1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:34,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin, being noisy, both literally and metaphorically, doing lots of weird, 2 00:00:35,156 --> 00:00:38,676 Speaker 1: random stuff right that doesn't seem to make sense, being 3 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:42,836 Speaker 1: impulsive and curious, and taking risks. All these features of 4 00:00:42,916 --> 00:00:44,956 Speaker 1: what children are like that we might have thought were 5 00:00:44,996 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: signs that they were irrational or just immature, really are 6 00:00:50,716 --> 00:00:52,676 Speaker 1: exactly the things that make them so good at learning. 7 00:00:53,236 --> 00:00:57,396 Speaker 2: Alison Gopnik is a developmental psychologist. She spent the last 8 00:00:57,436 --> 00:01:01,036 Speaker 2: few decades studying children's brains and how they learn. She 9 00:01:01,196 --> 00:01:03,836 Speaker 2: says they're the best learners we know of in the universe, 10 00:01:04,316 --> 00:01:06,236 Speaker 2: and that if we can just let kids do their 11 00:01:06,236 --> 00:01:10,716 Speaker 2: thing and not overparent them, actually lead to better results. 12 00:01:11,436 --> 00:01:13,916 Speaker 1: And it's not to say that parents aren't important. Parents 13 00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:17,516 Speaker 1: are extremely important, But the things that make parents important 14 00:01:17,876 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 1: are in the kind of spontaneous things like the fact 15 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:23,916 Speaker 1: that they love their children and that they put energy 16 00:01:23,996 --> 00:01:27,196 Speaker 1: into taking care of those children, not that they have 17 00:01:27,236 --> 00:01:29,236 Speaker 1: some kind of special expertise that they read in a 18 00:01:29,276 --> 00:01:31,436 Speaker 1: book or found on a blog that they can use 19 00:01:31,476 --> 00:01:32,916 Speaker 1: to make those children come out better. 20 00:01:36,036 --> 00:01:39,716 Speaker 2: On today's episode, the Creative Genius of Children and what 21 00:01:39,756 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 2: they can teach us, I'm Maya Shunker and this is 22 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:47,396 Speaker 2: a slight change of plans, a show about who we 23 00:01:47,436 --> 00:01:49,716 Speaker 2: are and who we become in the face of a 24 00:01:49,756 --> 00:02:05,036 Speaker 2: big change. Allison is the author of several acclaimed books, 25 00:02:05,156 --> 00:02:09,556 Speaker 2: including The Philosophical Baby and The Scientist and the crit Work. 26 00:02:09,636 --> 00:02:13,996 Speaker 2: She often refers to children as humanity's research and development department, 27 00:02:14,556 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 2: because they interact with the world like it's one big 28 00:02:16,916 --> 00:02:20,596 Speaker 2: science experiment. It's pretty different from how we as adults 29 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:23,036 Speaker 2: engage with the world, and so I started off by 30 00:02:23,116 --> 00:02:26,876 Speaker 2: asking Alison more about this distinction. I'd love to start 31 00:02:26,876 --> 00:02:30,876 Speaker 2: with the basics, Alison. We know that children's brains are 32 00:02:30,876 --> 00:02:34,116 Speaker 2: different from adult brains. But it's easy to think that 33 00:02:34,196 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 2: children's brains are just immature versions of our brains. But 34 00:02:38,396 --> 00:02:41,876 Speaker 2: you point out that children are actually just wired differently. 35 00:02:42,036 --> 00:02:46,036 Speaker 2: They're wired to solve a different set of challenges. Right. 36 00:02:46,476 --> 00:02:50,356 Speaker 1: The idea is that there's a difference between exploration and exploitation. 37 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:53,196 Speaker 1: So exploitation is what we're doing all the time as 38 00:02:53,236 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 1: grown ups. We're trying to get resources and find our 39 00:02:55,796 --> 00:02:58,636 Speaker 1: way in the pecking order, and find mates and be 40 00:02:58,756 --> 00:03:01,076 Speaker 1: focused and have plans, all the things that we do 41 00:03:01,116 --> 00:03:03,916 Speaker 1: when we're grown ups. But that's really different from just 42 00:03:03,956 --> 00:03:06,036 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how the world works, trying to 43 00:03:06,076 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 1: figure out what makes what happen, What are the possibility 44 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:11,676 Speaker 1: what are the things that I could do, not necessarily 45 00:03:11,756 --> 00:03:13,836 Speaker 1: the things that I need to do right now to 46 00:03:13,876 --> 00:03:17,116 Speaker 1: get some kind of reward, And that's exploration. So the 47 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:19,836 Speaker 1: idea is that what children are doing is really their 48 00:03:19,876 --> 00:03:22,956 Speaker 1: brains are designed to explore. They're designed to find out 49 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 1: as much about the world as they can. Not very 50 00:03:25,596 --> 00:03:28,596 Speaker 1: well designed to put on their snowsuits in the morning 51 00:03:28,636 --> 00:03:33,516 Speaker 1: and get to prescull right, but very well designed to 52 00:03:34,116 --> 00:03:37,236 Speaker 1: find out as much as they possibly can about the 53 00:03:37,236 --> 00:03:39,916 Speaker 1: world around them. And if you're thinking about it from 54 00:03:39,916 --> 00:03:44,596 Speaker 1: that perspective, many things that are features from an exploit 55 00:03:44,716 --> 00:03:48,556 Speaker 1: perspective are bugs from an explored perspective, and vice versa. So, 56 00:03:48,676 --> 00:03:52,596 Speaker 1: for example, having very focused attention, that's very good if 57 00:03:52,636 --> 00:03:54,556 Speaker 1: you're a grown up. You want to have focused attention. 58 00:03:54,636 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 1: You want to be paying attention to your goals. You 59 00:03:56,596 --> 00:03:59,196 Speaker 1: don't want to be distracted by that little speck of 60 00:03:59,276 --> 00:04:01,396 Speaker 1: dust on the floor. But if what you're trying to 61 00:04:01,396 --> 00:04:03,836 Speaker 1: do is just learn as much as you can, then 62 00:04:03,876 --> 00:04:07,076 Speaker 1: having a much broader focus of attention, paying attention to 63 00:04:07,116 --> 00:04:09,516 Speaker 1: even things that aren't relevant to what you're doing right 64 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:14,076 Speaker 1: now is going to be a better strategy. Being noisy, 65 00:04:14,236 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 1: both literally and metaphorically, doing lots of weird, random stuff 66 00:04:18,396 --> 00:04:21,556 Speaker 1: right that doesn't seem to make sense. That's a real bug. 67 00:04:21,676 --> 00:04:24,756 Speaker 1: If you're trying to be an effective, you know, CEO 68 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:27,476 Speaker 1: type battle, it's a feature if what you want to 69 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:29,316 Speaker 1: do is find out as much about what's going on 70 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:34,356 Speaker 1: around you as possible. Being impulsive and curious and taking risks. 71 00:04:34,676 --> 00:04:37,676 Speaker 1: Those are all things that aren't really a great idea 72 00:04:37,716 --> 00:04:39,356 Speaker 1: if you're just trying to get out of the house, 73 00:04:39,596 --> 00:04:41,436 Speaker 1: but they are really good if you want to learn. 74 00:04:41,516 --> 00:04:43,956 Speaker 1: And all these features of what children are like that 75 00:04:44,036 --> 00:04:47,396 Speaker 1: we might have thought were signs that they were irrational 76 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:52,196 Speaker 1: or impulsive or just immature, really are exactly the things 77 00:04:52,236 --> 00:04:53,436 Speaker 1: that make them so good at learning. 78 00:04:53,836 --> 00:04:57,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the reinterpretation of bugs as features in 79 00:04:57,276 --> 00:04:59,796 Speaker 2: this case. And you know, you're talking about the walk 80 00:04:59,836 --> 00:05:03,316 Speaker 2: to preschool, and I'm reflecting now, you know what, I've 81 00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:06,956 Speaker 2: taken walks with my nieces and nephews. It is a 82 00:05:07,036 --> 00:05:10,556 Speaker 2: totally different experience than when I for a walk, right, 83 00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:13,916 Speaker 2: and in the moment, I actually can get quite impatient 84 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:15,636 Speaker 2: with them. Hey, guys, we just have to go to 85 00:05:15,636 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 2: the supermarket because your mom needed us to pick up milk. 86 00:05:18,556 --> 00:05:21,756 Speaker 2: And this is taking twenty five minutes because you're intrigued 87 00:05:21,796 --> 00:05:24,516 Speaker 2: by every little thing that you see. But I actually 88 00:05:24,516 --> 00:05:27,556 Speaker 2: think you're helping make me more patient with a curious 89 00:05:27,596 --> 00:05:30,276 Speaker 2: set of behaviors that the kids engage in because it 90 00:05:30,356 --> 00:05:33,716 Speaker 2: is engineered towards a more exploratory frame of mind, which 91 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:35,396 Speaker 2: is very very helpful for our species. 92 00:05:35,956 --> 00:05:38,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, going for a walk to the 93 00:05:38,396 --> 00:05:41,156 Speaker 1: seven eleven with a four year old, you suddenly realize 94 00:05:41,196 --> 00:05:44,156 Speaker 1: that these four blocks that you've done, And I've had 95 00:05:44,196 --> 00:05:47,476 Speaker 1: this experience recently with my three year old grandson. The 96 00:05:47,516 --> 00:05:51,596 Speaker 1: four blocks that I have walked many many, many many times, 97 00:05:51,996 --> 00:05:55,316 Speaker 1: I hadn't didn't see anything. There were all sorts of 98 00:05:55,356 --> 00:05:57,676 Speaker 1: things to see on those few blocks that I just 99 00:05:57,676 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 1: wouldn't notice if I were by myself, but that thelo 100 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:05,356 Speaker 1: who's my grandson immediately notices and sees and thinks are fascinating. 101 00:06:06,596 --> 00:06:09,516 Speaker 2: Let's talk a bit more about there being a trade 102 00:06:09,556 --> 00:06:11,956 Speaker 2: off between exploration and exploitation. 103 00:06:12,836 --> 00:06:15,156 Speaker 1: So the picture that comes from cognitive science is that 104 00:06:15,516 --> 00:06:18,436 Speaker 1: there are many different kinds of cognitive abilities that we have, 105 00:06:18,796 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 1: and not only are they different, but they actually trade 106 00:06:21,036 --> 00:06:23,756 Speaker 1: off against each other. So the things that make you 107 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:27,116 Speaker 1: very good at learning, for example, might really be intention 108 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:29,636 Speaker 1: with the things that make you really good at acting 109 00:06:29,956 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 1: and doing things effectively. So any kind of intelligent system, 110 00:06:34,076 --> 00:06:36,236 Speaker 1: rather than just sort of, you know, dialing up the 111 00:06:36,276 --> 00:06:39,676 Speaker 1: general intelligence knob, is going to have to figure out 112 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: ways of having a kind of division of labor, of 113 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:44,596 Speaker 1: having trade offs, of figuring out when do you do 114 00:06:44,716 --> 00:06:46,516 Speaker 1: one and when do you do the other, and how 115 00:06:46,516 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 1: can you get a system that's capable of doing things 116 00:06:48,916 --> 00:06:52,556 Speaker 1: that are very different and actually intension with each other. 117 00:06:52,796 --> 00:06:56,956 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. You do say that childhood is evolution's way 118 00:06:56,996 --> 00:07:00,476 Speaker 2: of solving for the explore exploit trade off. Tell me 119 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 2: a bit more about that. 120 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:06,476 Speaker 1: One of the things that we know about biological intelligent 121 00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:11,476 Speaker 1: beings is that there's this really driking relationship between how 122 00:07:11,556 --> 00:07:15,196 Speaker 1: long a period of childhood a species has and how 123 00:07:15,276 --> 00:07:17,516 Speaker 1: large a brain it has, how intelligent it is, how 124 00:07:17,596 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 1: much it relies on learning. It's a very very general principle, 125 00:07:21,676 --> 00:07:24,996 Speaker 1: but sort of a mysterious one, right, because having a 126 00:07:25,036 --> 00:07:27,876 Speaker 1: long childhood sort of by definition means you're going to 127 00:07:27,916 --> 00:07:30,036 Speaker 1: have a period when you're not going to be effective 128 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:33,156 Speaker 1: and you're going to need resources from other animals. 129 00:07:33,236 --> 00:07:35,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, greater dependency, exactly right. 130 00:07:35,676 --> 00:07:38,436 Speaker 1: And humans are way out on the end of the distribution, 131 00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:40,876 Speaker 1: as it were, on all of these measures. So we 132 00:07:40,956 --> 00:07:47,036 Speaker 1: have the longest childhood by far. Chimpanzee children are producing 133 00:07:47,076 --> 00:07:49,476 Speaker 1: as much food as they're consuming by the time they're seven. 134 00:07:49,596 --> 00:07:53,196 Speaker 1: Oh wow, and humans, even in forger cultures, aren't doing 135 00:07:53,196 --> 00:07:56,996 Speaker 1: that until they're at least fifteen. So that's very puzzling 136 00:07:57,036 --> 00:07:59,396 Speaker 1: from an evolutionary perspective. Why would you have this very 137 00:07:59,436 --> 00:08:03,476 Speaker 1: long period where you not only are you not producing resources, 138 00:08:03,476 --> 00:08:07,236 Speaker 1: but you're depending on other people to produce resources for you. 139 00:08:07,916 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 1: And the argument is that when you're trying to resolve 140 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:13,916 Speaker 1: this explore exploit trade off, a very good way to 141 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 1: do it is have an early protected period where all 142 00:08:16,836 --> 00:08:18,556 Speaker 1: you have to do is explore. You don't have to 143 00:08:18,636 --> 00:08:21,716 Speaker 1: worry about exploiting because you have caregivers who take care 144 00:08:21,756 --> 00:08:23,796 Speaker 1: of you, and then you can take all those things 145 00:08:23,876 --> 00:08:25,396 Speaker 1: that you learned when you were three or when you 146 00:08:25,436 --> 00:08:29,476 Speaker 1: were four and put them to use as an adult 147 00:08:29,596 --> 00:08:30,516 Speaker 1: in a new environment. 148 00:08:30,956 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 2: You said a really critical word there, which is you 149 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 2: said protected childhood, and it is really important to emphasize 150 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:41,156 Speaker 2: that kids are only really getting the gains of this 151 00:08:41,236 --> 00:08:43,916 Speaker 2: period of exploration when they do feel that they are 152 00:08:43,916 --> 00:08:47,196 Speaker 2: in these safe spaces where it's okay to take risks, 153 00:08:47,276 --> 00:08:49,516 Speaker 2: where it's okay to experiment with different solutions. 154 00:08:49,636 --> 00:08:54,196 Speaker 1: Right, that's exactly right. If you feel as if you're 155 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:58,276 Speaker 1: in a protected context, then that actually enables you to 156 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:01,236 Speaker 1: go out and explore. And there's quite a bit of 157 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:04,716 Speaker 1: work recently. We've just written a paper about this that 158 00:09:04,836 --> 00:09:08,596 Speaker 1: suggests that what is sometimes called adverse experiences like not 159 00:09:08,916 --> 00:09:12,476 Speaker 1: be in that situation of caregiving, right, which is unfortunately 160 00:09:12,516 --> 00:09:15,636 Speaker 1: true for many, many, many children, especially in the United States. 161 00:09:15,996 --> 00:09:17,956 Speaker 1: That one of the effects that has is that it 162 00:09:18,716 --> 00:09:22,276 Speaker 1: tamps down that kind of exploration in that sense of possibility. 163 00:09:22,716 --> 00:09:26,476 Speaker 2: Right. And that's so sad because exploration seems critical for 164 00:09:26,556 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 2: these kids. And actually, you said that kids are Humanity's 165 00:09:30,596 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 2: research and development department. Can you say a bit more 166 00:09:33,356 --> 00:09:33,716 Speaker 2: about that. 167 00:09:34,676 --> 00:09:38,196 Speaker 1: My basic hypothesis has been the children are like little scientists. 168 00:09:38,196 --> 00:09:41,076 Speaker 1: They're going out in the world, they're doing experiments, they're 169 00:09:41,076 --> 00:09:43,956 Speaker 1: analyzing statistics, and they're doing that in order to figure 170 00:09:43,956 --> 00:09:46,996 Speaker 1: out how the world works. So things that you again 171 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:49,796 Speaker 1: might think of as bugs of the children, like they're 172 00:09:49,836 --> 00:09:52,876 Speaker 1: just trying things out even when they get a bad outcome, 173 00:09:53,276 --> 00:09:56,636 Speaker 1: actually turn out to be features from this exploration perspective. So, 174 00:09:56,756 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 1: especially if the world works in an unexpected way, not 175 00:09:59,956 --> 00:10:01,716 Speaker 1: the obvious way, not the way that you would think 176 00:10:01,836 --> 00:10:06,436 Speaker 1: right away, then being willing to experiment, being curious, trying 177 00:10:06,476 --> 00:10:09,756 Speaker 1: things even if it's going to cost you the short run, 178 00:10:09,956 --> 00:10:12,676 Speaker 1: actually lets you learn about the world. And that seems 179 00:10:12,716 --> 00:10:14,396 Speaker 1: to be what children are really designed to do. 180 00:10:14,956 --> 00:10:16,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, And actually that reminds me of one of your 181 00:10:16,836 --> 00:10:19,356 Speaker 2: research studies that I think is such a good example 182 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:22,956 Speaker 2: of this. In the study, you gave kids and adults 183 00:10:22,996 --> 00:10:26,276 Speaker 2: the task of solving a complex logic fuzzle, and the 184 00:10:26,356 --> 00:10:28,996 Speaker 2: kids in the study actually tried out a much wider 185 00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:32,796 Speaker 2: range of possible solutions before committing to a final answer, 186 00:10:33,356 --> 00:10:35,916 Speaker 2: even when trying out more things came at some sort 187 00:10:35,916 --> 00:10:39,036 Speaker 2: of cost or penalty. But adults, on the other hand, 188 00:10:39,516 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 2: they stopped trying new solutions as soon as they thought 189 00:10:42,556 --> 00:10:44,996 Speaker 2: they had the right answer, even if they didn't actually 190 00:10:45,036 --> 00:10:48,156 Speaker 2: have it. And you call what adults are doing here 191 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:50,956 Speaker 2: a learning trap. Can you explain what that is? 192 00:10:51,556 --> 00:10:54,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, Essentially, what happens in a learning trap is that 193 00:10:54,796 --> 00:10:59,796 Speaker 1: you decide that you've figured out how something works, and 194 00:10:59,876 --> 00:11:02,476 Speaker 1: as a result, you don't actually go out and get 195 00:11:02,516 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 1: more data. You don't actually go out and get more 196 00:11:04,916 --> 00:11:08,956 Speaker 1: evidence that could prove that you're wrong. And the result 197 00:11:09,316 --> 00:11:12,276 Speaker 1: is that you think that you're doing great. You think 198 00:11:12,316 --> 00:11:15,316 Speaker 1: you've figured out how this thing works, but you've actually 199 00:11:15,356 --> 00:11:19,276 Speaker 1: committed to a much more narrow view of how the 200 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 1: world works. But often actually finding something new involves a 201 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:28,396 Speaker 1: measure of risk, right, And what happens is that because 202 00:11:28,596 --> 00:11:31,476 Speaker 1: adults are often sort of overconfident about the fact that 203 00:11:31,476 --> 00:11:35,156 Speaker 1: they've actually understood how something works, they won't take the 204 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:39,876 Speaker 1: risks that would actually let them learn that something's new. Yeah, 205 00:11:40,036 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 1: and let me give you an example of a learning 206 00:11:42,276 --> 00:11:46,316 Speaker 1: trap in real life that we think actually is responsible 207 00:11:46,356 --> 00:11:50,236 Speaker 1: for certain kinds of mental health issues. So, for example, 208 00:11:50,316 --> 00:11:54,556 Speaker 1: suppose I'm getting on an airplane. This is actually autobiographical, 209 00:11:55,036 --> 00:11:57,956 Speaker 1: and I have a terrible experience on the airplane. It's, 210 00:11:58,076 --> 00:12:01,636 Speaker 1: you know, there's awful turbulence site, I get a terrible headache, 211 00:12:01,996 --> 00:12:04,396 Speaker 1: and as a result of that, I just refuse to 212 00:12:04,396 --> 00:12:07,036 Speaker 1: get on an airplane ever. Again, that's what happens in 213 00:12:07,036 --> 00:12:10,836 Speaker 1: phobias or anxiety disorders. Now, the problem is if I 214 00:12:10,876 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: do that, I'm never going to learn that most of 215 00:12:13,396 --> 00:12:16,556 Speaker 1: the time airplane rides are perfectly fine. And my brain 216 00:12:16,636 --> 00:12:18,556 Speaker 1: isn't going to figure out that most of the time 217 00:12:18,716 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 1: airplane rides are perfectly fine. And that's one of the 218 00:12:21,396 --> 00:12:24,836 Speaker 1: reasons why when people have anxiety disorders, the solution, which 219 00:12:24,876 --> 00:12:27,596 Speaker 1: seems sort of paradoxical, is actually go out and do 220 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:30,076 Speaker 1: the thing that you're afraid of and then find out that, 221 00:12:30,276 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 1: oh no, actually, you know, the snake is not going 222 00:12:33,516 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 1: to the snake is not going to bite you, the 223 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:37,556 Speaker 1: airplane ride is not going to be terrible. 224 00:12:37,676 --> 00:12:42,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're talking about how we're encouraged to expose ourself 225 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:44,716 Speaker 2: to the scary stimulus rather than avoid it. 226 00:12:45,276 --> 00:12:48,396 Speaker 1: Right, And the thought is that childhood is kind of 227 00:12:48,596 --> 00:12:50,996 Speaker 1: lets you get that for free, right. The children are 228 00:12:51,396 --> 00:12:54,156 Speaker 1: the children are trying out new things that could potentially 229 00:12:54,196 --> 00:12:55,996 Speaker 1: be scary all the time, and that helps them to 230 00:12:56,156 --> 00:13:00,036 Speaker 1: escape from these learning traps where you are frightened of 231 00:13:00,036 --> 00:13:02,676 Speaker 1: the outcomes, so you don't try to find out something new, 232 00:13:02,756 --> 00:13:05,756 Speaker 1: which means that you never actually really learn about how 233 00:13:05,796 --> 00:13:06,676 Speaker 1: the world works. 234 00:13:06,996 --> 00:13:11,076 Speaker 2: Yeah. So in terms of everyday life as adults, Obviously 235 00:13:11,076 --> 00:13:13,596 Speaker 2: it makes sense for us to carry more of the 236 00:13:13,676 --> 00:13:16,756 Speaker 2: exploit burden. Right. We have responsibilities in everyday life. We 237 00:13:16,796 --> 00:13:18,436 Speaker 2: have to make money for our families, we have to 238 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:22,476 Speaker 2: feed children, lots lots of tasks, and so I think 239 00:13:22,676 --> 00:13:25,716 Speaker 2: none of us want to go back fully into exploration mode. However, 240 00:13:26,356 --> 00:13:30,076 Speaker 2: there are moments, there are times in our lives where 241 00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:34,196 Speaker 2: we really would benefit from a more exploratory mindset. So, 242 00:13:34,236 --> 00:13:37,876 Speaker 2: for example, during creative processes, it's really helpful for us 243 00:13:37,916 --> 00:13:41,196 Speaker 2: to try to embody a childlike state. Do you have 244 00:13:41,276 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 2: some tips for how we might cultivate a mindset that 245 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:46,916 Speaker 2: more closely approximates that of a child's. 246 00:13:47,756 --> 00:13:50,516 Speaker 1: Well, I think we have some ideas, and one is 247 00:13:50,556 --> 00:13:55,516 Speaker 1: this sense of being safe, of not having anything immediately 248 00:13:56,356 --> 00:14:00,796 Speaker 1: riding on your decisions seems to be something that enables 249 00:14:00,836 --> 00:14:04,476 Speaker 1: you to explore more widely. The idea would be, and 250 00:14:04,516 --> 00:14:08,556 Speaker 1: this is something that people frequently do when their brainstorming, 251 00:14:08,596 --> 00:14:11,116 Speaker 1: is to say, look, you can say something that is 252 00:14:11,156 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 1: going to be really dumb, or that isn't going to work, 253 00:14:14,716 --> 00:14:16,396 Speaker 1: or that everyone else is going to think is a 254 00:14:16,396 --> 00:14:19,676 Speaker 1: silly idea, But for now, what we're going to do 255 00:14:19,796 --> 00:14:23,796 Speaker 1: is let everyone say those weird things, think those weird, 256 00:14:23,836 --> 00:14:28,156 Speaker 1: strange things. I think another context that makes you more 257 00:14:28,836 --> 00:14:33,356 Speaker 1: childlike is something like travel. We're simply placing yourself in 258 00:14:33,436 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 1: a new environment that you haven't already mastered. Is a 259 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:40,196 Speaker 1: way of getting that kind of broader focus as a 260 00:14:40,236 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 1: way of giving you an incentive to explore and to learn. 261 00:14:45,076 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 1: I'm talking to you actually from New Orleans. I'm here 262 00:14:47,796 --> 00:14:51,436 Speaker 1: for the Big AI Conference, and just this morning I 263 00:14:51,476 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 1: was thinking, one of the great pleasures in life is 264 00:14:54,156 --> 00:14:57,036 Speaker 1: being what the French call of flaneur. So if flaneur 265 00:14:57,156 --> 00:14:58,996 Speaker 1: is someone who just goes to a strange city and 266 00:14:59,036 --> 00:15:02,156 Speaker 1: wanders around the strange city, and I was thinking this morning, 267 00:15:02,756 --> 00:15:04,516 Speaker 1: why is that so satisfying? 268 00:15:04,676 --> 00:15:04,876 Speaker 2: Right? 269 00:15:04,996 --> 00:15:07,996 Speaker 1: Why is there such pleasure in just being in a 270 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:11,556 Speaker 1: new place and wandering around the streets and seeing everything 271 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:13,876 Speaker 1: that's a little different. I think that's something that really 272 00:15:13,876 --> 00:15:16,796 Speaker 1: puts you in this kind of explore mode. You're not 273 00:15:17,396 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 1: trying to get to the high points, You're not trying 274 00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:23,116 Speaker 1: to get to the conference center. You're just wandering and 275 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:27,636 Speaker 1: physically wandering, and wandering in your head. 276 00:15:27,916 --> 00:15:30,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you mentioned going to new cities and 277 00:15:31,316 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 2: thinking also about learning new skills. I think all of 278 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 2: these uncomfortable environments are humbling in a way that's potentially 279 00:15:39,076 --> 00:15:41,796 Speaker 2: very helpful to the adult brain. When we've been placed 280 00:15:41,836 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 2: outside of our comfort zone, we have no mastery of 281 00:15:44,356 --> 00:15:45,836 Speaker 2: the skill a hit, or no mastery of how to 282 00:15:45,836 --> 00:15:49,116 Speaker 2: get around the city. It allows us to rely less 283 00:15:49,116 --> 00:15:52,756 Speaker 2: on our priors, less on existing knowledge, and to try. 284 00:15:52,796 --> 00:15:55,236 Speaker 2: And I'm just trying to think about what it's doing 285 00:15:55,276 --> 00:15:58,116 Speaker 2: to the mind, but it just seems like it's forcing 286 00:15:58,156 --> 00:16:00,236 Speaker 2: upon us a kind of creativity that day to day 287 00:16:00,276 --> 00:16:00,756 Speaker 2: life might not. 288 00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. I think that's exactly right. There's a 289 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:08,556 Speaker 1: lot of really nice examples of late life artistic creativity. 290 00:16:09,876 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 1: What the artists did is take all the things that 291 00:16:12,396 --> 00:16:14,756 Speaker 1: they were really good at and then set up a 292 00:16:14,756 --> 00:16:16,876 Speaker 1: situation where they can't do that anymore. 293 00:16:17,076 --> 00:16:18,076 Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's awesome. 294 00:16:18,156 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a famous example of the well, the painter 295 00:16:20,716 --> 00:16:24,996 Speaker 1: Bryce Martin actually, who was a wonderful painter, actually strapped 296 00:16:25,356 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: his paint brushes to his hands so that it was 297 00:16:28,916 --> 00:16:31,356 Speaker 1: much harder to actually put the paint on the canvas. 298 00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:34,476 Speaker 1: And that seemed to enable him to do things and 299 00:16:34,556 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 1: try things that he hadn't been able to try before. 300 00:16:37,956 --> 00:16:41,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, it helps us challenge the routine ways in which 301 00:16:41,156 --> 00:16:45,036 Speaker 2: we're used to accomplishing tasks. What a wonderful exercise to 302 00:16:45,156 --> 00:16:50,276 Speaker 2: intentionally put yourself in situations that require innovation from your 303 00:16:50,276 --> 00:16:51,436 Speaker 2: own mind. That's awesome. 304 00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 1: And of course, in some ways it's making you more 305 00:16:53,636 --> 00:16:55,916 Speaker 1: like a child, because of course, part of what's happening 306 00:16:55,916 --> 00:16:58,796 Speaker 1: with children is that they're not as good at doing 307 00:16:58,836 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 1: things in this kind of accomplished expert way. 308 00:17:02,036 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 2: Up next, Alison's share is why gardening is a great 309 00:17:05,356 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 2: metaphor for how we should raise children. And good news, 310 00:17:09,196 --> 00:17:13,796 Speaker 2: this approach actually requires less effort from parents. So if 311 00:17:13,796 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 2: you're a stressed out caregiver looking for some relief, I 312 00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 2: promise we've got you covered. We'll be back in a 313 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:37,556 Speaker 2: moment with a slight change of plans. So so far, Elison, 314 00:17:37,596 --> 00:17:41,556 Speaker 2: we've talked about the marvelous ways in which children's brains 315 00:17:41,556 --> 00:17:45,116 Speaker 2: are wired and how they learn things, and you say 316 00:17:45,196 --> 00:17:48,476 Speaker 2: that this has implications for how we parent, and you've 317 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:51,436 Speaker 2: come up with this very helpful analogy that helps reflect 318 00:17:51,476 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 2: two distinct models of parenting, the carpenter and the gardener. 319 00:17:56,316 --> 00:17:58,596 Speaker 2: Do you mind talking about the carpenter and the gardener. 320 00:17:59,316 --> 00:18:03,716 Speaker 1: So a very common way, especially nowadays, that people think 321 00:18:03,836 --> 00:18:07,316 Speaker 1: about being a parent is that it's kind of like 322 00:18:07,476 --> 00:18:11,036 Speaker 1: work or school. So I think especially you know, modern 323 00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:13,316 Speaker 1: middle class parents who have spent a lot of time 324 00:18:13,356 --> 00:18:15,956 Speaker 1: working or going to school, have this picture that if 325 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:17,756 Speaker 1: you just get the rules right, you know, you just 326 00:18:17,836 --> 00:18:20,196 Speaker 1: get the right kind of skills, then you're going to 327 00:18:20,236 --> 00:18:22,116 Speaker 1: get the right outcome. So if you think about being 328 00:18:22,156 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 1: a carpenter, you know, you want to make a chair 329 00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:27,316 Speaker 1: that's a particular shape, and you know, here's the wood 330 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 1: that I need, and here's what I have to do 331 00:18:28,756 --> 00:18:32,636 Speaker 1: to make that come out a particular way. And people 332 00:18:32,836 --> 00:18:35,716 Speaker 1: often especially now have that as the sort of internal 333 00:18:35,716 --> 00:18:37,356 Speaker 1: model of what it is to be a parent. I 334 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:40,396 Speaker 1: want a child too is going to Harvard and smart 335 00:18:40,476 --> 00:18:45,116 Speaker 1: and competent and happy and successful and whatever you're listening to. 336 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:48,276 Speaker 1: All the things, have all the things exactly, And if 337 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:50,836 Speaker 1: I just do the right things, if I just have 338 00:18:50,916 --> 00:18:53,876 Speaker 1: the right techniques and the right tools, I'll be able 339 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:56,716 Speaker 1: to create this child who has all these properties that 340 00:18:56,756 --> 00:18:59,716 Speaker 1: I want. And the trouble is, that's not how being 341 00:18:59,716 --> 00:19:02,796 Speaker 1: a parent works at all. So if you think back 342 00:19:02,836 --> 00:19:08,196 Speaker 1: to that, relationship between caregiving and exploration. What the caregiver 343 00:19:08,876 --> 00:19:13,076 Speaker 1: can do is to give the child space to try 344 00:19:13,116 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 1: lots and less of different things, often things that the 345 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 1: caregiver couldn't have anticipated. And if you think about a 346 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:22,876 Speaker 1: garden when you're a gardener, that's really what you're trying 347 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:25,756 Speaker 1: to do. So a garden is a really complicated ecosystem. 348 00:19:26,036 --> 00:19:27,956 Speaker 1: It can come out in lots of different ways. It 349 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:31,756 Speaker 1: has to respond to the very particular phenomena of the weather, 350 00:19:32,756 --> 00:19:35,356 Speaker 1: the climate, and the geography. 351 00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:35,236 Speaker 2: That you're in. 352 00:19:35,676 --> 00:19:38,876 Speaker 1: And a good gardener knows you just can't control what's 353 00:19:38,876 --> 00:19:40,996 Speaker 1: going to happen in the garden, But what you want 354 00:19:41,036 --> 00:19:48,396 Speaker 1: to do is to provide enough richness, enough resources so 355 00:19:48,516 --> 00:19:51,956 Speaker 1: that many different kinds of plants can thrive. And it's 356 00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:56,036 Speaker 1: actually a deeper point because what makes say an ecosystem 357 00:19:56,116 --> 00:19:59,636 Speaker 1: like a garden effective is this kind of variability in diversity. 358 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:01,716 Speaker 1: And we know that that's the thing that makes it robust. 359 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:04,316 Speaker 1: That's the thing that can make the garden survive even 360 00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:07,116 Speaker 1: though you know one year you have a tremendous amount 361 00:20:07,116 --> 00:20:09,196 Speaker 1: of rain, in the next year you have drought, And 362 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:12,836 Speaker 1: it's having that possibility of diversity of variability of doing 363 00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:15,756 Speaker 1: things that are different, things that are unexpected, things that 364 00:20:15,956 --> 00:20:18,156 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you don't even want as a parent. 365 00:20:18,596 --> 00:20:22,196 Speaker 1: That's the thing that makes the system robust. 366 00:20:22,396 --> 00:20:25,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, why is it better for parents to be more 367 00:20:25,716 --> 00:20:26,996 Speaker 2: gardeners than carpenters. 368 00:20:27,396 --> 00:20:30,156 Speaker 1: Even if you could be the carpenter, even if you 369 00:20:30,196 --> 00:20:34,796 Speaker 1: could fulfill this carpenter agenda, you'd be sort of undermining 370 00:20:34,876 --> 00:20:37,396 Speaker 1: the whole point of childhood by doing it. But the 371 00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:40,356 Speaker 1: truth is you can't really do it. And the result 372 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:43,396 Speaker 1: is that parents are in this constant state of frustration 373 00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:46,356 Speaker 1: because they feel as if there should be a guidebook, 374 00:20:46,356 --> 00:20:49,916 Speaker 1: there should be a specific outcome, and that they're failing, 375 00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:52,316 Speaker 1: And so they read more books, so they look at 376 00:20:52,316 --> 00:20:55,236 Speaker 1: more parenting blogs, or they try to make judgments about 377 00:20:55,236 --> 00:20:57,116 Speaker 1: what they should be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. 378 00:20:57,516 --> 00:21:01,356 Speaker 1: And that just makes everybody miserable. It makes everybody anxious. 379 00:21:01,596 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 1: It makes parents anxious, it makes children anxious. Whatever its 380 00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:08,196 Speaker 1: long term effects on the children are, in the moment, 381 00:21:08,356 --> 00:21:12,036 Speaker 1: it makes being a parent much more stressful and difficult 382 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:14,116 Speaker 1: than it should be. And it's not to say that 383 00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:17,636 Speaker 1: parents aren't important. Parents are extremely important, But the things 384 00:21:17,676 --> 00:21:21,756 Speaker 1: that make parents important are in the kind of spontaneous 385 00:21:21,796 --> 00:21:23,916 Speaker 1: things like the fact that they love their children and 386 00:21:23,956 --> 00:21:27,756 Speaker 1: that they put energy into taking care of those children, 387 00:21:28,236 --> 00:21:30,636 Speaker 1: not that they have some kind of special expertise that 388 00:21:30,676 --> 00:21:32,556 Speaker 1: they read in a book or found on a blog 389 00:21:32,596 --> 00:21:34,796 Speaker 1: that they can use to make those children come out better. 390 00:21:35,516 --> 00:21:37,276 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I mean you have struck a chord with 391 00:21:37,356 --> 00:21:39,916 Speaker 2: so many parents right now or anyone who cares for 392 00:21:39,996 --> 00:21:44,076 Speaker 2: children in capturing the anxiety that people feel around this space. 393 00:21:44,116 --> 00:21:47,236 Speaker 2: I mean, with hundreds of thousands of self help books 394 00:21:47,236 --> 00:21:50,796 Speaker 2: around parenting or guides for parenting, it's really overwhelming. And 395 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:53,196 Speaker 2: on a personal level, I do see so many of 396 00:21:53,236 --> 00:21:57,556 Speaker 2: my friends with kids getting completely wound up over whether 397 00:21:57,636 --> 00:22:00,956 Speaker 2: they're engaging in the right kind of parenting. Was was 398 00:22:00,956 --> 00:22:03,556 Speaker 2: I mindful? Was I this full? Was I that full? 399 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:05,876 Speaker 2: I mean we're being fed scripts now around how we 400 00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:08,596 Speaker 2: should be engaging with kids, and I really would love 401 00:22:08,636 --> 00:22:11,316 Speaker 2: to release the pressure valve for them just a little 402 00:22:11,356 --> 00:22:14,116 Speaker 2: bit right in this moment. What are the types of 403 00:22:14,196 --> 00:22:17,796 Speaker 2: things that you see parents stressing about that the empirical 404 00:22:17,836 --> 00:22:20,916 Speaker 2: research shows just don't make a difference when it comes 405 00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:21,836 Speaker 2: to the kids development. 406 00:22:22,236 --> 00:22:26,236 Speaker 1: So there's a kind of paradox because we know a 407 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:28,836 Speaker 1: lot about how important parents are, because we know that, 408 00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:32,156 Speaker 1: as I say, the large number of children in a 409 00:22:32,196 --> 00:22:35,796 Speaker 1: place like the United States who don't have good caregiving, 410 00:22:35,876 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 1: who don't have parents who are able to take care 411 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:40,276 Speaker 1: of them, because the parents are stressed, because the parents 412 00:22:40,276 --> 00:22:44,116 Speaker 1: aren't there, because the parents are or under other kinds 413 00:22:44,116 --> 00:22:46,596 Speaker 1: of pressure, they do really suffer, and we know that 414 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:49,676 Speaker 1: they suffer in the long run. But the things that 415 00:22:50,676 --> 00:22:53,996 Speaker 1: typical middle class parents are stressing about, like exactly how 416 00:22:53,996 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 1: should you feed your child or exactly what kind of 417 00:22:57,556 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: sleep pattern should the child have, there's no evidence that 418 00:23:01,316 --> 00:23:04,436 Speaker 1: those kinds of decisions have effects in the long run. 419 00:23:05,036 --> 00:23:07,316 Speaker 1: And in some ways, it's almost like the things that 420 00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:10,236 Speaker 1: you are sitting there and consciously trying to decide about, 421 00:23:10,236 --> 00:23:11,996 Speaker 1: should I do it this way? Do it that way? 422 00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:16,916 Speaker 1: You know, do you have the baby face forward or 423 00:23:16,956 --> 00:23:20,556 Speaker 1: face backwards in their stroller? Do you sleep train or 424 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:24,396 Speaker 1: do you have the baby sleeping with you? Almost by definition, 425 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:25,916 Speaker 1: those are not the things that are going to have 426 00:23:25,956 --> 00:23:28,116 Speaker 1: the long term effects. And the things that will have 427 00:23:28,156 --> 00:23:32,156 Speaker 1: long term effects are whether you love the child and 428 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:35,236 Speaker 1: have resources to take care of the child, and whether 429 00:23:35,276 --> 00:23:37,036 Speaker 1: there are other people who love the child and have 430 00:23:37,116 --> 00:23:38,596 Speaker 1: resources to take care of the child. 431 00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:41,756 Speaker 2: And are you finding that to be true even with 432 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:45,076 Speaker 2: pedagogical approaches with kids. So the way that we try 433 00:23:45,076 --> 00:23:49,196 Speaker 2: to teach kids certain skills, like what I think, what 434 00:23:49,236 --> 00:23:50,996 Speaker 2: I'm interested in here is when I think about so 435 00:23:51,036 --> 00:23:52,356 Speaker 2: I used to be a violinist, and when I think 436 00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 2: about how I learned the violin, it was exclusively through imitation. 437 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:58,276 Speaker 2: I do you know how to reachcheat music? I didn't 438 00:23:58,276 --> 00:24:00,316 Speaker 2: know any of the relevant technique. I just watched my 439 00:24:00,396 --> 00:24:02,916 Speaker 2: teacher and I imitated. And at the time it was 440 00:24:02,996 --> 00:24:06,196 Speaker 2: considered blasphemous. This was the way that I'd got about 441 00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:10,476 Speaker 2: learning music. It was so unstructured. So undis that in 442 00:24:10,556 --> 00:24:13,516 Speaker 2: reading your book it allowed me to see my learning 443 00:24:13,556 --> 00:24:16,396 Speaker 2: of music through a different lens, which is actually maybe 444 00:24:16,436 --> 00:24:18,596 Speaker 2: that was a terrific way for me to learn as 445 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:19,396 Speaker 2: a six year old. 446 00:24:19,436 --> 00:24:22,516 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean this is another one of these ironies, 447 00:24:22,556 --> 00:24:27,556 Speaker 1: which is that children are learning a tremendous amount just 448 00:24:27,756 --> 00:24:30,476 Speaker 1: by observing what's going on around them, by watching the 449 00:24:30,516 --> 00:24:34,516 Speaker 1: people around them, by doing things like helping mom to cook, 450 00:24:35,596 --> 00:24:39,116 Speaker 1: by watching the things that are most important to the 451 00:24:39,116 --> 00:24:42,036 Speaker 1: grown ups around them, and figuring out how the grown 452 00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:45,876 Speaker 1: ups around them were, and we know for many studies, 453 00:24:46,316 --> 00:24:48,436 Speaker 1: many which I describe in the Gardener and the Carpenter, 454 00:24:48,836 --> 00:24:52,796 Speaker 1: just how amazingly subtle children are and how accomplished they 455 00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:55,756 Speaker 1: are at learning just by looking at other people, listening 456 00:24:55,796 --> 00:24:58,916 Speaker 1: to what other people say. Again, I think, because so 457 00:24:59,036 --> 00:25:03,676 Speaker 1: many parents are coming to being parents after they've spent 458 00:25:03,676 --> 00:25:07,036 Speaker 1: a whole lifetime going to school, very often people think, oh, 459 00:25:07,116 --> 00:25:08,756 Speaker 1: children are learning a lot. That means that we have 460 00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:10,356 Speaker 1: to teach them a lot, the way that we teach 461 00:25:10,396 --> 00:25:15,556 Speaker 1: people in school. And in fact, we don't have to 462 00:25:15,596 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 1: make children learn. All we have to do is let 463 00:25:17,476 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 1: them learn. They are the best learners that we know 464 00:25:19,836 --> 00:25:22,036 Speaker 1: of in the universe, you know, much better than any 465 00:25:22,116 --> 00:25:25,756 Speaker 1: AI system. And it's not like we have to teach 466 00:25:25,836 --> 00:25:28,436 Speaker 1: them how to do all of these things. They learn 467 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:31,516 Speaker 1: just in the course of their everyday interaction with the 468 00:25:32,156 --> 00:25:33,796 Speaker 1: people and the world around them. 469 00:25:34,236 --> 00:25:37,236 Speaker 2: Is there evidence to show that the Carpenter model of 470 00:25:37,276 --> 00:25:40,036 Speaker 2: parenting is really taking off or has really taken off? 471 00:25:40,076 --> 00:25:42,316 Speaker 2: I mean, intuitively I feel that's the case, but I'm 472 00:25:42,316 --> 00:25:46,316 Speaker 2: always mindful that I live in a particular bubble and 473 00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:49,916 Speaker 2: that might not be representative of US based trends or 474 00:25:49,956 --> 00:25:50,996 Speaker 2: worldwide trends. 475 00:25:51,796 --> 00:25:54,356 Speaker 1: Well, there's a very interesting paper that just came out 476 00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:58,116 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Pediatrics where they looked at how 477 00:25:58,196 --> 00:26:02,756 Speaker 1: much independence children have had and how constrained they are 478 00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:05,916 Speaker 1: by what parents are doing. And I think the evidence 479 00:26:06,076 --> 00:26:11,316 Speaker 1: was pretty good that historically children had many more opportunities 480 00:26:11,316 --> 00:26:13,756 Speaker 1: for exploring than they do now. So even if you 481 00:26:13,796 --> 00:26:16,836 Speaker 1: just think about, you know, could children walk to school, 482 00:26:18,036 --> 00:26:20,596 Speaker 1: how much of the neighborhood did they know about, I 483 00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:23,036 Speaker 1: think there's actually some pretty good evidence that that has 484 00:26:23,156 --> 00:26:26,356 Speaker 1: really narrowed and become more constrained, both for high income 485 00:26:26,396 --> 00:26:28,676 Speaker 1: and low income children over the past say, twenty or 486 00:26:28,716 --> 00:26:32,476 Speaker 1: thirty years. If you think about when the TV series 487 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:35,556 Speaker 1: Stranger Things came out, which is all set even just 488 00:26:35,716 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 1: not that long ago in the eighties, one of the 489 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:41,396 Speaker 1: reactions people had is, Gee, those kids are just like 490 00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:45,516 Speaker 1: getting on their bikes and wandering around and you know, 491 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:48,676 Speaker 1: going through the park and going to these strange places 492 00:26:48,676 --> 00:26:52,476 Speaker 1: in the forest. The kids wouldn't do that now, right, 493 00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:54,356 Speaker 1: That would be a strange thing for kids to do now. 494 00:26:54,356 --> 00:26:56,436 Speaker 1: And I think there is some empirical evidence that that's 495 00:26:56,476 --> 00:26:57,156 Speaker 1: been true. 496 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:01,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure there's lots of people listening who are thinking, Allison, 497 00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:04,516 Speaker 2: you convinced me intellectually I want to do a little 498 00:27:04,516 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 2: bit more of the gardening approach to parenting. But man, 499 00:27:07,836 --> 00:27:10,476 Speaker 2: it is really hard to or resists the pressures of 500 00:27:10,476 --> 00:27:14,116 Speaker 2: being a carpenter parent. When our current system as it 501 00:27:14,156 --> 00:27:17,196 Speaker 2: is designed, tends to reward kids that grow up under 502 00:27:17,196 --> 00:27:19,476 Speaker 2: that model, What do you say to them? Because it's 503 00:27:19,516 --> 00:27:22,036 Speaker 2: so hard, and I mean, I feel the temperature rising. 504 00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:23,836 Speaker 2: Like we both live in the Bay Area, right, it 505 00:27:23,956 --> 00:27:26,356 Speaker 2: just feels a little bit suffocating at times. 506 00:27:27,916 --> 00:27:32,396 Speaker 1: My basic advice is to chill out. That putting more 507 00:27:32,796 --> 00:27:38,116 Speaker 1: energy into integrating children into the daily life that's most 508 00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:41,236 Speaker 1: important to you, and less energy into trying to shape 509 00:27:41,276 --> 00:27:46,836 Speaker 1: them just leads to a happier existence for everybody. What 510 00:27:46,956 --> 00:27:49,516 Speaker 1: I do think is that in the moment, for a 511 00:27:49,556 --> 00:27:53,396 Speaker 1: particular parent and a particular child, you can sort of 512 00:27:53,716 --> 00:27:56,396 Speaker 1: get a sense of what makes us thrive and what 513 00:27:56,476 --> 00:27:59,356 Speaker 1: makes us not thrive. What are the times that are 514 00:27:59,436 --> 00:28:03,476 Speaker 1: the happy, joyful times? And I think we really underplay 515 00:28:03,796 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 1: just how much every day joy and happiness there is 516 00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:10,076 Speaker 1: and being with little kids, like you know, rolling around 517 00:28:10,116 --> 00:28:13,236 Speaker 1: on the floor and playing and you know, getting a 518 00:28:13,316 --> 00:28:16,476 Speaker 1: chance to use crayons. I never get a chance to 519 00:28:16,556 --> 00:28:18,476 Speaker 1: use crayons in my everyday life. But I could do 520 00:28:18,516 --> 00:28:21,916 Speaker 1: it if I'm with my grandchildren, getting a chance to 521 00:28:21,956 --> 00:28:24,316 Speaker 1: sing old Broadway show tunes, which is also something I 522 00:28:24,356 --> 00:28:26,396 Speaker 1: don't get a chance to do in my regular. 523 00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:29,956 Speaker 2: Life, or just so. My nephew's nine years old and 524 00:28:29,996 --> 00:28:32,396 Speaker 2: I somebody's just marvel at what he's picking up from 525 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:36,116 Speaker 2: his environment that we know that he's never been explicitly taught. 526 00:28:36,196 --> 00:28:39,596 Speaker 2: So he came to visit my husband and me, and 527 00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:41,956 Speaker 2: he gets into the car as we're driving, you know, 528 00:28:41,996 --> 00:28:44,076 Speaker 2: to go to an amusement park or something, and he said, 529 00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:47,156 Speaker 2: you know, like Auntie Maya, Uncle Jimmy, I just need 530 00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:50,916 Speaker 2: to tell you that I probably won't get married, okay. 531 00:28:50,916 --> 00:28:53,676 Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, I'm so glad that this 532 00:28:53,716 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 2: is a choice for you, Matteo, like it's up to 533 00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:58,636 Speaker 2: you to decide. And he's like, and there's a really 534 00:28:58,636 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 2: big reason why. And I was like, okay, you know 535 00:29:00,756 --> 00:29:02,076 Speaker 2: what is it? And he like to have this big 536 00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:07,516 Speaker 2: dramatic pause and he goes heartbreak. I just don't think 537 00:29:07,716 --> 00:29:09,716 Speaker 2: heartbreak is something that I ever want to go through. 538 00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:13,756 Speaker 2: I was like, you're nine, but it was extraordinary to me. 539 00:29:13,836 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 2: I was filled with awe, wow, this little kid is 540 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:20,316 Speaker 2: walking around the world and he somehow absorbed this message right, 541 00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:23,116 Speaker 2: And that was a nice reminder. I was reading your 542 00:29:23,116 --> 00:29:24,996 Speaker 2: book during the same period of time where I was 543 00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 2: interacting with my nephew, and it was a reminder while 544 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:30,556 Speaker 2: so much of that learning is happening outside of these 545 00:29:30,556 --> 00:29:34,156 Speaker 2: formal systems of education, and that's outside these formalized structures, 546 00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:37,636 Speaker 2: and that's the most powerful, emotionally resonant kind of learning. 547 00:29:38,436 --> 00:29:40,076 Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that we can 548 00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:44,396 Speaker 1: do as caregivers in general, maybe even more as grandparents 549 00:29:44,476 --> 00:29:46,076 Speaker 1: because we don't have to worry so much about the 550 00:29:46,156 --> 00:29:48,876 Speaker 1: day to day, is we just get to witness this 551 00:29:49,156 --> 00:29:53,796 Speaker 1: incredible phenomenon of human children learning. I mean, it's one 552 00:29:53,876 --> 00:29:58,836 Speaker 1: of the most striking, amazing things that ever happens in nature, 553 00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 1: is that in this very short space of time, these 554 00:30:02,076 --> 00:30:04,876 Speaker 1: little creatures who were in so many other ways not 555 00:30:05,196 --> 00:30:10,156 Speaker 1: very competent, managed to learn really subtle things like that 556 00:30:10,196 --> 00:30:12,756 Speaker 1: you might have your heart broken if you ever fall 557 00:30:12,796 --> 00:30:18,356 Speaker 1: in love, and not only that, but learning having ideas 558 00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:20,236 Speaker 1: about how the world works, as I said before, that 559 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:22,316 Speaker 1: are really different from anything that a grown up would 560 00:30:22,356 --> 00:30:22,676 Speaker 1: be thinking. 561 00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:27,436 Speaker 2: About there's also a I guess I want to point 562 00:30:27,436 --> 00:30:30,116 Speaker 2: out that even if you are trying to optimize for 563 00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:33,716 Speaker 2: your kid's success, you point out that given all of 564 00:30:33,716 --> 00:30:37,316 Speaker 2: the technological changes happening around us, the gardener approach is 565 00:30:37,356 --> 00:30:41,476 Speaker 2: cultivating the very skills that might be most useful in 566 00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:46,436 Speaker 2: the future of our society. So things like flexibility, creativity, imagination, innovation. 567 00:30:46,836 --> 00:30:48,196 Speaker 2: These are the sorts of things that are going to 568 00:30:48,236 --> 00:30:51,956 Speaker 2: be more important than ever given AI and all the 569 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:55,036 Speaker 2: jobs that will become redundant in the face of AI, like, 570 00:30:55,036 --> 00:30:57,956 Speaker 2: it's these skills that we're cultivating in childhood that actually 571 00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:01,076 Speaker 2: might be the differentiators. Is that right? Or am I 572 00:31:01,076 --> 00:31:02,236 Speaker 2: talking about this in the right way? 573 00:31:02,636 --> 00:31:05,876 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. And remember the impetus for 574 00:31:06,236 --> 00:31:08,676 Speaker 1: humans to develop this long childhood and these big brains 575 00:31:08,716 --> 00:31:11,356 Speaker 1: in the first place is exactly that we live in 576 00:31:11,396 --> 00:31:15,516 Speaker 1: a much wider variety of environments and environments that change 577 00:31:15,556 --> 00:31:19,716 Speaker 1: more than other creatures do. And that's just accelerated, right. 578 00:31:19,756 --> 00:31:22,796 Speaker 1: You know, we're going to have to deal with environments 579 00:31:22,836 --> 00:31:24,716 Speaker 1: that are really different from the environment that we grew 580 00:31:24,796 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 1: up in or that we're living in now, and providing 581 00:31:28,436 --> 00:31:31,916 Speaker 1: children with the kind of sense of possibility, the possibilities 582 00:31:31,916 --> 00:31:34,316 Speaker 1: for exploration is a really good way to do that. 583 00:31:34,876 --> 00:31:38,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious in terms of the practical implications of 584 00:31:38,156 --> 00:31:41,676 Speaker 2: this gardener versus carpenter approach, And I'm wondering has this 585 00:31:41,836 --> 00:31:45,476 Speaker 2: research made you reflect on how your parents did things, 586 00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:47,716 Speaker 2: how you parented your own kids, and what you might 587 00:31:47,756 --> 00:31:48,476 Speaker 2: have done differently. 588 00:31:49,556 --> 00:31:52,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, So my parents are kind of an interesting case. 589 00:31:52,836 --> 00:31:56,916 Speaker 1: They had six children within eleven years when they were 590 00:31:57,396 --> 00:32:03,236 Speaker 1: undergraduate students at the University of Pennsylvania, and we never 591 00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:08,116 Speaker 1: had special classes, we never were in enrichment programs. But 592 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:12,436 Speaker 1: we grew up in this world where there was lots 593 00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:14,716 Speaker 1: of art around, there were lots of books around, there 594 00:32:14,796 --> 00:32:19,916 Speaker 1: was always lots of conversation available, and for what it's worth, 595 00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:24,196 Speaker 1: we all became writers and scientists and people who were 596 00:32:24,196 --> 00:32:26,916 Speaker 1: doing creative work. But it wasn't because our parents were 597 00:32:26,956 --> 00:32:30,356 Speaker 1: ever shaping us. It was that we were in this 598 00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:33,076 Speaker 1: very rich world and we just got to explore that 599 00:32:33,196 --> 00:32:35,756 Speaker 1: rich world. Now, you know, as a parent myself, I 600 00:32:36,516 --> 00:32:39,076 Speaker 1: have to say to this day, I'm almost seventy and 601 00:32:39,116 --> 00:32:41,236 Speaker 1: my children are in their forties. I say to myself, 602 00:32:41,276 --> 00:32:44,076 Speaker 1: you know, maybe would it have been better if I 603 00:32:44,196 --> 00:32:46,956 Speaker 1: hadn't done that when they were five or six. It's very, 604 00:32:47,036 --> 00:32:50,516 Speaker 1: very hard to avoid thinking that way. But I do 605 00:32:50,596 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 1: think the things that have been most satisfying for me 606 00:32:53,876 --> 00:32:55,956 Speaker 1: about my children have been the things that they did 607 00:32:56,036 --> 00:32:59,516 Speaker 1: that were completely unexpected. One of my sons actually became 608 00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:01,996 Speaker 1: a carpenter. He isn't too happy about the title of 609 00:33:01,996 --> 00:33:04,556 Speaker 1: my book because he he thinks it's a bit of 610 00:33:04,556 --> 00:33:05,676 Speaker 1: a slur on carpenters. 611 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:10,716 Speaker 2: Carpenters are great houses, that's right, that the family's then 612 00:33:10,796 --> 00:33:13,636 Speaker 2: live in. So there, Allison's son, I got. 613 00:33:13,436 --> 00:33:16,356 Speaker 1: You another one of my sons. I like this story. 614 00:33:16,556 --> 00:33:21,956 Speaker 1: My grandfather actually was an immigrant from a little Jewish 615 00:33:21,956 --> 00:33:25,236 Speaker 1: settle in Russia, and he became a deli man. He 616 00:33:25,316 --> 00:33:27,116 Speaker 1: opened up a little grocery store, and he had a 617 00:33:27,116 --> 00:33:30,396 Speaker 1: little deli. And then, of course his son, who was 618 00:33:30,476 --> 00:33:33,956 Speaker 1: my father, became an academic, became a professor, His daughter 619 00:33:34,036 --> 00:33:38,676 Speaker 1: me became a professor. And my son is now providing 620 00:33:39,156 --> 00:33:44,836 Speaker 1: smoke meat and poutine and deli meats to the Berkeley 621 00:33:44,876 --> 00:33:48,116 Speaker 1: in the Bay areas. So he became a deli man. 622 00:33:48,436 --> 00:33:51,676 Speaker 1: I would never have anticipated that he would have become 623 00:33:51,676 --> 00:33:54,196 Speaker 1: a deli man and a very successful and happy Deli man. 624 00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:59,596 Speaker 1: And it's those kinds of unexpected trajectories that I actually think, 625 00:33:59,636 --> 00:34:01,756 Speaker 1: in fact are the most satisfying things that you can 626 00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:26,276 Speaker 1: imagine happening with your children. 627 00:34:33,556 --> 00:34:36,716 Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week 628 00:34:36,756 --> 00:34:41,556 Speaker 2: for my conversation with clinical psychologists doctor Becky Kennedy. She's 629 00:34:41,676 --> 00:34:45,156 Speaker 2: known as the millennial parenting Whisperer, and she offers a 630 00:34:45,196 --> 00:34:48,356 Speaker 2: new approach to parenting that I find refreshing because it's 631 00:34:48,436 --> 00:34:51,836 Speaker 2: useful for all kinds of relationships. See you next week. 632 00:35:02,556 --> 00:35:05,516 Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive 633 00:35:05,556 --> 00:35:09,436 Speaker 2: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes 634 00:35:09,476 --> 00:35:13,596 Speaker 2: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, 635 00:35:14,156 --> 00:35:18,476 Speaker 2: our producer Trisha Bobita, and our sound engineer Andrew Vastola. 636 00:35:19,396 --> 00:35:22,996 Speaker 2: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith 637 00:35:23,116 --> 00:35:26,076 Speaker 2: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 638 00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:29,756 Speaker 2: a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, 639 00:35:30,396 --> 00:35:33,676 Speaker 2: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 640 00:35:34,236 --> 00:35:36,716 Speaker 2: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 641 00:35:36,756 --> 00:35:39,436 Speaker 2: at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.