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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information,

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Speaker 1: visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

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Speaker 1: And while I hope you love listening to and learning

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Speaker 1: from the podcast, it is not meant to be a

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Speaker 1: substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me for session sixty of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts. The conversation I'm bringing

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Speaker 1: to you today is one that is often very difficult

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Speaker 1: to have in our community, but so very necessary to

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Speaker 1: They were going to be talking about colorism and texturism

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Speaker 1: and how they impact our mental health. But this conversation

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Dr Donna Orio Wo. Doctor Donna is

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Speaker 1: an international speaker, sex and relationship educator, and therapists located

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Speaker 1: in the Washington, D C. Metro area. She went to

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Speaker 1: undergrad at the Morgan State University, earning her bachelors in

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Speaker 1: psychology before moving to Widener University, where she earned her

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Speaker 1: pH d, M s W and m e d. In

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Speaker 1: Human Sexuality, social work, and education, respectively. She is the

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Speaker 1: owner and lead therapist of a nod Right, whose mission

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Speaker 1: it is to help others reclaim their sexuality, identity, and

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Speaker 1: self love by being their most wise, free, and authentic selves.

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Speaker 1: In addressing intersectionality, culture, and race in both educational and

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Speaker 1: therapeutic settings with a focus on developing healthy Black female sexuality,

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Speaker 1: Dr Donna and I discussed the definitions of colorism and texturism,

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Speaker 1: ideas about how to have more effective conversations about these topics,

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Speaker 1: how these issues impact our mental health as black women,

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Speaker 1: and strategies for working through some of these concerns. If

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Speaker 1: you hear something that you think others should know, be

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Speaker 1: sure to share it on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: tb G. In session, here's our conversation. Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us today, Donna, thank you for having me so.

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited you were able to join us for

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Speaker 1: the podcast today because I think the topics will be

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Speaker 1: discussing today are very important for us as black women

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Speaker 1: to continue having conversations about um things related to both

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Speaker 1: skin color and hair texture. So can you talk to

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about how issues related to colorism

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Speaker 1: and texturism impact black women's health or mental health. Funnily enough,

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Speaker 1: that actually impacts both the mental health and the physical

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Speaker 1: health um black women. You know, like the stories are

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Speaker 1: out and abound that you know, black women, we don't

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Speaker 1: exercise the fear of you know, sweating out oye hair

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Speaker 1: and all that other stuff. But that mental health piece

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Speaker 1: is it really impacts self esteem, sexual self esteem, and

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Speaker 1: really just general self efficacy. So just the whole self

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Speaker 1: esteem spectrum. It impacts our relationships and it repacts it

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Speaker 1: impacts them on so many different levels. And as I

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Speaker 1: know that a lot of people say, oh, well, you

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Speaker 1: know it's only hair, but hair and skin definitely have

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Speaker 1: a huge impact. It even impacts us financially. You know,

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Speaker 1: they say the lighter you are with the you know,

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Speaker 1: better hair, so to speak, that you're more likely to

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Speaker 1: get chosen for areas jobs and be paid more because

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Speaker 1: they say that white people feel a little bit more

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Speaker 1: comfortable with someone who is lighter skinned with better hair

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Speaker 1: than someone that is darker skinned with you know, my

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Speaker 1: type of kinky hair. Yeah, I mean, and we continue

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Speaker 1: to see like these studies and things come out. They

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Speaker 1: talk about like the differences in terms of like paygrades

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Speaker 1: and privileges that people have depending on their skin color

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Speaker 1: or hair texture. Yeah, and you know as a sex

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Speaker 1: and relationship therapist here in the Washington, d C. Area,

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Speaker 1: that those impacts on relationships, That's what I end up

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Speaker 1: saying the most. So you're more likely to get in

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Speaker 1: and stay in an unhealthy relationship when you have lower

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Speaker 1: esteem about yourself. You're willing to settle for less, and

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Speaker 1: you ignore the warning signs of a bad relationship. And

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Speaker 1: it hurts harder when you get out of those relationships

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Speaker 1: because you know here you are already maybe feeling at

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Speaker 1: maybe a five out of your self esteem. You get

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Speaker 1: into this relationship where they basically say you're lucky to

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Speaker 1: have them, and so you continue to settle for basic

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Speaker 1: humanity things as opposed to a partner who is your

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Speaker 1: equal and willing to go above and beyond. So you

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Speaker 1: you're in this relationship and when they say, oh no,

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Speaker 1: I'm done, it hurts more because it's like, oh, man,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't worth anything before and the person that saw

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Speaker 1: some worth in me left me, so I must be

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Speaker 1: worth less than what I thought, mm hmmm, So that's

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Speaker 1: that's really kind of what you're seeing in your practice

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Speaker 1: in relation to maybe some of them, like colorism stuff

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Speaker 1: is like the impact that it has had on relationships. Yes,

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Speaker 1: definitely a relationship with self, relationship with family and friends,

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Speaker 1: and especially romantic relationships. Those are the three major ones

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Speaker 1: that I end up um having more conversations about. Mm hmm. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And what do you think we can do Donna as

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Speaker 1: a community to begin or continue to change the conversation

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Speaker 1: around um like light skin and pretty hair so to speak,

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Speaker 1: being the only things that are deemed attractive. What you're

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Speaker 1: what you said is so true. We definitely started UM.

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Speaker 1: So he'sa raised and secure shows us a different spectrum

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Speaker 1: of beauty. The black Panther, of course, showed a completely

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Speaker 1: different spectrum of beauty. Um. But some of that is

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Speaker 1: what we are going to do for ourselves as individuals

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Speaker 1: as well as how we're going to relate to one another.

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Speaker 1: So number one, you know, like this judgment of someone's

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Speaker 1: character based on their hair has got to stop, because

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Speaker 1: what was often is happening is someone is seeing someone

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Speaker 1: with light skin and this you know, the silkier hair,

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Speaker 1: and they're saying, oh, well, they're stuck up. I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: you don't know them, you haven't had a conversation with them.

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Speaker 1: You're already assuming a character trait based on what you see.

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Speaker 1: Just like there's an assumption that if you are dark

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Speaker 1: skinned with kinky hair that somehow you are lazy and

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Speaker 1: not willing to take pride in your appearance. So that

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Speaker 1: judgment of character based on our hair and our skin tone,

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Speaker 1: that's part of what needs to sort of stop. We

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Speaker 1: need to, you know, take stock of why we are

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Speaker 1: feeling and thinking this way and figure out whether or

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Speaker 1: not this thought even originated with us, because what I'm

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Speaker 1: finding is that for most people is not what they

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Speaker 1: think first, it's what someone else thought that they have

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Speaker 1: adapted as their own. M m m mmm. And where

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Speaker 1: are those messages primarily coming from? Oh, it's this is

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Speaker 1: so pervasive in American society that I'm not even sure.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's one of those like we'll started fresh

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Speaker 1: the chicken or the eggs sort of conversations. So you know,

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Speaker 1: of course we have to talk about slavery, and to

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Speaker 1: deny slaveries impact on texturism and colorism is to deny

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Speaker 1: a huge part of black culture here in America. So

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Speaker 1: they already were grading us based on our skin tone

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Speaker 1: and our hair texture. Then so those that were closer

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Speaker 1: and looks to them, you know, through rape and all

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Speaker 1: this all that other stuff that was going on, they

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, well, I like this child. I'll take

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Speaker 1: better care of this child. So lighter skin slaves with

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Speaker 1: good hair got better privileges. Now that's not to say

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Speaker 1: that it didn't suck all around, because it did. It's

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Speaker 1: still slavery, but more likely to be freed, more likely

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Speaker 1: to be taught to read and write, and more likely

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Speaker 1: to have other privileges like oh, you get the bathe

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Speaker 1: more often, you get to wash your hair, your hair

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Speaker 1: more often, like yeah you. But so, like, we have

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Speaker 1: to understand the impact that slavery has had. And I

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Speaker 1: know that a lot of people want to say, but

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Speaker 1: slavery was so long ago, And to that, I say,

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Speaker 1: let's go back to what they already said in The

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Speaker 1: Lion King when Rafiki hit symbol on the head, he said,

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Speaker 1: it's in the past, but it's still hurt. And I

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Speaker 1: want us to remember that just because something happened in

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Speaker 1: the past doesn't mean it doesn't still hurt. That definitely

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Speaker 1: is a great example of good ways to kind of illustrate,

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Speaker 1: you know, things from the past do still impact us

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Speaker 1: in lots of different ways. And something else I thought

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Speaker 1: about downing while you were talking, um, it also seems

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Speaker 1: like there is this tension around you know, like in

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Speaker 1: many ways, it definitely does feel like hair is political.

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Speaker 1: But I think for a lot of people, it's just hair, right,

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Speaker 1: like you know, And so it feels like there is

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Speaker 1: a lot kind of place upon our hair about whether

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Speaker 1: we decide to wear it natural or straight, or do

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Speaker 1: we want to wear a perm or a weave or

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Speaker 1: a wig. And I think a lot of people just

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Speaker 1: enjoy like doing different things, like it's just like an

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Speaker 1: accessory or just something fun to do different. But there

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Speaker 1: are all these judgments and like assumptions made based on

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Speaker 1: how a black woman decides to wear her hair. That

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Speaker 1: is so true. And what's what's funny about that is

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Speaker 1: that because some people have politicized our hair, it is

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Speaker 1: still going to be political. It is still going to

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Speaker 1: be an act of radicalism to wear your hair naturally,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and I know it doesn't make any sense,

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Speaker 1: but the idea, I mean, the idea that the way

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Speaker 1: you that you are going to wear your hair, the

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Speaker 1: way it grows out of your head as being radical

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Speaker 1: seems completely ridiculous. But the beauty standard and norm has

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Speaker 1: been blue eyes like skin, or white skin with long

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Speaker 1: blonde hair. So every single deviation you are from that,

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Speaker 1: you are considered to be someone that is less beautiful

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Speaker 1: in society standards and eurocentric beauty ideal stand dirds. So

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Speaker 1: if you are dark skin with kinky hair, brown eyes, shapely,

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Speaker 1: then you are are you are very several standard deviations

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Speaker 1: are away from what they have already said is beautiful.

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Speaker 1: So when you when someone comes up to you and

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Speaker 1: they're like, hey, you're pretty, it's it's almost like an

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Speaker 1: accusation and a statement made in surprise that how could

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Speaker 1: you this dark skinned person with this type of hair

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Speaker 1: be considered beautiful. UM. One example that I often use

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Speaker 1: in UM what I'm doing talks or conferences is Lupeta

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Speaker 1: because people look at her and they're like, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand how she you're You know, it turns into that

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Speaker 1: you're pretty to be dark skinned, and it's because you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to be seen as some type of an anomaly

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Speaker 1: that you cannot have both dark skin and nappy hair

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Speaker 1: and be pretty. So a dark skinned woman, for example,

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Speaker 1: with good hair, she would be seen as someone that

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Speaker 1: has her hair has saved her from the darkness of

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Speaker 1: her skin. A light skinned woman with kinkier hair, her

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Speaker 1: light skin has saved her from her nappier hair. And

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Speaker 1: then of course the epitome that you can reach for

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Speaker 1: in blackness would be to be light skinned with good hair.

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Speaker 1: And we sort of have created this hierarchy that we've

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Speaker 1: maintained that is still based on Eurocentric standards, which really

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Speaker 1: doesn't serve anybody. Everybody's feelings get hurt on that standard.

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Speaker 1: All in the name of the cis gender hetero normative

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Speaker 1: male gaze, because that's what we're when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the male gate. And I say male gaze, and I

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Speaker 1: know that everyone is not straight. I'm not saying that.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying that most corporations, large and small, are ran

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Speaker 1: by white men, and they have dictated what the standard

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Speaker 1: of beauty is and at the same time dictate the

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Speaker 1: dress code and the way that they how you're going

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Speaker 1: to look for their brand. So now it's almost become

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Speaker 1: a requirement to have a certain type of hair and

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Speaker 1: to present yourself in a certain way just so that

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Speaker 1: you can have a job. Yeah, Donna, And it does

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Speaker 1: definitely feel like there is a lot to unpack there,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it does feel like there have has

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Speaker 1: been a lot of movement, especially towards like younger children,

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Speaker 1: about making sure that they are a variety of like

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Speaker 1: shapes and colors and hair textures and children's books and dolls,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it does feel like that they were

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Speaker 1: doing more in terms of that, though, I think we

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Speaker 1: could definitely be doing a lot more, um. But I'm wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, for clients that you see, you know, probably

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Speaker 1: eighteen and older, like what kinds of strategies are you

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Speaker 1: using with them to help them unpack some of this

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Speaker 1: and to really heal some of the trauma that has

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Speaker 1: likely um come about related to either hair texture or

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Speaker 1: skin color. I can talk about that all day, but

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Speaker 1: where I end up starting number one is some people

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Speaker 1: won't even acknowledge that that is the problem. So first,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I'm I'm trying to unpack about why

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Speaker 1: they're there, and they don't want to bring it up

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Speaker 1: in that way because they don't want to seem like

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Speaker 1: they're hating on themselves, but they're hating on themselves. So

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Speaker 1: I try to, number one, help them to even see

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Speaker 1: that this is an issue that they have been having

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Speaker 1: and that they like to talk around that issue. So

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Speaker 1: what I like to do is really get people from

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Speaker 1: a place that talking around it to talking about it

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Speaker 1: specifically and being real about it and knowing and also

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Speaker 1: talking about the origins of where this came from, because unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: a lot of us got these hurts from our parents,

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Speaker 1: from our mothers, from our grandmothers, and we don't want

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Speaker 1: to talk badly about them because they did so much

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Speaker 1: for us, which and and you know, I'm not denying

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Speaker 1: what they have done for us or the great things

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Speaker 1: that they have instilled within us, but that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that we cannot also acknowledge the bad with the good.

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Speaker 1: So being able to sort of separate the things that

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Speaker 1: we didn't like from the things that we did like

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Speaker 1: about growing up and how those messages continue to show

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Speaker 1: themselves in our everyday life, So trying to make it,

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Speaker 1: trying to make sure that we are bringing that up

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Speaker 1: and that we're actually talking about that, and really also

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Speaker 1: examining the difference between how they think about themselves and

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Speaker 1: how they think other people think about them, sort of

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Speaker 1: getting to that intrinsic versus extrinsic value and you know,

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Speaker 1: getting those baseline assessments. I need to understand where they

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Speaker 1: are and where they're trying to go and their reasoning

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Speaker 1: for getting there. It also seems like this would be

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Speaker 1: like a great conversation. And I don't know if you've

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Speaker 1: in this, Donna like had like either an outreach presentation

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Speaker 1: where there was an opportunity for like group discussion or

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Speaker 1: just like a therapy group or some kind of like

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Speaker 1: group related to these kinds of issues. I think would

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Speaker 1: like provide a lot of different information and allow people

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Speaker 1: to have exchanges with one another that could be really healthy. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I was recently invited to the University of California, Riverside,

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Speaker 1: and that was one of the talks that I gave.

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Speaker 1: We were exploring sexuality through hair texture and colorism, and

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Speaker 1: I mean it was a great talk. It was. I

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Speaker 1: was there early February or so, and just being able

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Speaker 1: to have that conversation with you know, those students there.

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Speaker 1: They they didn't even think about some of the things

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Speaker 1: that I was saying and the way that I was saying.

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Speaker 1: They was just like Oh wow. I never thought about

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Speaker 1: it in this way, and I never thought about how

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Speaker 1: how deeply ingrained all these things go, and how I

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Speaker 1: have to do a lot more work on my own

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Speaker 1: self as well as making sure I'm uplifting my friends

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Speaker 1: to make sure that we can get out of this,

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Speaker 1: because that's what we are saying. We're definitely saying that

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Speaker 1: people are wanting to get out of it and are

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Speaker 1: actively moving in that direction, which is wonderful. Um. You

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Speaker 1: know the people that are coming up now, we're you know,

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Speaker 1: we're having kids, and we're telling our children, you should

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Speaker 1: love yourself as you are. You're beautiful as you are.

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Speaker 1: And then that's when people are sort of taking stock

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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, I'm going to tell my kids

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Speaker 1: that they should love themselves as they are. But here

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Speaker 1: I am doing X, Y and Z, So do I

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Speaker 1: love myself as I am? And that's sort of what's

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Speaker 1: bringing up those conversations a little bit more, getting people

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Speaker 1: to dig deeper. Yeah, I mean, because you know what

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Speaker 1: you said. I think a lot of this does operate

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Speaker 1: very subconsciously, right, Like we just sometimes don't even realize

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Speaker 1: like how many images and how media in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways, Um, just continue to perpetuate this idea that

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Speaker 1: this is what is acceptable so exactly, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people will say all day it's a preference, just

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Speaker 1: like is it your preference or preference that has been

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Speaker 1: given to you that you have now adapted? Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it is interesting too to think about, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: like how maybe the process of like having a child

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Speaker 1: of your own that has like some kind of issues

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Speaker 1: or feelings about their hair or skin color. How that

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Speaker 1: then also forces you to have to do some work

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Speaker 1: sometimes because you don't realize, like how you may be

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Speaker 1: passing on some of those maybe negative ideas or thoughts

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Speaker 1: related to skin color and hair to your children. And

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Speaker 1: it's so easy to do it, especially when you're not

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Speaker 1: really actively examining it in that way. And that's the

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Speaker 1: thing that I'm most excited about. I'm excited that I'm

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Speaker 1: getting these clients who are They're coming to me and

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Speaker 1: they're saying, I think I have, you know, self esteem issues,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just like, well, leus, let's talk about that.

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Speaker 1: Let's work on those things, and let's not trivialize the

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Speaker 1: importance of hair and black community. It's not called our

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Speaker 1: crowning glory for nothing. M Yeah, I mean, Dada, you

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Speaker 1: definitely are bringing on bringing in all of these different

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Speaker 1: elements that are such an important part of the conversation

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Speaker 1: but that we don't typically think about together. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to think about feelings. It brings up, it

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Speaker 1: brings up ugly past because when I did um my dissertation,

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Speaker 1: I specifically studied natural textured hair and black women and

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Speaker 1: how it impacts their sexuality and so many things that

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Speaker 1: came up in the results. I mean, we're even talking

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Speaker 1: about people admitting to sort of scratching up their skin,

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Speaker 1: you know, getting ashy so that they could feel whider,

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Speaker 1: wearing t shirts on their hair when they were younger

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Speaker 1: so they could pretend they had long hair, and even

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Speaker 1: what you know, like some people are talking about it

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Speaker 1: now and they're saying, oh, is the weeds and wig

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Speaker 1: movement um also just another way of people trying to

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Speaker 1: gain the length so that they can have some level

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Speaker 1: of acceptance with their hair texture. And you know that's

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Speaker 1: a whole different kind of worms. But you know, just

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Speaker 1: trying to examine all these various portions of it, because

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Speaker 1: just because you straighten your hair doesn't mean you have

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Speaker 1: self hate or that you don't love your black, your

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Speaker 1: black self or your black nest, because some people do

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Speaker 1: get beyond. And part of what I do in session

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Speaker 1: and in group settings is trying to get people to

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Speaker 1: examine where they actually are by sort of going through

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Speaker 1: this UM. I forgot what I call it, like the

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Speaker 1: hair identity development model. UM created that bad boy from

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Speaker 1: a dissertation, but sort of you. I use that as

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Speaker 1: a way to help people understand where they are with

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Speaker 1: their relationship that they have to their hair, and how

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Speaker 1: that relationship impacts their sexuality, their self view, and how

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Speaker 1: they interact with people overall. Because you know that hair envy,

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Speaker 1: that texture envy, the skin tone envy, and feeling some

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Speaker 1: type of way about someone that you don't know. Usually

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Speaker 1: it's coming from a place of what you already have

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Speaker 1: going on with you. It can't be about somebody else

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Speaker 1: if you don't know them. But we're always bringing forth

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Speaker 1: our own baggage. So I said it once before, So

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Speaker 1: it's people have. Everyone has baggage, is whether or not

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Speaker 1: they have a steamer trunk or they have a small purse.

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Speaker 1: So what tips might you have for listeners who might

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Speaker 1: be struggling with some of these issues? Any like places

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Speaker 1: for them to start. I would say first the first

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Speaker 1: step is always to me acknowledgement, stop holding onto that

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Speaker 1: pain and to your silence. It's way past time to

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Speaker 1: speak out. Talk to your mother, your grandmother, family, your

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Speaker 1: romant to partner, talk to the people that are in

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Speaker 1: your life that you love but have hurt you in

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Speaker 1: some way, shape or form. And also that means you

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Speaker 1: have to talk to yourself. You have to acknowledge the

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Speaker 1: way you also hurt you. And just having that first

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Speaker 1: step of acknowledgement is I mean really it does wonders

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Speaker 1: in and of itself, acknowledgement and then thinking of your

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Speaker 1: what next, what do I want to do next? How

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Speaker 1: do I want to proceed with this? And of course

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Speaker 1: making sure that we're not trivializing it, that we're not

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Speaker 1: saying that you know, hair, hair texture, and skin tone

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Speaker 1: are frivolous, because they're not. Just like we wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: that racism is frivolous, we should not be saying that

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Speaker 1: colorism and texturism, which are derivatives of racism, are frivolous.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense to say that. So as

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Speaker 1: a community, we need to be able to be you're

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Speaker 1: willing to have this conversation, and that means that I

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Speaker 1: like skin divas have to check themselves and their privilege

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Speaker 1: and listen to our doctor skinned people and vice versa,

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Speaker 1: because everybody is having some level of hurt. It's just

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Speaker 1: that some hurt is more systematic and and sort of

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Speaker 1: follow mimics the way that racism has been mimicked. So

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Speaker 1: it's like, yes, you can hurt a white person's feelings,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that you you reversed racism them.

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Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with colorism and texturism. Just

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Speaker 1: understanding power and the power dynamics and how those things

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Speaker 1: sort of come together. Those are really gonna help with

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Speaker 1: being able to move forward in a positive direction where

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Speaker 1: we can all heal collectively. Yeah, Danna, you really touched

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Speaker 1: on something that I do think is important for us

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit more about, because it does

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Speaker 1: feel like whenever I see these conversations, and of course,

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Speaker 1: like online is not necessarily the best place to maybe

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Speaker 1: have some of these conversations, um, but but it does

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Speaker 1: feel like the conversation frequently like goes off the rails

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Speaker 1: when there is like this whole discussion about colorism and

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Speaker 1: of course, you know, even light skinned black people have

399
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Speaker 1: likely been discriminated against in some ways. But it does

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Speaker 1: feel like there is like this very difficult tension to

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00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: kind of cut through when then you also hear darker

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00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: skin sisters saying, yeah, but maybe that's not the issue

403
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Speaker 1: right now. Yeah. And and the thing is it hasn't

404
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Speaker 1: even stopped coming up. You would think that, like with

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Speaker 1: the coming of black the Black Panther, I like to

406
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Speaker 1: believe that everything great came with the Black Panther, but

407
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Speaker 1: but look at what has already happened. We're already dividing

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Speaker 1: our light skinned brothers and sisters from being a part

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Speaker 1: of Wakanda and saying that they're going to well kinda

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Speaker 1: And that's and that's part of the hurt from that.

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Speaker 1: You know that I hear from our light skinned women,

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Speaker 1: the ones, you know, the light skin with the with

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Speaker 1: the hair texture that is more acceptable. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: seen as not being as black. And then you've got

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Speaker 1: the you know, the darker skin with the kinkier, coilier

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Speaker 1: hair textures, and they're like, oh, well, they're too black.

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Speaker 1: So you have these two complete spectrums and it's just like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be too black, like I want

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Speaker 1: to be black, but I don't want to be too black,

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Speaker 1: And then that sort of keeps coming up and how

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Speaker 1: we're having these conversations and no one, it seems like

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Speaker 1: no one is really willing to put aside their privilege

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Speaker 1: or their hurt in any given moment to acknowledge the

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Speaker 1: privilege and hurt of others. Yeah, and that's it sounds

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Speaker 1: like what it's really about in like really trying to

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Speaker 1: traverse those conversations is you know, being able to hold

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Speaker 1: onto your opain, but also to be able to make

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00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: space for other people into here their pain as well,

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Speaker 1: into realize how you embody some privileges that may have

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Speaker 1: in some ways caused pain for somebody else. Mm hmmm. Yeah.

431
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: And really I do hope that we can get to

432
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: that point because no one is I know that for

433
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: me personally, I know, I'm not trying to discount the

434
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: hurts and pains that you know that light skin and

435
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, with the specific hair texture people have gone through.

436
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: No one is trying to say that you're not black,

437
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: or at least I'm not trying to say that they

438
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: are not black and that they have not gone through

439
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: hurts and pains at the hands of racism. What I

440
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: am saying, though, is that there are levels to this,

441
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,719
Speaker 1: and that when you are not to the top of

442
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: that pyramid as far as you know, this beauty hierarchy,

443
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: it hurts a little bit more, and it hurts a

444
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: little bit differently, and it hurts a little bit deeply.

445
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: That's why the Black Panther mattered to so many people.

446
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: How many brown and dark skinned men did you see

447
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: in that thing? I mean there were so many, and

448
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: you know, all this natural hair, all this stuff being

449
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: shown right there, and they did not they didn't do

450
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: it the same way that they did say no shade,

451
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: no tape. But the Nina Simone story where they chose

452
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: Zoe Saldanna to play Nina Simona and put there basically

453
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: in black face, and usually that's what sort of happens.

454
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: They choose these racially ambiguous black women to represent all

455
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: black women, but at the same time they're hurting the

456
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: people that are darker skinned with the kinkier hair because

457
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: they never see themselves represented. And I just want to

458
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: make sure that we're recognizing that there are levels while

459
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: being able to, you know, hold our pain, but recognize

460
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 1: that someone else still has pain, right, So what are

461
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: some of your favorite resources around some of these topics

462
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: down there? I mean people always want to know, like

463
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: where they can learn more with books and websites and

464
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: things they can check out. Where are some of your

465
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: favorite resources? Oh, I'm books on books on books over here.

466
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: So um, one of my favorite books, um, I feel

467
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: like it gives a beautiful overview is hair Story by

468
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: um this Bird and Tharp's. I think they wrote it

469
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: back in twenties. I mean they have two copies. I

470
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: know they updated it, so I want to say that

471
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: one of Um. Then there's this like anthology so to speak,

472
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: UM called Tender Headed. Um. Mind you I found all

473
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: these bad boys on Amazon. I can't always find what

474
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: I'm looking for in the store. Um. And then uh,

475
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: last name Prince. She wrote The Politics of Black Women's Hair,

476
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: which is also a pretty great book. And of course,

477
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: you know my dissertation is a great place to start

478
00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: as well if you really want to read it. This writing, ever,

479
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: is it somewhere that is accessible, like by a link?

480
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: Do you have a link for it? You know what,

481
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put a link on my website for it

482
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: perfectly to my website, so people would go ahead and

483
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: download and read at they're boring. Leisia Perfect will add

484
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: a link to that in the show nes Then, So

485
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: any um news that you want to share it down

486
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: at any like upcoming events or trainings or talks that

487
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: you have coming up that you want to share with people, Well,

488
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: I will be in North Carolina that's coming May um

489
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: at the ship North Carolina Adolescent Sexuality Conference. Um, that's

490
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: gonna be fun for me. I don't know if it's

491
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: gonna be fun for other people, but just for me,

492
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: it's about people are reaching out now and sort of

493
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: filling up my calendar. So I feel like I'm gonna

494
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: be in a couple of different places, but I'm also

495
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: going to be offering a few things of my own.

496
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: So I definitely have some webinars that I am planning

497
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: to come out with, some NaSTA classes and some him

498
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: deal specifically with hair and skin tone and sort of

499
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: going on that journey of self love. Okay, so do

500
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: you have an email list where people can sign up

501
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: to know when those things come out? Of course? How

502
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: can we how can we find that a nod right

503
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: dot com with your weight five seconds the pop up

504
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: box comes up and says stay in the loop. So too,

505
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: to stay in the loop, and you will be one

506
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: of the first to know when those things come out. Cool.

507
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: Then a N N O, d R I, G H

508
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: T dot com, my first name backwards right dot com?

509
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: Got it? And any social media handles you want to

510
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: share in case people want to connect with you that way,

511
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: A nod right on everything? Okay, not everything. Let me

512
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: let me be more specifically on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

513
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: And I have a periscope and I do not have

514
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: a snapchat or anything like that. Got it? So Twitter, Facebook,

515
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: and Instagram. Yep. Okay, Well, we will include links to

516
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: all of those in the show notes as well. Okay, perfect, Well,

517
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: thank you so much for chatting with us today, Donna.

518
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I love talking about this.

519
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so grateful to Dr Donna for sharing

520
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: her expertise with us. Something that wasn't mentioned in the

521
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: episode is that she's hosting a webinar on June nine

522
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: this coming Saturday, called sex Talk Parent Edition. It will

523
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: be all about how to talk with your kids and

524
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: teens about sex. So if that's something you're interested in,

525
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

526
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash Session sixty to get the

527
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: information about how to register and information about all the

528
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: other resources that she mentioned, And please be sure to

529
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: share your thoughts with us about the episode on social media.

530
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: You can use the hashtag tb G in session, and

531
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: you can also tag our social media accounts. You can

532
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at Therapy for the Number four

533
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: be Girls, and you can find us on Instagram and

534
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: Facebook at Therapy for Black Girls. If you're looking for

535
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: a therapist in your area, make sure to visit the

536
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory.

537
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: And if you want to continue this conversation and join

538
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: the community of other sisters who listen to the podcast,

539
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: join us over in the thrive tribe. You can find

540
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: it at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash tribe.

541
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: There are three questions that you have to answer before entry,

542
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: so please make sure that you answer those. I think

543
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: it's also important for me to make sure that I

544
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: pay my respects to the family of Kate Spade, who

545
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: we lost to suicide yesterday. And of course, whenever there

546
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: is a high profile suicide, there's a lot of discussion

547
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: around suicide, and you know, there's a lot of energy

548
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: around prevention. It feels like for a short time, but

549
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: I do want to make sure that we are continuing

550
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: to have these conversations. So this week for three for Thursday,

551
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: which is a time where I am on both Facebook

552
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: and i G Live um at twelve noon Eastern, we

553
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: will be talking about suicide. So if you are available

554
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: and want to be a part of that conversation, then

555
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: make sure to join me on either Facebook or Instagram

556
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: Live at twelve noon Eastern this coming Thursday so we

557
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: can continue to have some very important conversations. Thank you

558
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: all again so much for joining me this week, and

559
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you

560
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: all real soon. Take good care,