WEBVTT - PREVIEW: Against the Rules Season 2 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:21.796 Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is justin Richmond. I'm really excited 0:00:21.836 --> 0:00:24.516 to tell you that Pushkin's Against the Rules podcast is 0:00:24.556 --> 0:00:28.556 back for its second season. Against the Rules is the 0:00:28.596 --> 0:00:31.356 brainchild of Michael Lewis, the thought of a lot of 0:00:31.396 --> 0:00:33.996 great books, but three of which turn into movies. I'm 0:00:34.036 --> 0:00:37.956 sure you've seen Moneyball, The Big Short, and The blind Side. 0:00:38.556 --> 0:00:42.636 Michael's an incredible storyteller, and his podcast is no different. 0:00:43.396 --> 0:00:46.036 Against the Rules looks at fairness in every aspect of 0:00:46.036 --> 0:00:49.956 American life, and this season, Michael returns with a very 0:00:49.996 --> 0:00:54.156 special series on coaches. They used to be confined to 0:00:54.236 --> 0:00:57.116 just sports, but I'm sure you've noticed now that coaches 0:00:57.156 --> 0:01:02.116 are everywhere. Life coaches, death coaches, writing coaches, business coaches. 0:01:02.716 --> 0:01:04.996 You can hire a coach to improve your executive skills, 0:01:05.196 --> 0:01:09.876 your online dating performance, even your charisma. But coaching has 0:01:09.876 --> 0:01:14.076 also become an odd source of unfairness. Just look around 0:01:14.076 --> 0:01:17.196 and ask yourself who has access to these coaches and 0:01:17.316 --> 0:01:20.996 who doesn't. Stay tuned to hear the first episode of 0:01:20.996 --> 0:01:24.276 Against the Rules right here, and be sure to subscribe 0:01:24.316 --> 0:01:31.036 to hear the rest of this great season. Welcome to 0:01:31.076 --> 0:01:35.836 season two of Against the Rules. I'm Michael Lewis. Before 0:01:35.876 --> 0:01:37.996 we get to where we're going, I want to go 0:01:38.036 --> 0:01:40.676 back for a moment to where we've been a little 0:01:40.716 --> 0:01:46.156 backstory from season one. The story involves a woman named 0:01:46.196 --> 0:01:50.556 Katie Highland. She's in her late thirties, a public school teacher, wife, 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:54.356 mother of two small children. Her entire adult life, she'd 0:01:54.356 --> 0:01:57.196 been made miserable by student loan she'd taken out when 0:01:57.196 --> 0:02:00.236 she was eighteen years old. I don't see any payoff, 0:02:00.516 --> 0:02:03.676 and it just keeps getting harder and harder, and that's 0:02:03.716 --> 0:02:08.676 soul crushing her state of mind. Well, even her children 0:02:08.716 --> 0:02:12.276 could see it wasn't good. It might be actually kind 0:02:12.356 --> 0:02:16.476 of painful for her, because all of this counts with 0:02:16.596 --> 0:02:22.796 a bell and getting something changed to another thing that's 0:02:22.836 --> 0:02:29.116 the same, but changing to it. I love you, feel well, 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:33.476 it does feel kind of painful, right, mommy. Yeah, A 0:02:33.476 --> 0:02:35.476 lot of the paper is yeah there, it's a lot 0:02:35.516 --> 0:02:37.436 of paperwork. It's a lot of and a lot of 0:02:37.476 --> 0:02:43.636 pain for doing it. This killed me to hear, but 0:02:43.796 --> 0:02:49.716 especially this next part. It is very good to be 0:02:50.276 --> 0:02:57.116 thoughtful for everybody. But the person who's the most best 0:02:57.196 --> 0:03:03.396 person on earth is this lady right there, this lady 0:03:03.836 --> 0:03:07.876 Jackson's mom Katie Highland shouldn't have owed anybody a dime. 0:03:08.556 --> 0:03:11.636 That was the point of the story. Katie had qualified 0:03:11.796 --> 0:03:15.356 years ago for a program that Congress created to forgive 0:03:15.396 --> 0:03:18.396 the student loans of public servants, but her student loan 0:03:18.476 --> 0:03:21.036 servicer made money offer only as long as she still 0:03:21.036 --> 0:03:23.476 owed the money, and they had more or less tricked 0:03:23.516 --> 0:03:25.836 her to keep her in debt. I like to try 0:03:25.836 --> 0:03:28.596 to always find the good in people, and when you 0:03:28.676 --> 0:03:32.036 have experiences like my experience, you get discouraged and you 0:03:32.076 --> 0:03:34.596 start to think that people aren't as good as you 0:03:34.836 --> 0:03:43.796 once thought they were. Sometimes you stumble onto a story 0:03:43.836 --> 0:03:46.356 and you can't get it out of your head. Katie 0:03:46.396 --> 0:03:49.676 Hyland had played by the rules, made all her loan payments, 0:03:50.116 --> 0:03:52.716 thrown herself into being a good mother and a great teacher, 0:03:53.036 --> 0:03:55.436 and she'd been abused by the company that was meant 0:03:55.436 --> 0:04:01.436 to help her navigate her finances, and the Consumer Financial 0:04:01.476 --> 0:04:04.796 Protection Bureau, the one financial referee that might have stepped 0:04:04.796 --> 0:04:08.036 in to help her, was doing nothing to help. So 0:04:08.076 --> 0:04:10.996 we decided to help on the website go fund me 0:04:11.796 --> 0:04:18.196 to try to pay off Katie's student loans. When I 0:04:18.236 --> 0:04:19.836 looked at the page, and I think I saw at 0:04:19.876 --> 0:04:23.036 that time that it was like eleven thousand dollars. I 0:04:23.076 --> 0:04:26.196 was completely blown away. I was at my son's baseball game. 0:04:26.236 --> 0:04:29.356 I remember I showed my mom. We were like freaking 0:04:29.396 --> 0:04:34.836 out about it and just reading people's responses and the 0:04:35.036 --> 0:04:39.636 encouraging words, and like where people were from. There were 0:04:39.676 --> 0:04:43.236 people from Ireland, there were people from England. We started 0:04:43.236 --> 0:04:46.796 this campaign two months after the show originally aired, so 0:04:46.996 --> 0:04:49.556 after most people had listened to it. Even then, it 0:04:49.636 --> 0:04:52.556 took you, our listeners less than three months to pay 0:04:52.556 --> 0:04:56.316 off fifty thousand dollars. And I think the last person 0:04:56.356 --> 0:04:59.876 that donated donated like enough to like hit it, and 0:04:59.916 --> 0:05:01.996 it was just so I was like, oh my god, Mom, 0:05:02.276 --> 0:05:05.516 like it happened. We did it, and I can't even 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:07.276 tell it's because you said to me in one email, 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:09.196 like just pay it forward or just do it for 0:05:09.276 --> 0:05:11.836 someone else. And every go fund meat campaign that I see, 0:05:11.876 --> 0:05:14.116 I make it a point to do the same, even 0:05:14.156 --> 0:05:17.556 if it's ten twenty whatever I can do. Now, don't 0:05:17.596 --> 0:05:24.076 you dare go get into debt again. I thought that 0:05:24.076 --> 0:05:26.036 would be the end of the story, but there was 0:05:26.076 --> 0:05:29.156 a lot more to it. Of course, there was more 0:05:29.236 --> 0:05:31.676 to it. I mean, Katie had told us that financial 0:05:31.756 --> 0:05:33.836 stress had caused her to grind her teeth at night, 0:05:33.876 --> 0:05:36.676 and she started losing her teeth. She used to smile 0:05:36.756 --> 0:05:40.676 all the time. Now she avoided smiling, and along the way, 0:05:40.716 --> 0:05:43.956 she'd picked up another debt problem. Already, I'm on a 0:05:43.996 --> 0:05:46.716 payment plan with a dentist like five hundred dollars a week. 0:05:46.756 --> 0:05:49.476 I've spent like thirty thousand dollars. I've lost a bunch 0:05:49.516 --> 0:05:53.076 of teeth through the grinding and all of that. That 0:05:53.116 --> 0:05:55.916 part has been really difficult. So I still have a lot, 0:05:56.236 --> 0:05:58.196 you know, remaining with that. It's still a lot to 0:05:58.196 --> 0:06:00.356 pay off, still a lot of dental work to get done. 0:06:00.716 --> 0:06:03.556 So you do have credit card debt? Yeah, I have 0:06:03.636 --> 0:06:06.476 credit card debt. Any big purchases that I've had to make, 0:06:06.916 --> 0:06:10.076 I've put on credit cards. US. You're a very lucky 0:06:10.116 --> 0:06:13.556 kind of American. You may recognize yourself here. You try 0:06:13.596 --> 0:06:16.756 to do prudent things to save money, like drop the 0:06:16.836 --> 0:06:21.076 vision coverage on your health insurance. Then suddenly your daughter 0:06:21.116 --> 0:06:24.276 needs glasses. That was the kind of thing that Katie 0:06:24.316 --> 0:06:27.076 and her husband did that wound up biting them. They 0:06:27.116 --> 0:06:30.356 now have five credit cards between them, all charging high 0:06:30.436 --> 0:06:34.636 interest rates. Even though their credit score is great. Personally, 0:06:34.676 --> 0:06:36.556 I just want to not be scared to look at 0:06:36.556 --> 0:06:38.516 my bank account. I don't think I've looked at my 0:06:38.516 --> 0:06:42.516 bank account in years, to be honest. I just, yeah, 0:06:42.556 --> 0:06:46.036 that's not a good I know that's not healthy, but 0:06:46.356 --> 0:06:48.556 I don't know why. It's just like terrifies me. I'm 0:06:48.716 --> 0:06:52.956 I'm not sure why. The credit card industry already had 0:06:52.956 --> 0:06:56.156 her by the throat. She was ashamed of it, and 0:06:56.196 --> 0:07:02.796 she had no sense that anyone would help this time. Well, 0:07:02.836 --> 0:07:05.036 so here's my goal. My goal season one, the goal 0:07:05.116 --> 0:07:06.836 was to get rid of your student debt. In season 0:07:06.836 --> 0:07:10.596 two as they restore your smile. So that's what we're 0:07:10.596 --> 0:07:13.156 going to try to do, all right, Okay, thanks Michael. 0:07:17.316 --> 0:07:22.436 I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against the rules. Last 0:07:22.436 --> 0:07:26.396 season was about referees, the attack on our societies. Refs 0:07:26.476 --> 0:07:31.516 is obviously a big problem. This season is about coaches. Yeah, 0:07:31.556 --> 0:07:35.036 what are you doing and their rise in American life. 0:07:35.596 --> 0:07:37.396 You need to stop being a lazy piece of shit 0:07:37.556 --> 0:07:39.316 and work for your picture or I'm going to kick 0:07:39.356 --> 0:07:42.556 your ass. Got it. It wasn't that long ago the 0:07:42.676 --> 0:07:46.156 coaches were confined to sports. Now they're everywhere. We're going 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:48.916 to refocus like we're training a puppy. If we're going 0:07:48.956 --> 0:07:51.476 to train your mind like we train a puppy. They're 0:07:51.476 --> 0:07:53.876 people who call themselves life coaches and other people who 0:07:53.956 --> 0:07:56.836 call themselves death coaches. I am here to guide you 0:07:57.396 --> 0:08:00.756 and making sure you grow as a person. Every big 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:03.876 time corporate boss has an executive coach, but now so 0:08:03.996 --> 0:08:06.316 do new NBA is starting out at Wall Street banks 0:08:06.316 --> 0:08:10.116 and consulting firms. These are super smart people who maybe 0:08:10.236 --> 0:08:13.356 just haven't heard the right strategies. You can hire a 0:08:13.396 --> 0:08:17.596 coach to improve your online dating performance or your charisma. 0:08:17.796 --> 0:08:20.596 It's a saying which is therapy is a path of tears, 0:08:20.636 --> 0:08:24.036 and coaching is the path of laughta and that's all great. 0:08:24.316 --> 0:08:27.676 The coaching is also becoming an odd source of unfairness. 0:08:28.316 --> 0:08:31.316 Just look around and ask yourself who gets good coaching 0:08:31.316 --> 0:08:33.916 and who doesn't. That guy would never have gotten into Yale, 0:08:33.956 --> 0:08:36.276 but this guy who got all this coaching did get 0:08:36.276 --> 0:08:38.556 into Yale. It just seems like anyone who can answer 0:08:38.596 --> 0:08:41.956 these questions has got to be coached. Oh my god, 0:08:41.996 --> 0:08:58.076 we're lost. Fucking team. Money is a great place to 0:08:58.156 --> 0:09:01.756 ask this question about coaching and fairness, But first you 0:09:01.796 --> 0:09:04.556 have to stop thinking of finance as a business and 0:09:04.716 --> 0:09:08.276 start thinking of it as a competitive sport. When eighteen 0:09:08.316 --> 0:09:11.196 year old Katie Hid took out her student loans and 0:09:11.316 --> 0:09:14.596 twenty something year old Katie started using credit cards, she 0:09:14.716 --> 0:09:17.676 was basically walking into an arena alone with a target 0:09:17.716 --> 0:09:20.916 on her back. The giant company should be facing off 0:09:20.956 --> 0:09:23.676 against knew more about her game than she did. That's 0:09:23.676 --> 0:09:26.876 how they made their money from her weaknesses. You can 0:09:27.076 --> 0:09:34.836 always make more money exploiting people's irrationalities then you can 0:09:35.476 --> 0:09:39.316 by fixing them. Richard Taylor, winner of the Nobel Prize 0:09:39.316 --> 0:09:42.596 in Economics. He spent his career trying to understand the 0:09:42.596 --> 0:09:44.996 ways that people don't act in their own self interest. 0:09:45.636 --> 0:09:48.636 And one big thing his work suggests is that ordinary 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:52.556 people need coaching far more than they know. Let's think 0:09:52.596 --> 0:09:57.876 about the people who get the most coaching. Well, professional 0:09:57.876 --> 0:10:02.516 athletes would be one. Take Roger Federer. He's probably got 0:10:02.556 --> 0:10:10.356 ten guys, coaches and physical trainers. So here Roger feder 0:10:10.396 --> 0:10:13.196 one of the greatest athletes in the world, and he 0:10:13.236 --> 0:10:20.036 has ten coaches. Who else? Actors Meryl Streep has a 0:10:20.076 --> 0:10:26.356 director helping her act now God knows, Yeah, she doesn't 0:10:26.396 --> 0:10:29.916 need it, right Brad Pitt, you know, does he really 0:10:29.956 --> 0:10:34.916 need help? But the richest, best performing people in the 0:10:34.956 --> 0:10:40.676 world have the most coaching. And who's coaching the uber 0:10:40.756 --> 0:10:46.956 driver on what hours to drive and when you should 0:10:46.996 --> 0:10:49.876 go to the airport? And if you get a ride 0:10:49.876 --> 0:10:55.036 to the airport, should you wait in line or immediately leave? 0:10:55.756 --> 0:10:58.956 So coaching just ends up making the rich richer. Yeah, 0:10:58.956 --> 0:11:03.956 it's one of the many factors that contribute to this curve. 0:11:04.076 --> 0:11:09.716 We've all seen about the one percent or the point 0:11:09.796 --> 0:11:15.116 or one percent share of the economy. No one's coaching 0:11:15.196 --> 0:11:17.836 the tens of millions of Americans on the wrong end 0:11:17.836 --> 0:11:22.476 of consumer finance. No one even seems interested. I've tried, 0:11:22.716 --> 0:11:26.596 unsuccessfully to get somebody to create what I call the 0:11:26.676 --> 0:11:33.196 good bank. With this good bank look like, well, so 0:11:33.556 --> 0:11:39.316 it would warn you when you're about to overdraw your 0:11:39.356 --> 0:11:44.116 credit card, rather than wait until the end of the 0:11:44.196 --> 0:11:47.556 day when you've swiped five times and they charge you 0:11:47.996 --> 0:11:51.996 twenty five dollars penalty for each swipe, twenty five bucks 0:11:51.996 --> 0:11:55.116 a swipe. It's supposed to scare you from overdrawing your account, 0:11:55.716 --> 0:11:58.836 but you only get the warning after it's too late. 0:11:59.316 --> 0:12:01.356 I mean, there's a reason for this it's a subtle 0:12:01.356 --> 0:12:04.436 form of coaching that makes the banks a lot of money. No, 0:12:04.556 --> 0:12:07.836 the problem is people pay bad coaches and not good coaches, right, 0:12:09.676 --> 0:12:12.996 and they pay because they don't see the charge. Right. 0:12:13.716 --> 0:12:16.876 Trip to bad coaching is never show the bill, Yeah, exactly. 0:12:16.956 --> 0:12:18.596 The problem with good coaching is you have to show 0:12:18.636 --> 0:12:21.356 the bill. It basically goes something like this, Right, So 0:12:21.396 --> 0:12:23.716 at the start of the month, you're paid your paycheck. 0:12:23.996 --> 0:12:28.116 This is angela strange venture capitalists and connoisseur of how 0:12:28.156 --> 0:12:31.196 the financial sector exploits human nature. And so you send 0:12:31.196 --> 0:12:33.836 your rent check out and you don't see in your 0:12:33.836 --> 0:12:36.836 bank account that check is cleared, probably for a few days. 0:12:36.876 --> 0:12:39.036 You pay a bunch of other bills. You know that 0:12:39.076 --> 0:12:42.156 those are gonna hit as costs in your bank account, 0:12:42.156 --> 0:12:45.036 but that also hasn't cleared. Now you're like, well, can 0:12:45.076 --> 0:12:48.396 I pay this bill? I think so, But you're doing 0:12:48.476 --> 0:12:51.556 some mental math around the checks that you have in 0:12:51.596 --> 0:12:54.596 the air, like you just don't have a sense of 0:12:54.636 --> 0:12:58.156 what is your real time cash position. And then, oh, 0:12:58.156 --> 0:13:00.436 by the way, if you screw it up, it's a 0:13:00.476 --> 0:13:03.356 thirty five dollars overdraft feech time, right, Like there were 0:13:03.436 --> 0:13:06.476 thirty four billion dollars in overdraft fees paid last year, 0:13:06.756 --> 0:13:10.156 again refitting from people screwing up. Its huge, it's huge, 0:13:10.156 --> 0:13:13.356 it's huge. Wait wait, thirty four billion dollars in overdraft 0:13:13.396 --> 0:13:17.516 fees yep is the typical penalty thirty five bucks. Yeah, 0:13:17.516 --> 0:13:19.916 it's clem up. It used to be twenty five about 0:13:19.956 --> 0:13:22.476 ten years ago. So that means that there are a 0:13:22.556 --> 0:13:25.596 billion instances of this a year, yes, and they tend 0:13:25.636 --> 0:13:28.156 to be concentrated where the people they get hit with 0:13:28.196 --> 0:13:32.196 overdraft get hit a lot. Thirty four billion dollars in 0:13:32.276 --> 0:13:35.396 overdraft fees is really just the start. There's more than 0:13:35.436 --> 0:13:38.036 one hundred billion in credit card late payment fees and 0:13:38.116 --> 0:13:41.596 interest charged each year. And then there's the entire credit 0:13:41.596 --> 0:13:45.156 card industry, which thrives on the mistakes people make playing 0:13:45.196 --> 0:13:49.356 the money game. There is now over one trillion dollars 0:13:49.476 --> 0:13:52.396 of credit card debt in the US. People who have 0:13:52.436 --> 0:13:54.836 this debt, it's fim about fifteen thousand dollars. They tend 0:13:54.876 --> 0:13:57.276 to have it across three to four different cards. So 0:13:57.396 --> 0:13:59.076 let's say you're like, Okay, I don't want to be 0:13:59.156 --> 0:14:00.556 in credit card debt. I need to get out of 0:14:00.596 --> 0:14:03.876 credit card debt. Just going through what is that process. 0:14:04.076 --> 0:14:07.436 You have debt across three to four different cards, they 0:14:07.636 --> 0:14:11.076 likely charge different rates, they have different due dates. So 0:14:11.156 --> 0:14:13.956 do you pay off the highest rate card first? Oh, 0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:15.756 by the way, like what is the highest rate card? 0:14:16.196 --> 0:14:19.076 It's just a very complicated mess to get your way 0:14:19.156 --> 0:14:22.436 out of. Angela wondered why no one had tried to 0:14:22.476 --> 0:14:25.316 help people who had gotten into this mess. Why no 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:28.436 one had, say, tried to create a money coaching business, 0:14:28.996 --> 0:14:31.076 the same way that Richard Thaylor wondered, why no one 0:14:31.076 --> 0:14:33.796 had even tried to create a good bank. Then she 0:14:33.916 --> 0:14:37.156 realized the sort of people with the ability to coach 0:14:37.196 --> 0:14:40.396 other people about money, or to finance a company to 0:14:40.396 --> 0:14:44.076 coach other people about money. Those people already had money. 0:14:45.076 --> 0:14:47.916 People who didn't have money were like Martians to them. 0:14:48.196 --> 0:14:50.996 Like your investment banker is not the person who grew 0:14:51.036 --> 0:14:53.796 up on food stamps, right, And he's not the person 0:14:53.836 --> 0:14:56.076 who's got five different credit cards maxed out and is 0:14:56.076 --> 0:14:59.756 paying thirty percent interest rate to some bank. Another problem 0:14:59.796 --> 0:15:04.196 Angela saw trust Americans had been screwed by consumer finance 0:15:04.236 --> 0:15:06.116 for so long that they were likely to be wary 0:15:06.196 --> 0:15:09.236 when some companies sprung up claiming it was actually going 0:15:09.276 --> 0:15:12.196 to be on their side, like it takes time as 0:15:12.236 --> 0:15:14.916 an athlete or as anything to build trust with your coach, 0:15:15.476 --> 0:15:18.476 until they'll start by making these suggestions and you might 0:15:18.516 --> 0:15:20.236 follow them, you might not follow them. And you know, 0:15:20.276 --> 0:15:22.196 if they're a good coach and they know you really well, 0:15:22.596 --> 0:15:25.156 then you'll notice that over time, as you take more 0:15:25.196 --> 0:15:34.396 of their suggestions, you tend to perform better. The explosion 0:15:34.436 --> 0:15:38.076 of coaching, it's related to the war on referees. It's 0:15:38.076 --> 0:15:40.756 what happens when more and more of life feels like 0:15:40.796 --> 0:15:44.556 a brutal competitive sport. The scarier it is to lose, 0:15:44.756 --> 0:15:47.996 the more people scramble to find an edge. That's what 0:15:48.076 --> 0:15:53.276 a coach offers, an edge. Angela Strange had noticed an absence, 0:15:53.676 --> 0:15:56.436 just as Richard Taylor had noticed an absence of a 0:15:56.516 --> 0:16:00.116 coach who really should exist in the middle of American 0:16:00.156 --> 0:16:05.436 financial life. Both were waiting for whom or what they 0:16:05.476 --> 0:16:21.516 did not know. In the Year of Our Lord nineteen 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:24.876 seventy nine, in the Mountains of Colorado, a woman gives 0:16:24.956 --> 0:16:29.556 birth out of wedlock to a boy, Jason. She names him. 0:16:29.716 --> 0:16:33.236 The mom's name is Christina Brown. She's a fundamentalist Christian 0:16:33.316 --> 0:16:36.556 and takes the Bible as the literal truth. She doesn't 0:16:36.596 --> 0:16:38.276 know how she's going to make ends meet, but she 0:16:38.316 --> 0:16:40.756 knows what she wants for her child. She wants him 0:16:40.796 --> 0:16:44.316 to be well educated. To make sure that happens, she'll 0:16:44.436 --> 0:16:50.196 educate him herself. When we were studying the health unit, 0:16:50.676 --> 0:16:53.556 I had Jason cleaned the floor on his hands and 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:56.956 knees with an extra fifty pound backpack on his back, 0:16:57.236 --> 0:16:58.916 so that he would know what it would be like 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:02.716 to be overweight. That's Christina. She didn't want her son 0:17:02.756 --> 0:17:05.476 to be taught what was taught in schools, the theory 0:17:05.476 --> 0:17:08.476 of evolution, for instance, but mostly she just thought she 0:17:08.476 --> 0:17:11.516 could teach him better than any school could. It was like, hey, Jason, 0:17:11.556 --> 0:17:14.036 what do you want to learn? The world is your classroom. 0:17:14.076 --> 0:17:16.676 You can go learn anything you want. That's Jason Brown, 0:17:17.036 --> 0:17:19.876 all grown up now. And you know there's one time 0:17:19.876 --> 0:17:21.996 in particular, I remember, She's like, what do you want 0:17:21.996 --> 0:17:24.396 to learn? And I said, I want to learn about taxidermy, 0:17:24.956 --> 0:17:27.796 and she said, okay, fine. She goes through the Yellow Pages. 0:17:27.876 --> 0:17:29.676 This was in the time where he had Yellow Pages, 0:17:29.676 --> 0:17:33.756 and she calls all the taxidermists and convinces that some 0:17:33.836 --> 0:17:36.356 guy who owns a taxidermy shop to let us go 0:17:36.756 --> 0:17:39.796 camp out in his workplace for a week, and we 0:17:39.796 --> 0:17:41.956 would show up there and he would he would show 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:44.476 us how he would take these animals and you end 0:17:44.516 --> 0:17:46.716 up stuffing them and turning them into things that could 0:17:46.756 --> 0:17:49.556 go on people's walls. And what was really cool is 0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:51.796 you know, I learned about biology. I learned about the 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:54.756 anatomy of animals. He taught us about the chemicals that 0:17:54.796 --> 0:17:56.796 were used. And then I would ask a lot of 0:17:56.876 --> 0:17:59.516 questions about just the business of taxidermy, like how much 0:17:59.556 --> 0:18:01.356 do you all these chemicals cost? How much do you 0:18:01.396 --> 0:18:02.756 pay for this thing? What do you sell it for 0:18:03.356 --> 0:18:06.796 the education of Jason Brown wasn't normal. It was kinetic. 0:18:07.076 --> 0:18:10.516 Hands on his mother and uraged him to ask questions. 0:18:11.116 --> 0:18:13.196 But at the same time, he lived in a very 0:18:13.236 --> 0:18:18.316 small world. It was just her and him and his 0:18:18.356 --> 0:18:21.916 little brother. Maybe because he was so dependent on his mom, 0:18:21.956 --> 0:18:24.716 he worried about her. Even as a little kid, he 0:18:24.756 --> 0:18:28.596 could see that she was exposed and vulnerable, especially when 0:18:28.596 --> 0:18:32.676 it came to money. My money was in envelopes, and 0:18:33.236 --> 0:18:36.996 each envelope had a different designation, and when the money 0:18:37.076 --> 0:18:39.196 was gone, it was gone. What would have been the 0:18:39.276 --> 0:18:44.756 envelopes designations okay. The first envelope was my tithe, then 0:18:44.796 --> 0:18:51.876 it was rent, then it was groceries, miscellaneous electric gas, 0:18:53.236 --> 0:18:58.476 and you paid in that order. That's right. We literally, 0:18:58.636 --> 0:19:01.676 and I'm not exaggerating, eight beans and rice. Pretty much 0:19:01.676 --> 0:19:04.236 every day. I ground my own wheat, made my own 0:19:04.276 --> 0:19:08.476 whole wheat, bread, made my own tortillas, made cereal in 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:12.076 the croc for breakfast, and we had peanut butter on toast. 0:19:12.196 --> 0:19:16.436 We ate very simply. We shopped at Goodwill, even for 0:19:16.596 --> 0:19:22.756 a Christmas gift's birthday gifts. Sometimes Jason snuck a peek 0:19:22.836 --> 0:19:25.396 inside the money envelopes. A lot of the time they 0:19:25.396 --> 0:19:28.196 were totally empty. Yet, even when she had no money, 0:19:28.436 --> 0:19:31.556 his mother insisted on staying home and teaching him and 0:19:31.596 --> 0:19:34.076 his brother. By the time he was ten years old, 0:19:34.276 --> 0:19:37.596 Jason was fully aware that his mother was running huge risks. 0:19:38.556 --> 0:19:42.196 They were totally on their own. There was no safety net. 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:45.916 The most trivial events could disrupt their lives. So we 0:19:46.196 --> 0:19:48.676 had this friend, his name was Donnie. He's a big kid, 0:19:49.116 --> 0:19:51.636 and he came over to the house and spent the 0:19:51.676 --> 0:19:53.836 weekend or something like that. And Donnie ate a lot, 0:19:54.556 --> 0:19:57.876 and he really really liked milk too, and I remember 0:19:57.956 --> 0:20:01.436 specifically in the kitchen and Donnie was just pounding the 0:20:01.436 --> 0:20:04.916 milk and he finished the milk, and I remember looking 0:20:04.916 --> 0:20:07.756 at my mom and she looked at me, and I 0:20:07.756 --> 0:20:12.436 could just see the dreaded fear on her face because 0:20:12.876 --> 0:20:15.716 Donnie drank all the milk. Donnie drank an envelope. Yeah, 0:20:15.756 --> 0:20:18.436 he drank an envelope, And we just like because I 0:20:18.756 --> 0:20:22.316 knew that the envelope for food was already used up. 0:20:22.396 --> 0:20:25.316 And you know, I could see in her eyes like, hey, 0:20:25.316 --> 0:20:26.836 what are we gonna do, Like we can't go on 0:20:26.956 --> 0:20:33.236 buy more mild like that's it. So they went without milk. 0:20:33.916 --> 0:20:36.316 Another memory is the day Jason's mom told him that 0:20:36.316 --> 0:20:38.996 she needed to take on a second job and it'd 0:20:38.996 --> 0:20:41.636 have to go to a real school. He was in 0:20:41.676 --> 0:20:44.836 the eighth grade. The real school was hellish. Other kids 0:20:44.876 --> 0:20:47.036 made fun of him. One day, a kid just walked 0:20:47.076 --> 0:20:48.556 up to him and punched him in the face, and 0:20:48.636 --> 0:20:52.396 no one did anything about it. Jason felt totally loved 0:20:52.436 --> 0:20:55.316 by his mom, and he loved her back. She'd given 0:20:55.396 --> 0:20:58.716 him real strengths. He knew how to learn to teach himself, 0:20:59.596 --> 0:21:02.996 but she'd also left him with a fear of money, 0:21:04.036 --> 0:21:08.276 of being one accident away from disaster. His mother couldn't 0:21:08.316 --> 0:21:10.196 afford for him to all off his bike and break 0:21:10.236 --> 0:21:13.156 his wrist, much less pay for him to go to college. 0:21:13.796 --> 0:21:17.196 He went to the University of Colorado. Anyway. To pay 0:21:17.236 --> 0:21:20.556 for it, he took out student loans, but the moment 0:21:20.596 --> 0:21:24.156 he did that, he felt exposed and vulnerable. Like his mom. 0:21:24.636 --> 0:21:29.676 He was eighteen years old. I would drive home every 0:21:29.716 --> 0:21:33.516 single weekend starting in January, and I would go home 0:21:33.556 --> 0:21:35.836 to my hometown where I grew up, and it was 0:21:35.876 --> 0:21:37.836 about two to two and a half hour drive, and 0:21:37.876 --> 0:21:41.276 I would spend the weekend knocking on doors, handing out flyers, 0:21:41.316 --> 0:21:43.276 say hey, would you hire me to paint your house. 0:21:43.596 --> 0:21:45.956 Jason had never painted a house, but then there was 0:21:45.956 --> 0:21:47.876 a time when he didn't know how to stuff an animal, 0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:50.156 and he'd figured out how to do that. And there's just, 0:21:50.276 --> 0:21:52.316 you know, there's six feet of snow outside, and this 0:21:52.476 --> 0:21:54.716 kid is trying to convince you to paint his house. 0:21:54.756 --> 0:21:57.556 And they're like, number one, come back to me in 0:21:57.596 --> 0:21:59.836 the summer. Number two, how many houses have you paint up? Like? 0:21:59.876 --> 0:22:02.036 I've never painted a house in my life, but I 0:22:02.116 --> 0:22:03.956 promise I'm going to hire people who do know how 0:22:03.956 --> 0:22:06.676 to paint their house. Maybe the oddest thing about Jason 0:22:06.756 --> 0:22:08.996 Brown is he found nothing odd about any of this. 0:22:09.716 --> 0:22:13.316 An eighteen year old convincing grown ups in the snow 0:22:13.716 --> 0:22:16.676 to trust him with their homes. So I brought snowshoes, 0:22:16.996 --> 0:22:18.276 and I would have a pair for me and a 0:22:18.316 --> 0:22:20.116 pair for them. And now I knew, as long as 0:22:20.116 --> 0:22:22.476 I could convince the homeowner to put on their shoes 0:22:22.516 --> 0:22:24.716 and coat and go around the house with me in snowshoes, 0:22:25.036 --> 0:22:26.556 that they would then by the end of that have 0:22:26.596 --> 0:22:31.196 a pretty good chance of hiring me. He was still 0:22:31.236 --> 0:22:33.676 a kid, but pretty soon this wasn't a kid's business. 0:22:34.236 --> 0:22:36.916 The crazy thing is, by the end of the summer, 0:22:37.156 --> 0:22:40.476 I had painted something like forty or fifty homes, and 0:22:40.756 --> 0:22:43.516 I had I think fifteen or twenty employees, And I 0:22:43.556 --> 0:22:47.636 actually put fifty thousand dollars in my pocket for one summer. Really, 0:22:47.676 --> 0:22:50.596 you cleared fifty one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a 0:22:50.596 --> 0:22:53.636 total revenue, and it was fifty thousand dollars nut to me. 0:22:54.276 --> 0:22:57.436 He wasn't done. After Jason's first year in college, he 0:22:57.516 --> 0:23:00.796 set out to grow his business. Rural Colorado wasn't a 0:23:00.836 --> 0:23:03.996 great market. There weren't that many houses. The weather was 0:23:03.996 --> 0:23:06.156 hard on paint, but not as hard as it was 0:23:06.196 --> 0:23:08.956 in other places. He decided to find a better market, 0:23:10.196 --> 0:23:13.636 and so I transferred to Boston University. And by the 0:23:13.716 --> 0:23:18.156 time wait, wait, you transferred to Boston University specifically to 0:23:18.236 --> 0:23:20.836 pursue the business of painting houses, I did, yes, Because 0:23:20.836 --> 0:23:22.676 you'd based so much money in painting houses. I didn't. 0:23:22.676 --> 0:23:23.876 I was like, I was like, you weren't even in 0:23:23.876 --> 0:23:25.836 the right place to paint house exactly. To pick your 0:23:25.876 --> 0:23:28.196 school based on where there'd be the most houses to paint, 0:23:28.276 --> 0:23:32.076 you got it exactly. At BU Jason ran his painting 0:23:32.116 --> 0:23:35.836 business from his laptop at the back of classrooms, prepping 0:23:35.876 --> 0:23:37.876 for the big season in the summer. When we were 0:23:37.876 --> 0:23:40.116 painting all the houses, it was about four hundred employees, 0:23:40.476 --> 0:23:43.316