Speaker 1: I feel that I was in a relationship with a
Speaker 1: narcissist now that I know a little bit more about it,
Speaker 1: and after we broke up, and I'm like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: this kind of sounds like him.
Speaker 2: Narcissistic people are very oriented to what's outside of them.
Speaker 2: In fact, they've got a really uncanny ability to know
Speaker 2: what the world likes. So charm is part of that offensive.
Speaker 1: Are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use.
Speaker 2: In an early phase of a romantic relationship. They're going
Speaker 2: to engage in something called love bombing, and this can
Speaker 2: look a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1: What up, y'all? Happy Monday everyone. I'm really looking forward
Speaker 1: to today's conversation because we're going to talk about all
Speaker 1: things narcissism. We have a lot to talk about, so
Speaker 1: let's get into it. This is Cheeky's and Chill, all right,
Speaker 1: So today we have none other than doctor Rominy. She
Speaker 1: has a very long and impressive resume. She's a clinical
Speaker 1: psychologist and a professor at cal State Los Angeles, an
Speaker 1: author of several books, and she also hosts the podcast
Speaker 1: Navigating Narcissism. Oh my goodness, doctor, how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm fine, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, of course I'm excited. I'm excited to
Speaker 1: talk to you about this topic because I feel like
Speaker 1: it's a word that people use and just kind of
Speaker 1: throw around quite a bit now more than ever. I
Speaker 1: hadn't heard of this word until like literally like ten
Speaker 1: years ago, and now I feel like I hear it everywhere.
Speaker 1: So I'm glad that you're on and you can really
Speaker 1: get down to what it really is so that we're
Speaker 1: not just throwing it around so freely. So tell us,
Speaker 1: let's start off with what is narcissism.
Speaker 2: So first of all, I do want to know highlight
Speaker 2: your points that we do throw it around, and I
Speaker 2: think that's become a real problem because it's a word
Speaker 2: that has describes a lot, has a lot of power.
Speaker 2: It also has a fair amount of stigma, so it's
Speaker 2: important to use it right. So, narcissism is a personality style.
Speaker 2: It's not a disorder, it's not a diagnosis. It's a
Speaker 2: personality style. And this personality style is characterized by a
Speaker 2: person that has variable empathy. They're egocentric and selfish, They're entitled, grandiose,
Speaker 2: constantly seeking validation and admiration, They envy other people. They
Speaker 2: often can be quite controlling, They monopolize conversations, they take
Speaker 2: advantage of other people. They can be very manipulative. But really,
Speaker 2: underneath all of that stuff I'm describing, it's really a
Speaker 2: deep insecurity. And so their lives are sort of lived
Speaker 2: forever in this kind of overcompensated kind of in this space.
Speaker 2: But they're not aware of that. It's not like they say, oh, hey,
Speaker 2: it's nice to make sure I'm insecure, so I've got
Speaker 2: to do all this stuff feel better about myself. It's
Speaker 2: not that. And if you were to ever suggest, like, hmm,
Speaker 2: maybe you're doing this because you're insecure, they would rage
Speaker 2: at you. It's not fair to say a narcissistic person
Speaker 2: lacks empathy. They have again when I said variable empathy,
Speaker 2: they know what it is. They know people like it.
Speaker 2: It's very performative, so they know if they behave empathically
Speaker 2: that might get them validation. They'll use it to get
Speaker 2: what they want. They might use it early in a relationship,
Speaker 2: but frankly, once they've got what they need from you
Speaker 2: and your validation is no longer that interesting, then not
Speaker 2: so much empathy. And if they're having a good day,
Speaker 2: they feel safe, they feel supplied more empathy. On a
Speaker 2: day they're having a bad day, not so much empathy.
Speaker 2: And that jumping all around means that it's not always
Speaker 2: bad with them. You can narcissistic people are incredibly charming
Speaker 2: and charismatic and confident. So it's all this difficult stuff
Speaker 2: and this stuff that looks good. Mix it up, and
Speaker 2: then that's why you get this really confusing personality style.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, And what made you interested in narcissists?
Speaker 2: It's funny the way I got into it. It was
Speaker 2: more of a sort of I started with my research
Speaker 2: as when I was a university professor. I'm retired now
Speaker 2: from that, but as in the research I was doing,
Speaker 2: and then that kind of I was seeing it in
Speaker 2: my patients in my practice. But what was fascinating to
Speaker 2: you is two things. Was here, I'm doing this work
Speaker 2: on it. I'm like, this is a real problem. So
Speaker 2: I'm going to all the books. I'm like, how come
Speaker 2: nobody's talking about this? Like is there something wrong with me?
Speaker 2: Am I missing something? And nobody would really talk about
Speaker 2: it in the field of mental health? I said, Oh,
Speaker 2: just my educating, my clients is making a difference, and
Speaker 2: we were seeing in the research that it would have
Speaker 2: some really interesting effects on health and mental health. It
Speaker 2: was honestly only after doing that work that I realized
Speaker 2: that this was my thing, Like this had actually like, okay,
Speaker 2: this is becoming more clear to me now the stuff
Speaker 2: that had happened in my family, stuff that had happened
Speaker 2: in intimate relationships, stuff that had happened in friendships and
Speaker 2: in the workplace. Most of my life I've blamed to myself.
Speaker 2: I didn't work hard enough, I didn't try hard enough.
Speaker 2: I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough. I was like, okay, sister,
Speaker 2: hold on, maybe this wasn't you. And once I started
Speaker 2: breaking it down because I had many very successful, happy friendships, relationships,
Speaker 2: family relationships, you name it. But this subset had a
Speaker 2: lot in common.
Speaker 1: Hmm, Okay, I see, because I feel that I was
Speaker 1: in a relationship with a narcissist. I mean now that
Speaker 1: I know a little bit more about it. And after
Speaker 1: we broke up, I started, you know, reading, and there
Speaker 1: there were blogs and Instagram quotes and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my gosh, this kind of sounds
Speaker 1: like him, and it was. You know, I just always
Speaker 1: felt kind of like gas lit in a way, like
Speaker 1: it was just I'd say, hey, this hurt my feelings.
Speaker 1: Oh well, maybe that's you you're feeling insecure or I
Speaker 1: just you know what I mean, Like I started seeing
Speaker 1: certain things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not okay. And so even that sequence you
Speaker 2: just described there, you know, you're sharing a feeling, maybe
Speaker 2: you're feeling insecure, all of that. In a healthy relationship,
Speaker 2: a healthy partner would hold space for that feeling and say,
Speaker 2: you know, do you want to talk about it? Is
Speaker 2: there anything I could do to help? I'm so sorry,
Speaker 2: you know, I think you're wonderful. However, I know you're
Speaker 2: going through something. It would be a validation of the feeling,
Speaker 2: not a pathologizing of the feeling, like there's something wrong
Speaker 2: with you. You're not supposed to have that feeling. Who are
Speaker 2: you to judge r feeling? I can have, you know,
Speaker 2: and so that you're right, it's manipulation, it's gaslighting. But
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people don't even know what
Speaker 2: it's supposed to look like in a healthy relationship.
Speaker 1: And now that I am in a healthy relationship, I feel,
Speaker 1: you know, we go to therapy like you know, I
Speaker 1: see and I feel the difference. I feel like now
Speaker 1: I'm able to be the best version of myself. Like
Speaker 1: it's not I always feel like, oh my gosh, am
Speaker 1: I the problem? Am I causing him to get upset?
Speaker 1: It was always some way, somehow it would turn around
Speaker 1: and it was my fault, you know, And it was
Speaker 1: just that's when I'm like, Okay, I'm so interest in
Speaker 1: this and it's something I actually had a question for you.
Speaker 1: Is this something that people are born with or are
Speaker 1: you seeing it more now in the society that we
Speaker 1: live in with social media or is this something that
Speaker 1: you develop?
Speaker 2: Yeah, something you develop. I think that the only if
Speaker 2: you will inborn. Part of this is that children are
Speaker 2: born with temperaments. It's like a biological part of our personality.
Speaker 2: And the way temperament might show up in a baby
Speaker 2: is a baby that's difficult, difficult to souse. They're a
Speaker 2: more difficult child. They're more behaviorally agitated, they don't listen,
Speaker 2: they are very demanding of attention. They wear out the
Speaker 2: adults around them. Frankly, and it's tough because our a
Speaker 2: little kid. You'd never said child was narcissistic, But if
Speaker 2: that child with that kind of temperament keeps coming up
Speaker 2: against a lot of resistance and invalidation in their environment.
Speaker 2: It's argued that that could certainly give development to a
Speaker 2: narcissistic personality, but there's lots of other pathways too. Also.
Speaker 2: Children who experience adverse childhood experiences like trauma and neglect
Speaker 2: and inconsistent inconsistently available caregivers or parents, or any of
Speaker 2: those things. Those could set up a person for narcissism.
Speaker 2: Parents who over indulged, children who don't let them learn
Speaker 2: to regulate, who don't have good rules and boundaries, not
Speaker 2: cruel ones, like good ones like consistency, bedtimes and homework.
Speaker 2: And the child has some predictability in their life that
Speaker 2: might look different as long as it's predictable to the child.
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be a certain way. But the
Speaker 2: child has to know that there are things that you
Speaker 2: know that again are predictable, and they feel safe with
Speaker 2: the adults in their environment that could be lacking. Children
Speaker 2: who are told that they're very special and more special
Speaker 2: than any other child, that could be a factor. So
Speaker 2: you see that there's a lot of factors here, and
Speaker 2: a lot of children are exposed to those things and
Speaker 2: don't become narcissistic. So it's very clear that there's some
Speaker 2: mix of factors, but by and large, this is something
Speaker 2: that's made. A child is not born narcissistic.
Speaker 1: I see, okay, And I don't know if this is
Speaker 1: like a question for the lack of a better word, but
Speaker 1: do you see it more in male or females or
Speaker 1: it just doesn't matter, you know what I mean. Like,
Speaker 1: it's not like you could say I see it more
Speaker 1: in one or the other.
Speaker 2: So grandiose narcissism, malignant narcissism. Grandiose narcissism is sort of
Speaker 2: the kind of the show off, arrogant, attention seeking narcissism.
Speaker 2: We tend to see that more in men. However, there's
Speaker 2: a form of narcissism called vulnerable narcissism that is more
Speaker 2: about people who they're more anxious and resentful and angry
Speaker 2: at the world and victimize, and so it's more they
Speaker 2: almost look anxious and depressed more than anything. That's equal.
Speaker 2: Men and women are pretty similar in that style. So
Speaker 2: this is still evolving. Listen, enough people out there have
Speaker 2: told me they have a narcissistic mother that I know
Speaker 2: that Obviously there's narcissistic women, and enough people have that happened.
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, this isn't as small as we would think.
Speaker 2: But I do think that to your other question, and
Speaker 2: you asked it before to round it out, is does
Speaker 2: society make this happen? Society doesn't help. But remember we're
Speaker 2: all exposed to society, right, We're all exposed to social
Speaker 2: media and what the world has become and what it
Speaker 2: expects the people. Most of us are not ending up narcissistic.
Speaker 2: So again, there's specific factors that pull for that from people.
Speaker 2: And what I think is that narcissistic people use those
Speaker 2: spaces differently. So where one person may go to social
Speaker 2: media and say I just say I'm having fun and
Speaker 2: I have my thoughts about the world. I just want
Speaker 2: to share them, but they also maintain very healthy, empathic, respectful,
Speaker 2: compassionate relationships. The narcissistic person is using a space like
Speaker 2: social media to basically mainline validation. You know, they're posting,
Speaker 2: just look at me, tell me how great I am. Please,
Speaker 2: And if they don't get it, they get angry, and
Speaker 2: so they comandeer these spaces to get a psychological need
Speaker 2: mat and a healthy person that's not what's happening or
Speaker 2: should not be what's happening?
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness right now, Like, as I'm hearing you speak,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of someone in my life that's very close,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my goodness, I see a lot
Speaker 1: of those traits that you know could be you know,
Speaker 1: of a narcissist, just thinking I'm not going to say
Speaker 1: the name, obviously, but I'm just like, WHOA, what makes
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person so charming?
Speaker 2: So okay? So the charm is again, Narcissistic people are
Speaker 2: very oriented to what's outside of them. In fact, they've
Speaker 2: got a really uncanny ability to know what the world likes,
Speaker 2: what the world wants, and what you need to do
Speaker 2: to get that kind of attention. Right, So charm is
Speaker 2: part of that offensive, right, if I could be really
Speaker 2: smooth and Narcissistic people are also by and large, not
Speaker 2: in all cases, but by and large very extroverted too.
Speaker 2: So they're really good at meeting people at events, at parties,
Speaker 2: at being on the stage and being super engaging because
Speaker 2: you've got to remember, it's filling a need for them.
Speaker 2: So if you or I got on a stage so
Speaker 2: I can speak for myself, I got on stage. I'll
Speaker 2: do it because it's the nature of my work. I'll
Speaker 2: do it because I like talking about stuff. But I
Speaker 2: got to tell you, I'm exhausted after that. It's not
Speaker 2: serving a psychological need. It's my job, right. I'd be happy,
Speaker 2: or certainly'd be nice if the audience clap, but if
Speaker 2: the audience didn't clap, it wouldn't be a psychological end
Speaker 2: for me. It would just sort of be like, I
Speaker 2: did my job, I got my check, I'm going home.
Speaker 2: For a narcissistic person, that charm gets them the main
Speaker 2: thing they need, which is validation and admiration, and then
Speaker 2: they will as relationships go on, they concern themselves more
Speaker 2: with power and control, so that charm serves the function
Speaker 2: of getting them that thing that they need more than
Speaker 2: anything else.
Speaker 1: Yeah. See, then that's a thing. They can be very
Speaker 1: controlling and very you know in their relationships or even
Speaker 1: with their you know, their employees or people around them.
Speaker 1: It's just it makes them feel more power, I guess,
Speaker 1: is what I've seen, and they need that. Like you said,
Speaker 1: it's really feeling a void, and really it is in
Speaker 1: security because I think when you love yourself and you
Speaker 1: know who you are. No matter if you get the
Speaker 1: you know, the recognition or not, you still know well,
Speaker 1: I know who I am. I still love myself. Everything's fine,
Speaker 1: right AnyWho. I'm speaking out loud because I'm just starting
Speaker 1: to realize so many things as I'm speaking to you. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: are narcissists as dangerous and or harmful as we think
Speaker 1: they are?
Speaker 2: Depends? It's a complicated question. I mean, listen, danger is
Speaker 2: a subjective term if you're talking about like physical bodily danger.
Speaker 2: Here's what's very interesting. There was a research study that
Speaker 2: came out in twenty twenty one and they've done a
Speaker 2: really comprehensive overview of violence, aggression, and narcissism, and across
Speaker 2: the board, narcissistic personality was associated with all forms of
Speaker 2: aggression and violence. Now that doesn't mean that all narcissistic
Speaker 2: people are aggressive in violence. It means that when you
Speaker 2: see aggressive violent behavior, it wouldn't be it was very
Speaker 2: likely that there's a narcissistic person behind. So that's how
Speaker 2: that works. You put your focus on the aggression and
Speaker 2: it's not like, oh, here's a narcissistic person, they're going
Speaker 2: to be physically dangerous. I think that by enlarge, people
Speaker 2: who are more at the moderate to more severe levels
Speaker 2: of narcissism can be quite psychologically, maybe not dangerous in
Speaker 2: all cases, but problematic. The more severe it gets, the
Speaker 2: more likely it could be very, very dangerous and cause
Speaker 2: incredibly harmful fallout to the person in a relationship, including
Speaker 2: complex trauma and all sorts of stuff. So what we
Speaker 2: see is there's different kinds of narcissism. Number One, narcissism
Speaker 2: is on a continuum from mild to severe. The more
Speaker 2: severe the narcissism, the more risk and more danger to
Speaker 2: a person in a relationship with this person or in
Speaker 2: proximity to them. There's also different kinds of narcissism. I
Speaker 2: was talking about grandiose narcissism, sort of the arrogant, pretentious,
Speaker 2: look at me narcissists. The vulnerable, more anxious, resentful narcissists.
Speaker 2: There's also the malignant narcissist who is more exploitative, manipulative, callous, calculating, cold.
Speaker 2: They're more likely to be dangerous. They'll engage in things
Speaker 2: like coercive control where they're constantly creating a sense of
Speaker 2: fear and threat, and they financially isolate people. There are
Speaker 2: communal narcissists who get their attention by doing what seem
Speaker 2: like good things in the world. They'll be very charitable
Speaker 2: and look at me, I'm saving the puppies, I'm saving
Speaker 2: the elephants. I'm at a gala, raising so much money.
Speaker 2: But it's really to get validation. And in fact, they'll
Speaker 2: treat individual people quite badly. And so you know, as
Speaker 2: we get into all these different forms of narcissism that
Speaker 2: it'll show up differently. When we're talking about danger, malignant
Speaker 2: narcissistic folks definitely are in that space, more severe narcissism.
Speaker 2: It's in that space. At the moderate level, these are
Speaker 2: not healthy relationships for us to be in. So you
Speaker 2: know that war dangers a little bit sort of you know,
Speaker 2: it's a bit vague, but you know what I'm saying
Speaker 2: that they're not good for us. These relationships aren't good
Speaker 2: for us at the mild, mild end of narcissism, right.
Speaker 2: I always say that they're sort of emotionally stunted adolescents, right,
Speaker 2: which is fine if you're an adolescent. It might even
Speaker 2: be fine in your twin and early thirties, but there's
Speaker 2: a point when you wake up at forty or forty five,
Speaker 2: and you don't want to be picking up underwear off
Speaker 2: the floor like fifty. You should not be scrolling obsessively
Speaker 2: through an Instagram or a TikTok reel saying you know,
Speaker 2: I hope people like my video. Like no, I mean
Speaker 2: there's an and doing that to the detriment of other
Speaker 2: responsibilities and people in your family and all of that.
Speaker 2: So there's like they don't grow up. They're caught up
Speaker 2: in really superficial pursuits. They again, they kind of walk
Speaker 2: around the world eternally as an adolescent. Is that dangerous?
Speaker 2: I don't know dangerous is the right word. But if
Speaker 2: you're in an adult relationship with someone like that, they'd
Speaker 2: be very frustrating. If this is your parent, they'll be
Speaker 2: very selfish and always put their needs first. It's not
Speaker 2: great for the other people around them, but most people
Speaker 2: sort of roll their eyes and sort of view them
Speaker 2: as sort of an irresponsible, perpetual teenager.
Speaker 1: And see. And for the listeners, I think what I
Speaker 1: would tell you, guys or is I've gotten to an
Speaker 1: age where it doesn't matter who the person is if
Speaker 1: they're not giving me peace, if I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: constantly walking on eggshells. I just don't want to have
Speaker 1: those people around me, you know. And I think that
Speaker 1: that's the question you guys have to ask, like how
Speaker 1: dangerous is it? Not where they're going to take your life,
Speaker 1: God forbid. But I'm saying, like, is it really tormenting
Speaker 1: you mentally, physically and emotionally. That's a decision that you
Speaker 1: have to make. And now I feel like I can
Speaker 1: kind of tell this person has some narcissistic traits and
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily want that in my life, and you just,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's more of a personal decision.
Speaker 1: But yes, I mean, do you feel that narcissistic people
Speaker 1: can change? I mean, I'm a huge advocate of therapy.
Speaker 1: Do you think through therapy they can change?
Speaker 2: Not enough, probably to make a significant difference for people
Speaker 2: in very close relationships to them. A lot of it
Speaker 2: has to do with where the narcissism started. Okay, So
Speaker 2: let's say you have a person who's narcissistic personality really
Speaker 2: does seem to trace back to a rather traumatic origin,
Speaker 2: complex trauma and the family abuse, something like that. That
Speaker 2: would be a person who would be a great candidate
Speaker 2: for trauma informed therapy and it could very well be
Speaker 2: that addressing that trauma and then addressing the current behavioral
Speaker 2: patterns not showing up well, being entitled, being arrogant, not
Speaker 2: accounting for the feelings of others, that the connection of
Speaker 2: the trauma. We could see these patterns and sort of
Speaker 2: the post traumatic narcissism, and then tying them to current patterns,
Speaker 2: you could actually probably create somewhat meaningful change. Right, But
Speaker 2: you're talking about very long term therapy with an extraordinarily
Speaker 2: skilled therapist who is not only trauma informed, but is
Speaker 2: narcissism informed, and to do that work for years. The
Speaker 2: fact is that's not available to most people. I mean,
Speaker 2: that kind of therapy is not eight sessions. It's not
Speaker 2: you whatever random therapist you're thrown at by an insurance company.
Speaker 2: This is a skilled person. It's going to cost, and
Speaker 2: that is not available to a lot of people. Now,
Speaker 2: if you don't have that kind of origin, like this
Speaker 2: is sort of your spoiled child narcissism or something I
Speaker 2: actually don't seem much likely to change. And at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, here's what it comes down to.
Speaker 2: If a narcissistic person in real time is saying, oh
Speaker 2: my god, all right, Okay, I get it. I am
Speaker 2: such an ahole. I am horrible to people. They're able
Speaker 2: to see that we have something we could work with.
Speaker 2: That very very rarely happens, and it often takes rock
Speaker 2: bottom or scorched earth, like their life completely goes to hell.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Everybody leaves them, everyone cuts them off, they lose their business,
Speaker 2: there's a public scandal, whatever, And then they look around
Speaker 2: and there's nobody around. And some people have that awakening
Speaker 2: moment right then and say epiphany of some kind like Okay,
Speaker 2: I gotta do something. But they still have to be accountable.
Speaker 2: If you have in real time a narcissistic person who
Speaker 2: has zero accountability and continues to blame the world, the
Speaker 2: likelihood of change is almost none. And when I'm walking
Speaker 2: people through narcissistic abuse, I will tell them, I know
Speaker 2: the fantasy you've had. This person's going to change, They're
Speaker 2: going to go to therapy. The odds are not in
Speaker 2: your favor. So if you're sitting around waiting for this
Speaker 2: person to change, this could be a really long wait.
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, your life is on ice.
Speaker 1: Heck yeah, and it's freaking draining. So I'm very draining,
Speaker 1: very very very emotionally exhausting. It's just it's a lot
Speaker 1: you guys. So I mean I always say the first
Speaker 1: step to change is really wanting that and recognizing and
Speaker 1: like doctor Romney said, taking accountability. So ooh, I mean,
Speaker 1: are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use? For instance,
Speaker 1: I love bombing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so love bombing is an interesting one, right, because
Speaker 2: now we're talking about the relationships we choose. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think it's hard because some people are listening to
Speaker 2: this and thing that's actually my mom who's narcissistic, or
Speaker 2: my dad, or my brother or my sister. I didn't
Speaker 2: choose these people, like I was thrown in with them.
Speaker 2: But in a lot of narcissistic relationships, and often the
Speaker 2: ones that cause the most trouble are the ones that
Speaker 2: are with people we choose my partners most pointedly, partners
Speaker 2: sometimes friends. Right, So, in an early phase of a
Speaker 2: romantic relationship with a narcissist, they're going to engage in
Speaker 2: something called love bombing. And this can look a lot
Speaker 2: of different ways. I think we have a prototype of
Speaker 2: love bombing like big gestures and texting you a lot
Speaker 2: great first night and you go out dancing, and you
Speaker 2: stay out for hours and there's flowers waiting for you
Speaker 2: and the gifts and good morning babe, and you're on
Speaker 2: my princess and all this stuff right. Doesn't always look
Speaker 2: that way. Sometimes love bombing could just be somebody who
Speaker 2: is paying a lot of attention to something that really
Speaker 2: really matters to you, so you feel really seen. It
Speaker 2: could be somebody who tells you that no one's ever
Speaker 2: listened to my problems the way you do. You understand
Speaker 2: me like nobody's ever understood me before, and so now
Speaker 2: you feel really special. It's not like you're showing up
Speaker 2: with five dozen roses. It's that they're saying you are
Speaker 2: so amazing because you get me so amazingly, and you
Speaker 2: feel really overwhelmed by it, and they want to spend
Speaker 2: all this time with you. There's often not always, but
Speaker 2: there can often be a lot of time involved in
Speaker 2: love bombing. And the other thing that starts happening in
Speaker 2: love bombing is that there's a lot of backing and
Speaker 2: forthing at this point. In a fair number of narcissistic relationships.
Speaker 2: They'll come in and then they'll pull out, and then
Speaker 2: they'll come in and then they'll pull out and that,
Speaker 2: and so it'll sort of be this am I in,
Speaker 2: this am I not. And that's where people start getting confused,
Speaker 2: very very much start getting confused, and so that back
Speaker 2: and forth also throws people off. But the entire phase
Speaker 2: is very confusing. And the thing that's happening during love
Speaker 2: bombing is it's almost like a it's an indoctrination period.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people will say, this was an
Speaker 2: amazing time. I felt special, I felt seen, I felt
Speaker 2: a lot in common with this person. It had this big, bright,
Speaker 2: beautiful energy. Were there tiny fault lines coming up? Sure?
Speaker 2: There might be sort of you want to spend time
Speaker 2: with your friend and they're saying like, oh, I guess
Speaker 2: you're not that into me, And they'll make it about
Speaker 2: your lack of commitment. You might have to start working more,
Speaker 2: and they'll sort of look sideways at that. They might
Speaker 2: make little digs at what you do for a living.
Speaker 2: They might be a little bit sort of sneering and
Speaker 2: contemptuous of something that matters to you, and you'll not
Speaker 2: even be sure that they're joking or not right. So
Speaker 2: it'll take them in as like, what is happening here?
Speaker 2: But I really am into them? So now you're starting
Speaker 2: to make excuses, right like, oh, I'm so many to them,
Speaker 2: we're having so much fun. That didn't feel nice. But now, no,
Speaker 2: maybe I'm reading that wrong. Now you start blaming yourself.
Speaker 2: And so as that goes on with enough months, the
Speaker 2: love bombing is not gonna last forever. And what's interesting
Speaker 2: about the love bombing is it can show up throughout
Speaker 2: the relationship, even if you're with someone for many, many years.
Speaker 2: If you have a conflict and they're trying to suck
Speaker 2: you back in, they will love bombing you. But it
Speaker 2: won't be as pronounced as the first time. But little
Speaker 2: things like there'll be a gift, there'll be a gesture,
Speaker 2: they'll know you want to trash cans brought in, whatever
Speaker 2: your thing is, and that's happening, like, Okay, maybe I
Speaker 2: misread the relationship. Maybe it's not that bad. And so
Speaker 2: that's clearly obviously manipulation because what it's doing is it's
Speaker 2: confusing you. And as love bumming goes on and the
Speaker 2: person starts to pull away, a lot of people will
Speaker 2: want to rush in and say no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: wait wait wait I don't know that I want this,
Speaker 2: You know I don't. I don't want this to go away,
Speaker 2: and no, it's not great. But if you now start feeling,
Speaker 2: if you put any conditions on this relationship, it's going
Speaker 2: to evaporate.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, you guys, I'm like blown away. I
Speaker 1: feel like I've been in two narcissistic relationships. And the
Speaker 1: crazy thing is is that I think, like you said, doctor,
Speaker 1: it's there's different levels to it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: One can be super severe and you see it right away,
Speaker 1: and then right now what you just explain, it's like
Speaker 1: an emotional rollercoaster. There's there're one foot in, one foot out,
Speaker 1: they're hot and they're cold, and it's just you're constantly
Speaker 1: on your on, you know, on your tippy toes sort
Speaker 1: of thing. And that also is like, oh, it's so exhausting.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Who's vulnerable to being exploited and abused
Speaker 1: by a narcissist? Or like, is everyone equally vulnerable?
Speaker 2: Everyone's vulnerable, but everyone's not equally vulnerable, right, So it's
Speaker 2: not like this idea that some of us are completely immune.
Speaker 2: I think you could be immune if you don't fall
Speaker 2: for things like charm and charisma, but not even that
Speaker 2: because if they're not using the whole charm and charisma
Speaker 2: game but making it like, wow, you're such a great listener,
Speaker 2: you know so much. That could be quite seductive. That's
Speaker 2: not necessarily charming and charismatic. I think every like I said,
Speaker 2: everyone is vulnerable, but the folks who might be a
Speaker 2: little bit more vulnerable, certainly people who came from families
Speaker 2: where this was the dynamic, so that trauma bonded cycle,
Speaker 2: that equating love and chaos, the up and down roller
Speaker 2: coaster that you think love is supposed to feel like.
Speaker 2: That can set someone up for thinking like, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: in another roller coaster. Of course this is love, right.
Speaker 2: It's not a conscious process, but it feels familiar. It
Speaker 2: feels like something you want to fight for, So that
Speaker 2: can set someone up. Another thing that can set people
Speaker 2: up is that if they're rescuers, I can fix this.
Speaker 2: I can make this better. I need to I can.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe I didn't do this right, maybe I
Speaker 2: didn't do that right. I could do better. I could
Speaker 2: do better. The narcissistic person almost becomes a project. Those
Speaker 2: folks can get pilled in. People who are very forgiving
Speaker 2: are very vulnerable to narcissistic folks, because once the narcissistic
Speaker 2: person realizes like, I can get away with stuff in
Speaker 2: this relationship, whatever it is, then they are sort of
Speaker 2: they're in because they now know they can. And if
Speaker 2: your nature is to be very forgiving or even really
Speaker 2: optimistic and positive, that, believe it or not, can also
Speaker 2: put you at risk for these relationships. And then there's
Speaker 2: other things that could be happening in your life. Some
Speaker 2: people find that they were more vulnerable to narcissistic folks
Speaker 2: when they were going through a transition, coming out a
Speaker 2: breakup and moving to a new city, between jobs, starting
Speaker 2: a new job, starting a new school. You're maybe in
Speaker 2: an unfamiliar routine or rhythm, you're sort of off your game.
Speaker 2: That's a place where somebody comes in and starts a
Speaker 2: whole love mom, You're so great cycle. That can definitely
Speaker 2: sort of throw you off, and people might be more vulnerable.
Speaker 2: People in a rush are vulnerable narcissistic people because especially
Speaker 2: people who might feel like I feel like I need
Speaker 2: to get married or I want to have children or
Speaker 2: whatever it may be, that kind of clipped pace will say, oh, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm making too big a deal out of that. I'm
Speaker 2: making too big a deal because you want it to work,
Speaker 2: you want it to fit. So all of those things
Speaker 2: can make people a little bit more vulnerable, But I
Speaker 2: think at the end of the day, everyone is those
Speaker 2: other things just sort of amp up the odds.
Speaker 1: And when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, you
Speaker 1: do you feel like constantly, like what you do is
Speaker 1: not enough, like it's just your You always feel like
Speaker 1: you have to play kind of like catch up, like
Speaker 1: I'm catching up and trying to make you happy constantly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean people will the thing with a narcissistic relationship,
Speaker 2: it will never be enough. The nature of the relationship
Speaker 2: style is they need so much validation it's called narcissistic supply,
Speaker 2: that no one could ever provide enough to them. For
Speaker 2: healthy old they can generate their own supply, like I
Speaker 2: had a good day at work today, or what a
Speaker 2: beautiful day it is outside, or whatever it is. They're
Speaker 2: able to do that for themselves, so they're not looking
Speaker 2: to other people. We all love compliments, we all love
Speaker 2: getting a gift or something, but we don't sort of
Speaker 2: set every set our inner barometer by that narcissistic people do,
Speaker 2: so no one person could ever bring enough supply, and
Speaker 2: if you try to do that, you could actually exhaust
Speaker 2: yourself because the narcissistic person becomes literally a full time job.
Speaker 2: And that's what people will say this that I just
Speaker 2: gave my everything to this. I gave up everything in
Speaker 2: my life. I gave up my job, I gave up
Speaker 2: my friends. I did things on their schedule. I moved
Speaker 2: where they wanted, I ate the way they wanted, I
Speaker 2: looked the way they wanted. And it's never going to
Speaker 2: be enough. So I'm like, don't even play that game.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: You're just throwing money after money and getting absolutely nothing
Speaker 2: for it. So that's the narcissist problem. But a lot
Speaker 2: of people blame themselves. Well, maybe if I had been thinner,
Speaker 2: maybe if I had been home more often, Maybe if
Speaker 2: I'd just been friendlier, Maybe if I'd been more of this,
Speaker 2: Maybe if I'd been more of that. And that's what
Speaker 2: confuses the whole picture.
Speaker 1: Is there a way to coexist if you're in a
Speaker 1: relationship with a narcissist or like a family member or
Speaker 1: I want to just say, like I said earlier, if
Speaker 1: someone just doesn't bring you peace, and doesn't matter who
Speaker 1: it is, you just you have that choice of you
Speaker 1: know xnaying that person from your life. But is there
Speaker 1: a way to coexist?
Speaker 2: I would say you got to start with realistic expectations
Speaker 2: and radical acceptance. This isn't going to change, right. So
Speaker 2: there's no version of this where they're going to listen
Speaker 2: better or think you're enough, or be empathic or you know,
Speaker 2: or not be selfish. That's just that's not a thing.
Speaker 2: So part of it is the shift to like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is it. This is as good as it gets,
Speaker 2: and recognizing the limitations of the relationship, right. And once
Speaker 2: you recognize the limitations of it, you're going to stop
Speaker 2: turning it to it for something that it's not. And
Speaker 2: that's hard. This is your spouse, if this is your
Speaker 2: long term partner, this is a sibling, if this is
Speaker 2: one of your best friends. It's really hard to do
Speaker 2: that because then a lot of people will say this
Speaker 2: isn't even a relationship. I'm like, well, that's that's your
Speaker 2: conversation to have. I'm telling you this is what it is.
Speaker 2: And so I think that when you recognize you could
Speaker 2: have a very limited relationship with them, you really can't
Speaker 2: get into stuff with them. They're often baiting you and
Speaker 2: looking for a fight. That's not good for you. See.
Speaker 2: I always say it's almost like you just got to
Speaker 2: keep the topics neutral, you know, when somebody once said
Speaker 2: to me, it's like sports, news and weather. You can't
Speaker 2: even talk about the news anymore, so you're kind of
Speaker 2: loft with weather. So it's like weather or like, wow,
Speaker 2: did you hear it's going to rain next week? Or
Speaker 2: it's been hotter than usual, Like that's about as deep
Speaker 2: as it's going to get. Maybe like oh, look there's
Speaker 2: a dog in the street. I wonder whose dog that is.
Speaker 2: Or somebody's cutting down that tree. It's just not you
Speaker 2: can't go that deep with them. Or if you want
Speaker 2: to keep the trains running on time, just listen to
Speaker 2: them and not a lot.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I always say that a conversation with a narcissist is
Speaker 2: like listening to a podcast about one person. They just talk,
Speaker 2: there's no interruption. You're like, okay, hopefully it's interesting. And
Speaker 2: so that's the reality. But it does mean that simultaneous
Speaker 2: to that, you need your own supports. You need friends
Speaker 2: where you can have a deep relationship, or family or
Speaker 2: whoever it is, that if you have spaces where you
Speaker 2: can go deep with people and it feels connected and good.
Speaker 2: Those are going to really be places where you heal
Speaker 2: and feel connected and recognize that this narcissistic relationship is
Speaker 2: deeply limited. But recognizing that can bring a lot of grief,
Speaker 2: especially if this is a significant person in someone's life,
Speaker 2: like a parent or a spouse, or a sibling or
Speaker 2: a long term friend. Be like, Okay, I kept trying
Speaker 2: to make this work. You're telling me now it can't work.
Speaker 2: In a way, I feel like I'm mentally giving up
Speaker 2: on them but still showing up. But that's how you
Speaker 2: get through it. I mean, because most people can't walk
Speaker 2: away from all of these relationships. It's a luxury when
Speaker 2: you can. So because most people can't, you do have
Speaker 2: to recognize that there's going to have to be workarounds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, recognize that it's more than likely all the time
Speaker 1: going to be one sided. It has to be on
Speaker 1: the surface, and you just have to kind of ask yourself,
Speaker 1: am I willing to do this for the rest of
Speaker 1: my life? It's really a, like we said earlier, a
Speaker 1: personal decision because it is very, very draining, very draining.
Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you would like to you know,
Speaker 1: an important note that you'd like to add, doctor.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that the most difficult thing that happens
Speaker 2: to people in these relationships is a lot of self blame.
Speaker 2: Is this my fault? Did I not try hard enough?
Speaker 2: Is there a different way I could say this?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: The answer to that is no, it's really setting yourself
Speaker 2: free from this. This is their personality. It's not yours,
Speaker 2: your bad luck as you're looped into this. I understand
Speaker 2: a lot of people love folks with these personalities. I
Speaker 2: do too. And the other thing that confuses people is
Speaker 2: that there are some good days. It's not bad every day.
Speaker 2: There can be days, weeks, even months that are good.
Speaker 2: Things are going well in the narcissistic person's life, so
Speaker 2: they show up as a really nice person. It's not
Speaker 2: that these people are all bad all the time, and
Speaker 2: that's what creates the confusion, because go south, it goes
Speaker 2: south quick and it's mean, and then they might come
Speaker 2: back again. But what they'll never do is take accountability
Speaker 2: or apologize. We all have bad days, and we all
Speaker 2: have days we don't always say the best thing. But
Speaker 2: a healthy person will say that was not okay, I
Speaker 2: am very sorry. I mean, I have my excuses, but
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I did not treat
Speaker 2: you well, I am sorry, and they take responsibility and
Speaker 2: then they don't do it again. It's all understandable, but
Speaker 2: with a narcissistic person, they'll never be that accountability, which
Speaker 2: is why a lot of people blame themselves. And these
Speaker 2: relationships can really do a number on people. So healing
Speaker 2: is a real thing, and whether that's to therapy or
Speaker 2: other support groups are just doing your own work on you,
Speaker 2: it is, but it's above all else recognizing these personalities
Speaker 2: rarely change significantly enough to make a difference for you.
Speaker 2: So it's really going to be about sort of shifting
Speaker 2: your expectations and fostering other parts of your life.
Speaker 1: Wow, thank you so much, doctor Romney. Honestly, I enjoyed
Speaker 1: this conversation very much. I learned a lot, and I
Speaker 1: know that my listeners did as well. I think we've
Speaker 1: all encountered one at least once in our life, and
Speaker 1: if you haven't, now you can listen to the pod
Speaker 1: and just kind of recognize it. Is there anywhere else?
Speaker 1: I mean, you have your podcast right navigating Narcissism? Is
Speaker 1: there anywhere else that they can find you? My listeners
Speaker 1: so they can hear a little bit more about narcissism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so definitely come, but also iHeart come to the
Speaker 2: podcast Navigating Narcissism. I also have for people who really
Speaker 2: do want to focus on healing, I have a healing
Speaker 2: program and if you go to my website doctor Romedy
Speaker 2: dot com and I'm sure you have the links, you
Speaker 2: can go and check that out because it's something on
Speaker 2: a monthly program and there's workshops and questions and answer
Speaker 2: sessions and journal prompts and meditations, so there's a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff that people can work with to sort of
Speaker 2: help on their healing process. And if you do go
Speaker 2: to my website, you'll see I have many more resources, books,
Speaker 2: other recommendations, and I have a YouTube channel where we
Speaker 2: post new content every day, so it's always evolving and changing,
Speaker 2: so there's always information you can get there as well.
Speaker 1: I love that. I'm definitely going to be checking. I
Speaker 1: will thank you so much you guys. I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. And before we go, we always have
Speaker 1: our motivational quote, So the quote for today is, if
Speaker 1: you are a giver and you have a big heart,
Speaker 1: to be truly happy, you must learn when to let go. Naturally,
Speaker 1: you're going to care when you shouldn't, you're going to
Speaker 1: stay longer than you should, and you're going to give
Speaker 1: when you have nothing. Know when to stop and let
Speaker 1: things be. That is a quote. I don't know who
Speaker 1: needs to hear that, but I definitely needed that in
Speaker 1: my life quite a bit. I've learned that with obstacles
Speaker 1: and things that I've had to face. So anyhow, doctor Rominey,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on. Thank you for
Speaker 1: your time, thank you for everything I am. You guys
Speaker 1: have no idea how I feel right now. I just
Speaker 1: feel enlightened, but thank you. And again, thank you everyone
Speaker 1: for listening. And I will catch you on the next
Speaker 1: episode of Cheeks and Chill. Los kiro do you need
Speaker 1: advice on love, relationships, health emails? I'm so excited to
Speaker 1: share with you that my Cheeky's and Chill podcast will
Speaker 1: have an extra episode drop each week. I'll be answering
Speaker 1: all your questions.
Speaker 3: Just leave me a voice message betters on my midday.
Speaker 3: All you have to do is go to speak pipe
Speaker 3: dot com slash Cheeky's and Chill podcasts and record your questions.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear from you. This is a
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