1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb, and this episode of Stuff to 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 2: Blow your Mind, we're going to be chatting with Jasmine Graham, 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 2: a shark scientist and author of Sharks Don't Sink. This 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 2: is a great book and it is out right now 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: in all formats, So I encourage you if this interview 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: grabs you, if the subject matter grabs you, and especially 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 2: if you're interested in sharks, this is definitely some great 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 2: summer reading for you, so pick up a copy, especially 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 2: if you are going to go out to the beach 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 2: or in any way experience the ocean this year. So 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: without further ado, let's dive right in. Hi, Jasmine, welcome 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: to the show. 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 16 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: The new book, Sharks Don't Sink. Adventures of a Rogue 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 2: Sharks Scientist is out in digital, physical, and audio formats. 18 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed. It's a science book about sharks, but 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 2: it's also a social advocacy book and a personal memoir. 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: So I wanted to ask you. I'm going to ask 21 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: you about all of these aspects, but I guess the 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: best place to start is the simple question, how did 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: you become interested in shark biology. 24 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 3: I was always very interested in the ocean, and I 25 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 3: grew up fishing with my dad and come from a 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 3: fishing family, and so the ocean was always part of me. 27 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 3: I didn't really think much about sharks. I wasn't one 28 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 3: of those people that was afraid of them. I wasn't 29 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 3: super obsessed with them as a kid. They were kind 30 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 3: of just animals that existed. But whenever I was in 31 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: college working on my marine biology degree, I met a 32 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: professor who studied sharks, and I started talking with him 33 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 3: and doing some research with him, and they kind of 34 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 3: fell in love with sharks. I did a lot of 35 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 3: different marine science research while I was an undergrad, but 36 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: I just kept coming back to sharks because I just 37 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: think they're so cool. They've been here so long, they 38 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 3: have such neat adaptations, and I've always been someone that 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 3: roots for the underdog, and they're very misunderstood, so I've 40 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: always enjoyed working with them. 41 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: Now. In the book, you discussed the challenges and limitations 42 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: of the academic world. I think a lot of us 43 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: outside of academia only have like a surface level understanding 44 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: of things like publish or perish, And so I might 45 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 2: ask you to discuss that a little bit for everyone. 46 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: But also, you know, I think it's easy for us 47 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: outsiders to think about science and research as being well, okay, 48 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: this is like a pure logical thing, and we let 49 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: ourselves forget that we have all these issues of politics 50 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: and discrimination very much in play in that world as well. 51 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: What are the challenges facing up and coming research scientists 52 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: and scientists of color in particular. 53 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that you point out this perception that 54 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: science is objective and without bias, and that's how science 55 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 3: should be in its purest form. But obviously science is 56 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 3: conducted by human beings, and human beings all have biases, 57 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: We have flaws, where illogical sometimes, and so I think 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: it's really hard for people in the science field, not 59 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: just people outside of the science field, but even people 60 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 3: in the science field to come to terms with that 61 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: that this area of research that we do, you know, 62 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: we do the scientific method and all of that, and 63 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: we like to think of ourselves as being objective. It's 64 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 3: really hard for us to admit that our biases come 65 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: into play in our scientific research. But that's something that 66 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 3: we have to deal with because We've seen science be 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 3: used for some really terrible things. We've seen science be 68 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 3: used as an excuse for genocide. We've seen science create 69 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: atomic bombs. We've seen science do all sorts of really 70 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: not great things. And so we have to recognize that 71 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: we have this responsibility as scientists to try to be objective, 72 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 3: but recognize that we are not entirely objective, and so 73 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 3: we have to be critical of how we think, how 74 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: we interact with each other, and all of those things, 75 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 3: everything to who gets to present to the scientific conference 76 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 3: or who gets to work in somebody's lab, or who's 77 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 3: invited to speak at this university, all of that has 78 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 3: bias associated with it, and so we have to work 79 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 3: really hard to be responsive to that. What that looks 80 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 3: like in terms of scientists from marginalized communities, it often 81 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 3: looks like not getting as much mentorship opportunities. It looks 82 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: like not being in the club, you know, like a 83 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: there's a clear these are the cool people in science, 84 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 3: and we all hang out together and we all talk, 85 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 3: and then there's outside ring of people trying to get 86 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 3: into the cool club, into the inner circle, as it will, 87 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 3: And so those in the inner circle have to be 88 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 3: really mindful of those who are outside the circle trying 89 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: to get in and making sure that they're accessible pathways 90 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 3: to that. Because science and academia the way that it's 91 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 3: set up, has a lot of potential for gatekeepers to 92 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 3: solely decide who gets accepted into a PhD program, who 93 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 3: gets published. We have this idea of peer review, which 94 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 3: is really great if you assume that your peers are 95 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: objective and going to be fair and just. And yes, 96 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 3: there are a lot of people that give fair reviews, 97 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 3: but there's a lot of people whose reviews are biased. 98 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 3: They see somebody's name and they say, I don't know 99 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: that I trust that person just based off of their name, 100 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 3: if it's a name that sounds feminine, if it's a 101 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 3: name that sounds quote unquote foreign. You know, I've had 102 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: people that are in different countries trying to publish work, 103 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 3: and they complain a lot of times that they get 104 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 3: really unfair peer reviews that basically imply that because they 105 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 3: are from a country in the global South, their science 106 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 3: isn't as credible as somebody from Europe or North America. 107 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 3: And so that's something that we struggle with. So those 108 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 3: are just a few examples, but there's lots of areas 109 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 3: where bias can creep in, and because we like to 110 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 3: think of ourselves as objective, sometimes we choose to ignore 111 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 3: those things and kind of stick our head in the sand. 112 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 3: But we have to really confront it in order to 113 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: make sure that science is actually objective and equitable. 114 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 2: And just thank you for walking us through that. Could 115 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 2: you talk a little bit about Minorities in Shark Sciences 116 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: or miss how this came together, what sort of work 117 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: it's doing, and where you'd like it to go in 118 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 2: the future. 119 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: Minorities in Shark Sciences is four years old, so we 120 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: were founded in June of twenty twenty. We actually met 121 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 3: each other on on Twitter, me and the other three 122 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 3: co founders, and we really wanted to create a sense 123 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 3: of community. That's what it started out as. We want 124 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 3: to create a sense of community where people feel like 125 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,119 Speaker 3: they belong in science, where people are able to build 126 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 3: their science identity in a place where they feel that 127 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 3: the rest of their identity can come along and they 128 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 3: don't have to leave it at the door in order 129 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: to be accepted. And so that's sort of where Minorities 130 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 3: in Shark Sciences came from. Since then, it's grown to 131 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: be so much more than just community. It's grown to 132 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: be this sort of wave of change in marine science 133 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 3: and shark science in particular, where we were astounded at 134 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: how many people you did an open call of who 135 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: is trying to get into shark research or marine science 136 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: and feels like they are the first or the only 137 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: person like them in the room, come and join us. 138 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 3: Five hundred people responded. That's a lot of people. And 139 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 3: so having this movement build of Okay, now we have 140 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 3: a responsibility to all of these people who are sharing 141 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 3: their stories, who are pointing out these issues, who want 142 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: support in their universities, in their academic institutions, in their 143 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 3: organizations to bring these issues to the forefront, because what 144 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: we found is that a lot of people have been 145 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 3: experiencing these things and have been trying to draw attention 146 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 3: to them individually. And it's a lot of Oh, I 147 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: think you're imagining that they maybe don't mean that you know, 148 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: all of these sort of but but but but but 149 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 3: and so that could be really frustrating to have people 150 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 3: not believe you whenever you're trying to address something. But 151 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 3: you can ignore one person, you can maybe ignore two people, 152 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 3: ignoring five hundred people saying the same thing. That's really 153 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: hard to do, so you got to stick your head 154 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 3: pretty far in that's sand. And so that's sort of 155 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 3: what this movement has become is giving voice to people 156 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 3: who haven't been able to have their voices amplified before, 157 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: doing cutting edge research and making sure to elevate people 158 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 3: who are doing research that maybe wasn't being respected before 159 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: and being able to amplify that work and bring attention 160 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: to it with this collective power that Myths as an 161 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 3: organization has built. And then also getting to bring more 162 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 3: people into the fold, making sure that more people get 163 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 3: into that inner circle, providing the mentorship experiences. So we 164 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 3: do mentorship experiences, we do professional development workshops, we help 165 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: people build skills, all of these sorts of skills that 166 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 3: you don't learn in school but people expect you to 167 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: magically know how to do. And then also getting internships 168 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 3: and fellowships and things like that, while eliminating the financial 169 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: barrier associated with that, because that's been a huge problem 170 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: in the past. Is this pay to play where you 171 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: have to pay someone to go work for them, which 172 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 3: exists in marine science and is super common. But if 173 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: you went to pretty much any other field of career, 174 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 3: if you say wanted to go intern at Google, it 175 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 3: would be absurd for you to pay to intern at Google. 176 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: Google would pay you to intern at Google. But in 177 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 3: marine science, for reasons, lots of reasons, it's flipped where 178 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 3: the expectation is you're going to pay for this, and 179 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 3: so that makes it really hard for people to access 180 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 3: those experiences. But they need those experiences to get the job, 181 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 3: to get in that inner circle, to meet those people, 182 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 3: and so MISS is all about eliminating those barriers introducing 183 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 3: young people to marine science. In the ocean. Early on, 184 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 3: we serve what we call kada gray. So we're really 185 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 3: interested in bringing everyone in and making everyone feel connected, 186 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 3: whether that means they want to be a scientist or 187 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 3: they want to just advocate in their everyday lives. We 188 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 3: want to make sure that people have access to the 189 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: information about what's going on in our ocean ecosystems because 190 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 3: it affects all of us. 191 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 2: That's awesome. Now, getting I guess more into sharks again. 192 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: You spend a great deal of the book discussing the 193 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: elegance of sharks. You know from broad strokes about their 194 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: appearance and evolution to biological specifics and species level details. 195 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to ask you to go 196 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 2: through all of that here. I encourage listeners to go 197 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: check out the book. But in brief, why are sharks 198 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: such an evolutionary success story? Why have they done so 199 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 2: well and why have they changed so little? 200 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,239 Speaker 3: That's a great question and something that we as evolutionary 201 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: biologists are really interested in, and we don't have all 202 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 3: the answers. But something that's really unique about sharks is 203 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 3: that they've been around on this planet a really long time. 204 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: And when I say a really long time, I mean 205 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 3: before the dinosaurs, before we had trees, before Saturn had 206 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 3: its rings. This we're talking four hundred million years of time, 207 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: which I think is really hard for us to grasp 208 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 3: as human beings who have been on this planet for 209 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: a blink of an eye. But they've been here and 210 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 3: pretty much not changing that much. The same basic body plan, 211 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 3: same basic in the time that dinosaurs became chickens. Because 212 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 3: closest relative to dinosaurs a chicken, it's pretty wild to 213 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 3: think that sharks kind of looked the same and we 214 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 3: went from a dinosaur to a chicken and the same 215 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 3: amount of time, and so it's it's really cool, but 216 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 3: it's also something that makes it really alarming when we 217 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 3: think about losing them at the rate that we're losing them. 218 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: So they've survived every mass extinction event thus far. Supervolcanoes, 219 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: meteor showers, you know, all of these ice ages, all 220 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 3: of these things that other organisms didn't survive. They survived. 221 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 3: But we're in the sixth mass extinction that's driven by people, 222 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 3: and they're dying at an alarming rate, which we should all 223 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 3: be concerned about because we don't know what the world 224 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 3: looks like without sharks. Sharks have been here so long 225 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 3: that we don't even know what happens to an ecosystem 226 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 3: when they're not there. We have no idea what the 227 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 3: consequences of that are. And it's also really upsetting to 228 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 3: think that we as a species are more damaging to 229 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 3: the marine environment than super volcanoes and meteor showers. That's 230 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 3: pretty bad, and we need to start thinking about how 231 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 3: we live sustainably, how do we coexist with all of 232 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 3: these creatures that are here inhabiting the planet right now, 233 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: because we just got here and we might not last 234 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 3: very long if we keep going the way that we're going, 235 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 3: and so That's something that I think is really important 236 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 3: to think about. And sharks have all of these really 237 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 3: cool adaptations that we can really learn learn from. I mean, 238 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: Michael Phelps had a whole swimsuit designed like the skin 239 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 3: of sharks, and it was actually so effective that they 240 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 3: banded in the Olympics. Like, just by copying how a 241 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 3: shark's skin is designed, you increased your speed so much 242 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: that it was banned at the Olympics. That's wild. Like 243 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 3: nature has some really cool ways of figuring out how 244 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: to solve problems, and sharks have really solved a lot 245 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: of them. And so we can learn a lot from sharks, 246 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: but not if they're not here. 247 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: You talk about sharks as k selected animals rather than 248 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: are selected animals, and how that plays into their vulnerability. 249 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: Can you can you walk us through that real quick? 250 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: What does it mean to be a K selected organism? 251 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 3: Sure? So, when we think about the term k selected, 252 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 3: and that's a term that's been used for a long time, 253 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 3: people are starting to transition away from it, but I 254 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: think it's really good for this concept. You have an organism, 255 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 3: think like a sequoia grows for a really long time, 256 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 3: gets really big, and that's that's great, you know, lives 257 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: a long time, super long life, which is a strategy. 258 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 3: And then you think of like a mosquito that lives 259 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 3: and dies pretty much within a couple of days. And 260 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: so you are comparing those two things, and it's not 261 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: that one is more effective. Mosquitos, you know, are effective 262 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 3: at existing. Sequoias are effective at existing until you introduce 263 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 3: something like people and all the things that we do 264 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 3: that causes these things that are supposed to be living 265 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 3: a long time to not live a long time. And 266 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: so these these case selected organisms are their strategy is 267 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 3: live a long time, produce a lot of young over 268 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 3: a long period of time, not just you know, put 269 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 3: all of your eggs in one basket right at the beginning. 270 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: When we have mosquitoes and things like that, there are 271 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 3: selected they don't live a long time, but they have 272 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: a lot of young in that amount of time. And 273 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: that's fine. Whatever strategy works until you start cutting down 274 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: sequoias before they get to live their full life and 275 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 3: reproduce as much as they should have if they live 276 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 3: their full life. Same thing for sharks. It takes sharks 277 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 3: a really long time to mature. So you think about people, 278 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 3: we're also long lived don't reproduce very much. If we 279 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 3: all died before we hit twenty years old, think about 280 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 3: how many of us wouldn't have had children. Think about 281 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: what that does to the population we're supposed to live. 282 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 3: You know, roughly seventy eighty ninety some people live to 283 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 3: be over one hundred years old, and you have time 284 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 3: to have multi full children. Not if you die at 285 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 3: twenty that's you don't have that opportunity, and so you 286 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 3: can't replace yourself. And so that's what's happening with sharks 287 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 3: is their strategy worked for a really long time until 288 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: we had these other things come about that are now 289 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 3: killing them and they're not living their full life expectancy 290 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 3: like they should have, and so that's affecting everything. It's 291 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 3: affecting how many young are in the next generation. It's 292 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 3: affecting the health of those young because we also have 293 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 3: things like maternal offloading, which is where a mother shark 294 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: has so much toxins, think mercury, think all of those 295 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 3: things in her body that it starts being detrimental to her. 296 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 3: And the strategy for a case selected individual is I'm 297 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: going to get rid of these toxins and my next 298 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 3: litter of pups. I'm just gonna dump it all into them, 299 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: and they might not survive, but I will keep living 300 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 3: and I will have more pups. So I will make 301 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: the sacrifice of these pups so that I can keep 302 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 3: living and continue to have pups, which is a great strategy, 303 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 3: except for if you then are always accumulating mercury and 304 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: now all of your pups are not healthy and you're 305 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 3: continuing to live and reproduce, but the pups that you're 306 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: reproducing aren't as viable because they have all these toxins 307 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: in them. And so those are sort of things that 308 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 3: you don't start to think about until you kind of 309 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 3: dive deep into the ecology and how sharks work. And 310 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 3: that's sort of what I like to talk about in 311 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: the book so that people can understand, hey, conservation of 312 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 3: the oceans involves conserving sharks. 313 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 2: I think are some of the most I guess winnable 314 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 2: problems with shark conservation right now, like what are the 315 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 2: areas where that are the most easily addressable that maybe 316 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: we're not addressing yet. 317 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: So fishing is a big problem we have overfishing, which 318 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 3: is where they're taking more out of the population than 319 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: can replace themselves. But then we also have by catch 320 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 3: and by catches where they're not actually targeting sharks. Sharks 321 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 3: are not the goal. Sharks are accidentally being caught. And 322 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 3: so that I feel like is something that's we can address. 323 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 3: Is it's not a matter of how do we feed 324 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 3: these people, how do we make sure that these people 325 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 3: have their economies stabilize. They don't actually want these sharks. 326 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 3: They don't want the sharks. We don't want them to 327 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: catch the sharks. This is a perfect way for us 328 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 3: to come together and think how do we keep sharks 329 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 3: out of your gear? And so that's a lot of 330 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 3: what I start thinking about is bycatch reduction, how do 331 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: we keep these species that people don't want. They don't 332 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 3: want to eat them, they don't need them for anything. 333 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 3: That's a huge problem where they're dying for no reason 334 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 3: at all. We're not even using them. And so that's 335 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 3: one area. Another area with overfishing is a bit more 336 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 3: complicated but still doable, is how do we cut down 337 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 3: on the amount of products that we need. So we 338 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 3: think about squaling, squalling, and it's the oil in sharks livers. 339 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: A lot of it's used in cosmetics and lotions and 340 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: things like that. Whilst scientists have figured out a way 341 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: to manufacture synthetic squaling, so we replace all of the 342 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 3: squaling that's coming from sharks with synthetic. We've already cut 343 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 3: out a good number of sharks deaths and so little 344 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 3: things like that, simple switches that we can make in 345 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: order to cut down on the amount of products that 346 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 3: we use. I think people tend to focus on other 347 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 3: people as a means to change. So we think about 348 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 3: shark fin soup. That's what a lot of people like 349 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 3: to focus on, is well, we need to stop the 350 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 3: Asian people from eating shark fin soup. This is not 351 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 3: an Asia problem. This is an everyone problem. And it's 352 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 3: really easy for you to point at somebody else and say, well, 353 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 3: it's their fault. We need to start thinking about what 354 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 3: can I do, what can we do here to make changes. 355 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 3: It's not about pointing fingers at people, and I think 356 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: it's a very slippery slope. It's really easy to fall 357 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: into racism and xenophobia and be like, these people that 358 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 3: are not like me are the problem. Fishermen are the problem, 359 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 3: Asian people are the problem, Indigenous people are the problem. 360 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 3: It's never I'm the problem. We have to start thinking 361 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 3: about how we are contributing to the problem, because we 362 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 3: all are, and we can't just go pointing fingers at people, 363 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 3: especially because the people that tend to have the fingers 364 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 3: pointed at them are marginalized communities who don't have a 365 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 3: seat at the conservation table when these discussions are going on. 366 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 3: It's really easy to blame someone when they're not there 367 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 3: to defend themselves, and so I always like to tell 368 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 3: people just be mindful of that when you're starting to 369 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 3: think about conservation, start with yourself first before you start 370 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 3: pointing fingers at other people. 371 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: Now in the book, you bring up the topic of 372 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 2: beach renourishment. Is this something that threatens sharks in the wild. 373 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 3: Beach renourishment is something that's really interesting because as we 374 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: have people living on coastlines, we have kind of two 375 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 3: I guess groups of people living on coastlines. We have 376 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 3: people who are living on the coastlines because they don't 377 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 3: have anywhere else to go. And we have people that 378 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 3: are living on coastlines because they want beachfront property and 379 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 3: they want to look at the ocean. And so these 380 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 3: are two groups of people that are often in conflict 381 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 3: with each other because there's the people that have the 382 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 3: beachfront property, have money and power, and the people who 383 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 3: do not and are there because that's where they've been pushed. 384 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 3: Thinking about Indigenous communities in Louisiana, a lot of Indigenous 385 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 3: communities got pushed to Louisiana and those parishes that are 386 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 3: coastal that are now going underwater, and that is not 387 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 3: where they intended to be, that is not where their 388 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 3: native lands are, that is where they were pushed. And 389 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 3: then we have people you know that want to come 390 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 3: and live in Miami and you know, have their beaches 391 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 3: and stuff. And so we have to think about this 392 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 3: from like two perspectives because there are reneurishment things where 393 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 3: we're trying to keep land available for people who have 394 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 3: nowhere else to go. And that's one issue, and there 395 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 3: are lots of ways that we can think about, how 396 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 3: do we keep people where they are, how do we 397 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 3: help them decide where they want to go and give 398 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 3: them a place to go if that's what they choose 399 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 3: to do. Then we have this other group of people 400 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 3: who are like, I want white fluffy sand in a beach. 401 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 3: That is a different situation, and that's what I'm talking about. 402 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 3: Just to clarify. That's what I'm talking about when I 403 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 3: talk about renourishment projects being a problem renourishing a beach 404 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: because you want your nice beach. You're a hotel, and 405 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 3: your private beach is disappearing. That's do we need to 406 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 3: do that? I don't know, that's debatable. And so we 407 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 3: have this issue where we put this fake sand or 408 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 3: not fake sand, but sand that's not supposed to be 409 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 3: there in an area where the ocean wants to move it, 410 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 3: like mother nature has decided this beach ink won't be 411 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 3: here no more. And when mother nature decides something, it's 412 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 3: really hard to counteract that, and you need to have 413 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 3: a really good reason for doing that because it's going 414 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: to be really expensive and it's probably not gonna work, 415 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 3: or it will work, and it won't last very long. 416 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 3: And so what we have, like in Myrtle Beach where 417 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 3: my family is from, is we have these hotels and 418 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 3: these owners of beachfront property saying, well, my beach is 419 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 3: disappearing and that's a natural process, but we're trying to 420 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 3: stop it for economic reasons, and we put this sand 421 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 3: here and then a hurricane comes, like Hurricane Ian came 422 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 3: and they had just done a beach y nourishment project. 423 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 3: Guess we're all of that sand that they spent millions 424 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 3: of dollars putting on that peachment. Whoop, the mother nature 425 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 3: took it away. Mine. No, not supposed to be here. 426 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 3: But where does that sand go? It gets dumped off shore, 427 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 3: it covers up reefs, it covers up sea grass beds, 428 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 3: it covers up all of these habitats where fish are living, 429 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 3: and all of the sand just this whole beach just 430 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 3: shifted into the water. And that's where we have an issue. 431 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 3: Is the ocean giveth and the ocean taketh away. Like 432 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 3: you can put all the sand there you want to. 433 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 3: If the ocean does not want that sand to be there, 434 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 3: it is not going to stay there, and it's got 435 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 3: to go somewhere, and that somewhere is often covering important habitats. 436 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: We have fishermen that I've talked to that say, immediately 437 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 3: after a storm, after a renewished area gets swept away, 438 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 3: they can't catch fish. And that's just terrible because that 439 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 3: means all of these where do all these fish go? 440 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 3: All of these fishermen that are relying on this, all 441 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 3: of these communities relying on this for food, it's gone. 442 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 3: They can't access it until the sand starts moving further 443 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 3: and further offshore, which who knows how that's how long 444 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 3: that's going to take. And so these are things we 445 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 3: have to take into consideration. We make these decisions as 446 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 3: humans because we are part of the environment. The environment 447 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 3: is part of us. Every decision we make has an 448 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 3: equal and opposite reaction. So we need to be making 449 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 3: decisions based on necessity, not on I want my beach 450 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 3: to look at ice. 451 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 2: Now, coming back to just sort of like the character 452 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: of Sharks, the being in the water with sharks. You know, 453 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: the book is coming out in the summer, this episode 454 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 2: is publishing in the summer. A lot of people are 455 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: getting in the water. Sometimes people are getting in the 456 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 2: water maybe in the vicinity of sharks for the first 457 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 2: time or for the first time in a while. Do 458 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: you think there are key things that like the average 459 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: person getting in the water with the sharks might need 460 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: to learn about them or unlearn about them, Like what 461 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 2: do folks often just maybe not seem to understand or 462 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: need to understand a little better before they get in 463 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: there with them. 464 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's just a lot of fear surrounding the ocean 465 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 3: and sharks in particular. And I mean, there are tons 466 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 3: of people that will not get in the ocean because 467 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 3: they are that afraid of sharks. And I mean I 468 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 3: can give numbers and figures and statistics, and maybe that 469 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 3: affects people, maybe it doesn't. You have this fear that's 470 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 3: been built by years of watching these shark movies and 471 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 3: hearing these news stories and all of the sensationalized things, 472 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 3: and that's something that takes time to get over. And 473 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 3: I think some of the best ways to overcome that 474 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 3: is to do it you just exposure therapy, get in 475 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 3: the water, see that you're fine, and then you're like, Okay, 476 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 3: that wasn't so bad. I'll go a little deeper next time. 477 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 3: I'll go a little deeper next time. And once you 478 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 3: get in the ocean, you discover all of these amazing 479 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 3: things that the ocean has to offer. Once you start 480 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 3: snorkeling and looking underneath the water and seeing all of 481 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 3: these fish that are swimming around you and all of 482 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 3: that stuff, hopefully the fascination with the ocean will start 483 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 3: to outweigh that fear. And I like to kind of 484 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 3: remind people we say things and our language affects people's 485 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: perceptions and so you know, media all of that. Just 486 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,479 Speaker 3: being mindful of the way that we portray sharks. So 487 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 3: saying things like shark infested waters, the waters are not 488 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 3: shark infested. That's where they live. It's if anything, they're 489 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 3: people infested, because we're the ones that aren't supposed to 490 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 3: be there. You wouldn't say that the sky is bird infested, 491 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 3: like they live there. That's where they are. And you know, 492 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 3: the pictures that we choose to use when we have 493 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 3: a story. I mean, someone will get nibbled by like 494 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 3: a little tiny leopard shark and they'll be like shark 495 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 3: attack off La Hooia Shores. It'll be like a great 496 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: white shark. No, it was like the little tiny, two 497 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 3: foot little leopard shark and the person needed a band aid. 498 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 3: We don't need like this whole thing. And yes, there 499 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 3: are people who have bites. They have negative encounters with sharks, 500 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 3: it does happen. But we have negative encounters with all 501 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 3: sorts of wild animals. They are animals. We have negative 502 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 3: encounters with each other. We you know, it's it's a 503 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: fact of life that if things are in proximity to 504 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 3: each other, eventually there will be a negative encounter, and 505 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 3: it's it's something that I hope that with the love 506 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 3: of the ocean and this increased desire to be in 507 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 3: the ocean, similar to how we still get in cars 508 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 3: even though we know that we could get in an accident. 509 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 3: That's because our necessity are a desire to get from 510 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 3: one place to another quickly and not have to walk 511 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,959 Speaker 3: outweighs our fear of getting in an accident. And that's 512 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 3: sort of where we're going with kind of exposing people 513 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 3: to how cool the ocean is, how exciting it is, 514 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 3: and then that fear is kind of downplayed a little bit. 515 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 3: And am not saying that there's like a zero percent 516 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 3: chance that you're gonna get bit by a shark. What 517 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 3: I am saying is, wouldn't you rather experience this amazing 518 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 3: thing rather than be cut off from it because you're 519 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 3: afraid of this thing that's really not gonna happen happening. 520 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 3: And I also like to remind people, like I work 521 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 3: with sharks for a living. I'm like around them all 522 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 3: the time, I'm touching them all the time, doing things 523 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 3: that they don't exactly want, Like you don't like for 524 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 3: your dentists to be in your mouth. You don't like 525 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 3: for your nurse to draw your blood. You don't like 526 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 3: these things. They're like good for you, and like the sharks. 527 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 3: Don't understand that sharks can't think like people and be like, oh, 528 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 3: this person's trying to help me. Look they're removing a parasite. 529 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 3: How nice of them. They're like, ah, why are you 530 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 3: touching me? Ah? And so I haven't had any issues 531 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 3: with sharks. If I haven't, I have like way higher 532 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 3: probability than the average person. So you're fine, Like you 533 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: just walking in the water up to your waist, It's like, 534 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 3: you're fine. 535 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: So if chips are down. What's your favorite shark species? 536 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 3: My favorite shark species is the bonnet head shark because 537 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 3: they're adorable. It's also the first shark that I got 538 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 3: to work with, and they were the first shark to 539 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 3: be discovered to be omnivorous. So they eat plants and animals. 540 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 3: Seagrass makes forty to sixty percent of their diet actually, 541 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 3: which is pretty wild that this little shark is eating 542 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 3: potentially more plants than they are eating animals and getting 543 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 3: more nutrition from plants. And so, I mean that just 544 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 3: goes back to how cool sharks are. We have this 545 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 3: one dimensional view of sharks because you hear the word 546 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 3: shark and you think great white jaws, mindless killing machine. 547 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 3: But there's so much diversity that actually white sharks are 548 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 3: the exception and not the rule. Most sharks are small. 549 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 3: Most sharks are less than four feet long. A lot 550 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 3: of sharks live in the deep sea. Some of them 551 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 3: grow glow in the dark. Some of them have hammers 552 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 3: for heads, some of them eat plants, some of them 553 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 3: are pretty colors, some of them are filter feeders. It's 554 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 3: just there's so much variety, and we're really doing sharks 555 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 3: at disservice by only thinking of them in this one way. 556 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 3: That would be like us thinking that all humans are 557 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 3: I don't know, six ' five or like I don't 558 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 3: know yao ming or something like that, like where they're 559 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 3: not like, we're not all like that. We had a 560 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 3: lot of varieties. Some of us have different hair colors, 561 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 3: we're different shades, we're different sizes, we have different interests, 562 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 3: and it would be doing humans a disservice to narrow 563 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 3: us down to like one type of person. So we 564 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 3: shouldn't do that to sharks. 565 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 2: Now that you pointed out it. It does feel like 566 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: even in like science reporting, a lot of times, like 567 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: the shark diversity stories that kind of end up poking 568 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 2: their head up or ones about like gnarly looking teeth. 569 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 2: You know, it'll be like, oh, look at the goblin shark. 570 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 2: It's it's gnarly looking, you know, and and maybe less 571 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 2: so on Well, here's a shark that eats. It is omnivorous. 572 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 2: So that's a great point. Now in terms of your research, 573 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 2: what shark or race SPECIs are you working with the 574 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 2: most right now? 575 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 3: Right now, my work is mostly on understanding the effects 576 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 3: of a harmful alcol bloom called Florida red tide on sharks, 577 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 3: and so I'm doing that work here in Sarasota Bay 578 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 3: and Tampa Bay, and so a lot of the sharks 579 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 3: that I'm working with are black tips, black noses. I 580 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 3: still am working with bonnet heads a little bit, although 581 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 3: not as much. And then we have scalloped hammerheads and 582 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 3: great hammerheads as well, and so those are the main 583 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 3: species that I'm interested in working with right now. I 584 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,479 Speaker 3: still am a part of the sawfish research right now. 585 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 3: Sawfish are experiencing a unprecedented die off in in the 586 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 3: South Florida area where they're exhibiting this weird spinning behavior 587 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 3: and washing up dead. We've lost quite a number of them, 588 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 3: especially considering how small the population is already, because they're 589 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 3: critically endangered, so there's not a lot of them, and 590 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 3: so that's been a big concern, and so I've been 591 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 3: kind of just helping where I can, giving my expertise 592 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 3: where I can, since I have worked with them for 593 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 3: a number of years. Because it's all hands on deck 594 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 3: right now. No one knows why this is happening, how 595 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 3: to stop it, what's going on, and so we're all 596 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 3: just kind of lending support where we can. So that's 597 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 3: sort of an ongoing side project of mine, built more 598 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 3: out of necessity, where we're trying to deal with this unprecedented. 599 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 2: Event now in the shark science is obviously they're going 600 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 2: to be species that are hard to get to or 601 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 2: rare in number, But in general, are there are there 602 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 2: any shark species that are considered like understudied, not so 603 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 2: much because of their remoteness, just because like we just 604 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: don't know, don't don't pay as much attention to them. 605 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 2: Are there any stories like that in the shark sciences? 606 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 3: I feel like there are tons of understudied species, and 607 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 3: you ask a different scientist and they will give you 608 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 3: a different answer, like the I mean, there's so many 609 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 3: species of sharks. There's about five hundred species of sharks, 610 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 3: so we're not studying all of them. Some of them 611 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,919 Speaker 3: are in the deep c we can't get to them. 612 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 3: Some of them are in areas where there's not a 613 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 3: lot of support. So, as I mentioned, there are scientists 614 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 3: in countries in the global South that are doing work, 615 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 3: and that work is happening, but it's not making it 616 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 3: into the mainstream publication system because of these biases that exist. 617 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 3: So we have that issue where there are sharks species 618 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,919 Speaker 3: that are being studied by someone, but we don't get 619 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 3: to hear about it that much because their work is 620 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 3: being suppressed or undervalued. And so that's one thing. And 621 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 3: then there's also some species that just aren't as glamorous, 622 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 3: Like there are some species where people are like, ah, yes, whales, sharks, 623 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 3: I will give money to fund ail shark research. If 624 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 3: you're like, I want to study I don't know, the 625 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 3: shy shark or something random, people are like, okay, you know, 626 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 3: there's not as much flashy money people want to spend 627 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 3: money on things that are cool and glamorous and they're 628 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 3: like really excited about. People aren't really like investing as 629 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 3: much money in sharks that are like just like super cash. 630 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 3: So there's definitely like a not equitable distribution of funding, 631 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 3: and so that also drives what people choose to study, 632 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 3: because if they can't get funding to study that animal, 633 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 3: then they have to go and try to study something else. 634 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 3: And so there are some of the less charismatic i'd 635 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 3: say shark species that are not being studied as much. 636 00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 3: But I mean there's also like tons of people that 637 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 3: are working with sharks, but like I said, aren't making headlines, 638 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 3: they're not making it into the mainstream. And so that's 639 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 3: part of what MISS is trying to do is amplify 640 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 3: the work that's being done on some of those lesser 641 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 3: known researchers and areas where people are doing work. 642 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 2: In the book, you write so passionately about like what 643 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 2: attracted you to marine biology in the ocean, as well 644 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: as the challenges you've faced. What advice do you have 645 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 2: for any young people out there who maybe feel the 646 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 2: same attraction to the ocean into marine biology and are 647 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 2: considering a career in science. 648 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 3: I would say, if you're considering a career in science, 649 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 3: you should one hundred percent go for it and don't 650 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 3: let anyone tell you that you can't do that, and 651 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 3: don't doubt that you can. A lot of people think, 652 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 3: you know, whenever I say, oh, I'm a scientist, people's 653 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 3: first reaction, like nine times out of ten is oh, wow, 654 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 3: you must be really smart. And that's because we have 655 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 3: this perception that scientists are smarter than other people. And 656 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 3: I'm gonna let you in on a secret. We are 657 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 3: not any smarter other people. That is not true, because 658 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 3: what does smart even mean. I don't know, Like I 659 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 3: think there's a there's a famous quote and I can't 660 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 3: remember who said it, but it was, and i'll paraphrase. 661 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 3: Everyone is intelligent, but if you judge a fish by 662 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 3: its ability to climb a tree, it will live its 663 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,399 Speaker 3: whole life believing it is stupid. And you know, we're 664 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 3: not any smarter than anyone else. And so if you're like, oh, 665 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 3: I want to do science, but I don't think I'm 666 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 3: smart enough, throw that out, because let me tell you, 667 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 3: there are some not why scientists out there, and some 668 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 3: of them are like really high up their big shots, 669 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 3: and they're they do some things that are illogical. So 670 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 3: just because someone is a scientist doesn't mean they're smart. 671 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 3: And so you shouldn't think like I don't think I'm 672 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 3: smart enough to be a scientist. That's a myth. Scientists 673 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 3: aren't any smarter than other people. I say, as a scientist, 674 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 3: I can tell you right now I am not smarter 675 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 3: than anyone else. And then people have this this fear 676 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 3: of well, if I've become a scientist, I gotta do math, 677 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 3: and math is scary. And I struggled with math a 678 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 3: lot when I was in school. It was like my 679 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 3: hardest subject and I actually had to get through some 680 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 3: of my math classes. I basically was in my teachers 681 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 3: class after school every day, getting tutoring to make it through. 682 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 3: And so like, you don't have to be good at 683 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 3: everything to be a scientist. All sciences is asking questions 684 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 3: and trying to figure out the answer. That's all it is. 685 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 3: People put all this flare and handwaving and whatever, and 686 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 3: that's all it is asking questions trying to figure out 687 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 3: the answers. You can do that now, and wherever you are, 688 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 3: whoever you are, you can ask questions and try and 689 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 3: figure out the answers. You can do science. That's all 690 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 3: science is. Everything else is just flair. Doesn't matter what 691 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 3: alphabet is after your name, doesn't matter. If you have 692 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 3: a degree, doesn't matter, if you even know how to read, 693 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 3: you can do science. I have seen children, toddlers do 694 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 3: science where they see ants walking and they go, where 695 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 3: are those ants going? And I say, I don't know, 696 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 3: why don't you follow them and find out? And they 697 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 3: will follow the ants and figure out where they're going. 698 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 3: Guess what, that's science. They just did science. Can't spell 699 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 3: their own name, but they did science, and so that's 700 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 3: all it is. So don't be intimidated by it. Don't 701 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 3: think that you have to be somebody special to do it. 702 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 3: We're not special. We're just like anyone else people that 703 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 3: do science. And if there's a scientist that thinks that 704 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 3: they're special, they're just a little too over confident in themselves. 705 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 3: They are not any more special than anyone else. So 706 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 3: anyone can do science. Don't let anyone tell you that 707 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 3: you can't. 708 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 2: All right, well, this has been delightful. Before we close 709 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,399 Speaker 2: out here, remind everybody again that the book is out 710 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 2: now in digital, physical, and audiobook. Right did you you 711 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 2: read for the audiobook? Correct? 712 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 3: I did? I did read for the audiobook. 713 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 2: Awesome. So it's out in all formats. And then as 714 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 2: far as Minorities and Shark Sciences goes, where can people 715 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 2: go to learn more about MISS, to get involved with 716 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 2: MISS or donate to MISS. 717 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 3: Yes, So we have a website. It's Miss Elasmo dot 718 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 3: org m I s s E l A s m 719 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 3: O dot org. Elasmo short for alasmobrank which is sharks, 720 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 3: skates and rays. So if you were wondering what that was, Elasmo. 721 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 3: And we're also on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok and 722 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 3: LinkedIn so you can look us up there. 723 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thanks for taking time out of your day 724 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 2: to chat with me here today. 725 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 3: Thanks thanks for having me, Thank you. 726 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 2: Thanks once more to Jasmine Graham for coming on the 727 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,320 Speaker 2: show again. You can pick up that book right now, 728 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,879 Speaker 2: Sharks Don't Sync. You can find it wherever you get 729 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 2: your books, and it's available now in all fourmats. Thanks 730 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 2: as always to the excellent Jjpossway for producing this show 731 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 2: and if you would like to get in touch with us, 732 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 2: if you have suggestions for future episodes of Stuff to 733 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,919 Speaker 2: blow your mind, comments on past episodes, or just any 734 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 2: other comments you want to share with us well, you 735 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 2: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 736 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 2: Mind dot com. 737 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 738 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 739 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.