WEBVTT - Invertebrate Emotions, Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to stuct to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:14.520 Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.160 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:21.079 we're back with part two of our exploration of invertebrate emotions. 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.400 In the last episode, we talked about the paper Nautilus 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.680 or the argonaut. We read that great Marion More poem. 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.319 We talked about what emotions are, the difficulties and studying them, 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.800 and we talked about anecdotes about people really seeing personality, 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:39.400 character and emotion in octopuses, but then also scientific studies 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:44.280 looking for certain types of measurable cognitive effects of emotions 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.480 or emotion like states in invertebrates like bees. We talked 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.199 about the judgment bias test and how bees might have 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.240 biases that come about in optimistic or pessimistic ways based 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.800 on how they're quote feeling. Yeah, A big part of 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.200 the conversation last episode was I think, ultimately about stripping 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.919 down emotion to something that doesn't depend upon the subjective 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.760 human experience, and in doing so, something that I don't 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:13.039 want to make it sound like we're, oh, we're just 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:15.080 we're cutting out all the important stuff. I think a 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.520 lot of what we're cutting out is the poetic stuff, 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.440 the the the the extra like self contemplation stuff, and 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.319 getting down to the root of what is an emotional state, 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.680 How does it affect um our behavior and our expectations, 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:30.839 And then you know, how do we see that echoed 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.160 in other organisms? Right? Well, we're cutting out yeah this 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:35.760 by cutting out the subjective element. We're cutting out the 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.640 part that would be impossible to study in other animals 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.559 and just trying to say what our emotional states as 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.960 manifested externally. Yeah, But then of course the difficulty, as 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.760 we discussed, is by taking out the subjective aspect of it, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.080 we're taking out the part that is closest to us 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.720 and the thing that you instantly think about when we 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:57.720 even say the word emotion of sweet emotion. Oh no, 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.520 that song fills me with bad emotion, did you. Oh? 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:03.000 I don't know if I ever gotten to do this 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.680 rant before. Y'all know I hate Aerosmith. Oh no, I know, well, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.800 I think you may have mentioned it once in passing. Yeah, 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.200 even even the early stuff. I don't know. I mean, 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:14.160 I can be that classic rock radio uncle, like you 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:16.520 know when led Zeppelin comes on, I'm like, yeah, I 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.639 feel it, but I don't know that. Something about Aerosmith 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.959 just turns my head three sixty degrees. Well, I have 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.040 to admit it. Really like in dream On that's that's 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.560 if I hear that one on classic rock radio, I'll 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:32.840 tune in and listen. Well, I'm glad you like it. Hey, folks, 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.040 this is Joe from the Future swooping in to alter 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.639 the past. Sorry about the audio, but I realized on 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.560 listening back to this episode that in our excitement about 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.120 the topic, we forgot to reintroduce the paper that we 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.360 were talking about in the first episode, and then we're 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.760 gonna be talking about throughout this one as well. So 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.919 that paper was by Clint J. Perry and Luigi Bachi, 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.680 a Donna, and it's called Studying Emotion and Invertebrates What 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.679 has been done, what can be measured, and what they 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.800 can provide. It was published in the Journal of Experimental 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:09.840 Biology in Okay, now back to our original conversation. Okay, 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.280 but uh so, the last time we we talked about 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.960 one of the main three branches of external ways of 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.040 studying emotions and animals. We talked about you know that 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.440 they're there are perhaps cognitive effects of emotions, that emotions 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.720 affect how you perceive the world and how you think. 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.799 That there are behavioral tests of emotions, that emotions affect 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.640 how you act, and that there are physiological tests of 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:35.280 emotions that emotions affect involuntary physical reactions in the body. 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:37.680 And we last time we looked at cognition. This time 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.000 we're gonna look at the other two. So the first 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:45.040 would be behavioral tests behavioral signs of emotional states. And 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.000 one of the things that I think we should first 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.040 acknowledge is that I'd say this is the primary way 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.160 that we sense emotions in other people. What do people 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.640 usually do with their bodies, especially their faces, when they're 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:01.760 feeling various emotions. But as the authors point out quite helpfully, 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.000 they say, quote, invertebrates lack the facial musculature for any 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.760 real type of comparisons to be made in this regard. 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.560 So I think that the jury is in. You can't 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.200 tell if a hornet is smiling. You can't tell if 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.839 there is disgusted on the face of that crab. Yeah, 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:22.280 I mean, as if a crab had a face anyway. Right, Um, 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.640 but my flogging that horse again, it's not really a 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.320 horse I flog, but no, no, no, actually you're right. 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:31.159 I think i'd degree the crab. I don't know crabs 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.920 pushing it. I don't know if a crab has a face. Yeah, 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.880 I mean it definitely has the front of a head. 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.040 But that front of a head with the crab is 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.080 not really it's not used for communication. Crabs depend on 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.960 sound as well as you know. The claw waving and 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:50.200 overall movement displays general body language, but predominantly sound is 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.480 their their form of communication. The wasp, for their part, uh, 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.920 they depend primarily on smell for a communication. We will 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:57.600 get into that a little bit in the last episode 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:01.520 with the beest. So their commune occasions since realm is 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.480 not really our own, um, they exist in a in 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.040 a different realm in that regard. Right, But the behavioral 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.760 effects of underlying emotional states are not limited to facial 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.400 expressions alone, just because that's maybe the main way we 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.599 see emotions in other people. Uh. The author's right quote. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.720 A substantial amount of work in mammals has utilized other 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.960 bodily expressions and motor behavior in response to stimuli to 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:30.560 assess both valence meaning the pleasantness, and intensity, meaning the 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.160 level of arousal of emotions, and I really think the 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:35.920 horse is a great example of this for a couple 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.120 of reasons. First of all, the horse is an animal 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.880 that is, that lives in close proximity to humans, that 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.120 is adored by humans. That is, that is often you 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.280 know championed as being this next to the dog and 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:49.840 you know the cat. I guess it is. It is 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.719 a friend of humanity. And uh, and my wife being 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.800 super into horses and pretty knowledgeable about them, she's just 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.440 told me about some of this before, but I was 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:01.280 I also looked up a source on this for this 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.600 episode How to Read Your Horses Body Language by Jennifer Williams, 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:09.880 PhD for Acquis Magazine, and Williams points out that if 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.120 a novice or to view a skilled horse trainer in action, 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.680 they might well guess that this individual is psychic or 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.200 has some sort of mystical Cormick McCarthy in connection to 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.719 the soul of the horse, you know, the deep, dark, 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.599 mystical soil soul of the horse. But it's really all 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.599 about knowing how to read these other signs, the overall 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.360 body language of the horse, and then these other sort 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.919 of non facial or semi facial cues. Well, yeah, I 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.320 mean think if you're a dog person, if you've got 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:40.880 a dog in your house, think about like, how finally 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:46.440 a tune you are to your dogs feelings, levels of excitement, motivations, 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.520 and and quote emotional states or you know, there's something 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.200 that is analogous to these emotional states. Uh that if 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.919 somebody who had never met a dog before or hadn't 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.560 spent much time around dogs saw you interacting with your dog, 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.800 they might well think the same thing. You must be psychic. Yeah, 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:03.600 but no, A lot of it is about picking up 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:05.840 on all of this language, or indeed just knowing what 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:07.960 to look for. So in in the case of the horse, 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.080 for instance, um ear position is very important. This is 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:12.880 one of the apparently the first things you tend to 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:17.000 learn about about understanding a horse's emotional state. So that 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.160 the ears may face forward, meaning they're interested. They may 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.400 be pinned back, meaning they're angry and they're prone to 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.280 bite or act you know, aggressively slashed defensively. Uh. They 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.600 might be turned out to the side meaning they're relaxed. 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.360 They might be turned back but not pinned, and this 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.160 means they're listening to something behind them and it also 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.480 means they might decide they need to turn around to 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.160 go look at it, and horses, being large animals, that's 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.400 something to be aware of. Uh. And then they also 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.840 might be rapidly swiveling, meaning that they're anxious or at 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.360 their you know, at a high level of alertness. But 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.000 then on top of that there's also head carriage, head 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:55.040 maybe lowered, elevated snaking. You have to consider four leg 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:59.320 and hind leg movement and position, muzzle activity, which this 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.040 some of this it's more in line with what you 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:02.960 might expect from a face, you know, like what are 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.760 the nostrils doing? Uh? You know, what what's the mouth doing? 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.000 What are they doing with their teeth? That sort of thing. 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.040 There is a certain level of like what are their 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.560 eyes doing? Uh? You know, to someone that doesn't really 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:15.520 know anything about horses, it's easy to sort of think 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.000 of the eyes as being sort of like big empty 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.440 glasses without a lot of emotion. But there is stuff 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.680 you can read into it. There's the movement of the tail, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.760 and then there's just general whole body stuff like what 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.880 is the overall bodily tension of the animal, how is it? 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:32.800 How is it moving? And uh? And you can read 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.360 take all of that and read into the emotional state 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.240 of the horse. But if you just look at you 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.240 know what you might be tempted to call the face 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.240 of the horse, You're not necessarily going to pick up 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.240 on on all those cues you have. And I think 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.000 part of this two gets we have to think about 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:51.480 the human situation. So clearly humans have body language. You know, 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.680 there's more than just the facial communication array with human 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.240 beings totally, but we do depend on the facial communication 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.720 array a lot and do fixate on it to a 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.559 very large degree. But basically, what I'm trying to say, 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.880 using the horses in an example that there are there 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.720 are there are various parts of an organism that you 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:14.199 can look to to to figure out what their emotional 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.080 state is, and it may or may not be something 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.080 that matches up with the human idea idea of a face. Yes, 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.520 so what would be some of these external behaviors that 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.880 we could measure in invertebrates? One of the most obvious 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:34.120 behavioral signs of underlying emotional states and animals is retreat behaviors. 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.679 So but you know, like in fear or anxiety, animals 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:43.640 will retreat, retracting or covering vulnerable body parts, adopting defensive posture, 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.360 and running away. These are some of the clearest ones 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.160 to look for in all of animal behavior. And so 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.880 the first example cited by the authors here looks at 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.200 exactly that. And it's actually a study we've already mentioned 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.040 on this show before. It came up in our episodes 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:02.520 titled Devour of Memory. Remember that about about the planaria 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.439 and the and the research about whether you could gain 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.040 somebody's memories by eating their body. Uh So in this 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.280 episode that we mentioned to study about a type of 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:16.680 large sea slug called the California sea hair or Aplasia californica. 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:18.960 Uh And in that other episode the study came up 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:23.160 because it demonstrated associate of learning and classical conditioning in 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.600 an invertebrate sea slug. So, you offer a sea hair 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:32.160 some delicious shrimp extract, but in the test group, well, 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.320 the sea hair is munching on the shrimp extract, it 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.120 gets an electric shock to the head that this painful 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:42.040 stimulus results in not a frown, of course, but measurable 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.520 behaviors in the slug. It withdraws its head, it withdraws 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.719 its siphon, it inks, and it moves away from the 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.160 shrimp at extract, and sure enough if you train it 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.840 on these associations when simply when the animals from the 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:00.600 test group are simply presented with shrimp extract, they will 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.320 pull back the siphon and move away. By the way, 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.160 see hair and the electric shrimp extract would be a 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.040 great name for a band. Just to put that out there, 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:12.120 I think that was a Bob Weir side project. Okay um. 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.240 But whether or not it makes sense to use the 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.720 same word we use for emotions and other mammals quote 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:22.200 the observed behavioral responses to conditions stimuli resemble the actions 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.439 of conditioned fear in mammals. Subjectively, it might not make 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:28.400 sense to talk about fear in a sea slug. We 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.760 don't know, but it certainly behaviorally looks like fear. It 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.000 looks like the same thing we recognize this fear in 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.320 mammals or in other humans. Because of course, nothing about 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.000 the shrimp extract itself causes pain. It couldn't be a 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:44.280 simple stimulus response. It has to be this association with pain, 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.559 the memory of you know, the fear caused by the memory, 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.400 and a lot of invertebrate studies into emotions look for 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:55.080 signs of fear because fear is easier to study. Presumable 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:59.560 fear inducing stimuli are relatively easy to create, and behavioral 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.400 response says are relatively easy to detect. There's another example 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.440 that the author's site here, which is fear research into 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.040 Drosophila also known commonly as fruit flies or as vinegar 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.640 flies small fruit flies. Uh. This is an extremely common 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.040 organism for lab research. You'll find tons of studies modeling 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:22.280 other things in complex organisms as they appear in Drosophila. 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.800 So in T. Gibson at All studied fear and Drosophila 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.760 caused by the stimulus of an overhead shadow. They used 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:34.679 a rotating opaque paddle. I don't know if it was 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:36.920 a ping pong paddle that I kind of hope it was. 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.280 It was some kind of paddle that would be made 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.400 to rotate in a circle in in in a steady progression, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:47.520 repeat passages over a container of these these flies that 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.960 would be, say, eating a food source or something. And 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:55.400 the authors found that multiple repetitive exposures to this overhead 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:59.600 shadow caused the flies to fly around more, to hop more, 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.439 to freeze more, and to fly away from a food source, 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.320 and there was evidence in this study that the passing 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.840 shadow led to a generalized internal state. The more times 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:15.120 the shadow passed over, the more avoidance responses happened. So 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.760 it looks like within the flies, it wasn't just stimulus response. 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.120 The shadow passes, then you fly away. If you are 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:27.319 repeatedly subjected to this stress inducing stimulus, the flies appear 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.280 to enter a state where they're just They're just in 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.680 a semi permanent way agitated. They're flying around, they're they're 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.360 leaving the food source. It looks like they have the 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:42.080 internal state of being afraid, and the avoidance responses remained 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.960 remained more elevated even after the stimulus stopped. The shadow 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.920 would stop passing over, and for some time afterward, the 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.040 flies acted more agitated, more likely to fly away from 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.439 the food source than flies with less exposure to the shadow. 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.120 And this makes it seem as if the avoidance reactions 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.480 were not just the direct and get response to the shadow, 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.080 but also influenced by this internal state within the flies 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.400 nervous systems, which is similar to how fear works and 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.319 humans and other vertebrates. Something jumps out and scares you, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.120 you have an immediate response maybe you shriek, maybe you 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.960 pee a little, you know, maybe maybe you jump, But 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.560 then you also remain in a state you're on edge 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:25.200 for several minutes afterwards, showing these anxiety behaviors even when 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:29.440 the scary thing is gone or no longer represents a threat. Unfortunately, 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.160 this is a lot of how we live our lives actually, right, Like, 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.320 there's something that kind of like startles you, gets you 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.400 on edge, and maybe it's not even something that would 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.440 be a physical threat. Maybe it's just a conceptual threat. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.360 You know, you get an email or a tweet or 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.280 anything that kind of puts you on edge, and then 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.920 you just stay that way for a good long while. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.840 all day generally. Yeah, what happens when you reach for 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.480 your phone first thing in the morning, right, And I 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.520 think that that's an important thing. It calls to to 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.600 attention the difference between fear and anxiety. Year of course, 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.600 is a response to the perception of an immediate threat, 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.320 a clear and present danger, and it results mostly in 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.680 escape behaviors by animals. You're trying to, you know, defend 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:15.400 yourself and get away, Whereas anxiety is related to fear 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.000 but slightly different. Fear is a response to the clear 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:23.120 and present danger. Anxiety is a response to ambiguous, imagined, 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.880 or potential threats. When there's a threat that's not necessarily 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.640 right in front of you, but you imagine it might 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.400 be waiting nearby, it might be around the corner. It's 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:38.320 kind of lurking in the the the information sphere around you, 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.240 as opposed to being right there in front of you. Uh. 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.120 And of course, the bringing back to the human experience, 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.640 we have no shortage of fear is just sort of 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.760 rotating around us in the information sphere, and this state 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.560 of anxiety actually brings us to the crowd ads. I know, 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.640 we promised we'd we'd get there eventually. A k A crayfish, 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.560 a k A. Mudbugs. Did you call girl calling him bugs? No, 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.360 this is what I've just heard them called. Did you 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.280 catch them in the creek? No? I know I was 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.080 never around them growing up, but I have family that 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.280 lives in southern Mississippi, and you know they're they're all 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.360 about them, uh down there. In fact, I've been to 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:17.840 and this will this will be like an image to 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.520 come back to. As we discussed their possible emotional states, 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.240 I went to a Marty Gropp parade not the main 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.600 Marty graparade, but I like, you know, one leading up 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.280 to it in southern Mississippi, and there were like games 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.320 where live crawfish were were thrown by children, Like they 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.840 would throw crawfish back and forth at each other and 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.280 then occasionally fall onto the concrete and all and um. Yeah, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.280 at the time I thought it was weird and kind 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.680 of barbaric. So maybe I'll feel even more so as 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.520 we discussed their their their inter emotional states here, so 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.960 it gets turned inward as well. Though. Do you ever 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.800 play the game, I assume you didn't or see people 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.080 play the game where you just let a crawdad pinch, 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.280 you know, just like let it pinch your nose or 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.960 your finger or something. No, did you do this crowing up? Uh? No, 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.199 but I had friends who did. Where was this in Tennessee? 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.680 They were crawl crawdads just in the creeks. I guess 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.880 there were probably a different species, I'm not quite sure 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:11.960 than the one we're about to talk about, but yeah, 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.679 there were some kind of crayfish shaped organism living in 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.240 the creeks, freshwater creeks. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. My main 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.159 experience with them is just occasionally eating them as an 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.399 adult um. But that's about it. Never got to like 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.760 play with them as a child. But for anyone out 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:29.640 there who does doesn't it still doesn't know what we're 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.960 talking about. It's essentially a small crustacean like a fresh 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:37.040 a small fresh water generally lobster, right, tiny lobster. The 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.919 specific UH species that's going to come up in the 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:44.600 in the research we're getting to is Procamboris clarkey. And yes, 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.960 these are the crawl fish of the famed Louisiana crawfish boil. 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.240 So I don't know if they were if they were 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.879 boiled up with some zatarans and eating after the test. 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.359 I should also add that sometimes you'll see crayfish in 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.200 aquarium settings and it can be quite beautiful as well, 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.920 So you know, I don't think human and humans humanities 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:08.280 relationship with the crayfish is mostly uh, mostly something that 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.840 revolves around eating them, but sometimes you'll see them as pets. Now, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.080 to come back to the idea of anxiety, we were 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.399 talking about the difference between fear and anxiety. You know, 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.800 we're saying fear often results in escape behaviors. Anxiety is 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:25.920 often thought to result in conservative or defense behavior, for example, 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:30.480 to limit openness and to limit exploratory behavior. Animals in 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.959 an anxious state are more likely to seek out closed, familiar, 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.360 and protected in environments, whereas animals in a non anxious 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.719 state are more likely to explore unfamiliar and open environments. 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.240 And one type of experiment that has been used to 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.399 study anxiety and animals like rats and mice and now 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:52.119 in crayfish, is the elevated plus maze. So, Robert, had 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.440 you ever seen one of these before? I don't think 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.080 I'd encountered one of these before, and I don't remember 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:01.040 encountering one in a study. I've certainly never been in one. Uh. So, 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.399 you imagine a simple platform in the shape of a 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.600 plus sign. You've got two arms of the plus sign 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.280 that are enclosed by walls, and then the other two 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:14.880 arms are open. They're just straight platforms without walls. And 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.320 this shows up in all kinds of studies. How an 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.880 animal moves within an elevated plus maze or EPM can 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.879 be manipulated by lots of variables that are thought to 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.840 control anxiety. The more time the animal spins in the 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.439 closed section enclosed by the walls, you know, sort of 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.960 protected and hidden, usually the more anxious it is thought 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.720 to be, and many animals, maybe most small animals, tend 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.159 to prefer dark, enclosed places. These are the types of 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.240 places that they are more likely to be protected from 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:49.240 predators in their natural environments. Like the rat in your house, 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.159 it likes to hide inside the walls and behind the 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.080 fridge and stuff. It doesn't like to hang out in 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.879 the middle of the floor, right, like a wide open 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.119 spaces that's where a hawk can swoop down and q 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.840 out that sort of thing. Right, It will only venture 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.040 out into the open spaces in order to explore and 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.480 seek rewards. It might go out there if there's food 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.040 in the middle of the floor, um, But if it 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.480 sees something scary, what does it do? It runs to 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.600 an enclosed space. The more an animal like a rat, 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.360 has an induced state of anxiety due to an ambiguous 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.840 or possible threat, the more it will tend to confine 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:26.320 itself to dark, enclosed spaces. And conversely, the less anxiety 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.560 it has, the more it will feel free to explore 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:32.120 open spaces. Uh and the e p M is widely 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:34.919 used in studying animal anxiety and in the testing of 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:39.000 anti anxiety medications. Now Here's where the crowd ads come in. 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:41.960 So the elevated plus mayze has been widely used in 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.320 anxiety research like we're saying, and almost all these studies 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.800 have been on vertebrates, but since there have been at 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:52.919 least two studies using the plus mayze test on crayfish. Again, 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:57.480 this is procam Borus Clarkey, and the updated design used 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.880 an elevated plus mayze submerged in water with the enclosed 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.000 arms shaded so that they were dark because in their 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:10.000 protected environments, the crayfish like dark places. That's a natural 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.480 defensive preference they have. So there were a couple of studies. 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.439 One was Fawcett at All in fourteen and one was 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:20.840 back quay casinave at All in seventeen, and they both 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:25.119 found that if you subjected the crayfish to frightful stimuli 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.800 ahead of time, they would spend more time in the shielded, dark, 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.320 enclosed areas of the elevated plus may So the examples 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:38.000 were mildly painful shocks and harassment by a larger crawfish. 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.200 So like if you take a smaller crayfish and then 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:43.600 subject it to a bigger one doing dominance displays the 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.080 one the little one, the one that is being harassed 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.080 will tend to spend more time in the enclosed area 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.679 and less time exploring the open platforms and the author's 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.760 right quote. These behavioral results fulfill criteria normally designated for 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:01.560