1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuct to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our exploration of invertebrate emotions. 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: In the last episode, we talked about the paper Nautilus 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: or the argonaut. We read that great Marion More poem. 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: We talked about what emotions are, the difficulties and studying them, 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: and we talked about anecdotes about people really seeing personality, 9 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: character and emotion in octopuses, but then also scientific studies 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: looking for certain types of measurable cognitive effects of emotions 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: or emotion like states in invertebrates like bees. We talked 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: about the judgment bias test and how bees might have 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: biases that come about in optimistic or pessimistic ways based 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: on how they're quote feeling. Yeah, A big part of 15 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: the conversation last episode was I think, ultimately about stripping 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,919 Speaker 1: down emotion to something that doesn't depend upon the subjective 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: human experience, and in doing so, something that I don't 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: want to make it sound like we're, oh, we're just 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: we're cutting out all the important stuff. I think a 20 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: lot of what we're cutting out is the poetic stuff, 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: the the the the extra like self contemplation stuff, and 22 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: getting down to the root of what is an emotional state, 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: How does it affect um our behavior and our expectations, 24 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: And then you know, how do we see that echoed 25 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: in other organisms? Right? Well, we're cutting out yeah this 26 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: by cutting out the subjective element. We're cutting out the 27 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: part that would be impossible to study in other animals 28 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: and just trying to say what our emotional states as 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: manifested externally. Yeah, But then of course the difficulty, as 30 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: we discussed, is by taking out the subjective aspect of it, 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: we're taking out the part that is closest to us 32 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: and the thing that you instantly think about when we 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: even say the word emotion of sweet emotion. Oh no, 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: that song fills me with bad emotion, did you. Oh? 35 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if I ever gotten to do this 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: rant before. Y'all know I hate Aerosmith. Oh no, I know, well, 37 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: I think you may have mentioned it once in passing. Yeah, 38 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: even even the early stuff. I don't know. I mean, 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: I can be that classic rock radio uncle, like you 40 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: know when led Zeppelin comes on, I'm like, yeah, I 41 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: feel it, but I don't know that. Something about Aerosmith 42 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: just turns my head three sixty degrees. Well, I have 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: to admit it. Really like in dream On that's that's 44 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: if I hear that one on classic rock radio, I'll 45 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: tune in and listen. Well, I'm glad you like it. Hey, folks, 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: this is Joe from the Future swooping in to alter 47 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: the past. Sorry about the audio, but I realized on 48 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: listening back to this episode that in our excitement about 49 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: the topic, we forgot to reintroduce the paper that we 50 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: were talking about in the first episode, and then we're 51 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about throughout this one as well. So 52 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: that paper was by Clint J. Perry and Luigi Bachi, 53 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: a Donna, and it's called Studying Emotion and Invertebrates What 54 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 1: has been done, what can be measured, and what they 55 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: can provide. It was published in the Journal of Experimental 56 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: Biology in Okay, now back to our original conversation. Okay, 57 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: but uh so, the last time we we talked about 58 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: one of the main three branches of external ways of 59 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: studying emotions and animals. We talked about you know that 60 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: they're there are perhaps cognitive effects of emotions, that emotions 61 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: affect how you perceive the world and how you think. 62 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: That there are behavioral tests of emotions, that emotions affect 63 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: how you act, and that there are physiological tests of 64 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: emotions that emotions affect involuntary physical reactions in the body. 65 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: And we last time we looked at cognition. This time 66 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at the other two. So the first 67 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: would be behavioral tests behavioral signs of emotional states. And 68 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think we should first 69 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: acknowledge is that I'd say this is the primary way 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: that we sense emotions in other people. What do people 71 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: usually do with their bodies, especially their faces, when they're 72 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: feeling various emotions. But as the authors point out quite helpfully, 73 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: they say, quote, invertebrates lack the facial musculature for any 74 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: real type of comparisons to be made in this regard. 75 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: So I think that the jury is in. You can't 76 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: tell if a hornet is smiling. You can't tell if 77 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: there is disgusted on the face of that crab. Yeah, 78 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: I mean, as if a crab had a face anyway. Right, Um, 79 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: but my flogging that horse again, it's not really a 80 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: horse I flog, but no, no, no, actually you're right. 81 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: I think i'd degree the crab. I don't know crabs 82 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: pushing it. I don't know if a crab has a face. Yeah, 83 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: I mean it definitely has the front of a head. 84 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: But that front of a head with the crab is 85 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: not really it's not used for communication. Crabs depend on 86 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: sound as well as you know. The claw waving and 87 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: overall movement displays general body language, but predominantly sound is 88 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: their their form of communication. The wasp, for their part, uh, 89 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: they depend primarily on smell for a communication. We will 90 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: get into that a little bit in the last episode 91 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: with the beest. So their commune occasions since realm is 92 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: not really our own, um, they exist in a in 93 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: a different realm in that regard. Right, But the behavioral 94 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: effects of underlying emotional states are not limited to facial 95 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: expressions alone, just because that's maybe the main way we 96 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: see emotions in other people. Uh. The author's right quote. 97 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: A substantial amount of work in mammals has utilized other 98 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: bodily expressions and motor behavior in response to stimuli to 99 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: assess both valence meaning the pleasantness, and intensity, meaning the 100 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: level of arousal of emotions, and I really think the 101 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: horse is a great example of this for a couple 102 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: of reasons. First of all, the horse is an animal 103 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: that is, that lives in close proximity to humans, that 104 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: is adored by humans. That is, that is often you 105 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: know championed as being this next to the dog and 106 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: you know the cat. I guess it is. It is 107 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: a friend of humanity. And uh, and my wife being 108 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: super into horses and pretty knowledgeable about them, she's just 109 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: told me about some of this before, but I was 110 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: I also looked up a source on this for this 111 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: episode How to Read Your Horses Body Language by Jennifer Williams, 112 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: PhD for Acquis Magazine, and Williams points out that if 113 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: a novice or to view a skilled horse trainer in action, 114 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: they might well guess that this individual is psychic or 115 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: has some sort of mystical Cormick McCarthy in connection to 116 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: the soul of the horse, you know, the deep, dark, 117 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: mystical soil soul of the horse. But it's really all 118 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: about knowing how to read these other signs, the overall 119 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: body language of the horse, and then these other sort 120 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: of non facial or semi facial cues. Well, yeah, I 121 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: mean think if you're a dog person, if you've got 122 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: a dog in your house, think about like, how finally 123 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: a tune you are to your dogs feelings, levels of excitement, motivations, 124 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: and and quote emotional states or you know, there's something 125 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: that is analogous to these emotional states. Uh that if 126 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: somebody who had never met a dog before or hadn't 127 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: spent much time around dogs saw you interacting with your dog, 128 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: they might well think the same thing. You must be psychic. Yeah, 129 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: but no, A lot of it is about picking up 130 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: on all of this language, or indeed just knowing what 131 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: to look for. So in in the case of the horse, 132 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: for instance, um ear position is very important. This is 133 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: one of the apparently the first things you tend to 134 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: learn about about understanding a horse's emotional state. So that 135 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: the ears may face forward, meaning they're interested. They may 136 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: be pinned back, meaning they're angry and they're prone to 137 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: bite or act you know, aggressively slashed defensively. Uh. They 138 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: might be turned out to the side meaning they're relaxed. 139 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: They might be turned back but not pinned, and this 140 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: means they're listening to something behind them and it also 141 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: means they might decide they need to turn around to 142 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: go look at it, and horses, being large animals, that's 143 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: something to be aware of. Uh. And then they also 144 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: might be rapidly swiveling, meaning that they're anxious or at 145 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: their you know, at a high level of alertness. But 146 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: then on top of that there's also head carriage, head 147 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: maybe lowered, elevated snaking. You have to consider four leg 148 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: and hind leg movement and position, muzzle activity, which this 149 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: some of this it's more in line with what you 150 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: might expect from a face, you know, like what are 151 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: the nostrils doing? Uh? You know, what what's the mouth doing? 152 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: What are they doing with their teeth? That sort of thing. 153 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: There is a certain level of like what are their 154 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: eyes doing? Uh? You know, to someone that doesn't really 155 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: know anything about horses, it's easy to sort of think 156 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: of the eyes as being sort of like big empty 157 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: glasses without a lot of emotion. But there is stuff 158 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: you can read into it. There's the movement of the tail, 159 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: and then there's just general whole body stuff like what 160 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: is the overall bodily tension of the animal, how is it? 161 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: How is it moving? And uh? And you can read 162 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: take all of that and read into the emotional state 163 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: of the horse. But if you just look at you 164 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: know what you might be tempted to call the face 165 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: of the horse, You're not necessarily going to pick up 166 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: on on all those cues you have. And I think 167 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: part of this two gets we have to think about 168 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: the human situation. So clearly humans have body language. You know, 169 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: there's more than just the facial communication array with human 170 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: beings totally, but we do depend on the facial communication 171 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: array a lot and do fixate on it to a 172 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: very large degree. But basically, what I'm trying to say, 173 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: using the horses in an example that there are there 174 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: are there are various parts of an organism that you 175 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: can look to to to figure out what their emotional 176 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: state is, and it may or may not be something 177 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: that matches up with the human idea idea of a face. Yes, 178 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: so what would be some of these external behaviors that 179 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: we could measure in invertebrates? One of the most obvious 180 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: behavioral signs of underlying emotional states and animals is retreat behaviors. 181 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: So but you know, like in fear or anxiety, animals 182 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: will retreat, retracting or covering vulnerable body parts, adopting defensive posture, 183 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: and running away. These are some of the clearest ones 184 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: to look for in all of animal behavior. And so 185 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: the first example cited by the authors here looks at 186 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: exactly that. And it's actually a study we've already mentioned 187 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: on this show before. It came up in our episodes 188 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: titled Devour of Memory. Remember that about about the planaria 189 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: and the and the research about whether you could gain 190 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: somebody's memories by eating their body. Uh So in this 191 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: episode that we mentioned to study about a type of 192 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: large sea slug called the California sea hair or Aplasia californica. 193 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: Uh And in that other episode the study came up 194 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: because it demonstrated associate of learning and classical conditioning in 195 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: an invertebrate sea slug. So, you offer a sea hair 196 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: some delicious shrimp extract, but in the test group, well, 197 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: the sea hair is munching on the shrimp extract, it 198 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: gets an electric shock to the head that this painful 199 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: stimulus results in not a frown, of course, but measurable 200 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: behaviors in the slug. It withdraws its head, it withdraws 201 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: its siphon, it inks, and it moves away from the 202 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: shrimp at extract, and sure enough if you train it 203 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: on these associations when simply when the animals from the 204 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: test group are simply presented with shrimp extract, they will 205 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: pull back the siphon and move away. By the way, 206 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: see hair and the electric shrimp extract would be a 207 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: great name for a band. Just to put that out there, 208 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: I think that was a Bob Weir side project. Okay um. 209 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: But whether or not it makes sense to use the 210 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: same word we use for emotions and other mammals quote 211 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: the observed behavioral responses to conditions stimuli resemble the actions 212 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: of conditioned fear in mammals. Subjectively, it might not make 213 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: sense to talk about fear in a sea slug. We 214 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: don't know, but it certainly behaviorally looks like fear. It 215 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: looks like the same thing we recognize this fear in 216 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: mammals or in other humans. Because of course, nothing about 217 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: the shrimp extract itself causes pain. It couldn't be a 218 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: simple stimulus response. It has to be this association with pain, 219 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: the memory of you know, the fear caused by the memory, 220 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of invertebrate studies into emotions look for 221 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: signs of fear because fear is easier to study. Presumable 222 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: fear inducing stimuli are relatively easy to create, and behavioral 223 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: response says are relatively easy to detect. There's another example 224 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: that the author's site here, which is fear research into 225 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: Drosophila also known commonly as fruit flies or as vinegar 226 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: flies small fruit flies. Uh. This is an extremely common 227 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: organism for lab research. You'll find tons of studies modeling 228 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: other things in complex organisms as they appear in Drosophila. 229 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: So in T. Gibson at All studied fear and Drosophila 230 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: caused by the stimulus of an overhead shadow. They used 231 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: a rotating opaque paddle. I don't know if it was 232 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: a ping pong paddle that I kind of hope it was. 233 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: It was some kind of paddle that would be made 234 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: to rotate in a circle in in in a steady progression, 235 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: repeat passages over a container of these these flies that 236 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: would be, say, eating a food source or something. And 237 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: the authors found that multiple repetitive exposures to this overhead 238 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: shadow caused the flies to fly around more, to hop more, 239 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: to freeze more, and to fly away from a food source, 240 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: and there was evidence in this study that the passing 241 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: shadow led to a generalized internal state. The more times 242 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: the shadow passed over, the more avoidance responses happened. So 243 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: it looks like within the flies, it wasn't just stimulus response. 244 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: The shadow passes, then you fly away. If you are 245 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: repeatedly subjected to this stress inducing stimulus, the flies appear 246 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: to enter a state where they're just They're just in 247 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: a semi permanent way agitated. They're flying around, they're they're 248 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: leaving the food source. It looks like they have the 249 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: internal state of being afraid, and the avoidance responses remained 250 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: remained more elevated even after the stimulus stopped. The shadow 251 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: would stop passing over, and for some time afterward, the 252 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: flies acted more agitated, more likely to fly away from 253 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: the food source than flies with less exposure to the shadow. 254 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: And this makes it seem as if the avoidance reactions 255 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: were not just the direct and get response to the shadow, 256 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: but also influenced by this internal state within the flies 257 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: nervous systems, which is similar to how fear works and 258 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: humans and other vertebrates. Something jumps out and scares you, 259 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: you have an immediate response maybe you shriek, maybe you 260 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: pee a little, you know, maybe maybe you jump, But 261 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: then you also remain in a state you're on edge 262 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: for several minutes afterwards, showing these anxiety behaviors even when 263 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: the scary thing is gone or no longer represents a threat. Unfortunately, 264 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: this is a lot of how we live our lives actually, right, Like, 265 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: there's something that kind of like startles you, gets you 266 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: on edge, and maybe it's not even something that would 267 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: be a physical threat. Maybe it's just a conceptual threat. 268 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: You know, you get an email or a tweet or 269 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: anything that kind of puts you on edge, and then 270 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: you just stay that way for a good long while. Yeah, yeah, 271 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: all day generally. Yeah, what happens when you reach for 272 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: your phone first thing in the morning, right, And I 273 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: think that that's an important thing. It calls to to 274 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: attention the difference between fear and anxiety. Year of course, 275 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: is a response to the perception of an immediate threat, 276 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: a clear and present danger, and it results mostly in 277 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: escape behaviors by animals. You're trying to, you know, defend 278 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: yourself and get away, Whereas anxiety is related to fear 279 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: but slightly different. Fear is a response to the clear 280 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: and present danger. Anxiety is a response to ambiguous, imagined, 281 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: or potential threats. When there's a threat that's not necessarily 282 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: right in front of you, but you imagine it might 283 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: be waiting nearby, it might be around the corner. It's 284 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: kind of lurking in the the the information sphere around you, 285 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: as opposed to being right there in front of you. Uh. 286 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: And of course, the bringing back to the human experience, 287 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: we have no shortage of fear is just sort of 288 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: rotating around us in the information sphere, and this state 289 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: of anxiety actually brings us to the crowd ads. I know, 290 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: we promised we'd we'd get there eventually. A k A crayfish, 291 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: a k A. Mudbugs. Did you call girl calling him bugs? No, 292 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: this is what I've just heard them called. Did you 293 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: catch them in the creek? No? I know I was 294 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: never around them growing up, but I have family that 295 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: lives in southern Mississippi, and you know they're they're all 296 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: about them, uh down there. In fact, I've been to 297 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: and this will this will be like an image to 298 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: come back to. As we discussed their possible emotional states, 299 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: I went to a Marty Gropp parade not the main 300 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: Marty graparade, but I like, you know, one leading up 301 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: to it in southern Mississippi, and there were like games 302 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: where live crawfish were were thrown by children, Like they 303 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: would throw crawfish back and forth at each other and 304 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: then occasionally fall onto the concrete and all and um. Yeah, 305 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: at the time I thought it was weird and kind 306 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: of barbaric. So maybe I'll feel even more so as 307 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: we discussed their their their inter emotional states here, so 308 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: it gets turned inward as well. Though. Do you ever 309 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: play the game, I assume you didn't or see people 310 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: play the game where you just let a crawdad pinch, 311 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: you know, just like let it pinch your nose or 312 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: your finger or something. No, did you do this crowing up? Uh? No, 313 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: but I had friends who did. Where was this in Tennessee? 314 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: They were crawl crawdads just in the creeks. I guess 315 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: there were probably a different species, I'm not quite sure 316 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: than the one we're about to talk about, but yeah, 317 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: there were some kind of crayfish shaped organism living in 318 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: the creeks, freshwater creeks. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. My main 319 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: experience with them is just occasionally eating them as an 320 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: adult um. But that's about it. Never got to like 321 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: play with them as a child. But for anyone out 322 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: there who does doesn't it still doesn't know what we're 323 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: talking about. It's essentially a small crustacean like a fresh 324 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: a small fresh water generally lobster, right, tiny lobster. The 325 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 1: specific UH species that's going to come up in the 326 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: in the research we're getting to is Procamboris clarkey. And yes, 327 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: these are the crawl fish of the famed Louisiana crawfish boil. 328 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: So I don't know if they were if they were 329 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: boiled up with some zatarans and eating after the test. 330 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: I should also add that sometimes you'll see crayfish in 331 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: aquarium settings and it can be quite beautiful as well, 332 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: So you know, I don't think human and humans humanities 333 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: relationship with the crayfish is mostly uh, mostly something that 334 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: revolves around eating them, but sometimes you'll see them as pets. Now, 335 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: to come back to the idea of anxiety, we were 336 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: talking about the difference between fear and anxiety. You know, 337 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: we're saying fear often results in escape behaviors. Anxiety is 338 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: often thought to result in conservative or defense behavior, for example, 339 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: to limit openness and to limit exploratory behavior. Animals in 340 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 1: an anxious state are more likely to seek out closed, familiar, 341 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: and protected in environments, whereas animals in a non anxious 342 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 1: state are more likely to explore unfamiliar and open environments. 343 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: And one type of experiment that has been used to 344 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: study anxiety and animals like rats and mice and now 345 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: in crayfish, is the elevated plus maze. So, Robert, had 346 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: you ever seen one of these before? I don't think 347 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: I'd encountered one of these before, and I don't remember 348 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: encountering one in a study. I've certainly never been in one. Uh. So, 349 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: you imagine a simple platform in the shape of a 350 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: plus sign. You've got two arms of the plus sign 351 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: that are enclosed by walls, and then the other two 352 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: arms are open. They're just straight platforms without walls. And 353 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: this shows up in all kinds of studies. How an 354 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: animal moves within an elevated plus maze or EPM can 355 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: be manipulated by lots of variables that are thought to 356 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: control anxiety. The more time the animal spins in the 357 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: closed section enclosed by the walls, you know, sort of 358 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: protected and hidden, usually the more anxious it is thought 359 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: to be, and many animals, maybe most small animals, tend 360 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: to prefer dark, enclosed places. These are the types of 361 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: places that they are more likely to be protected from 362 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: predators in their natural environments. Like the rat in your house, 363 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: it likes to hide inside the walls and behind the 364 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: fridge and stuff. It doesn't like to hang out in 365 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: the middle of the floor, right, like a wide open 366 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: spaces that's where a hawk can swoop down and q 367 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: out that sort of thing. Right, It will only venture 368 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: out into the open spaces in order to explore and 369 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: seek rewards. It might go out there if there's food 370 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: in the middle of the floor, um, But if it 371 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: sees something scary, what does it do? It runs to 372 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: an enclosed space. The more an animal like a rat, 373 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: has an induced state of anxiety due to an ambiguous 374 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: or possible threat, the more it will tend to confine 375 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: itself to dark, enclosed spaces. And conversely, the less anxiety 376 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: it has, the more it will feel free to explore 377 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: open spaces. Uh and the e p M is widely 378 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: used in studying animal anxiety and in the testing of 379 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: anti anxiety medications. Now Here's where the crowd ads come in. 380 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: So the elevated plus mayze has been widely used in 381 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: anxiety research like we're saying, and almost all these studies 382 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: have been on vertebrates, but since there have been at 383 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: least two studies using the plus mayze test on crayfish. Again, 384 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: this is procam Borus Clarkey, and the updated design used 385 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: an elevated plus mayze submerged in water with the enclosed 386 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: arms shaded so that they were dark because in their 387 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: protected environments, the crayfish like dark places. That's a natural 388 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: defensive preference they have. So there were a couple of studies. 389 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: One was Fawcett at All in fourteen and one was 390 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: back quay casinave at All in seventeen, and they both 391 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: found that if you subjected the crayfish to frightful stimuli 392 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: ahead of time, they would spend more time in the shielded, dark, 393 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: enclosed areas of the elevated plus may So the examples 394 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: were mildly painful shocks and harassment by a larger crawfish. 395 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: So like if you take a smaller crayfish and then 396 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: subject it to a bigger one doing dominance displays the 397 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: one the little one, the one that is being harassed 398 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: will tend to spend more time in the enclosed area 399 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: and less time exploring the open platforms and the author's 400 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: right quote. These behavioral results fulfill criteria normally designated for 401 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: anxiety and mammals, including being innate, being unconditioned, occurring in 402 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: the absence of a stressor, and expressed in a novel context. Alright, 403 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: so in this experiment we see the evidence that a crayfish, 404 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: something we don't think of as having emotional states, really 405 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: ultimately has something very similar to the the fear that 406 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: is experienced by a mouse or a rat, and therefore 407 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: very similar to what we experience. Right, So it's not 408 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: just stimulus response. I mean you could you might imagine 409 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: that an animal without emotional states could say, retreat in 410 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: the immediate term from something that's threatening it by going 411 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: into an enclosed space, but even afterwards it seems to 412 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: remain in this internal state where it prefers to stay 413 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: in the close, protected spaces and does less exploring than 414 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: a control crayfish if it has at some recent time 415 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: been threatened or harassed. It sounds like a familiar story. Yeah, yeah, Like, 416 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: like I say, if we take away sort of the 417 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: the holy human qualities of fear. Uh, and look at 418 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: it objectively, like that's what we're looking at here, we're 419 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: looking at the fear of the crawfish. Well, maybe we 420 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: should take a quick break and then when we come 421 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: back we can discuss the joy of the fire ant. 422 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: Thank thank alright, we're back. So the authors of this 423 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: study we've been looking at point out one shortcoming of 424 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: the existing body of research on animal emotions, and it's 425 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: that it is, as on the whole, overly focused on 426 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: negative emotions. Quote. It is argued that the reasons that 427 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: positive emotions have been neglected in research are because they 428 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: are few in number, reflected even in the imbalance of 429 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: English language words for negative over positive emotions, and are 430 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,719 Speaker 1: harder to differentiate. The asymmetry might also stem from our 431 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: understanding that natural selection has shaped emotions more for survival 432 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: than for prosperity. There are many more threats than treats 433 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: in our environment. Also, they point out that we're looking 434 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: for tests mirroring work done on humans. Most psychological and 435 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: clinical work in the history of science has been focused 436 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: on solving problems rather than on studying ways in which 437 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: people are doing fine all of which I think is 438 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: probably true. I mean, I think all of those reasons 439 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: are valid. But despite these limitations, it would be great 440 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: to have more research attempting to understand positive emotions or 441 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: the state's analogous to positive emotions in non human animals 442 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: and invertebrates like it. It's just kind of a bummer 443 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: and kind of limiting when it's overwhelmingly research on fear 444 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: and aversion. Yeah, that that's an interesting point about like 445 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,719 Speaker 1: even the the the English language bias for negativity as 446 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: opposed to positivity. Uh, it makes me think of going 447 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: to our our neighborhood reality the only video rental store 448 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: in the city or state video Drome. Video Drome has 449 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: a sizeable horror selection, and I love to lose myself 450 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: in it. But what is the opposite of the horror section? 451 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: There's not really one, I guess what the maybe the 452 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: comedies but Robert Altman section though maybe that. I mean, 453 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: even you know, any comedy, any drum, anything that's not 454 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: like straight up like little Kids cinema, I mean, to 455 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: whatever extent that exists, Like anything that's not just teletopies 456 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: is going to have risk and danger, and these negative 457 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: emotions that are there to at least propel the corresponding 458 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: positive ones. Yeah, I think you're exactly right, And I 459 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: think the point they're making is a good one. That 460 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily that there's more you know, uh, negative 461 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: emotion than positive emotion and human life, but that for 462 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: some reason we're more we're happier to let positive emotions 463 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: all kind of blend together and be the same thing. 464 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: They're all just you know, there are million different forms 465 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: of happiness and joy, but we don't have as many 466 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: differentiated words for those states, you know, whereas you know, 467 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: we're we're very into getting down in the nitty gritty 468 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: of different types of ways to feel bad. Well, I 469 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: guess one of the it kind of comes back a 470 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: little bit, probably to some we've discussed before, the idea 471 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: that when you're happy, if you contemplate about your happiness, 472 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: if you stop to consider your happiness, then it goes away. 473 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: But if you don't need to think about it too much, 474 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: you don't really have enough time to get to nuanced 475 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: in the language, whereas a negative, a good negative emotion 476 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: will just really sit there and you can get to 477 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: know it. You can you can really uh, you know, 478 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: formalize your relationship with it. Yeah. Now. On the other hand, 479 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: there have been a few studies that have gone against 480 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: this trend of focusing overwhelmingly on negative emotions in these 481 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: animal studies. For example, in the last episode, we talked 482 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: about the one cognitive tests, the judgment bias test, that 483 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: at least appeared to show the cognitive effects of something 484 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: like pleasure or happiness in the bumblebee. You remember, it 485 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: was like, if you give the bumble bee a free treat, 486 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: give it some free sugar, it will tend after that 487 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: to at least appear to have an optimistic bias to 488 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: interpret ambiguous information as as being something good or approachable. 489 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: The next line of research involves the behavior and ants 490 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: that some researchers think may be associated with an internal 491 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: state analogous to happiness or joy. Uh So, what might 492 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: the dreaded fire ant have in common with your favorite 493 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: cute puppy wagging? Butt wagging? Do tell? Do tell? Alright? So, 494 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: the red imported fire ant or Solenopsis invicta has displayed 495 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: a very interesting behavior observed by a number of researchers. 496 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: Reported in a study in Steen by Debbie Castle, christophord Liu, hun, 497 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: Daniel Schiffmann, and S. Bradley Vinson called a study on 498 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: abdominal wagging in the fire ant Solenopsis invicta with speculation 499 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: on its meaning in the Journal of Bioeconomics. So, the 500 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: researchers were just watching lots of hours of video taken 501 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: from inside a fire ant nest, and from these observations 502 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: they started to notice a pattern of behavior where the 503 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,479 Speaker 1: ants inside the nest would basically stick their butt up 504 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: in the air and wave it around. Quote they position 505 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: and move their abdomen up and down at forty five degrees, 506 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: and they called this behavior wagging. Now, raising and wiggling 507 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: the abdomen has uses in other contexts for fire ants. 508 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: You may have seen fire ants doing this defensively. The 509 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: abdomen or back segment of the body is also known 510 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: as a gaster which is great like Charles Dickens name, 511 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, like like William Gaster uh. And outside the 512 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: nest the behavior is known as gaster flagging. The flagging 513 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 1: usually involves raising the abdomen up higher something more like 514 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: nine d degrees. Flagging is apparently used during foraging to 515 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: disperse venom into the air, and it's believed to deter 516 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: other insects like competitor ants from the foraging area. So 517 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: you're out trying to gather food for the colony, and 518 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: then some other ants come in. You will stick your 519 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: butt up in the air and spit some venom out 520 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: into the air to try to drive the other ants off. 521 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: There's also some evidence that some abdominal wagging or gaster 522 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: flagging emits a sound as the gaster joint rubs across itself, 523 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: and this would be a tiny, high pitched squeak. We're 524 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: not sure what role this sound plays, but it's possible 525 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: that as a it has a role in communications, such 526 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: as calling for help when an ant is trapped or 527 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: when it's in trouble. However, Castle at All believe that 528 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: in their observations the inside the nest, wagging behavior was 529 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: not defensive in any way. Within the nest, they found 530 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: that the wagging emitted neither sound nor venom, no squeaks, 531 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: no toxins, and the stinger was never extended during this period. 532 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: So if they're just wagging around and it has nothing 533 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: to do with the other types of wagging that these 534 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: ants normally do, what's going on. Furthermore, they found that 535 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: the inside nest, wagging happened primarily when the ants were 536 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: engaged in two activities, eating sugar or tending to the brood, 537 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: in other words, taking care of the young. Well, those 538 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: are two pleasurable experiences just for humans, sure, And they 539 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: did not find any evidence of nestmates reacting to the wagging, 540 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: so they couldn't detect any role for communication in the wagging. 541 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: So what's it for. Well, the author's hypothesized that quote 542 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: this in nest behavior might be analogous to facial expressions 543 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: and bodily postures of hedonic pleasure in humans and other 544 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: mammals during pleasurable events. So that's a very interesting idea. 545 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: Perhaps a fire aunt smiles by wagging its gaster in 546 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: the air. Now we should definitely acknowledge, and the researchers 547 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: do acknowledge that this is far from proven. That there 548 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: are a few other possibilities to Maybe the wagging is 549 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: some kind of mechanical reaction in the body to certain 550 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: uses of the mouth parts. Soon the mouth parts would 551 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: be engaged during eating or during tending to the brood. 552 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: Maybe something's happening that just happens to make their butt 553 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: wiggle in the air at the same time. So it 554 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: would help if this could be paired with other types 555 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: of tests. For example, would consuming sugar water or tending 556 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: to the brood also caused the fire ants to have 557 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: an optimistic bias in judgment bias tests. That would probably 558 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: strengthen the case for this wagging as a bodily expression 559 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: of something like pleasure or happiness. But I love the possibility. 560 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: Maybe the ant smiles with its But but again, this 561 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: would this would come down to as some physical body 562 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: language that is observable that would potentially demonstrate the emotional 563 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: state of the creature, right, and it would be helpful 564 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: if you could pair it with other things that were 565 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: presumed to be associated with that same state. Now, another 566 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: one about positive emotions comes back to bumble bees, which 567 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: we mentioned in the last episode. Remember earlier there was 568 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: this research seeming to indicate that giving a bumblebee some 569 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: free sugar would result in an optimistic bias in these 570 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: cognitive tests. Another test on bumblebees looked at the effects 571 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: of sugar water on behavior after a stressful event. So 572 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: in the yild, bumblebees are subject to ambushes by certain 573 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: sit and wait predators, such as the crab spider, have 574 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: you ever seen a crab spider in action. I'm not well. 575 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: So they will tend to wait on a flower, uh, 576 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: and they'll just kind of blend in there among the 577 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: petals that they've got these wide legs, uh for a 578 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: big hug. And then when the bee lands on the 579 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: flower to try to get some nectar, the crab spider 580 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: will grab it with its legs and try to bite 581 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: down and kill it. And a lot of times in 582 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: natural encounters, the bee is briefly captured by the spider 583 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: but then manages to escape. So in a experiment, Perry 584 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: at All created a simulation of a crab spider attack 585 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: by putting together a mechanism that would ambush and trap 586 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: a bumblebee for three seconds before releasing it unharmed. Now, obviously, 587 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: after a stressful brush with death like this, the bee 588 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: will take some time before it again begins to forage 589 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: and start landing on flowers and stuff. And what Perry 590 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: had All found was that a treat of sugar water 591 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: given before the attack would shorten the duration of this 592 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: cool down period after the spider attack. So if a 593 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: bee gets a sweet treat before a simulated spider attack, 594 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: it takes the be less time to reinitiate landing on 595 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: flowers and feeding after this stressful event. Now, again, there 596 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: could be other interpretations of what's happening here. Maybe somehow 597 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: the nutrition and the sugar makes the bee physically stronger 598 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: and less vulnerable, etcetera, And maybe something like that. But 599 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: one possibility is that the pleasurable stimuli of the sugar 600 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: water puts the bee in something analogous to a better 601 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: mood or emotional state, making it more resilient to stressful setbacks, 602 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: which I think is something that we're probably all familiar 603 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: with ourselves. Right. You know that your emotional state is 604 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: uh dictate strongly how you will react to negative incoming events. 605 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: The same thing that floors you one day, I'll just 606 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: kind of bounce off you another right right, Or if 607 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: you've had a particularly bad day, then bad news is 608 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: going to you know, have a more negative effect on 609 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: your well being right now. The authors identify vocalizations and 610 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: sound as a possibly very fruitful behavioral avenue for future 611 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: research and invertebrate emotions, noting that Charles Starwin himself speculated 612 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy two that quote insects might potentially communicate 613 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: emotions such as anger, terror, jealousy, and love through their stridulation, 614 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: you know, the great rubbing together sounds that insects make. 615 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,959 Speaker 1: So what does a jealous cricket sound like. I'm not sure, 616 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: but it's easy to imagine all the various anthropomorphic interpretations. 617 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: So regarding our our, our ideal cartoon cricket, I'm sure. 618 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: Do you even remember how in the original Pinocchio, Pinocchio 619 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: kills the cricket with a hammer? What? Yeah, the cartoon 620 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: or no story? Not? No, no, not in the movie. 621 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: The movie changed it and made it nicer in the 622 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: original story, Jimmy Cricket, Yeah, oh man, I don't remember 623 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: if he's named Jiminy Cricket. I think he's just a 624 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: magic cricket and Pinocchio kills him with a hammer. I 625 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: didn't know that Pinocchio is in one of his bad phases. Uh. 626 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think I like Pinocchio. I don't 627 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: have a lot. I don't have a strong affinity for 628 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: the Disney version either. The only thing that I have 629 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: a strong affinity for is Jimmy crickets role in the 630 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: Mickey Christmas Carol, in which he plays what the ghost 631 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: of Christmas past I believe. I don't. I don't know 632 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: if I've ever seen that. Oh, you should see. It's 633 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 1: like thirty minutes long, and it's it's a pretty good 634 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: streamlined adaptation of a Christmas Carol. Oh, I'm sure it's 635 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: better than the other thirty minute version of a Christmas 636 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: Carol I've seen, which is called the Christmas Carol and 637 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: it's narrated by Vincent Price. It's very bad. Oh man, Well, 638 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: later this year, when Christmas rolls around again, I think 639 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: we should do an episode on a Christmas Carol. I 640 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of discuss there. Okay, well, maybe 641 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: we should take a break and then when we come 642 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 1: back we can talk about physiological tests. Alright, we're back, 643 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: So are entering the final phase here. We're going to 644 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: be discussing physiological tests for emotion. Right, So we've talked 645 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: about cognitive tests, We've talked about behavioral tests. Physiological tests 646 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 1: for emotion. Uh. In people, they look for correlates between 647 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: reported emotional states and automatic responses in the body. So, 648 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: for example, somebody jumps out at you with a werewolf mask, 649 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: You're not just gonna jump back. It's not just gonna 650 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: maybe give you a pessimistic bias, But you will also 651 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: have increased heart rate, release of stress hormones like norap 652 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: and effer and cortisol, dilation of the pupils in the eye. 653 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: You might be a bit, you know, a bunch of stuff. 654 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: And a lot of this is because it's not just 655 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: that you saw a werewolf. It's that your body is 656 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: preparing you to fight a werewolf or run from a werewolf. Right, 657 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: the fight or flight response kicks in and and it 658 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: entails this cascade of automatic reactions in the body, things 659 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: that you don't control behaviorally. They just happen without your 660 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 1: say so. And these physiological responses can usually be measured 661 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: objectively pretty easily, which is very handy. How our physiological 662 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: responses alone can be they can be hard to use 663 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: to identify individual emotions. For example, if you're measuring a 664 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: heart rate, heart rate might increase in response to anxiety 665 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: or to joy. The fact that the heart speeds up 666 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: it's beating tells you there's some kind of arousal, but 667 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily tell you which. One person's heart could 668 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: just be full of song. Right. So, sometimes if you 669 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: look at enough different physiological responses at the same time 670 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: and compare them. You can start to zero in on 671 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: specific emotions, but not always UH. And just like it's 672 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: hard to translate research on human facial expressions to invertebrates, 673 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: it's also hard to do so with human physiological responses 674 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: to emotions. UH. The authors write, quote, most of these 675 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: types of measurements are quite difficult to apply to invertebrates 676 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: given their often miniature size and hard carapasts, and in 677 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 1: the case of insects, an open circulatory system where heart 678 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: rate is not increased. But there has been some interesting research. Nonetheless, 679 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: they cited a bunch of it just to pick out 680 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: a couple of examples. Kita at All In two thousand 681 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: eleven did research on fear conditioning, this time in pond snails, 682 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: very expressive species. UH. They conditioned the pond snails with 683 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: an association between sugar water, which normally you give some 684 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: give some sugar water to them and they will start 685 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: feeding behaviors. But they negatively conditioned this with potassium chloride 686 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: associations and potassium chloride causes withdrawal of the body into 687 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: the shell. UH. Not only did fear conditioning work, the 688 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: snails began to react to the sugar by withdrawing, but 689 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: physiological monitoring also found that conditioned exposure to the sugar 690 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: caused the heart to skip a beat quote, suggesting physiological 691 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: responses similar to fear in mammals. So you train them 692 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: to associate potassium chloride, this noxious chemical, with the sugar, 693 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,359 Speaker 1: then later you just present them with sugar. Not only 694 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: do they not go for the sugar, it makes their 695 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: hearts skip up eat though I do think it's interesting 696 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: to note potassium chloride is literally a heart stopping poison. 697 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 1: It's been used to cause cardiac arrest and lethal injections. 698 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 1: Of course, there was no potassium chloride in the sugar 699 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: once it was conditioned, but maybe that's just a coincidence. 700 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: But the idea is that been presented with the with 701 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,760 Speaker 1: the sugar, then after being exposed to the potassium chloride, 702 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: there is this this moment of physiological fear in response. Right, 703 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: the body reacts in a way similar to mammals reacting 704 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: to the werewolf mask, but this time it's just sugar 705 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 1: that the snail has come with training to associate with 706 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: a bad chemical. So it seems that the majority of 707 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: research on physiological correlates of invertebrate emotions has to do 708 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 1: with the presence of what are called biogenic amines, which 709 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: are thought to play a major, if not comprehensive role 710 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: in the creation and control of emotions in the human brain, 711 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: especially the hormones and neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, and nora adrenaline. 712 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: Now as important as these three substances clearly are in 713 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 1: our emotional lives, unfortunately it is not as simple as 714 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: saying one is a happiness drug in the body and 715 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: one is a fear drug, etcetera. They play complex interacting 716 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: roles in everything from attention and arousal to reward, motivation, 717 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: and sleep, and the manipulation of emotions is generally not 718 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: as simple as just saying like, well, you need more 719 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: of one of these things, but manipulating the presence of 720 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: one or more of these neurotransmitters can have some measurable 721 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: effects on emotions. For example, invertebrate nervous systems also appear 722 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: to make use of these biogenic amines or analogs to them. 723 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: For example, in bees, the hormone octopomy and appears to 724 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: play a role similar to that of nora adrenaline and humans, 725 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: and so they cite one possible example of these physiological parallels. 726 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,760 Speaker 1: Quote Bates and and colleagues in two thousand eleven assessed 727 00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: how systemic biogenic amine levels changed in response to a 728 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: presumed negative emotional event hemal lymph. And remember that's like 729 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: insect blood. Hama lymph was collected from honey bees after 730 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: simulating a predator attack shaking bees on a vortex for 731 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 1: sixty seconds. And this is like the thing we talked 732 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: about in the last episode, where you'd shake the colony 733 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: to simulate an attacked by a honey badger. Picking up 734 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: with the quote. Analysis of the hemolymph using high performance 735 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: liquid chromatography or HPLC showed that systemic levels of the 736 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: biogenic amines dopamine, octopamine, chemical chemically similar to noor, adrenaline, 737 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: and serotonin all decreased in response to bees being shaken vigorously. 738 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: In humans, it seems that depletion of biogenic amine serotonin, noor, adrenaline, 739 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: and dopamine is responsible for features of depression in the 740 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: monoamine hypothesis of depression, and also in fourteen, Faucet and 741 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: colleagues reportedly used chemical manipulation of serotonin levels to alter 742 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 1: anxiety associated behaviors of crayfish, like in the plus maze scenario. 743 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: One last one period, all In found that manipulation of 744 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 1: dopamine levels seemed to affect the apparent positive emotional state 745 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: of bumble bees. Remember the sugar causing the bumble bees 746 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 1: to have an optimistic bias. Well, here quote the optimistic 747 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: behavior scene and the judgment bias test in response to 748 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: pretest sugar reward was abolished when the bees were topically 749 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: treated with the dopamine receptor antagonist flu finazine. And apparently 750 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: the same treatment eliminated the positive effect of pretest sugar 751 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,839 Speaker 1: during the simulated attack by a crab spider. So if 752 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: you do something to this insect's dopamine levels by by 753 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: putting in this disruptor of dopamine, you somehow seemed to 754 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: interfere with the bees ability to have an optimistic bias 755 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: in response to getting some sugar. Interesting. So, basically, the 756 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: more we reveal about sort of the underlying chemistry of 757 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 1: these emotional states, uh as that they are in humans 758 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: and as they are in these various invertebrate species, it 759 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 1: just reveals that, yeah, we have emotional states occurring in 760 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,879 Speaker 1: these organisms at least the physiological correlates of them. Right again, Yeah, 761 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: we can't begin to get into the subjective aspect of it, 762 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 1: which you know made you know very I don't think 763 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: it's a stretch at all to say that whatever a 764 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: crawfish is experiencing is fear, is different than what a 765 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: human is experienced in his fear. It can't it can't 766 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: contemplate the fear at the same level that that a 767 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: human can. But like the root of it, like the 768 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:36,280 Speaker 1: root chemical and physical, physiological, um manifestation of that emotion 769 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: is essentially the same. Right. And I think now we've 770 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,359 Speaker 1: seen maybe not conclusive, but pretty good evidence in three 771 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: different branches, not just the physiological which we were just 772 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: talking about, but earlier the cognitive and in the behavioral spheres. 773 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: And I think we should emphasize again you know what 774 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: you're getting at. None of these tests are perfect. Even 775 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: if all the results are robust, replicable, they hold up 776 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: over time, they still don't necessarily tell us anything about 777 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: what it's like to be a bumblebee or a crayfish. 778 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: I think there's always going to be that gap that 779 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: we are perhaps jumping with the rocket boots of anthropomorphic projection. 780 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: But for now, experiments like these are the best evidence 781 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,839 Speaker 1: we have to try to figure out what kinds of emotions, 782 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: if any, are present in insects, crustaceans, gastropods, and all 783 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 1: manner of creatures without a spine, And those things we 784 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: learned could be very helpful in helping us understand how 785 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: emotions in mammals, including humans, developed over evolutionary time, because there, 786 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, we we look at modern invertebrates and see 787 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: nervous systems. You know that their brain structure is very 788 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: similar to what we think our ancestors may have had 789 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: at certain times in history. We can learn what the 790 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 1: chemical mechanisms of emotional motivation states are, how they came 791 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: to be. Humans ain't crawd ads, but crawd ads can 792 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: still teach us a lot. I think now at this 793 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: point that one question a lot of people they have is, okay, 794 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: what sorts of animals don't have emotions? Then? Like, is 795 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: there is there any level that we can say, all right, 796 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: here's the cut off point? Um? You know, it's it's 797 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: an interesting question to consider. Um. And I was poking 798 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: around and basically one thing I have to realize is 799 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: that is, like we said earlier the quest for invertebrate 800 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 1: emotions is is not as expansive as as other areas 801 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: of emotional research, certainly in higher organisms. So there's just 802 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: a lot of data we don't have. Um. So you know, 803 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: I don't know when you get down to like single 804 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,359 Speaker 1: cell organisms, I don't see. I didn't didn't find any 805 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,839 Speaker 1: papers arguing for emotional states there, no, uh and even 806 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:44,439 Speaker 1: in the weirdly like we think octopuses are more complex, uh, 807 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of intelligence than these other than 808 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: like insects and crayfish are. But I wasn't really finding 809 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: much in the way of studying emotions and octopuses. It 810 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,800 Speaker 1: was mostly in these simpler organisms. So yeah, there's clearly 811 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,879 Speaker 1: still lots of ground to cover. Uh. Now, I mean, 812 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's one of the I don't think anybody's 813 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: actually arguing that, say, a slime mold has emotions either. 814 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: But we have discussed in the show how a slime mold, uh, 815 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: an organism without like a central nervous system is still 816 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,919 Speaker 1: able to learn, it's still engaging in things that are 817 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 1: are are like problem solving. So you know, the stuff 818 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,919 Speaker 1: like that adds uh some complexity to this question. But 819 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: then another thing that came to mind. Uh, plants the 820 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: topic itself. I think we'll have to wait wait for 821 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 1: another episode. But plants can essentially here, see, smell, and 822 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,720 Speaker 1: respond to stimuli, and they are, according to a University 823 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: of Missouri in Columbia plant science professor Jack C. Schultz, 824 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: essentially quote just very slow animals. Um which uh, which 825 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: is it is? It is hilarious, But at the same 826 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: time it you know, you you you look at say 827 00:46:54,560 --> 00:47:00,120 Speaker 1: time time lapse footage of save vines in action and 828 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: and flowers and uh and so forth. There just the 829 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: movements of of of plants in general. And this does 830 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:08,840 Speaker 1: have that seem to have a ring of truth to 831 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 1: it that this is this is an organism that is 832 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: not as still as we uh as we may think. 833 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: We touched the this briefly, and though the recent Tolkien episodes, 834 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, the the idea of the end, the moving tree, 835 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: the tree that thinks and reasons um, may not be 836 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: as far fetched as as some of us think. But 837 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,960 Speaker 1: as for emotions and plants, uh, there's actually some fascinating 838 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: research there as well. But that is another story and 839 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 1: shall be told another time. So hopefully we give everybody 840 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,920 Speaker 1: some food for thought here about our own emotional states, 841 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: what the human emotional state is and what it isn't 842 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: and then to what degree we can perceive and attribute 843 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: emotional states to other organisms, even though you know the 844 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: lowly crawfish. I mean, I wonder if understanding the way 845 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: that that anxiety might affect be ease or crawfish or 846 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: something like that, could in wait, help give you a 847 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,319 Speaker 1: foothold in controlling your own emotions. I mean again, this 848 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 1: is something we we sort of began the last episode 849 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: talking about how the emotions are from our brains. They 850 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: are within us, but often it can feel as if 851 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 1: we are in them. You know, there is see on 852 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 1: which we're afloat and we have no power over them, right, 853 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: or their external forces like something from out of Greek mythology, 854 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: or you know, some sort of a you know, a 855 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: fundamentalist um you know, Christian worldview, Angel on one shoulder, 856 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,360 Speaker 1: devil on the other, affecting our mental states. But no, 857 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: it's it's all within and it is and it is 858 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 1: you know, a part of the same navigation, a reality 859 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,720 Speaker 1: that is taking place in all these other organisms as well. 860 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 1: And yeah, therefore, if we demystify it a bit, if 861 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,800 Speaker 1: we sort of take a step back from it and 862 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: in fact increase awareness of what it is. Then. Yeah, 863 00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: that gives us, I think, a tremendous strength. You know, 864 00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: it keeps basically keeping uh, keeping our our irksome brains 865 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 1: from the evening ourselves about what we are. You are 866 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: that churning ocean, Yes, which perhaps is some ambiguous information 867 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: that you may either see in a negative or a 868 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: positive light, depending on your predisposition. All right, so obviously 869 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 1: you all have emotions, and you all have various interactions 870 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: with animals, be at a dog, a cattle, horse, or 871 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,919 Speaker 1: a crayfish, or or or a b So we would 872 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,440 Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there on the topic 873 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: that we've discussed in these two episodes of Stuff to 874 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind. Hey, even if you have some thoughts 875 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 1: about plants, go ahead and go ahead and let us 876 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: know about those. Uh. In the meantime, if you want 877 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 878 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,879 Speaker 1: where can you find this show? Well, you can find 879 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,799 Speaker 1: this show anywhere you find podcasts wherever that happens to be. 880 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: Just make sure you rate, review, and subscribe. Those are 881 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,800 Speaker 1: the acts that help us out huge things. As always 882 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer, Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 883 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,719 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with feedback on this 884 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 885 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,399 Speaker 1: or just to say hi, you can email us at 886 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:12,400 Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff 887 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 888 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the 889 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 1: I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening 890 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.