1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: we're back at you with the second part of our 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: series about the Holy Undead. So, in the last episode 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: we talked about various tales of of what you what 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: you might call the pious or the holy undead. These 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: would be ghosts, revenants, and zombies that don't seem to 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: be purely demonic entities of the night, but instead they 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: take part in activities that are considered by the people 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: telling the tales to be wholesome and and and good. 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: In particular, these these are undead that love going to church, 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: and yet at the same time they're not usually entirely benign. 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: They retain this aura of menace. Sometimes they offer ill 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: oh ends to people, or sometimes they even uh, they 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: go hands on and get a little violent. So, Rob, 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: in the last episode, you told a wonderful story that 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: was based on an old Swedish folk tale called the 19 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: Hooded Congregation. And this is a tale in which a 20 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: woman is awoken in the dark of night on Christmas 21 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: I think, or is it Christmas eve. I believe it's 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve slash early Christmas morning. Yeah, yeah, and so 23 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: so their church bells and she hears them out in 24 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: the dark. And then so of course the church bells 25 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: are ringing. That means you need to go to church. 26 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: So she goes to church, but she finds it full 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: of hooded figures who were eventually revealed to be the undead, 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: including her own dearly departed sister. And when when she 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: discovers this, the attack and she narrowly escapes. Yeah, it's 30 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: a it's a fun story, and it uh it really 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: it relates to this um, this trend that we see 32 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,279 Speaker 1: in um in in Nordic traditions of these revenants, these 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: these physical undead um these these corporeal and undead that 34 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: you can they can touch you, they can grab you, 35 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: that you can wrestle and do battle with the if 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: need be. And uh yeah, in many cases they are 37 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: they're they're quite malevolent, but in other cases they are 38 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: they are almost benign, just attending church, going about their 39 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: their business doing church stuff. Um as the not quite 40 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: rested dead or want to do right. And so we 41 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: also ended up talking about a bunch of medieval ghost 42 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: stories of of the pious undead that are translated and 43 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: analyzed in a wonderful historical paper that we're going to 44 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: continue talking about in this episode and again, so the 45 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: reference on this paper is that it's called Revenants, Resurrection 46 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: and Burnt Sacrifice by a historian named Nancy Mandeville Cacciola, 47 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: who is a medieval historian at University of California, San Diego. 48 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: And this was published inteen in a journal called Predator 49 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: Nature Critical and Historical Studies on the pretor Natural. And 50 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: this paper focuses on stories told by a tenth to 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: eleventh century German bishop named tete Mar von Merseburg. And 52 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: so around the year ten thirteen to ten eighteen or so, 53 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 1: uh teit Mar was writing an eight volume historical text 54 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: called the Chronic con which was supposed to be about 55 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: the glories of the Ottonian dynasty. And this was a 56 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: series of Saxon Christian kings that he served under who 57 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: were involved in conquering and Christianizing lands that previously belonged 58 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: to various Slavic pagan people's. Uh So, so this was 59 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: a sort of colonial frontier zone. And within recent memory, 60 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: the former inhabitants of one town within this zone had 61 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: been massacre during a revolt of the locals. And so 62 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: in the middle of this history, Tetemer goes into a 63 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: digression about a story of the undead from this fortified 64 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: town where there had been a massacre. This town was 65 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: called vols Laban, and the story goes that there is 66 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: a priest who arrives at church to sing Matten's. Mattins 67 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: has spelled m A T I n s. That means 68 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: like an early morning prayer. The medieval Catholics had a 69 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: lot of interesting names for like the different prayers you 70 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: would say at the different times of day. I don't 71 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: remember them all, but there's like Mattins, there's Laud's. I remember. 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: These are used as sort of like a time delineation 73 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: chapter headings in in the Name of the Rose, if 74 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: I recall correctly. Um. But so he's there for Mattens, 75 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: so the morning prayer and uh. And when he shows 76 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: up at the church, he goes to the cemetery and 77 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: he sees a multitude of dead people there. These are 78 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: revenants and they are worshiping. They're making offerings to a 79 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: revenant priest. And so the living priest who has just arrived, 80 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: he makes the sign of the Cross, and then he 81 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 1: walks through the crowd of the undead until he sees 82 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: a woman he knows one who had died just recently, 83 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: and she asks him, Hey, what are you doing here. 84 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: He says, I'm here to sing Matins and she's like, well, 85 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: you don't need to do that, because we already did it, 86 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: and then she's like, by the way, you're going to 87 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: die soon, and then he did. That's what tete Mar 88 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: tells us. But then he also explains that the point 89 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: of him relaying the story is to prove the truth 90 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: of the Catholic doctrine of the resurrection of the dead 91 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: in Christ, which he says that the formerly pagan Slavs 92 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: do not understand very well. He thinks they need correcting 93 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: on this subject. Though I also wonder sort of if 94 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: this persuasive framing, like I'm trying to prove the truth 95 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: of the resurrection, if this persuasive, apologetic framing is really 96 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: the reason he tells these stories, because apparently after telling 97 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: this first one, he digresses from his from his history 98 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: to just tell a bunch of other ghost stories, including 99 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: an awesomely grizzly tale that we're going to get to 100 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: in just a bit. Yeah, you're right. It does make 101 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: you wonder is this about about using the ghost stories 102 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: to uh to support Christianity or is it about finding 103 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: an excuse to keep these ghost stories around just because 104 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: they're really cool. Yeah, maybe he just wanted to tell 105 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: them because he thought they were really fun, and then 106 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, I need a good reason to say 107 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm doing this. Well, actually they prove that that Christianity 108 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: is true. Yeah, And I said, I don't want to 109 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: say just fun, because I mean, certainly ghost stories can 110 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: be fun, but also ghost stories can be culturally important, 111 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: and they are you know that they are part of 112 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: one's cultural background. So there's there's an added incentive to 113 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: to keep them around if it all possible, because they 114 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: are they are a part of your history. Yeah. And 115 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: I think this is very much part of something that 116 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: that Cachiola is going to argue in this paper. But 117 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: picking back up with that paper of hers, I want 118 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: to go into some of the historical, cultural, and religious 119 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: context that she explains to help us better understand what 120 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: these stories might have meant in their in their time 121 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: and place. So one thing she says is that during 122 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: this period, religion and politics were deeply linked. German rule 123 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: was self consciously formulated as Christian rule, and the Ottonian 124 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: dynasty mythologize themselves consciously as the so called Last World Emperors. 125 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: So they were thinking of themselves as as great kings 126 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: who would by conquest, expand Christianity to the ends of 127 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: the earth and thus bring about the Second Coming of Christ. Oh, wow, 128 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: the last World Emperors. I love that that sounds sounds 129 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: positively evil. Yeah, And it's the funny thing. So this 130 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: is something that people might not realize like they think. Oh, 131 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: people in the twentieth century are always saying that the 132 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: world the end is coming soon. You know that this 133 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: religious apocalypticism. It says, I've I've received a revelation from God, 134 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: and I know finally the end is happening now. People 135 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: in the tenth and eleventh century thought this way to 136 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: people all the time throughout every century of of Christian history, 137 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: of thought that they were living in the end times. 138 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: This is just a perennial phenomenon. But because of the 139 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: linking of religion and politics here, the military expansion of 140 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: the Ottonians was also an expansion of the Catholic Church. 141 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: So when they would go and establish fortified military outposts 142 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: along the frontier. They were also establishing new bishoprics. They 143 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: were establishing new footholds for the church, and so. In 144 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: the paper, Caciola makes the argument that though the Slavic 145 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: rebellions against the German conquest and German power were were 146 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: obviously they would have had many complex reasons for doing this. 147 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: She does make the case that it really looks like 148 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: one of those reasons was religious resistance, resistance to the 149 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: Christianizing impulse of the Germans and protecting their traditional ancestral beliefs. 150 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: Uh So, she writes, as one example of this quote, 151 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: centers of German power, which were of course also Christian 152 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: religious centers, were targets for attack among these Slavic revolts, 153 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: uh Continuing this included the cathedral of have Alburg and 154 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: the and the Bishopric of Brandenburg, where the remains of 155 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: the last bishop, parentheses Te martells Us, he had been 156 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: assassinated by his own flock, were dragged from his tomb 157 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: and despoiled. The nunneries of Kalba and hillers Leban were 158 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: also not spared, showing that institutions with predominantly religious rather 159 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: than political associations were targeted as well. So this is 160 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: some evidence that the Slavic rebellions against the Altonians they 161 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: were not just trying to protect their political autonomy, but 162 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: they were also resisting the the conversion impulse. They were saying, no, 163 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: we like our religious beliefs, we'd like to keep them please. Now, 164 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: another thing that's worth clarifying is that talking about pagan 165 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: Slavs of the region is a shorthand, because of course 166 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: this is not one monolithic culture with one monolithic religion, 167 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: but rather a collection of different tribes with their own 168 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: distinct cultures and beliefs. Uh. Though, it does seem that 169 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 1: a general motivating factor for the tribal rebellions against the 170 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: saxon Autonians was defense of these pagan religious beliefs against 171 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: the Christianization mission. And of course paganism itself is not 172 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: a religion, not one's unified religion at this time. In 173 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: this context, it simply means any of the non Abrahamic religions, 174 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: so this would not usually be any kind of polytheism. 175 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: And unfortunately there's a lot we don't know about these 176 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,479 Speaker 1: pagan religious beliefs that there was clearly plenty of diversity 177 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: between them, though like many religions, they broadly seem to 178 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: have included some elements of ancestor worship, as well as 179 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: some common shared views about what constituted a good versus 180 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: a bad death, and some similar beliefs about the afterlife. Now, 181 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: another interesting thing about the political and religious history that 182 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: here is that it's worth understanding that in this place 183 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: and time, conversion religious conversion would almost necessarily be a 184 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: somewhat flimsy concept. People in lands conquered by by Christians 185 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages would often get baptized as Christians 186 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: and then simply continue to practice their original pagan beliefs, 187 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: either exclusively or alongside Christian worship. And one way I 188 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: think to help understand this is that not all religions 189 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: have exactly the same contours, sort of that they don't 190 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: all make stake the same ground, right like the role 191 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: of Christianity versus the local paganisms was not a one 192 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: to one comparison in a number of ways. For example, 193 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church had organized dogmas and a concept of 194 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: religious universality and exclusivity. So this is a religion that 195 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: conceptualizes itself as the one religion that is true, and 196 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: it should be the religion of the entire world. Uh. 197 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes people who grow up in Christian societies assumed that 198 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: all religions are like this, with this belief in universality 199 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: and exclusivity. But that's not at all true. Like most 200 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: religions in history appear to have been much looser, more 201 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: defined by ritual rather than belief, and without necessary ideas 202 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: of universality or exclusivity. You know, we were talking about 203 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: this just yesterday in the context of the Indiana Jones movies, 204 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: the Indiana Jones franchise, except all religions and even and 205 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: even like like fringe beliefs and ancient aliens and what 206 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: have you. Oh yeah, that's funny. That's one thing I 207 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: kind of appreciate about it. It's got a sort of 208 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: totalizing mythology and maybe one that seems sort of geographically 209 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: linked to so that it's like where maybe when you 210 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: go into a geographical area that has predominantly one religion, 211 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: that that religion mainly applies within that geography. Yeah yeah, yeah, 212 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: So in this region, Hebrew God is real, in this region, 213 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: Shiva is real. Um or was it Shiva or Kali. 214 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: It's been so long since I've seen Um the second 215 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: in I think both the second one that that movie 216 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: has got a lot of problems. But yeah, Klie is 217 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: sort of the bad guy and it and Shiva's the 218 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: good god and okay, it's more complicated than that though, folks, 219 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: if so, don't don't use the second Indiana Jones movie 220 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: is your your guide into the world of Hinduism. Um. 221 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: But uh, but still, I think it's an interesting point 222 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: about the idea. Yeah, that in the Indiana Owns world, like, 223 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: all these faiths are real and they don't seem to 224 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: exclude one another unless you say, well that the Egyptian gods, 225 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: the Egyptian pantheon is kind of excluded from the h 226 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: all the happenings that go on in Um Indiana Jones 227 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: and the you know the raiders have lost art. Well, 228 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: do we know that for sure? We never see a 229 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: contest of the gods. They're like the Pharaoh's magicians. Never true, 230 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: we don't get to see what they can do, that's right, 231 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: And maybe they're just watching on you know that they're 232 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: they're they're sleeping, who knows. I know, for one, I'm 233 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: pretty certain that there's there's bound to be some sort 234 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: of Indiana Jones related media from comics or TV series 235 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: or something that actually involves Egyptian gods. So if it's 236 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: out there, someone tell me about it. Well, I think 237 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: one consequence of the different types of groundstaking games that 238 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: are that are being played by the different religions at 239 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: this time means that, for example, so the Christians might 240 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: insist that you believe in no gods except the Christian Trinity, 241 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: but many of the European a atheists at this time 242 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: could simply incorporate new gods. So it's possible that they 243 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: might well view a conversion to Christianity rather as a 244 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: kind of incorporation exercise. So like, we have our gods, 245 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: we have our rituals, and now here's this other thing 246 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: sort of added on top of that, and here's also 247 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: Jesus and the Catholic Church. M So it's kind of 248 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: like this. It's almost like a chemical situation where the 249 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: pre existing religion uh is more inclined to bond with 250 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: with additives, even though those additives are you know, tend 251 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: to be it tend to have exclusive ideas in them. Uh. 252 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't it doesn't matter when push comes 253 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: to shove the polytheistic religion is going going to absorb 254 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: the monotheistic uh, even if to some outsiders it it 255 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: appears uh in some cases that you've set aside the 256 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: old ways, right yeah, so so. Catchiolo writes that given 257 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: these religious starting points, what you would probably expect to 258 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: see at this place in time him is not a 259 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: just sort of exchange of the old gods for the new, 260 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: but rather a sort of what she calls an untidy 261 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: syncretic admixture. You know, syncretism again is the mixing of 262 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: religious beliefs, a sort of mixing and blending and hybridization 263 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: process that would arrive at these new combinatorial beliefs. Um. 264 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: And she gives us one interesting example of this. Uh. 265 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: She talks about a text known as the Merseburg Charms 266 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: uh quote short rhythmic invocations of the valkyries full Wodan 267 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: and Freya, composed an archaic German but carefully transcribed onto 268 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: a leaf of an otherwise entirely Christian manuscript found in 269 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: the library of the Cathedral of Merseburg. And then she 270 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: has a great comment it is pleasing to think that 271 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: Tetmar himself might have encountered it, and and then of 272 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: course I'm going to drive home something we've mentioned before 273 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: in the show is that, of course humans are capable 274 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: of having multiple and con with think um beliefs and ideas, 275 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: particularly as it pertains to the you know, the origins 276 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: of the world and the inner workings of the supernatural realm. 277 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: So um, you know, we see that even today, and 278 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: many people who think that they are, you know, a 279 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: pure subscriber to one particular brand of faith, if if 280 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: they're to self analyze, they might find that they actually 281 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: have some ideas from other other faiths and sort of 282 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: non faith origin, sort of mixed up in their supernatural 283 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: understanding of the world or the same One person actually 284 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: quite easily switches gears between different belief systems depending on 285 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: the context. Yeah, I mean to come back to this example. 286 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: Perhaps perhaps you are you know, a Christian when you 287 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: were at the Christian church or in walking among the 288 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: Christian gravestones, but then when you're in the woods or 289 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: when you were you know, walking the shore. Uh, then 290 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: perhaps it's the the older gods that call to you 291 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: and this this other way of looking at the world, 292 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: or you could look at it as a night and 293 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: day thing that might Yeah, Uh, thank thank So I 294 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: think we should get back to tit Mar's ghost stories. Uh. 295 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: And so the first place I guess would be to 296 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: comment a little more on that first story, the one 297 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: about the priest who arrives to sing Matten's and and 298 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: finds the congregation the multitude of dead there, and they're 299 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: making offerings to a dead priest, and then they they 300 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: and then one of them is someone he knows tells him, 301 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,239 Speaker 1: I think you're gonna die soon, and then he does. Uh. 302 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: So I wanted to go through a few observations about 303 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: the story that the Catchyola notes that are probably worth 304 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: logging for when we look at the other ones. Uh. First, 305 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: it's worth noting that instead of going to another plane 306 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: of existence in this story, the returned dead or the revenants, 307 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: they hang out here on earth. So they're not going 308 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: off to heaven. This is where they live. They're here 309 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: on earth and this is where they do their business. Second, 310 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: they are bodily reanimations, not in substantial specters. This has 311 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: come up several times already, but this is apparently common, 312 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: especially throughout the pagan mythology of Northern Europe, that uh, 313 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's not just like a gas like ghost 314 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: that forms an image that you could walk right through. 315 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: These are undead with mass and heft. They can grab you. Yeah, 316 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: they're the literal dead. They are you know, decaying bodies 317 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: and skeletons going about their business. Another thing, so these 318 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: dead are said to be in the version of the story, 319 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: we get faithful Christians who worshiped the Christian God even 320 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: after death. Which is an interesting thing because I think 321 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: another common modern assumption that would be that like a 322 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: religion is something that people maybe need during life. You know, 323 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: it's it's in order specifically to prepare you for the afterlife, 324 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: So there would be no need in the afterlife for 325 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: people to continue doing religious practices. But here that that 326 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: assumption is clearly not on display. The dead also need 327 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: to go to church, and of course, in thinking about this, 328 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: our mine can easily go to Christian doctrines of of 329 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: the of the dead returning to life be at the 330 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 1: resurrection of Christ um after death or um the idea 331 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: that once we die, our bodies just kind of hang 332 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: around for a while until the physical resurrection occurs at 333 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: the end of time um, which you can imagine how 334 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: how that idea would um would come to life if 335 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: you had these pre existing concepts of revenant spirits, like 336 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: it's my body just in the ground awaiting um at 337 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: Christ's return, Well, what else is it doing? Is it 338 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: going to church? Where is it just lazy bones? This 339 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: is something we mentioned, uh, we mentioned last time. So 340 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: the Catholic teaching at the time emphasized the inertness of 341 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: the dead body until the general resurrection at the second 342 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: coming of Christ. So they they would emphasize, no, until 343 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: Jesus comes back, your body just stays there. It doesn't 344 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: do anything. And so this is clearly in contradiction with that. 345 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 1: And yet this is also of something we talked about 346 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: in the previous episode. There appears to have been a 347 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: pretty wide uh tolerance for various beliefs about the undead, 348 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: even if they weren't If there were beliefs about the 349 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: undead that we're not strictly in line with Catholic teaching. 350 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: For some reason, this is an area of belief that 351 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: the Church did not seem to police very strongly. And 352 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: we're broadly tolerant of people sort of coloring outside the 353 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: lines on beliefs about the dead. But to come back 354 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: to Titmar's first ghost, story here. There there are some 355 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: weird elements that are illuminating on top of the more 356 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: straightforward elements we just mentioned. First of all, so again 357 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: we we noticed that these dead are pious from a 358 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: Christian point of view. They're going to church, they're worshiping God, 359 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: and yet at the same time they project what Catchiola 360 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: calls a strong aura of menace that seems to be 361 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: about right. These are not like happy, nice ghosts who 362 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: are like, hey, sweet, you know, they're scary and the 363 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: priest is terrified of them. He has to do the 364 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: Sign of the Cross before he can go in, go 365 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: in among the crowd. And then here's another interesting thing. 366 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: I didn't notice this, but she points this out in 367 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: the analysis. Not only is the priest given a true 368 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: omen of his own impending death. That part's creepy enough, 369 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: but more so, his office has been usurped. They are 370 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: performing the morning Mass that he came there to do. 371 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: They are doing the priest's job for him. So there's 372 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: an interesting implied interplay of ideas here when when you 373 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: look at what could have been the inputs. Number one, 374 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: you'd have okay, they're appearing in this Catholic church. And 375 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: again the Catholic doctrine emphasized the inertness of the dead body. 376 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: So this is not really totally within the you know, 377 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: the central teachings of the Church. And yet obviously here's 378 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: here's Temur, a Catholic bishop recording this event um. And 379 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: yet it includes these elements that would seem to come 380 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: from European paganism that had these sort of common sense 381 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: ideas about what would lead somebody to get up out 382 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: of their grave and walk around. And generally this would 383 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: be associated with what would be considered a bad death, 384 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: people who say died of like a painful or violent death, 385 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: or died young, or died with unfinished business. That these 386 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: are generally the kinds of people who were believed to 387 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: have energy still left in them because they had something unresolved, 388 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: or they died too young, and they would be the 389 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: ones would be likely to get up out of their graves. Right. 390 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: Another area being the revenants of individuals who had not 391 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: been buried properly. Uh, and during the Christian period this 392 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: becomes had a case of had not been given a 393 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: proper Christian burial. Right, So you're you're combining these weird 394 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: connotations of you know, beliefs that would traditionally say these 395 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: are the kind of dead you should be worried about, 396 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: the ones that get up and walk around that you 397 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: know there's something wrong with them. These are the bad dead, 398 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: the dangerous dead. And yet here in this story, well 399 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: they're going to church and that's nice. Um, and so 400 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: teep margin he gives this, uh, this persuasive framing where 401 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: he says, this story proves the Christian doctrine of the 402 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: ultimate resurrection of the dead at the end of time. 403 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: Though I to come back to when I brought up earlier, 404 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: I wonder if he's got other things in mind. I 405 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: was actually kind of wondering about stories like this, if 406 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: this is kind of the same logic. There's a lot 407 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: of say twentieth century exploitation movies where they say, here's 408 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: a movie with like lurid content that is playing to 409 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, people's perverse interests in seeing you know, violence 410 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: or sexuality or something, but couched as somehow educational or 411 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: topical about important subject matter, you know what I mean. Yeah, 412 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: Like like an like an early anti drug film that 413 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: is ultimately kind of a celebration at access around supposed 414 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: drug doings. Yeah, like refor madness or something. They're like, 415 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna get your heart racing with some with some 416 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: kind of kind of scandalous content. But really this is 417 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: all aimed in showing you how how dangerous and bad 418 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: marijuana is. But then again, I think about how I guess, 419 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: to be fair to teach more this story could be 420 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: presented with both purposes at once. In one one hand, 421 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: is just kind of a very fascinating, entertaining ghost story, 422 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: and then on the other hand, it does, at least 423 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: from his point of view, have this persuasive power in 424 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: showing evidence of the possibility of the general resurrection. I 425 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: think people often underestimate the importance of entertainment within religious 426 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: education and preaching. I mean, what kind of preachers are 427 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: the most effective? I personally would argue it's very often 428 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: those who are the most entertaining to listen to that 429 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: that really keep your attention. How do you keep people's 430 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: attention You entertain them, and having good ghost stories is 431 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 1: one way to achieve that. Yeah, I mean, when I 432 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: think of of preachers that I've connected with the most, 433 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: they mean they're they're always stories to tell, right, I Mean, 434 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: they are always these Bible stories and scriptures to read. 435 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: And in some cases those scriptures are inherently interesting, and 436 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: you know, maybe it doesn't take much for a preacher 437 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: to make something interesting out of it, to make a 438 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: meal out of this particular scripture. Other times the scripture 439 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: can be especially if you're following a calendar, uh, you know, 440 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: and you're just this is the one you have to 441 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: preach on today. Some of those can be real dogs 442 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: or real are real mountains declined to try and make 443 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: it relevant um or interesting to an audience. But but 444 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: a really good preacher can do that. They can they 445 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: can find a way, like maybe you're not just focusing 446 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: on the story in the scripture, but you're you're telling 447 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: a story, uh, from your life and applying it to 448 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, the truth to supposed truths in the scripture, 449 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But yeah, there's storytelling. Is is 450 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: inherent to the whole whole process. When it's not there. 451 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: You notice regarding this this persuasive presentation or whatever I 452 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: think I've called it, apologetic, persuasive, rhetorical whatever it is, 453 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: that he's saying that he's telling the story to convince 454 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: people of the resurrection. Catch you all argues that this 455 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: actually is something that's plausibly important in the context because 456 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: people like Titmar and uh and and Catholics at the time, 457 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 1: one of the things they mainly wanted to promote to 458 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: the laity was the truth of life after death. UH 459 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: that there was apparently doubt that the afterlife existed, and 460 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: that this doubt was incredibly threatening to the church. That 461 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: was perceived as one of the main things to to 462 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: fight off and be wary of. It were any doubts 463 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 1: about the possibility of the afterlife or of resurrection. And 464 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: so even if this story is kind of weird, like 465 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't really fit exactly with Catholic Catholic doctrines about 466 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: the afterlife or about the resurrection, it's close enough. At 467 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: least there is resurrection, there is some kind of afterlife. 468 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: And because there's this strong impulse to just say, well, 469 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: whatever it is, you just gotta make make sure people 470 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: understand that it is possible to achieve immortality. There is 471 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: life after sical death of the body, and that's good enough. Yeah, 472 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: It's kind of like this is the point where the 473 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: salesman at the car dealership has convinced you that, yes, 474 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: in theory, you would like a new car. You believe 475 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: in the value of getting a new car. Now it's 476 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: about convincing you that we need to get you in 477 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: this car today, right, thank thank, Okay, so it's time, 478 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: I think to get to a couple of Tee Mar's 479 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: other stories, which which are a lot of fun. So 480 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: for there's also a thing where, briefly, he apparently says 481 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: just he recounts a few personal experiences. I think at 482 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: one point he says he heard grunts coming out of 483 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: a graveyard. Okay, I thought that was good. But then 484 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: there's a second tale he tells. So the second tale 485 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: is much shorter, and then there's a tremendous third one. 486 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: The second one takes place in the yard of Magdeburgh's 487 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: Merchants Church, and it's spooky, but not as wild as 488 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: the first or third. So i'll just read directly Catchiola's 489 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: translation of the story. During my time in Magdeburg, the 490 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 1: guards of the Merchants Church, while keeping watch at night, 491 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: experienced by sight and by hearing phenomena similar to what 492 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: I have described. So they brought some of the foremost citizens. 493 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: Having set themselves at a far distance from the cadaver cemetery, 494 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: they watched as lights were placed in the candelabras, and 495 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: then they faintly heard two parts singing the invitatory and 496 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: completing all the morning lauds in proper order. However, afterward, 497 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: when they approached, they discovered nothing. This one's interesting because 498 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: this sounds more like the kind of ghost stories you 499 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: hear people talk about today. It's like something seen very 500 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: faintly at a distance and heard in an uncertain way. Yeah, 501 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: just as as an example of someone saying, hey, sometimes 502 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: we see strange lights, or I've heard that that sometimes 503 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: they see strange lights in the in the graveyard, and 504 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,959 Speaker 1: and that's that's enough. Like that, just the idea of 505 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,959 Speaker 1: that occurring and the idea that there are accounts of 506 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: that are are enough to tickle the imagination. Okay, but 507 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: time for the third tale. This is the real barn Burner. Okay, 508 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: let's do it. So this one is a story that 509 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: Tetmar says he heard from his niece Bridget about something 510 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: that happened in You Trecked. So I love that we're 511 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: getting niece stories now. Again from the translation in in 512 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: the Cacciola's paper quote the next day, I told my 513 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: niece Bridget about the episode in Magdeburgh, and I received 514 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: this reply from her. During the eighty years or more, 515 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: when the great man Baldric held the Holy See of 516 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: You trecked, he renovated a church that had fallen into 517 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: ruin from old age in a place called Devonter. He 518 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: consecrated it and commended it to the care of one 519 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: of his priests. One day, when the priest was going 520 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: to the church very early in the morning, he saw 521 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: dead people in the church and cemetery making offerings, and 522 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: he heard them singing. The priest informed the bishop. Immediately 523 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: he was ordered by the latter to sleep in the church, 524 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: But the next night he was thrown out by the dead, 525 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: along with the bed he lay on. First of all, man, 526 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: this bishop is a tyrant, is oh, there's dead people 527 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: in the church, Well, you gotta sleep in there now. 528 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: But then they just they just threw him out, which 529 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: is kind of nice, you know, they just they just 530 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: threw they evicted him from the church. This is the 531 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: eviction of the living dead here, that's nice. Yeah, they 532 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: get the heck out of here. They just threw him 533 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: out and the bed he lay on. But then it 534 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: goes on terrified on account of what had happened. The 535 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: priest again complained to his superior about these things, but 536 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: the latter ordered that he should cross himself with saints 537 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: relics and be sprinkled with holy water, but on no 538 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: account cease guarding the church. The priest followed the bishop's command, 539 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: tried to sleep in the church again, but he was 540 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: struck with terror, and so lay wide awake and watchful, 541 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: and behold, at the accustomed hour the dead arrived. They 542 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: picked him up, they placed him upon the altar, and 543 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: they incinerated his body with fire down to a fine ash. 544 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: When the bishop heard about this, he ordered a three 545 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: day fast to be held for the sucker of the 546 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: dead man's soul. I could say much more, my son, 547 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: about all these things, if my illness did not prevent me. 548 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: As day is to the living, so night is conceded 549 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: to the dead. And there's that line we talked about 550 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: last time. Actually, I guess this means I may have 551 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,479 Speaker 1: falsely attributed that to tit Mar when he was actually 552 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: quoting bridget Well. This this is a great story, um. 553 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: And and they're they're apparently variations of this as well. 554 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: That uh Camillia Christiansen blog post from the Legends of 555 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: the North dot com um. She shares one variation from Lapland, 556 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: which involves a priest who dares to venture into the 557 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: church during the midnight mass of the dead. And he 558 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: even gets up in front and begins preaching a sermon 559 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: to the dead. And I believe he's also protected you 560 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: know by various uh you know, holy waters and and 561 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: and and signs and so forth. But the dead don't care. 562 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: And they care him apart, leaving only his intestines quote 563 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: carefully swirled about the pillars. WHOA, Yeah, so that's that's 564 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: pretty uh, I mean that that's that's above and beyond. 565 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I like the idea of them also just 566 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: burning him on the altar, but just tearing him apart 567 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: and decorating the place with his intestines like their their garlands. Uh, 568 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: that's also pretty nice. Well, one's more wicker man and 569 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: one's more splatter punk. Yeah. Now, one thing worth noticing 570 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,959 Speaker 1: about this tale, which is fun, is, as far as 571 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: I can tell, this third tale has no living witnesses. 572 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: So how does anybody know this happened? Well, I guess 573 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: they just found the ashes, right, They're like, what happened? 574 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: He burned up for the rest. Yeah, that's true. Okay, 575 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: I guess the only part they would really have to 576 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: supply would be the order of events the night he 577 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: gets burned. Yeah, I mean, it's possible that the living 578 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: dead were framed, but otherwise we know the living dead 579 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: hang out in here at night. They kicked him out 580 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: last time, and this time we found him burnt to 581 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: a crisp probably the living dead again. Well, you know, 582 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: another thing that's interesting here we're worth noticing is that 583 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: the reanimated dead bodies they take the priests, they don't 584 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: just kill him. They burn him to a fine ash, 585 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: meaning that he cannot be reanimated in bodily form like 586 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: they can. Interesting, and perhaps something similar is achieved by 587 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: just tearing him to pieces and stringing him up all 588 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: over the place. But there's a there's a whole subsection 589 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: of Cachiola's paper where she makes a very interesting connection 590 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: with this story, and it is this many of the 591 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: the European paganisms, and this probably would have been true 592 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: of some of the Slavic paganism that predated the Christianizing 593 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: mission of the Saxons here in this region. Uh, A 594 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: lot of these religions involved burnt offerings and sometimes probably 595 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: burnt offerings of human beings. And so it's conceivable, at 596 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: least in in Cachiola's presentation, that this story about taking 597 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: the priest. Now, notice they don't just kill him, They 598 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: put him all in the altar and burn him, suggesting 599 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: that this is a a deliberate form of worship, that 600 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: the burning itself is worshiped to them. Uh, and so 601 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: this is a sacrifice to the gods or to the ancestors. 602 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: That there might have been some blurring of the lines 603 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: there in in these pagan beliefs, And this I think 604 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: further suggests that the story we're getting here is some 605 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: kind of hybrid detailed. This is a tale that may 606 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: originally involve some kind of more Slavic pagan beliefs that 607 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: involve burnt offerings and human sacrifices, and that it has 608 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: been given a sort of Christian reframing to tame it. Now, 609 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: that's hard to know for sure, but um, it does 610 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: raise interesting questions. You might assume, Okay, now, if there 611 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: were sort of these underlying pagan elements in this story 612 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,479 Speaker 1: that then has gotten this Christian window dressing, why would 613 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: that be, I mean, is it just possibly that ghost 614 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: stories are difficult to drive out of the culture. Something 615 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: about them is too captivating, and you can you just 616 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: find that you can't really pry them out of people's minds. 617 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 1: So instead of trying to do that, what you might 618 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: do is try to reframe it to to make it 619 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: somewhat Christian, give it a generally Christian texture, even if 620 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: that leads to some sort of weird, contradictory or ambiguous elements, 621 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: like the fact that the dead are pious and murderous 622 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: at the same time. And then at least when you 623 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: do it that way, it makes it easier to give 624 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: it this uh, this persuasive framing that Titmar does, and say, 625 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: see the story that you believe, you know, the scary 626 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: tale that that you believe about the dead rising and 627 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: burning somebody at night, Well, that just proves Christian doctrines anyway, 628 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: at least sort of. And from here there's a whole 629 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: section in this article where Catchiolo gets into talking about 630 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: stories from the period, elements of these stories and other 631 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: stories that are somewhat related that suggests that the dead, 632 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: like the dead that we see, are not just sort 633 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: of like only existing in the moments that they haunt us, 634 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: and they're also not singly focused mindless zombies. But there 635 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: is instead a sort of rich afterlife for the Revenants, 636 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: that they appear to have a whole functioning society of 637 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: their own. Uh. Like one weird detail, and there's a 638 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,959 Speaker 1: lot of stuff like this in these stories. One weird 639 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: detail you might not notice at first. This is that 640 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 1: back in the first story that Tite Martel's, the dead 641 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: are said to be giving offerings to the priest. This 642 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: suggests that the dead have possessions, that the dead have 643 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: an economy, and this is consistent with other pagan influence 644 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: to medieval tales of the societies of the dead who 645 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: are said to lead full lives. Uh. There's one story 646 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: that she cites that is in something called the Chronicle 647 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: of Henry of Erfurt, where a dead man in the 648 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,439 Speaker 1: middle of the stories is speaking to a living man 649 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: and or speaking to a living person, and he says, 650 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: we eat, we drink, we take wives, we have children, 651 00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: we arrange the weddings of our daughters in the mayor 652 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: urges of our sons, we sow when we reap, and 653 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: various other things, just as you do. But then we 654 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: get the detail except they don't do it down in 655 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: town where everybody else does it, and they don't do 656 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: it on the farms with all the living. They do 657 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,479 Speaker 1: it inside the mountain of Sirenburg instead of down among 658 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: the living. Um. And and there's even more so there's 659 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,919 Speaker 1: weird stuff about how the dead are saying that they 660 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: are that they procreate right, that they have children, and 661 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: they have their children have weddings and stuff. And it's 662 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: also said that they have wars with other neighboring communities 663 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: of dead people. So there's like a separate world of 664 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: geopolitics entirely among the dead. Yeah, Like up there in 665 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: the mountains, there's a mountain in which the the good 666 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: revenants reside, and there's one where the warlike revenants reside, 667 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: and and inside you have these whole societies that, yeah, 668 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: where where there's reproduction, even undead babies being born and 669 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: growing up to live full lives. Uh underneath the mountain. 670 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: Uh uh. This this was fascinating to me. I wish 671 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: I could have found out more about it. I was, 672 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: I was looking it up a little bit. And this 673 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: is um uh that this uh, this is actually this 674 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: is modern day Serenberg in the German district of Casal. 675 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: Uh So it's uh, if you live in this area, 676 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: you go up to the mountains and make inquiries for 677 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: us and see if you can find these dead societies, 678 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: because this is usually something I mean, we don't even 679 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: really encounter this much in our our our fantas, our 680 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: modern fantasy world building, where you know, there are plenty 681 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: of people plowing away in the realms of the undead, 682 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, a lot of times, yeah, we don't, 683 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 1: we don't give much, we don't, we don't subscribe much 684 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,720 Speaker 1: in the way of culture to to our our fictionalized undead, 685 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: certainly not to the zombies. But but then you see 686 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: this sometimes with vampires, where they'll be we'll we'll, we'll 687 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: get all in, you know, on like vampire societies and 688 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: vampire kings and cultures and lords and so forth. But 689 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: even then you don't see a lot of like vampire 690 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: nurseries and then vampire babies going on. You know. Yeah, 691 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: I find it's almost all of the visions of of 692 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 1: life after death that I can think of present life 693 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: after death as in some way of a kind of 694 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: reduced richness, Like you might think that the closest thing 695 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: you can think of too the dead having rich lives 696 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: like this would be I don't know in in Christian 697 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: beliefs about like going to heaven or something. But even 698 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: then life has a kind of it's life is said 699 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: to be blissful and good and you enjoy God. But 700 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: there's not there's not like, uh much drama there. There's 701 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: not like a lot of like you know, politics and 702 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: people falling in love and having children and all that. 703 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 1: It has a reduced level of complexity when compared to 704 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: to life here on earth. And that seems like it's 705 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: always true. Like if you go back to old stories, 706 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: you know, pre Christian ideas of the afterlife, like in 707 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: uh uh in the Odyssey, when when Odysseus goes and 708 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: he hears about what what is life like in in 709 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: the afterlife? It sounds like it's it's happy, you know, 710 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: everybody's just like, well, there's nothing much to do, Like 711 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: it is that reduced level of richness. It sounds gloomy 712 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: and kind of like your brain isn't really there. It's 713 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: kind of kind of a fog of eternity. I think, 714 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: unless I'm mistaken, it's described that way in the Epic 715 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: of Gilgamesh that once a man is dead, it says 716 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: he he just sort of like lies down among the 717 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: dust and he eats dirt or something. Yeah, so you're 718 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: either doing that or it's like Hell is a place 719 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: where you are just always screaming, or Heaven is a 720 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: place where you're just always beaming and smiling. Yeah, not not, 721 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: not often a lot of added complexity. I mean, I 722 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: guess there are versions where hey, you're in heaven. Would 723 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:37,760 Speaker 1: you like to come back as a as an angel 724 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: and talk people off of bridges? Well you can do that, 725 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,919 Speaker 1: or I guess there are also some variations where it's like, hey, 726 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: you're in hell, um, but we have a we have 727 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: a whole system here and you can level up if 728 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: you work hard, level up. Yeah. Um the only or 729 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: something um. I was actually thinking about um Alan Moore's 730 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: run on Swamp thing. There's this whole plot where the 731 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 1: evil Dr Anton Arcane has his soul has gone to Hell, 732 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: but he's just so evil that he works his way 733 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: up through the ranks and eventually gets a place of 734 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: power again. He's a real go getter, Yeah, he is. Um. 735 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: As far as like the Undead Reproduction, the only fictional 736 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 1: examples that come to mind or or first of all, 737 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: the Crypt Keeper, where in which there is one episode 738 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: of Tales for the Crypt where we're given his backstory 739 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 1: and we find out that his mom is a mummy, 740 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: So his mom is reanimated corpse, but his dad is 741 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: a like two faced um circus mutant kind of a situation. 742 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: So there's that, and um, oh, speaking of mummies, maybe 743 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,919 Speaker 1: maybe Egyptian afterlife has a sort of has a level 744 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: of richness and complexity, oh very much. So, yes, it 745 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: certainly we can't forget that if you're looking at the 746 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: Egyptian afterlife. The Egyptian afterlife is an idea where you 747 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,240 Speaker 1: are going into an entire world where you will need resources, 748 00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: you will need spells, you will have to navigate various 749 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: obstacles and enemies. It's yeah, the Egyptian after after life 750 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: is a strong example to bring up, for sure. The 751 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: other undead example that comes to mind, though, is that 752 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: I believe it now in two different zombie films, director 753 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: Zack Snyder has betrayed um a strong interest in zombie reproduction. 754 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: He seems to really into the idea of of zombie 755 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: newborns and so forth. So, um, I don't know, take 756 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: that take that for as you will. I don't know. 757 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: If he makes another zombie film, maybe he'll expand on that. 758 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: We can only hope. All right, but you know enough 759 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: about about zombie movies. Let's get back to Christmas stuff. Okay, 760 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: That's that's what people want to hear about. And uh 761 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: and indeed, I want to come back to the idea 762 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: of youule tide revenants, Christmas zombies. I was reading The 763 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: Ghosts of Christmas Past by Sarah Hoffman. This was published 764 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: in eighteen by the Institute of European and Mediterranean Archaeology 765 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: in the Chronica Journal. The paper centers on local customs 766 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: and beliefs about the dead and the Catholic Church of St. 767 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: Nicholas on and near the island of hof Gary in Iceland. 768 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,720 Speaker 1: So this is off the western coast of Iceland, north 769 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: of Kivik, but not not far off the coast. It 770 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 1: can be reached by boat or over the frozen ice. 771 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: So the church and cemetery here served as a major 772 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: funerary and burial destination for a large portion of western 773 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: Iceland from about twelve hundred to fifteen sixty three. Then 774 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: the church winds cemetery were both closed during the Lutheran 775 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: Reformation and the island was abandoned. Now, the author here 776 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: notes that you know, when we talk about the Lutheran 777 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: Reformation like this was a this was a time of 778 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: of of great change um and and often violent change. 779 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: She notes that the last Fli bishop in Iceland, John Arson, 780 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,479 Speaker 1: was executed by beheading in fifteen fifty, during the height 781 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: of the Lutheran Reformation. So after this took place, after 782 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 1: this place was abandoned, uh stories about the island and 783 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: about the church and the graveyard there. They kind of 784 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: dealt with the abandonment in different ways, both to reinforce 785 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: the abandonment and to excuse it by turning the island 786 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: into a kind of forsaken and dangerous place. And this 787 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 1: comes to involve revenance. Of course, Hoffman naturally discusses the 788 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: corporeal nature of of these undead. Quote, these restless dead 789 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,280 Speaker 1: often emerge as a result of improper death or unfinished business, 790 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: frequently overlapping with Christmas or Yule Tide. So remember we 791 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: we've already gone through a few different examples. But even 792 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 1: that example from the Gretist saka Um that where you 793 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: have the you know, the battle, the wrestling match against 794 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: the undead beast with the Moon in its eyes that 795 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: takes place at Christmas and well as well, and she 796 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,479 Speaker 1: points out that most of these tales take place during 797 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: a festival of transition, uh you know in in this 798 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,359 Speaker 1: example Christmas Cereal Tide, and are often set during a 799 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,399 Speaker 1: time period of transition, in this case transition to either 800 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: transition to Christianity or transition from Catholicism to a Protestant 801 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: faith and um in in the in cases of where 802 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: it's like a Christian pagan situation we often see, the 803 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: Christian heroes are the ones that are usually the individuals 804 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: who are able to bring some sort of finality to 805 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: this disruption involving the undead. However, she does share a 806 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: tale in which the new religion does not seem to 807 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: be enough. Quote in the story of the Deacon of 808 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: of Mirca, a deacon of of Edge of florid Or 809 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: fell in love with a woman named good Run who 810 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,399 Speaker 1: lived on the opposite shore of a fjord valley. One 811 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: day near Christmas, the deacon attempted to cross the for 812 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: was in river to meet his beloved, only to fall 813 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: through the ice to his death. His ghost returned to 814 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 1: torment guruin for two weeks, and while a priest was 815 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,320 Speaker 1: unable to help, a sorcerer quote skilled in witchcraft finally 816 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,760 Speaker 1: managed to exercise the ghost. This is interesting because I um, 817 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,360 Speaker 1: I remember from years ago when I visited Iceland a 818 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: story about a story from somewhere I went about a 819 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,839 Speaker 1: guy who died trying to cross a river to see 820 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,840 Speaker 1: his beloved. But I wondered, But I don't think it 821 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: was in a fjord valley. I think it was more inland. 822 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,760 Speaker 1: So maybe they're just multiple stories like that. I think so, 823 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: based on what the author here shares. There are a 824 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: few key things here. First of all, when we're talking, 825 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 1: First of all, we're dealing with a part of the 826 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: world in which, yes, the bodies of water will freeze 827 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,920 Speaker 1: and you can cross them on foot, but there's always 828 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: the possibility that you will break through and then you're 829 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: in the water, the chilling water, uh, and you may 830 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 1: drown and then drowning, especially when you're dealing with death 831 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: at sea, this is said to leave one in a 832 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,399 Speaker 1: state stuck between worlds. Uh. So there are a lot 833 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 1: of tales involving drowned revenance. In fact, we already shared 834 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: one in the first episode about the the guys going 835 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 1: to the feast and showing up anyway even though their 836 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,320 Speaker 1: their boat um uh you know, wrecked and they drowned 837 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: on the way. Um. So this you know, the idea 838 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: that those who die in the water are especially prone 839 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: to return. And we actually see this in one of 840 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: the tales told to affirm the cursed nature of this 841 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: particular church, this abandoned church. The account says that on 842 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,319 Speaker 1: Christmas even fifteen sixty three, the priests and parishioners of 843 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,879 Speaker 1: the church were walking back to their farms over the 844 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: frozen tidal flats. So they were broken walking back to 845 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: the mainland essentially from this island. And what happened while 846 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,160 Speaker 1: the ice broke halfway and everyone drowned. So in the 847 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: entire church drowns in the water, and of course by 848 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,320 Speaker 1: virtue of that, they are going to be lost souls 849 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: now m The author adds here that the waters off 850 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,360 Speaker 1: the coast were were dangerous, and it was apparently common 851 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 1: enough to discover human bodies washed upon the shore from 852 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: shipwrecks and um. And many of these were even as 853 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:19,919 Speaker 1: an as an added note, they were they were said 854 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,880 Speaker 1: to have occurred on Christmas, so you'd be out on 855 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,200 Speaker 1: Christmas Day and then here are bodies washed up on 856 00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,760 Speaker 1: the shore. And if you were to find these bodies, 857 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: it's your personal responsibility, uh, to help those bodies have 858 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,400 Speaker 1: a proper Christian burial, otherwise you're going to be cursed 859 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: and the Revenant will follow you until the end of 860 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: your days. Which reminds me of that that account of 861 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: the moonlight in the eyes of the undead creature that 862 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 1: gretted the strong battles and how he's essentially, uh, you know, 863 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: just shaken for the rest of his life because he 864 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: saw it. But anyway, but the idea of this, the 865 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: story of the lost congregation drowned in the ice um 866 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 1: it was. It was apparently bounded because after the church's abandonment, 867 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: the church decayed, but not only that, the burial grounds eroded. 868 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,919 Speaker 1: And when burial grounds erode, what happens, well, the dead 869 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: appeared to rise, the dead are revealed, and this ended 870 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,200 Speaker 1: up requiring several waves of reburial, uh, you know, people 871 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: having to to go out and make sure that these 872 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: bodies were given a proper burial again so that they 873 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,839 Speaker 1: might rest. But the tail as the author the point 874 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: they're making is that you have stories like this that 875 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,319 Speaker 1: we're about sort of giving a reason why the place 876 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,279 Speaker 1: was abandoned. While it's an evil place, it's curse, the 877 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,840 Speaker 1: dead are coming up through the ground, um. But also 878 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,280 Speaker 1: it's kind of compounding this idea that like the people 879 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,560 Speaker 1: of the church were abandoned that there, you know, it's 880 00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,760 Speaker 1: it's a part of like making sense of of people 881 00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 1: lost during a time of transition, um. Not only a 882 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,759 Speaker 1: transition between you know, one land and another, you know, 883 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 1: between one of the crossing of the bay here um 884 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,480 Speaker 1: or crossing a frozen body of water, but also like 885 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,200 Speaker 1: lost in this transition between Catholicism and uh and protestant 886 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,880 Speaker 1: is um. You know. This has makes me think of 887 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:15,399 Speaker 1: one last way to maybe interpret the the apparent contradiction 888 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,320 Speaker 1: and these stories of the church going un dead, these uh, 889 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,240 Speaker 1: you know, these lost beings that are at the same 890 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 1: time doing something that is apparently good and holy, but 891 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: then also they are menacing, which is that And again 892 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: this would connect to the you know, the kinds of 893 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: lives lead under the Mountain of Sirenburg as well. That 894 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,439 Speaker 1: that just conveys complexity like that, um. You know, there's 895 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,560 Speaker 1: a kind of confusion, ambiguity, and complexity to real life 896 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,879 Speaker 1: as well. People. There are tons of people who subscribe 897 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,720 Speaker 1: to whatever religion you think is the right one, and 898 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 1: and you would think it is good when they go 899 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,720 Speaker 1: and worship in that religion. And then they also probably 900 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,279 Speaker 1: will turn around in some cases and be menacing and 901 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: threatening and terrifying. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, um yeah, yeah, the 902 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 1: idea of the the churchgoers turning around and attacking you, 903 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,279 Speaker 1: I mean that may that may well track with with 904 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,120 Speaker 1: with some of your experiences with the with living congregations, 905 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: so um, you know, it's I think ultimately, yeah, I 906 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:14,719 Speaker 1: think one of the things to take away from this 907 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,400 Speaker 1: is that these stories are you know, do have a 908 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,440 Speaker 1: complexity to them. They're they're probably saying multiple things. They're 909 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 1: kept around there, not only kept around, but you know, 910 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:28,800 Speaker 1: intentionally kept around because they fulfill various purposes in life, 911 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: explaining things, um, making excuses for things um. And also 912 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,919 Speaker 1: like and also just like keeping keeping occurrences alive too, 913 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,400 Speaker 1: like you know, we we what is literally the idea 914 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,279 Speaker 1: of a haunting. You know, it's the idea that the 915 00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: dead won't completely rest and they keep saying something or 916 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: they keep appearing and and and sometimes it seems that's 917 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,560 Speaker 1: a it's about you know, it's obviously more about the living, 918 00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,880 Speaker 1: like we won't let those dead rest, and we have 919 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,359 Speaker 1: stories about them, uh, to help them stay alive. Yes, 920 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 1: in the same way that we probably wouldn't embrace revenant realism. 921 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 1: But you can certainly imagine how if you do find 922 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,800 Speaker 1: a body washed up on the shore, it's a dead person, 923 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: and you see it and you do nothing about it, 924 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,960 Speaker 1: that may well follow you for the rest of your 925 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: life in your brain. And uh yeah, and I think 926 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,480 Speaker 1: the same could probably be said to be true about 927 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 1: these tales. You know, people are probably not getting up 928 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 1: out of their graves to go to church at night, 929 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,800 Speaker 1: but it is reflecting some kind of lingering, unresolved anxieties 930 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: within say these frontier lands in in in the process 931 00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: of Christianizing a continent where where where people have memories 932 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,200 Speaker 1: of the past and fears that they can't really face, 933 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 1: and these come through in the form of narratives that 934 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: have strange contradictions within them. Yeah, all right, Well, we're 935 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,160 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and close out there, but we'd love 936 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,160 Speaker 1: to hear from everyone if you've you've heard other variations 937 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,719 Speaker 1: of these tales. Of church going revenants right in let 938 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,680 Speaker 1: us know, especially if you have if you live in 939 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: or have connections to some of the parts of the 940 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,279 Speaker 1: world that we've specifically discussed in these episodes. Also, I 941 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 1: have to say I looked around, I was I was 942 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,719 Speaker 1: hoping I could find some examples from other cultures where 943 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:11,400 Speaker 1: you have either a corporeal or non corporeal entity, that is, 944 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: you know, going to a church, where a temple and 945 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,719 Speaker 1: engaging in some sort of pious activity. And um, I'm 946 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,080 Speaker 1: I'm surely I missed something, but I wasn't able to 947 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,800 Speaker 1: find anything. I found plenty of examples of various spirits 948 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 1: that were there to sort of maliciously punish those who 949 00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,680 Speaker 1: were who were engaging in impiety, you know, that that 950 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,759 Speaker 1: that we're you know, disgracing a temple or a church, 951 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,239 Speaker 1: that sort of thing or mischief makers you know, um, 952 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,160 Speaker 1: demons or angels that make um, you know, monks fart 953 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,520 Speaker 1: during the uh you know, during a mass or something. 954 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,160 Speaker 1: But uh, yeah, I wasn't find able to find anything 955 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 1: that really stacks up with this idea of the of 956 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,120 Speaker 1: the pious undead. But if I'm missing something, and surely 957 00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 1: I am, then I would love to hear about them, 958 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,759 Speaker 1: so right in, let us know. Yeah, I bet that 959 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 1: exists in the media. Yeah, because I mean there's so 960 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,280 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there are a lot of wonderful undead 961 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,440 Speaker 1: uh examples from around the world. I was running across 962 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,040 Speaker 1: plenty that we're interesting in their own right. You know, 963 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:15,560 Speaker 1: various things raised by sorcerers and wizards and and which 964 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,799 Speaker 1: is things, um, you know, various ghosts, your kai and 965 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,960 Speaker 1: so forth. But nothing that really matched up with what 966 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:24,799 Speaker 1: we were talking about here. But like I said, if 967 00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 1: I missed it, right in and let us know. In 968 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,080 Speaker 1: the meantime, if you would like to check out other 969 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,520 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you'll find core 970 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,879 Speaker 1: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow 971 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,839 Speaker 1: Your Mind podcast feed Artifact episodes on Wednesday, listener mail 972 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,280 Speaker 1: on Mondays, and on Friday, we do Weird House Cinema. 973 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,799 Speaker 1: That's our time to set most serious concerns aside and 974 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,800 Speaker 1: just focus on a strange or unusual film, which thanks 975 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 976 00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,160 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 977 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,800 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 978 00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:57,880 Speaker 1: a topic, for the future. Just to say hello, you 979 00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,719 Speaker 1: can email us at contact that's TOFF to Blow your 980 00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:10,960 Speaker 1: Mind dot com Stuff to Blow your Mind is production 981 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,760 Speaker 1: of i heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart radio, 982 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,320 Speaker 1: this is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 983 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:30,640 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.