1
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,520
Speaker 1: So hi everyone, It's Laurie and I'm here with Guy

2
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,799
Speaker 1: as usual, but today we're here with a third person,

3
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,360
Speaker 1: and that is Ben Bernstein. Ben is training to be

4
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,640
Speaker 1: a therapist, and he is the person who first talks

5
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,799
Speaker 1: to our guests before Guy and I have any inkling

6
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 1: of what we're in for. So Ben is the person

7
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 1: who interviews the people who write into us and helps

8
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 1: us to see who might be right for an episode.

9
00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,040
Speaker 1: And we wanted to talk with Ben because when we

10
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,559
Speaker 1: do our session, sometimes we look back on them and

11
00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,200
Speaker 1: we say that went really well. We really got through

12
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 1: to this person, and then there are times when maybe

13
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,800
Speaker 1: we didn't get through in the way that we wanted to,

14
00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,279
Speaker 1: and we thought it would be interesting for everybody to

15
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 1: hear a little bit about our process and what we're

16
00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,760
Speaker 1: thinking at certain moments in some of the episodes that

17
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,400
Speaker 1: you've heard this season. So today we're going to look

18
00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,840
Speaker 1: in an episode where we didn't quite get through in

19
00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 1: the way we wanted to, and we're going to unpack

20
00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:01,120
Speaker 1: that a little bit with Ben.

21
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,600
Speaker 2: And we're going to start with a recent episode and

22
00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,319
Speaker 2: our guests were Becca and Jake. So Ben, tell us

23
00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,319
Speaker 2: about your conversations with them before the episode was taped.

24
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,360
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on. I love this episode. In

25
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,040
Speaker 3: this episode, just to sort of frame it for listeners,

26
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,559
Speaker 3: we hear from Becca, who is a woman who loves

27
00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,080
Speaker 3: her partner Jake, but she worries about his anger towards

28
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 3: their young children, Isabella and Dean, and she's considering whether

29
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,120
Speaker 3: she should leave Jake to protect the kids. When I

30
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 3: first spoke with them, I wasn't sure where a potential

31
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,119
Speaker 3: episode would go. I thought it could go in one

32
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,000
Speaker 3: of two directions. Either it could focus on Jake's anger

33
00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,880
Speaker 3: towards his kids, or maybe additionally, it could focus on

34
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,399
Speaker 3: Becka and Jake's relationship with each other, and in a way,

35
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 3: I was curious to see where you guys would take

36
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,800
Speaker 3: it and how you would navigate what were to in

37
00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,600
Speaker 3: some ways separate relationships in some ways connected relationships. So

38
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,400
Speaker 3: here's a clip of what you both said before the

39
00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:58,200
Speaker 3: session started.

40
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,960
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because says that there's no abuse, but

41
00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 2: lashing out at children verbally is a form of emotional abuse,

42
00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,920
Speaker 2: so certainly can be when it's harsh and it goes

43
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,160
Speaker 2: on over time. So I'm really glad that Jake is

44
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,680
Speaker 2: actually joining us today because it sounds like something we

45
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,480
Speaker 2: really need to talk to both parents about to get

46
00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,760
Speaker 2: an understanding of what's going on and why and what

47
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:22,840
Speaker 2: can change there.

48
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Emotional violence is abuse, and it has long

49
00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 1: lasting effects, and it can be very traumatic, especially when

50
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 1: it's ongoing. And when it's ongoing, we call that complex

51
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 1: trauma because it's not one event, it's multiple events happening

52
00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,480
Speaker 1: all the time. And it sounds like Jake realizes that

53
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,639
Speaker 1: something needs to change, but he's having trouble doing the changing,

54
00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 1: and that's why I think it's important that we're having

55
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 1: both of them on.

56
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 3: One of my first questions for you is whether the

57
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 3: problem of a father yelling at his kids brings anything

58
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,280
Speaker 3: up for you both, or there are any things on

59
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,880
Speaker 3: your mind as you were starting the session that maybe

60
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,280
Speaker 3: influenced the direction you decided to ultimately take.

61
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,400
Speaker 1: Well, I think for me as a parent, whenever I

62
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 1: hear something like that, I always have a visceral reaction

63
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: to it. And I think one of the challenges we

64
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,520
Speaker 1: all have as therapists is if there is something that

65
00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 1: touches us personally in our lives that we're going to

66
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 1: have to be really careful about separating out our own

67
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,359
Speaker 1: feelings about it in order to get into the world

68
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,120
Speaker 1: of the other person and really have compassion for that

69
00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 1: person and be able to hold that person both in

70
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,640
Speaker 1: terms of holding them accountable, but also holding whatever pain

71
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 1: is causing them to behave in this way.

72
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,160
Speaker 2: And for me as well, whenever I have a case

73
00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 2: in which they're young children who are being impacted negatively,

74
00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,080
Speaker 2: there's a huge urgency that I feel to get a

75
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,600
Speaker 2: result quickly, to do something, because every day that Puss

76
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 2: is in which that situation continues, is more and more

77
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 2: damage for those kids. And so yeah, I felt a

78
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 2: certain urgency and hope that we could actually have an

79
00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,840
Speaker 2: impact that would make a difference, not just for Becca,

80
00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,240
Speaker 2: but especially for their kids, so that their kids would

81
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:17,080
Speaker 2: be in a better place.

82
00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,159
Speaker 1: And I should say too, as our listeners know, we

83
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 1: don't talk about the cases beforehand, so what you heard

84
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,280
Speaker 1: was in the episode being taped at the moment right

85
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,839
Speaker 1: before they came on. But we don't have any conversations

86
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 1: before the tape is running. So when we hear the letter,

87
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,640
Speaker 1: we're both just formulating our ideas out loud along with

88
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,080
Speaker 1: the listeners so that they can hear how we're thinking

89
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 1: about it before we actually bring the guests on, but

90
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,280
Speaker 1: it happens immediately, there's no time to process it.

91
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,840
Speaker 2: Then I want to get back to that question of

92
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,920
Speaker 2: what your impressions were when you spoke to each of them.

93
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,559
Speaker 2: What were your impressions of each of them? And given

94
00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 2: those impressions, where did you think the session should go.

95
00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,600
Speaker 3: So I was really struck by how different they were

96
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,240
Speaker 3: from each other this couple. Becca was talking, even in

97
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,480
Speaker 3: our short conversation, initially about the feelings of her child

98
00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,840
Speaker 3: and wanting to sort of give her a feelings vocabulary,

99
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,400
Speaker 3: and Jake, while present and seemingly trying to participate, I think,

100
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,279
Speaker 3: just didn't have that same kind of focus when it

101
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,919
Speaker 3: came to parenting, even though it came across to me

102
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,279
Speaker 3: that he loved his kids very much. I was also

103
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,000
Speaker 3: concerned about Jake shutting down because even in the pre

104
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 3: screen there was maybe some moments where it seemed like

105
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 3: his level of insight about why he was doing certain

106
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 3: things or saying certain things might be limited. But I

107
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,080
Speaker 3: also hope that in a session that could be loosened

108
00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 3: or the two of you would be able to find

109
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,600
Speaker 3: a way to open him up in a way. And

110
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,200
Speaker 3: I think that in certain ways you really did, and

111
00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,360
Speaker 3: in other ways, I think he remained pretty defended, meaning

112
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,040
Speaker 3: I think he found it hard to talk about his

113
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 3: feelings at a certain level. With all that said, I'm

114
00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,159
Speaker 3: curious as you started into the session the first question

115
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,360
Speaker 3: that you ask or to Jake, And I'm just going

116
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:03,920
Speaker 3: to play the brief clip so you can hear it

117
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 3: as well.

118
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 1: Jake, why don't you tell us a little bit about

119
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 1: your experience of early in the relationship and then the

120
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,119
Speaker 1: first pregnancy and first experience of being a parent.

121
00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,160
Speaker 3: What made you, guys decide to start with Jake and

122
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,880
Speaker 3: ask about the pregnancy and the beginning of the relationship

123
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,599
Speaker 3: as sort of a pivot point for being off the session.

124
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:23,920
Speaker 1: Well, I think, first of all, the letter was written

125
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,520
Speaker 1: by Becca, and you know, we've done a lot of

126
00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,599
Speaker 1: couples this season, and I think it's always interesting to

127
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,920
Speaker 1: see who's writing and then to be able to hear

128
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,039
Speaker 1: something from the other person, because we've already heard something

129
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,479
Speaker 1: from the person who wrote the letter. And the other

130
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,960
Speaker 1: part was that question was very intentional. When somebody is

131
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,839
Speaker 1: acting in a certain way toward their children, we're going

132
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,159
Speaker 1: to want to know about what childhood was like for them.

133
00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,920
Speaker 1: But we also want to know the origin story of

134
00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,000
Speaker 1: these children coming into this person's life. And as we

135
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,359
Speaker 1: heard with Jake, the first pregnancy was not expected. He

136
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,520
Speaker 1: was not ready for it, and he felt so much

137
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,680
Speaker 1: loss around the life that he had when this pregnancy

138
00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,000
Speaker 1: came to be, So that was a really important factor.

139
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,400
Speaker 1: What happened during the session was it was hard for

140
00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,480
Speaker 1: him to connect some of those feelings with the ways

141
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,559
Speaker 1: in which he felt trapped, and then he would act

142
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,080
Speaker 1: out and he would get disregulated in front of his kids.

143
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,400
Speaker 2: There's a similarity between somebody writing a letter for a

144
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,680
Speaker 2: couple's session and somebody contacting us by a phone or

145
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,880
Speaker 2: email for a couple session, because in each of those cases,

146
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,240
Speaker 2: what we're going to do when we see the couple

147
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 2: is we're going to start with a person who didn't

148
00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,040
Speaker 2: create that contact, because now we've already had contact with

149
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,360
Speaker 2: one member of the couple, we want the other member

150
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,320
Speaker 2: of the couple to feel comfortable, so we'll typically begin

151
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 2: with the other member of the couple. And how someone

152
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,360
Speaker 2: reacts to the news of pregnancy can be very indicative

153
00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,960
Speaker 2: about their feelings their positions that they will then carry

154
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 2: forward throughout the pregnancy and even into the early years

155
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 2: of the child. It was important to get a sense

156
00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 2: of the raw moment for him.

157
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seemed to really be a great way for

158
00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 3: him to get in touch with the fear that he

159
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 3: had and the grief that he eventually got to about

160
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 3: losing sort of a single life and being able to

161
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,320
Speaker 3: go out on the weekends with his friends, right.

162
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 2: And in this case, it was also helpful because it

163
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:23,080
Speaker 2: was clear that now we're four years in and he

164
00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 2: still has a lot of those feelings. A lot of

165
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,000
Speaker 2: times somebody will say, well, I at the time I felt, oh,

166
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,480
Speaker 2: I'm not ready for this, but by now I couldn't

167
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 2: imagine life without the kids. And it's clear that they've

168
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,000
Speaker 2: processed things, that they've moved forward in that journey. It

169
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,520
Speaker 2: was also clear that Jake hadn't done that much, and

170
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 2: so that he really was stuck a little bit back

171
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 2: in the Wow, I've lost so much here, And not

172
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,640
Speaker 2: that he doesn't love his kids. He does, but he

173
00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 2: hasn't processed that loss much at all, and that was

174
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 2: clear from his response as well.

175
00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,680
Speaker 3: I felt like one of the key understandings that you

176
00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,839
Speaker 3: guys got to pretty early on with Jake was the

177
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,679
Speaker 3: outbursts and as kids were awaited to pent up feelings.

178
00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to play a clip.

179
00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,160
Speaker 2: Now, it's a philosophy that you have that one shouldn't share.

180
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,080
Speaker 2: It's better for you to not let her know how

181
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 2: you're feeling.

182
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,360
Speaker 4: About things, I mean certain things. If it's a big

183
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,320
Speaker 4: enough issue, yes I would share. But if it's something

184
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 4: that's going to blow over, or it's only a small thing,

185
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 4: then I'll just deal with it.

186
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,000
Speaker 2: So the question is whether it indeed blows over or

187
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,679
Speaker 2: whether over time these feelings accumulate and then they come

188
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:34,960
Speaker 2: out in other ways.

189
00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's definitely times where I blow up and it

190
00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,439
Speaker 4: comes out in anger, for sure.

191
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:48,000
Speaker 3: So how quickly did you guys pinpoint that pent up emotion,

192
00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,440
Speaker 3: that pent up feeling as the source of Jake's outbursts?

193
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,080
Speaker 3: And I guess more importantly than that even is once

194
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,360
Speaker 3: you feel like you see a link like that, how

195
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 3: do you decide when and how to share it?

196
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,080
Speaker 2: Well, that's something that we probably see very very quickly,

197
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,559
Speaker 2: but we're not going to really bring it up until

198
00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 2: we've accumulated at least a couple of pieces of evidence,

199
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,079
Speaker 2: because it's not about whether this makes sense to us,

200
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,400
Speaker 2: it's about whether it makes sense to the other person.

201
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,439
Speaker 2: So unless we can tie it into their behavior, their

202
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,960
Speaker 2: experience as they've described it, it might not resonate with

203
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 2: them as much. So we sometimes have to gather a

204
00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,800
Speaker 2: bit more information, and then when we feel we have

205
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 2: enough data points to show them a pattern, then we

206
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 2: can show them a pattern. But we'll usually start looking

207
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,719
Speaker 2: for those data points early on because we can then

208
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,120
Speaker 2: illustrate the pattern to the person.

209
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 1: I think that's such a great question because in the

210
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,640
Speaker 1: therapy room, when we have more time, I always think

211
00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 1: about it as timing and dosage. So it's are you

212
00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,559
Speaker 1: going to say it at the right moment and how

213
00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,200
Speaker 1: much of it are you going to deliver in one

214
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,559
Speaker 1: moment or one session. And I think that the difficulty

215
00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 1: that we ran into with Jake was just how compartment

216
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:06,160
Speaker 1: mentalized he was in terms of holding the fact that, yes,

217
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 1: I know that this is having a detrimental effect on

218
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 1: my children, and then there were moments in the session

219
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 1: when he would even say, but I'm not going to

220
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 1: do anything about it. And so as a listener, you

221
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,120
Speaker 1: might think, Wow, I really don't like this guy, or

222
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,960
Speaker 1: he lacks empathy, or think all kinds of uncharitable things

223
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,760
Speaker 1: about him. But I think that that's the power of

224
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:34,040
Speaker 1: that compartmentalization. And when we did go back to explore

225
00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,160
Speaker 1: where that came from with his childhood, there were some

226
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,040
Speaker 1: connections there, there was some stuff with his dad, but

227
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,680
Speaker 1: he wasn't really able to get into it. He'd say

228
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,240
Speaker 1: two different things about the relationship with his dad. No,

229
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,560
Speaker 1: there wasn't yelling. Yes, there was yelling. No, there wasn't this,

230
00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 1: Yes there was this. No, we got along. No, we

231
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,560
Speaker 1: kind of didn't get along. It was challenging because we

232
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,640
Speaker 1: didn't really have a relationship with him yet. And I

233
00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,520
Speaker 1: think when I look back on that session, what I

234
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,079
Speaker 1: wish that we had focused more on was Becca, because

235
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 1: she was more accessible to us, and because she was

236
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 1: more accessible, we didn't really push her. We were pushing

237
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 1: Jake so hard because we felt that urgency. Like Guy said,

238
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,120
Speaker 1: when there are kids involved, there's that urgency, and he

239
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,439
Speaker 1: was the one who was doing the yelling. And I think,

240
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,840
Speaker 1: to speak just for me, I feel like my error

241
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,520
Speaker 1: was not really saying, Okay, I'm not really getting where

242
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,400
Speaker 1: I want to get with Jake. I'll seem to get

243
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,839
Speaker 1: there a little bit, and then there's that window in

244
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,840
Speaker 1: the window is slam shut. So with Becca, the question

245
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 1: was are we holding her accountable? So she's colluding in

246
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,840
Speaker 1: this too. These are her kids too, and she has

247
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 1: agreed to stay in this situation. Even though she might

248
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: make noises about leaving, she really didn't seem ready to

249
00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 1: take action. She didn't really seem ready to protect her kids.

250
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 1: She would talk about it almost like as a threat

251
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 1: to Jake to get him to change. So we didn't

252
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 1: really explore with Becca what she was willing to do

253
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 1: in terms of making changes and what her role was

254
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,319
Speaker 1: in this marriage as well.

255
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,440
Speaker 2: For me, I made a point with Jake about the

256
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,240
Speaker 2: fact that he has all these feelings bubbling up and

257
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,240
Speaker 2: his go to strategy for managing his anger is just

258
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 2: to focus on being a stronger cork to keep the

259
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 2: cork in the bottle. And the problem I think we

260
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,679
Speaker 2: ran into with him is that he didn't want to

261
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 2: dip into his feelings at all. So this whole idea

262
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,760
Speaker 2: of can we take away some of the bubbles in

263
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,559
Speaker 2: the bottle so there's less pressure coming from the bottle

264
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,200
Speaker 2: rather than you just trying to get a bigger cork

265
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,439
Speaker 2: is where we tried to explore with him, and that's

266
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,040
Speaker 2: the thing that he was very, very resistant to. Whenever

267
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,319
Speaker 2: it came to talk about his feelings and his emotions

268
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,840
Speaker 2: and what's really going on with him, he was more about,

269
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,600
Speaker 2: let me just try harder not to explode, and that

270
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 2: obviously is not a useful gambit. And I think that's

271
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,240
Speaker 2: also what happened in how he dealt with the advance.

272
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,400
Speaker 2: He just deferred back to, like, I'll strain harder and

273
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,680
Speaker 2: that will make a difference when when it won't. My

274
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 2: thinking about Becker is as follows. We have three opportunities

275
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,520
Speaker 2: to get through to people. We have the session in

276
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,080
Speaker 2: which we try to get through to them. We have

277
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,920
Speaker 2: the homework, which we think about carefully as a way

278
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,080
Speaker 2: for them to get those messages that we have tried

279
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 2: to convey in the session and to implement them and

280
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 2: to internalize them and think about them. But then we

281
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,640
Speaker 2: also have the idea that they will be listening to

282
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,160
Speaker 2: the session afterwards. First, they will hear a lot of

283
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,720
Speaker 2: things that they didn't quite hear when they were in

284
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,920
Speaker 2: the session. They will also hear us talking about things

285
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,640
Speaker 2: before and after the session, and we often leave messages

286
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 2: for them. We often say and if you're listening, consider this,

287
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,120
Speaker 2: So we get three rounds in which we can try

288
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,560
Speaker 2: and have an impact, and I do keep that in mind.

289
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,000
Speaker 2: And my hope with Beca was that we did enough

290
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 2: in the session and in the home book and in

291
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,880
Speaker 2: our discussion that she will be able to hear things

292
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 2: after the session as well.

293
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be very curious to hear how Beca reacts

294
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,160
Speaker 1: when she's listening to the session and we asked, Jake,

295
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 1: are you willing to do something about this? Or does

296
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,800
Speaker 1: it matter enough to do something about this? And then

297
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,280
Speaker 1: also listening to that part where he had trouble with

298
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,480
Speaker 1: imagining that letter from the kids years later when they're

299
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:43,160
Speaker 1: adults if this yelling continues, and he was like, it's

300
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,960
Speaker 1: not realistic. I couldn't really get into that. So he

301
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 1: had all kinds of reasons. But I wonder if that

302
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,920
Speaker 1: will get past Becka's defenses as she listens to that.

303
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,040
Speaker 1: So it's not a conversation that she's actively engaged in.

304
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 1: It's one that she's sitting back now and hearing. And

305
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,080
Speaker 1: sometimes when you hear it right there, you hear that

306
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 1: interaction being played for you, it has a different impact

307
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 1: than when it's happening in the moment.

308
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,480
Speaker 2: The one thing I would have done differently in that

309
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 2: session with Beckham is I would have helped her define

310
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 2: what her line in the sand is. What are the

311
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,480
Speaker 2: parameters that if Jake really exceeds them, if he does

312
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,920
Speaker 2: X or doesn't do why she will conclude that she

313
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 2: actually has to leave for the sake of the children.

314
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 2: I think that she hasn't defined to herself what those

315
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 2: limits are, and that's something that's making it difficult for

316
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 2: her and for Jake, because he should know them as well.

317
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 1: The thing is, we talk a lot about boundaries on

318
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 1: our episodes, and one of the things we always say

319
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 1: about boundaries is that a boundary isn't just something you

320
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 1: set with someone else, it's something you set with yourself.

321
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 1: And I don't think that she has set a boundary

322
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,320
Speaker 1: with herself that if this doesn't change my boundary, is

323
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 1: this for the sake of protecting my kids exactly. One

324
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 1: of the things that happens with boundaries is it's not

325
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 1: just setting the boundary, it's maintaining the boundary. And so

326
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,920
Speaker 1: I think that Jake has gotten used to Becca setting

327
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 1: boundaries or attempting to set boundaries, but then he knows

328
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,240
Speaker 1: that she's not going to follow through, so he has

329
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,360
Speaker 1: no real motivation to respect the boundary because his motivation

330
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,720
Speaker 1: should be for the benefit of my children. But because

331
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,879
Speaker 1: he's in such denial about the long term impact of

332
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 1: this on his kids. The big thing that I think

333
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,800
Speaker 1: is right in front of him is he really doesn't

334
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,520
Speaker 1: want to lose Becca. And I think he knows he's

335
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,720
Speaker 1: not going to lose Becca because Becca has shown him

336
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 1: time and time again. I will set this boundary, and

337
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,159
Speaker 1: then you will break the boundary, and I will do

338
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,480
Speaker 1: nothing about it except complain about it. But then it'll

339
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: blow over.

340
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,679
Speaker 2: You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a

341
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 2: short break.

342
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,640
Speaker 3: Is about that moment actually that you brought up Glory

343
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 3: about when he's asked us sort of imagine his kids

344
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,920
Speaker 3: numbing themselves with certain things like drugs or alcohol. I'm

345
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 3: going to play that clip for us just we haven't

346
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,080
Speaker 3: so just to set this clip up. Also, this is

347
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,400
Speaker 3: at the end of the session.

348
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,480
Speaker 1: Can I ask you, Jake, if we flashed forward several decades,

349
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 1: Isabella and Dean are really struggling in their lives. They're

350
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 1: struggling with how they feel about themselves. They're struggling and

351
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:38,200
Speaker 1: their friendships and they're romantic relationships. They may be numbing

352
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,280
Speaker 1: themselves with certain things like drugs or alcohol. Maybe they

353
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 1: are able to tell you you heard us constantly when

354
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,320
Speaker 1: we were growing up, how would you feel about your

355
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:59,120
Speaker 1: life choices several decades on that were the case horrible?

356
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 3: Listening to that, I guess I'm sort of wondering what

357
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,199
Speaker 3: we're hoping would happen from saying that, from posing that

358
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,960
Speaker 3: scenario to him, because it's a specific kind of like

359
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:14,920
Speaker 3: really evocative image. I felt myself feeling in Jake's shoes, thinking, oh, man,

360
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,720
Speaker 3: like I would just feel so devastated, so ashamed, and

361
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:18,520
Speaker 3: he says horrible.

362
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 1: I do think that was a powerful moment because we

363
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 1: finally got something from him where you could kind of

364
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 1: hear it in his voice. Also, you have to remember

365
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: we can see the people and so you're just hearing it,

366
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 1: but we saw him, so there was something that happened

367
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: in his face that was different. And that was why

368
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 1: we decided with the homework to really bring that into

369
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,679
Speaker 1: the present for him and have that letter be written

370
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 1: here we are as adult's dad, and here's what it

371
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 1: was like growing up with the constant yelling in the

372
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,520
Speaker 1: air all the time, and the unpredictability and the explosiveness.

373
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: We thought that if we brought that into the present

374
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: for him, like here are your kids coming to you

375
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,919
Speaker 1: now as adults, telling you, this is what the effect

376
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: of this behavior has been on us and our lives,

377
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 1: we felt like we had opened a little crack and

378
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: a door there. But that wasn't the thing that worked

379
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 1: for him in the homework. He went back into his compartmentalization.

380
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 1: The interesting thing about the interventions is they might not

381
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 1: do that intervention, but it might help them to do

382
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: a different one that we also suggested that they do,

383
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 1: or even one that they come up with on their own.

384
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: We had suggested that they read some articles about the

385
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: effect of ronic yelling on your kids, and they ended

386
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,159
Speaker 1: up finding some thing on the internet, a program of

387
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,880
Speaker 1: stop yelling at your kids for a week type of thing.

388
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: And so it could be that that moment opened him

389
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 1: up enough to go and try that. You just don't

390
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 1: know exactly where it's going to land and how it's

391
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 1: going to land, but I think that moment was very

392
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:54,959
Speaker 1: important to get to.

393
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 2: I think that moment was very important to get to

394
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 2: as well. Was an opening there, But it quickly closed

395
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 2: up again. In ongoing therapy, you could keep pushing on

396
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 2: that moment and on that opening until it remained open.

397
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,400
Speaker 2: But we didn't have him for ongoing therapy. We only

398
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 2: had him for the one session. I was actually a

399
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 2: little dismayed that he decided to go with the YouTube

400
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 2: challenge or whatever that was five days without screaming at

401
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 2: your kid, because it's more of the cork. It's more

402
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 2: of the like, if I can hold it in for

403
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,640
Speaker 2: five days, it doesn't mean anything. If you can hold

404
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 2: it in for five days unless you understand what's going

405
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 2: on with you and you can find ways to manage

406
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 2: that behavior. It's like you can go on a crash

407
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: diet for five days, it doesn't mean you can maintain it.

408
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 2: And so for me, it was a little more of

409
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: the same of him looking for an easier solution in

410
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,120
Speaker 2: which he just has to strain harder, rather than one

411
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 2: that goes deeper for him that he really has to

412
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 2: look at his emotions and how those are impacting him.

413
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: And I just want to go back to that earlier

414
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: comment I made about I wish that we had worked

415
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,239
Speaker 1: a little bit more with Becca, because I think that

416
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: if we had given it the assignment to both of them,

417
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: meaning and now your kids are coming to you, Becca

418
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 1: and saying, why didn't you protect us? This is the

419
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: effect that this has had on our lives, and you

420
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 1: kept us in this environment. And I think that that

421
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: might have helped pierce her shield of denial a little

422
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 1: bit more too. It's always easy, I think, to focus

423
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 1: on the person who's doing the thing that is problematic,

424
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 1: and I think as therapist, the thing that we want

425
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: to remember is that there's a system here. There's a

426
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: whole family system going on. And we never really explored

427
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 1: Becca's psychology. Clearly, she was very much wanting to be

428
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 1: with him, and she was very afraid of not being

429
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 1: with him. She really kept saying I love him so much,

430
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: I really love him. So we didn't explore enough let's

431
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: understand what your reluctance is to protect your children, because

432
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: it might mean you will lose this kind of relationship

433
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: with Jake. We didn't step back for a minute and

434
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: say we aren't getting where we want to get with him.

435
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 1: And also, she's this family system and what's going on there,

436
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 1: and can we push her as hard as we're pushing him,

437
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 1: because she's more malleable.

438
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 2: I love that idea of giving her the commensurate exercise,

439
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 2: because I think that would have been actually quite powerful

440
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: for her to do. One of the things that we

441
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 2: often do with couples that we didn't do here and

442
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 2: might have gotten some traction with, is that when we

443
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: have a member of the couple that's not hearing something,

444
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 2: we say it to the other person. So we say

445
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 2: to Becker, so what is it like for you when

446
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: you hear how resistant Jake is to the idea of

447
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 2: his yelling causing such damage to the kids, and you

448
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: hear him responding in a very kind of close and

449
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 2: monosyllabic way to these ideas. What does that do for

450
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 2: you when you hear that level of resistance, when you're

451
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 2: so worried about the damage she's doing. You cross to

452
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 2: the other person and you're saying things about Jake, but

453
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: to Becker, because that allows him to hear it more

454
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 2: and it's being said to him, he can get defensive

455
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: and sometimes he might hear that beta when it's being

456
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 2: said about him to Becca.

457
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, one thought I had it. I don't know what

458
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 3: you guys will make of this, but Jake almost became

459
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 3: his daughter in the session, and he even laughed, which

460
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 3: Laurie pointed out in this really beautiful moment that he's

461
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 3: even laughing like her because he lacks the ability to

462
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 3: understand why he's doing what he's doing, and that's his

463
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 3: response to that.

464
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: What I was saying about the laughter was that when

465
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: Isabella became uncomfortable, she would laugh, and that would enrage him.

466
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 1: But what was happening was she was having a lot

467
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 1: of feelings. I was saying that when he yells at

468
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: her and she laughs, it's not because she thinks it's funny,

469
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: it's because she's profoundly uncomfortable, and that's a reaction to that.

470
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: And so then when we were saying things that were

471
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: profoundly uncomfortable to Jake, he would laugh as well. When

472
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: people get uncomfortable, they have these reactions that might appear

473
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: to be one thing, but they're actually extreme discomfort. And

474
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: in fact, Isabella, because probably she had Becca there, who

475
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: was trying to emphasize feelings, would talk about her feelings

476
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: with Becca, so it's almost like she had more of

477
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: a language for her feelings than Jake did. And yet

478
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: Becca was spending so much time trying to problem solve

479
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: on the side of let me make up for the

480
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: deficiencies on the feelings part and help Isabella developed that vocabulary,

481
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: but she wasn't willing to really go there with Jake.

482
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: And that is my biggest regret of this session is

483
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: that we didn't go there with Becca to really explore

484
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: why are you not going there with Jake? Why are

485
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: you not setting boundaries? As Guy said, what is your

486
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: line in the sand? What is keeping you from facing

487
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: what is not happening in this marriage? Because as you

488
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: said Ben at the beginning, this is also a marital issue.

489
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: It's not just an issue about what's happening with the children,

490
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: it's what's happening with this couple. Didn't get enough into

491
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: the couple.

492
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 2: One regret I have is that I actually was more

493
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: hopeful about Jake being able to do the homework than

494
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: he was able to actually do. And had I known

495
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: that that he would really struggle with the homework, especially

496
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: with the emotive parts of it that are so important.

497
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: There are options in couple's therapy to come with more force,

498
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: as it were, and in this case, it might have

499
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 2: been to say to Becker, what if Jake can't change,

500
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 2: paint me a picture of what your life looks like

501
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: as a single parent with these two kids, and how

502
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 2: you'll manage and how you'll deal with Jake. You paint

503
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: a picture of what a separation might look like, and

504
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: that can be a way to really bring home to

505
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: Jake and to her. These are the stakes, this is

506
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 2: what we're talking about. Let's actually go and imagine that,

507
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: because I think Becker avoids imagining that it's too upsetting,

508
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: and that's why she keeps folding and not maintaining the

509
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: boundary giving him.

510
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 3: One thing I'm thinking about is that a couple of

511
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: the interventions, they sound like they're sort of negative consequences

512
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: for Jake. Jake, do you see how badly things could

513
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 3: turn out? And I wonder also, what would it also

514
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 3: look like to incentivize Jake. We didn't really find out.

515
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: I'd be curious to hear what kind of relationship would

516
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 3: Jake think would be ideal with his daughter with Becca

517
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: and vice versa with Becca as well. I wonder if

518
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: Jake but he could could go in that direction.

519
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: I think incentivizing people is really important, and I do

520
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: think that we were so focused on the negative consequences

521
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: that he might have felt shame. He might have felt like,

522
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: I can't even think about this because it's too painful.

523
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: He might have felt like we were being hard on him,

524
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,719
Speaker 1: or you know, we were sort of the parents who

525
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: were saying, here's your consequence for this behavior. I'm trying

526
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: to imagine what would have happened. I think that he

527
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: would have said, well, we're moving with the job and

528
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: we're going to be closer to family, and it'll be

529
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: better because we won't have as much pressure. And I

530
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: think that he would have just externalized the whole thing

531
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: as he was doing and not said. And I have

532
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: an issue here with how do I access my emotions?

533
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: How do I manage them? How do I ask for

534
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: things that I want and need? How do I work

535
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: through some of this grief and loss? How do I

536
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: embrace this family that I do love and that I

537
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 1: do want to be a part of. How do I

538
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: deal with a part of me that still wants to

539
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: be the child and the part of me that also

540
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 1: wants to grow up and be an adult. And when

541
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: they're in conflict, what do I do? And how do

542
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: I hide out? All those things were going on for him,

543
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: and so, yes, incentivizing certainly might have been helpful.

544
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: It's cool to hear you reflect also on what his

545
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: state of mind was and what he might have been

546
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: experiencing during that. I think as a listener, I often

547
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 3: found myself blaming him in certain ways, and so it's

548
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 3: helpful to also remember to sort of still have empathy

549
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: and kind of be able to imagine what's on for him.

550
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I should say too this thing about kids

551
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: and maybe counter transference, which for our listeners who don't know,

552
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: counter transparence is the feelings that come up in us

553
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: when the person that we're talking to in therapy says

554
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: something that we have a reaction to that is from

555
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: our own history, from our own past. And I think

556
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: that it's one thing when therapy clients come in and

557
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: they tell us about something that happened in their own

558
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: childhoods that their own parents did, that we find upsetting

559
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: because we feel like I'm here to help you now

560
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: as an adult, and so they're safe with us in

561
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: that room. But these children were out in the world.

562
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: So when you hear that the person sitting across from

563
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: you is hurting children who are there out in the

564
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: world and it's happening right now. I think that as therapists,

565
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: we often will have a reaction to that that is

566
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: different from hearing about something that happened to our clients

567
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: in the past.

568
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 3: When you have a session like this where maybe it

569
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 3: didn't go exactly where you wanted it to go, or

570
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: you felt them presh, what do you do with that

571
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: disappointment as a therapist after it's over. Do you find

572
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 3: yourself blaming yourself, blaming the client? What kind of stuff

573
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: comes up for you and how do you deal with

574
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: it well?

575
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 2: I think, like any experience of something professionally that doesn't

576
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 2: go well or well enough for you, then there's due

577
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: diligence to be done because there's information there and there's

578
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: learning to be had there. So as we're sitting here

579
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: reflecting on the session, we can identify all things that

580
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: we might have done differently or directions that we might

581
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: have explored in our practices. If something goes poorly, we

582
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: really have to look at two things. A what happened

583
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: there that it went poorly, and what happened within us

584
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: that we weren't able to bring our usual skill set

585
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: to bear. Was something touched that was personal and that's

586
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: the counter transference that Laurie was referring to it's something

587
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: that triggered in us that interfered with our thinking or

588
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: our ability to have a more objective position, or can

589
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: we identify different directions that we would have taken, and

590
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: then can we eomock those as things to keep in mind?

591
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: And in fact, what we're doing right now is what

592
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: we do as therapists. Most of us have weekly meetings

593
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: with other therapists where we go over the cases from

594
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: the week these were therapy clients. I would go to

595
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: my consultation group and I would say, here's what happened

596
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: in this session, and we would talk about it the

597
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: way we're talking about it right now. And then I

598
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: would go back the next week and I would say, hey, Beca,

599
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: and we would start there. So we have that opportunity

600
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: in a way that we don't hear. But I also

601
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: think what Guy said is so true that we have

602
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: these three opportunities even with this one session to reach people.

603
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: And then also since we do these follow ups a

604
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: year later from our guests from the season before, I'll

605
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: be curious to hear where this couple is a year

606
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: from now. This is one that I'm really looking forward

607
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: to hearing. What has happened in that year.

608
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: Okay, great. Thank you both so much for just being

609
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 3: so honest and reflective. It's both fun as a listener

610
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: and really helpful as a darpist in training.

611
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: You're very welcome.

612
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: Well. Thank you Ben for asking all these questions and

613
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: helping us to reflect on that session with Beckend Jake.

614
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

615
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

616
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

617
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

618
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: help people to find the show. Do you want to

619
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: be on Season four of Dear Therapists?

620
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: Email us at Lauri and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

621
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

622
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John

623
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

624
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast

625
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: fairy Godmother katiek. We can't wait to see you at

626
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: our next session. Theo Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio,

627
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: Fish Food