Government's like, well, these have

516
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 2: gone rancid. These are all rancid pork bellies. We don't

517
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: really want these, So maxwell they keep going. He keeps

518
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: trying to sell these rancid pork bellies to different countries,

519
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: and he finally finds a country that's like starving to death, Austria,

520
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: and Austria's like, yeah, we will literally take anything it's rancid. Fine,

521
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 2: we'll make it into sausage. We're doing so badly right now,

522
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: toxic pork is the best Austria can do, thanks Hitler. Yeah. Again,

523
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: there's like a if you've been to Berlin, you've had

524
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: like curry worst, right, which is like a Berlin dish,

525
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: and it's like curry on a sausage or a hot dog.

526
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: It got started because in this period of time they're

527
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 2: like sausages were like more than a fifty percent sawdust

528
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 2: and they had curry powder because the British were there.

529
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 2: So it was like people won't notice the sawdust as

530
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 2: much if we put curry on it.

531
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 3: Every time we eat a curry worst. Do you think

532
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 3: of Maxwell and his quest to take over all of.

533
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: Publishing, all of publishing in the rancid pork business?

534
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

535
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: My favorite side fact about this is that they get

536
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: Austria to buy this rancid pork by pretending the meat

537
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 2: had come from a fake country called Oceania, and nobody

538
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 2: in Austria, like in the trade part of Austar or whatever,

539
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: recognizes that he just made up a country. This is

540
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: not real. Yeah, that sounds real to me.

541
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: Wow.

542
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: Again, we just got out of the Nazi period, not

543
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: super knowledgeable about the rest of the world.

544
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: Here, you guys don't even want to know what's what

545
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 3: happened in South America. Man, there's Oceania's taken over. They

546
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 3: make the best pork bellies.

547
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 4: Really want some.

548
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: The freshest pork bellies.

549
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

550
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 2: Wow, So in nineteen fifty five, back doing their pergaman business,

551
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: we're out of the pork belly thing. Maxwell and his

552
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 2: partner rose about it. I also just have to say

553
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: the fact that like this scientific publishing starts with like

554
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: the guy who murdered a significant portion of the SS

555
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: and the guy who smuggled nuclear secrets to the French resistance.

556
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: You'd think this would have ended cooler than it does.

557
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, these guys sound awesome.

558
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: They are at this point, and they're arbitraging pork bellies

559
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 3: instead of money. By the way, maybe the first that

560
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: they're not as smart as we think they are that

561
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 3: they were like, hey, we could you don't be better

562
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: than being paid in money, being paid in pork belliesceiving

563
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 3: the pork bellies, and then having to travel around Europe

564
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: set reselling your rancid pork bellies for Austrian money. The

565
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 3: Austrian money can't be great.

566
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that can't have been like a great profit margin. Right. Yeah,

567
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 2: So in nineteen fifty five, Maxwell and his partner Rose

568
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: Baud show up at the Geneva Conference on Peaceful Uses

569
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: of Nuclear Power. And this is kind of we've talked

570
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: about this before, one of like the inciting events to

571
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: what becomes the Plowshare program, where the US is like,

572
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: we should be using nukes to dig big holes and

573
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: hydraulically frack, you know. So they show up at this

574
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: big conference because there's all these scientists who are presenting

575
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: papers on like cutting edge nuclear research. So they run

576
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: an office nearby, and Maxwell spends the whole trip. He's

577
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: just like crashing seminars and luncheons and dinners and finding

578
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: every scientist he can who's got a paper out and

579
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: is like, hey, man, sign an exclusive contract with me.

580
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: I will give you money in exchange for the rights

581
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: to everything you publish. Right, And this isn't a lot

582
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: of money for him. I think he's giving these people

583
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: like hundreds to thousands of dollars. But these are like

584
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: scientists aren't like Richmond traditionally, especially in this period, and

585
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: paper publishing had never really been worth money before, so

586
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: they're like this is a great deal, right, you know, suddenly,

587
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: finally someone values my work. So Maxwell is just like

588
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: he's like he's basically just going door to door finding

589
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: every scientist and being like, what'll it take to sign

590
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: you right now? Right, Like, He's like, he's like a

591
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: Hollywood agent. But for nuclear physicists.

592
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: Going around the open MIC's handing that, handing out five

593
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 3: dollars bills.

594
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: Right, exactly, yes, And no one had ever done this

595
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: in the field of science, right, this is still a

596
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: gentleman's endeavor. And journals tended to be focused on what

597
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: they were interested in publishing, right, So they didn't like

598
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: seek people out. You know, if you were a nuclear

599
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: physicist and you had a paper, you'd go to the

600
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: journal that did that, and you would send them the

601
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: paper and maybe they'd get to it eventually. So Maxwell's

602
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: coming up with a fucking that shocking to people, right.

603
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: Don Frank, a competing publisher, considered this dishonest, but it worked.

604
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: What made pergam And so profitable was the fact that,

605
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: and this is something that he realizes as a result

606
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: of his conversations with Ferdinand, every university and every government

607
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: scientific organization in the entire Western world needs access to

608
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: all of the relevant research in their field as it's

609
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,479
Speaker 2: being published. This means subscriptions to every relevant journal are

610
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: a necessity.

611
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 3: Right.

612
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: If you're a college and you have a bunch of

613
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: different scientific programs, you're going to be subscribed to basically

614
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: every journal there is, right. And the first thing Maxwell

615
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: realizes is like, well, they'll pay whatever I charge. Right,

616
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: If I have exclusive rights, no one else can publish

617
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: these things. I can charge as much as I want.

618
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: And obviously, once he makes money, competition enters. Other companies

619
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: start figuring this out. But he makes another prediction, which

620
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: is that this will work the opposite of the way

621
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: most things work. The more publishers there are putting out

622
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: more journals, the more money we will make, right, because

623
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: they can't not subscribe to everything, because all of the

624
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: research is unique, and in order to stay up to date,

625
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: they have to buy everything. And at this point in time,

626
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: all of these universities, all these government they're just being

627
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: funded by these massive amounts of like Cold War era

628
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: defense cash. So the money is unlimited, right, And that's

629
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: really what he realizes, Like, I can charge whatever I want,

630
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: I can put out as many journals as I want,

631
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: and there will be an endless amount of cash for me.

632
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: And this is not like a huge part of the

633
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: budget of any one university anyway. Now, So you could

634
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: charge you could charge an arm and a leg. Yeah,

635
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 3: but it's just gonna be some like the library has

636
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: to pay for a little bit of It doesn't cost

637
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 3: them as much as their mortgage.

638
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: It's one hundred dollars instead of ten dollars, right, yes,

639
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: And we're getting all this defense money anyway, because the

640
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: US government needs physicists right right now. It was his

641
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: business partner Rosebaud who had the idea that would truly

642
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: make Pergaman into a force to be reckoned with, and

643
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: Bob Maxwell rich beyond his wildest dreams. Per the Guardian quote.

644
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: As science expanded, he realized that it would need new

645
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: journals to cover new areas of study. The scientific societies

646
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: that had traditionally created journals were unwieldy institutions that tended

647
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: to move slowly, hampered by internal debates between members about

648
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: the boundaries of their field. Rosebod had none of those constraints.

649
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: All he needed to do was convince a prominent academic

650
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: that their particular field required a new journal to showcase

651
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: it properly and install that person at the helm of it.

652
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: Pergaman would then begin selling subscriptions to university libraries, which

653
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: suddenly had a lot of government money to spend. So

654
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: you're literally walking up to guys and saying, hey, what

655
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: you do seems new? You should have a journal, And

656
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: suddenly every college in the western world subscribes. Immediate profits

657
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: right there are so a really good magazine is working

658
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: on like a ten to fifteen percent profit margin, right,

659
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: and that's a magazine that's doing very well. His profit

660
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: margins on these journals are over fifty percent. Wow, Like,

661
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: it's insane how much money they make off of this.

662
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: Speaking of insane money, help us get some of that,

663
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: you know, so we can subscribe to scientific journals. No,

664
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: we use sy hub. Everyone use sy hub. Fuck these people,

665
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: fuck scientific publishing as an industry. Steal it not legal advice,

666
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: and we're back. Sihub is a website that collects most

667
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:34,919
Speaker 2: of the journals you might want. If you like, find

668
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: a journal that's paywalled, you go to syhub. Google it.

669
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of different mirrors. Put the doi number

670
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: or just the URL link to the study you want,

671
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: and syhub will generally return it for free. It's great anyway,

672
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I'm not. That's not illegal for me

673
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 2: to say.

674
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 3: I mean, I think pretty much every grad student in

675
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 3: the world is using.

676
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: It right, right, right, and they should be and all

677
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,240
Speaker 2: of this should be free.

678
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, because it's oh, you mean, a scientific knowledge,

679
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 3: the birthright of mankind that our tax is paid for,

680
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: the only, in fact, the only uh permanent and important

681
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 3: thing humanity does on the entire planet to discover how

682
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: the universe around us works. Yeah, that should probably be

683
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: a free public resource.

684
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: It should probably be everyone's property. Yeah, the collective genius

685
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: of mankind. I don't know anyway. So Roseboud he has

686
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: this idea which is very mercenary, but he also has

687
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: like a conscience. He is a scientist, and he starts

688
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: to feel ashamed as Maxwell runs with it and is like, ah, man,

689
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: I really don't I don't feel good being in business

690
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 2: with you and doing this. I maybe contributed terribly to

691
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: a great evil. And he leaves, and so Maxwell's in

692
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: sole charge of Pergama now, and once he grasps Rosebaud's idea,

693
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 2: he runs with it like fucking Ussane Bolt. He's launching

694
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,439
Speaker 2: new journals off the strength of like somebody he's having

695
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: like drinks and some guy mentions a new idea and

696
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 2: he's like, bam, journal motherfucker if a researcher. Yeah, like that,

697
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: Like that's literally how it's happening. By the late fifties,

698
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 2: he brought us sort of sleazy. He's like the first

699
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: eighties guy, Like he's amazing, and he brings this energy

700
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: to scientific publishing. And the fact that he is this

701
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: way is so out of time that it's shocking to

702
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 2: his new peers. So who show up at these scientific

703
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: conferences in like these fine tailored Italian suits. He's got

704
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: his hair slicked back like a gangster. He described the

705
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: journals that he owned as you lambs and himself as

706
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 2: King David, like cutting them up for parts. Basically that's

707
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 2: such a Again, this is why Rosebaud quits in fifty

708
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 2: six is he's like, I don't know, maybe this feels gross.

709
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 3: I also have to say, like there's been a lot

710
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: of talk in the last twenty years about you know,

711
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: for profit journals and you know, all the problems in

712
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 3: scientific publisher I always thought that that profit motive was

713
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 3: relatively recent. I didn't realize it was rapacious even at

714
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 3: the dawn of this shit.

715
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: Yes, and it Maxwell invins it. Now obviously would something

716
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 2: similar mayby, but like it's him, He's the one who

717
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 2: starts this.

718
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 3: And presumably somebody could have started a version of academic

719
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: publishing that didn't work this way. That was like, you know,

720
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 3: a lot of people say, like, what if Jimmy Wales

721
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 3: had not started Wikipedia, right, we would have maybe had

722
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: a different business model. There could have been a business

723
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 3: model that went a better way.

724
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you just don't know. And you know,

725
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: I think we're probably doing better with Wikipedia than most

726
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 2: things on the Internet these days.

727
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a good example. If that hadn't existed,

728
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: something bad it could have taken its place. There could

729
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 3: have been a better version of scientific publishing.

730
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, cost one hundred dollars a month or some

731
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 2: shit or whatever. Yeah, and it tells you that Elon Musk,

732
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: you're gonna get a hyperloop in your city soon or whatever. Yeah.

733
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: So the next Geneva conference, now working alone, Robert Maxwell

734
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 2: rinse a mansion on the lake and he starts whining

735
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: and dining the best minds of the scientific world. Again.

736
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 2: He's taking these guys who have spent their whole and

737
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: ladies who have spent their whole careers with their nose

738
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: in a book generally don't have much money begging for grants,

739
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: and he is treating them like movie stars or pop musicians.

740
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: Like at one point he gets a bunch of these

741
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: guys together to start a journal, and he puts them

742
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: on a chartered boat tour of the Greek aisles to

743
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: figure out how to make the journal. Like it is

744
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: like classic Hollywood erashit right where you're like, go go

745
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: hang out in Italy for three months and write this

746
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: movie together or something like that. Like that's what he's

747
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 2: doing with these scientists, and like yeah, they they're like

748
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: this is much better than being a poor scientist.

749
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 3: This would work on me. Yes, yes, of course if

750
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 3: I was a scientist, I'd be like this guy is

751
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 3: so great. He's treating me the way I deserve to

752
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 3: be treated. Of course, I mean, I study ants, but

753
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 3: of course I should go on a free, all expenses

754
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: paid trip of Europe.

755
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. And one thing people say, to be fair to Maxwell,

756
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: he introduces the mercenary capitalism to this, but he's always

757
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 2: centered on the science. And one thing the scientists he

758
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 2: work with will say is whenever we had a disagreement,

759
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: he would always ultimately side with the scientists. Right. So

760
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 2: it's after him that things do get much more evil.

761
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: And it's with another company, el Selvier, where things get

762
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: a lot worse. But he makes that process inevitable, even

763
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: though he is he is really dedicated to the scientists

764
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 2: in this period of time. And also I just want

765
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 2: to add to what Adam said, if anyone wants to

766
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 2: put me on a chartered boat tour of the Greek

767
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: Isles to start a journal, I'm in. You've got me,

768
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: you bought me, I'm paid for like yeah. So he

769
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 2: told his deputy director at Pergaman, we don't compete on sales,

770
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: we compete on authors, right, So this is a talent

771
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: driven business. And that's what again, it's very much it

772
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: feels very similar to like Hollywood, I don't like, at

773
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: least at this time. I don't know how much that's

774
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: an influence to him, but he is kind of working

775
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 2: that way. His attitude is that like drawing in more

776
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 2: authors exclusively means like more journals that he owns, and

777
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: thus more sales. In nineteen fifty nine, Pergama had forty journals.

778
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 2: By the mid sixties it would publish more than one

779
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty, which is like almost like ten times

780
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,959
Speaker 2: as many as el Selvier, which is again the most

781
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: evil of these companies today, but at this point is

782
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 2: just barely keeping up as like a competitor to Pergaman.

783
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 2: Maxwell is not like a particularly patriotic businessman. He does

784
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: not see national borders. He has really good connections with

785
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: the USSR. It's always considered weird and part of why

786
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: people are wondering about his spy credentials. Whenever he visits Moscow,

787
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: the Soviet government like puts him up in a mansion

788
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 2: like they really like him, and I think, I mean,

789
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: he definitely is doing some spying, and I'm sure they're

790
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: also putting them up in the mansion because it's like

791
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 2: wired and they want aspire out of him. But he

792
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: has really good connections too. He speaks really good Russian.

793
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 2: He knows a lot of prominent people in the Soviet Union.

794
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: And the evidence for that is that when like the

795
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 2: USSR launches Spudnik, he negotiates within days an English language

796
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: deal with the Russian Academy of Sciences to become the

797
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: exclusive English language publisher of like Russian science, right, all

798
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: of like these. Yeah, so he is connected.

799
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 3: He sounds like a blast to spend a weekend with.

800
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 2: He sounds like a shitload of fun. Yeah right, there's

801
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: so many quotes about this guy, Like all of the

802
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: scientists who work with him are like he was a

803
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,439
Speaker 2: piece of shit. A lot of fun though, Like, yeah,

804
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 2: he was an asshole. Great parties, Yeah, like I really

805
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: enjoyed spending time with this guy who sucked. Yeah. Now,

806
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: obviously Maxwell does not make this, as I said, as

807
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 2: evil as it becomes, but the downsides of what he

808
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: starts are very obvious. Today. The modern field of scientific

809
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: literature is cripplingly expensive for institutions like libraries and colleges,

810
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: the latter of which passed their costs on to students.

811
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: And while Maxwell initially wowed scientists with promises of payouts,

812
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: by the mid sixties he'd helped to normalize a system

813
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: where individual researchers were more reliant on journals than journals

814
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 2: were on them. Per the Guardian, scientists create work under

815
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: their own direction, funded largely by guff and give it

816
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 2: to publishers for free. The publisher pays scientific editors who

817
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 2: judge whether the work is worth publishing and check its grammar,

818
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: but the bulk of the editorial burden checking the scientific

819
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 2: validity and evaluating the experiments. A process known as peer

820
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 2: review is done by working scientists on a volunteer basis.

821
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 2: The publishers then sell the product back to the government

822
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 2: funded institutional and university libraries to be read by scientists who,

823
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: in a collective sense, created the product in the first place.

824
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: It is as if the New Yorker or the economists

825
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 2: demanded that journalists write and edit each other's work for

826
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: free and ask the government to foot the bill. And like,

827
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 2: nothing works like this industry does. And that is, by

828
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: the way, description of how it is.

829
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 3: Now, that's an incredible summary of how it works. And

830
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: like peer review, you know, we're taught in college anyway

831
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 3: that this is a good thing. Yea. The fact that

832
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 3: it's free labor, and not just free labor for science,

833
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 3: but free labor for the journals themselves. Like it begs

834
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 3: the question, like what exactly is the publisher even doing

835
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: other than you know, hitting start on the printing press. Fuck,

836
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 3: which which is the easiest part. Like that's the like

837
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: fucking random house does that shit? Like, what what is

838
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 3: the what is the power that the that these companies have?

839
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 3: Like why why wouldn't a university system just start their

840
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 3: own journal and do this themselves?

841
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean they do. There are some cases

842
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: of that, but like you also you, I mean, it's

843
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: just how kind of everything works in capitalism. There are

844
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: economies of scale. By the time this gets underway, the

845
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 2: big companies are so big you and your dinky journal, like,

846
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: they'll probably just buy you, right, And if the college

847
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: gets offered money for our journal, well it's money.

848
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 3: Right.

849
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: Everyone's thinking short term about shit like this, not how

850
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: it fucks you in the long run, you know, And

851
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 2: again like, no industry works the way scientific publishing does.

852
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: It is such a fucking grift. It's all the grift.

853
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: It's a huge, fucking evil grift.

854
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 3: God, Dad, you got me mad. This is the kind

855
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 3: of thing I normally do segments about you got me

856
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 3: mad about it.

857
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: You can find very good quotes in articles about this,

858
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: including some of the world linked in the show notes,

859
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 2: where there are science like prominent scientists being like the

860
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: primary barrier to scientific progress is the way scientific publishing works, right,

861
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: Like it's I mean, maybe not right now, more administration's doing. Yeah,

862
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: these are a little older articles, but it's a massive problem.

863
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 3: Now.

864
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: The ultimate result of the system that Robert Maxwell built

865
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 2: is one in which, as long as the government maintains

866
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: a priority in funding sciences, the industry is super profitable,

867
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 2: right the US or whoever pays for research, YadA, YadA, YadA.

868
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: And so we'll see what happens to publishing now that

869
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: some of that's starting to change. But uh, yeah, it's

870
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: it's it's interesting.

871
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 3: It's also such a classic example of you know, rent seeking,

872
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 3: as economists you call it, because again, the government is

873
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 3: funding it, the journals are making money off of it.

874
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 3: Like Maxwell made so much money that his daughter is an.

875
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: Heiress billions, billions.

876
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 3: And so profiting off of it, but they do not

877
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 3: put money back into the system, like absolutely, Now they

878
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: are making money off of the production of science, why

879
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 3: not fund some fucking science. But they don't do that.

880
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, why would they do that? Why would they

881
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 2: give any money to anybody that's not That's not what

882
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 2: they're going to do. They're going to take it to

883
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 2: as Maxwell's about to do, buy a palace. And again

884
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: he's the least he's not as bad as the guys

885
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: who replace him, right, because he does ultimately he makes

886
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 2: a lot of times he will make decisions that cost

887
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: him money because a scientist says it's the right thing

888
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 2: to do, and he does ultimately side with his scientists,

889
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: and there's and he's able to do that because there's

890
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 2: so much flex there's so much extra profit he can

891
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,479
Speaker 2: afford to. But the guys who replace him aren't aren't

892
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: even going to have that little level of scruples, right,

893
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 2: They're just not going to give a fuck. And this

894
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: is going to disrupt the timeline of these episodes a

895
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 2: little bit. But in order to talk about kind of

896
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 2: where things are today with scientific publishing, I want to

897
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: quote once more from another Guardian article. The publishing business

898
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 2: is perverse and needless. The Berkeley biologist Michael i And

899
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: wrote in a two thousand and three article for The Guardian,

900
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 2: declaring that it should be a public scandal. Adrian Sutton,

901
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: a physicist at Imperial College, told me that scientists are

902
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: all slaves to publishers. What other industry receives its raw

903
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 2: materials from its customers, gets those same customers to carry

904
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 2: out the quality control on those materials, and then sells

905
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: the same materials back to the customers at a vastly

906
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 2: inflated price. Today, every scientist knows that their career depends

907
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: on being published, and professional success is especially determined by

908
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: getting work into the most prestigious journals. The long, slow,

909
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: nearly directionless work pursued by some of the most influential

910
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: scientists of the twentieth century is no longer a viable

911
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 2: career option under today's system. The father of genetic sequencing,

912
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: Fred Sanger, who published very little in the two decades

913
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 2: between his nineteen fifty eight and nineteen eighty Nobel prizes,

914
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: may well have found himself out of a job. That's actually,

915
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 2: I think a really important point is that so many

916
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: of the foundational discoveries of modernity as we know it

917
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: were not the result of like a team of people

918
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 2: working in for for a company in order to make

919
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 2: a thing. It was the result of a scientists to

920
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 2: had an interest and kind of in a meandering way,

921
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 2: pursued it for decades until he changed life for every

922
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 2: human being. Right, Jonas sal Ketty personal crusade against polio.

923
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: You know, like that doesn't happen. It can't happen. And

924
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,479
Speaker 2: this is part of why right, and that's really bad

925
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 2: for all of us well.

926
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 3: And part of it is the is the social or

927
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 3: career pressure of having to publish, which is an I'm

928
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 3: gonna guess is an entirely different problem like that. That

929
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 3: is the what scientists careers are based on, is the

930
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 3: pressure to publish. But it feeds again back into this system,

931
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 3: like you don't last long in a tenured position if

932
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 3: you never publish anything.

933
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: Right, exactly, Maxwell, we're back to him now. I just

934
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 2: I really felt we should go to like, yeah, this

935
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: is how bad things end. Yeah, right, But that's after

936
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 2: his death. So Maxwell moves out of London. We're still

937
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 2: in this in the sixties. Here he purchases the Headington

938
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: Hill whole estate in Oxford, which had been built in

939
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: eighteen twenty four and become one of the most iconic

940
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: residences in the country. I'll of Sophie pull up the picture.

941
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 2: The noble family who had to live there sold it

942
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 2: off in nineteen fifty three, and Maxwell buys it in

943
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,720
Speaker 2: part because like again, he's not English, he's not naturally

944
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 2: part of high society, but by buying this palace he

945
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: can kind of force himself to be right. Now he

946
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 2: can throw these kind of parties that everyone in high

947
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,919
Speaker 2: society will show up at. And he makes this both

948
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 2: his home and the headquarters of pergam And Press, right,

949
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: and you know, that's kind of the way things work

950
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 2: in the UK. I think still to this day that

951
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 2: like you can skip a bunch of levels of the

952
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 2: social hierarchy if you buy the right house.

953
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 3: You know.

954
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 2: He and Betty had nine children ultimately in nineteen and

955
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 2: this is his life is never his personal life is

956
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: never easy like this. For all that he's like a

957
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 2: wealthy monster, he really has a tough life. In nineteen

958
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: fifty seven, he and Betty lose their three year old

959
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 2: daughter to leukemia. In nineteen sixty one, their oldest son, Michael,

960
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: is in a car crash that leaves him comb abound

961
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: for seven years. He dies finally in nineteen sixty eight,

962
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 2: and that nearly a decade, And this is during his

963
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 2: most productive period as a businessman. His son is just

964
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: in a fucking coma die. It just it kind of

965
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: breaks everyone. Like his family is sort of ruined. As

966
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: a result of this, he and Betty stop talking really

967
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: like they don't. Their relationship is never the same. And

968
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 2: normally when we say that for a man this rich

969
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: it's because and he does cheat on her a bunch,

970
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: but like in this case, it's because, you know, it's

971
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 2: just this just breaks their relationship and it breaks their

972
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: ability to kind of care for their other kids, Like

973
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 2: he stops talking to his surviving children until And I

974
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 2: hate to make anyone sympathetic to Gilan Maxwell, but in

975
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty one, his youngest daughter, Gilan, at age three,

976
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 2: tells her mother, Mummy, I exist in an attempt to

977
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: get attention because like after this accident, they're just ignoring

978
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: their kids so much. Like she has to like state

979
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,959
Speaker 2: to her parents, I'm a person at age three.

980
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 3: So I reported this.

981
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 2: This was in his biography by Preston, and I believe

982
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: this was reported by one of the Maxwell brothers. And

983
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: again this is this is well before the scandal, so.

984
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 3: No, no, I know, I'm just like, well, Gillan wouldn't

985
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 3: remember this, and the parents don't know the kids exist,

986
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 3: so they probably wouldn't remember it.

987
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 2: His brothers are old.

988
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 3: One of the brothers like, oh man, that was a

989
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 3: real bummer when our three year old sister said, Mummy,

990
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 3: I exist.

991
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, that really fucked us all up.

992
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, I still don't bad for.

993
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not saying you should feel bad for her,

994
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 2: but this this should tell you, like how bad things

995
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 2: are in his personal life.

996
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: Not great, still not for a bad for yeah.

997
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. He does start to smother her with affection from

998
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: this point forward, right partly as a result of this,

999
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: and she's kind of the only one in his immediate

1000
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: family that he acts with love towards. After this, he

1001
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: will lash out at his son's and at his wife

1002
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: for the rest of his days, but he never really

1003
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 2: does it Gillen. She becomes coddled and is obviously his favorite.

1004
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: So again, there we go, There we go. Sympathy ended.

1005
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,479
Speaker 2: We're good now, don't have to think about that sad

1006
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 2: three year old anymore. Now. If you recall, Maxwell had

1007
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 2: promised his future wife Betty that during the war he

1008
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 2: would one day be rich and become the prime minister.

1009
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: He had obviously already become rich, and in the mid

1010
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties he starts to work towards political power. In

1011
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, he runs for Parliament in the constituency

1012
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 2: of Buckingham and he wins as a member of the

1013
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 2: Labor Party. And this is a weird side He identifies

1014
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 2: as a socialist his entire life.

1015
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 4: Really, he identifies as a socialist.

1016
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 2: Yep, he strongly identifies as a socialist.

1017
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 3: So he thinks that like public goods should be available

1018
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 3: to the public at low or no cost, subsidized by

1019
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 3: the government.

1020
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's the thing.

1021
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 4: But not scientific research, not scientific research.

1022
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 2: That doesn't count. And also unions don't count. I think

1023
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: he identifies as a socialist because his mom did and

1024
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 2: he he isn't one. He never acts as one. But

1025
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 2: I think that's just a part of his ego. Is

1026
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 2: like he doesn't he knows his He probably knows his

1027
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: mom would not like what he's done with his life

1028
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 2: at this point. But yes, he is, and he is

1029
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: a part of the Labor Party, and he is a

1030
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: He plays a role in the switch from Labor to

1031
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 2: New Labor Right, which is when the British Labor Party

1032
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 2: jettisons the unions right, like Robert Maxwell is part of

1033
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 2: that process. How what does he do we'll talk about that.

1034
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 2: We'll talk about that. Speaking of things, we'll talk about

1035
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 2: here's ads. So Robert has now gotten himself into parliament,

1036
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: is part of Labor and you have to remember again

1037
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 2: he's a socialist and he's also a business owner though,

1038
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 2: and so he hates unions because they compete with his power.

1039
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 2: And so when interviewed after the election, he tells everybody,

1040
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 2: I come from a very far humble farm laboring family

1041
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 2: and would rather cut off my arm than betray my class.

1042
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: And it's true that he does come from a humble farm,

1043
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: laboring family, but there is no bigger class trader than

1044
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: this fucking guy. His political peers who knew him claim

1045
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 2: that he also told them he wanted to become Prime Minister,

1046
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: and one colleague, cited in the book fall later quoted

1047
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 2: him as having admitted, well, of course I'm conservative, but

1048
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: I'm not a member of the establishment, so I've got

1049
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: to become labor, which is a very Trumpian comment, right that, Like,

1050
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 2: I'm not a member of the establishment. I'm a billionaire,

1051
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 2: I own all of science, but I'm not part of

1052
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 2: the establishment fundamentally. So I'm a conservative, but I'm with labor, right,

1053
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 2: I'm actually a progressive somehow. It's like an Elon Musk statement.

1054
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an in group out group thing. I were

1055
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 3: mean to me growing up. I'm not a lord. I'm

1056
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 3: not a lord and lady. I'm not invited to social functions.

1057
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: Therefore I must join this party.

1058
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And he also considers so a big thing.

1059
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: Once he gets into labor is he telling He starts

1060
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,320
Speaker 2: telling everyone else we have to modernize the Labor Party.

1061
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,439
Speaker 2: And what he means by that is our pro union

1062
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,760
Speaker 2: attitudes are outdated. We have to stop being pro union

1063
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 2: right now. This is not initially super popular. A lot

1064
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 2: of unions voting in this period of time. Still they

1065
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: have not been crushed by Thatcher entirely. Eventually, he switched

1066
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 2: out his chauffeured Rolls Royce for an old land Rover

1067
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 2: to try to portray himself as a man of the people.

1068
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 2: And like, Buddy, a land Rover is still an expensive car.

1069
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: Like that's like, no, I'm gonna trade my Maserati for

1070
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: a Lambo so people know I'm a working man, right,

1071
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1072
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 3: Man, is that chauffeurd? Now I just row over the

1073
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 3: peasants under my own power.

1074
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,720
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. So this did not have the intended effect,

1075
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 2: and although he was re elected in nineteen sixty six,

1076
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 2: he ultimately lost his seat in nineteen seventy and failed

1077
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 2: to win it back during the next cycle. Still, Adam,

1078
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 2: you'll be happy to hear this. He achieved the goal

1079
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: of every politician in the sixties and seventies having an

1080
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: awkward photo taken with Henry Kissinger. Just look at the

1081
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 2: two of them. Just look and Maxwell's over in the

1082
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 2: corner there, he's just like smiling in the corner, looking

1083
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: like a mob boss next to Kissinger. Eh, I love

1084
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 2: this picture.

1085
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 3: That guy's a wheeler dealer. He's drunk already. He's like

1086
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 3: I can smell him based on this photo. Does that

1087
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:26,879
Speaker 3: make sense?

1088
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 4: Almost like mothballs and vodka.

1089
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, my end. Maybe a little aqua velve in there too.

1090
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, he smells like the back room of

1091
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 2: an Italian deli that's actually a mob front.

1092
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 3: He's going, how you're doing, sweetheart? He's like pat and

1093
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 3: the waitresses ass like this guy is such a piece

1094
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 3: of shit.

1095
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 2: It's shocking to me again that he's like he's like

1096
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 2: a Czech Ruthenian Jewish guy. Because if you had told

1097
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 2: me this man was the most Italian fellow ever, I'd

1098
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, that guy is Italian as shit. Look

1099
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 2: at him like he has the face of a mob boss,

1100
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 2: Like you could have put him in the soprano.

1101
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 3: It really is the twentieth century dream, right, Yeah, of

1102
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 3: starting in this you know, little backwater and becoming a

1103
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 3: sort of like poly national wheeler dealer, billionaire player asshole.

1104
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, he does it all, and he is, like again,

1105
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 2: a monster, but the only guy I've ever heard of

1106
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 2: who you can really say like, yeah, he is kind

1107
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 2: of less a self made billionaire, like he did come

1108
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 2: from nothing, Yeah, and then destroyed science.

1109
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 3: Great, I think there's more. I think that was more

1110
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 3: possible after an event like World War Two, where everything

1111
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 3: gets scrambled and you can rush in and pick up

1112
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 3: the pieces. Yeah.

1113
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 2: Well, I mean yeah, I mean think about it. Both

1114
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,399
Speaker 2: Maxwell and Kissinger really are both like they both start

1115
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 2: their lives as like shrapnel from this horrific conflict, persecuted

1116
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 2: by the Nazis, and then the world of possibilities that

1117
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,439
Speaker 2: opens up in the wake of the Second World War

1118
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,839
Speaker 2: allows both of them to reach these incredibly high levels

1119
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 2: of power. So yeah, I mean, I think you've got

1120
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 2: a really good point there that, like the way the

1121
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 2: world opens up after World War Two makes a lot

1122
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 2: of these guys as improbable lives possible.

1123
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 3: I can't wait for World War three.

1124
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: It's gonna be great. It's gonna be thinking.

1125
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 3: About just think about all the new billionaires we're gonna get,

1126
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna be.

1127
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 4: Like, I wish I was a younger man.

1128
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish I was just trying to get my

1129
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 3: start after World War Three, you know, after the Boks

1130
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 3: go off and I could build the nuclear mitigation business.

1131
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, but maybe we'll maybe we'll get a chance

1132
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 2: to fight some SS guys on a farm, you know.

1133
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: You know, at least there's that Adam that happen It

1134
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 2: could happen here. Yeah. Through the late nineteen sixties, Maxwell

1135
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: repeatedly tried to expand his empire into news media. He

1136
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 2: attempts to buy News of the World in nineteen sixty

1137
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 2: eight and The Sun in nineteen sixty nine, and Rupert

1138
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 2: Murdoch beats him both times. This enrages him. He considers

1139
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 2: himself Rupert Murdock's nemesis. Rupert Murdoch is always like, oh

1140
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 2: I I've never even heard of that guy. Who are

1141
00:57:58,080 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: you talking about? Nemesis?

1142
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 3: Nah, but not making him less sympathetic.

1143
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 2: Though by this part nativism does play a role in

1144
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 2: him losing News of the World because an editorial when

1145
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 2: he's trying to buy it declares, this is a British

1146
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 2: newspaper run by British people. Let's keep it that way.

1147
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 4: What was he considered at the time He was British.

1148
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 2: They knew, yeah, but they figured they found out he'd

1149
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 2: been born Yon. He hadn't been born Yon, but that's

1150
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 2: what they thought.

1151
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 3: This guy's a Ruthenian.

1152
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 2: He's a Ruthenian. Yeah, So his political career is uneven

1153
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 2: at best. Business seemed to be a welcoming place for him,

1154
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 2: at least until late nineteen sixty nine, after he negotiated

1155
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: which should have been a great deal to sell pergam

1156
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 2: And Press to a wealthy American investor, Saul Steinberg. Unfortunately

1157
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 2: for our boy, Maxwell illegally concealed the true value of

1158
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 2: the company, basically pretending it was a lot worth more

1159
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 2: than it was via what writer Robert Philpott calls smoke

1160
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 2: in mirrors accounting practices. He gets removed from the board

1161
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: of directors in the UK starts an investigation in his

1162
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 2: activities that concludes in seventy one after finding huge amounts

1163
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: of fraudulent payments, moved from one department to another to

1164
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 2: hide the cost of other investments that went bad, and

1165
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: prop up segments of his business that were struggling. The

1166
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 2: report concluded, Robert Maxwell is not, in our opinion, a

1167
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 2: person who can be relied on to exercise proper stewardship

1168
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 2: of a public company. And at the end of the story,

1169
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 2: right obviously you know. Yeah. Now five years later he

1170
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 2: takes control of Pergament again. He's running it all and

1171
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 2: his sudden rise and fall earns him the nickname the

1172
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 2: bouncing check like Czeh, which is not bad. It's not bad,

1173
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 2: great work the British press good at some things. Yeah,

1174
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 2: I love that shit. And for the next ten years

1175
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 2: after this unprobable rise back, he goes from strength to strength.

1176
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 2: He buys Europe's largest printing company, he becomes owner of

1177
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 2: The Mirror, that Britain's largest left leaning paper. And now

1178
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 2: that he finally owns a paper, this is how he

1179
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 2: really plays a major role in the shift to new

1180
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 2: labor because he starts using it the biggest left leaning

1181
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 2: paper in the UK, to attack union organizers. He runs

1182
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 2: what Socialist Worker what the Socialist Worker described as a

1183
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 2: smear campaign against Arthur Scargill, head of the mine Workers union.

1184
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 2: This is during a big fight between the mine workers

1185
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 2: and Thatcher. I believe quote Scargill and the socialist values

1186
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 2: he represented were seen as a barrier to the modernization

1187
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 2: of the Labor Party. The vile attacks, which lasted for

1188
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 2: the better part of a year, were baseless, yet they

1189
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 2: did terrible damage. And he does this over and over again. Right,

1190
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 2: he has like a one man war against the unions

1191
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 2: in the UK, wielding the left wing paper to execute it.

1192
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 3: He just has animus for unions because he's a business owner.

1193
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 3: And that's the way the wind is blowing.

1194
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 2: And that's the I think. The way the wind is

1195
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 2: blowing doesn't hurt. I think he is a personal I

1196
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 2: should be able to I know what's best. I should

1197
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 2: be able to make all the decisions. And if you

1198
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 2: got a union, the boss doesn't make all the decisions, right,

1199
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 2: they're restricted to some extent.

1200
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 3: Now, that's what anti us is fundamentally about. It's about

1201
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 3: anyone else having power. Unions are about workers having power,

1202
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 3: and right, the people on top don't want them to

1203
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 3: have the power.

1204
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 2: Right exactly, And Maxwell the socialist uses this big left

1205
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 2: leaning paper as an engine to push labor against unions.

1206
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: And unfortunately, while he does this, the paper grows in

1207
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 2: circulation and becomes more profitable than ever because again he's

1208
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 2: really good at the nuts and bolts of running a newspaper.

1209
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 2: Like he's just he's like it's like he's like almost

1210
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 2: like lebron right, Like he's just got this built in

1211
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 2: skill he was bored with for knowing how to make

1212
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 2: a paper profitable. I don't know why we.

1213
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 3: Could use a little bit of that right now, to

1214
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 3: be quite honest.

1215
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need another one of those who's not evil.

1216
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1217
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 4: Now he's got Bezos and Patrick soun Schong.

1218
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, So he buys more publications, he becomes a medium,

1219
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 2: even on such a scale that Bob Bagdikian, the dean

1220
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 2: of Berkeley's Graduate School of Journalism, declared, neither Caesar, nor

1221
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 2: Franklin Roosevelt nor any pope has commanded much power to

1222
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 2: shape information on which so many people depend. Wow, and

1223
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 2: Murdoch is obviously his rival at this time. But this

1224
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 2: is kind of before Murdoch has done most of what

1225
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 2: he's going to get famous for. Like Fox News isn't

1226
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 2: really a thing yet. And Murdoch to a degree cribs

1227
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 2: a little bit from this guy's notes in terms of like, oh, really,

1228
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 2: like he's taking some notes, not that he's not doing

1229
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 2: any of this before, but he's influenced a little bit

1230
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 2: by the degree to which Maxwell is able to turn

1231
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 2: these publications he owns to push his own agendas. And

1232
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 2: he is a famously terrible guy to work for. Per

1233
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 2: a biography in the Times of Israel. He bullied and

1234
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 2: humiliated staff, relentlessly calling his ludicrously titled chief of staff

1235
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 2: at four am one Sunday morning to ask him the time,

1236
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 2: and instilled a culture of distrust and rivalry. He bugged

1237
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 2: his staff, by which I mean he bugged them with

1238
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 2: surveillance devices, spending hours alone listening to the recordings for

1239
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 2: evidence of disloyalty, and even had them followed. Thank Christ.

1240
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 3: Like, dude, you're obsessed with me. You're spending hours alone

1241
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 3: listening to the recordings of me.

1242
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of flattering, you are.

1243
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 3: What you're really pulling into focus now, is this man

1244
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 3: is a long lost succession character?

1245
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, nailed it.

1246
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 3: Where is the Holocaust surviving Ruthenian Czech Jew you know

1247
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 3: who managed to survive and build an empire on that show?

1248
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 3: That's a wonderful character.

1249
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: He would have He would have participated in boor on

1250
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 1: the floor. There's no way.

1251
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, he sounds like he created or on the floor.

1252
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah he is on the floor.

1253
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the floor. We missed a flashback scene if

1254
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 2: you have machine gunning the ss alas. So this is

1255
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 2: and again to kind of play on the succession vibes.

1256
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 2: His sons are he puts in his business right, and

1257
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 2: he fires them. He fires his son Ian Maxwell because

1258
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 2: like he doesn't have he's not like waiting for him

1259
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 2: when he lands on a plane one day. He instead

1260
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 2: like sends a chauffe a vehicle, and so Maxwell fires

1261
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 2: his kid. And Ian's first words when he gets fired

1262
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 2: or thank Christ, I'm finally out of the madhouse. And

1263
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 2: then three months later he hires Ian back on half

1264
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,439
Speaker 2: his salary. He's just such a piece of shit.

1265
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is very success. You're in, you're out, you're up,

1266
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 3: you're down. Yeah, Dad loves you. He doesn't love you.

1267
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 3: You never know where you stand except you'll never be free.

1268
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I definitely will never be free. Now. That

1269
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: quote comes from a massive piece on Maxwell in the

1270
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 2: Times of Israel, and The Times of Israel's covering him

1271
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 2: in particular because in the mid eighties, after decades of

1272
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 2: really ignoring his Jewish heritage, he meets a guy who's like,

1273
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 2: you should go to Israel, and he becomes all in

1274
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 2: and starts investing massively in the Israeli economy. His wealth

1275
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 2: gives him instant access to the Prime Minister, Yitzak Shmir,

1276
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 2: and he announces his intention, I'm going to put a

1277
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 2: quarter of a billion dollars into Israel. And he normally

1278
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 2: lies when he says stuff like this, but he does that,

1279
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,919
Speaker 2: and he uses his profits from the Mirror in order

1280
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 2: to do this, and I'm going to quote from his biography.

1281
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 2: Over the next four years, thanks to his mere group profits,

1282
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 2: Maxwell pumped millions into the country, buying newspapers, investing in

1283
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 2: high tech and pharma companies, and in the process becoming

1284
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 2: the largest single investor in Israel's economy. Maxwell also began

1285
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 2: to pass on useful information to the Masad, and boy

1286
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 2: is he useful to the Masad. In nineteen eighty six,

1287
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 2: he tipped, so there's this scientist, this Israeli scientist, Mordechai Venunu,

1288
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 2: who's part of like Israel's nuclear program, that Israel still

1289
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 2: does not acknowledge that they have nukes. Right, we know

1290
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 2: they like everyone knows, but it's like kind of them. Now,

1291
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 2: I don't believe. I still don't believe they've officially acknowledged

1292
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 2: their nuclear capacity. I should actually double check on that.

1293
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 2: I know it took a long time, but they have

1294
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 2: not at this point right like they it is not

1295
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 2: officially stated. It's just kind of a thing everyone knows.

1296
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 2: And Mordecai goes to the British press with insight info

1297
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: about Israel's newke Clear program, and one of the papers

1298
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 2: he goes to is The Mirror, and so he leaks

1299
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 2: to Maxwell's paper, and Maxwell gives him up to the

1300
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 2: Massad and he's jailed for eighteen years, which is like

1301
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 2: in journalism terms, bad.

1302
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, to give somebody up to a foreign intelligence service

1303
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 3: and then they're.

1304
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 2: Jailed, Yes, real bad.

1305
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, usually they try not to do that.

1306
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, bad publisher moved. Hey Robert here, and I just

1307
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 2: wanted to come in and note that the story of Mordecai,

1308
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 2: even who knew, was a lot more complicated than just

1309
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 2: Robert Maxwell or The Mirror. The Mirror is not the

1310
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 2: first publication that he linked to. I think he went

1311
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 2: after the Sunday Times first, but Robert Maxwell is involved.

1312
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 2: It's a little bit unclear. It seems like a situation

1313
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 2: where web be more than one person kind of went

1314
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 2: to the Masad about what he was saying. Uh, but yeah,

1315
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 2: Maxwell definitely was involved when somebody else sold the story

1316
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 2: to the Sunday Mirror and he went to the Masad

1317
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 2: over it. So anyway, Mordecai is a very interesting guy, obviously,

1318
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 2: very courageous guy. Story is really worth looking into. I

1319
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 2: also did want to note because we had a question

1320
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 2: about this earlier, Israel still does not officially admit that

1321
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 2: they have nuclear weapons, although they're believed to have somewhere

1322
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 2: between like one and four hundred warheads. It's that their

1323
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 2: kind of official defense posture strategy is to neither confirmed

1324
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 2: nor deny that they do. It kind of became clear

1325
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 2: in the late seventies that they did, but this is

1326
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,440
Speaker 2: not something that is like officially admitted. So anyway, just

1327
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 2: wanted to add that clarification. Now, there are allegations, unfortunately,

1328
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 2: because he's involved in the Massad and he definitely is,

1329
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 2: there's also insane allegations, right, like you can find every

1330
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 2: conspiracy connected to this guy, and he's basically framed as

1331
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 2: like having been a major massad agent, and that's just

1332
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 2: really not accurate. One of the big things you'll hear

1333
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 2: is that and this comes from the book Robert Maxwell

1334
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 2: Israel Super Spy, which is say somewhat exaggerated. And they

1335
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 2: alleged that he stole a piece of surveillance software called

1336
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 2: Promise without an E, which was programmed to let law

1337
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: enforcement agencies track criminals and having a backdoor installed in it.

1338
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 2: And the Baltimore Sun sums up their argument. They report

1339
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:20,599
Speaker 2: that Maxwell sold the program to most of the important

1340
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 2: government intelligence services in the world at a personal profit

1341
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:25,759
Speaker 2: of more than half a billion dollars. Into the program,

1342
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 2: they write, Israeli technicians collaborating with Maxwell implanted an electric

1343
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 2: trap door that allowed Israeli intelligence to tap many of

1344
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 2: the highest state secrets of the Soviet Union, Britain, the US,

1345
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 2: and other nations. And this is not true, and it's

1346
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 2: also not true in a way that is blaming is

1347
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 2: denying what the US government did, because Promise is a

1348
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 2: real thing and it really was used to tap a

1349
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 2: bunch of governments. But the US government was the inciting

1350
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 2: agent here, right, this is one of ours. Now Maxwell

1351
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 2: is involved, I'm going to explain what happened. So this

1352
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 2: software was designed by a software developer in Washington called

1353
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 2: inns Law, so prosecutors could monitor case records and keep

1354
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 2: track of different people in the system. Right, Like, that

1355
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 2: is the purpose, So prosecutors can monitor the progression of

1356
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 2: cases against different acused criminals. It was developed under a

1357
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:18,600
Speaker 2: Department of Justice grants, so the dog was licensed to

1358
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 2: use it. But the license said the government cannot modify,

1359
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: create derivative versions of it, or sell it. And the

1360
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 2: Reagan Administration's like, oh, fuck it, what do we just

1361
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:29,679
Speaker 2: do that anyway?

1362
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 3: Right?

1363
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 2: Per an article in The New Statesman, Under the Ronald

1364
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:36,799
Speaker 2: Reagan administration's covert intelligence initiative known as Follow the Money,

1365
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 2: that the NSA misappropriated promise for sale to banks in

1366
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, the version of promise sold by the

1367
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,520
Speaker 2: NSA had been espionage enabled through a backdoor in the program,

1368
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 2: allowing the agency to covertly conduct real time electronic surveillance

1369
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 2: of the flow of money to suspected terrorists and other

1370
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 2: perceived threats to US national interests. A letter from the

1371
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 2: US Department of Justice in nineteen eighty five, later obtained

1372
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 2: by ins Law because the company suits the shit out

1373
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,839
Speaker 2: of the government for this documented more plans for covert

1374
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,719
Speaker 2: sale and distribution of the espionage enabled version of Promise,

1375
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 2: this time to governments in the Middle East, which would

1376
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:12,520
Speaker 2: surreptitiously allow the US to spy on foreign intelligence agencies.

1377
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 2: The letter outlined how sales of the software were to

1378
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:18,759
Speaker 2: be facilitated by the late Saudi billionaire Khalid bin Mafus

1379
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 2: and the arms dealers Adnan Koshogi and manuchre Gorbanafar. Promise

1380
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 2: should be delivered without paperwork, customs or delay, it stated,

1381
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 2: and all of the transactions paid for through a Swiss

1382
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 2: bank account. So number one, this is on us. The

1383
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 2: Massad does not start this program and they don't put

1384
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 2: the back It's not Israeli technicians. You put the back door,

1385
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 2: and Reagan's guys do, right, A bunch of the shadiest

1386
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 2: op Now, Israel does get involved in this, and they

1387
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:50,160
Speaker 2: do profit from this, but it starts with us. A

1388
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 2: bunch of the shadiest operators in the nineteen eighties are

1389
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:57,040
Speaker 2: allowed to sell privated versions of Promise. Basically, the Attorney

1390
01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 2: General under Reagan ed Meese will give you the like

1391
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 2: basically license you to sell pirated compromised versions of promise

1392
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 2: to foreign governments if you're his friend. Like, that's how

1393
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 2: that's part of how this works. It's like a way

1394
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 2: the Reagan administration is like rewarding loyal people. Is like, hey,

1395
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 2: you've got a good Hey you did us good and

1396
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 2: you've got a good connection over in you know, Ecuador

1397
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 2: or whatever. Why don't we let you sell this to

1398
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 2: their government And then we get a backdoor into the government.

1399
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:24,760
Speaker 2: And this guy gets to make some money, right and

1400
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,839
Speaker 2: one of the people who gets tapped as a result

1401
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 2: of this program because they want to sell promise to Iraq,

1402
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 2: Libya and several other Middle Eastern countries and this is hard,

1403
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 2: so they enlist the help of a Masad guy named

1404
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 2: Rafi Eitan, And that guy in the Massad is like,

1405
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 2: maybe a guy at the Massad isn't the best dude

1406
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 2: to sell to Iraq, But you know who can sell

1407
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:49,680
Speaker 2: shit to anybody? Bobby Maxwell, baby, And that's where he

1408
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,280
Speaker 2: comes into this. Right now, Gordon Thomas, who's the author

1409
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 2: of that Israel Super Spy book, will claim he's the one.

1410
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 2: He's the source of the claim that Maxwell makes half

1411
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 2: a billion in licenses doing this. I don't know how

1412
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 2: much Maxwell really makes, but he doesn't start like he is.

1413
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 2: He's kind of a middleman in the process, and Thomas

1414
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:09,679
Speaker 2: portrays him as like at the core of the process.

1415
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 2: But this is like fucked up, and he does sell.

1416
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 2: He sells, i think to the Soviet Union, he sells

1417
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 2: to a shitload of governments that allows the US to

1418
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 2: spy on them, and he profits personally from this. So

1419
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 2: this is like a lot of skulduggery it's involved in.

1420
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:23,840
Speaker 2: It's just a lot more centered on ed Meeson the

1421
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 2: Reagan administration than some of these other claims make. And

1422
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 2: obviously Israel profits from this too because they are using

1423
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:34,679
Speaker 2: Maxwell to sell it to countries that they want intel on, right,

1424
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:37,160
Speaker 2: So that is happening. That is a part of this story,

1425
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 2: it's just not the start of it. Now. There are

1426
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,640
Speaker 2: numerous allegations of Maxwell's fingers in arms dealers that the

1427
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:47,480
Speaker 2: Israeli government found useful to and some of these are true,

1428
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 2: but it's not. It's often portrayed as he is an

1429
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:53,680
Speaker 2: arms dealer. He's not. He is a guy who knows logistics,

1430
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 2: and so when a friend is like, hey, we need

1431
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:58,640
Speaker 2: the shipment to get through this port, He's like I

1432
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:01,679
Speaker 2: know guys there, I'll make sure it moves right. He's

1433
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 2: a you know, that's the kind of thing he's useful for.

1434
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 2: And so's he is connected to the Masad because he's

1435
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 2: a powerful, rich businessman who desperately wants to prove his

1436
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 2: loyalty to the country, to like to Israel, and has

1437
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 2: connections everywhere, and that's kind of his use. And there's

1438
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 2: a much more accurate look at his spying and his

1439
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:25,519
Speaker 2: involvement in intelligence agencies in the book Foreign Body, The

1440
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 2: Secret Life of Robert Maxwell by Russell Davies, and Davies

1441
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 2: outlines the dimensions of these shady dealings in a way

1442
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 2: that I think is a lot more accurate, because he

1443
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 2: argues it's hard to imagine Maxwell himself doing an arms

1444
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:41,599
Speaker 2: deal directly, right quote, but he could certainly have been

1445
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 2: of use securing the cooperation of foreign governments when it

1446
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 2: came to routing illicit cargoes through their unadvertised and outlawed destinations. Maxwell,

1447
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 2: he argues, would have been insulted to have been accused

1448
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 2: of working as a common spy or agent, because again,

1449
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 2: he is on first a first name basis with every

1450
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 2: Prime minister of Israel during this period of time, right, like,

1451
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,479
Speaker 2: he's not like an employee of the Massade. He is

1452
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:08,639
Speaker 2: incredibly he's way he's so highly connected. By nineteen eighty eight,

1453
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 2: Maxwell estimated his own net worth at about four billion dollars,

1454
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:14,600
Speaker 2: and the parties he threw, attended by everyone who was

1455
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 2: anyone in UK politics, were legendary. John Preston describes his

1456
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight birthday an event that had to take

1457
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 2: three days because more than three thousand people attended. There's

1458
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 2: like tiers of guests in terms of like which day

1459
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:31,559
Speaker 2: you're allowed to be at. Wow, it's it's it's fucked up.

1460
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 3: It really seems like, you know, he did some bad shit,

1461
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 3: but he wins me back with the parties. The parties

1462
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 3: sound great.

1463
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,680
Speaker 2: The parties sound great. The arm stealing, the spying on

1464
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 2: every foreign government in the world, for the CIA and

1465
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:47,479
Speaker 2: the Massade. I don't love that. But the parties. There's

1466
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,759
Speaker 2: one like Margaret Thatcher gives a speech at his birthday

1467
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 2: this year where she talks about how awesome she is

1468
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 2: because he doesn't like her. They're like enemies in public,

1469
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,320
Speaker 2: but she's like, I think he secretly likes me, and

1470
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:01,719
Speaker 2: then explains all the ways that she thinks she's cool.

1471
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 2: Like it's such a fucking Thatcher moment. Oh that said,

1472
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 2: it is sick. I want to read a quote from

1473
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 2: John Preston's book that sort of gives you a description

1474
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 2: of the vibe of this party. On the night of

1475
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 2: the first party, guests passed down a receiving line where

1476
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 2: they were greeted by Maxwell, Betty, and all seven of

1477
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:22,679
Speaker 2: their children. Some of the guests arrived bearing birthday presents.

1478
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 2: The broadcaster David Frost turned up with a five hundred

1479
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 2: pound bottle of wine. Unaware of how much it had cost,

1480
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:31,599
Speaker 2: Maxwell chef later tipped it into a beef stew. As

1481
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 2: guests sipped their drinks, the band of the Cold Stream

1482
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:38,040
Speaker 2: Guards marched back and forth across the lawn. Before dinner started,

1483
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,679
Speaker 2: Robert and Betty made their formal entrance into the marquis

1484
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:43,879
Speaker 2: to an announcement from the Master of Ceremonies, Ladies and gentlemen,

1485
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,840
Speaker 2: would you please welcome your host and hostess, Robert and

1486
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Maxwell, and a fanfare of Harold trumpetears. Everyone stood

1487
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 2: to applaud a lot with a row of medals pinned

1488
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:56,479
Speaker 2: to his black tailcoat. Maxwell was wearing a large white

1489
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 2: enamel cross on a chain around his neck. This was

1490
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 2: the Order of the White Rose of Finland, a decoration

1491
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:04,640
Speaker 2: normally given to foreign heads of state and recognition of

1492
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 2: outstanding civilian or military conduct. Betty Maxwell wore a dress

1493
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:12,439
Speaker 2: made of gold embroidered tul over yellow taffeta silk. So

1494
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 2: like parties, parties like real rich people parties.

1495
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 3: See I missed the boat with World War two. If

1496
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 3: I had just been able to murder a couple Germans,

1497
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 3: a couple dozen Germans, I could have been on the

1498
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 3: road to be being covered in silver taffeta. Yeah, and

1499
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 3: having Margaret Thatcher sing my praises.

1500
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of, we'll sing her own praises at your birthday. Yeah,

1501
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:37,920
Speaker 2: classic Thatcher. Make it all about her.

1502
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 3: The greatest generation though.

1503
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:44,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely the greatest generation. There's like a really funny

1504
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 2: moment from this where like one of his friends goes,

1505
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 2: like during this party kind of like finds his way

1506
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 2: walking around like the back of the house outside of

1507
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 2: like the areas they're supposed to be partying in, and

1508
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:58,760
Speaker 2: notices that, like, well, all the furniture outside of like

1509
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 2: the big public areas kind of looks like shit and

1510
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:03,120
Speaker 2: all of the books on his bookshelf for fake, Like

1511
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 2: they're made out of cardboard. They're like fake books. Now,

1512
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 2: Preston says, only the books concealing hy stereo system were fake.

1513
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, but this is kind of evidence that

1514
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,360
Speaker 2: as rich as he was on paper, and this is

1515
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 2: the thing, he's worth four point four billion on paper

1516
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 2: or something like that, he's not actually doing as well

1517
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 2: as it seems, right, And nineteen ninety eight is nearer

1518
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 2: to the end of his time in the limelight than

1519
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:35,679
Speaker 2: the beginning. That year, the same year as this fucking party,

1520
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 2: he spends two point six billion dollars buying US publisher McMillan,

1521
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:43,240
Speaker 2: and that's a billion dollars more than its own shareholders

1522
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:46,080
Speaker 2: value it at. Like he kind of as a musk

1523
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:48,040
Speaker 2: where he's like, I'll offer you a two point six

1524
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 2: billion and they're like, we were not going to ask

1525
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 2: for that much, but oh fucking k right. Yeah, he

1526
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 2: had to borrow from forty four banks to afford it.

1527
01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 2: And he does this not because again he's got profitable businesses.

1528
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 2: Preston says, this is out of desperation because Murdoch is

1529
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 2: buying more and more publishers and he's like desperate to win.

1530
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 2: He doesn't want Murdoch to get McMillan, so he kind

1531
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 2: of endangers his entire empire buying it in order to

1532
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:18,040
Speaker 2: beat Rupert Murdoch. And again, all Murdoch will say about

1533
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:21,439
Speaker 2: this guy is like, who huh what guy?

1534
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 3: That must make him even angrier. I don't know her,

1535
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:28,519
Speaker 3: says Rupert Murdoch.

1536
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:30,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway, back

1537
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:35,800
Speaker 2: to being evil. In March of nineteen ninety one, he

1538
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 2: started making a series of ill advised acquisitions in New

1539
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 2: York media. He purchased the New York Daily News, which

1540
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 2: was like the oldest daily paper in New York at

1541
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 2: the time, but also in disastrous financial condition. There's like

1542
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:51,639
Speaker 2: a horrible strike going on. It is not a good bye.

1543
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:55,759
Speaker 2: It's such a bad buye. The owners pay him sixty

1544
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 2: million dollars to take it, and they pay him that

1545
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:01,880
Speaker 2: because it's in a lot more debt than that.

1546
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:02,599
Speaker 3: Wow.

1547
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 2: Right, it's such a bad buy.

1548
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:07,719
Speaker 3: So they're getting off scott free by paying a different

1549
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 3: dude to own it.

1550
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, please take this shit and all of its

1551
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:13,040
Speaker 2: debts off of our fucking hands.

1552
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:13,720
Speaker 3: Wow.

1553
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:16,639
Speaker 2: And again his assumption is because in the past. Every

1554
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 2: time he's got a paper, he's been able to turn

1555
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 2: it around right and make it soup. He's got this skill.

1556
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 2: So he sails his yacht, the Lady Gillin, named after

1557
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 2: his daughter, into the City harbor to take control of

1558
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 2: the paper. He gives us like grand speech on the street,

1559
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 2: and like there's all these articles in New York papers

1560
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 2: being like the savior of New York media, you know.

1561
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:38,280
Speaker 2: And there's also a bunch of people who had worked

1562
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:40,280
Speaker 2: for him in different papers in the UK, being like

1563
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:42,519
Speaker 2: he's actually a giant dick. No one can stand to

1564
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:44,719
Speaker 2: work for him. This is not going to end well

1565
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:48,120
Speaker 2: for any of you, and it sure as shit doesn't. Right,

1566
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 2: So the eighties comes to an end, sadly, I know

1567
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:55,639
Speaker 2: we're all still mourning that. And suddenly there's a big

1568
01:19:55,720 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 2: economic pop, right, and interest rates skyrocket and all all

1569
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:02,639
Speaker 2: of this debt that he had taken on to keep

1570
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 2: building this. He's always robbing Peter to pay Paul, like

1571
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 2: a certain guy that we all know about right now.

1572
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 2: Like he's always in debt to a lot of banks

1573
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 2: for all this stuff. And suddenly it gets a lot

1574
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:18,439
Speaker 2: more expensive to service that debt. And so in nineteen

1575
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:21,920
Speaker 2: ninety one. He has to sell pergam and press in order,

1576
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 2: and that's his baby, in order to keep everything else afloat.

1577
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:30,040
Speaker 2: And that's also the profitable part of his empire. So

1578
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 2: he has now sold the golden goose to pay for

1579
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,519
Speaker 2: the shit that's horribly in debt that he can't make

1580
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 2: a profit on. Not a great move. So what do

1581
01:20:39,240 --> 01:20:41,720
Speaker 2: you do if you're a guy who sucks ass and

1582
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:44,800
Speaker 2: hates unions and hates your employees and suddenly you're out

1583
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 2: of money and you need to keep funding all of

1584
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 2: this debt? Where do you go when interest rates are

1585
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:53,360
Speaker 2: fucked and you simply can't take any more loans from banks?

1586
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 3: Racking my brain, where do you go?

1587
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 2: Well, you know where. There's a lot of money in

1588
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:02,360
Speaker 2: any given company that's been around this long with a

1589
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 2: large workforce.

1590
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:05,879
Speaker 4: The pension plan. He raids the pension plan.

1591
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:08,080
Speaker 2: He raids the pinch. He steals nearly half a billion

1592
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:09,679
Speaker 2: dollars from the pension plan.

1593
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:12,200
Speaker 5: Now I'm mad. Now I don't like him, Yeah, oh,

1594
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:15,919
Speaker 5: now I don't like him. He destroys so many people's

1595
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:19,680
Speaker 5: lives and retirements. He fucking robs this pension plan, right,

1596
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 5: and it's not even enough because his debts are well

1597
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 5: over a billion dollars. Banks are hounding him constantly. He

1598
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 5: starts gambling and London casinos. All he'll do is like

1599
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:34,360
Speaker 5: gamble and then watch James Bond movies while leading takeout.

1600
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 5: And this is kind of his mental state. He's in

1601
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:40,240
Speaker 5: this period of collapse. And also right around this time,

1602
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 5: it becomes known that he is being investigated for war

1603
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 5: crimes in World War Two because he wrote letters to

1604
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:49,719
Speaker 5: his wife and talked about him like to journalists about

1605
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 5: like again I'm machined gun prisoners. Yeah, and again it's

1606
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:57,360
Speaker 5: the least bad thing he ever did. But so he's

1607
01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:00,760
Speaker 5: got that too. He's got all these debts. Empire is

1608
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:03,200
Speaker 5: about to collapse. When he set sail on his yacht,

1609
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:06,439
Speaker 5: the Lady Gillen on November first, nineteen ninety one. He's

1610
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 5: getting letters constantly from different banks being like, hey, this

1611
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:14,719
Speaker 5: is overdue. Can you even prove that you're solvent in anymore?

1612
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 5: Swiss Bank is threatening to go public and it has

1613
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:21,160
Speaker 5: told the London police that he's broken a bunch of laws.

1614
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 5: So he's in a lot of trouble. And around five

1615
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:29,639
Speaker 5: am on November first, I think it's November first, nineteen

1616
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:33,479
Speaker 5: ninety one, he falls overboard off the stem of his

1617
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 5: yacht as it passes towards Tenerif, and his body is

1618
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 5: fished out of the ocean about twelve hours later by

1619
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:48,599
Speaker 5: a Spanish National Rescue Service helicopter. Nobody knows precisely what happened.

1620
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:52,080
Speaker 5: The thing that you will encounter most commonly is that

1621
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 5: the Masad had him killed. And I don't see any

1622
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 5: reason to believe that. For one thing, he receives a

1623
01:22:58,439 --> 01:23:02,439
Speaker 5: hero's funeral in Israel, like, attended by the Prime Minister

1624
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 5: and the Israeli President Shimone Perez is there, right, They

1625
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:08,920
Speaker 5: give him like okay, so this is this is what

1626
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:11,879
Speaker 5: the Israeli president says at his funeral. Kings and barons

1627
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:15,719
Speaker 5: besieged his doorstep. He was a figure of almost mythological stature.

1628
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:19,120
Speaker 5: But there are like allegations that basically he tried to

1629
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 5: blackmail the Masade to get them to pay him four

1630
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:26,280
Speaker 5: hundred million dollars, and it, I don't know, doesn't seem

1631
01:23:26,320 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 5: like the kind of move he'd have made. Again, he's

1632
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 5: a steal the pension plan guy.

1633
01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:34,680
Speaker 3: People treat these like spy agencies, as though like they

1634
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:38,040
Speaker 3: always have reason to kill anybody at any time. Yes,

1635
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:41,600
Speaker 3: that Like there's some they're like a dau Sex makina

1636
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:44,639
Speaker 3: that people use for a simple explanation to make themselves

1637
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 3: seem smart, where like why would they why?

1638
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 2: Why? Like for what they Israel wasn't angry at him.

1639
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 3: It's the most annoying thing in the history analysis is

1640
01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:59,559
Speaker 3: people making this claim, well the mesade Adam, why what

1641
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:01,080
Speaker 3: is that? You know?

1642
01:24:01,479 --> 01:24:04,080
Speaker 2: Again, he was the number one investor over there. He

1643
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 2: was extremely popular there. He had destroyed the pensions of

1644
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:10,799
Speaker 2: huge numbers of people in the UK. Like, if anyone

1645
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:13,600
Speaker 2: wanted to kill him, it's a bunch of them. Yeah,

1646
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:15,080
Speaker 2: and he was about to fuck up a lot of

1647
01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:18,559
Speaker 2: US publishing. But like, yeah, it's just one of those

1648
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 2: things where there are three different coroner reports and they

1649
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:23,680
Speaker 2: don't agree, and so that'll often get like and none

1650
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:25,840
Speaker 2: of the coroners could agree. But what the coroners can't

1651
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:28,880
Speaker 2: agree on is did he have a heart attack or

1652
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:31,640
Speaker 2: did he jump in? And both are he's sixty, he

1653
01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 2: was in bad health. It's also it's perfectly possible either

1654
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:37,000
Speaker 2: he knew that he was fucked and he wanted to

1655
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 2: die right or that he had a heart attack because

1656
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:42,840
Speaker 2: he was super stressed out in sixty eight and not

1657
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:44,920
Speaker 2: in good health, and he fell off his boat.

1658
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:45,679
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1659
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:47,559
Speaker 2: Both of those are just likelier to me than like

1660
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 2: the Masade poisoned him with an untraceable poison on his boat,

1661
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 2: so it looked like he fell over. Why Like again,

1662
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 2: he's being hounded by all of the governments. He knows

1663
01:24:57,360 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 2: he's heading to prison. Maybe he kills himself. Maybe he

1664
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:02,679
Speaker 2: has a heart attack. I don't really have trouble bleeding either.

1665
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:07,280
Speaker 2: He is initially mourned as like this great figure because

1666
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:09,240
Speaker 2: all of this hasn't come out yet. But a few

1667
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:12,400
Speaker 2: weeks after his death, everything I've told you is published.

1668
01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:15,160
Speaker 2: That he stole four hundred million pounds from pension funds,

1669
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 2: that he there were seven hundred and sixty three million

1670
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:21,400
Speaker 2: British pounds missing from his companies. He has described as

1671
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 2: the crook of the century by Newsweek magazine.

1672
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:26,760
Speaker 3: Wow and not up.

1673
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe he's one of them.

1674
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:32,960
Speaker 3: Like things finally caught up with old Bobby Maxwell, murdering

1675
01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:37,719
Speaker 3: the shared people, no share, destroying scientific publishing. Nah, he's fine,

1676
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:42,400
Speaker 3: but stealing pension funds that'll get you, which does suck?

1677
01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:45,799
Speaker 2: Like that is really bad? Yeah, one of his worst things.

1678
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely no, that made me up until up

1679
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 3: until now he was sort of like debonair and air dwell,

1680
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, I was.

1681
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 4: I was enjoying the story. Now I'm now I'm pissed off.

1682
01:25:56,360 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 2: Now I'm pissed off.

1683
01:25:57,240 --> 01:25:57,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1684
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:00,599
Speaker 2: And so his sons, who are declared innocent of any

1685
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:03,479
Speaker 2: involvement in the conspiracy, maybe they were a part of it,

1686
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 2: but I don't have trouble believing that he just didn't

1687
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:08,080
Speaker 2: respect his kids enough to tell them what he was doing. Right, Yeah,

1688
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 2: of course they have to take over, and they're left

1689
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:13,519
Speaker 2: with like four hundred million pounds or so. They've got

1690
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:16,360
Speaker 2: to like figure out how to put together. His assets

1691
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:19,519
Speaker 2: are sold off, most of like the the what are

1692
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:21,679
Speaker 2: called the Maxwell pensioners, right, and these are the people

1693
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:24,400
Speaker 2: who lost their retirement savings, get half or less of

1694
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 2: what they were owed, you know, as a result of

1695
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:30,000
Speaker 2: kind of this liquidation process. But Gillan stays comfortable for

1696
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 2: a while, you know, a while.

1697
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't think. I didn't think I could end

1698
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:42,680
Speaker 3: with a lower opinion of Gillan Maxwell. I didn't anticipate

1699
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:43,040
Speaker 3: that this.

1700
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:45,160
Speaker 2: Is yeah shocking, right.

1701
01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:48,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh, she's also a criminal nipple baby.

1702
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:52,200
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I also didn't really call her

1703
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:55,120
Speaker 2: dad being so cool up until age twenty three, because

1704
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:57,240
Speaker 2: he's really knocking it out of the park up until.

1705
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:58,200
Speaker 3: Age twenty three.

1706
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:02,600
Speaker 2: Great first act, like yeah, yeah, it's like one of

1707
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:05,400
Speaker 2: those movies that like really falls apart in the second half,

1708
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:09,000
Speaker 2: like he could have used more editing. I was really

1709
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:09,559
Speaker 2: on board.

1710
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's funny how much attracts sort of the

1711
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 3: standard you know, the it's a citizen Kane or a

1712
01:27:17,280 --> 01:27:19,800
Speaker 3: uh yeah, what's his face? From Succession style story where

1713
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 3: it's like inspiring in the beginning, all turns wrong, you know,

1714
01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:26,559
Speaker 3: larger than life, all these insane details. He's present at

1715
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,759
Speaker 3: every moment in history, like the sort of figure who

1716
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:31,760
Speaker 3: you know, if I read a novel about this guy,

1717
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 3: I wouldn't believe it, you know.

1718
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:35,960
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, yeah, it is like and again

1719
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 2: he did lie about a lot of it unnecessarily. Yeah.

1720
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:46,000
Speaker 2: So uh that's uh, that's that's where we are, you know,

1721
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,639
Speaker 2: that's that's this guy's life. Thanks for sitting and learning

1722
01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 2: about it.

1723
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 3: Incredible, he's what a what a bastard? I'm now behind.

1724
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:56,240
Speaker 2: Him, Yeah, yeah, we're now behind him. Well, got any

1725
01:27:56,240 --> 01:27:58,439
Speaker 2: pluggables to plug. We've kept you here long enough.

1726
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:03,120
Speaker 3: I do I uh once again in my podcast is

1727
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:07,439
Speaker 3: called factually I do uh do that on YouTube or

1728
01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:11,840
Speaker 3: ELSEO do video monologues and uh yeah, you can check

1729
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:14,519
Speaker 3: out my stand up special Unmedicated on dropout right now.

1730
01:28:15,240 --> 01:28:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Awesome, Uh well, awesome check out that. Check out

1731
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 2: drop out. And you know, if you're going to machine

1732
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 2: gun the SS, don't go on to destroy scientific publishing

1733
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 2: and then hundreds of millions of dollars in pension funds.

1734
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 2: That's my advice to our listeners.

1735
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:34,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and don't tell people you did it so proudly.

1736
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 3: Don't be like I committed a war crime.

1737
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe don't destroy your whole life. Competing with Rupert

1738
01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 2: Murdoch and being a dick is such a weird way

1739
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:49,000
Speaker 2: to blow your life up. Oh, man, so funny.

1740
01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:52,200
Speaker 3: Competing in an asshole contest with Rupert Murdoch not a

1741
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:52,720
Speaker 3: way to.

1742
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:57,559
Speaker 2: Go and not even being noticed. Man was like, it is.

1743
01:28:57,680 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 2: I I don't want to ever give it to Rupert,

1744
01:28:59,520 --> 01:29:01,640
Speaker 2: But there's some Some of the great hater moments are

1745
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:06,800
Speaker 2: just Rupert being like, care we talking about all right?

1746
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 2: Well that's the episode everybody good night and good luck.

1747
01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:11,920
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome.

1748
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:14,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, Adam really appreciate you. Can't wait to get

1749
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:19,720
Speaker 2: these episodes out and we're done, goodbye.

1750
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:23,599
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1751
01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1752
01:29:27,439 --> 01:29:30,639
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1753
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1754
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:34,719
Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards is now.

1755
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:39,439
Speaker 1: Available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe

1756
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:42,800
Speaker 1: to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind the

1757
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:43,400
Speaker 1: Bastards