1
00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,480
Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released weekly every Wednesday and brought

2
00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:05,920
Speaker 1: to you absolutely free.

3
00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:07,200
Speaker 2: But if you want at.

4
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:11,520
Speaker 1: Free listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at

5
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,000
Speaker 1: tenderfootplus dot com or on Apple Podcasts.

6
00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,040
Speaker 3: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

7
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 3: iHeart Podcasts. Listener discretion is advised.

8
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:24,960
Speaker 2: Welcome to Talking to Death.

9
00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,159
Speaker 1: If you're an Up and Vanished listener and this is

10
00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 1: the first time you're coming here, Thanks for stopping by.

11
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,360
Speaker 1: This is my weekly podcast where I talk about true crime, UFOs,

12
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:42,240
Speaker 1: pop culture, other random weird shit, and I interview my friends,

13
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,040
Speaker 1: peers and other people that I look up to and

14
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,840
Speaker 1: try to just figure out how they're getting through life

15
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 1: like we are. It's a fun mixed bag of different people,

16
00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,360
Speaker 1: but a lot of my friends happen to do podcasts.

17
00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 1: This whole new season of Up and Vanished, I wanted

18
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,120
Speaker 1: to be able to take you a little bit further

19
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 1: behind the scenes and talk more candidly about different aspects

20
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,039
Speaker 1: of it, and this seemed like the perfect place to

21
00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,120
Speaker 1: do that. We're going to discuss what you just listen to,

22
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,720
Speaker 1: and we have a really fun list of other true

23
00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 1: crime podcasters and experts in the field that will be

24
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,520
Speaker 1: coming on as guests every week. I'm gonna go ahead

25
00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,479
Speaker 1: and say spoiler alert if you haven't listened to episode

26
00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,840
Speaker 1: one and two of Up in Vanish season four in

27
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,880
Speaker 1: the midnight Sun, I would just go ahead and do

28
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,759
Speaker 1: that real quick, or you will be spoiled. So please

29
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,920
Speaker 1: listen to the whole episode. It's completely worth it, I promised,

30
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,440
Speaker 1: And if you do, at the very end, I'm going

31
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:50,200
Speaker 1: to play a short teaser of episode three of Up

32
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:55,400
Speaker 1: and Vanished, definitely worth sticking around for. And we'll be

33
00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,600
Speaker 1: doing this every week on Fridays after the latest release

34
00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,520
Speaker 1: of UP and we'll be back here again next Friday

35
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 1: after episode three is out. But yeah, I'm joined here

36
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 1: with Mike and Dylan. You guys were a part of

37
00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,880
Speaker 1: Up and Vanished. You still are a part of Up

38
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,680
Speaker 1: and Vanished. Because it's not over. I feel like, because

39
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,920
Speaker 1: my head is so deeply in this, not only in

40
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 1: the case, but the actual edit of the show and

41
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,000
Speaker 1: all this tape i'm hearing, it's really hard for me

42
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 1: to step out and just think of anything to even say.

43
00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 1: So I'm glad Dylan's here because I want you to just,

44
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,200
Speaker 1: you know, throw out some thoughts or some thoughts, starters

45
00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,680
Speaker 1: or questions of your own, just trying to be as

46
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 1: an objective listener and that'll probably get it going. But

47
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:52,119
Speaker 1: it's like neck deep in complete madness if we're being real.

48
00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 1: Mike can definitely test that.

49
00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm class of season two up and vanished. Yeah,

50
00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,839
Speaker 4: you're the new recruit now, Dylan, mm hmm.

51
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:08,359
Speaker 5: What is this season four? Getting my season four metal currently?

52
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 5: Which is pretty cool? It's yeah, you know, it's it's

53
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,480
Speaker 5: neat because I've known both of you guys for you know,

54
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 5: ten plus years, work together on and off. But it's

55
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,800
Speaker 5: cool to, like, for the first time, get to be

56
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,320
Speaker 5: a part of the podcast process and see how it

57
00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,000
Speaker 5: goes start to finish, see how it all kind of

58
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,680
Speaker 5: comes together, really going from nothing to you know something.

59
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,000
Speaker 5: That is this release that just came out today, And

60
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,920
Speaker 5: props to you guys for all the hard work, all

61
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,679
Speaker 5: the editing. I mean it, it looks and it sounds

62
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,840
Speaker 5: just so fucking cool. So I listened to it today.

63
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,400
Speaker 2: How's the podcast look, Dylan?

64
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 5: It looks like blackness? Actually there's did you watch a

65
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,080
Speaker 5: thing there at all? I watched it inside my own head. Yeah,

66
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 5: of the mind, right, but no, you know, I'm stoked

67
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 5: to be here. I'm stoked to get to talk to

68
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,840
Speaker 5: you guys about it. For those that don't know me,

69
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 5: which is literally everybody, I'm the producer for Talking to Death,

70
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,840
Speaker 5: I'm the lead producer, so it's cool to get to

71
00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 5: do this crossover and you know, get to see these

72
00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,600
Speaker 5: worlds come together behind the scenes. But to that end,

73
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 5: we want to kind of use some of this time

74
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 5: in the intros for Talking to Death, to interview Paine,

75
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,040
Speaker 5: interview Mike, and I guess myself as well. I can

76
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 5: chat about it and just kind of chat through the process,

77
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,400
Speaker 5: chat through your thoughts. Eventually, maybe we can use this

78
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,200
Speaker 5: time to answer some questions or comments about the episodes

79
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,840
Speaker 5: as we go. But yeah, I'd love to just jump

80
00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 5: right into it. If you guys are ready, let's do it.

81
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 2: Let's talk up and vanish baby, let's do it.

82
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,640
Speaker 5: I'm so curious what your thoughts are now that episode

83
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,200
Speaker 5: one is out and it's released and you can't mess

84
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 5: with it anymore. How are you feeling?

85
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,039
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm numb to it at this point.

86
00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,960
Speaker 1: Honestly, the only time I ever really listened back to

87
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,360
Speaker 1: an episode like in terms of going back in time.

88
00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 1: Once it's published is the day that it comes out

89
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 1: and it's too late to delete it. I'll give it

90
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,880
Speaker 1: one listen through that day, and so anything I didn't

91
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 1: like or like, you know, I thought could be better

92
00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,760
Speaker 1: or whatever, it definitely sticks with you because can't change it,

93
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,279
Speaker 1: and it's frustrating. But that's kind of my method. But

94
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 1: the thing is, it's once it's out, I'm already on

95
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,479
Speaker 1: to the next thing. I My head is deeper in

96
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,159
Speaker 1: this case than the context of one and two, and

97
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 1: a lot of that is still actively happening, and that's

98
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:19,880
Speaker 1: the most important thing to me right now.

99
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,719
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's so much to get through, so

100
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 5: much to work through and put it all together, and

101
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 5: I can't even imagine how it feels. It's probably a

102
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 5: feeling of relief to some degree, just be like it's

103
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,120
Speaker 5: finally done, it's out and people are hearing it now.

104
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,520
Speaker 5: But then there's this whole other side of you know,

105
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,480
Speaker 5: now people are listening to it, and what's that going

106
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:36,760
Speaker 5: to mean.

107
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 1: It's like a quick, tiny sigh of relief, But then

108
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,920
Speaker 1: you it's like I know that this is also just

109
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,800
Speaker 1: getting started, So it's not like I have just accomplished

110
00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,000
Speaker 1: something and I'm like, thanks, guys, see you later. It's like, no,

111
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,360
Speaker 1: it really just it's just now beginning in a lot

112
00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:55,920
Speaker 1: of ways.

113
00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,800
Speaker 5: So let's talk about episode one. Said the Stage four US.

114
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 5: You're kind of giving the audience a period of your

115
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 5: journey into Nome, your first introduction to the case. You're

116
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,080
Speaker 5: setting up a little bit of backstory and background on

117
00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,600
Speaker 5: flow and kind of describing what Gnome is, Like, I mean,

118
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,479
Speaker 5: what was your experience with all of them?

119
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,040
Speaker 1: Well, I was thinking about like what I could say

120
00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: that would be interesting about episode one, and one thing

121
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 1: actually stood out, and I was when I was building

122
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,239
Speaker 1: the episode, I was contemplating whether or not to include

123
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:32,039
Speaker 1: this part because I felt like people wouldn't believe it.

124
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 1: And the point I'm talking about is how Cooper told

125
00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,440
Speaker 1: me about this case and I had really decided to

126
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:47,480
Speaker 1: do this, and then I genuinely did find Deila's email

127
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 1: weeks later after we were already working on this and everything.

128
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,440
Speaker 1: I was hoping that would just feel authentic, because it is,

129
00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 1: and if it felt like I was just trying to

130
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 1: contribe something to drum up some drama or suspense or whatever,

131
00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 1: I was just going to cut it but I was like,

132
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,880
Speaker 1: I thought it was wildly weird and unique that that happened,

133
00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,239
Speaker 1: But I could easily see as an objective listener, You're like, Okay, yeah, bullshit.

134
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

135
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,400
Speaker 1: But I got it to work, and I was glad

136
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 1: I got to include it because Dieila and myself both

137
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,280
Speaker 1: felt the same way about that. So I thought that

138
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,640
Speaker 1: was kind of a neat thing, and if I could

139
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: make it work, I was going to include it.

140
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 5: We talk a lot about, you know, serendipity and synchronicity

141
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,720
Speaker 5: when it comes like investigating these things and kind of

142
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 5: connecting the dots, and it's just so strange, Like the

143
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 5: deeper you look into things and the more you pay attention,

144
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,040
Speaker 5: a lot of times you find these strange little connections.

145
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 5: Even if they happened, you know, two years before, and

146
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,400
Speaker 5: you didn't see it for two years. An email can

147
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,040
Speaker 5: resurface two years later when the dots start to connect

148
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,760
Speaker 5: in that way, and I think that just it. It

149
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 5: goes to show your really impressive investigation skills more than anything.

150
00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,240
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Dylan, you got it. Yeah.

151
00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 1: I feel like with Sarenpity all that kind of stuff.

152
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,000
Speaker 1: I've told Mike this before too, I feel like there

153
00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:12,280
Speaker 1: is this sort of plane that I can get on

154
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,600
Speaker 1: and off of, right, and when I'm in the thick

155
00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,200
Speaker 1: of up and vanished investigating, and you know that I'm

156
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 1: that's my entire world essentially, I eventually find myself getting

157
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,080
Speaker 1: on some other like this is all in my head,

158
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 1: but like some other plane where if I stay there

159
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 1: and once I'm there, it's everything just clicks. It's happening

160
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,120
Speaker 1: before I even think it, and that person's going this way,

161
00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,080
Speaker 1: and then this happened and that folded into this thing.

162
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,760
Speaker 1: And you know, I always so I'm always striving to

163
00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,400
Speaker 1: kind of get back to that place, but I also

164
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:55,040
Speaker 1: can tell when I'm not there too. I'm not always there.

165
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,480
Speaker 1: And this has kind of been like a conscious thought

166
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,120
Speaker 1: I've had over years of making true crime podcasts. Were

167
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,720
Speaker 1: very strange, you know, coincidental things have happened, and you know,

168
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,880
Speaker 1: I think that Mike and I when we were working

169
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,560
Speaker 1: on Dead and Gone, the other true crime podcasts that

170
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 1: I have. If you haven't listened to that, you should

171
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 1: season one of that. There were so many moments that

172
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 1: were like that's where I got the word from. Really,

173
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 1: it's just serendipitous, right, I remember you'd saying that too,

174
00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,040
Speaker 1: Mike when we were out there in Portland, like just

175
00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,840
Speaker 1: and how much of it is confirmation biased and how

176
00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,360
Speaker 1: much of it is you know, but sometimes there's just

177
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,680
Speaker 1: shit that happens and you're like, either way, that's weird,

178
00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 1: right right.

179
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. For the longest time, I was like the biggest

180
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,959
Speaker 4: skeptic of all of that stuff. I was like the

181
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,040
Speaker 4: worst about that, Like nothing was magic, there's no such

182
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,720
Speaker 4: thing as synchronosy. But when you see it so many

183
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,080
Speaker 4: times over and over again and you see this pattern

184
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,840
Speaker 4: of like, oh, this is like it's something telling me

185
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,640
Speaker 4: to go this way, like it searchs the kind of

186
00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,640
Speaker 4: weird you out, and I don't know, I started believing

187
00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 4: in whatever that is something.

188
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 2: What do you think that is? Though?

189
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 4: Like I haven't the universe, you know, the universe.

190
00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,720
Speaker 1: In mother naturedestined way, like this is the correct way

191
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,559
Speaker 1: that you were to go, or you are building it

192
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,480
Speaker 1: and it's going to work, or you're tapping into something

193
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:15,840
Speaker 1: or is this all just in your head?

194
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,720
Speaker 4: I think it is some kind of connection. I don't

195
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,640
Speaker 4: know what it is. I don't know if it's spiritual

196
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,000
Speaker 4: connection or like you said, in our head or we're

197
00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,199
Speaker 4: all in a simulation. Who knows. But I don't think

198
00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,800
Speaker 4: it's necessarily telling me I'm going the right way. I

199
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 4: think it's just the It's like when people say, well,

200
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 4: a small world, you know, it's like, what are the

201
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,560
Speaker 4: odds of you running into somebody like in Alaska that

202
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,599
Speaker 4: you went to high school with or something like it?

203
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 4: Just as an example, you know, that's really like statistically unlikely.

204
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,160
Speaker 4: And a lot of the stuff that was happening on

205
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,679
Speaker 4: Dead and Gone, I was like, there's this isn't confirmation,

206
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,000
Speaker 4: but this is something else in play here.

207
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,959
Speaker 1: This is like already turning into like a spiritual cult

208
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,920
Speaker 1: sounding podcast right now. This is what happens when you

209
00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:07,400
Speaker 1: are just using your brain at its full capacity trying

210
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 1: to solve an unsolved missing person's case. Genuinely, you start

211
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,839
Speaker 1: thinking this way because it's so heavy, there's so much

212
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,120
Speaker 1: going on. There's so many people that we are talking

213
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 1: to constantly, and it's not even everyone you hear on

214
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,320
Speaker 1: the podcast. You know, there's a lot of people in

215
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 1: the community that we're you know, tight with, and law

216
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,440
Speaker 1: enforcement and this agency, that agency, other journalists, and there's

217
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,680
Speaker 1: so many moving parts and it's a living, breathing thing

218
00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,880
Speaker 1: that you feel like you're genuinely a part of and

219
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 1: you want to take care of and you start thinking

220
00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,600
Speaker 1: this way about it when things start clicking.

221
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 5: Where was your mind at when you first landed innme,

222
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,280
Speaker 5: and do you kind of remember where you started the investigation.

223
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 1: When I touched down in Know, it just feels like

224
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 1: you're on the edge of the way world because you're

225
00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 1: looking out and it's nothing but ocean, right, and you

226
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,960
Speaker 1: check your your maps on your iPhone and you see

227
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:13,360
Speaker 1: Russia right there, right, and you're I'm just thinking to myself,

228
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,320
Speaker 1: I'm still in America, right, It's just so geographically far

229
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,880
Speaker 1: from where I live that it's it's almost hard to

230
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,440
Speaker 1: comprehend that we're in the same country, just geographically right.

231
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 1: You feel like you're you're far away from what is

232
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 1: familiar to you as an outsider going there, right, it's

233
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,000
Speaker 1: just a tiny place. It is incredibly small. I mean,

234
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,160
Speaker 1: we've all been there, Like you've been there too, Dylan.

235
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,760
Speaker 1: We did a lot of walking around, like you can

236
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,840
Speaker 1: mostly walk everywhere unless you're going to the airport. You

237
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,720
Speaker 1: know that that would just be a longer walk, but

238
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,679
Speaker 1: you could do it. You know, once you kind of

239
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,560
Speaker 1: leave the where the housing is it's nothingness. It's just

240
00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 1: tundra and mountainous terrain and just wildlife, and it's it's

241
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,839
Speaker 1: right around the corner, and it's I've never really been

242
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:08,960
Speaker 1: to a place that felt like that.

243
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,840
Speaker 5: So the journey to know him is, I mean, you

244
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 5: have to take several flights to get to these places

245
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,000
Speaker 5: that you're going. Along the way, you meet this character Ray,

246
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,320
Speaker 5: who is just like such an interesting old man. What

247
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 5: can you tell me about him and the experiences you

248
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 5: had with him?

249
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,680
Speaker 2: Well, firstly, he is a super nice guy.

250
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,080
Speaker 1: He was just a friendly old man, and he just

251
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:34,080
Speaker 1: he almost seemed like a storybook character to me, Like,

252
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,040
Speaker 1: what's that like, not the monopoly guy, but what's the

253
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,320
Speaker 1: other guy with a monocle or something like an old miner?

254
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,960
Speaker 4: Are you talking about mister peanut.

255
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 1: Mister peanut, mister peanut the planners, Yeah, now you know who.

256
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,120
Speaker 4: He actually reminded me of the old the neighbor in

257
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,000
Speaker 4: pet Cemetery, you know what I'm talking about.

258
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, just a little bit of that too.

259
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,960
Speaker 1: I was just you know, it felt like a small

260
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,760
Speaker 1: world to me that we bumped into this gold miner

261
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:15,360
Speaker 1: so quickly upon landing there, and that seemed like it

262
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,840
Speaker 1: was a mandatory interview that I needed to prioritize in

263
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 1: the moment because of the circumstances of Flow's disappearance. You know,

264
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 1: she went missing on this beach where basically only the

265
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,280
Speaker 1: miners live in camp and this guy has been mining

266
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,120
Speaker 1: there for twenty five years. This guy probably knows every

267
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,720
Speaker 1: single person who's a miner there and who's ever been there,

268
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 1: And so talking to him, I liked being able to

269
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 1: learn a little bit about, you know, what gold mining

270
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,360
Speaker 1: actually is up there, and you know, just sort of

271
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: some personal thoughts. When I was interviewing him, there were

272
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,400
Speaker 1: a few moments that I felt like I didn't fully

273
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,280
Speaker 1: understand why he seemed to know so much but also

274
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,320
Speaker 1: seem to give so little, and most of the stuff

275
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:10,000
Speaker 1: that he said about Flow's case, like I asked him

276
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 1: like a question, but he kind of went on his own.

277
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,000
Speaker 1: And there's even some tape that I didn't put out

278
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,160
Speaker 1: yet because I'm still kind of figuring out what it means,

279
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,920
Speaker 1: and maybe it comes full circle in it dovetails later

280
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,480
Speaker 1: and if it doesn't, then I'll just tell you what

281
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,040
Speaker 1: it is. But I don't want to jeopardize it in

282
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,960
Speaker 1: the moment. But there are some things that I heard

283
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 1: that I thought were really strange beyond what you heard,

284
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,440
Speaker 1: And I'm just curious if that's just the way that

285
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,880
Speaker 1: it sounds, or if it connects to any of the

286
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,680
Speaker 1: things that I am dealing with now in terms of

287
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 1: the persons of interest in her disappearance.

288
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,640
Speaker 4: I really think Ray was a best case scenario because

289
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 4: you're going somewhere to investigate something that is suspected to be,

290
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 4: you know, a crime done by a minor, and you're

291
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,680
Speaker 4: talking to a veteran miner who's been through it all

292
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 4: and has lived there a long time. It's just a

293
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,200
Speaker 4: treasure trove of information you can gather real quick on

294
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,880
Speaker 4: the plane ride there. Like that's perfect.

295
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I it bothered me that he didn't know

296
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,720
Speaker 1: this guy's name, Like it didn't make sense to me, Like,

297
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 1: how do you know of a person and not know

298
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:26,320
Speaker 1: their name?

299
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 2: How are you assigning them in your head? Who are they?

300
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,680
Speaker 4: Well, if you think about it, though, how many of

301
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 4: these guys come and work for one season and then

302
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,280
Speaker 4: you never see him again. And how many years and

303
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 4: decades has he been with guys like that? You know,

304
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,800
Speaker 4: all the names kind of blend together I think in

305
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,120
Speaker 4: the faces after a while.

306
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess if he was not close to him,

307
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,200
Speaker 1: like he's saying, yeah, that makes sense either way. I

308
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 1: appreciate his involvement, and I think that, you know, I've

309
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,560
Speaker 1: been I've found him helpful.

310
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 5: I'd love to hear more about West Beach. I mean,

311
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,240
Speaker 5: how much more information can you tell us about it?

312
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 1: I feel like I said West Beach over one hundred

313
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,439
Speaker 1: times in episode two. Someone should go count that, Like,

314
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,880
Speaker 1: you don't have to do that, but if someone has

315
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 1: free time on their hands and you do that, I'm

316
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,080
Speaker 1: actually curious. It might be like seven, but I felt

317
00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 1: like I said it a thousand times. West Beach is

318
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,120
Speaker 1: it's not still that way, is the thing? It used

319
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 1: to be years ago, this big, huge tent camp on

320
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,920
Speaker 1: the coastline there, and the city eventually got rid of that.

321
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,640
Speaker 1: They fought them on that and they all had to move.

322
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,919
Speaker 1: So there's not people outsiders, you know, visitors, you know,

323
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,280
Speaker 1: camping for free out there on the beach, like on

324
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,679
Speaker 1: the beach like that anymore. But when Florence went missing

325
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,640
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, that was it was kind of.

326
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:46,400
Speaker 2: At the height of that.

327
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,800
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of different strangers going to

328
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,520
Speaker 1: and from town on that beach.

329
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think there was a whole protest, right, they

330
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,439
Speaker 4: didn't want them camping on the beach anymore because they

331
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 4: would come in seasonally and not buy a house or

332
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,200
Speaker 4: rent a house and just camp out basically on their

333
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:05,960
Speaker 4: work site.

334
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:11,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I think it's a weird clash of the

335
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,840
Speaker 1: native culture that's been there forever, and it's like the

336
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 1: gold rush hasn't stopped, even though they've mined so much

337
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 1: gold out of that place, and there still our deposits,

338
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 1: but it's in a way it never stopped, right.

339
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,120
Speaker 5: So going into Nome, it's a very very small town

340
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:34,280
Speaker 5: population three thousand. Most of the traffic that comes through

341
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 5: Nome hangs out on the main street called Front Street.

342
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 5: It's right there, right on the coast, I mean, butting

343
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 5: up against the ocean. What was your experience hanging around

344
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 5: Front Street, interviewing people in bars, going at the different places,

345
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 5: seeing that slice of life there.

346
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: I feel like in every true crime documentary they always

347
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 1: say like a quiet little town, and Nome isn't really

348
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 1: a quiet little town.

349
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 2: There is traffic.

350
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 1: There are loud vehicles and ATVs and bikes and stuff

351
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 1: like kind of just zipping around. What's bizarre is we

352
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,119
Speaker 1: went there first in the time period of summer where

353
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:19,400
Speaker 1: it's at its peak daylight, where it's daylight almost twenty

354
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: four hours a day.

355
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 2: It never really gets dark dark.

356
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 1: Like the darkest I ever remember it being was probably

357
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 1: like three in the morning. And one time, I remember

358
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,960
Speaker 1: we had to change Airbnbs and MAVs.

359
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 2: Took the truck.

360
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 1: I don't know why he took the truck, but we

361
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,919
Speaker 1: really needed it, and I had four suitcases and I

362
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 1: was trekking through the mud and what's crazy, I was exhausted,

363
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 1: and it was two thirty in the morning, and it

364
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 1: was broad daylight.

365
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 2: Outside, but it was completely silent.

366
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,679
Speaker 1: Everyone was inside sleeping, and I felt like I need

367
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,439
Speaker 1: to be inside sleeping too, But I'm walking around and

368
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 1: it felt like I was in a ghost town. In

369
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 1: the summertime, it's so much different than it is in

370
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 1: the winter. And we got to see a full circle

371
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:07,120
Speaker 1: of that.

372
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 5: There's not really much to do and know them except

373
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 5: go to the bars on Front Street at night. So

374
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 5: we were hanging out there in a booth and I

375
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,119
Speaker 5: remember I looked up and Mike was talking to a

376
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 5: woman at the bar she tells the story about this

377
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 5: guy whose name starts with Jay. Can you set that up?

378
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 5: How much of that do you remember about how that

379
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 5: came together?

380
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's in that clip is in episode two

381
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 1: towards the end, and that's when we were kind of

382
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,400
Speaker 1: we decided to sort of hit the bar scene there

383
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: and what even is that? And if she was last

384
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 1: seen at one of these places before she went to

385
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 1: West Beach, you know, I'm sure that the people who

386
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 1: go there all the time, if they've been there for years,

387
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 1: and they might still be in here, and people talk

388
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 1: in places like that. And we ended up striking up

389
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 1: a conversation with her, and it was weird to me

390
00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,479
Speaker 1: that I brought up flows disappearance and that sort of

391
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: prompted the emergence of this character that she was talking about.

392
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 1: It seems like everyone in town associates her disappearance with

393
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 1: this person. You know, we eventually learned that the guy

394
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 1: starts with Jay. That's probably Oregon John. The coincidence or

395
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 1: are those two stories absolutely related or are there two

396
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 1: different male cab drivers in town who are acting.

397
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 5: Like that whose names both start with Jay?

398
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right, whose names both start with Jay? Yeah?

399
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 5: Was it serendipity that we just might happen to sit

400
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 5: next to her in this bar and track up a conversation.

401
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 5: Or is this something that's so prevalent in that community

402
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 5: that maybe there's a lot of stories like this from

403
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 5: a lot of the women hang out the bars.

404
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 2: Unfortunately. I feel like there's a lot of stories like this.

405
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 1: It goes back to sort of the history of Nome

406
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 1: and the know and police department, and we talked about

407
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: Sonya Ivanov's case. You know, so some bad stuff has

408
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: happened here historically, and it hasn't necessarily entirely gone away.

409
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,439
Speaker 1: I think it's also so small that the odds of

410
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,439
Speaker 1: you running into someone who knows something is almost like

411
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 1: for certain, unless you're in a place that doesn't have

412
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: anyone there. I think that if you're in any group

413
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: of people, someone there knows more about the case than

414
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: you think they do.

415
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 4: And no word gets around very quick because of how

416
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 4: small this place is. Pretty much everyone does know everyone there.

417
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 1: As an outsider like myself trying to help solve her

418
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: disappearance with her family.

419
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 2: That can be a good thing, and that can be

420
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: a bad thing, you know.

421
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: The good parts of it are that everyone does know everybody,

422
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: meaning that everyone's like one degree away, and so you're

423
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 1: always closer than you think to the smoking.

424
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: Gun, right.

425
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: And then also everyone knows each other, and if you

426
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 1: tell this person this, they might say this or this,

427
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: and that goes around. Or maybe these families don't like

428
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: each other, and you're getting sort of information that.

429
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 2: Isn't necessarily, you know, one hundred percent true, and you.

430
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 1: Got to be able to look at it that way

431
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 1: and be objective as a journalist, and you know, take

432
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: everything you hear with a grant assault a little bit

433
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: and do your own poking around and investigating. So Wendy,

434
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: who you heard in episode one and two, she told

435
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 1: us a story about when they were searching, she was

436
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: being followed by this truck and it really spooked her.

437
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: You can hear the genuine sound of fear in her

438
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: voice in those videos. And so she sent me those

439
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: videos and I got to see an interaction with known

440
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 1: police and it just seemed like to me, just from

441
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 1: what I watched and what she told me, and it

442
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: wasn't really being taken that seriously. And if this were

443
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: a real threat, if if if the truck that was

444
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: following them was up to no good. Then in a

445
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 1: lot of ways they put them in danger by doing that,

446
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: by not taking it seriously. And I you know again,

447
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: I analyzed the video and I don't want to put

448
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 1: out the video with the truck in it yet because

449
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: I don't want to highlight some person's vehicle that I

450
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: don't necessarily.

451
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 2: Know whose it is. But I have some ideas.

452
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: So I'm sure people are like, let me see it,

453
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 1: and I'm like, i'll show it to you later. But yes,

454
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: I found that story one terrifying.

455
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: Two.

456
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: I think that if if it if what she's implying

457
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: is true, if that is what we think it is,

458
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: then it's there's more than one person who may know

459
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 1: what happened to Florence that night. And I think that

460
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: people are trying to protect themselves. Why else would you

461
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: try to shoot them off the beach unless you didn't

462
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: want them to search the beach? Well, why didn't you

463
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: want them to search the beach? Are you just being

464
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: an asshole? Or are you trying to say stop poking

465
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: around over here? End of episode two, we learn a

466
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: name for the first time, and it's a nickname, Oregon John.

467
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: I feel like, if you've been an up and vanished

468
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: listener since the beginning. I don't know what's going on,

469
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: but Oregon John Catfish, John Bow in season one, Bow

470
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: and Dead and Gone. I don't I'm not making this up.

471
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: I'm also not even saying anything by that. I'm just

472
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: saying there have been some consistent names associated with important

473
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: players in these cases. And so we learned about this

474
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: person who goes by Oregon John, right, and as a listener,

475
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: I can assure you that we explore that to the

476
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: fullest extent. We go all the way there with it.

477
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: I think that there are other things that we're still

478
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: trying to learn right now, but it all starts to

479
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: go back to the same story. And I think that

480
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: sometimes not all the time, but a lot of times,

481
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: maybe the answer is the simplest answer. It's not some

482
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: super complicated aliens came in here.

483
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: Serial killer.

484
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: Nope, it's sometimes just exactly what it looks like. So

485
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: the structure of Talking to Death typically is that Mike

486
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: and I talk in the intros and we basically just

487
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: talk about what's going on in our personal lives and podcasts,

488
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: and we eventually get to setting.

489
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: Up our guests of the day.

490
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: So today we have an interview with one of my

491
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: good friends. She's an amazing podcaster. She's a true crime podcaster,

492
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: she's a journalist, Pulitzer Award winning. Actually, she is super talented.

493
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: She is one of the strongest voices of justice that

494
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: I know about, and she is amazing at what she does.

495
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: She works a lot in wrongful convictions. She does her

496
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: own investigative journalism and investigative podcasts like I do. She

497
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: has a podcast called Murder and Alliance, which is really good.

498
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: I highly suggest you listen to that if you haven't.

499
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: And she's just super talented, super sweet. But I sat

500
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: down with her and we talk a lot about making

501
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: true crime podcasts and sort of the journey into this

502
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: and how we both sort of cope with some of

503
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: the hard parts of this and what keeps us going

504
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: and sort of the silver lining of all this stuff.

505
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: And so it was a really interesting conversation that I

506
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: felt like I learned a lot from and I feel like.

507
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: It's a it's a good way to start.

508
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: This sort of up and vanish talking to death crossover

509
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: thing that we're doing, because she is a super super talented,

510
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: legitimate journalist who puts herself out there and really investigates

511
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: these cases, and I think that's just super admirable. So,

512
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: without further ado, here's Maggie Freeling, Maggie Pain. You're late late.

513
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: This was supposed to be a three where you were

514
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: looked pretty cool.

515
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 3: Yes, it was very fun. It was a punk show

516
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: in Bushwick, lots of people just.

517
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: In the street or something because it looked like.

518
00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 3: Like just like right in the middle of the park.

519
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: And it's really fun because kids can go. So there's

520
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: you know, like twelve year old kids hanging out at

521
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 3: a punk gig.

522
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: So that's pretty badass.

523
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 3: It's pretty fun.

524
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: So you live here, I live here, You're in my city.

525
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: I'm in your city right now. Came from Atlanta just

526
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: to see you, of course you did.

527
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: I want to talk about a whole bunch of things.

528
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: But you and I both have been doing true crime

529
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: for a long time.

530
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: You've been a journalist for years. It's it's pretty deep.

531
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: Stuff sometimes, right, it's a tough topic to navigate and

532
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: it can be emotionally difficult. How do you manage to

533
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: keep your head on straight, to keep going and do

534
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: the right thing.

535
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 3: Honestly, I think just the work itself keeps me going.

536
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: Like you know, I've been thinking a lot lately, like

537
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: what does this work do to our psyche? Right, because

538
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: we hear terrible things every day, people trauma dumping on

539
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: you all day every day, kind of like therapists.

540
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess, yeah, I.

541
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: Know that's a real term. Like I have people from

542
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 3: prison calling me, right, and it's just like, you're like,

543
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: it's a lot, you know. I answer two or three

544
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 3: prison calls a day of people just like forty years in,

545
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: what am I supposed to say to you at this point?

546
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 3: And it's like, but then when you do have the wins,

547
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: that is what keeps me going to to look forward

548
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: to another win.

549
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel I feel like, I mean, as a listener,

550
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: you may not grasp that entirely if you're just a

551
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: true crime podcast listener or something, but I feel like

552
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: for the creators and journalists who do this full time

553
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: and are pretty good at it and do amazing work,

554
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: you cannot fake it. There's got to be real compassion

555
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: there absolutely or else you're not going to be able

556
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: to get through it.

557
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 3: Well, that's the and you said the right thing. It's

558
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: like the good journalists and the good reporters and podcasters

559
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: that do this. You know, in order to connect with somebody,

560
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: you have to take on some of that emotional burden,

561
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: you know, like it is about compassion and connecting, and

562
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: how do you connect with somebody if you're not going

563
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: to have empathy with them? And so that's a lot

564
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 3: of emotions to take on.

565
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: What's been the hardest part for you so far?

566
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: The hardest part was actually when I got it wrong

567
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 3: when I did murder an alliance and I thought this

568
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: guy was innocent, and I spent two years trying to

569
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 3: get him out and we discovered that he was not innocent.

570
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: In hindsight, how do you think it happened that way?

571
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: Or why did it happen?

572
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 3: You know, it was I was really it was a

573
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: crazy case. It was a case that deserved to be

574
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 3: looked at twenty two years later. The police were absolutely corrupt,

575
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: completely botched it. It was just one of those things

576
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 3: where it's like the police department was so fucking stupid.

577
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: There was no way they could have created a multi agency,

578
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: multi person cover up, like it just wasn't going to happen, right,

579
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 3: And I felt betrayed one by this man that was

580
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 3: in prison, but by myself. I felt like I couldn't

581
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 3: trust myself after that, Like, how did I.

582
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 4: You know?

583
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: It was just I just I think I went into

584
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: it like believing in his innocence, or at least believing

585
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: there was something wrong with it, And I shouldn't have

586
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: gone into it like that, or at.

587
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: Least wanting to believe that this guy's telling you the truth.

588
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 3: I wanted to. I mean, I really liked the guy,

589
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: liked it.

590
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but maybe he did a bad thing.

591
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 3: Slit his ex pregnant ex wife's head.

592
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty bad. Yeah, it's not good.

593
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 4: Not good.

594
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: So do you think in hindsight you ever had a

595
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: moment where you may have thought, Eh, I don't know,

596
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: but at the time you had your blinders on a

597
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: little bit. And I've like it's through moments like that

598
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: that you get better at what you do, right, Like,

599
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: do you look at it that way at this point

600
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: or how do you see it?

601
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: Yeah?

602
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: No, absolutely? Like ever since then, it was like, Okay,

603
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: you know, I have this new label of like activist journalist,

604
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 3: right that was never a thing like twenty years ago.

605
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: Journalists needs to be unbiased, you know, objective, but we

606
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 3: know now there's no such thing as subjectivity. So I

607
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: have this like label of like activist journalist, which also

608
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 3: affords me the privilege of being able to connect with people.

609
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 3: And I just think, you know, I'm very empathetic and

610
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 3: I want to believe that when someone tells me something,

611
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: it's true. And so now I know, like, I'm not

612
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 3: going to make that mistake again, even if I like you,

613
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 3: even if I think you're the most innocent person on

614
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 3: the planet, I just need to not get so wrapped

615
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: up in it.

616
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's smart, and that's just it's how

617
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: you'd have to do it if you're.

618
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: Going to do the right thing right.

619
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: Well, Roles reverse, like when you went into the Tara

620
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 3: Grinstead case, Yeah, how did you What did you think

621
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: about that.

622
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: At which stage, like in the beginning.

623
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 3: I mean when you started, I guess getting like names

624
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 3: of like people that could done it. I mean Bo

625
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: and Ryan, you had their names.

626
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: I think that I went down every single person that

627
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: was a person of interest in.

628
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: Great depths, and.

629
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: There were so many things that were weird and suspicious,

630
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: but it was never fully convincing. It was just all

631
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: kind of circumstantial. You could paint it this way if

632
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: you wanted to. It doesn't look good because we don't

633
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: have the bad guys yet, and I would just kind

634
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: of toggle back and forth, and you know, learn one

635
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: thing about this person and start leaning more that way,

636
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: just like internally in my head.

637
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: And then once they announced that it.

638
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: Was somebody else entirely, it kind of actually made more sense.

639
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 2: And you know, I got a lot.

640
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: Of shit for that, but I I personally feel like,

641
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: you know, sure, I went down and explored all of

642
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: the publicly named persons of interest that had been in

643
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: the media for the past decade who knew Tara.

644
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 2: And were acquaintances of hers.

645
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: I explored all those same things in more depth, and

646
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: if anything, I think we learned that they didn't do it,

647
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: because I never learned that they did do it, And

648
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: I think that also is what helped us get to

649
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 1: the point where, hey, we were looking in the wrong place.

650
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: And if you really want to throw the salts on it,

651
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: you could also say that in two thousand and five,

652
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: they got a tip with these guys' names and they

653
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: fucking blew it. So, you know, but I also learned

654
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: a lot because I was trying to be.

655
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 2: Objective, but.

656
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 1: It wasn't that convincing to me that it was someone

657
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: totally out of this bubble here, but it was also

658
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: the only I knew to look at. But now I know, hey,

659
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: it's not always right here. Look over there there there.

660
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: There's got to be some sort of weird reason why

661
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: this thing is unsolved for all these years. If one

662
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: of these guys did it, like why didn't they find

663
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: anything yet? And in hindsight, I see it that way.

664
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: Now, well, that's like what happened with this case. I

665
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: was just talking about the reason we came to the conclusion,

666
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 3: like not that he is guilty, but that we couldn't

667
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 3: help him. There was nothing we could do because we

668
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: did a two year investigation boots on the ground and

669
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: found absolutely nothing pointing away from his guilt. No one

670
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 3: changed their story, Every witness stuck to what they said.

671
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 3: We found nothing, nothing that could help him. And it

672
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: was like like what you used like kind of in

673
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 3: like the opposite vein, like there was nothing we could

674
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 3: do to help you because we found no evidence for

675
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 3: your innocence.

676
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: Really, so over the course of two years, how did

677
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: that relationship with this person evolve?

678
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: I mean, how did it end? Did it end with?

679
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: I mean it had to have started with you know,

680
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: some sort of trust and let's go do this together vibe.

681
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: But it certainly didn't end that way, right.

682
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 3: Well, you know what I realized is someone like him

683
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 3: as a narcissist and probably many other personality disorders, so

684
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 3: he knows how to hook somebody in, how to be

685
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 3: this like charming guy. I'm wrongfully convicted, I had a kid,

686
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 3: my wife is dead, like, I'm just this lovely guy

687
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: and the world did me wrong.

688
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: So did you feel duped by him? Yeah?

689
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 3: And I put my phone call in the podcast with

690
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 3: him where I confronted him on all of this, and

691
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: that was really what solidified it for me, was confronting him,

692
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 3: Why did you lie about this? Why did you lie

693
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 3: about this? This didn't line up? Why did you omit this?

694
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: And there was no answers, There was no answers.

695
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: And then you got it was just like final answer right.

696
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: There, right, It was just like an innocent person has answers.

697
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 3: They're not going to be lying, They're not going to

698
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: be circling in circles like he was doing nothing to

699
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: help himself, to help me help him. It was just

700
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 3: I will never let that happen again, and I won't

701
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 3: be that naive to not ask certain questions right off

702
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 3: the bat.

703
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: Did you block his number?

704
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 3: He is deleted from all my JP's number JP.

705
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: I remember that. If you don't know what JPay is,

706
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 1: then what are you doing? And you're really missing out

707
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: on a new hip app where you can text prisoners.

708
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was, I learned. I've only used it,

709
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: I think, really were you messaging a few times?

710
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: But I first ever used it when I was talking

711
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: to Wayne Williams, the Atlanta child murderer.

712
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 3: And you think he did it?

713
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, he did it. Did he do all of the murders? No?

714
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: But the list was no, you liked him?

715
00:38:58,719 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 3: Yeah? Did you like him?

716
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: What do you mean I liked? I don't know.

717
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: I look, I liked this guy a lot, and he

718
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 3: was a fucking mother murderer.

719
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 2: Like I hated this guy.

720
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: You hated him.

721
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: But he was very charming and he was you know, friendly,

722
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: he was never mean, he was never but he was

723
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: so fucking annoying because was it like narcissistic, Like he

724
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: would just run the conversation so much, like I would

725
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: just blow through two hours of like I didn't even.

726
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 2: Get a word in.

727
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I had to really like think about

728
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: how I would insert myself and plot out getting him

729
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: to answer anything.

730
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 2: And I didn't have the luxury of talking to him

731
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 2: across the room.

732
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: It's on a little phone and the payphone in the

733
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: prison and oh gotta go.

734
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: It's like, oh my god.

735
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I have similar ending to my relationship

736
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: with Wayne.

737
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 2: I'm in front of him on all the things. I

738
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: just did a deeper sid in the podcast. I think

739
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 2: it's probably the last episode or.

740
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: I listened to it. I just don't remember. OK.

741
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just kind of went down all the things

742
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: that he said and just played them all back and

743
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: how they didn't add up and how they contradicted themselves,

744
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 1: and they were key points that he was saying proved

745
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: his innocence, and I felt I essentially caught him in

746
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: a lie.

747
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: And it just proves that he is a murderer.

748
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: And I think the cases he likes to talk about

749
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: are the ones that he didn't do.

750
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: He didn't do, Yeah, but he still probably killed fifteen kids.

751
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: So what are we talking about?

752
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 3: No, exactly exactly. Well, that's like you know right now,

753
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 3: with Rex Huerman, the Gilgo Beach, Long Island serial killer,

754
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 3: there was eleven bodies, ten over ten bodies, I think,

755
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 3: and he's charged with three of them, and it's like

756
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: everyone's like, oh whatever, like it's just three and I'm like, yeah,

757
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: but that's three bodies that we have now like identified

758
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: who has killed them. I don't know if you follow

759
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 3: that case. What's his name again, Rex Huerman?

760
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 1: Can we talk about something? Yeah, I mean, let's be honest.

761
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: Doesn't he look like a serial gilly?

762
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 3: Yes, he's.

763
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: I mean, if there was a look, he has it.

764
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 3: Well, I feel like the look was like it used

765
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: to be like the Dahmer Bundy look, like the glasses

766
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: and like, you know, the nerdy looking dude. And now

767
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah, Hureman was an ogre. That's what

768
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 3: the witness said. They they bungled this ten years ago

769
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 3: and she said it was an ogre.

770
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: Dude. That is there he is?

771
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: He is, Yeah, there he is.

772
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: I mean it looks like he's wearing a mask of

773
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: his face skin right, Like it's a weird.

774
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 3: Men in Black quoting men in Black today?

775
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, you said you've been quoting men in Black

776
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: today like the original time.

777
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Remember when he wears the skin suit and the

778
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 3: sugar water and coming out of it.

779
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sugar where's that guy now?

780
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: Like, I hope he's just walking the streets just going.

781
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: Traumatized.

782
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 2: Holy shit, dude, that let's stay away from that guy.

783
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

784
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: I want to kind of shift gears to some of

785
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: the other stuff you've worked on. You you did a

786
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: you did a lot of research on the Mora Murray case,

787
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: and you you had that TV show with Oxygen. Also

788
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: want to give a shout out to ten and Lance,

789
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: who did a whole bunch of work on that case.

790
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: If you could just, you know, briefly, kind of just

791
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: break down the circumstances of her disappearance in the car

792
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 1: and just how they found that she was missing.

793
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: Yes, So Maura Murray went missing in two thousand and

794
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: four in Havevioral, New Hampshire. She was driving from umss

795
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 3: Ammerst which is where I also went to college, and

796
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 3: she was driving up through the White Mountains. We have

797
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 3: no idea why she went up there. Why this young

798
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 3: college girl went up to New Hampshire by herself, randomly,

799
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 3: didn't tell anybody and crashed her car. We don't know how.

800
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 3: Maybe a snowbank, maybe ice spun out. A bus driver

801
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 3: drove by, butch Atwood saw a young woman crashed car,

802
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 3: spun out, it was turned the opposite direction. Do you

803
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 3: need help? She said, no, I called the police already.

804
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 3: She did not, in fact call the police. There was

805
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 3: no service there to call police, especially in two thousand

806
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 3: and four even now, when you're there you don't get service.

807
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 3: And by the time first responder showed up, she was gone,

808
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 3: that's it. That is that is it.

809
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:46,240
Speaker 2: So what do you think happened?

810
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 3: You know, I think there was a very shady character

811
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 3: in the house at the spot she crashed at.

812
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: Nearby, there's a house nearby right there.

813
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 3: So this is the thing. Everyone says it's super remote.

814
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 3: It was not remote. It was actually there was four

815
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 3: houses live over there. There was four houses that are

816
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 3: significantly closer than people, like closer than this okay people, right,

817
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 3: everyone's like this remote area in New Hampshire, and it's

818
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 3: like when you go up there, you're like, wait, this house, house,

819
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 3: this house. Yeah, like yes, it's New Hampshire, it's the

820
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 3: fucking Boons. But like there were houses people could see.

821
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 3: So one of the houses was this very shady guy

822
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 3: who has assorted past inserted himself into the case, specifically

823
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 3: saying she was like in his basement, like cooking him dinner,

824
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 3: just like fucking weird shit.

825
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,240
Speaker 1: Like after the crash or something or yeah yeah yeah,

826
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: like he came. He said this himself.

827
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 3: He said this to people. He'd be like, oh yeah,

828
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 3: I have more Moray in my basement, like just like

829
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 3: fucking weird.

830
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: Just a fucking psychopath or is he? I mean, why

831
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: would he say that if.

832
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 3: You really exactly? I don't know he he has. You know,

833
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 3: he's had a few restraining orders xes stalking. I mean,

834
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 3: he's not a great guy, and he's always been a

835
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 3: person of interest. We tried to talk to him in

836
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 3: the trailer of the documentary. It didn't make it into

837
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,439
Speaker 3: the documentary, but I got a high speed car chase

838
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 3: with him, ninety five miles an hour, chasing him, chasing

839
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: him in a car with Art Roderick just being like

840
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 3: Maggie Floric. I'm like Arthur, I'm not a US Marshall,

841
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 3: Like what is.

842
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: Happening right now? How did that end?

843
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 3: It ended with us pulling into like a Walmart parking lot.

844
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: I think it was like a wal Mart or target.

845
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 3: I t boned him, like straight up.

846
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: Like hit his car, no, like like hold like traps

847
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: some State Artet.

848
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 3: Now fucking us Martial Art Roderick gets out of our

849
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 3: fucking Nissan rogue that I'm driving and was like, are

850
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 3: you his name? I'm not going to say his name,

851
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 3: but are you this guy? And he was like, what

852
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 3: do you want? What do you mean? Like you must

853
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 3: you just gotten a high speed car chase with us.

854
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,479
Speaker 2: You literally were running from casually that fast.

855
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was running from us, like he knew. And

856
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 3: you know, he just said he didn't want to talk,

857
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 3: and Art said, did you get my phone calls? And

858
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: he goes, when you don't get a call back, that's me.

859
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 2: What do you mean about that?

860
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 3: You tell me of paim?

861
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: Does that mean when you don't get a call back,

862
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: that's me?

863
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes no sense exactly. So this is the

864
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 3: dealing with it or no a stupid line.

865
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 2: He's like, man, I goofed that one.

866
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 3: Tim and Lanz can send to you when Tim and

867
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 3: Lance hear this. There's a song he wrote called Groupie

868
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 3: Turned Stalker and it's him playing acoustic guitar on YouTube

869
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 3: about a groupie turn stalker. So the guy's just fucking weird. Yeah,

870
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: And it's always been like, okay, is he just a

871
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 3: weird fucking guy or it dissolved. This actually means something.

872
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel. I mean, I'm hoping that if

873
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: he came forward and said these things that could have

874
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: been admissions of guilt and a potential murder of her.

875
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: Was it investigated by the police and.

876
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 3: You're very aware of him.

877
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: What Art and I can't find anything, right, And they

878
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: didn't find a body in the basement.

879
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 3: And so when meet Tim and Land started doing the

880
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 3: ground penetrating radar, we went to his house and we

881
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 3: GPRD his house. The current owners led us and we

882
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 3: didn't find anything. But do you answer your question, I

883
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 3: think that the dogs lost her scent in front of

884
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 3: his house. I think it was very likely that he

885
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 3: was driving by and said, hey, do you want to ride?

886
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 3: And she said no to Butch and I think by

887
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 3: the time he pulled up, she realized like shit, I'm fucked,

888
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 3: like there is no service, I'm going to take this ride.

889
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 3: And I think it was probably an attempted sexual accounter

890
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 3: that she rejected and he killed her. This guy has

891
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 3: a lot of hunting property that's private that we've never

892
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 3: been able to search, right. I think that's probably what happened.

893
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it feels like to me, it's either the

894
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: butch guy, this other guy you're talking about cross or

895
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 1: for whatever reason she.

896
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: Wandered off into the woods and wasn't found.

897
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had like we just did, never believed in

898
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 3: the woods situation because why would she go into the woods.

899
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 3: She wasn't stupid.

900
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 2: How bad was the car crush?

901
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 3: Wasn't bad. The car actually could start is the scary thing.

902
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 3: She didn't know?

903
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 1: But don't wait, wasn't she already acting kind of strange

904
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 1: for like why was she going there?

905
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: Why? Right?

906
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, just thinking was she not in a

907
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: normal state in that moment and was already doing something

908
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: that was kind of That's what they both.

909
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: Thought, you know, they thought that she hit her head

910
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 3: because there was like a crack in the windshield and

911
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 3: she went into the woods. The thing was, there was

912
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: no footprints into the woods.

913
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still weird because there's like there's nothing definitive

914
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: till you know, there.

915
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 3: Was snow, so there was no footprints into the wood

916
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 3: woods by all the first responders. There's no footprints into

917
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 3: the woods. You know. The dogs there was dogs going

918
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 3: up and down. So when we talked to the state troopers,

919
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 3: search and rescue. They showed us the whole areas that

920
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 3: they did search and rescue, heat, heat radar, dogs, everything,

921
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 3: and it's just like, I don't think she was in

922
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 3: the woods. I think somebody picked her up exactly where

923
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: the dogs lost her cent and who knows where she is.

924
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 3: I've always thought the way I wanted that documentary to

925
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 3: go was art and I speak to law enforcement about

926
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 3: how law enforcement agencies in different states are not required

927
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 3: to communicate with each other. So you could have a

928
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: Jane or John Doe in one morgue, and when Vermont

929
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,919
Speaker 3: is querying, they're not querying New York, Connecticut for these

930
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 3: other Jane Doe's and John. It's just like you have

931
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 3: to make it really depends. So there's like the national system,

932
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 3: then there's the state system, and none of it is

933
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 3: particularly streamlined. So I've always believed it's possible she's a

934
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 3: Jane Doe somewhere Colorado and just no one has searched

935
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 3: for her there, I mean not more. Yeah, if you

936
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 3: watch there's a show that I love, I think it

937
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 3: was on Ide. It's called Who Killed Jane Doe? And

938
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 3: it's literally about this, like people finally figuring out like

939
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 3: a runaway from Vermont has been in Arizona in a

940
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 3: morgue for twenty years.

941
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 2: This whole time, this whole time. Wow? What? Yeah? Yeah,

942
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: incredibly frustrating case.

943
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 3: You know, it's tragic. I mean, we're approaching are we

944
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 3: at twenty years?

945
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 5: Yet?

946
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 3: We're about next year's twenty? Is it really two thousand

947
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 3: and four?

948
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: Wow?

949
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 3: February two thousand and four.

950
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: We were texting before this interview. I was like, what do

951
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: you want to talk about?

952
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 2: And then you I'm pretty sure you said it in

953
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 2: all caps or something Menendez yes.

954
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 3: And I was like, I Aliens or Menendez.

955
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like, yeah, totally totally different things. But I

956
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: guess I've been living under a rock because I didn't.

957
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 5: Know they know.

958
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 3: I was shocked.

959
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 2: I guess I had.

960
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: Seen some stuff on TikTok and Instagram, but I just

961
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: hadn't watched it all the way yet, and I just

962
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: didn't I wasn't aware that there was anything substantial that

963
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 1: was new that changed.

964
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: The narratives here huge.

965
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: So I definitely want to get into this for a

966
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 1: minute with you. Yeah, let's just kind of start with

967
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: if you don't know the Menendez case, what happened.

968
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 3: Okay, so are we the same age? I think what

969
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 3: year were you born?

970
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 2: Eighty seven?

971
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 3: Okay, so I'm eighty nine. So you were two when

972
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 3: the murders happened.

973
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 2: So Eric, I don't remember them.

974
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. So Eric and Lyle Menendez were two young boys,

975
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 3: eighteen nineteen college age. One of them might have been twenty.

976
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 3: Don't quote me, but I know they were eighteen nineteen

977
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 3: twenty something like that. Two brothers grew up in an

978
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 3: affluent family in Los Angeles. Their father, Jose Menendez, was

979
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 3: part of RCA records. You know, what people saw was this,

980
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 3: you know, high income, happy, all American dream family.

981
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 2: Right.

982
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 3: He was an immigrant and they made it here in America.

983
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty nine, the boys murdered both of their

984
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 3: parents point blank with shotguns, and when on a spending spree,

985
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 3: then were arrested. And that's really what the rest of

986
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: us know. Court TV this crazy trial of these two

987
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 3: young boys for murdering their parents, and the narrative was

988
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 3: they were spoiled, rich kids. They were mad at their

989
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 3: dad for some money, and the spending spray afterwards is

990
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 3: just because they wanted their parents' money. And that was

991
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 3: the narrative. I mean, that's what I remember growing up seeing, Like, yeah,

992
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 3: I do remember court TV and I do remember watching

993
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 3: OJ and like I just remember, you know, we were

994
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 3: five six, you were a little older, but like that's

995
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 3: that's stuck in my head. And I always remember these.

996
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: Things, their faces to me in the court room or

997
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,800
Speaker 1: kind of this iconic image in my head.

998
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 3: Argyle, sweaters. And it was awfully attentional too. But the

999
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 3: narrative was these kids cold blood murdered their parents because

1000
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 3: they're spoiled assholes, was the narrative. And we always heard

1001
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 3: about this abuse excuse, is what it was called. There

1002
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 3: was two trials. Their first trial they were acquitted and

1003
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 3: they were allowed to enter evidence of abuse.

1004
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: In the first trial, abuse by their parents.

1005
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 3: The father, so Jose Menendez, has been alleged by the

1006
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 3: boys that he was sexually abusive and abusing them up

1007
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 3: until right before the murder. Wow, And I'm not going

1008
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 3: to tell you why I believe that yet. So the

1009
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 3: first trial they were allowed to enter evidence of the

1010
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 3: abuse and they were acquitted. Trial too, the abuse evidence

1011
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 3: was not allowed in by the judge, and during trial

1012
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 3: the prosecutor called it this abuse excuse and that was

1013
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 3: the only defense they had. They didn't have a defense.

1014
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 3: They admit, yes, we point blank murdered our parents in

1015
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 3: cold blood.

1016
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 2: They did not did we did this? This is why.

1017
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 3: But this is why. However, trial too, and they were

1018
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 3: not allowed to put in a this is why the

1019
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 3: judge did not allow any abuse evidence. So they were mocked.

1020
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 3: I mean, if you go back and you watch us

1021
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 3: and l from back then they do they do this

1022
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 3: whole skit with the boys like they were. They were

1023
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 3: so demonized in the media, in the public. I mean,

1024
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 3: they did kill their parents, they killed their parents, sure,

1025
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 3: but it was more mocked that these were two boys

1026
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 3: men At the time, they were called boys. I mean,

1027
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 3: nineteen year old is a boy. I personally believe.

1028
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 2: They're definitely still they're definitely boys.

1029
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 3: They're boys.

1030
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: I mean I was a boy at nineteen.

1031
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 3: Yes, no, you're a boy at nineteen, and so you know,

1032
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 3: it was it was, that's that's what happened. So they

1033
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 3: were convicted. They were convicted. They had no defense, absolutely

1034
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 3: no defense, and they were convicted. And that's where they

1035
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 3: were until recently, a man named Roy Roussello who was

1036
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 3: in minudo and for people who don't know Minudo. They

1037
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 3: were an inredibly popular boy band, like literal boys, like

1038
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 3: fourteen year olds in the eighties from Mexico, Colombia.

1039
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 2: Okay, like Latin American artists that were like a Spanish

1040
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 2: it was.

1041
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,959
Speaker 3: It was a Spanish insanct so they were from Puerto

1042
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 3: Rico and they were a world phenomenon. Menudo back then

1043
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 3: it was like InSync Backstreet Boys before that. The world

1044
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 3: loved Mnudo. The interesting thing about Menudo is that they

1045
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 3: had to be boys so they would age out. So

1046
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,919
Speaker 3: there was a lot of members of Menudo. It wasn't

1047
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 3: just me like boys like but the time they'd turn

1048
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 3: like sixteen seventeen, it was like, okay, we're already we

1049
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 3: got to get another boy in like.

1050
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:27,280
Speaker 2: A fourteen were the same band.

1051
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 3: It was never the same band. It was never the

1052
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 3: same band. The whole thing was that they wouldn't get old,

1053
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 3: so it was like imagine Backstreet Boys, how we knew

1054
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 3: like you doesn't really every year. That was the whole

1055
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 3: like appeal of Menudo. It was just like these young

1056
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 3: boys that were always singing these like awesome pop songs.

1057
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 3: So this one boy, Roy was in Menudo during their

1058
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 3: prime and Jose Menendez was one of the record executives

1059
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 3: at RCI Records, and recently Roy Roussello has come out

1060
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 3: and said, I believe Eric and Lyle Menendez because Jose

1061
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 3: Menendez actually sexually assaulted me when I was a child

1062
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 3: in menudo. And then all these menudo boys started saying,

1063
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 3: oh yeah, no, if you were in a mudo in menudo,

1064
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 3: you were being like sexually abused by wow, Jose Menendez.

1065
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,439
Speaker 3: And there was another guy that was just as bad

1066
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 3: his partner. So that has now led us in twenty

1067
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 3: twenty three where we now know that boys can be

1068
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 3: raped and abused, because we did not believe that in

1069
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty nine boys could not be raped. So now

1070
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three, they have filed a habeas corpus petition,

1071
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 3: which is their attempt to get a new trial to

1072
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 3: present the evidence that was never allowed in back in

1073
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four.

1074
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: And so if they are able to pull this off

1075
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: and enter this new evidence, because they still did kill

1076
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: their parents and this was they've been admitted to that,

1077
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: how does it change the consequences.

1078
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 3: So basically, if this evidence was allowed in back then

1079
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 3: they wouldn't have had a murder first degree charge.

1080
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 2: Okaylaughter charge.

1081
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 3: It would have been a manslaughter charge. Ok Because significantly different,

1082
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 3: significantly different. There's mitigating circumstances. Okay. These boys like the

1083
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,479
Speaker 3: abuse that they went through, and I'm blanking on which

1084
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 3: brother was specifically the one that was abused, because one

1085
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 3: of them was very, very badly abused. They they would

1086
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 3: have been able to add that as a defense. Like

1087
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 3: his his father. One of the main things that they

1088
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 3: found out right before the murder was that one of

1089
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 3: the brothers was supposed to be able to go to

1090
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 3: college and that was his escape from this abusive home,

1091
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 3: to be out of this, to get out. He was

1092
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 3: supposed to be allowed to go to kay, got accepted

1093
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 3: somewhere in California. He was going to get out of

1094
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 3: La get out of his parents' house, and his dad said,

1095
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 3: you're not going You're staying here. Like his dad still

1096
00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 3: wanted to control and abuse him. So we know that

1097
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 3: this abuse was happening up until he was abusing his

1098
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 3: eighteen year old son. Like these boys were so fucked

1099
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 3: up from children to quote adulthood. They had just found

1100
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 3: out that their mother knew and did nothing for years,

1101
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 3: for years she knew this was happening. It has come

1102
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 3: out all of this was in the first trial that

1103
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 3: people that went to the house knew if jose is

1104
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 3: in the room with the boys, don't go back there,

1105
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 3: don't go back there, like really gross shit. And then

1106
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 3: one of the pieces of evidence, So this is the

1107
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 3: crux of the habeas corpus. With a habeas corpus, it's

1108
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 3: an appeal, but you have to put in new evidence.

1109
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 3: So the evidence could not have been litigated before they

1110
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 3: did have abuse litigated and they were acquitted. It turns

1111
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 3: out that one of the cousins, one of the boys cousins,

1112
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 3: had a letter written from them, one of them again

1113
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 3: I'm blanking on which brother from eight months before the murder,

1114
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 3: saying my dad is he It says, my dad is

1115
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 3: so fat it grosses, like it's gross every time he

1116
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 3: comes near me, Like I'm disgusted, Like it's gotten so bad,

1117
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 3: Like you don't I think the cousin was Andrew. He's like,

1118
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 3: Andrew's gotten so bad, you don't know, Like every night

1119
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 3: I wake up thinking is he going to be in here?

1120
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 3: Like very clearly telling his cousin.

1121
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: Before the abuse excuse concepts the months before the so

1122
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: kind of validates that.

1123
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is a letter that they're now using

1124
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: to validate the abuse. Of course there's menudo boys validating

1125
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 3: the abuse. So I think they have a really good

1126
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 3: chance of actually getting out of prison because if it

1127
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 3: was a manslaughter charge, they've done thirty three years. They

1128
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 3: wouldn't have done thirty three years with a manslaughter charge, right,

1129
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 3: so they should have time served.

1130
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: It's such a weird thing. It's like a just a

1131
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: strange scenario for me. I mean, love my dad, love

1132
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: my parents, but dad, sorry, if you abuse me for

1133
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 1: my whole life, I would definitely kill you two yes,

1134
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: but I would also assume that there was going to

1135
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 1: be some consequences for that.

1136
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 3: And that's the thing. There's no one saying there shouldn't

1137
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 3: be consequences.

1138
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: But it's like, what is your opinion on that? You know,

1139
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: just well I think you know, I just that happened

1140
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: to me in like you know an slaughter is well,

1141
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: we don't know.

1142
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 3: We you know what it didn't. I haven't been abused

1143
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 3: since I was a child. There is a photo of

1144
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 3: Jose Menendez with the boys sitting on his lap like children,

1145
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 3: like five six years old. Yeah, and his hand is

1146
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 3: in the crotch of one of the boys, and the

1147
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 3: boy just he just looks so.

1148
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 2: Vacant.

1149
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 3: From six years old, this boy all he knew was

1150
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 3: my dad, is like he this is one of the

1151
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 3: things that they knew. What made it really valid is

1152
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 3: an aunt one time saw him one of the boys

1153
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 3: eating lemons and she's like, why are you eating lemons?

1154
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 3: Like randomly, and he was like, because it gets rid

1155
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 3: of the taste from dad in my mouth. What child

1156
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: knows to do that? Like they were raped by their father.

1157
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 2: That is horrible, Yes.

1158
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 3: It's horrible, and like to think of what they went

1159
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 3: through and then to go back and think of when

1160
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 3: we were kids and seeing all this like mockery of

1161
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 3: them on SNL, Like really go back and watch that SNL.

1162
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 3: They were destroyed in the media.

1163
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely their lives. That's how I remember them.

1164
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: But I don't even remember them because just from the

1165
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 1: Zeitgeiste of the whole thing.

1166
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 3: Spoiled rich kids and you know what the spending spree,

1167
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 3: they were like, we were finally free. We just wanted

1168
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 3: to like it was you know, I can't speak to

1169
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 3: what it's like to be abused for nineteen years and

1170
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 3: then when you're finally free what I would do, Like,

1171
01:02:58,040 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1172
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: I just thought of have you seen the movie Cable Guy,

1173
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 1: do you know with Jim.

1174
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 3: Carrey, Yeah, like about oh yeah, of course.

1175
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: They're in the like in the background of that whole plot.

1176
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: I think it's in the beginning, middle end on the TV.

1177
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 1: Is Ben Stiller?

1178
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 2: Right? I think I think it's Ben.

1179
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 1: Stiller, who I believe directed it. In the courtroom in

1180
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: like this twin brother.

1181
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 3: Oh my god, yeah.

1182
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 2: Definitely drawn from the Menindez case. Yeah, it has to be.

1183
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 2: It has to be summertime period.

1184
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it was pretty funny the way they did it,

1185
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: but just shows you, I guess how big it was

1186
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: at the time and how much they were painted as

1187
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 1: what right.

1188
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 3: It was, and and you know when we talk about

1189
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 3: like the rise of true crime, I mean that was

1190
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 3: Court TV. That that was nineteen ninety four, was like

1191
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 3: prime time Court TV. It was OJ, it was the

1192
01:03:56,160 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 3: Menendez brothers, John benet Ramsey like that was yeah the time.

1193
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 3: And you know, it's so interesting for people to remember

1194
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 3: all of that and now have to, you know, thirty

1195
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 3: something years later, create a new narrative like actually, they're

1196
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 3: not these evil monsters that we cold blooded fucking monsters

1197
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 3: that we thought they were. They were actually horribly abused

1198
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 3: children that did not see any way out. Dad just

1199
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 3: told me, I can't go to college, I can't go anywhere.

1200
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 3: I'm stuck here with this man that's abused to me

1201
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 3: my whole life.

1202
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 1: And they can't kill their parents again. So right, I mean,

1203
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: I think and that's clearly what it was.

1204
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 2: Messed up.

1205
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 3: No, it is. And you know, I think everyone should

1206
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 3: watch Minudo Verse Menendez, and I think everyone should really

1207
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 3: think about you know what I think we think about

1208
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 3: it more abuse. But these things that jurors, what they

1209
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 3: get to see and trial and what they don't is

1210
01:04:58,120 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 3: very interesting.

1211
01:04:58,920 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1212
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 3: And it can show everything, yeah, everything.

1213
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 1: And you can see it just quite literally in this situation,

1214
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 1: this trial, in that trial, you left this part out and.

1215
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 3: Well the first one they were acquitted, Yeah, right, because

1216
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 3: they were allowed to have the abuse evidence. If this

1217
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 3: and that's the whole thing. If this happened today, they

1218
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 3: would not have There's no way they would have been

1219
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 3: out in ten years. They would have done their time

1220
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 3: and like hopefully gotten therapy, hopefully gotten help and gotten

1221
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 3: out in been productive members of society.

1222
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 1: In true crime as a genre of podcasts, TV shows,

1223
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 1: documentaries in today's age, How do you want to see

1224
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: it evolve from here? Any strong feelings about where it

1225
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 1: should go or what should stop or there should be

1226
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 1: more of or I don't know.

1227
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 3: I mean it's such an interesting thing, right, because you

1228
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 3: have shows that do one offs like every week or

1229
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 3: like every day. I don't know, like their shows like Disappeared,

1230
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 3: like Cruise Ship Killers, which is one of my favorites

1231
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 3: right now. But like, you know, there are those shows

1232
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 3: that are are silacious and that a lot of people

1233
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 3: would consider, you know, like trashy.

1234
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: What what do you consider silacious? You don't have to

1235
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: call anybody out. I'm just saying, like, what, what what

1236
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: does it sound like to you?

1237
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 3: I'll tell you it's a show that I actually like.

1238
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 3: But Nightmare next Door, right, Okay, if you ever watch

1239
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 3: it on ID and it's just like, you know, the

1240
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 3: whole thing is like and then they were having an affair,

1241
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 3: did you netlib that's pot yeah, like and then he

1242
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:46,919
Speaker 3: like cut her throat during this, Like the whole thing

1243
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 3: it's just like weird like puns and I'm just like, yeah,

1244
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 3: that's sillacious, right, But at the same time. I think

1245
01:06:55,800 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 3: the reason true crime is so popular with women, and

1246
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 3: this is I think I've gone back and psychologically analyzed

1247
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 3: why I was watching ID from like twelve years old

1248
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 3: to now, right, is I think that women watch true

1249
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 3: crime to learn how to not be victims. Actually, so, yes,

1250
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 3: these shows are kind of salacious, but I feel like

1251
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 3: the more you watch like what happened to people, sometimes

1252
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 3: you learn how to not be that victim, and you

1253
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 3: can you can learn patterns like Okay, I've seen so

1254
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 3: much of this, Like do you not feel from watching

1255
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 3: true crime and listening to so much of it that

1256
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 3: you feel like you've learned things?

1257
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:34,479
Speaker 2: You've sure?

1258
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean you've been introduced to scenarios that you

1259
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 1: didn't think could have existed before, or you know, sure

1260
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:46,959
Speaker 1: or unlocked some new fears right many.

1261
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 3: But I do think I do think that women watch

1262
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 3: true crime to learn how to not be victims. And

1263
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 3: I think you know, a lot of shows are made entertainingly,

1264
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 3: that's the business, so like you know, there's the salacious shows.

1265
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 3: Your question was, where do I want to see it go?

1266
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 3: I want to just see it be more compassionate. I

1267
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 3: think I think there's a big problem with people parachuting

1268
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 3: in trying to make a buck and leaving. I think,

1269
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 3: going back to why I have this title as like

1270
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,240
Speaker 3: an activist journalist is because I don't just use people

1271
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 3: as sources. I build relationships, which is not something you're

1272
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,560
Speaker 3: supposed to do as a journalist. I'm not supposed to

1273
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:30,679
Speaker 3: have emotions with these people.

1274
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that. I think we're past that now,

1275
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: That's what I mean. Moving You're not supposed to do it.

1276
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: I think that you don't have to do it if

1277
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: you're a journalist. I think sometimes if you do it,

1278
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 1: it can mess things up, and if you don't do

1279
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: it can mess things up.

1280
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 3: There's the thing. You have to know how to do it,

1281
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 3: and you have to be skilled, and you have to

1282
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 3: be trained.

1283
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:50,799
Speaker 2: Yes, And.

1284
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 3: I think that's another thing is don't get me started

1285
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 3: on people that are not journalists.

1286
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 2: That I'm definitely not sure.

1287
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 3: It's interesting because your bio does say like you're like

1288
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 3: an investigative podcast. It says something like that, but I

1289
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 3: think you are. Though it doesn't mean you have to

1290
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,640
Speaker 3: have a degree. You've done this for so long that

1291
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:17,680
Speaker 3: you we were just talking about this before. Everything that

1292
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 3: you've learned from doing this for so long, like you

1293
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:23,839
Speaker 3: are skilled and trained, and we have made mistakes.

1294
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:27,560
Speaker 1: Maybe now from all the work that I've done, I

1295
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 1: remember quite vividly in twenty sixteen.

1296
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 3: I mean, twenty sixteen was a bad year for me,

1297
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:36,280
Speaker 3: was it. I mean that was where when I started

1298
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 3: doing the more Murray stuff, Like I fucked up a

1299
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 3: lot of that. I was a child, Like that was

1300
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:41,839
Speaker 3: so long ago.

1301
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 2: It's so long ago. That's when I realized, Wow, the

1302
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 2: Internet is really mean.

1303
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was one of those mean Internet people

1304
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 3: to you. I'm sorry, No, I wasn't on the internet.

1305
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 2: I do you like you? What?

1306
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 3: I just didn't like you. I think I was jealous.

1307
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 3: I think I was like, look at this motherfucker like

1308
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 3: doing all this shit. I'm doing the same ship and

1309
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 3: like he's like doing better.

1310
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 2: That's it, Yeah, him doing his thing that I'm doing.

1311
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:09,679
Speaker 3: Like look at this fucking white guy man just Marin

1312
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 3: doing his thing like I'm doing that.

1313
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm doing it, you know, Like no, like try your

1314
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: best to imagine back and and like, trust me, I'm

1315
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 1: not gonna be offended. I would probably be like look

1316
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 1: at this motherfucker too. I'd be like this guy this,

1317
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:29,560
Speaker 1: who does he think he is. I can fundamentally understand.

1318
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:30,799
Speaker 3: That, Oh that's that's what I thought.

1319
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 2: You thought what I did?

1320
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 3: I thought that I was like, who the fuck is this?

1321
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 3: Who's this fucking guy?

1322
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:42,520
Speaker 2: And how did it change then? Which is my own curiosity.

1323
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 3: I know when did it change that I decided I

1324
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 3: didn't hate you.

1325
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 2: This morning this It was probably this morning.

1326
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:51,880
Speaker 3: We'll get this morning like this guy, I guess I

1327
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 3: don't hate him. No, we hung out. Maybe it was

1328
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 3: a crime con or something, yeah, because I remember you

1329
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 3: were doing you started then you started sponsoring crime con.

1330
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,759
Speaker 3: I was like, this fucking motherfucker.

1331
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 2: Think you can spont or stuff just looking at.

1332
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 3: Me in his fucking money, just like he's successful too.

1333
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 3: Like I can admit that now. It probably was like

1334
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 3: some sort of jealousy, just like some sort of like whatever.

1335
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 3: But you know what, when I met you, I cannot

1336
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 3: remember where we actually met and hung out, but I

1337
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 3: was like.

1338
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 2: It's probably a crime con or something.

1339
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:30,519
Speaker 3: It probably was con, but I was like, this person

1340
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,439
Speaker 3: is not the person that I thought you were. You're

1341
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 3: just so nice and genuine. I was like, this is

1342
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 3: not the douche that he portrays himself to be at all.

1343
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 2: I got your You tricked me.

1344
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:44,680
Speaker 3: I thought you were a douche.

1345
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 2: No, I thought I'm actually a douche. Yeah, I think

1346
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 2: I will.

1347
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 3: I know you well enough now that I'm like, you're

1348
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 3: absolutely not a douche, like you're not a do Thank you.

1349
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 2: I appreciate that.

1350
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 1: I think what you didn't realize is that I mean,

1351
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure it looked optically annoying in some instances, but

1352
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: really inside I'm like, god, dude, I'm I'm dying in here.

1353
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:08,640
Speaker 1: This is I don't know what, I don't know what.

1354
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,599
Speaker 1: I'm doing this so hard. It's like, don't be jealous,

1355
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 1: this is really hard.

1356
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was like I'm in over my head. This

1357
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 2: is crazy. Just go work.

1358
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,880
Speaker 3: Well, you you went from just like doing this podcast.

1359
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 3: I remember you were like a documentary filmmaker that starts

1360
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 3: doing a podcast and the next thing, you know, you

1361
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 3: like blow up, Like how do you Yeah, that's overwhelming,

1362
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 3: that's fucking overwhelming.

1363
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:38,600
Speaker 1: It was weird, but I also was from a creators standpoint,

1364
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:44,679
Speaker 1: from a freelance filmmaker music video director at the time,

1365
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 1: I was like, I am not letting go of these horns.

1366
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 1: This is like, no matter what it takes, I'm riding

1367
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 1: this and it just so happened that the ride I

1368
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 1: was getting on and is one of the craziest ones

1369
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 1: you can get on poking around an unsolved murder case.

1370
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:07,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, it's fucking crazy.

1371
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I learned a lot about myself, I

1372
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,920
Speaker 1: think through that through and other people too.

1373
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1374
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's a it's a really how much of har

1375
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 3: I was you know, it's a it's a crazy it's

1376
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 3: a weird industry.

1377
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 2: Now, I do remember.

1378
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 1: I mean, if you just even google Payne Lindsay read it,

1379
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 1: you're gonna do it.

1380
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 2: I already know there's there's plenty for you to take it.

1381
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 3: I mean, there's enough terrible ship about me on read

1382
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 3: I literally like, I'm like, please never start.

1383
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 1: You're probably right, there's but there's a lot and like

1384
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 1: I've seen it evolve from this thing where they don't

1385
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:52,240
Speaker 1: even really know why anymore they hate me.

1386
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 2: And I'm like, but you know, because that one time

1387
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,799
Speaker 2: you just you know what, I'm like, No, I don't.

1388
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 3: It's the weirdest thing to do your job, right, Like, like.

1389
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 1: I could make you hate me for really like actually no,

1390
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 1: exact same something right now, and in fins you would

1391
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:14,640
Speaker 1: be like, oh see, yes, but I really tried not

1392
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:15,320
Speaker 1: to do that.

1393
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:16,560
Speaker 4: No, exactly.

1394
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 3: Off it's crazy to just like do your job like

1395
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 3: And that's why I think these conventions are very weird

1396
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 3: for me, right, because it's like, I'm a journalist. Journalists

1397
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 3: aren't celebrities, Like I never intended Maggie Freeling. Nancy Grace well,

1398
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:35,600
Speaker 3: I guess she was a prosecutor.

1399
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:39,720
Speaker 2: Just got a celebrity now, but like so.

1400
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 3: Interesting Cooper celebrity journalist, right, But like I never went

1401
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:44,879
Speaker 3: into this business to be a celebrity.

1402
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm.

1403
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 3: Doing my job. I'm reporting. Yeah, So I'm like, it's

1404
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 3: weird to me when people want to like take pictures

1405
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 3: with me and like meet me and it's really cool.

1406
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 3: Like I'm not complaining, it's just like a it's like.

1407
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 2: A you're not an actress, You're not exactly.

1408
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 3: I think we live in a very interesting limbo. That's

1409
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 3: how I feel. It's somewhere between, like in this world

1410
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 3: of true crime, it's somewhere between like celebrity and like professional.

1411
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I don't know how to exist, honestly.

1412
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 1: And I think that because I used to be a

1413
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: music artist.

1414
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 2: Actually I was.

1415
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 3: I have like this video online that we've all seen.

1416
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 2: No, there's a couple, there's a couple.

1417
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 1: There's more than a couple, but I've only seen one

1418
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:38,639
Speaker 1: that was like my mentality for my early twenties.

1419
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:39,719
Speaker 2: I was an artist.

1420
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 1: I viewed myself that way, and so it's kind of

1421
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 1: just been ingrained in just the way I am as

1422
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 1: a creator, and it's woven itself a little bit into

1423
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 1: I guess my presentation as a journalist, but that I

1424
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: leave at the door when I'm actually doing.

1425
01:15:56,439 --> 01:15:58,840
Speaker 3: Okay, so you are calling yourself a journalist.

1426
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 2: I'm sure that I can see that.

1427
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:05,000
Speaker 1: There's probably a little bit of a hint of that

1428
01:16:05,439 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 1: in the air.

1429
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:12,719
Speaker 2: But it's it's so not deep. It's it's like caveman brain.

1430
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:16,600
Speaker 1: Like that looks cool, let's post that, like it's seriously

1431
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 1: the least deep thing. But I could see how someone

1432
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:22,920
Speaker 1: could perceive it as some narcissistic thing.

1433
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 2: It's like it it isn't, but whatever.

1434
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:28,320
Speaker 3: What are you gonna do?

1435
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 2: Yeah it isn't, but yeah.

1436
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 1: But I've learned a lot just through that, And I

1437
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 1: was like, you know, what fuck it like? And you

1438
01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 1: have two Instagrams for that reason.

1439
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:37,920
Speaker 3: I have two instagrams.

1440
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not gonna say what your other one is.

1441
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 3: No, don't say what my other one is. I'm not,

1442
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 3: but you're an actual friend, so you get that instagram.

1443
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 2: I know.

1444
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 1: I wish I did that now I guess it's not

1445
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: too late. But I'm like, I don't even feel like

1446
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 1: doing both, Like one is annoying.

1447
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 3: It's really annoying. I don't my professional one. I actually

1448
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 3: don't use I have a friend do it because I

1449
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:00,600
Speaker 3: can't get sometimes that you have to know and I

1450
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:02,960
Speaker 3: can't use the other one. I fucking go on. I'm like,

1451
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 3: I don't my friend just posts for me just to

1452
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,240
Speaker 3: like engage, like I just did it. I don't like

1453
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 3: social media. I'm not a social media person at all,

1454
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:12,120
Speaker 3: zero percent.

1455
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:16,120
Speaker 1: There's a level of toxicity at some point where it's

1456
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 1: not good for your head.

1457
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 3: No, I like going on it when like, here's the thing.

1458
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,599
Speaker 3: I like TikTok because I don't follow a single friend

1459
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,040
Speaker 3: on TikTok. I don't follow work people on TikTok. What

1460
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:31,559
Speaker 3: I follow is like alien conspiracy accounts, like you know,

1461
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 3: wild ass conspiracy accounts. That's what I follow on my TikTok.

1462
01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 3: It's like that's what I want to see. I don't

1463
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:39,639
Speaker 3: want to see my friend's baby.

1464
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 2: What's on your TikTok, Mike?

1465
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah? What accounts do I need to be following now?

1466
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:49,439
Speaker 1: I'm sure yours is riddled with that and probably guitars

1467
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: or something. Right, Yeah, we should, we need to post more.

1468
01:17:57,439 --> 01:17:59,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, we need a lot of social media.

1469
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:00,719
Speaker 2: Do TikTok.

1470
01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:02,720
Speaker 3: No, I'm really stupid with social media.

1471
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll post on TikTok, but I can't. I don't.

1472
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:10,519
Speaker 2: I feel too out of control of it.

1473
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 3: It feels very out of control.

1474
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,639
Speaker 1: I even down to just the presentation of I want

1475
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 1: to see it within a box.

1476
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:17,679
Speaker 3: It feels like chaos.

1477
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 2: I don't want it to be my whole phone. And

1478
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, holy ship, and I'm like, well.

1479
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 3: They finally just made the fucking thing where you don't

1480
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:26,760
Speaker 3: open it and it like it's screaming at you and

1481
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 3: it's like, oh.

1482
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 1: Watch and follow. Yeah, I'm like, absolutely not. I don't

1483
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 1: even want to.

1484
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 3: Watch and follow.

1485
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 1: Well, this has been a blast, and thank you for

1486
01:18:39,439 --> 01:18:41,160
Speaker 1: making the time, and I'm glad we got to do

1487
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: it in person and I'll.

1488
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 2: See you soon.

1489
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 1: It obsessedst cool have already happened when this comes out,

1490
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 1: so so when we get in the fight there, you

1491
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:57,679
Speaker 1: know I'm already I'm sorry in advance, all right good.

1492
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:03,000
Speaker 4: Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and

1493
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:07,880
Speaker 4: iHeart Podcasts, created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenorfoot TV,

1494
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 4: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive

1495
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:16,680
Speaker 4: producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are

1496
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,559
Speaker 4: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup

1497
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:24,719
Speaker 4: and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,

1498
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:29,519
Speaker 4: Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Coohedo. Production

1499
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 4: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing

1500
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:37,639
Speaker 4: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover

1501
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:41,440
Speaker 4: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website

1502
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:49,839
Speaker 4: Talking to Death podcast dot com.

1503
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and here's an exclusive sneak peek of

1504
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 1: the brand new season of Up and Vanished. Tune in

1505
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:59,559
Speaker 1: to Up and Vanished every Friday starting February sixteenth for

1506
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:00,520
Speaker 1: the full EF episodes.

1507
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:06,920
Speaker 2: Is the Police Chief in Today?

1508
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 5: Oh Year is out?

1509
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:11,719
Speaker 2: The office this week. Folks here, what're burdy?

1510
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:18,920
Speaker 1: We are journalists from Atlanta and we're here to discuss

1511
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:20,280
Speaker 1: some missing persons cases.

1512
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 2: Please hold, hey doing? Hey, hey, nice nicely? Maja.

1513
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:34,600
Speaker 1: Is there a chance we can do tomorrow potentially?

1514
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 2: Okay? If we can get.

1515
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:38,920
Speaker 3: Something tomorrow and that would I be moren't happy to

1516
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 3: sit down with you, guys. I just if I've got

1517
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:43,040
Speaker 3: administrative stuff, I gotta wrap up here.

1518
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 2: What what what time would work best for you, guys?

1519
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:51,479
Speaker 1: I mean really, anytime tomorrow be okay? Is earlier midday

1520
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 1: better for you?

1521
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:52,880
Speaker 5: Probably?

1522
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:54,920
Speaker 1: Let's let's shoot for earlier in the morning.

1523
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 4: You know, we'll talk then and then we'll make a decision.

1524
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:01,559
Speaker 4: I know you guys are out of Atlanta for some

1525
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 4: kind of hot gas.

1526
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so just call a station or awesome. Thanks

1527
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 2: again me. I appreciate it.

1528
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:15,760
Speaker 6: No, please try I can help you.

1529
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:18,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm calling for Deputy Chief Crockett.

1530
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 6: The miss who's calling?

1531
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:24,200
Speaker 2: What is hurting? This is Payne Lindsay. I'm a journalist

1532
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:24,799
Speaker 2: from Atlanta.

1533
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 1: I spoke with him yesterday briefly about possibly meeting today.

1534
01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:39,120
Speaker 6: Give me one chake of please, sure, thanks for holding.

1535
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 6: I appreciate that he is unavailable for the rest of

1536
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:43,439
Speaker 6: the cold to take a message.

1537
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:44,800
Speaker 2: Is he not there?

1538
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 6: I wasn't able to reach it. I'm not sure what

1539
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 6: he's got going on right now.

1540
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:53,080
Speaker 2: Okay, do you know when he might be in again?

1541
01:21:55,240 --> 01:21:57,120
Speaker 6: I'm not sure. If you'd like, you can check call

1542
01:21:57,200 --> 01:21:57,879
Speaker 6: him back tomorrow.

1543
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

1544
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you

1545
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:14,559
Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe

1546
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:18,800
Speaker 1: to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus

1547
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:22,719
Speaker 1: dot com.