1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: I feel that I was in a relationship with a 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: narcissist now that I know a little bit more about it, 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: and after we broke up, and I'm like, oh my gosh, 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: this kind of sounds like him. 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 2: Narcissistic people are very oriented to what's outside of them. 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 2: In fact, they've got a really uncanny ability to know 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: what the world likes. So charm is part of that offensive. 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use. 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 2: In an early phase of a romantic relationship. They're going 10 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: to engage in something called love bombing, and this can 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: look a lot of different ways. 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: What up, y'all? Happy Monday everyone. I'm really looking forward 13 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: to today's conversation because we're going to talk about all 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: things narcissism. We have a lot to talk about, so 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: let's get into it. This is Cheeky's and Chill, all right, 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: So today we have none other than doctor Rominy. She 17 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: has a very long and impressive resume. She's a clinical 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: psychologist and a professor at cal State Los Angeles, an 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: author of several books, and she also hosts the podcast 20 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: Navigating Narcissism. Oh my goodness, doctor, how are you? 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: I'm fine, thank you so much for having me. 22 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: Oh my god, of course I'm excited. I'm excited to 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: talk to you about this topic because I feel like 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: it's a word that people use and just kind of 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: throw around quite a bit now more than ever. I 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: hadn't heard of this word until like literally like ten 27 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: years ago, and now I feel like I hear it everywhere. 28 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: So I'm glad that you're on and you can really 29 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: get down to what it really is so that we're 30 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: not just throwing it around so freely. So tell us, 31 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: let's start off with what is narcissism. 32 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: So first of all, I do want to know highlight 33 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: your points that we do throw it around, and I 34 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: think that's become a real problem because it's a word 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 2: that has describes a lot, has a lot of power. 36 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: It also has a fair amount of stigma, so it's 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: important to use it right. So, narcissism is a personality style. 38 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: It's not a disorder, it's not a diagnosis. It's a 39 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: personality style. And this personality style is characterized by a 40 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: person that has variable empathy. They're egocentric and selfish, They're entitled, grandiose, 41 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: constantly seeking validation and admiration, They envy other people. They 42 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: often can be quite controlling, They monopolize conversations, they take 43 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 2: advantage of other people. They can be very manipulative. But really, 44 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: underneath all of that stuff I'm describing, it's really a 45 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 2: deep insecurity. And so their lives are sort of lived 46 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: forever in this kind of overcompensated kind of in this space. 47 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: But they're not aware of that. It's not like they say, oh, hey, 48 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: it's nice to make sure I'm insecure, so I've got 49 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: to do all this stuff feel better about myself. It's 50 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: not that. And if you were to ever suggest, like, hmm, 51 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: maybe you're doing this because you're insecure, they would rage 52 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: at you. It's not fair to say a narcissistic person 53 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: lacks empathy. They have again when I said variable empathy, 54 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: they know what it is. They know people like it. 55 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: It's very performative, so they know if they behave empathically 56 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 2: that might get them validation. They'll use it to get 57 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: what they want. They might use it early in a relationship, 58 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: but frankly, once they've got what they need from you 59 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: and your validation is no longer that interesting, then not 60 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: so much empathy. And if they're having a good day, 61 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: they feel safe, they feel supplied more empathy. On a 62 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: day they're having a bad day, not so much empathy. 63 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: And that jumping all around means that it's not always 64 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: bad with them. You can narcissistic people are incredibly charming 65 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: and charismatic and confident. So it's all this difficult stuff 66 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: and this stuff that looks good. Mix it up, and 67 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: then that's why you get this really confusing personality style. 68 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, And what made you interested in narcissists? 69 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: It's funny the way I got into it. It was 70 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: more of a sort of I started with my research 71 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: as when I was a university professor. I'm retired now 72 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: from that, but as in the research I was doing, 73 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: and then that kind of I was seeing it in 74 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 2: my patients in my practice. But what was fascinating to 75 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: you is two things. Was here, I'm doing this work 76 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: on it. I'm like, this is a real problem. So 77 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to all the books. I'm like, how come 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: nobody's talking about this? Like is there something wrong with me? 79 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: Am I missing something? And nobody would really talk about 80 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: it in the field of mental health? I said, Oh, 81 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: just my educating, my clients is making a difference, and 82 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: we were seeing in the research that it would have 83 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: some really interesting effects on health and mental health. It 84 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: was honestly only after doing that work that I realized 85 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 2: that this was my thing, Like this had actually like, okay, 86 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 2: this is becoming more clear to me now the stuff 87 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: that had happened in my family, stuff that had happened 88 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: in intimate relationships, stuff that had happened in friendships and 89 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: in the workplace. Most of my life I've blamed to myself. 90 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: I didn't work hard enough, I didn't try hard enough. 91 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 2: I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough. I was like, okay, sister, 92 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: hold on, maybe this wasn't you. And once I started 93 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 2: breaking it down because I had many very successful, happy friendships, relationships, 94 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: family relationships, you name it. But this subset had a 95 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: lot in common. 96 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: Hmm, Okay, I see, because I feel that I was 97 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: in a relationship with a narcissist. I mean now that 98 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: I know a little bit more about it. And after 99 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: we broke up, I started, you know, reading, and there 100 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: there were blogs and Instagram quotes and stuff like that, 101 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my gosh, this kind of sounds 102 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: like him, and it was. You know, I just always 103 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: felt kind of like gas lit in a way, like 104 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: it was just I'd say, hey, this hurt my feelings. 105 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: Oh well, maybe that's you you're feeling insecure or I 106 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,799 Speaker 1: just you know what I mean, Like I started seeing 107 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: certain things. 108 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not okay. And so even that sequence you 109 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: just described there, you know, you're sharing a feeling, maybe 110 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 2: you're feeling insecure, all of that. In a healthy relationship, 111 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: a healthy partner would hold space for that feeling and say, 112 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: you know, do you want to talk about it? Is 113 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: there anything I could do to help? I'm so sorry, 114 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 2: you know, I think you're wonderful. However, I know you're 115 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: going through something. It would be a validation of the feeling, 116 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: not a pathologizing of the feeling, like there's something wrong 117 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: with you. You're not supposed to have that feeling. Who are 118 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 2: you to judge r feeling? I can have, you know, 119 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: and so that you're right, it's manipulation, it's gaslighting. But 120 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people don't even know what 121 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: it's supposed to look like in a healthy relationship. 122 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: And now that I am in a healthy relationship, I feel, 123 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, we go to therapy like you know, I 124 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: see and I feel the difference. I feel like now 125 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: I'm able to be the best version of myself. Like 126 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: it's not I always feel like, oh my gosh, am 127 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: I the problem? Am I causing him to get upset? 128 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: It was always some way, somehow it would turn around 129 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: and it was my fault, you know, And it was 130 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: just that's when I'm like, Okay, I'm so interest in 131 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: this and it's something I actually had a question for you. 132 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: Is this something that people are born with or are 133 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: you seeing it more now in the society that we 134 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: live in with social media or is this something that 135 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: you develop? 136 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, something you develop. I think that the only if 137 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: you will inborn. Part of this is that children are 138 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: born with temperaments. It's like a biological part of our personality. 139 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: And the way temperament might show up in a baby 140 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: is a baby that's difficult, difficult to souse. They're a 141 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: more difficult child. They're more behaviorally agitated, they don't listen, 142 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: they are very demanding of attention. They wear out the 143 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: adults around them. Frankly, and it's tough because our a 144 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: little kid. You'd never said child was narcissistic, But if 145 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: that child with that kind of temperament keeps coming up 146 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: against a lot of resistance and invalidation in their environment. 147 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: It's argued that that could certainly give development to a 148 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: narcissistic personality, but there's lots of other pathways too. Also. 149 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 2: Children who experience adverse childhood experiences like trauma and neglect 150 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: and inconsistent inconsistently available caregivers or parents, or any of 151 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: those things. Those could set up a person for narcissism. 152 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: Parents who over indulged, children who don't let them learn 153 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: to regulate, who don't have good rules and boundaries, not 154 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: cruel ones, like good ones like consistency, bedtimes and homework. 155 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 2: And the child has some predictability in their life that 156 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: might look different as long as it's predictable to the child. 157 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be a certain way. But the 158 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: child has to know that there are things that you 159 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: know that again are predictable, and they feel safe with 160 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: the adults in their environment that could be lacking. Children 161 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: who are told that they're very special and more special 162 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: than any other child, that could be a factor. So 163 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: you see that there's a lot of factors here, and 164 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: a lot of children are exposed to those things and 165 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: don't become narcissistic. So it's very clear that there's some 166 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: mix of factors, but by and large, this is something 167 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: that's made. A child is not born narcissistic. 168 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: I see, okay, And I don't know if this is 169 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: like a question for the lack of a better word, but 170 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: do you see it more in male or females or 171 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: it just doesn't matter, you know what I mean. Like, 172 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: it's not like you could say I see it more 173 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: in one or the other. 174 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: So grandiose narcissism, malignant narcissism. Grandiose narcissism is sort of 175 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 2: the kind of the show off, arrogant, attention seeking narcissism. 176 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: We tend to see that more in men. However, there's 177 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: a form of narcissism called vulnerable narcissism that is more 178 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: about people who they're more anxious and resentful and angry 179 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: at the world and victimize, and so it's more they 180 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: almost look anxious and depressed more than anything. That's equal. 181 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: Men and women are pretty similar in that style. So 182 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: this is still evolving. Listen, enough people out there have 183 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: told me they have a narcissistic mother that I know 184 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: that Obviously there's narcissistic women, and enough people have that happened. 185 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, this isn't as small as we would think. 186 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: But I do think that to your other question, and 187 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: you asked it before to round it out, is does 188 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: society make this happen? Society doesn't help. But remember we're 189 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: all exposed to society, right, We're all exposed to social 190 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: media and what the world has become and what it 191 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: expects the people. Most of us are not ending up narcissistic. 192 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: So again, there's specific factors that pull for that from people. 193 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: And what I think is that narcissistic people use those 194 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: spaces differently. So where one person may go to social 195 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: media and say I just say I'm having fun and 196 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: I have my thoughts about the world. I just want 197 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: to share them, but they also maintain very healthy, empathic, respectful, 198 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: compassionate relationships. The narcissistic person is using a space like 199 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: social media to basically mainline validation. You know, they're posting, 200 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: just look at me, tell me how great I am. Please, 201 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 2: And if they don't get it, they get angry, and 202 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: so they comandeer these spaces to get a psychological need 203 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: mat and a healthy person that's not what's happening or 204 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: should not be what's happening? 205 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness right now, Like, as I'm hearing you speak, 206 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of someone in my life that's very close, 207 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my goodness, I see a lot 208 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: of those traits that you know could be you know, 209 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: of a narcissist, just thinking I'm not going to say 210 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: the name, obviously, but I'm just like, WHOA, what makes 211 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: a narcissistic person so charming? 212 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: So okay? So the charm is again, Narcissistic people are 213 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 2: very oriented to what's outside of them. In fact, they've 214 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: got a really uncanny ability to know what the world likes, 215 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: what the world wants, and what you need to do 216 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: to get that kind of attention. Right, So charm is 217 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 2: part of that offensive, right, if I could be really 218 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: smooth and Narcissistic people are also by and large, not 219 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: in all cases, but by and large very extroverted too. 220 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: So they're really good at meeting people at events, at parties, 221 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: at being on the stage and being super engaging because 222 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: you've got to remember, it's filling a need for them. 223 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: So if you or I got on a stage so 224 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: I can speak for myself, I got on stage. I'll 225 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: do it because it's the nature of my work. I'll 226 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: do it because I like talking about stuff. But I 227 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: got to tell you, I'm exhausted after that. It's not 228 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 2: serving a psychological need. It's my job, right. I'd be happy, 229 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: or certainly'd be nice if the audience clap, but if 230 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 2: the audience didn't clap, it wouldn't be a psychological end 231 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: for me. It would just sort of be like, I 232 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: did my job, I got my check, I'm going home. 233 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: For a narcissistic person, that charm gets them the main 234 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 2: thing they need, which is validation and admiration, and then 235 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 2: they will as relationships go on, they concern themselves more 236 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: with power and control, so that charm serves the function 237 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: of getting them that thing that they need more than 238 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: anything else. 239 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. See, then that's a thing. They can be very 240 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: controlling and very you know in their relationships or even 241 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: with their you know, their employees or people around them. 242 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: It's just it makes them feel more power, I guess, 243 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: is what I've seen, and they need that. Like you said, 244 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: it's really feeling a void, and really it is in 245 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: security because I think when you love yourself and you 246 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: know who you are. No matter if you get the 247 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: you know, the recognition or not, you still know well, 248 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: I know who I am. I still love myself. Everything's fine, 249 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: right AnyWho. I'm speaking out loud because I'm just starting 250 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: to realize so many things as I'm speaking to you. Okay, So, 251 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: are narcissists as dangerous and or harmful as we think 252 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: they are? 253 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 2: Depends? It's a complicated question. I mean, listen, danger is 254 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 2: a subjective term if you're talking about like physical bodily danger. 255 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 2: Here's what's very interesting. There was a research study that 256 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: came out in twenty twenty one and they've done a 257 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 2: really comprehensive overview of violence, aggression, and narcissism, and across 258 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:49,599 Speaker 2: the board, narcissistic personality was associated with all forms of 259 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: aggression and violence. Now that doesn't mean that all narcissistic 260 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: people are aggressive in violence. It means that when you 261 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 2: see aggressive violent behavior, it wouldn't be it was very 262 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: likely that there's a narcissistic person behind. So that's how 263 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 2: that works. You put your focus on the aggression and 264 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: it's not like, oh, here's a narcissistic person, they're going 265 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 2: to be physically dangerous. I think that by enlarge, people 266 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: who are more at the moderate to more severe levels 267 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 2: of narcissism can be quite psychologically, maybe not dangerous in 268 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: all cases, but problematic. The more severe it gets, the 269 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: more likely it could be very, very dangerous and cause 270 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: incredibly harmful fallout to the person in a relationship, including 271 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: complex trauma and all sorts of stuff. So what we 272 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: see is there's different kinds of narcissism. Number One, narcissism 273 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: is on a continuum from mild to severe. The more 274 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: severe the narcissism, the more risk and more danger to 275 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: a person in a relationship with this person or in 276 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: proximity to them. There's also different kinds of narcissism. I 277 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: was talking about grandiose narcissism, sort of the arrogant, pretentious, 278 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: look at me narcissists. The vulnerable, more anxious, resentful narcissists. 279 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: There's also the malignant narcissist who is more exploitative, manipulative, callous, calculating, cold. 280 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: They're more likely to be dangerous. They'll engage in things 281 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: like coercive control where they're constantly creating a sense of 282 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: fear and threat, and they financially isolate people. There are 283 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: communal narcissists who get their attention by doing what seem 284 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: like good things in the world. They'll be very charitable 285 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: and look at me, I'm saving the puppies, I'm saving 286 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 2: the elephants. I'm at a gala, raising so much money. 287 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: But it's really to get validation. And in fact, they'll 288 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: treat individual people quite badly. And so you know, as 289 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: we get into all these different forms of narcissism that 290 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: it'll show up differently. When we're talking about danger, malignant 291 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 2: narcissistic folks definitely are in that space, more severe narcissism. 292 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: It's in that space. At the moderate level, these are 293 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: not healthy relationships for us to be in. So you 294 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 2: know that war dangers a little bit sort of you know, 295 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: it's a bit vague, but you know what I'm saying 296 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: that they're not good for us. These relationships aren't good 297 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: for us at the mild, mild end of narcissism, right. 298 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: I always say that they're sort of emotionally stunted adolescents, right, 299 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: which is fine if you're an adolescent. It might even 300 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: be fine in your twin and early thirties, but there's 301 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: a point when you wake up at forty or forty five, 302 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: and you don't want to be picking up underwear off 303 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: the floor like fifty. You should not be scrolling obsessively 304 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: through an Instagram or a TikTok reel saying you know, 305 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 2: I hope people like my video. Like no, I mean 306 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: there's an and doing that to the detriment of other 307 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: responsibilities and people in your family and all of that. 308 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: So there's like they don't grow up. They're caught up 309 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 2: in really superficial pursuits. They again, they kind of walk 310 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: around the world eternally as an adolescent. Is that dangerous? 311 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: I don't know dangerous is the right word. But if 312 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: you're in an adult relationship with someone like that, they'd 313 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 2: be very frustrating. If this is your parent, they'll be 314 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: very selfish and always put their needs first. It's not 315 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: great for the other people around them, but most people 316 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: sort of roll their eyes and sort of view them 317 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: as sort of an irresponsible, perpetual teenager. 318 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: And see. And for the listeners, I think what I 319 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: would tell you, guys or is I've gotten to an 320 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: age where it doesn't matter who the person is if 321 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: they're not giving me peace, if I feel like I'm 322 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: constantly walking on eggshells. I just don't want to have 323 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: those people around me, you know. And I think that 324 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: that's the question you guys have to ask, like how 325 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: dangerous is it? Not where they're going to take your life, 326 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: God forbid. But I'm saying, like, is it really tormenting 327 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: you mentally, physically and emotionally. That's a decision that you 328 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: have to make. And now I feel like I can 329 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: kind of tell this person has some narcissistic traits and 330 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily want that in my life, and you just, 331 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's more of a personal decision. 332 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: But yes, I mean, do you feel that narcissistic people 333 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: can change? I mean, I'm a huge advocate of therapy. 334 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: Do you think through therapy they can change? 335 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: Not enough, probably to make a significant difference for people 336 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 2: in very close relationships to them. A lot of it 337 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 2: has to do with where the narcissism started. Okay, So 338 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: let's say you have a person who's narcissistic personality really 339 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: does seem to trace back to a rather traumatic origin, 340 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 2: complex trauma and the family abuse, something like that. That 341 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 2: would be a person who would be a great candidate 342 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 2: for trauma informed therapy and it could very well be 343 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: that addressing that trauma and then addressing the current behavioral 344 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: patterns not showing up well, being entitled, being arrogant, not 345 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 2: accounting for the feelings of others, that the connection of 346 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 2: the trauma. We could see these patterns and sort of 347 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: the post traumatic narcissism, and then tying them to current patterns, 348 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: you could actually probably create somewhat meaningful change. Right, But 349 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: you're talking about very long term therapy with an extraordinarily 350 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: skilled therapist who is not only trauma informed, but is 351 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: narcissism informed, and to do that work for years. The 352 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: fact is that's not available to most people. I mean, 353 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: that kind of therapy is not eight sessions. It's not 354 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: you whatever random therapist you're thrown at by an insurance company. 355 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 2: This is a skilled person. It's going to cost, and 356 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: that is not available to a lot of people. Now, 357 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: if you don't have that kind of origin, like this 358 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 2: is sort of your spoiled child narcissism or something I 359 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 2: actually don't seem much likely to change. And at the 360 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 2: end of the day, here's what it comes down to. 361 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 2: If a narcissistic person in real time is saying, oh 362 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: my god, all right, Okay, I get it. I am 363 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 2: such an ahole. I am horrible to people. They're able 364 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 2: to see that we have something we could work with. 365 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: That very very rarely happens, and it often takes rock 366 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 2: bottom or scorched earth, like their life completely goes to hell. 367 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: Right. 368 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 2: Everybody leaves them, everyone cuts them off, they lose their business, 369 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: there's a public scandal, whatever, And then they look around 370 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 2: and there's nobody around. And some people have that awakening 371 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: moment right then and say epiphany of some kind like Okay, 372 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: I gotta do something. But they still have to be accountable. 373 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: If you have in real time a narcissistic person who 374 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 2: has zero accountability and continues to blame the world, the 375 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 2: likelihood of change is almost none. And when I'm walking 376 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 2: people through narcissistic abuse, I will tell them, I know 377 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: the fantasy you've had. This person's going to change, They're 378 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: going to go to therapy. The odds are not in 379 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: your favor. So if you're sitting around waiting for this 380 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 2: person to change, this could be a really long wait. 381 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 2: And meanwhile, your life is on ice. 382 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: Heck yeah, and it's freaking draining. So I'm very draining, 383 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: very very very emotionally exhausting. It's just it's a lot 384 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: you guys. So I mean I always say the first 385 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: step to change is really wanting that and recognizing and 386 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: like doctor Romney said, taking accountability. So ooh, I mean, 387 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: are there some popular manipulation tactics that narcissists use? For instance, 388 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: I love bombing. 389 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so love bombing is an interesting one, right, because 390 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: now we're talking about the relationships we choose. I mean, 391 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 2: I think it's hard because some people are listening to 392 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: this and thing that's actually my mom who's narcissistic, or 393 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 2: my dad, or my brother or my sister. I didn't 394 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: choose these people, like I was thrown in with them. 395 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: But in a lot of narcissistic relationships, and often the 396 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: ones that cause the most trouble are the ones that 397 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: are with people we choose my partners most pointedly, partners 398 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: sometimes friends. Right, So, in an early phase of a 399 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 2: romantic relationship with a narcissist, they're going to engage in 400 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: something called love bombing. And this can look a lot 401 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 2: of different ways. I think we have a prototype of 402 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: love bombing like big gestures and texting you a lot 403 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: great first night and you go out dancing, and you 404 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 2: stay out for hours and there's flowers waiting for you 405 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: and the gifts and good morning babe, and you're on 406 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 2: my princess and all this stuff right. Doesn't always look 407 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 2: that way. Sometimes love bombing could just be somebody who 408 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: is paying a lot of attention to something that really 409 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 2: really matters to you, so you feel really seen. It 410 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 2: could be somebody who tells you that no one's ever 411 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 2: listened to my problems the way you do. You understand 412 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: me like nobody's ever understood me before, and so now 413 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: you feel really special. It's not like you're showing up 414 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: with five dozen roses. It's that they're saying you are 415 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: so amazing because you get me so amazingly, and you 416 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 2: feel really overwhelmed by it, and they want to spend 417 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 2: all this time with you. There's often not always, but 418 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 2: there can often be a lot of time involved in 419 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: love bombing. And the other thing that starts happening in 420 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 2: love bombing is that there's a lot of backing and 421 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: forthing at this point. In a fair number of narcissistic relationships. 422 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 2: They'll come in and then they'll pull out, and then 423 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: they'll come in and then they'll pull out and that, 424 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 2: and so it'll sort of be this am I in, 425 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,959 Speaker 2: this am I not. And that's where people start getting confused, 426 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: very very much start getting confused, and so that back 427 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 2: and forth also throws people off. But the entire phase 428 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: is very confusing. And the thing that's happening during love 429 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: bombing is it's almost like a it's an indoctrination period. 430 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: And a lot of people will say, this was an 431 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: amazing time. I felt special, I felt seen, I felt 432 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 2: a lot in common with this person. It had this big, bright, 433 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: beautiful energy. Were there tiny fault lines coming up? Sure? 434 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 2: There might be sort of you want to spend time 435 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: with your friend and they're saying like, oh, I guess 436 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: you're not that into me, And they'll make it about 437 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: your lack of commitment. You might have to start working more, 438 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: and they'll sort of look sideways at that. They might 439 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: make little digs at what you do for a living. 440 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: They might be a little bit sort of sneering and 441 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: contemptuous of something that matters to you, and you'll not 442 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: even be sure that they're joking or not right. So 443 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: it'll take them in as like, what is happening here? 444 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: But I really am into them? So now you're starting 445 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 2: to make excuses, right like, oh, I'm so many to them, 446 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: we're having so much fun. That didn't feel nice. But now, no, 447 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 2: maybe I'm reading that wrong. Now you start blaming yourself. 448 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 2: And so as that goes on with enough months, the 449 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 2: love bombing is not gonna last forever. And what's interesting 450 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: about the love bombing is it can show up throughout 451 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: the relationship, even if you're with someone for many, many years. 452 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 2: If you have a conflict and they're trying to suck 453 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 2: you back in, they will love bombing you. But it 454 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: won't be as pronounced as the first time. But little 455 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: things like there'll be a gift, there'll be a gesture, 456 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: they'll know you want to trash cans brought in, whatever 457 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: your thing is, and that's happening, like, Okay, maybe I 458 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: misread the relationship. Maybe it's not that bad. And so 459 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: that's clearly obviously manipulation because what it's doing is it's 460 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 2: confusing you. And as love bumming goes on and the 461 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 2: person starts to pull away, a lot of people will 462 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 2: want to rush in and say no, no, no, no, no, 463 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 2: wait wait wait I don't know that I want this, 464 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 2: You know I don't. I don't want this to go away, 465 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: and no, it's not great. But if you now start feeling, 466 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: if you put any conditions on this relationship, it's going 467 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 2: to evaporate. 468 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, you guys, I'm like blown away. I 469 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: feel like I've been in two narcissistic relationships. And the 470 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: crazy thing is is that I think, like you said, doctor, 471 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: it's there's different levels to it, you know what I mean. 472 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: One can be super severe and you see it right away, 473 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: and then right now what you just explain, it's like 474 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: an emotional rollercoaster. There's there're one foot in, one foot out, 475 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: they're hot and they're cold, and it's just you're constantly 476 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: on your on, you know, on your tippy toes sort 477 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: of thing. And that also is like, oh, it's so exhausting. 478 00:24:52,880 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Who's vulnerable to being exploited and abused 479 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: by a narcissist? Or like, is everyone equally vulnerable? 480 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 2: Everyone's vulnerable, but everyone's not equally vulnerable, right, So it's 481 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: not like this idea that some of us are completely immune. 482 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: I think you could be immune if you don't fall 483 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: for things like charm and charisma, but not even that 484 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 2: because if they're not using the whole charm and charisma 485 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 2: game but making it like, wow, you're such a great listener, 486 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: you know so much. That could be quite seductive. That's 487 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 2: not necessarily charming and charismatic. I think every like I said, 488 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: everyone is vulnerable, but the folks who might be a 489 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: little bit more vulnerable, certainly people who came from families 490 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 2: where this was the dynamic, so that trauma bonded cycle, 491 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: that equating love and chaos, the up and down roller 492 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 2: coaster that you think love is supposed to feel like. 493 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: That can set someone up for thinking like, oh, I'm 494 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 2: in another roller coaster. Of course this is love, right. 495 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 2: It's not a conscious process, but it feels familiar. It 496 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 2: feels like something you want to fight for, So that 497 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: can set someone up. Another thing that can set people 498 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: up is that if they're rescuers, I can fix this. 499 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 2: I can make this better. I need to I can. 500 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: You know, maybe I didn't do this right, maybe I 501 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: didn't do that right. I could do better. I could 502 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 2: do better. The narcissistic person almost becomes a project. Those 503 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: folks can get pilled in. People who are very forgiving 504 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: are very vulnerable to narcissistic folks, because once the narcissistic 505 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: person realizes like, I can get away with stuff in 506 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: this relationship, whatever it is, then they are sort of 507 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,239 Speaker 2: they're in because they now know they can. And if 508 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 2: your nature is to be very forgiving or even really 509 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: optimistic and positive, that, believe it or not, can also 510 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 2: put you at risk for these relationships. And then there's 511 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: other things that could be happening in your life. Some 512 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: people find that they were more vulnerable to narcissistic folks 513 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: when they were going through a transition, coming out a 514 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: breakup and moving to a new city, between jobs, starting 515 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 2: a new job, starting a new school. You're maybe in 516 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 2: an unfamiliar routine or rhythm, you're sort of off your game. 517 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: That's a place where somebody comes in and starts a 518 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: whole love mom, You're so great cycle. That can definitely 519 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 2: sort of throw you off, and people might be more vulnerable. 520 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: People in a rush are vulnerable narcissistic people because especially 521 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 2: people who might feel like I feel like I need 522 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: to get married or I want to have children or 523 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: whatever it may be, that kind of clipped pace will say, oh, Okay, 524 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 2: I'm making too big a deal out of that. I'm 525 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 2: making too big a deal because you want it to work, 526 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: you want it to fit. So all of those things 527 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 2: can make people a little bit more vulnerable, But I 528 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 2: think at the end of the day, everyone is those 529 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 2: other things just sort of amp up the odds. 530 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: And when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, you 531 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,239 Speaker 1: do you feel like constantly, like what you do is 532 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: not enough, like it's just your You always feel like 533 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: you have to play kind of like catch up, like 534 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm catching up and trying to make you happy constantly. 535 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean people will the thing with a narcissistic relationship, 536 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: it will never be enough. The nature of the relationship 537 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 2: style is they need so much validation it's called narcissistic supply, 538 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: that no one could ever provide enough to them. For 539 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 2: healthy old they can generate their own supply, like I 540 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 2: had a good day at work today, or what a 541 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: beautiful day it is outside, or whatever it is. They're 542 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: able to do that for themselves, so they're not looking 543 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: to other people. We all love compliments, we all love 544 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 2: getting a gift or something, but we don't sort of 545 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: set every set our inner barometer by that narcissistic people do, 546 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 2: so no one person could ever bring enough supply, and 547 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: if you try to do that, you could actually exhaust 548 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 2: yourself because the narcissistic person becomes literally a full time job. 549 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 2: And that's what people will say this that I just 550 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 2: gave my everything to this. I gave up everything in 551 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: my life. I gave up my job, I gave up 552 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: my friends. I did things on their schedule. I moved 553 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: where they wanted, I ate the way they wanted, I 554 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 2: looked the way they wanted. And it's never going to 555 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: be enough. So I'm like, don't even play that game. 556 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 3: Now. 557 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: You're just throwing money after money and getting absolutely nothing 558 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: for it. So that's the narcissist problem. But a lot 559 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: of people blame themselves. Well, maybe if I had been thinner, 560 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: maybe if I had been home more often, Maybe if 561 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: I'd just been friendlier, Maybe if I'd been more of this, 562 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: Maybe if I'd been more of that. And that's what 563 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 2: confuses the whole picture. 564 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: Is there a way to coexist if you're in a 565 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: relationship with a narcissist or like a family member or 566 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: I want to just say, like I said earlier, if 567 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: someone just doesn't bring you peace, and doesn't matter who 568 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: it is, you just you have that choice of you 569 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: know xnaying that person from your life. But is there 570 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: a way to coexist? 571 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: I would say you got to start with realistic expectations 572 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: and radical acceptance. This isn't going to change, right. So 573 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 2: there's no version of this where they're going to listen 574 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: better or think you're enough, or be empathic or you know, 575 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 2: or not be selfish. That's just that's not a thing. 576 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: So part of it is the shift to like, Okay, 577 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 2: this is it. This is as good as it gets, 578 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: and recognizing the limitations of the relationship, right. And once 579 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: you recognize the limitations of it, you're going to stop 580 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: turning it to it for something that it's not. And 581 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: that's hard. This is your spouse, if this is your 582 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: long term partner, this is a sibling, if this is 583 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: one of your best friends. It's really hard to do 584 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 2: that because then a lot of people will say this 585 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: isn't even a relationship. I'm like, well, that's that's your 586 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: conversation to have. I'm telling you this is what it is. 587 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: And so I think that when you recognize you could 588 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: have a very limited relationship with them, you really can't 589 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,239 Speaker 2: get into stuff with them. They're often baiting you and 590 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: looking for a fight. That's not good for you. See. 591 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: I always say it's almost like you just got to 592 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: keep the topics neutral, you know, when somebody once said 593 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: to me, it's like sports, news and weather. You can't 594 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: even talk about the news anymore, so you're kind of 595 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 2: loft with weather. So it's like weather or like, wow, 596 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: did you hear it's going to rain next week? Or 597 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 2: it's been hotter than usual, Like that's about as deep 598 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: as it's going to get. Maybe like oh, look there's 599 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 2: a dog in the street. I wonder whose dog that is. 600 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 2: Or somebody's cutting down that tree. It's just not you 601 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: can't go that deep with them. Or if you want 602 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 2: to keep the trains running on time, just listen to 603 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 2: them and not a lot. 604 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 3: You know. 605 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,239 Speaker 2: I always say that a conversation with a narcissist is 606 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: like listening to a podcast about one person. They just talk, 607 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: there's no interruption. You're like, okay, hopefully it's interesting. And 608 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: so that's the reality. But it does mean that simultaneous 609 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 2: to that, you need your own supports. You need friends 610 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: where you can have a deep relationship, or family or 611 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 2: whoever it is, that if you have spaces where you 612 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: can go deep with people and it feels connected and good. 613 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 2: Those are going to really be places where you heal 614 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: and feel connected and recognize that this narcissistic relationship is 615 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: deeply limited. But recognizing that can bring a lot of grief, 616 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 2: especially if this is a significant person in someone's life, 617 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: like a parent or a spouse, or a sibling or 618 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: a long term friend. Be like, Okay, I kept trying 619 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: to make this work. You're telling me now it can't work. 620 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: In a way, I feel like I'm mentally giving up 621 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: on them but still showing up. But that's how you 622 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: get through it. I mean, because most people can't walk 623 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: away from all of these relationships. It's a luxury when 624 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 2: you can. So because most people can't, you do have 625 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 2: to recognize that there's going to have to be workarounds. 626 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, recognize that it's more than likely all the time 627 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: going to be one sided. It has to be on 628 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: the surface, and you just have to kind of ask yourself, 629 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: am I willing to do this for the rest of 630 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: my life? It's really a, like we said earlier, a 631 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: personal decision because it is very, very draining, very draining. 632 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you would like to you know, 633 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: an important note that you'd like to add, doctor. 634 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: Well, I think that the most difficult thing that happens 635 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 2: to people in these relationships is a lot of self blame. 636 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: Is this my fault? Did I not try hard enough? 637 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,719 Speaker 2: Is there a different way I could say this? 638 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: No? 639 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: The answer to that is no, it's really setting yourself 640 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 2: free from this. This is their personality. It's not yours, 641 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: your bad luck as you're looped into this. I understand 642 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: a lot of people love folks with these personalities. I 643 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: do too. And the other thing that confuses people is 644 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 2: that there are some good days. It's not bad every day. 645 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: There can be days, weeks, even months that are good. 646 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: Things are going well in the narcissistic person's life, so 647 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: they show up as a really nice person. It's not 648 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: that these people are all bad all the time, and 649 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: that's what creates the confusion, because go south, it goes 650 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: south quick and it's mean, and then they might come 651 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: back again. But what they'll never do is take accountability 652 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 2: or apologize. We all have bad days, and we all 653 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: have days we don't always say the best thing. But 654 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: a healthy person will say that was not okay, I 655 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: am very sorry. I mean, I have my excuses, but 656 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I did not treat 657 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: you well, I am sorry, and they take responsibility and 658 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 2: then they don't do it again. It's all understandable, but 659 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: with a narcissistic person, they'll never be that accountability, which 660 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: is why a lot of people blame themselves. And these 661 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: relationships can really do a number on people. So healing 662 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: is a real thing, and whether that's to therapy or 663 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 2: other support groups are just doing your own work on you, 664 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 2: it is, but it's above all else recognizing these personalities 665 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: rarely change significantly enough to make a difference for you. 666 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: So it's really going to be about sort of shifting 667 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: your expectations and fostering other parts of your life. 668 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: Wow, thank you so much, doctor Romney. Honestly, I enjoyed 669 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: this conversation very much. I learned a lot, and I 670 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: know that my listeners did as well. I think we've 671 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: all encountered one at least once in our life, and 672 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: if you haven't, now you can listen to the pod 673 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: and just kind of recognize it. Is there anywhere else? 674 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you have your podcast right navigating Narcissism? Is 675 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: there anywhere else that they can find you? My listeners 676 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: so they can hear a little bit more about narcissism. 677 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so definitely come, but also iHeart come to the 678 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 2: podcast Navigating Narcissism. I also have for people who really 679 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 2: do want to focus on healing, I have a healing 680 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 2: program and if you go to my website doctor Romedy 681 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: dot com and I'm sure you have the links, you 682 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: can go and check that out because it's something on 683 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 2: a monthly program and there's workshops and questions and answer 684 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 2: sessions and journal prompts and meditations, so there's a lot 685 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 2: of stuff that people can work with to sort of 686 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 2: help on their healing process. And if you do go 687 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 2: to my website, you'll see I have many more resources, books, 688 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 2: other recommendations, and I have a YouTube channel where we 689 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: post new content every day, so it's always evolving and changing, 690 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: so there's always information you can get there as well. 691 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: I love that. I'm definitely going to be checking. I 692 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: will thank you so much you guys. I hope you 693 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. And before we go, we always have 694 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: our motivational quote, So the quote for today is, if 695 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: you are a giver and you have a big heart, 696 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: to be truly happy, you must learn when to let go. Naturally, 697 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: you're going to care when you shouldn't, you're going to 698 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: stay longer than you should, and you're going to give 699 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: when you have nothing. Know when to stop and let 700 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: things be. That is a quote. I don't know who 701 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: needs to hear that, but I definitely needed that in 702 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: my life quite a bit. I've learned that with obstacles 703 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: and things that I've had to face. So anyhow, doctor Rominey, 704 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on. Thank you for 705 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: your time, thank you for everything I am. You guys 706 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: have no idea how I feel right now. I just 707 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: feel enlightened, but thank you. And again, thank you everyone 708 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: for listening. And I will catch you on the next 709 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 1: episode of Cheeks and Chill. Los kiro do you need 710 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: advice on love, relationships, health emails? I'm so excited to 711 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: share with you that my Cheeky's and Chill podcast will 712 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: have an extra episode drop each week. I'll be answering 713 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: all your questions. 714 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 3: Just leave me a voice message betters on my midday. 715 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 3: All you have to do is go to speak pipe 716 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 3: dot com slash Cheeky's and Chill podcasts and record your questions. 717 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear from you. This is a 718 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and the Michaeldura podcast Network. Follow us 719 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Michael Doura Podcasts and follow me Cheeky's 720 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: That's c h i q u i s. For more 721 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 722 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, and check us 723 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: out on YouTube.