Speaker 1: Michelle Can came the United States to get her education.
Speaker 1: She's a native of South Korea. After she got her
Speaker 1: education in the United States, she stayed here and became
Speaker 1: very actively involved in the business world. Built a successful company,
Speaker 1: sold it, and now she's very involved in women's sports,
Speaker 1: and particularly women's soccer. I sat down with her to
Speaker 1: talk about why she's so interested in revolutionized women's sports
Speaker 1: and women's soccer. So let me ask you about how
Speaker 1: you came to become a leading women's soccer team owner,
Speaker 1: having had no experience as a soccer team player and
Speaker 1: not having spent a lot of time in athletics before
Speaker 1: you got into this.
Speaker 2: Well, I was a good athlete, but not soccer. I
Speaker 2: have to say it was by accident coincidence. I really
Speaker 2: did not even know there was a professional women's soccer
Speaker 2: league in the United States, let alone there was a
Speaker 2: professional team in DC. And it was twenty nineteen when
Speaker 2: the US women's national team won the World Cup, sort
Speaker 2: of a celebration party on the Capitol and I was
Speaker 2: invited and I got to learn about it, and since
Speaker 2: then I was sort of convinced that I should join.
Speaker 2: Initially as just a minority investor, and be a mentor
Speaker 2: to a lot of young, incredible women. And when I started,
Speaker 2: I never had an intention that I was going to
Speaker 2: go run multi teams around the globe.
Speaker 1: How many women's sports teams have sprouted up in recent years,
Speaker 1: but are they profitable?
Speaker 3: Not yet?
Speaker 4: And you think they will be out presumably.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, But I mean, I'd say to be fair, if
Speaker 2: you look at a lot of men's teams, if you
Speaker 2: actually take their media deals, there aren't that many companies
Speaker 2: that are profitable from just game day operations. So we
Speaker 2: as an emerging league, our media deal is not as
Speaker 2: big as some of this more mature league. So we're
Speaker 2: getting there because we're building teams, we're building attendance. But
Speaker 2: even game day operations were on our way at least
Speaker 2: break given in a couple of years.
Speaker 1: So in an average women's soccer team game, let's say
Speaker 1: how many fans will.
Speaker 2: Show up, so that we play at a stadium called
Speaker 2: Audi Stadium, the sellout is nineteen two hundred and fifteen.
Speaker 2: Last two games, which were quarterfinal and semi final of
Speaker 2: the playoffs, we sold out and then exceeded this sellout
Speaker 2: because we had standing room only.
Speaker 4: How many women are on the.
Speaker 3: Team twenty five or twenty six.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they come largely from America.
Speaker 2: It used to be because in the US especially, we
Speaker 2: had a draft system. So the typical path would be
Speaker 2: you play high school, local academy or clubs, and then
Speaker 2: you go to college and scholarships hopefully, and then you
Speaker 2: get drafted from the college system. But now it's booming everywhere.
Speaker 2: Clearly in Europe it's pretty significant, so there are a
Speaker 2: lot more player movements, so we now have pretty significant
Speaker 2: international players. But every team is limited to seven international players.
Speaker 1: So I know from owning a sports team that only
Speaker 1: one team takes a lot of energy and time.
Speaker 3: Tell me about it.
Speaker 1: So you decided after you bought the Washington Spirits to
Speaker 1: buy some other soccer teams, So you bought stakes in
Speaker 1: a team in England?
Speaker 4: Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yes, I bought a team called London City Linuses, and
Speaker 2: that is the only one of the two teams in
Speaker 2: the entire potentially Great Britain that are independent. Ninety nine
Speaker 2: percent of the teams in Europe are part of the
Speaker 2: men's team, but this is one of the only two
Speaker 2: teams that was independent.
Speaker 1: So now you have two soccer teams, one in England
Speaker 1: and one of the United States. So I would think
Speaker 1: for most people that might be enough, but you decide
Speaker 1: to buy a team in France as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, Olympic Leode Feminine is actually the best women's team
Speaker 2: in the history of women's football in terms of how
Speaker 2: many trophies the team has won. They are the eight
Speaker 2: times champions of the European Pan European League and I
Speaker 2: can't even count how many times they won the French
Speaker 2: domestic lea the most successful team.
Speaker 1: Hey, so now you have this team, the French team,
Speaker 1: the English team, you have the American team, and then
Speaker 1: you now have minority stakes in male soccer teams as well.
Speaker 4: Yes, and which ones do you have?
Speaker 2: So Crystal Palace in England and olympicly on a men's
Speaker 2: team as well.
Speaker 4: Okay, so now you have five.
Speaker 3: It's a passive and that one is passive.
Speaker 4: You have three that you control.
Speaker 3: Correct and actively managed.
Speaker 4: Actively managed.
Speaker 1: As if that wasn't enough, you want to get into
Speaker 1: the sportswear and shoe part of soccer as well.
Speaker 2: There are reasons why women's football or women's sports have
Speaker 2: been somewhat behind than men's sports. There are a lot
Speaker 2: of key elements that would make any sports successful were
Speaker 2: not present. So, for example, if you look at women's
Speaker 2: teams as team sports, their training manuals are borrowed from
Speaker 2: men's training manuals. There's no independent training manuals designed and
Speaker 2: develop for women. While women's body is not the same
Speaker 2: as men, hormone, nutritions, sleep, they all work differently, and
Speaker 2: women are seven eight times more likely to get an
Speaker 2: ACL injury than men. But we train exactly the same
Speaker 2: way we train men. So there has to be investment
Speaker 2: in understanding female body and especially with the hormone the period,
Speaker 2: how do they impact female athlete performance. Ninety four percent
Speaker 2: of all science and medical research on athlete performance is
Speaker 2: dedicated to men and the other six percent is not
Speaker 2: dedicated to women. It includes women, So there's just absolute
Speaker 2: lack of investment. So that has to be done. Now,
Speaker 2: I am crazy and ambitious, but I can't invest if
Speaker 2: I have only one team. You talk about profitability and
Speaker 2: the size of the revenue, You cannot afford that level
Speaker 2: of investment, which is absolutely necessary. You can't do it
Speaker 2: if you own just one team, But if you have
Speaker 2: multi teams, then you can centralize the resources and do
Speaker 2: it once and make it available to everyone. If you
Speaker 2: think about global scouting capabilities, each team doesn't have to
Speaker 2: build global scouting everywhere. You just go watch one game
Speaker 2: and you don't need to send five people to watch
Speaker 2: the same thing. So there are some things that you
Speaker 2: can build centrally that you can actually put the necessary
Speaker 2: level of scale investment. You can't just buy teams and
Speaker 2: invest in teams, build training center and stadiums and you
Speaker 2: think that actually that's going to advance the women's football.
Speaker 2: For example, the cleats, the boots, so they basically take
Speaker 2: men's shoes, men's boots and then make it a little
Speaker 2: narrow and little shorter and pink it. Well, apparently, I'm
Speaker 2: told I'm not a scientist. The weight distribution when women
Speaker 2: run is very different than men. The arches, our arches
Speaker 2: are a little different than the men. So the shoes
Speaker 2: the boots are one of the contributing factors for female injury.
Speaker 2: So you need to invest in that. We don't get
Speaker 2: enough media attention right women's sports. There is a media
Speaker 2: company that's specializes that covers only women's sports. So I'm
Speaker 2: investing in those things because the entire ecosystem has to
Speaker 2: move together, not just the teams.
Speaker 1: Is anybody from career call up and said, we have
Speaker 1: some female soccer teams here and we'd like you to
Speaker 1: buy one.
Speaker 4: Nothing yet, nothing yet.
Speaker 1: But your ultimate plan with respect to what you're doing
Speaker 1: in sports is to either buy more teams or to
Speaker 1: just grow the value of the teams.
Speaker 4: What is your openmate game plan?
Speaker 3: Yes, I do.
Speaker 2: I mean I think there's sort of a multi step.
Speaker 2: I want to professionalize women's sports, right. I don't want
Speaker 2: people to think that some of my women's sports is
Speaker 2: a charity or a corporate DEI project this is a
Speaker 2: legitimate entertainment product and it is a business that is
Speaker 2: going to be profitable, break even profitable and enterprise values
Speaker 2: and so forth. So I want people to take the
Speaker 2: women's sports seriously. So I'm on a mission to prove
Speaker 2: that women's sports is a good business, right, and that
Speaker 2: comes from professionalizing it and investing in it.
Speaker 1: I want to get to the story of how you
Speaker 1: be able to afford doing this. So it's a very
Speaker 1: interesting story, but I think the best way to tell
Speaker 1: it is to tell from the beginning. So you were
Speaker 1: born where South Korea, and you were raised in what city, Soul,
Speaker 1: and your parents were.
Speaker 2: My father was a professor. My mom was an elementary
Speaker 2: school teacher turned politician. Later, my father was educated in
Speaker 2: the United States. He got his graduate degree, so he
Speaker 2: had relatively open minded about gender issues. Korea, clearly at
Speaker 2: that time, was a very traditional society where girls were
Speaker 2: supposed to do certain things, study certain things, and when
Speaker 2: you graduate from college, then you get married and you
Speaker 2: have children and all that. So there's sort of a norm,
Speaker 2: the social norm that you're supposed to follow. But my father,
Speaker 2: who had three girls, had a little different ideas because
Speaker 2: he was exposed college in Japan and graduate school in
Speaker 2: the US that girls can do whatever they want to
Speaker 2: do in the future. And he instilled that idea in
Speaker 2: US and I don't think my sisters really took up
Speaker 2: that idea, but it just had a lot of impact
Speaker 2: on me.
Speaker 1: And then you had an opportunity to go to college
Speaker 1: in the United States. And in those days, as I
Speaker 1: understand it, Korean families saved up money so their daughters
Speaker 1: could have money to get married. And so your parents
Speaker 1: were saving up money for you to get married, and
Speaker 1: then you said, I want to go to the school
Speaker 1: in the United States.
Speaker 4: And what happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, especially at that time, unmarried young women going
Speaker 2: to America alone was just unheard of and not acceptable, right,
Speaker 2: No parents in the right mind would send an unmarried
Speaker 2: young woman to a foreign country. So I had to negotiate.
Speaker 2: So at that time, Korea was going through a lot
Speaker 2: of political turmoil, sort of a democracy movement driven by
Speaker 2: a lot of college students in college cam so the
Speaker 2: colleges were shut down. So I kind of said, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I want to go study, but the schools
Speaker 2: are shut down. I can't study. And if you don't
Speaker 2: let me go, then I may participate in these demonstrations
Speaker 2: and my career, my future could be ruined.
Speaker 3: Who knows.
Speaker 2: And I kind of use a little bit of a
Speaker 2: threat but also a little bit of a negotiation, And
Speaker 2: I said, give me just for one year's worth of
Speaker 2: the tuition and living expenses, and after that I'll figure
Speaker 2: it out, and when I start making money, I'll pay
Speaker 2: back every penny. And when I get married, you don't
Speaker 2: have to spend the time. I'll figure it out and
Speaker 2: I pay everything back and some more.
Speaker 4: So they agreed to it.
Speaker 1: Now, you went to the University of Chicago, But how
Speaker 1: did you happen to pick the universe of Chicago as
Speaker 1: opposed to many other universities.
Speaker 2: Well at that time, actually I was studying economics in Korea,
Speaker 2: and which was also kind of unheard of for girls
Speaker 2: to study economics.
Speaker 3: I said, I have to go there.
Speaker 2: I have to learn economics where the real economics is taught.
Speaker 2: So that was why I picked Eros of Chicago.
Speaker 1: And So was it a culture shock for you to
Speaker 1: kind of deal with all these Americans in Chicago?
Speaker 4: Or it wasn't a big problem.
Speaker 2: It was really not a big problem. I mean, I
Speaker 2: just really enjoyed it being on my own. My parents
Speaker 2: were not really rich or famous, but still the environment
Speaker 2: or the circle that I grew up, I was always
Speaker 2: so and so's daughter, so and so's granddaughter, so and
Speaker 2: so's sister. I absolutely hated that I wanted to go
Speaker 2: where no one knew who I was. So it was
Speaker 2: like free at last, and I just enjoyed every minute
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: When you graduated from you in Chicago, you decided to
Speaker 1: go to business school and you picked the Yale School
Speaker 1: of Management. Why did you pick that school of Management?
Speaker 1: Which a very good one?
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: At that time, Yale actually was about ten years old,
Speaker 2: and their mission and vision was not to create another
Speaker 2: Harvard Business School, but rather very different, unique educational institution,
Speaker 2: and that was mix both public and private management. And
Speaker 2: the best part to me was it was a very
Speaker 2: small class, about one hundred seventy or so at that time,
Speaker 2: if I'm not mistake in Harvard had about eight hundred students,
Speaker 2: and of course it was drawing upon the incredible faculty
Speaker 2: members of Yale University, and I just really thought that
Speaker 2: that was the best program for me.
Speaker 1: All Right, so you graduate from Yale School of Management,
Speaker 1: what do you decide to do next?
Speaker 2: At that time, actually I had a three ten year
Speaker 2: plan for my future career. First ten years I was
Speaker 2: going to go into consulting, strategy consulting, because that's the
Speaker 2: fastest way to learn every aspect of business. So I
Speaker 2: thought the strategy consulting was the fastest way. But the
Speaker 2: second half was going to be if you want to
Speaker 2: be a leader and CEO of any organization like Fortune
Speaker 2: five hundred company, it's not about whether you can build
Speaker 2: the most sophisticated Excel spreadsheet and pricing strategy, but rather
Speaker 2: how do you manage and how do you lead organizations?
Speaker 2: Especially how do you move people sideways to get them
Speaker 2: to do what you want them to do, people who
Speaker 2: work for you, people who you work for, and that
Speaker 2: you can do only in a fortune five hundred environment.
Speaker 3: And I didn't really like it.
Speaker 2: So I decided to spend the next decade in a
Speaker 2: fortune five hundred company focusing on organizational kind of leadership.
Speaker 2: And then the third decade was I was going to
Speaker 2: take a shot at becoming a CEO of a fortune
Speaker 2: five hundred company.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's fairly ambitious schedule. So the first part you
Speaker 1: want to do, go into consulting, im But so you
Speaker 1: do that? How many years with Arthur D.
Speaker 4: Little?
Speaker 2: I did probably outn't know, four or five years or
Speaker 2: maybe six years.
Speaker 4: And then you went to ernstign Young correct in the
Speaker 4: consulting side. Yes, okay, so you did that for a while.
Speaker 1: And then you left ernstign Youong and you joined North
Speaker 1: of Brummin, which to the average person is a defense company.
Speaker 4: Were you in the Washington RAFA? Yes, you moved to
Speaker 4: Washington area and you.
Speaker 1: Were involved in their healthcare business or their technology business.
Speaker 2: So I joined as a strategy officer. But then I
Speaker 2: really wanted to go run something. My goal was to
Speaker 2: learn how to build an organization. How you build leadership.
Speaker 2: So I asked to give me a P and L organization.
Speaker 2: So they gave me this health business, which they thought
Speaker 2: was so bad that I couldn't screw up right, So
Speaker 2: she asked for it. We're going to give it to her.
Speaker 2: If she doesn't do a good job, no harm done,
Speaker 2: because it's already too very bad anyway.
Speaker 3: And that's how I ended up careousness.
Speaker 1: In healthcare for Northrop Brummen. But at that time, what
Speaker 1: is your family saying back in career? Do they keep
Speaker 1: calling or saying, now you're going to come back?
Speaker 2: Well, then they kind of gave up on me, and
Speaker 2: they probably had no idea what I was doing. And
Speaker 2: you know, at that time, especially in Asia or you
Speaker 2: know even in the US at that time, women go
Speaker 2: into the business world or get an advanced degree. You're
Speaker 2: either a lawyer or accountant. I was none of those, right,
Speaker 2: So they kind of gave up understanding what I was doing.
Speaker 2: But somehow I wasn't doing too badly, so they're like, okay,
Speaker 2: she's okay.
Speaker 1: So at some point you decide I'm going to be
Speaker 1: my own boss and entrepreneur.
Speaker 2: It was hard, but it was easy at that time.
Speaker 2: President Bush forty three declared that every American who wants
Speaker 2: to have an electronic medical record will have one by
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen. So he put his stakes in the ground
Speaker 2: and start investing in all the doctors and hospitals implementing
Speaker 2: electronic medical records. So the boom was kind of happening,
Speaker 2: the IT investment, And when you're in the middle of that,
Speaker 2: you get that bug and you can see like how
Speaker 2: the dots could be connected.
Speaker 1: Whenever you start a company, you have to get some
Speaker 1: capital to pay people and so forth.
Speaker 4: So where did your capital come from?
Speaker 2: So I certainly had offers, But you know, I've been
Speaker 2: saying this to a lot of people as well, that
Speaker 2: I did not take any external capital.
Speaker 3: I literally bootstrapped.
Speaker 2: I think if I took external capital, if I were them,
Speaker 2: I would not have let me take the kind of
Speaker 2: risks that I took. So I knew that, so I
Speaker 2: didn't want to do that to them.
Speaker 1: The name of the company was what cogni sante What
Speaker 1: does that mean?
Speaker 2: So that means that you know something about health healthcare.
Speaker 2: Sante means health in French.
Speaker 1: So you were doing consulting and effect or helping companies
Speaker 1: in the healthcare world.
Speaker 2: Ultimately it reduced the costs and improve the care and
Speaker 2: so for But using technology, every doctor you visit, if
Speaker 2: you want to get a second opinion, you have to
Speaker 2: go get your MRIs and X rays all over again
Speaker 2: for various reasons because it's different hospital systems, insurance purposes
Speaker 2: and all that. But if you can have actually interoperable
Speaker 2: IT system where all is, whether it's a picture or
Speaker 2: doctor's notes, could be shared in real time or elect
Speaker 2: electronic form, you don't have to take another MRI. So
Speaker 2: it's a really efficient flow electronic flow of medical records, pictures.
Speaker 3: Prescriptions and so and all that. So interroperability.
Speaker 4: What year did you start your company?
Speaker 2: Technically two thousand and eight, right before the market crashed.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, two thousand and eight, and then you sold
Speaker 1: it last year twenty twenty four two accenture, I think
Speaker 1: it was, Yes, So you sold it, walked away, started
Speaker 1: a company called Kanishka.
Speaker 4: Can you tell us what that does?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So that's the globally first multi club organization that includes
Speaker 2: only women's soccer team or football teams. There are a
Speaker 2: lot of examples on the men's side, City Football Group,
Speaker 2: Red Bull, Redbird, all that, but This is the first
Speaker 2: on women's side, and as we've been talking about, I
Speaker 2: own on multiple teams and I wanted to kind of
Speaker 2: create that synergy and economist of scale and scope.
Speaker 3: So it's the.
Speaker 2: First in the world. And it's named after a Spartan
Speaker 2: princess who lived in BC three hundred plus years. She
Speaker 2: was a princess very much into horseback riding and she
Speaker 2: wanted to compete in the Olympics and the chariot racing
Speaker 2: was an Olympic game, but women were not allowed to compete.
Speaker 2: Instead of complaining, she found out a loophole which was
Speaker 2: at that time chariot racing. The medals were awarded not
Speaker 2: to the racers but to the owners of the horses,
Speaker 2: and she went out and hired a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: male chariot racers and had them compete and she went
Speaker 2: to gold medals.
Speaker 1: So do you get as much pleasure out of what
Speaker 1: you're doing in soccer as you did in building your company.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's probably a little different, But yes,
Speaker 2: I'm enjoying it. Although I have to say every weekend
Speaker 2: I have to watch just about even the seasons are
Speaker 2: not quite the same, and they're not quite aligned. But
Speaker 2: every weekend when all three teams watch, I don't think
Speaker 2: I'm going to live up my natural lifespan because every
Speaker 2: weekend I have to watch three games.
Speaker 3: It's just like nail biting.
Speaker 1: So you've been a bit of a leader in being
Speaker 1: an external investor in a women's soccer team, and let's
Speaker 1: say France and in England, do you think other women
Speaker 1: and or men are going to start investing external investors
Speaker 1: into these kind of teams.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So when I first arrived in England and France, everyone
Speaker 2: felt very badly for me, and they thought I was
Speaker 2: going to fail miserably. How can you do this when
Speaker 2: you don't have sort of the brand equity to leverage
Speaker 2: from men's team or in communities like Leone and so forth.
Speaker 2: But now I can tell you that some of these
Speaker 2: Premier League teams and some of the top division teams,
Speaker 2: they're not necessarily spinning off the team like what I've
Speaker 2: done in Leone, we totally spun off the women's team
Speaker 2: from men's team. But now some of the teams are
Speaker 2: spinning up women's teams inside their mothership and they're actually
Speaker 2: a recruiting investor separately. So Chelsea is another sample, They
Speaker 2: actually separated women's team and they have separate investor group.
Speaker 2: Some of the teams are now following.
Speaker 1: So when you go to the games in Washington or
Speaker 1: Paris or London, are you fans coming up to you
Speaker 1: for photos?
Speaker 4: Selfies?
Speaker 1: For those people that are not very knowledgeab about sports,
Speaker 1: why is it more exciting to watch a women's soccer
Speaker 1: game than a men's soccer game?
Speaker 2: Well, I think you could argue it's a preference, But
Speaker 2: I think women's game, I think people will tell you
Speaker 2: they're very different. One could argue there's a lot more
Speaker 2: actually technical, in my opinion, sophistication as opposed to pure
Speaker 2: physical strength. And also the environment in which you play
Speaker 2: men versus women, especially if you've been to a game
Speaker 2: in Europe, there's just clear contrast between the men's game
Speaker 2: and women's game.
Speaker 1: So right now, as you look at your professional life,
Speaker 1: it's buying sports teams, a lot of them women, and
Speaker 1: helping with equipment other things. And do you expect about
Speaker 1: being buying media related things or other kinds of things
Speaker 1: that ancillary to the sports.
Speaker 2: As I said, I bought the cleats, the boots female
Speaker 2: that designed specifically for female media company covering only media
Speaker 2: company right now, I'm working on actually data, so all
Speaker 2: the tools for the coaches and the technical staff and
Speaker 2: all that, so using it of course AI, but so data,
Speaker 2: which is also my background. So I'm investing in some
Speaker 2: of those type of things. But ecosystem has to go
Speaker 2: go in together, so I'm investing in that as well.
Speaker 1: Now people come to me all the time now and say,
Speaker 1: if you bought a sports team, maybe you'll buy this
Speaker 1: team or that team. And I get a lot of
Speaker 1: offers in the women's sports area, So should I invest
Speaker 1: in volleyball, softball, ice hockey? Any views on those as
Speaker 1: women's sports.
Speaker 2: My recommendation to everyone is don't wait until it looks
Speaker 2: like it's going to take off, because it's too late, right,
Speaker 2: So you need to go in. You need to have
Speaker 2: in something that you believe in when no one else
Speaker 2: is believing in it, and that's the time to go
Speaker 2: in as oppose when everyone else is this is the
Speaker 2: greatest thing since slice.
Speaker 1: Spread And would you encourage other women to get involved
Speaker 1: in women's sports as owners?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that's one of the things that
Speaker 2: I'm hoping to achieve while I'm investing that. If you
Speaker 2: look at actually the even women's sports right now, especially
Speaker 2: in the US, quite a few women have come in.
Speaker 1: So any more plans anything else you want to do
Speaker 1: with your professional career? At this point, You've got sports teams,
Speaker 1: you've built a great successful company, You're involved in philanthropy.
Speaker 2: I think I've got my hands full, and so I
Speaker 2: still this is all work in progress, right, So I
Speaker 2: want to make sure that this is a legitimate, real
Speaker 2: business that's not charity. That means that there's going to
Speaker 2: be significant revenue stream and the break even and all that.
Speaker 2: A business discipline. So I'm in that process. Also investing
Speaker 2: in women's health and women's performance all that, so all
Speaker 2: the different aspects, and I really I'm doing that also
Speaker 2: because there are just so many female successful people with
Speaker 2: lots of money and resources. I want them to all join.
Speaker 1: Tell me, are you ever tempted to go try to
Speaker 1: start another company like Cognisante?
Speaker 4: No, you're done with that.
Speaker 3: I'm done, okay, I don't look back, I look forward.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen.