WEBVTT - What Children Can Teach Us About Creativity 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:34.956 Pushkin, being noisy, both literally and metaphorically, doing lots of weird, 0:00:35.156 --> 0:00:38.676 random stuff right that doesn't seem to make sense, being 0:00:39.116 --> 0:00:42.836 impulsive and curious, and taking risks. All these features of 0:00:42.916 --> 0:00:44.956 what children are like that we might have thought were 0:00:44.996 --> 0:00:50.236 signs that they were irrational or just immature, really are 0:00:50.716 --> 0:00:52.676 exactly the things that make them so good at learning. 0:00:53.236 --> 0:00:57.396 Alison Gopnik is a developmental psychologist. She spent the last 0:00:57.436 --> 0:01:01.036 few decades studying children's brains and how they learn. She 0:01:01.196 --> 0:01:03.836 says they're the best learners we know of in the universe, 0:01:04.316 --> 0:01:06.236 and that if we can just let kids do their 0:01:06.236 --> 0:01:10.716 thing and not overparent them, actually lead to better results. 0:01:11.436 --> 0:01:13.916 And it's not to say that parents aren't important. Parents 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:17.516 are extremely important, But the things that make parents important 0:01:17.876 --> 0:01:20.676 are in the kind of spontaneous things like the fact 0:01:20.716 --> 0:01:23.916 that they love their children and that they put energy 0:01:23.996 --> 0:01:27.196 into taking care of those children, not that they have 0:01:27.236 --> 0:01:29.236 some kind of special expertise that they read in a 0:01:29.276 --> 0:01:31.436 book or found on a blog that they can use 0:01:31.476 --> 0:01:32.916 to make those children come out better. 0:01:36.036 --> 0:01:39.716 On today's episode, the Creative Genius of Children and what 0:01:39.756 --> 0:01:44.756 they can teach us, I'm Maya Shunker and this is 0:01:44.796 --> 0:01:47.396 a slight change of plans, a show about who we 0:01:47.436 --> 0:01:49.716 are and who we become in the face of a 0:01:49.756 --> 0:02:05.036 big change. Allison is the author of several acclaimed books, 0:02:05.156 --> 0:02:09.556 including The Philosophical Baby and The Scientist and the crit Work. 0:02:09.636 --> 0:02:13.996 She often refers to children as humanity's research and development department, 0:02:14.556 --> 0:02:16.876 because they interact with the world like it's one big 0:02:16.916 --> 0:02:20.596 science experiment. It's pretty different from how we as adults 0:02:20.636 --> 0:02:23.036 engage with the world, and so I started off by 0:02:23.116 --> 0:02:26.876 asking Alison more about this distinction. I'd love to start 0:02:26.876 --> 0:02:30.876 with the basics, Alison. We know that children's brains are 0:02:30.876 --> 0:02:34.116 different from adult brains. But it's easy to think that 0:02:34.196 --> 0:02:38.276 children's brains are just immature versions of our brains. But 0:02:38.396 --> 0:02:41.876 you point out that children are actually just wired differently. 0:02:42.036 --> 0:02:46.036 They're wired to solve a different set of challenges. Right. 0:02:46.476 --> 0:02:50.356 The idea is that there's a difference between exploration and exploitation. 0:02:50.916 --> 0:02:53.196 So exploitation is what we're doing all the time as 0:02:53.236 --> 0:02:55.756 grown ups. We're trying to get resources and find our 0:02:55.796 --> 0:02:58.636 way in the pecking order, and find mates and be 0:02:58.756 --> 0:03:01.076 focused and have plans, all the things that we do 0:03:01.116 --> 0:03:03.916 when we're grown ups. But that's really different from just 0:03:03.956 --> 0:03:06.036 trying to figure out how the world works, trying to 0:03:06.076 --> 0:03:09.116 figure out what makes what happen, What are the possibility 0:03:09.516 --> 0:03:11.676 what are the things that I could do, not necessarily 0:03:11.756 --> 0:03:13.836 the things that I need to do right now to 0:03:13.876 --> 0:03:17.116 get some kind of reward, And that's exploration. So the 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:19.836 idea is that what children are doing is really their 0:03:19.876 --> 0:03:22.956 brains are designed to explore. They're designed to find out 0:03:22.996 --> 0:03:25.556 as much about the world as they can. Not very 0:03:25.596 --> 0:03:28.596 well designed to put on their snowsuits in the morning 0:03:28.636 --> 0:03:33.516 and get to prescull right, but very well designed to 0:03:34.116 --> 0:03:37.236 find out as much as they possibly can about the 0:03:37.236 --> 0:03:39.916 world around them. And if you're thinking about it from 0:03:39.916 --> 0:03:44.596 that perspective, many things that are features from an exploit 0:03:44.716 --> 0:03:48.556 perspective are bugs from an explored perspective, and vice versa. So, 0:03:48.676 --> 0:03:52.596 for example, having very focused attention, that's very good if 0:03:52.636 --> 0:03:54.556 you're a grown up. You want to have focused attention. 0:03:54.636 --> 0:03:56.596 You want to be paying attention to your goals. You 0:03:56.596 --> 0:03:59.196 don't want to be distracted by that little speck of 0:03:59.276 --> 0:04:01.396 dust on the floor. But if what you're trying to 0:04:01.396 --> 0:04:03.836 do is just learn as much as you can, then 0:04:03.876 --> 0:04:07.076 having a much broader focus of attention, paying attention to 0:04:07.116 --> 0:04:09.516 even things that aren't relevant to what you're doing right 0:04:09.556 --> 0:04:14.076 now is going to be a better strategy. Being noisy, 0:04:14.236 --> 0:04:18.236 both literally and metaphorically, doing lots of weird, random stuff 0:04:18.396 --> 0:04:21.556 right that doesn't seem to make sense. That's a real bug. 0:04:21.676 --> 0:04:24.756 If you're trying to be an effective, you know, CEO 0:04:24.876 --> 0:04:27.476 type battle, it's a feature if what you want to 0:04:27.516 --> 0:04:29.316 do is find out as much about what's going on 0:04:29.396 --> 0:04:34.356 around you as possible. Being impulsive and curious and taking risks. 0:04:34.676 --> 0:04:37.676 Those are all things that aren't really a great idea 0:04:37.716 --> 0:04:39.356 if you're just trying to get out of the house, 0:04:39.596 --> 0:04:41.436 but they are really good if you want to learn. 0:04:41.516 --> 0:04:43.956 And all these features of what children are like that 0:04:44.036 --> 0:04:47.396 we might have thought were signs that they were irrational 0:04:47.636 --> 0:04:52.196 or impulsive or just immature, really are exactly the things 0:04:52.236 --> 0:04:53.436 that make them so good at learning. 0:04:53.836 --> 0:04:57.236 Yeah, I love the reinterpretation of bugs as features in 0:04:57.276 --> 0:04:59.796 this case. And you know, you're talking about the walk 0:04:59.836 --> 0:05:03.316 to preschool, and I'm reflecting now, you know what, I've 0:05:03.316 --> 0:05:06.956 taken walks with my nieces and nephews. It is a 0:05:07.036 --> 0:05:10.556 totally different experience than when I for a walk, right, 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:13.916 and in the moment, I actually can get quite impatient 0:05:13.916 --> 0:05:15.636 with them. Hey, guys, we just have to go to 0:05:15.636 --> 0:05:18.516 the supermarket because your mom needed us to pick up milk. 0:05:18.556 --> 0:05:21.756 And this is taking twenty five minutes because you're intrigued 0:05:21.796 --> 0:05:24.516 by every little thing that you see. But I actually 0:05:24.516 --> 0:05:27.556 think you're helping make me more patient with a curious 0:05:27.596 --> 0:05:30.276 set of behaviors that the kids engage in because it 0:05:30.356 --> 0:05:33.716 is engineered towards a more exploratory frame of mind, which 0:05:33.756 --> 0:05:35.396 is very very helpful for our species. 0:05:35.956 --> 0:05:38.396 Yeah, and you know, going for a walk to the 0:05:38.396 --> 0:05:41.156 seven eleven with a four year old, you suddenly realize 0:05:41.196 --> 0:05:44.156 that these four blocks that you've done, And I've had 0:05:44.196 --> 0:05:47.476 this experience recently with my three year old grandson. The 0:05:47.516 --> 0:05:51.596 four blocks that I have walked many many, many many times, 0:05:51.996 --> 0:05:55.316 I hadn't didn't see anything. There were all sorts of 0:05:55.356 --> 0:05:57.676 things to see on those few blocks that I just 0:05:57.676 --> 0:06:01.036 wouldn't notice if I were by myself, but that thelo 0:06:01.076 --> 0:06:05.356 who's my grandson immediately notices and sees and thinks are fascinating. 0:06:06.596 --> 0:06:09.516 Let's talk a bit more about there being a trade 0:06:09.556 --> 0:06:11.956 off between exploration and exploitation. 0:06:12.836 --> 0:06:15.156 So the picture that comes from cognitive science is that 0:06:15.516 --> 0:06:18.436 there are many different kinds of cognitive abilities that we have, 0:06:18.796 --> 0:06:20.996 and not only are they different, but they actually trade 0:06:21.036 --> 0:06:23.756 off against each other. So the things that make you 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:27.116 very good at learning, for example, might really be intention 0:06:27.716 --> 0:06:29.636 with the things that make you really good at acting 0:06:29.956 --> 0:06:33.676 and doing things effectively. So any kind of intelligent system, 0:06:34.076 --> 0:06:36.236 rather than just sort of, you know, dialing up the 0:06:36.276 --> 0:06:39.676 general intelligence knob, is going to have to figure out 0:06:39.716 --> 0:06:42.156 ways of having a kind of division of labor, of 0:06:42.236 --> 0:06:44.596 having trade offs, of figuring out when do you do 0:06:44.716 --> 0:06:46.516 one and when do you do the other, and how 0:06:46.516 --> 0:06:48.916 can you get a system that's capable of doing things 0:06:48.916 --> 0:06:52.556 that are very different and actually intension with each other. 0:06:52.796 --> 0:06:56.956 Mm hmm. You do say that childhood is evolution's way 0:06:56.996 --> 0:07:00.476 of solving for the explore exploit trade off. Tell me 0:07:00.476 --> 0:07:01.436 a bit more about that. 0:07:02.196 --> 0:07:06.476 One of the things that we know about biological intelligent 0:07:06.516 --> 0:07:11.476 beings is that there's this really driking relationship between how 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:15.196 long a period of childhood a species has and how 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:17.516 large a brain it has, how intelligent it is, how 0:07:17.596 --> 0:07:21.556 much it relies on learning. It's a very very general principle, 0:07:21.676 --> 0:07:24.996 but sort of a mysterious one, right, because having a 0:07:25.036 --> 0:07:27.876 long childhood sort of by definition means you're going to 0:07:27.916 --> 0:07:30.036 have a period when you're not going to be effective 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:33.156 and you're going to need resources from other animals. 0:07:33.236 --> 0:07:35.316 Yeah, greater dependency, exactly right. 0:07:35.676 --> 0:07:38.436 And humans are way out on the end of the distribution, 0:07:38.916 --> 0:07:40.876 as it were, on all of these measures. So we 0:07:40.956 --> 0:07:47.036 have the longest childhood by far. Chimpanzee children are producing 0:07:47.076 --> 0:07:49.476 as much food as they're consuming by the time they're seven. 0:07:49.596 --> 0:07:53.196 Oh wow, and humans, even in forger cultures, aren't doing 0:07:53.196 --> 0:07:56.996 that until they're at least fifteen. So that's very puzzling 0:07:57.036 --> 0:07:59.396 from an evolutionary perspective. Why would you have this very 0:07:59.436 --> 0:08:03.476 long period where you not only are you not producing resources, 0:08:03.476 --> 0:08:07.236 but you're depending on other people to produce resources for you. 0:08:07.916 --> 0:08:10.996 And the argument is that when you're trying to resolve 0:08:11.076 --> 0:08:13.916 this explore exploit trade off, a very good way to 0:08:13.956 --> 0:08:16.796 do it is have an early protected period where all 0:08:16.836 --> 0:08:18.556 you have to do is explore. You don't have to 0:08:18.636 --> 0:08:21.716 worry about exploiting because you have caregivers who take care 0:08:21.756 --> 0:08:23.796 of you, and then you can take all those things 0:08:23.876 --> 0:08:25.396 that you learned when you were three or when you 0:08:25.436 --> 0:08:29.476 were four and put them to use as an adult 0:08:29.596 --> 0:08:30.516 in a new environment. 0:08:30.956 --> 0:08:32.796 You said a really critical word there, which is you 0:08:32.836 --> 0:08:38.076 said protected childhood, and it is really important to emphasize 0:08:38.116 --> 0:08:41.156 that kids are only really getting the gains of this 0:08:41.236 --> 0:08:43.916 period of exploration when they do feel that they are 0:08:43.916 --> 0:08:47.196 in these safe spaces where it's okay to take risks, 0:08:47.276 --> 0:08:49.516 where it's okay to experiment with different solutions. 0:08:49.636 --> 0:08:54.196 Right, that's exactly right. If you feel as if you're 0:08:54.236 --> 0:08:58.276 in a protected context, then that actually enables you to 0:08:58.276 --> 0:09:01.236 go out and explore. And there's quite a bit of 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:04.716 work recently. We've just written a paper about this that 0:09:04.836 --> 0:09:08.596 suggests that what is sometimes called adverse experiences like not 0:09:08.916 --> 0:09:12.476 be in that situation of caregiving, right, which is unfortunately 0:09:12.516 --> 0:09:15.636 true for many, many, many children, especially in the United States. 0:09:15.996 --> 0:09:17.956 That one of the effects that has is that it 0:09:18.716 --> 0:09:22.276 tamps down that kind of exploration in that sense of possibility. 0:09:22.716 --> 0:09:26.476 Right. And that's so sad because exploration seems critical for 0:09:26.556 --> 0:09:30.556 these kids. And actually, you said that kids are Humanity's 0:09:30.596 --> 0:09:33.356 research and development department. Can you say a bit more 0:09:33.356 --> 0:09:33.716 about that. 0:09:34.676 --> 0:09:38.196 My basic hypothesis has been the children are like little scientists. 0:09:38.196 --> 0:09:41.076 They're going out in the world, they're doing experiments, they're 0:09:41.076 --> 0:09:43.956 analyzing statistics, and they're doing that in order to figure 0:09:43.956 --> 0:09:46.996 out how the world works. So things that you again 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:49.796 might think of as bugs of the children, like they're 0:09:49.836 --> 0:09:52.876 just trying things out even when they get a bad outcome, 0:09:53.276 --> 0:09:56.636 actually turn out to be features from this exploration perspective. So, 0:09:56.756 --> 0:09:59.876 especially if the world works in an unexpected way, not 0:09:59.956 --> 0:10:01.716 the obvious way, not the way that you would think 0:10:01.836 --> 0:10:06.436 right away, then being willing to experiment, being curious, trying 0:10:06.476 --> 0:10:09.756 things even if it's going to cost you the short run, 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:12.676 actually lets you learn about the world. And that seems 0:10:12.716 --> 0:10:14.396 to be what children are really designed to do. 0:10:14.956 --> 0:10:16.836 Yeah, And actually that reminds me of one of your 0:10:16.836 --> 0:10:19.356 research studies that I think is such a good example 0:10:19.396 --> 0:10:22.956 of this. In the study, you gave kids and adults 0:10:22.996 --> 0:10:26.276 the task of solving a complex logic fuzzle, and the 0:10:26.356 --> 0:10:28.996 kids in the study actually tried out a much wider 0:10:29.116 --> 0:10:32.796 range of possible solutions before committing to a final answer, 0:10:33.356 --> 0:10:35.916 even when trying out more things came at some sort 0:10:35.916 --> 0:10:39.036 of cost or penalty. But adults, on the other hand, 0:10:39.516 --> 0:10:42.556 they stopped trying new solutions as soon as they thought 0:10:42.556 --> 0:10:44.996 they had the right answer, even if they didn't actually 0:10:45.036 --> 0:10:48.156 have it. And you call what adults are doing here 0:10:48.436 --> 0:10:50.956 a learning trap. Can you explain what that is? 0:10:51.556 --> 0:10:54.316 Yeah, Essentially, what happens in a learning trap is that 0:10:54.796 --> 0:10:59.796 you decide that you've figured out how something works, and 0:10:59.876 --> 0:11:02.476 as a result, you don't actually go out and get 0:11:02.516 --> 0:11:04.876 more data. You don't actually go out and get more 0:11:04.916 --> 0:11:08.956 evidence that could prove that you're wrong. And the result 0:11:09.316 --> 0:11:12.276 is that you think that you're doing great. You think 0:11:12.316 --> 0:11:15.316 you've figured out how this thing works, but you've actually 0:11:15.356 --> 0:11:19.276 committed to a much more narrow view of how the 0:11:19.276 --> 0:11:24.756 world works. But often actually finding something new involves a 0:11:24.796 --> 0:11:28.396 measure of risk, right, And what happens is that because 0:11:28.596 --> 0:11:31.476 adults are often sort of overconfident about the fact that 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:35.156 they've actually understood how something works, they won't take the 0:11:35.396 --> 0:11:39.876 risks that would actually let them learn that something's new. Yeah, 0:11:40.036 --> 0:11:42.236 and let me give you an example of a learning 0:11:42.276 --> 0:11:46.316 trap in real life that we think actually is responsible 0:11:46.356 --> 0:11:50.236 for certain kinds of mental health issues. So, for example, 0:11:50.316 --> 0:11:54.556 suppose I'm getting on an airplane. This is actually autobiographical, 0:11:55.036 --> 0:11:57.956 and I have a terrible experience on the airplane. It's, 0:11:58.076 --> 0:12:01.636 you know, there's awful turbulence site, I get a terrible headache, 0:12:01.996 --> 0:12:04.396 and as a result of that, I just refuse to 0:12:04.396 --> 0:12:07.036 get on an airplane ever. Again, that's what happens in 0:12:07.036 --> 0:12:10.836 phobias or anxiety disorders. Now, the problem is if I 0:12:10.876 --> 0:12:13.356 do that, I'm never going to learn that most of 0:12:13.396 --> 0:12:16.556 the time airplane rides are perfectly fine. And my brain 0:12:16.636 --> 0:12:18.556 isn't going to figure out that most of the time 0:12:18.716 --> 0:12:21.356 airplane rides are perfectly fine. And that's one of the 0:12:21.396 --> 0:12:24.836 reasons why when people have anxiety disorders, the solution, which 0:12:24.876 --> 0:12:27.596 seems sort of paradoxical, is actually go out and do 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:30.076 the thing that you're afraid of and then find out that, 0:12:30.276 --> 0:12:33.476 oh no, actually, you know, the snake is not going 0:12:33.516 --> 0:12:35.756 to the snake is not going to bite you, the 0:12:35.796 --> 0:12:37.556 airplane ride is not going to be terrible. 0:12:37.676 --> 0:12:42.196 Yeah, you're talking about how we're encouraged to expose ourself 0:12:42.316 --> 0:12:44.716 to the scary stimulus rather than avoid it. 0:12:45.276 --> 0:12:48.396 Right, And the thought is that childhood is kind of 0:12:48.596 --> 0:12:50.996 lets you get that for free, right. The children are 0:12:51.396 --> 0:12:54.156 the children are trying out new things that could potentially 0:12:54.196 --> 0:12:55.996 be scary all the time, and that helps them to 0:12:56.156 --> 0:13:00.036 escape from these learning traps where you are frightened of 0:13:00.036 --> 0:13:02.676 the outcomes, so you don't try to find out something new, 0:13:02.756 --> 0:13:05.756 which means that you never actually really learn about how 0:13:05.796 --> 0:13:06.676 the world works. 0:13:06.996 --> 0:13:11.076 Yeah. So in terms of everyday life as adults, Obviously 0:13:11.076 --> 0:13:13.596 it makes sense for us to carry more of the 0:13:13.676 --> 0:13:16.756 exploit burden. Right. We have responsibilities in everyday life. We 0:13:16.796 --> 0:13:18.436 have to make money for our families, we have to 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:22.476 feed children, lots lots of tasks, and so I think 0:13:22.676 --> 0:13:25.716 none of us want to go back fully into exploration mode. However, 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:30.076 there are moments, there are times in our lives where 0:13:30.076 --> 0:13:34.196 we really would benefit from a more exploratory mindset. So, 0:13:34.236 --> 0:13:37.876 for example, during creative processes, it's really helpful for us 0:13:37.916 --> 0:13:41.196 to try to embody a childlike state. Do you have 0:13:41.276 --> 0:13:44.676 some tips for how we might cultivate a mindset that 0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:46.916 more closely approximates that of a child's. 0:13:47.756 --> 0:13:50.516 Well, I think we have some ideas, and one is 0:13:50.556 --> 0:13:55.516 this sense of being safe, of not having anything immediately 0:13:56.356 --> 0:14:00.796 riding on your decisions seems to be something that enables 0:14:00.836 --> 0:14:04.476 you to explore more widely. The idea would be, and 0:14:04.516 --> 0:14:08.556 this is something that people frequently do when their brainstorming, 0:14:08.596 --> 0:14:11.116 is to say, look, you can say something that is 0:14:11.156 --> 0:14:14.476 going to be really dumb, or that isn't going to work, 0:14:14.716 --> 0:14:16.396 or that everyone else is going to think is a 0:14:16.396 --> 0:14:19.676 silly idea, But for now, what we're going to do 0:14:19.796 --> 0:14:23.796 is let everyone say those weird things, think those weird, 0:14:23.836 --> 0:14:28.156 strange things. I think another context that makes you more 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:33.356 childlike is something like travel. We're simply placing yourself in 0:14:33.436 --> 0:14:37.476 a new environment that you haven't already mastered. Is a 0:14:37.516 --> 0:14:40.196 way of getting that kind of broader focus as a 0:14:40.236 --> 0:14:44.716 way of giving you an incentive to explore and to learn. 0:14:45.076 --> 0:14:47.756 I'm talking to you actually from New Orleans. I'm here 0:14:47.796 --> 0:14:51.436 for the Big AI Conference, and just this morning I 0:14:51.476 --> 0:14:54.116 was thinking, one of the great pleasures in life is 0:14:54.156 --> 0:14:57.036 being what the French call of flaneur. So if flaneur 0:14:57.156 --> 0:14:58.996 is someone who just goes to a strange city and 0:14:59.036 --> 0:15:02.156 wanders around the strange city, and I was thinking this morning, 0:15:02.756 --> 0:15:04.516 why is that so satisfying? 0:15:04.676 --> 0:15:04.876 Right? 0:15:04.996 --> 0:15:07.996 Why is there such pleasure in just being in a 0:15:08.036 --> 0:15:11.556 new place and wandering around the streets and seeing everything 0:15:11.596 --> 0:15:13.876 that's a little different. I think that's something that really 0:15:13.876 --> 0:15:16.796 puts you in this kind of explore mode. You're not 0:15:17.396 --> 0:15:19.956 trying to get to the high points, You're not trying 0:15:19.996 --> 0:15:23.116 to get to the conference center. You're just wandering and 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:27.636 physically wandering, and wandering in your head. 0:15:27.916 --> 0:15:30.476 Yeah, I mean you mentioned going to new cities and 0:15:31.316 --> 0:15:34.156 thinking also about learning new skills. I think all of 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:38.956 these uncomfortable environments are humbling in a way that's potentially 0:15:39.076 --> 0:15:41.796 very helpful to the adult brain. When we've been placed 0:15:41.836 --> 0:15:44.316 outside of our comfort zone, we have no mastery of 0:15:44.356 --> 0:15:45.836 the skill a hit, or no mastery of how to 0:15:45.836 --> 0:15:49.116 get around the city. It allows us to rely less 0:15:49.116 --> 0:15:52.756 on our priors, less on existing knowledge, and to try. 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:55.236 And I'm just trying to think about what it's doing 0:15:55.276 --> 0:15:58.116 to the mind, but it just seems like it's forcing 0:15:58.156 --> 0:16:00.236 upon us a kind of creativity that day to day 0:16:00.276 --> 0:16:00.756 life might not. 0:16:01.356 --> 0:16:04.396 That's exactly right. I think that's exactly right. There's a 0:16:04.476 --> 0:16:08.556 lot of really nice examples of late life artistic creativity. 0:16:09.876 --> 0:16:12.396 What the artists did is take all the things that 0:16:12.396 --> 0:16:14.756 they were really good at and then set up a 0:16:14.756 --> 0:16:16.876 situation where they can't do that anymore. 0:16:17.076 --> 0:16:18.076 Oh wow, that's awesome. 0:16:18.156 --> 0:16:20.596 Yeah. There's a famous example of the well, the painter 0:16:20.716 --> 0:16:24.996 Bryce Martin actually, who was a wonderful painter, actually strapped 0:16:25.356 --> 0:16:28.836 his paint brushes to his hands so that it was 0:16:28.916 --> 0:16:31.356 much harder to actually put the paint on the canvas. 0:16:31.436 --> 0:16:34.476 And that seemed to enable him to do things and 0:16:34.556 --> 0:16:37.436 try things that he hadn't been able to try before. 0:16:37.956 --> 0:16:41.156 Yeah, it helps us challenge the routine ways in which 0:16:41.156 --> 0:16:45.036 we're used to accomplishing tasks. What a wonderful exercise to 0:16:45.156 --> 0:16:50.276 intentionally put yourself in situations that require innovation from your 0:16:50.276 --> 0:16:51.436 own mind. That's awesome. 0:16:51.916 --> 0:16:53.596 And of course, in some ways it's making you more 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:55.916 like a child, because of course, part of what's happening 0:16:55.916 --> 0:16:58.796 with children is that they're not as good at doing 0:16:58.836 --> 0:17:00.836 things in this kind of accomplished expert way. 0:17:02.036 --> 0:17:05.276 Up next, Alison's share is why gardening is a great 0:17:05.356 --> 0:17:08.796 metaphor for how we should raise children. And good news, 0:17:09.196 --> 0:17:13.796 this approach actually requires less effort from parents. So if 0:17:13.796 --> 0:17:16.436 you're a stressed out caregiver looking for some relief, I 0:17:16.636 --> 0:17:23.276 promise we've got you covered. We'll be back in a 0:17:23.276 --> 0:17:37.556 moment with a slight change of plans. So so far, Elison, 0:17:37.596 --> 0:17:41.556 we've talked about the marvelous ways in which children's brains 0:17:41.556 --> 0:17:45.116 are wired and how they learn things, and you say 0:17:45.196 --> 0:17:48.476 that this has implications for how we parent, and you've 0:17:48.476 --> 0:17:51.436 come up with this very helpful analogy that helps reflect 0:17:51.476 --> 0:17:55.996 two distinct models of parenting, the carpenter and the gardener. 0:17:56.316 --> 0:17:58.596 Do you mind talking about the carpenter and the gardener. 0:17:59.316 --> 0:18:03.716 So a very common way, especially nowadays, that people think 0:18:03.836 --> 0:18:07.316 about being a parent is that it's kind of like 0:18:07.476 --> 0:18:11.036 work or school. So I think especially you know, modern 0:18:11.036 --> 0:18:13.316 middle class parents who have spent a lot of time 0:18:13.356 --> 0:18:15.956 working or going to school, have this picture that if 0:18:15.996 --> 0:18:17.756 you just get the rules right, you know, you just 0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:20.196 get the right kind of skills, then you're going to 0:18:20.236 --> 0:18:22.116 get the right outcome. So if you think about being 0:18:22.156 --> 0:18:24.756 a carpenter, you know, you want to make a chair 0:18:24.836 --> 0:18:27.316 that's a particular shape, and you know, here's the wood 0:18:27.316 --> 0:18:28.676 that I need, and here's what I have to do 0:18:28.756 --> 0:18:32.636 to make that come out a particular way. And people 0:18:32.836 --> 0:18:35.716 often especially now have that as the sort of internal 0:18:35.716 --> 0:18:37.356 model of what it is to be a parent. I 0:18:37.476 --> 0:18:40.396 want a child too is going to Harvard and smart 0:18:40.476 --> 0:18:45.116 and competent and happy and successful and whatever you're listening to. 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:48.276 All the things, have all the things exactly, And if 0:18:48.276 --> 0:18:50.836 I just do the right things, if I just have 0:18:50.916 --> 0:18:53.876 the right techniques and the right tools, I'll be able 0:18:53.916 --> 0:18:56.716 to create this child who has all these properties that 0:18:56.756 --> 0:18:59.716 I want. And the trouble is, that's not how being 0:18:59.716 --> 0:19:02.796 a parent works at all. So if you think back 0:19:02.836 --> 0:19:08.196 to that, relationship between caregiving and exploration. What the caregiver 0:19:08.876 --> 0:19:13.076 can do is to give the child space to try 0:19:13.116 --> 0:19:15.236 lots and less of different things, often things that the 0:19:15.276 --> 0:19:18.796 caregiver couldn't have anticipated. And if you think about a 0:19:18.836 --> 0:19:22.876 garden when you're a gardener, that's really what you're trying 0:19:22.876 --> 0:19:25.756 to do. So a garden is a really complicated ecosystem. 0:19:26.036 --> 0:19:27.956 It can come out in lots of different ways. It 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:31.756 has to respond to the very particular phenomena of the weather, 0:19:32.756 --> 0:19:35.356 the climate, and the geography. 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:35.236 That you're in. 0:19:35.676 --> 0:19:38.876 And a good gardener knows you just can't control what's 0:19:38.876 --> 0:19:40.996 going to happen in the garden, But what you want 0:19:41.036 --> 0:19:48.396 to do is to provide enough richness, enough resources so 0:19:48.516 --> 0:19:51.956 that many different kinds of plants can thrive. And it's 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:56.036 actually a deeper point because what makes say an ecosystem 0:19:56.116 --> 0:19:59.636 like a garden effective is this kind of variability in diversity. 0:19:59.716 --> 0:20:01.716 And we know that that's the thing that makes it robust. 0:20:01.796 --> 0:20:04.316 That's the thing that can make the garden survive even 0:20:04.356 --> 0:20:07.116 though you know one year you have a tremendous amount 0:20:07.116 --> 0:20:09.196 of rain, in the next year you have drought, And 0:20:09.236 --> 0:20:12.836 it's having that possibility of diversity of variability of doing 0:20:12.876 --> 0:20:15.756 things that are different, things that are unexpected, things that 0:20:15.956 --> 0:20:18.156 you know, maybe you don't even want as a parent. 0:20:18.596 --> 0:20:22.196 That's the thing that makes the system robust. 0:20:22.396 --> 0:20:25.636 Yeah, why is it better for parents to be more 0:20:25.716 --> 0:20:26.996 gardeners than carpenters. 0:20:27.396 --> 0:20:30.156 Even if you could be the carpenter, even if you 0:20:30.196 --> 0:20:34.796 could fulfill this carpenter agenda, you'd be sort of undermining 0:20:34.876 --> 0:20:37.396 the whole point of childhood by doing it. But the 0:20:37.436 --> 0:20:40.356 truth is you can't really do it. And the result 0:20:40.516 --> 0:20:43.396 is that parents are in this constant state of frustration 0:20:43.636 --> 0:20:46.356 because they feel as if there should be a guidebook, 0:20:46.356 --> 0:20:49.916 there should be a specific outcome, and that they're failing, 0:20:50.076 --> 0:20:52.316 And so they read more books, so they look at 0:20:52.316 --> 0:20:55.236 more parenting blogs, or they try to make judgments about 0:20:55.236 --> 0:20:57.116 what they should be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. 0:20:57.516 --> 0:21:01.356 And that just makes everybody miserable. It makes everybody anxious. 0:21:01.596 --> 0:21:05.836 It makes parents anxious, it makes children anxious. Whatever its 0:21:05.876 --> 0:21:08.196 long term effects on the children are, in the moment, 0:21:08.356 --> 0:21:12.036 it makes being a parent much more stressful and difficult 0:21:12.076 --> 0:21:14.116 than it should be. And it's not to say that 0:21:14.316 --> 0:21:17.636 parents aren't important. Parents are extremely important, But the things 0:21:17.676 --> 0:21:21.756 that make parents important are in the kind of spontaneous 0:21:21.796 --> 0:21:23.916 things like the fact that they love their children and 0:21:23.956 --> 0:21:27.756 that they put energy into taking care of those children, 0:21:28.236 --> 0:21:30.636 not that they have some kind of special expertise that 0:21:30.676 --> 0:21:32.556 they read in a book or found on a blog 0:21:32.596 --> 0:21:34.796 that they can use to make those children come out better. 0:21:35.516 --> 0:21:37.276 Yeah. And I mean you have struck a chord with 0:21:37.356 --> 0:21:39.916 so many parents right now or anyone who cares for 0:21:39.996 --> 0:21:44.076 children in capturing the anxiety that people feel around this space. 0:21:44.116 --> 0:21:47.236 I mean, with hundreds of thousands of self help books 0:21:47.236 --> 0:21:50.796 around parenting or guides for parenting, it's really overwhelming. And 0:21:50.876 --> 0:21:53.196 on a personal level, I do see so many of 0:21:53.236 --> 0:21:57.556 my friends with kids getting completely wound up over whether 0:21:57.636 --> 0:22:00.956 they're engaging in the right kind of parenting. Was was 0:22:00.956 --> 0:22:03.556 I mindful? Was I this full? Was I that full? 0:22:03.556 --> 0:22:05.876 I mean we're being fed scripts now around how we 0:22:05.916 --> 0:22:08.596 should be engaging with kids, and I really would love 0:22:08.636 --> 0:22:11.316