WEBVTT - Narcissism 101

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<v Speaker 1>I feel that I was in a relationship with a

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<v Speaker 1>narcissist now that I know a little bit more about it,

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<v Speaker 1>and after we broke up, and I'm like, oh my gosh,

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of sounds like him.

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<v Speaker 2>Narcissistic people are very oriented to what's outside of them.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, they've got a really uncanny ability to know

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<v Speaker 2>what the world likes. So charm is part of that offensive.

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<v Speaker 1>Are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use.

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<v Speaker 2>In an early phase of a romantic relationship. They're going

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<v Speaker 2>to engage in something called love bombing, and this can

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<v Speaker 2>look a lot of different ways.

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<v Speaker 1>What up, y'all? Happy Monday everyone. I'm really looking forward

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<v Speaker 1>to today's conversation because we're going to talk about all

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<v Speaker 1>things narcissism. We have a lot to talk about, so

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<v Speaker 1>let's get into it. This is Cheeky's and Chill, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>So today we have none other than doctor Rominy. She

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<v Speaker 1>has a very long and impressive resume. She's a clinical

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<v Speaker 1>psychologist and a professor at cal State Los Angeles, an

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<v Speaker 1>author of several books, and she also hosts the podcast

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<v Speaker 1>Navigating Narcissism. Oh my goodness, doctor, how are you?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm fine, thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, of course I'm excited. I'm excited to

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<v Speaker 1>talk to you about this topic because I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>it's a word that people use and just kind of

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<v Speaker 1>throw around quite a bit now more than ever. I

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<v Speaker 1>hadn't heard of this word until like literally like ten

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, and now I feel like I hear it everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm glad that you're on and you can really

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<v Speaker 1>get down to what it really is so that we're

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<v Speaker 1>not just throwing it around so freely. So tell us,

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<v Speaker 1>let's start off with what is narcissism.

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<v Speaker 2>So first of all, I do want to know highlight

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<v Speaker 2>your points that we do throw it around, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's become a real problem because it's a word

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<v Speaker 2>that has describes a lot, has a lot of power.

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<v Speaker 2>It also has a fair amount of stigma, so it's

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<v Speaker 2>important to use it right. So, narcissism is a personality style.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not a disorder, it's not a diagnosis. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>personality style. And this personality style is characterized by a

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<v Speaker 2>person that has variable empathy. They're egocentric and selfish, They're entitled, grandiose,

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<v Speaker 2>constantly seeking validation and admiration, They envy other people. They

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<v Speaker 2>often can be quite controlling, They monopolize conversations, they take

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<v Speaker 2>advantage of other people. They can be very manipulative. But really,

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<v Speaker 2>underneath all of that stuff I'm describing, it's really a

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<v Speaker 2>deep insecurity. And so their lives are sort of lived

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<v Speaker 2>forever in this kind of overcompensated kind of in this space.

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<v Speaker 2>But they're not aware of that. It's not like they say, oh, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>it's nice to make sure I'm insecure, so I've got

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<v Speaker 2>to do all this stuff feel better about myself. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not that. And if you were to ever suggest, like, hmm,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe you're doing this because you're insecure, they would rage

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<v Speaker 2>at you. It's not fair to say a narcissistic person

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<v Speaker 2>lacks empathy. They have again when I said variable empathy,

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<v Speaker 2>they know what it is. They know people like it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very performative, so they know if they behave empathically

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<v Speaker 2>that might get them validation. They'll use it to get

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<v Speaker 2>what they want. They might use it early in a relationship,

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<v Speaker 2>but frankly, once they've got what they need from you

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<v Speaker 2>and your validation is no longer that interesting, then not

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<v Speaker 2>so much empathy. And if they're having a good day,

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<v Speaker 2>they feel safe, they feel supplied more empathy. On a

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<v Speaker 2>day they're having a bad day, not so much empathy.

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<v Speaker 2>And that jumping all around means that it's not always

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<v Speaker 2>bad with them. You can narcissistic people are incredibly charming

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<v Speaker 2>and charismatic and confident. So it's all this difficult stuff

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<v Speaker 2>and this stuff that looks good. Mix it up, and

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<v Speaker 2>then that's why you get this really confusing personality style.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my goodness, And what made you interested in narcissists?

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<v Speaker 2>It's funny the way I got into it. It was

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<v Speaker 2>more of a sort of I started with my research

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<v Speaker 2>as when I was a university professor. I'm retired now

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<v Speaker 2>from that, but as in the research I was doing,

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<v Speaker 2>and then that kind of I was seeing it in

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<v Speaker 2>my patients in my practice. But what was fascinating to

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<v Speaker 2>you is two things. Was here, I'm doing this work

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<v Speaker 2>on it. I'm like, this is a real problem. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to all the books. I'm like, how come

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<v Speaker 2>nobody's talking about this? Like is there something wrong with me?

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<v Speaker 2>Am I missing something? And nobody would really talk about

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<v Speaker 2>it in the field of mental health? I said, Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>just my educating, my clients is making a difference, and

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<v Speaker 2>we were seeing in the research that it would have

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<v Speaker 2>some really interesting effects on health and mental health. It

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<v Speaker 2>was honestly only after doing that work that I realized

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<v Speaker 2>that this was my thing, Like this had actually like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>this is becoming more clear to me now the stuff

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<v Speaker 2>that had happened in my family, stuff that had happened

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<v Speaker 2>in intimate relationships, stuff that had happened in friendships and

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<v Speaker 2>in the workplace. Most of my life I've blamed to myself.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't work hard enough, I didn't try hard enough.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough. I was like, okay, sister,

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<v Speaker 2>hold on, maybe this wasn't you. And once I started

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<v Speaker 2>breaking it down because I had many very successful, happy friendships, relationships,

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<v Speaker 2>family relationships, you name it. But this subset had a

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<v Speaker 2>lot in common.

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<v Speaker 1>Hmm, Okay, I see, because I feel that I was

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<v Speaker 1>in a relationship with a narcissist. I mean now that

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<v Speaker 1>I know a little bit more about it. And after

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<v Speaker 1>we broke up, I started, you know, reading, and there

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<v Speaker 1>there were blogs and Instagram quotes and stuff like that,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, oh my gosh, this kind of sounds

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<v Speaker 1>like him, and it was. You know, I just always

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<v Speaker 1>felt kind of like gas lit in a way, like

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<v Speaker 1>it was just I'd say, hey, this hurt my feelings.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh well, maybe that's you you're feeling insecure or I

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<v Speaker 1>just you know what I mean, Like I started seeing

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<v Speaker 1>certain things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's not okay. And so even that sequence you

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<v Speaker 2>just described there, you know, you're sharing a feeling, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>you're feeling insecure, all of that. In a healthy relationship,

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<v Speaker 2>a healthy partner would hold space for that feeling and say,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, do you want to talk about it? Is

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<v Speaker 2>there anything I could do to help? I'm so sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I think you're wonderful. However, I know you're

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<v Speaker 2>going through something. It would be a validation of the feeling,

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<v Speaker 2>not a pathologizing of the feeling, like there's something wrong

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<v Speaker 2>with you. You're not supposed to have that feeling. Who are

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<v Speaker 2>you to judge r feeling? I can have, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and so that you're right, it's manipulation, it's gaslighting. But

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<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of people don't even know what

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<v Speaker 2>it's supposed to look like in a healthy relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>And now that I am in a healthy relationship, I feel,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we go to therapy like you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>see and I feel the difference. I feel like now

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<v Speaker 1>I'm able to be the best version of myself. Like

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<v Speaker 1>it's not I always feel like, oh my gosh, am

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<v Speaker 1>I the problem? Am I causing him to get upset?

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<v Speaker 1>It was always some way, somehow it would turn around

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<v Speaker 1>and it was my fault, you know, And it was

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<v Speaker 1>just that's when I'm like, Okay, I'm so interest in

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<v Speaker 1>this and it's something I actually had a question for you.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this something that people are born with or are

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<v Speaker 1>you seeing it more now in the society that we

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<v Speaker 1>live in with social media or is this something that

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<v Speaker 1>you develop?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, something you develop. I think that the only if

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<v Speaker 2>you will inborn. Part of this is that children are

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<v Speaker 2>born with temperaments. It's like a biological part of our personality.

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<v Speaker 2>And the way temperament might show up in a baby

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<v Speaker 2>is a baby that's difficult, difficult to souse. They're a

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<v Speaker 2>more difficult child. They're more behaviorally agitated, they don't listen,

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<v Speaker 2>they are very demanding of attention. They wear out the

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<v Speaker 2>adults around them. Frankly, and it's tough because our a

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<v Speaker 2>little kid. You'd never said child was narcissistic, But if

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<v Speaker 2>that child with that kind of temperament keeps coming up

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<v Speaker 2>against a lot of resistance and invalidation in their environment.

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<v Speaker 2>It's argued that that could certainly give development to a

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<v Speaker 2>narcissistic personality, but there's lots of other pathways too. Also.

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<v Speaker 2>Children who experience adverse childhood experiences like trauma and neglect

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<v Speaker 2>and inconsistent inconsistently available caregivers or parents, or any of

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<v Speaker 2>those things. Those could set up a person for narcissism.

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<v Speaker 2>Parents who over indulged, children who don't let them learn

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<v Speaker 2>to regulate, who don't have good rules and boundaries, not

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<v Speaker 2>cruel ones, like good ones like consistency, bedtimes and homework.

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<v Speaker 2>And the child has some predictability in their life that

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<v Speaker 2>might look different as long as it's predictable to the child.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't have to be a certain way. But the

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<v Speaker 2>child has to know that there are things that you

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<v Speaker 2>know that again are predictable, and they feel safe with

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<v Speaker 2>the adults in their environment that could be lacking. Children

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<v Speaker 2>who are told that they're very special and more special

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<v Speaker 2>than any other child, that could be a factor. So

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<v Speaker 2>you see that there's a lot of factors here, and

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of children are exposed to those things and

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<v Speaker 2>don't become narcissistic. So it's very clear that there's some

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<v Speaker 2>mix of factors, but by and large, this is something

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<v Speaker 2>that's made. A child is not born narcissistic.

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<v Speaker 1>I see, okay, And I don't know if this is

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<v Speaker 1>like a question for the lack of a better word, but

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<v Speaker 1>do you see it more in male or females or

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<v Speaker 1>it just doesn't matter, you know what I mean. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not like you could say I see it more

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<v Speaker 1>in one or the other.

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<v Speaker 2>So grandiose narcissism, malignant narcissism. Grandiose narcissism is sort of

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of the show off, arrogant, attention seeking narcissism.

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<v Speaker 2>We tend to see that more in men. However, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a form of narcissism called vulnerable narcissism that is more

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<v Speaker 2>about people who they're more anxious and resentful and angry

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<v Speaker 2>at the world and victimize, and so it's more they

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<v Speaker 2>almost look anxious and depressed more than anything. That's equal.

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<v Speaker 2>Men and women are pretty similar in that style. So

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<v Speaker 2>this is still evolving. Listen, enough people out there have

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<v Speaker 2>told me they have a narcissistic mother that I know

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<v Speaker 2>that Obviously there's narcissistic women, and enough people have that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, Okay, this isn't as small as we would think.

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<v Speaker 2>But I do think that to your other question, and

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<v Speaker 2>you asked it before to round it out, is does

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<v Speaker 2>society make this happen? Society doesn't help. But remember we're

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<v Speaker 2>all exposed to society, right, We're all exposed to social

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<v Speaker 2>media and what the world has become and what it

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<v Speaker 2>expects the people. Most of us are not ending up narcissistic.

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<v Speaker 2>So again, there's specific factors that pull for that from people.

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<v Speaker 2>And what I think is that narcissistic people use those

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<v Speaker 2>spaces differently. So where one person may go to social

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<v Speaker 2>media and say I just say I'm having fun and

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<v Speaker 2>I have my thoughts about the world. I just want

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<v Speaker 2>to share them, but they also maintain very healthy, empathic, respectful,

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<v Speaker 2>compassionate relationships. The narcissistic person is using a space like

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<v Speaker 2>social media to basically mainline validation. You know, they're posting,

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<v Speaker 2>just look at me, tell me how great I am. Please,

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<v Speaker 2>And if they don't get it, they get angry, and

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<v Speaker 2>so they comandeer these spaces to get a psychological need

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<v Speaker 2>mat and a healthy person that's not what's happening or

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<v Speaker 2>should not be what's happening?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my goodness right now, Like, as I'm hearing you speak,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking of someone in my life that's very close,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, oh my goodness, I see a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of those traits that you know could be you know,

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<v Speaker 1>of a narcissist, just thinking I'm not going to say

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<v Speaker 1>the name, obviously, but I'm just like, WHOA, what makes

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<v Speaker 1>a narcissistic person so charming?

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<v Speaker 2>So okay? So the charm is again, Narcissistic people are

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<v Speaker 2>very oriented to what's outside of them. In fact, they've

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<v Speaker 2>got a really uncanny ability to know what the world likes,

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<v Speaker 2>what the world wants, and what you need to do

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<v Speaker 2>to get that kind of attention. Right, So charm is

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<v Speaker 2>part of that offensive, right, if I could be really

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<v Speaker 2>smooth and Narcissistic people are also by and large, not

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<v Speaker 2>in all cases, but by and large very extroverted too.

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<v Speaker 2>So they're really good at meeting people at events, at parties,

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<v Speaker 2>at being on the stage and being super engaging because

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<v Speaker 2>you've got to remember, it's filling a need for them.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you or I got on a stage so

0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I can speak for myself, I got on stage. I'll

0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.080
<v Speaker 2>do it because it's the nature of my work. I'll

0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.160
<v Speaker 2>do it because I like talking about stuff. But I

0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.120
<v Speaker 2>got to tell you, I'm exhausted after that. It's not

0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.000
<v Speaker 2>serving a psychological need. It's my job, right. I'd be happy,

0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.160
<v Speaker 2>or certainly'd be nice if the audience clap, but if

0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.319
<v Speaker 2>the audience didn't clap, it wouldn't be a psychological end

0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:25.760
<v Speaker 2>for me. It would just sort of be like, I

0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.679
<v Speaker 2>did my job, I got my check, I'm going home.

0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.560
<v Speaker 2>For a narcissistic person, that charm gets them the main

0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:35.959
<v Speaker 2>thing they need, which is validation and admiration, and then

0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.720
<v Speaker 2>they will as relationships go on, they concern themselves more

0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.200
<v Speaker 2>with power and control, so that charm serves the function

0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.280
<v Speaker 2>of getting them that thing that they need more than

0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:44.920
<v Speaker 2>anything else.

0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. See, then that's a thing. They can be very

0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.720
<v Speaker 1>controlling and very you know in their relationships or even

0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.040
<v Speaker 1>with their you know, their employees or people around them.

0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.800
<v Speaker 1>It's just it makes them feel more power, I guess,

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.160
<v Speaker 1>is what I've seen, and they need that. Like you said,

0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:07.439
<v Speaker 1>it's really feeling a void, and really it is in

0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.559
<v Speaker 1>security because I think when you love yourself and you

0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.520
<v Speaker 1>know who you are. No matter if you get the

0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, the recognition or not, you still know well,

0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.160
<v Speaker 1>I know who I am. I still love myself. Everything's fine,

0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.800
<v Speaker 1>right AnyWho. I'm speaking out loud because I'm just starting

0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 1>to realize so many things as I'm speaking to you. Okay, So,

0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.880
<v Speaker 1>are narcissists as dangerous and or harmful as we think

0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:28.280
<v Speaker 1>they are?

0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.079
<v Speaker 2>Depends? It's a complicated question. I mean, listen, danger is

0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.679
<v Speaker 2>a subjective term if you're talking about like physical bodily danger.

0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Here's what's very interesting. There was a research study that

0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.600
<v Speaker 2>came out in twenty twenty one and they've done a

0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:44.319
<v Speaker 2>really comprehensive overview of violence, aggression, and narcissism, and across

0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:49.599
<v Speaker 2>the board, narcissistic personality was associated with all forms of

0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.160
<v Speaker 2>aggression and violence. Now that doesn't mean that all narcissistic

0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.160
<v Speaker 2>people are aggressive in violence. It means that when you

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.240
<v Speaker 2>see aggressive violent behavior, it wouldn't be it was very

0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.000
<v Speaker 2>likely that there's a narcissistic person behind. So that's how

0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:02.839
<v Speaker 2>that works. You put your focus on the aggression and

0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 2>it's not like, oh, here's a narcissistic person, they're going

0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.199
<v Speaker 2>to be physically dangerous. I think that by enlarge, people

0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.000
<v Speaker 2>who are more at the moderate to more severe levels

0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.679
<v Speaker 2>of narcissism can be quite psychologically, maybe not dangerous in

0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.640
<v Speaker 2>all cases, but problematic. The more severe it gets, the

0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.200
<v Speaker 2>more likely it could be very, very dangerous and cause

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.320
<v Speaker 2>incredibly harmful fallout to the person in a relationship, including

0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.160
<v Speaker 2>complex trauma and all sorts of stuff. So what we

0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.000
<v Speaker 2>see is there's different kinds of narcissism. Number One, narcissism

0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.960
<v Speaker 2>is on a continuum from mild to severe. The more

0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.840
<v Speaker 2>severe the narcissism, the more risk and more danger to

0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.240
<v Speaker 2>a person in a relationship with this person or in

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>proximity to them. There's also different kinds of narcissism. I

0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.920
<v Speaker 2>was talking about grandiose narcissism, sort of the arrogant, pretentious,

0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.760
<v Speaker 2>look at me narcissists. The vulnerable, more anxious, resentful narcissists.

0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:57.200
<v Speaker 2>There's also the malignant narcissist who is more exploitative, manipulative, callous, calculating, cold.

0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.240
<v Speaker 2>They're more likely to be dangerous. They'll engage in things

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.640
<v Speaker 2>like coercive control where they're constantly creating a sense of

0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 2>fear and threat, and they financially isolate people. There are

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:12.720
<v Speaker 2>communal narcissists who get their attention by doing what seem

0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.160
<v Speaker 2>like good things in the world. They'll be very charitable

0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.600
<v Speaker 2>and look at me, I'm saving the puppies, I'm saving

0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 2>the elephants. I'm at a gala, raising so much money.

0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.040
<v Speaker 2>But it's really to get validation. And in fact, they'll

0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.080
<v Speaker 2>treat individual people quite badly. And so you know, as

0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.160
<v Speaker 2>we get into all these different forms of narcissism that

0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.120
<v Speaker 2>it'll show up differently. When we're talking about danger, malignant

0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>narcissistic folks definitely are in that space, more severe narcissism.

0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.520
<v Speaker 2>It's in that space. At the moderate level, these are

0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:43.200
<v Speaker 2>not healthy relationships for us to be in. So you

0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 2>know that war dangers a little bit sort of you know,

0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.520
<v Speaker 2>it's a bit vague, but you know what I'm saying

0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.120
<v Speaker 2>that they're not good for us. These relationships aren't good

0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.240
<v Speaker 2>for us at the mild, mild end of narcissism, right.

0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.520
<v Speaker 2>I always say that they're sort of emotionally stunted adolescents, right,

0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.240
<v Speaker 2>which is fine if you're an adolescent. It might even

0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:01.760
<v Speaker 2>be fine in your twin and early thirties, but there's

0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:03.840
<v Speaker 2>a point when you wake up at forty or forty five,

0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:06.280
<v Speaker 2>and you don't want to be picking up underwear off

0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.720
<v Speaker 2>the floor like fifty. You should not be scrolling obsessively

0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.800
<v Speaker 2>through an Instagram or a TikTok reel saying you know,

0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.520
<v Speaker 2>I hope people like my video. Like no, I mean

0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.280
<v Speaker 2>there's an and doing that to the detriment of other

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 2>responsibilities and people in your family and all of that.

0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.080
<v Speaker 2>So there's like they don't grow up. They're caught up

0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 2>in really superficial pursuits. They again, they kind of walk

0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.360
<v Speaker 2>around the world eternally as an adolescent. Is that dangerous?

0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know dangerous is the right word. But if

0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.480
<v Speaker 2>you're in an adult relationship with someone like that, they'd

0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.640
<v Speaker 2>be very frustrating. If this is your parent, they'll be

0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.440
<v Speaker 2>very selfish and always put their needs first. It's not

0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.640
<v Speaker 2>great for the other people around them, but most people

0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:45.840
<v Speaker 2>sort of roll their eyes and sort of view them

0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 2>as sort of an irresponsible, perpetual teenager.

0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 1>And see. And for the listeners, I think what I

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:56.080
<v Speaker 1>would tell you, guys or is I've gotten to an

0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.080
<v Speaker 1>age where it doesn't matter who the person is if

0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:00.960
<v Speaker 1>they're not giving me peace, if I feel like I'm

0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:06.320
<v Speaker 1>constantly walking on eggshells. I just don't want to have

0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.520
<v Speaker 1>those people around me, you know. And I think that

0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.240
<v Speaker 1>that's the question you guys have to ask, like how

0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.280
<v Speaker 1>dangerous is it? Not where they're going to take your life,

0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.120
<v Speaker 1>God forbid. But I'm saying, like, is it really tormenting

0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.679
<v Speaker 1>you mentally, physically and emotionally. That's a decision that you

0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 1>have to make. And now I feel like I can

0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.919
<v Speaker 1>kind of tell this person has some narcissistic traits and

0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't necessarily want that in my life, and you just,

0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:30.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think it's more of a personal decision.

0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.920
<v Speaker 1>But yes, I mean, do you feel that narcissistic people

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.760
<v Speaker 1>can change? I mean, I'm a huge advocate of therapy.

0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Do you think through therapy they can change?

0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 2>Not enough, probably to make a significant difference for people

0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.199
<v Speaker 2>in very close relationships to them. A lot of it

0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.119
<v Speaker 2>has to do with where the narcissism started. Okay, So

0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.520
<v Speaker 2>let's say you have a person who's narcissistic personality really

0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.320
<v Speaker 2>does seem to trace back to a rather traumatic origin,

0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:02.239
<v Speaker 2>complex trauma and the family abuse, something like that. That

0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.880
<v Speaker 2>would be a person who would be a great candidate

0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.199
<v Speaker 2>for trauma informed therapy and it could very well be

0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.080
<v Speaker 2>that addressing that trauma and then addressing the current behavioral

0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:17.080
<v Speaker 2>patterns not showing up well, being entitled, being arrogant, not

0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.879
<v Speaker 2>accounting for the feelings of others, that the connection of

0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.240
<v Speaker 2>the trauma. We could see these patterns and sort of

0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 2>the post traumatic narcissism, and then tying them to current patterns,

0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 2>you could actually probably create somewhat meaningful change. Right, But

0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.560
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about very long term therapy with an extraordinarily

0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.600
<v Speaker 2>skilled therapist who is not only trauma informed, but is

0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.720
<v Speaker 2>narcissism informed, and to do that work for years. The

0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.560
<v Speaker 2>fact is that's not available to most people. I mean,

0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.240
<v Speaker 2>that kind of therapy is not eight sessions. It's not

0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.040
<v Speaker 2>you whatever random therapist you're thrown at by an insurance company.

0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.959
<v Speaker 2>This is a skilled person. It's going to cost, and

0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.640
<v Speaker 2>that is not available to a lot of people. Now,

0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.000
<v Speaker 2>if you don't have that kind of origin, like this

0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.159
<v Speaker 2>is sort of your spoiled child narcissism or something I

0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.399
<v Speaker 2>actually don't seem much likely to change. And at the

0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:04.159
<v Speaker 2>end of the day, here's what it comes down to.

0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.640
<v Speaker 2>If a narcissistic person in real time is saying, oh

0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.080
<v Speaker 2>my god, all right, Okay, I get it. I am

0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.679
<v Speaker 2>such an ahole. I am horrible to people. They're able

0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.120
<v Speaker 2>to see that we have something we could work with.

0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.560
<v Speaker 2>That very very rarely happens, and it often takes rock

0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.880
<v Speaker 2>bottom or scorched earth, like their life completely goes to hell.

0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.679
<v Speaker 2>Everybody leaves them, everyone cuts them off, they lose their business,

0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.840
<v Speaker 2>there's a public scandal, whatever, And then they look around

0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:35.920
<v Speaker 2>and there's nobody around. And some people have that awakening

0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.760
<v Speaker 2>moment right then and say epiphany of some kind like Okay,

0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.840
<v Speaker 2>I gotta do something. But they still have to be accountable.

0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 2>If you have in real time a narcissistic person who

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.920
<v Speaker 2>has zero accountability and continues to blame the world, the

0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.880
<v Speaker 2>likelihood of change is almost none. And when I'm walking

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.800
<v Speaker 2>people through narcissistic abuse, I will tell them, I know

0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.680
<v Speaker 2>the fantasy you've had. This person's going to change, They're

0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.159
<v Speaker 2>going to go to therapy. The odds are not in

0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.840
<v Speaker 2>your favor. So if you're sitting around waiting for this

0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:07.640
<v Speaker 2>person to change, this could be a really long wait.

0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.120
<v Speaker 2>And meanwhile, your life is on ice.

0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.240
<v Speaker 1>Heck yeah, and it's freaking draining. So I'm very draining,

0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:18.120
<v Speaker 1>very very very emotionally exhausting. It's just it's a lot

0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.200
<v Speaker 1>you guys. So I mean I always say the first

0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.920
<v Speaker 1>step to change is really wanting that and recognizing and

0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:30.040
<v Speaker 1>like doctor Romney said, taking accountability. So ooh, I mean,

0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:34.399
<v Speaker 1>are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use? For instance,

0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:35.480
<v Speaker 1>I love bombing.

0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so love bombing is an interesting one, right, because

0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.080
<v Speaker 2>now we're talking about the relationships we choose. I mean,

0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.359
<v Speaker 2>I think it's hard because some people are listening to

0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.840
<v Speaker 2>this and thing that's actually my mom who's narcissistic, or

0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.200
<v Speaker 2>my dad, or my brother or my sister. I didn't

0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.440
<v Speaker 2>choose these people, like I was thrown in with them.

0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 2>But in a lot of narcissistic relationships, and often the

0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.600
<v Speaker 2>ones that cause the most trouble are the ones that

0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:01.200
<v Speaker 2>are with people we choose my partners most pointedly, partners

0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:04.800
<v Speaker 2>sometimes friends. Right, So, in an early phase of a

0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.399
<v Speaker 2>romantic relationship with a narcissist, they're going to engage in

0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.320
<v Speaker 2>something called love bombing. And this can look a lot

0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:13.679
<v Speaker 2>of different ways. I think we have a prototype of

0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.200
<v Speaker 2>love bombing like big gestures and texting you a lot

0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.080
<v Speaker 2>great first night and you go out dancing, and you

0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.679
<v Speaker 2>stay out for hours and there's flowers waiting for you

0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.080
<v Speaker 2>and the gifts and good morning babe, and you're on

0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.520
<v Speaker 2>my princess and all this stuff right. Doesn't always look

0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that way. Sometimes love bombing could just be somebody who

0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 2>is paying a lot of attention to something that really

0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.080
<v Speaker 2>really matters to you, so you feel really seen. It

0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.440
<v Speaker 2>could be somebody who tells you that no one's ever

0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.119
<v Speaker 2>listened to my problems the way you do. You understand

0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.840
<v Speaker 2>me like nobody's ever understood me before, and so now

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.760
<v Speaker 2>you feel really special. It's not like you're showing up

0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.760
<v Speaker 2>with five dozen roses. It's that they're saying you are

0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:57.520
<v Speaker 2>so amazing because you get me so amazingly, and you

0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.400
<v Speaker 2>feel really overwhelmed by it, and they want to spend

0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.800
<v Speaker 2>all this time with you. There's often not always, but

0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.399
<v Speaker 2>there can often be a lot of time involved in

0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:07.800
<v Speaker 2>love bombing. And the other thing that starts happening in

0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:09.679
<v Speaker 2>love bombing is that there's a lot of backing and

0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.320
<v Speaker 2>forthing at this point. In a fair number of narcissistic relationships.

0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.159
<v Speaker 2>They'll come in and then they'll pull out, and then

0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.639
<v Speaker 2>they'll come in and then they'll pull out and that,

0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:21.760
<v Speaker 2>and so it'll sort of be this am I in,

0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:24.959
<v Speaker 2>this am I not. And that's where people start getting confused,

0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.840
<v Speaker 2>very very much start getting confused, and so that back

0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.919
<v Speaker 2>and forth also throws people off. But the entire phase

0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:34.280
<v Speaker 2>is very confusing. And the thing that's happening during love

0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:37.480
<v Speaker 2>bombing is it's almost like a it's an indoctrination period.

0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:39.760
<v Speaker 2>And a lot of people will say, this was an

0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.040
<v Speaker 2>amazing time. I felt special, I felt seen, I felt

0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot in common with this person. It had this big, bright,

0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:50.520
<v Speaker 2>beautiful energy. Were there tiny fault lines coming up? Sure?

0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:53.200
<v Speaker 2>There might be sort of you want to spend time

0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.320
<v Speaker 2>with your friend and they're saying like, oh, I guess

0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:58.080
<v Speaker 2>you're not that into me, And they'll make it about

0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.320
<v Speaker 2>your lack of commitment. You might have to start working more,

0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.200
<v Speaker 2>and they'll sort of look sideways at that. They might

0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:06.480
<v Speaker 2>make little digs at what you do for a living.

0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:08.840
<v Speaker 2>They might be a little bit sort of sneering and

0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.080
<v Speaker 2>contemptuous of something that matters to you, and you'll not

0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:14.359
<v Speaker 2>even be sure that they're joking or not right. So

0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:16.560
<v Speaker 2>it'll take them in as like, what is happening here?

0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.359
<v Speaker 2>But I really am into them? So now you're starting

0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.439
<v Speaker 2>to make excuses, right like, oh, I'm so many to them,

0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.720
<v Speaker 2>we're having so much fun. That didn't feel nice. But now, no,

0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:28.440
<v Speaker 2>maybe I'm reading that wrong. Now you start blaming yourself.

0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.399
<v Speaker 2>And so as that goes on with enough months, the

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.119
<v Speaker 2>love bombing is not gonna last forever. And what's interesting

0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:36.840
<v Speaker 2>about the love bombing is it can show up throughout

0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.760
<v Speaker 2>the relationship, even if you're with someone for many, many years.

0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:42.680
<v Speaker 2>If you have a conflict and they're trying to suck

0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:44.879
<v Speaker 2>you back in, they will love bombing you. But it

0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 2>won't be as pronounced as the first time. But little

0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:49.720
<v Speaker 2>things like there'll be a gift, there'll be a gesture,

0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:51.919
<v Speaker 2>they'll know you want to trash cans brought in, whatever

0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:54.720
<v Speaker 2>your thing is, and that's happening, like, Okay, maybe I

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:58.560
<v Speaker 2>misread the relationship. Maybe it's not that bad. And so

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.720
<v Speaker 2>that's clearly obviously manipulation because what it's doing is it's

0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:05.840
<v Speaker 2>confusing you. And as love bumming goes on and the

0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:07.920
<v Speaker 2>person starts to pull away, a lot of people will

0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:09.600
<v Speaker 2>want to rush in and say no, no, no, no, no,

0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:11.520
<v Speaker 2>wait wait wait I don't know that I want this,

0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:13.480
<v Speaker 2>You know I don't. I don't want this to go away,

0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:16.240
<v Speaker 2>and no, it's not great. But if you now start feeling,

0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 2>if you put any conditions on this relationship, it's going

0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:20.520
<v Speaker 2>to evaporate.

0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:26.639
<v Speaker 1>Oh my goodness, you guys, I'm like blown away. I

0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.960
<v Speaker 1>feel like I've been in two narcissistic relationships. And the

0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:32.800
<v Speaker 1>crazy thing is is that I think, like you said, doctor,

0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:35.880
<v Speaker 1>it's there's different levels to it, you know what I mean.

0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:38.639
<v Speaker 1>One can be super severe and you see it right away,

0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.159
<v Speaker 1>and then right now what you just explain, it's like

0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:44.080
<v Speaker 1>an emotional rollercoaster. There's there're one foot in, one foot out,

0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:47.159
<v Speaker 1>they're hot and they're cold, and it's just you're constantly

0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.080
<v Speaker 1>on your on, you know, on your tippy toes sort

0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:52.480
<v Speaker 1>of thing. And that also is like, oh, it's so exhausting.

0:24:52.880 --> 0:25:02.679
<v Speaker 1>Oh my goodness. Who's vulnerable to being exploited and abused

0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:05.400
<v Speaker 1>by a narcissist? Or like, is everyone equally vulnerable?

0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:08.680
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's vulnerable, but everyone's not equally vulnerable, right, So it's

0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:11.000
<v Speaker 2>not like this idea that some of us are completely immune.

0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:13.040
<v Speaker 2>I think you could be immune if you don't fall

0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:15.600
<v Speaker 2>for things like charm and charisma, but not even that

0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:18.000
<v Speaker 2>because if they're not using the whole charm and charisma

0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:21.640
<v Speaker 2>game but making it like, wow, you're such a great listener,

0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 2>you know so much. That could be quite seductive. That's

0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:28.680
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily charming and charismatic. I think every like I said,

0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 2>everyone is vulnerable, but the folks who might be a

0:25:31.560 --> 0:25:34.840
<v Speaker 2>little bit more vulnerable, certainly people who came from families

0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:38.439
<v Speaker 2>where this was the dynamic, so that trauma bonded cycle,

0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:42.840
<v Speaker 2>that equating love and chaos, the up and down roller

0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:44.840
<v Speaker 2>coaster that you think love is supposed to feel like.

0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:47.520
<v Speaker 2>That can set someone up for thinking like, oh, I'm

0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:49.640
<v Speaker 2>in another roller coaster. Of course this is love, right.

0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:52.440
<v Speaker 2>It's not a conscious process, but it feels familiar. It

0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:54.880
<v Speaker 2>feels like something you want to fight for, So that

0:25:54.920 --> 0:25:58.080
<v Speaker 2>can set someone up. Another thing that can set people

0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.840
<v Speaker 2>up is that if they're rescuers, I can fix this.

0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:03.399
<v Speaker 2>I can make this better. I need to I can.

0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:05.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, maybe I didn't do this right, maybe I

0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:06.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't do that right. I could do better. I could

0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:09.920
<v Speaker 2>do better. The narcissistic person almost becomes a project. Those

0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:12.280
<v Speaker 2>folks can get pilled in. People who are very forgiving

0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:16.080
<v Speaker 2>are very vulnerable to narcissistic folks, because once the narcissistic

0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:18.480
<v Speaker 2>person realizes like, I can get away with stuff in

0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.960
<v Speaker 2>this relationship, whatever it is, then they are sort of

0:26:21.960 --> 0:26:24.239
<v Speaker 2>they're in because they now know they can. And if

0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:26.640
<v Speaker 2>your nature is to be very forgiving or even really

0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:29.920
<v Speaker 2>optimistic and positive, that, believe it or not, can also

0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:32.520
<v Speaker 2>put you at risk for these relationships. And then there's

0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:34.800
<v Speaker 2>other things that could be happening in your life. Some

0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:37.760
<v Speaker 2>people find that they were more vulnerable to narcissistic folks

0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:39.919
<v Speaker 2>when they were going through a transition, coming out a

0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:44.280
<v Speaker 2>breakup and moving to a new city, between jobs, starting

0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:46.919
<v Speaker 2>a new job, starting a new school. You're maybe in

0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:50.520
<v Speaker 2>an unfamiliar routine or rhythm, you're sort of off your game.

0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:53.240
<v Speaker 2>That's a place where somebody comes in and starts a

0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:56.639
<v Speaker 2>whole love mom, You're so great cycle. That can definitely

0:26:56.680 --> 0:26:59.280
<v Speaker 2>sort of throw you off, and people might be more vulnerable.

0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:03.720
<v Speaker 2>People in a rush are vulnerable narcissistic people because especially

0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:05.560
<v Speaker 2>people who might feel like I feel like I need

0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:07.760
<v Speaker 2>to get married or I want to have children or

0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:12.280
<v Speaker 2>whatever it may be, that kind of clipped pace will say, oh, Okay,

0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:13.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm making too big a deal out of that. I'm

0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:15.640
<v Speaker 2>making too big a deal because you want it to work,

0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:18.000
<v Speaker 2>you want it to fit. So all of those things

0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:21.320
<v Speaker 2>can make people a little bit more vulnerable, But I

0:27:21.320 --> 0:27:23.400
<v Speaker 2>think at the end of the day, everyone is those

0:27:23.400 --> 0:27:25.280
<v Speaker 2>other things just sort of amp up the odds.

0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:29.920
<v Speaker 1>And when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, you

0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:33.239
<v Speaker 1>do you feel like constantly, like what you do is

0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:36.480
<v Speaker 1>not enough, like it's just your You always feel like

0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:38.280
<v Speaker 1>you have to play kind of like catch up, like

0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:43.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm catching up and trying to make you happy constantly.

0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean people will the thing with a narcissistic relationship,

0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:50.840
<v Speaker 2>it will never be enough. The nature of the relationship

0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:55.199
<v Speaker 2>style is they need so much validation it's called narcissistic supply,

0:27:55.800 --> 0:27:59.000
<v Speaker 2>that no one could ever provide enough to them. For

0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:03.199
<v Speaker 2>healthy old they can generate their own supply, like I

0:28:03.240 --> 0:28:05.359
<v Speaker 2>had a good day at work today, or what a

0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:07.680
<v Speaker 2>beautiful day it is outside, or whatever it is. They're

0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:09.800
<v Speaker 2>able to do that for themselves, so they're not looking

0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:12.800
<v Speaker 2>to other people. We all love compliments, we all love

0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:16.119
<v Speaker 2>getting a gift or something, but we don't sort of

0:28:16.400 --> 0:28:20.480
<v Speaker 2>set every set our inner barometer by that narcissistic people do,

0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:25.159
<v Speaker 2>so no one person could ever bring enough supply, and

0:28:25.200 --> 0:28:28.600
<v Speaker 2>if you try to do that, you could actually exhaust

0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:32.920
<v Speaker 2>yourself because the narcissistic person becomes literally a full time job.

0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:34.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's what people will say this that I just

0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:37.679
<v Speaker 2>gave my everything to this. I gave up everything in

0:28:37.720 --> 0:28:39.240
<v Speaker 2>my life. I gave up my job, I gave up

0:28:39.280 --> 0:28:41.760
<v Speaker 2>my friends. I did things on their schedule. I moved

0:28:41.760 --> 0:28:43.640
<v Speaker 2>where they wanted, I ate the way they wanted, I

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:46.280
<v Speaker 2>looked the way they wanted. And it's never going to

0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:48.320
<v Speaker 2>be enough. So I'm like, don't even play that game.

0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:48.880
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:52.480
<v Speaker 2>You're just throwing money after money and getting absolutely nothing

0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:56.160
<v Speaker 2>for it. So that's the narcissist problem. But a lot

0:28:56.160 --> 0:28:58.640
<v Speaker 2>of people blame themselves. Well, maybe if I had been thinner,

0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:01.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe if I had been home more often, Maybe if

0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:03.360
<v Speaker 2>I'd just been friendlier, Maybe if I'd been more of this,

0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Maybe if I'd been more of that. And that's what

0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:06.680
<v Speaker 2>confuses the whole picture.

0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Is there a way to coexist if you're in a

0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:13.520
<v Speaker 1>relationship with a narcissist or like a family member or

0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:16.840
<v Speaker 1>I want to just say, like I said earlier, if

0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:19.040
<v Speaker 1>someone just doesn't bring you peace, and doesn't matter who

0:29:19.120 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 1>it is, you just you have that choice of you

0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:24.200
<v Speaker 1>know xnaying that person from your life. But is there

0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:25.920
<v Speaker 1>a way to coexist?

0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:29.600
<v Speaker 2>I would say you got to start with realistic expectations

0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:32.760
<v Speaker 2>and radical acceptance. This isn't going to change, right. So

0:29:32.800 --> 0:29:34.760
<v Speaker 2>there's no version of this where they're going to listen

0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:38.440
<v Speaker 2>better or think you're enough, or be empathic or you know,

0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:40.760
<v Speaker 2>or not be selfish. That's just that's not a thing.

0:29:41.240 --> 0:29:43.560
<v Speaker 2>So part of it is the shift to like, Okay,

0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:45.320
<v Speaker 2>this is it. This is as good as it gets,

0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:49.360
<v Speaker 2>and recognizing the limitations of the relationship, right. And once

0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:51.760
<v Speaker 2>you recognize the limitations of it, you're going to stop

0:29:51.800 --> 0:29:54.040
<v Speaker 2>turning it to it for something that it's not. And

0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:57.280
<v Speaker 2>that's hard. This is your spouse, if this is your

0:29:57.280 --> 0:29:59.920
<v Speaker 2>long term partner, this is a sibling, if this is

0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:03.120
<v Speaker 2>one of your best friends. It's really hard to do

0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:05.400
<v Speaker 2>that because then a lot of people will say this

0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:07.760
<v Speaker 2>isn't even a relationship. I'm like, well, that's that's your

0:30:07.800 --> 0:30:10.040
<v Speaker 2>conversation to have. I'm telling you this is what it is.

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:13.400
<v Speaker 2>And so I think that when you recognize you could

0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:16.640
<v Speaker 2>have a very limited relationship with them, you really can't

0:30:16.840 --> 0:30:19.239
<v Speaker 2>get into stuff with them. They're often baiting you and

0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:22.000
<v Speaker 2>looking for a fight. That's not good for you. See.

0:30:22.000 --> 0:30:23.720
<v Speaker 2>I always say it's almost like you just got to

0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:26.240
<v Speaker 2>keep the topics neutral, you know, when somebody once said

0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:28.640
<v Speaker 2>to me, it's like sports, news and weather. You can't

0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:30.320
<v Speaker 2>even talk about the news anymore, so you're kind of

0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:33.719
<v Speaker 2>loft with weather. So it's like weather or like, wow,

0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:35.560
<v Speaker 2>did you hear it's going to rain next week? Or

0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.640
<v Speaker 2>it's been hotter than usual, Like that's about as deep

0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:40.880
<v Speaker 2>as it's going to get. Maybe like oh, look there's

0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:43.280
<v Speaker 2>a dog in the street. I wonder whose dog that is.

0:30:43.440 --> 0:30:46.560
<v Speaker 2>Or somebody's cutting down that tree. It's just not you

0:30:46.600 --> 0:30:49.160
<v Speaker 2>can't go that deep with them. Or if you want

0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:50.960
<v Speaker 2>to keep the trains running on time, just listen to

0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:51.840
<v Speaker 2>them and not a lot.

0:30:51.920 --> 0:30:52.040
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:30:52.040 --> 0:30:54.239
<v Speaker 2>I always say that a conversation with a narcissist is

0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:57.320
<v Speaker 2>like listening to a podcast about one person. They just talk,

0:30:57.600 --> 0:31:01.120
<v Speaker 2>there's no interruption. You're like, okay, hopefully it's interesting. And

0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:05.920
<v Speaker 2>so that's the reality. But it does mean that simultaneous

0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:09.080
<v Speaker 2>to that, you need your own supports. You need friends

0:31:09.120 --> 0:31:12.240
<v Speaker 2>where you can have a deep relationship, or family or

0:31:12.240 --> 0:31:14.440
<v Speaker 2>whoever it is, that if you have spaces where you

0:31:14.480 --> 0:31:17.600
<v Speaker 2>can go deep with people and it feels connected and good.

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Those are going to really be places where you heal

0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 2>and feel connected and recognize that this narcissistic relationship is

0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:28.440
<v Speaker 2>deeply limited. But recognizing that can bring a lot of grief,

0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:32.000
<v Speaker 2>especially if this is a significant person in someone's life,

0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:35.440
<v Speaker 2>like a parent or a spouse, or a sibling or

0:31:35.520 --> 0:31:39.680
<v Speaker 2>a long term friend. Be like, Okay, I kept trying

0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:42.000
<v Speaker 2>to make this work. You're telling me now it can't work.

0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:44.120
<v Speaker 2>In a way, I feel like I'm mentally giving up

0:31:44.160 --> 0:31:46.920
<v Speaker 2>on them but still showing up. But that's how you

0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:49.160
<v Speaker 2>get through it. I mean, because most people can't walk

0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:51.680
<v Speaker 2>away from all of these relationships. It's a luxury when

0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:55.520
<v Speaker 2>you can. So because most people can't, you do have

0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:58.240
<v Speaker 2>to recognize that there's going to have to be workarounds.

0:31:59.040 --> 0:32:02.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, recognize that it's more than likely all the time

0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:04.200
<v Speaker 1>going to be one sided. It has to be on

0:32:04.240 --> 0:32:06.280
<v Speaker 1>the surface, and you just have to kind of ask yourself,

0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:07.880
<v Speaker 1>am I willing to do this for the rest of

0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:10.880
<v Speaker 1>my life? It's really a, like we said earlier, a

0:32:10.960 --> 0:32:15.920
<v Speaker 1>personal decision because it is very, very draining, very draining.

0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:19.280
<v Speaker 1>Is there anything else that you would like to you know,

0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:21.560
<v Speaker 1>an important note that you'd like to add, doctor.

0:32:21.720 --> 0:32:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that the most difficult thing that happens

0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:26.920
<v Speaker 2>to people in these relationships is a lot of self blame.

0:32:27.080 --> 0:32:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Is this my fault? Did I not try hard enough?

0:32:29.440 --> 0:32:30.719
<v Speaker 2>Is there a different way I could say this?

0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:30.920
<v Speaker 3>No?

0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:33.560
<v Speaker 2>The answer to that is no, it's really setting yourself

0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:36.240
<v Speaker 2>free from this. This is their personality. It's not yours,

0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:39.440
<v Speaker 2>your bad luck as you're looped into this. I understand

0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:42.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people love folks with these personalities. I

0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:45.640
<v Speaker 2>do too. And the other thing that confuses people is

0:32:45.640 --> 0:32:47.880
<v Speaker 2>that there are some good days. It's not bad every day.

0:32:47.960 --> 0:32:50.720
<v Speaker 2>There can be days, weeks, even months that are good.

0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:53.240
<v Speaker 2>Things are going well in the narcissistic person's life, so

0:32:53.280 --> 0:32:55.840
<v Speaker 2>they show up as a really nice person. It's not

0:32:55.960 --> 0:32:57.880
<v Speaker 2>that these people are all bad all the time, and

0:32:57.920 --> 0:33:00.880
<v Speaker 2>that's what creates the confusion, because go south, it goes

0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:05.080
<v Speaker 2>south quick and it's mean, and then they might come

0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:08.280
<v Speaker 2>back again. But what they'll never do is take accountability

0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:10.800
<v Speaker 2>or apologize. We all have bad days, and we all

0:33:10.800 --> 0:33:12.760
<v Speaker 2>have days we don't always say the best thing. But

0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:15.680
<v Speaker 2>a healthy person will say that was not okay, I

0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:18.280
<v Speaker 2>am very sorry. I mean, I have my excuses, but

0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:20.000
<v Speaker 2>at the end of the day, I did not treat

0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 2>you well, I am sorry, and they take responsibility and

0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:25.640
<v Speaker 2>then they don't do it again. It's all understandable, but

0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:28.320
<v Speaker 2>with a narcissistic person, they'll never be that accountability, which

0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:30.760
<v Speaker 2>is why a lot of people blame themselves. And these

0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:33.560
<v Speaker 2>relationships can really do a number on people. So healing

0:33:33.640 --> 0:33:36.400
<v Speaker 2>is a real thing, and whether that's to therapy or

0:33:36.920 --> 0:33:39.520
<v Speaker 2>other support groups are just doing your own work on you,

0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:43.920
<v Speaker 2>it is, but it's above all else recognizing these personalities

0:33:44.000 --> 0:33:47.200
<v Speaker 2>rarely change significantly enough to make a difference for you.

0:33:47.720 --> 0:33:49.840
<v Speaker 2>So it's really going to be about sort of shifting

0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:53.160
<v Speaker 2>your expectations and fostering other parts of your life.

0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:57.080
<v Speaker 1>Wow, thank you so much, doctor Romney. Honestly, I enjoyed

0:33:57.080 --> 0:33:59.360
<v Speaker 1>this conversation very much. I learned a lot, and I

0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:02.640
<v Speaker 1>know that my listeners did as well. I think we've

0:34:02.680 --> 0:34:05.040
<v Speaker 1>all encountered one at least once in our life, and

0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:07.080
<v Speaker 1>if you haven't, now you can listen to the pod

0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:10.360
<v Speaker 1>and just kind of recognize it. Is there anywhere else?

0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:13.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you have your podcast right navigating Narcissism? Is

0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:16.120
<v Speaker 1>there anywhere else that they can find you? My listeners

0:34:16.760 --> 0:34:18.719
<v Speaker 1>so they can hear a little bit more about narcissism.

0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so definitely come, but also iHeart come to the

0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:25.000
<v Speaker 2>podcast Navigating Narcissism. I also have for people who really

0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:27.240
<v Speaker 2>do want to focus on healing, I have a healing

0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:29.880
<v Speaker 2>program and if you go to my website doctor Romedy

0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:31.799
<v Speaker 2>dot com and I'm sure you have the links, you

0:34:31.840 --> 0:34:34.000
<v Speaker 2>can go and check that out because it's something on

0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:36.880
<v Speaker 2>a monthly program and there's workshops and questions and answer

0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:40.759
<v Speaker 2>sessions and journal prompts and meditations, so there's a lot

0:34:40.800 --> 0:34:43.120
<v Speaker 2>of stuff that people can work with to sort of

0:34:43.160 --> 0:34:45.440
<v Speaker 2>help on their healing process. And if you do go

0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:48.320
<v Speaker 2>to my website, you'll see I have many more resources, books,

0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:51.400
<v Speaker 2>other recommendations, and I have a YouTube channel where we

0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:54.600
<v Speaker 2>post new content every day, so it's always evolving and changing,

0:34:54.640 --> 0:34:57.160
<v Speaker 2>so there's always information you can get there as well.

0:34:57.520 --> 0:35:01.120
<v Speaker 1>I love that. I'm definitely going to be checking. I

0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:04.000
<v Speaker 1>will thank you so much you guys. I hope you

0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:06.640
<v Speaker 1>enjoyed this episode. And before we go, we always have

0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:15.399
<v Speaker 1>our motivational quote, So the quote for today is, if

0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:17.600
<v Speaker 1>you are a giver and you have a big heart,

0:35:18.320 --> 0:35:22.520
<v Speaker 1>to be truly happy, you must learn when to let go. Naturally,

0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:25.120
<v Speaker 1>you're going to care when you shouldn't, you're going to

0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:27.640
<v Speaker 1>stay longer than you should, and you're going to give

0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:31.279
<v Speaker 1>when you have nothing. Know when to stop and let

0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:33.960
<v Speaker 1>things be. That is a quote. I don't know who

0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:36.160
<v Speaker 1>needs to hear that, but I definitely needed that in

0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:39.480
<v Speaker 1>my life quite a bit. I've learned that with obstacles

0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:42.640
<v Speaker 1>and things that I've had to face. So anyhow, doctor Rominey,

0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:45.040
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for being on. Thank you for

0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:49.080
<v Speaker 1>your time, thank you for everything I am. You guys

0:35:49.080 --> 0:35:50.440
<v Speaker 1>have no idea how I feel right now. I just

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:55.520
<v Speaker 1>feel enlightened, but thank you. And again, thank you everyone

0:35:55.719 --> 0:35:57.439
<v Speaker 1>for listening. And I will catch you on the next

0:35:57.480 --> 0:36:05.399
<v Speaker 1>episode of Cheeks and Chill. Los kiro do you need

0:36:05.440 --> 0:36:10.120
<v Speaker 1>advice on love, relationships, health emails? I'm so excited to

0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:12.759
<v Speaker 1>share with you that my Cheeky's and Chill podcast will

0:36:12.760 --> 0:36:16.160
<v Speaker 1>have an extra episode drop each week. I'll be answering

0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:17.400
<v Speaker 1>all your questions.

0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:22.520
<v Speaker 3>Just leave me a voice message betters on my midday.

0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:24.800
<v Speaker 3>All you have to do is go to speak pipe

0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:28.240
<v Speaker 3>dot com slash Cheeky's and Chill podcasts and record your questions.

0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:34.319
<v Speaker 1>I can't wait to hear from you. This is a

0:36:34.360 --> 0:36:39.040
<v Speaker 1>production of iHeartRadio and the Michaeldura podcast Network. Follow us

0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:42.200
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram at Michael Doura Podcasts and follow me Cheeky's

0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:45.080
<v Speaker 1>That's c h i q u i s. For more

0:36:45.120 --> 0:36:49.279
<v Speaker 1>podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:52.239
<v Speaker 1>wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, and check us

0:36:52.280 --> 0:36:54.000
<v Speaker 1>out on YouTube.