Speaker 1: Also media.
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: It's meet James today and I'm very lucky to be
Speaker 1: joined again by Gourdain, who's a journalist from East Kerdistan
Speaker 1: working with HENGO, the human rights organization and lots of
Speaker 1: other organizations. And we're going to talk today about what
Speaker 1: has been happening in Iran for the past few weeks.
Speaker 2: So thanks for joining Uscordain. Hello, thank you very much
Speaker 2: for inviting me again to the to the show. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm really glad to be here and I am ready
Speaker 2: to talk about all the things that have happening in
Speaker 2: the past few weeks in Kurdistan and Iran. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people, what is happening
Speaker 1: in Iran in the last few weeks has not really
Speaker 1: punched into the mainstream US media for the most part, right,
Speaker 1: So I think we should probably begin with a very
Speaker 1: basic overview of what has been happening and a little
Speaker 1: bit of why it's been happening and also where, because
Speaker 1: I think that's worth mentioning, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, So, just a few days before the Nearest Eve,
Speaker 2: on December twenty eighth, there was a spontaneous demonstration and
Speaker 2: strike in Tehran's Grand Bazaar, which is basically the center
Speaker 2: of Iran's trade and one of the most important backbones
Speaker 2: of the Islamic regime or revolution. There were strikes inside
Speaker 2: the Bazzar, and so many shopkeepers and business owners just
Speaker 2: closed down their businesses and they took to the streets
Speaker 2: and inside the shopping centers and they started chanting against
Speaker 2: the regime, and they were basically protesting the horrible economic
Speaker 2: situations and the decrease of the Iranian reol or the
Speaker 2: Iranian currency against the US dollar, which was one dollar
Speaker 2: was equal to one million point four hundred thousand Iranian reols.
Speaker 2: And then these protests quickly spread it all over the
Speaker 2: city in Tehran, and as usual this is what happens
Speaker 2: all the time, the Iranian regime forces they started attacking
Speaker 2: people and trying to control the situation, but it somehow
Speaker 2: got out of their control and the next days these protests,
Speaker 2: these strikes spread it to other cities, to other major
Speaker 2: cities from Shira's, Mashat, Isfahan, Tabriz and many other cities
Speaker 2: got involved. But in the early January, around January five
Speaker 2: to six and seven, there were major protests in cities
Speaker 2: like Malikshahi in Ilan Province and other cities in Kermanshah Province,
Speaker 2: which are basically the Kurdish provinces in western Iran. What
Speaker 2: is really unique about this is that usually when protests
Speaker 2: happened across Iran, or when there is something happening, the
Speaker 2: Kurdish regions are the first two react. But this time
Speaker 2: the Kurdish regions, like if I want to say, the
Speaker 2: West Azerbaijan Province and the San and Dutch Province, they
Speaker 2: were not really involved because a lot of people were
Speaker 2: saying that in the previous movements, especially in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: we gave too much. There were too many victims here.
Speaker 2: But the center was silent, I mean Tehran and Shiraz
Speaker 2: and these major Iranian cities. So a lot of people
Speaker 2: didn't really come out and there was nothing happening. And
Speaker 2: at the same time, this is my personal opinion, I
Speaker 2: think because there was also a heavy snowfall in Kurdish
Speaker 2: regions and it was really cold, and I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people just didn't want to go out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So this was happening in Malikshahi and other cities in
Speaker 2: Elam and Kermansha Province until I think it was January
Speaker 2: fifth that there was a really really big demonstration in Malekshahi,
Speaker 2: and it's a small city, but I can say majority
Speaker 2: of the people were out on the streets and then
Speaker 2: the Iranian regime forces started shooting at people and they
Speaker 2: injured and killed a lot of people. And the hospital
Speaker 2: in that city, that in that small city was full
Speaker 2: and they had no space anymore. So the people took
Speaker 2: the injured protesters to the center or the capital of
Speaker 2: the province in Elam City, to the Imam Romani Hospital.
Speaker 2: What happened in this hospital was that there were so
Speaker 2: many people in front of the hospital, like families and
Speaker 2: relatives of the victims. And then after a few hours,
Speaker 2: the Iranian regime forces started attacking the hospital. There were
Speaker 2: so many videos and footage that came out, and we
Speaker 2: also posted it on hangout and all over the internet
Speaker 2: that the regime forces were basically surrounding the whole building
Speaker 2: and then they started shooting tear gases inside the hospital.
Speaker 2: And then there was a video that came out that
Speaker 2: these regime forces were trying to get inside the hospital
Speaker 2: and arrest or kidnap all the injured people or if
Speaker 2: there was a dead body or something, and then there
Speaker 2: was some sort of resistance from the medical staff, and
Speaker 2: then they started beating the medical staff. And then a
Speaker 2: few days later we also posted about it that some
Speaker 2: of these medical stuff in that hospital were also arrested.
Speaker 2: The same thing was also happening in a few other cities,
Speaker 2: but this was very specific and it got very viral
Speaker 2: on social media and a lot of people talked about it.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, there were massive protests taking
Speaker 2: place in Tehran and other major cities, which like, I
Speaker 2: am twenty eight years old and I think I've never
Speaker 2: seen such thing happening in Iran. It was really extraordinary.
Speaker 2: So while these things were happening, there were also a
Speaker 2: lot of calls from people in Kurtison that they were
Speaker 2: calling on Kurdish parties to do something, to say something.
Speaker 2: So on January seven, Kurdish parties from Iran they had
Speaker 2: a meeting and they announced a call for a general
Speaker 2: strike in Kurdistan for all over Iran. So on Thursday,
Speaker 2: January eighth, over forty cities across Kurdistan they went on
Speaker 2: a strike which was really big, and it wasn't really
Speaker 2: discussed or talked about on major media, and it was
Speaker 2: somehow ignored while it was a really big action that
Speaker 2: took place there, and usually after the strikes in Curtison,
Speaker 2: this is something that's happening for years. People take to
Speaker 2: the streets and protest during the night. It happened in
Speaker 2: a few cities and there were some people injured and
Speaker 2: also killed. And then it's been over one hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty four hours. Right now as we're talking now that
Speaker 2: there is no internet connection in Iran and even the
Speaker 2: normal lines don't work. You cannot call anyone from outside
Speaker 2: of Iran. However, there are some people who have access
Speaker 2: to the Starlink Internet and a few people that have
Speaker 2: access to I don't know, some sort of strong VPNs
Speaker 2: that work for a few minutes and then they disconnect.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, I have contact to two
Speaker 2: people who have been using the SIM cards or the
Speaker 2: Internet from Iraq or Turkey. They are living on the
Speaker 2: border regions, but they also have a limited access. So
Speaker 2: this is what's happening right now. And as we were
Speaker 2: talking about this, this blackout in Iran has caused a
Speaker 2: lot of confusion, a lot of horror that the world
Speaker 2: doesn't know what's happening exactly right now. After the blackout,
Speaker 2: there were a few videos and footage that came out
Speaker 2: that were published by major activists or journalists like Ali
Speaker 2: Jo and Marriage and so many others that they receive
Speaker 2: these videos, I don't know, from the Internet, from starlink,
Speaker 2: and you can see in these videos that in a
Speaker 2: place called Carriza, it's near Tehran, It's where the Tehran's
Speaker 2: Forcenic Medical Center is located. You can see in these
Speaker 2: videos that countless of bodies, maybe hundreds or maybe thousands
Speaker 2: of bodies are just on the ground. They're in body
Speaker 2: bags and desperate family members, relatives, all traumatized, they are
Speaker 2: looking for their loved ones and it's just like it's
Speaker 2: so unbelievable. It's like movies. And apparently the regime forces
Speaker 2: have machine guned all these people. Jesus, And right now,
Speaker 2: because of the blackout, we really don't know how many
Speaker 2: people are exactly killed, how many people are injured, how
Speaker 2: many people are arrested, or these things. You know, we
Speaker 2: don't know the exact numbers, and it makes things so hard.
Speaker 2: But today, a few hours ago, there was a report
Speaker 2: from Iran International that stated that over twelve thousand people
Speaker 2: have been killed. But this also is not fully confirmed
Speaker 2: because they just got these things through some sources. And
Speaker 2: then at the same time, CBS News also published a
Speaker 2: report and said that between twelve thousand to twenty thousand
Speaker 2: people have been killed, but again this is not really
Speaker 2: fully confirmed or verified because there is no information coming
Speaker 2: out that much. At the same time, we also got
Speaker 2: reports from Kurdistan that in the city of Kermanshah, these
Speaker 2: regime forces were taking the dead bodies with bosses. We
Speaker 2: don't know how many, but we know that they were
Speaker 2: taking these bodies with bosses like we don't know how
Speaker 2: many hundreds. And from this footage that you can also
Speaker 2: see that the regime is taking all these bodies with
Speaker 2: containers with talks all over the city in Tehran and
Speaker 2: they're bringing it to the center that I mentioned before,
Speaker 2: and all families are looking for their children and their people.
Speaker 2: At the same time, I also got this direct information
Speaker 2: from someone who is from Rush in north of Iran.
Speaker 2: She was traveling from Tehran to Rush and she said
Speaker 2: that the people have burnt down most of the mosques
Speaker 2: and also the banks and other government buildings. Are also
Speaker 2: footage all over the internet that in most of the
Speaker 2: cities that people have burnt down the whole mosques and
Speaker 2: buildings belonging to the government. And at the same time
Speaker 2: she also said that in that city there are so
Speaker 2: many people that are killed. She doesn't know how many
Speaker 2: or who, but families were desperately looking for their loved
Speaker 2: ones on the streets or anywhere. This this is basically
Speaker 2: the same in almost every major city or even small city.
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly, but this is the footage that
Speaker 2: we got from tehronly that it shows what's going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's horrific.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are many many also in our organization, we
Speaker 2: got a few confirmations from these limited access that some
Speaker 2: of these people killed in Tehran are also Kurdish and
Speaker 2: from obviously from other minoritory groups as well. At the
Speaker 2: same time, there is a special case that I want
Speaker 2: to talk about. There is a person like a protester,
Speaker 2: his name is Erfon Sultani, who was arrested a few
Speaker 2: days ago, and he is planned to be executed tomorrow.
Speaker 2: We don't know if they're really going to do that
Speaker 2: or whatever, but this is a really big sign that
Speaker 2: a lot of people are warning about it, like human
Speaker 2: rights organizations, and that the regime might carry out mass
Speaker 2: executions everywhere and just to take control over the situation, right,
Speaker 2: this is also something that might happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it did execute people after the mini protest,
Speaker 1: but they didn't do a three day trial, right that
Speaker 1: they did here, They had like a show trial first
Speaker 1: that in those instant series.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they executed dozens of people after Genamini was killed,
Speaker 2: and also previously in the previous years. So this is
Speaker 2: like what what's in general is happening. And at the
Speaker 2: same time, like in diaspora in western countries, there are
Speaker 2: groups that are on the streets, like people that are
Speaker 2: calling for solidarity or whatever that can be done to
Speaker 2: help people out inside Iran. Yeah, this is like a
Speaker 2: general overview of what's happening. And as I said before,
Speaker 2: because there is no internet connection and if there is,
Speaker 2: it's very limited, nobody knows what's happening exactly. Nobody knows
Speaker 2: the exact scale of the the crimes that are taking
Speaker 2: place right now there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a little break for advertisements here and
Speaker 1: then we'll come back and talk a little more.
Speaker 2: Okay, and we're back.
Speaker 1: So if people have seen anything about this, I don't
Speaker 1: know if there are on like a x. They will
Speaker 1: have seen videos of masks burning and maybe videos of
Speaker 1: the PAK like shooting at buildings. You know, visit the
Speaker 1: videos that were kind of widely circulated before people lost
Speaker 1: access to the internet. And I think there's some idea
Speaker 1: that like this isn't armed uprising, and I think it
Speaker 1: would be good to explain to people that like that
Speaker 1: there are people clearly the present there is presence of
Speaker 1: like armed groups who apposed a regime in Iran, right,
Speaker 1: but they are not necessarily the ones like leading the
Speaker 1: charge here. So maybe we could explain a little bit
Speaker 1: about both the arm groups who are Kaddish. There are
Speaker 1: some arm groups in Balochistan as well, and like where
Speaker 1: they sit in relevance to these protests.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so far I can speak for Kurtisan, Yeah, there
Speaker 2: have I've seen also this footage that PAK or the
Speaker 2: Freedom Party of Curtisan published social media. I cannot personally
Speaker 2: confirm that, but there has always been a call for
Speaker 2: military action against the regime in the previous years, and
Speaker 2: even before Gina Amini in twenty twenty two, there was
Speaker 2: always some sort of call from the people. But right
Speaker 2: now as we are seeing, the Kurdish Party is the
Speaker 2: seven major Kurdish parties from Iran. They are not taking
Speaker 2: really a real military action because there is a big
Speaker 2: fear that if they do this, the regime might bomb
Speaker 2: the cities and kill thousands of civilians with heavy weapons
Speaker 2: and even missiles. So this is also one of the
Speaker 2: main reasons that even the parties have talked about it
Speaker 2: many times before when people called for a military sport.
Speaker 2: But of course I can also confirm this that all
Speaker 2: of these parties, all of these organizations have some sort
Speaker 2: of networks inside Iran that they are monitoring the situation,
Speaker 2: they are collecting information, and they are like connecting people together,
Speaker 2: and in some cases that I am aware of that
Speaker 2: happened in my hometown in Urmia in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: some of these parties also have been able to lead
Speaker 2: the protests, like to organized protests. So this is for
Speaker 2: now the presence of these parties. But for Baluchistan, I
Speaker 2: can also say that I think it was in October
Speaker 2: or November twenty twenty five that all these groups in
Speaker 2: Baluchustan they had a conference and they announced that they
Speaker 2: are all united and they're all working together under one banner.
Speaker 2: So they also carried out a lot of attacks on
Speaker 2: the IRGC bases and vehicles in the regions in the
Speaker 2: past few months, but so far we haven't heard much
Speaker 2: from them in the past few weeks. We don't know
Speaker 2: they're not doing anything, or if they are doing anything,
Speaker 2: it's not on the internet or it's not published yet. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is the situation right now with these groups. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, groups or parties actually like Pijak,
Speaker 2: they also have warned that this was like, if I
Speaker 2: want to say, quote unquote, don't play with fire, they
Speaker 2: were warning the Dreaming regime that they shouldn't play with fire. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is a situation right now that's going on with
Speaker 2: the parties as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very complicated for people who are not
Speaker 1: right familiar. I think like maybe we should take a
Speaker 1: step back even further and just explain I guess the
Speaker 1: concept of Iran as like a contiguous empire might be
Speaker 1: a good way to see it, right, with different ethnic
Speaker 1: groups currently under the control of one state, Can you
Speaker 1: just explain that for people if they if they're not
Speaker 1: familiar it, Because I think in the US, like Persian
Speaker 1: identity and Iranian identity by people who are not familiar
Speaker 1: with it, are conflated, right, But if you could explain
Speaker 1: the different nations that exist within the state, that might
Speaker 1: help people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like Iran as a geography is a very diverse country.
Speaker 2: So basically, the Persians, or as they call themselves, the Iranians,
Speaker 2: are the dominant group. They are the majority, but we
Speaker 2: also have the Ozari Turkish people who are the second majority,
Speaker 2: and then we have the Kurds, we have the Baluchis.
Speaker 2: Then there are Ahwazi Arabs in the south, and then
Speaker 2: there are Turkmen people, and then there are Thai li Isshis,
Speaker 2: but their numbers are really small. And at the same
Speaker 2: time there is also the Mazandharrani or the Gilak people
Speaker 2: that live in the Caspian Sea coast. There are also
Speaker 2: a different ethnic group. They have a different linguistic background,
Speaker 2: but because of the Iranian state policies of one hundred years,
Speaker 2: majority of them are assimilated and no longer carry that
Speaker 2: cultural heritage or identity. But in Kurdistan, in Baluchistan, in Ahwas,
Speaker 2: in Azerbaijan, it's it's really different, and also in the
Speaker 2: Turkmen regions. Basically this is what Iran looks like. Of course,
Speaker 2: there are other small minorities like Armenians even Georgians that
Speaker 2: migrated to like hundreds of years ago. There are also
Speaker 2: several religious groups like the Shia Muslims are the majority,
Speaker 2: with Persians and ozo Re Turks are basically the followers
Speaker 2: of this religion. And then there are Sunni Sunni Muslims
Speaker 2: who are like majority of them are Baluchis and Kurds
Speaker 2: and Hawazi Arabs or other groups. And then we have
Speaker 2: several other groups from Jews, Christians and also the Yarsanis
Speaker 2: which is a Kurdish religious minority, and they're about one
Speaker 2: million to two million people. Yeah, this is what Iran
Speaker 2: looks like.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and I think people can can be easy
Speaker 1: for them to just see it as like Shia Muslim
Speaker 1: Persian modelith right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: But I also want to add a little bit more
Speaker 2: of how this works. So, because the Iranians or the
Speaker 2: Persians are the majority, they own the state. The entire
Speaker 2: identity is evolving around them. And because of this, during
Speaker 2: the past one hundred and fifty one hundred years, there
Speaker 2: has been a policy of assimilation in every region in
Speaker 2: what's called Iran. Right now, for example, if I want
Speaker 2: to talk about the language right now, the only official
Speaker 2: language is Persian, and in the past one hundred years
Speaker 2: this language has not just been a language of communication,
Speaker 2: it has been a language of oppression and similation. And
Speaker 2: there are many regions in Iran that were For example,
Speaker 2: if I want to talk about Kurtism, there are many
Speaker 2: regions in Kermanshah and Elam provinces and other regions that
Speaker 2: used to be fully Kurdish and they used to speak
Speaker 2: Kurdish just a few decades ago, but now they are
Speaker 2: completely assimilated. The same policy was also followed strictly but
Speaker 2: heavily in Turkey and also in Iraq and also in Syria.
Speaker 2: So this is how this has been working in the
Speaker 2: past century, and how all these ethnic groups with different
Speaker 2: languages and cultural backgrounds and identities have been forced to
Speaker 2: accept an Iranian identity that evolves that turns around the
Speaker 2: Persian identity and Persian language and history. Yeah, so this
Speaker 2: is also like a general overview of the oppression if
Speaker 2: I want.
Speaker 1: To Yeah, no, I think that's pretty the right way
Speaker 1: to think. People who have listened to our coverage of
Speaker 1: ME and MA will be familiar or like I mean,
Speaker 1: this has happening in countersplaces, right, This is this is
Speaker 1: why British people will speak English now, yeah, right, like
Speaker 1: this is this is how sort of internal empire works.
Speaker 1: I wonder like we should talk about the possibilities and
Speaker 1: to an extent, the demands here, right, because in the
Speaker 1: US it seems to be that there is a binary choice,
Speaker 1: or that it's presented as a binary choice between the
Speaker 1: current state in Iran and a monarchy, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem to be an option for self governance, right, for
Speaker 1: Iranian people to have democracy, to have liberty, and that's
Speaker 1: evidently not the case, right, Like, when you have this
Speaker 1: many people in this that's how democracy works. But let's
Speaker 1: talk about the sort of the demands and then the
Speaker 1: possibilities that it being co opted and turned into another
Speaker 1: type of state.
Speaker 2: So here in these days or basically in the past decades,
Speaker 2: the main demand of people, all different ethnic groups in
Speaker 2: the geography of Iran has always been a regime change.
Speaker 2: They want this regime gone. Yeah, this is the first
Speaker 2: thing that everybody wants. At the same time, there are
Speaker 2: other possibilities that could be there. One of the things
Speaker 2: that when you look at these ethnic groups and their
Speaker 2: organizations and the people, you can see that also most
Speaker 2: of them want some sort of federalism or autonomy or
Speaker 2: self governance. At the same time, this idea of federalism
Speaker 2: and self governance or self determination is nothing that, let's
Speaker 2: say that the dominant group would accept because they don't
Speaker 2: understand it. Because for them, I wouldn't say all of them,
Speaker 2: because I cannot. We cannot generalize everyone. But when you
Speaker 2: look at it, the dominant group sees Iran as an entity.
Speaker 2: That's that's not the verse. It's just Iran and everybody's Iranian,
Speaker 2: just like the way Turkey or the Turkish government sees
Speaker 2: everything everybody's Turkish. But in Iran, they also say everybody's Iranian.
Speaker 2: We will have an election, we will choose a president,
Speaker 2: we will have a parliament, and that's it. That's what
Speaker 2: is also being let's say offered. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: there is also a call for monarchy. But this is
Speaker 2: also something that not majority of people, even Persians, majority
Speaker 2: of them don't want monarchy back because there is a
Speaker 2: huge discussion between people that here we are fighting against
Speaker 2: a dictatorship, why would we bring back another dictatorship. Overall,
Speaker 2: I can say that the minority groups majority of them
Speaker 2: for now, I would say like if the regime is
Speaker 2: going to be changed, they want self governance, but maybe
Speaker 2: in the future also independence. We don't know that this
Speaker 2: is something complicated to talk about, but for now, this
Speaker 2: is what minority groups want. But in the Persian community,
Speaker 2: some of them want to have like a republican system
Speaker 2: or whatever, but some of them also want to have
Speaker 2: monarchy back. And there are also other groups who reject
Speaker 2: both republicans and also like monarchists, and they want to
Speaker 2: have more diverse and more open system for the future.
Speaker 2: But again this is something that we cannot say how
Speaker 2: it's going to be preceded because we don't know how
Speaker 2: the situation is going to be and how these opposition
Speaker 2: groups are going to work together in the future. Are
Speaker 2: they gonna start a civil war or are they gonna
Speaker 2: sit down together and find a solution. This is all
Speaker 2: depends on how the regime falls and when, and the
Speaker 2: destruction of this regime is the biggest priority right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, we could see a situation very
Speaker 1: much like the one that's happening and folding right now
Speaker 1: in western Kurdishtewan and folding later in Iran if the
Speaker 1: regime falls right which unfortunately is just something else we
Speaker 1: have to talk about at the time, but very terrible
Speaker 1: things happening there too. Because you know, most of our
Speaker 1: listeners are in America. The way that people may have
Speaker 1: engaged with this is through Donald Trump's posting on truth
Speaker 1: social where he has said that help is coming recently, Like,
Speaker 1: let's talk about what US intervention means, like, especially in
Speaker 1: the in the context of a like the US having
Speaker 1: intervened all over the Middle East, and what that has
Speaker 1: meant and be Like the US's recent national security strategy,
Speaker 1: which suggests that basically they don't care about the region
Speaker 1: and they don't want to be involved in the region.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what that means and what it might
Speaker 1: not be the panas here people think it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in the past few weeks, Trump hass said
Speaker 2: a lot of things. In the first few days, he
Speaker 2: came out and said that if the regime is going
Speaker 2: to kill civilians, we're going to do this, and that
Speaker 2: we're going to punish the regime. And then I think
Speaker 2: it was an interview or he was on TV, I
Speaker 2: don't exactly remember, but he said something that all the
Speaker 2: people that were killed, we don't know if the regime
Speaker 2: killed them. Maybe they just were killed in the crowd,
Speaker 2: like there were like thousands of people in the regional. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like a crash. They were crushed. And this is so unbelievable.
Speaker 2: He's making these comments and then he's just threatening the
Speaker 2: regime all over it again. And just a few hours ago,
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, he said that the help is coming
Speaker 2: and he's asking people to keep fighting and keep protesting
Speaker 2: and things like that. However, we should also, like regarding this,
Speaker 2: we should talk about what people also want from Trump.
Speaker 2: This has been like something that a lot of people,
Speaker 2: again this is not the majority, but a lot of
Speaker 2: people have been calling on him or basically on America
Speaker 2: or something to do an action against the regime, to
Speaker 2: do something against the regime or damage the regime so
Speaker 2: that people can get rid of it. And right now
Speaker 2: I saw some screenshots from people who were able to
Speaker 2: get access to the internet for a few moments. I
Speaker 2: saw one there was shared on the internet that a
Speaker 2: woman from Tehran was saying that they were killing everyone.
Speaker 2: I don't know where my children are. One of them
Speaker 2: is nineteen and the other one is twenty three. She
Speaker 2: was just saying, please, please be our voice and just
Speaker 2: tell them to attack tell Trump to help. So this
Speaker 2: is also something that there is a call for attacking
Speaker 2: Iran and destroying the regime, but again we don't know
Speaker 2: if Trump is really gonna do this or not. There
Speaker 2: is also like threats coming from Europe as well in UK,
Speaker 2: but again, as you mentioned, if these attacks happen, we
Speaker 2: don't is it gonna be something like Iraq or Afghanistan
Speaker 2: or other places, or is it gonna really help the
Speaker 2: people of Iran, the people inside iron to get rid
Speaker 2: of the regime, which is also really hard to understand
Speaker 2: because Trump hasn't been really clear about all these things.
Speaker 2: On one side, he was also asked if he has
Speaker 2: any talks or connections with the so called Prince Razaphalavi,
Speaker 2: and he said no, he's a good guy, but I
Speaker 2: don't want to talk to him. But then now you
Speaker 2: can see that on Fox News, like all the Trump
Speaker 2: affiliated or pro Trump media, they are promoting this guy
Speaker 2: all the time. And at the same time, Rizzopelae was
Speaker 2: also on TV and he was on CBS and he
Speaker 2: said that he's directly in touch with Trump administration. So
Speaker 2: we don't know like what exactly. I mean, it's so
Speaker 2: hard to understand what exactly the US is going to do. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they also announced that we're going to put more like
Speaker 2: twenty five percent tariff on countries who work with her
Speaker 2: on or trade with her on. And then the European
Speaker 2: Parliament also announced that we're going to ban all Iranian
Speaker 2: diplomats from entering the European Parliament. Not made to begin with,
Speaker 2: all these comments that are coming out, they are so vague,
Speaker 2: and at the same time, there are calls from Germany,
Speaker 2: France and I think Australia too that they were calling
Speaker 2: on the citizens that are in Iran, like tourists or whatever,
Speaker 2: to immediately leave Iran. Yeah, this is also something that
Speaker 2: we don't know, like Trump is not somebody that you
Speaker 2: could trust. Yeah, ask people and Jia. And at the
Speaker 2: same time, sorry, this is also important. There was also
Speaker 2: some news that the Iranian authorities in the Foreign ministry
Speaker 2: were trying or they contacted some people from Trump administration
Speaker 2: for negotiations, but then Trump said that we will not
Speaker 2: negotiate anything. So this is all like all these contradictions
Speaker 2: that Trump is just talking about, and he's denying that
Speaker 2: the regime is killing people and people are just being
Speaker 2: killed because it's too crowded.
Speaker 1: And then you see mainly like tweeting that everyone out
Speaker 1: in the street is a Trump supporter, right, which is like,
Speaker 1: that's useful to him, that narrative is useful to him,
Speaker 1: that these are American imperialist or American whatever puppets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course that has been the regime's behavior forever. Yeah,
Speaker 2: whenever something happens, they immediately blame it on America, Israel.
Speaker 2: I don't know UK budget. It's good that you mentioned
Speaker 2: what company was saying. In the first few days. He
Speaker 2: said that, yeah, we hear you the people in bazaar,
Speaker 2: and yeah, we hear you, sorry that this is going on,
Speaker 2: and things like that. But then he immediately said that
Speaker 2: the people who are protesting, they are destroying everything and
Speaker 2: we will deal with them in the harshest way. And
Speaker 2: then the president of Iran, Pishkiki, and he also came
Speaker 2: out and he said almost the same thing, and then
Speaker 2: he started threatening people. And a few days after that,
Speaker 2: the head of the judiciary, the Iranian judiciary came out
Speaker 2: and said that like in a very very aggressive language,
Speaker 2: he said that we will deal with you in the
Speaker 2: worst ways possible, we will destroy you, and things like that.
Speaker 2: It's he posted a lot of texts on his Twitter account.
Speaker 2: His name is Moscid. So yeah, there is also like
Speaker 2: a huge online fightings between these politicians and so called
Speaker 2: leaders that makes the situation even more complicated and hard
Speaker 2: to understand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think from a US perspective, like when America
Speaker 1: invaded a Rock, right, they had a partner force in Kurdistan.
Speaker 1: When America worked in Syria, they had a partner force
Speaker 1: again in Western Kurdistan. Like, they don't really have that here,
Speaker 1: Like this is not really a I mean, the payarch
Speaker 1: is still on the American Foreign Terrorist Organization list. It's
Speaker 1: not like that like American sort of partner force boots
Speaker 1: on the ground like that that they had these other places.
Speaker 1: Likely what they would do is just bomb stuff. That's
Speaker 1: kind of the approach it most likely here in it.
Speaker 1: Bombing alone is unlikely to remove the regime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think bombing with is definitely not enough because
Speaker 2: they bombed They tried the regime hardly last year, but
Speaker 2: it is still there. Of course, it was the regime
Speaker 2: got weaker, like it weakened really bad. But at the
Speaker 2: same time, like I think, if there's gonna be something,
Speaker 2: and if there's gonna be something like Syria or Iraq.
Speaker 2: I think the Americans or the American government would possibly
Speaker 2: work with the Kurdish groups even though they are on
Speaker 2: the so called terror list, like you know, it happened
Speaker 2: in Rojova, in in in Syria. That's how they they've
Speaker 2: been working with the Kurdish groups even though they're related
Speaker 2: to PKK and PKK is on the terror.
Speaker 1: Or they removed them that they did with HTS, right,
Speaker 1: and then suddenly these guys they've transformed.
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, so this could also happen, but we don't
Speaker 2: know because it's been years. It's been decades that the
Speaker 2: US is always threatening Iran and then something happens, then
Speaker 2: they do nothing and it's just there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It reinforces the legitimacy of both states to threaten each other,
Speaker 1: right and see each other's adversaries, and to a degree
Speaker 1: use that for domestic violence against their own citizens, right,
Speaker 1: or you know, terrorism stuff. I guess finally we should
Speaker 1: just talk about one other thing that mainly said, which
Speaker 1: is like that American and Israeli shipping would become legitimate
Speaker 1: targets if you thought the Americans were involved, right, Just
Speaker 1: to explain, this is the possibilities of people if they're
Speaker 1: not familiar.
Speaker 2: Well, this is not a new thing, to be honest.
Speaker 2: They've won this before and in the previous years many times,
Speaker 2: and there were times that they attacked some US bases,
Speaker 2: like the one in Iraq, it's called Al Assad or
Speaker 2: something like that. They fortunately they attacked it a few
Speaker 2: times I guess in the past few years. Yeah, this
Speaker 2: is also really complicated because how can I explain the
Speaker 2: regime always does these threats and it might not do
Speaker 2: it at all. But at the same time, this is
Speaker 2: also something that I think that if the regime falls,
Speaker 2: and if it's the last moments, they would probably try
Speaker 2: to do something to damage the region or to damage
Speaker 2: the people as much as they can, and then they
Speaker 2: would just give up on everything and just disappear. So
Speaker 2: they could do that. But if I want to go
Speaker 2: back to to last year, we also need to understand
Speaker 2: that after the Twelve Day War, Israel also destroyed a
Speaker 2: massive amount of Iranian military basis and all these buildings
Speaker 2: and structures. But still nobody don't truly understand how much
Speaker 2: has been destroyed. But the Iranian air force is really
Speaker 2: really weak right now. I'm apparently completely destroyed, so Iran
Speaker 2: is not as strong as before. So there could be
Speaker 2: a possibility that Iran actually doesn't have the capability to
Speaker 2: attack US BASS across the region anymore. Yeah, So this
Speaker 2: could be also a possibility that they are just threatening there.
Speaker 2: They really don't have anything left anymore, or their military
Speaker 2: capabilities are completely down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or they'll do that sort of symbolic send a
Speaker 1: half dozen shah He drones and let the Americans shoot
Speaker 1: them down and they say, oh, wow, we tried, or
Speaker 1: you know, we we attack them, even though you know,
Speaker 1: most of the time they have hurt a couple of
Speaker 1: American people with them, but relatively unsuccessful. I wonder like
Speaker 1: this is obvious a situation that people will want to follow.
Speaker 1: Things are developing very quickly, and good news, good reporting
Speaker 1: on Iran is very hard to find in America. So
Speaker 1: where would you suggest people look Either you know, your
Speaker 1: own stuff, or at the sources you suggest people should
Speaker 1: look to.
Speaker 2: If I want to mention for obviously, I work with
Speaker 2: a hangout organization. It's a trusted organization. People can follow them.
Speaker 2: And there is also a journalist called Ali Jawan Mardi.
Speaker 2: He is a supervisor at Voice of America. Kurdish, Persian
Speaker 2: and Afghanistan, and these are like the sources that I
Speaker 2: personally trust. There are other organizations such as Curtis and
Speaker 2: Human Rights Network. There is also Iran Rights or Abdu
Speaker 2: Rahan Buruman Center for Human Rights in Iran. There are
Speaker 2: several organizations, human rights organizations that are constantly reporting and
Speaker 2: they are trying to reflect what's happening, and there I
Speaker 2: could say majority of them are honest and there are
Speaker 2: not trying to push for a specific narrative, especially the Palabis,
Speaker 2: because right now, if you check the media, the international media,
Speaker 2: the Iranian media such as Iran International or BBC Persian
Speaker 2: and all of these major medias even in the US,
Speaker 2: they are pushing for the monarchist and they are completely
Speaker 2: ignoring the other groups like, for example, the Kourdish people.
Speaker 2: I said, I mentioned that there was this great and
Speaker 2: big strike that happened in forty cities. It's a very
Speaker 2: big social act, but barely anyone talked about it, Barely
Speaker 2: anyone mentioned it. So I think it's for people, it's
Speaker 2: better to follow human rights organizations and do not really
Speaker 2: fall for the things that some media that are just
Speaker 2: promoting a specific person because they're just taking away the truth. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a fantastic place to finish up.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: If people want to follow you, do you have any
Speaker 1: social media or pace people can find your work.
Speaker 2: I have my personal page, but it's not really big.
Speaker 2: I just post some slides recently, and my other page
Speaker 2: curtis signing people. It got disabled unfortunately, but then I
Speaker 2: started again. Uh, I'm just posting like some updates and
Speaker 2: like slides about the important things that I find. I
Speaker 2: can also put the links there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll include them believe the podcast so people can
Speaker 1: click on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us
Speaker 1: this evening. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you very much for having me again. Yeah,
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