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Speaker 1: Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all you

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Speaker 1: can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in

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Speaker 1: use code film spot twenty six to receive fifteen percent off.

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Speaker 2: It is another Film Spotting Archive drop, and with Valentine's

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Speaker 2: Day just upon us here, Josh, we thought, why not

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Speaker 2: check out some of the most romantic films that we've

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Speaker 2: talked about in the Film Spotting Archive. Fair number of

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Speaker 2: good ones to talk about, but then producer Sam had

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Speaker 2: a good idea, put a little twist on it. What

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Speaker 2: about the ones that have all been Best Picture winners

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Speaker 2: leading up to the Oscars? So we thought, okay, let's

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Speaker 2: go back. Let's go back, maybe to the most romantic

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Speaker 2: of them all. Casablanca.

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Speaker 3: Not a bad choice Casablanca. This is from March twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 3: I missed out on this review, Adam. It was you,

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Speaker 3: Michael Phillips, film prof Catherine Fusco.

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Speaker 4: So he got academic on you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just kind of making making me feel left out.

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Speaker 3: Casablanca also in my mind though, because we are on

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Speaker 3: this Friday show going to be nominating our candidates for

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Speaker 3: the Film Spotting Pantheon for twenty twenty six, and Casablanca

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Speaker 3: was in the.

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Speaker 5: Mix for me.

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Speaker 3: We'll see, we'll see if it made it. Listeners will

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Speaker 3: find out when they listened to the show if it

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Speaker 3: was one of those that I put in the mix.

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Speaker 3: But definitely deserves consideration for the Pantheon, and obviously for

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Speaker 3: this twenty seventeen review as well.

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Speaker 2: And not to make everyone's brain short circuit, but if

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Speaker 2: it did make your list, Josh, they'd have to listen

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Speaker 2: to find out whether or not it was a sacred

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Speaker 2: cow title because obviously it got a sacred cow discussion,

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Speaker 2: or whether it was a wild card because you didn't

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Speaker 2: talk about it with me and the whole exactly this

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Speaker 2: Pantheon project exactly, we talk about the movies together. So

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Speaker 2: Casablanca is a really tricky one.

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Speaker 3: I may have found a loophole. We'll have to wait

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Speaker 3: until Friday to see. But for now, for now, from

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Speaker 3: March twenty seventeen, here is that review of Casablanca.

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Speaker 5: Well, you are asking about Rick, and.

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Speaker 6: Here he is.

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Speaker 7: Mademoiselle Mary present Illo reck, Oh you've already met.

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Speaker 5: Rick pant Brazil.

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Speaker 7: Well, then perhaps you won't serve christ Lasla. How do

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Speaker 7: you do? How do you do? When he has a

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Speaker 7: great deal about Ricky and Casablanca, not about Victor Lazlow everywhere.

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Speaker 8: So anticipating the show we're going to do right now, Adam,

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Speaker 8: about Casablanca and whether or not it's still the movie

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Speaker 8: that it used to be for a lot of people.

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Speaker 5: Maybe still is for an awful lot of it.

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Speaker 8: Last week, the Society for Cinema and Media Studies gathered

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Speaker 8: in Chicago for its annual conference. And that is one

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Speaker 8: hell of a lot of movie geeks in one town

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Speaker 8: at one time. Let me tell you, hundreds of scholars, academics,

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Speaker 8: specialists of all kinds. They gather, They give talks every

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Speaker 8: imaginable subject, and I caught a couple of them last week.

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Speaker 8: One of them was called Complex Figures in Classic Hollywood,

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Speaker 8: and it featured a film and literature professor from the

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Speaker 8: University of Nevada Reno named Katherine Fusco. Well, Fusco gives

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Speaker 8: this great twenty minute talk on Shirley Temple's profoundly disturbing

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Speaker 8: early movie career in what we're known as baby burlesques.

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Speaker 8: These sort of precursors to Bugsy Malone, right, and this

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Speaker 8: creepy and very kind of like bizarre sexual undercurrents, sort

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Speaker 8: of astonishing stuff. Anybody with an interest in old Hollywood,

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Speaker 8: who can give you twenty new things in the space

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Speaker 8: of twenty minutes to think about? Regarding Shirley Temple subject

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Speaker 8: I know nothing about. Okay with me, So Adam and

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Speaker 8: I are happy to have Catherine Fusco join us from

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Speaker 8: Reno to talk about this question, this monument, this movie

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Speaker 8: known as Casablanca.

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Speaker 5: Catherine, thanks for being on.

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Speaker 6: Sure, I'm really happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: Hi film spotting, Hello, Thank you, Catherine.

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Speaker 8: Okay, So Casablanca turned seventy five this year, and it's

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Speaker 8: either ageless or it's very much showing its age, depending

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Speaker 8: on which pundit or film critic or cultural observer you're

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Speaker 8: reading at the time. The Warner Brothers movie premiered in

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Speaker 8: late nineteen forty two, but went into general release early

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Speaker 8: nineteen forty three, and with the Allies invading North Africa,

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Speaker 8: the movie felt like the morning news right up there

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Speaker 8: on the screen. Humphrey Bogart is the idealistic but cynical

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Speaker 8: American hiding out Morocco goes from attractive isolationist. I stick

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Speaker 8: my neck out for nobody, he says twice in the

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Speaker 8: first twenty minutes, to committed patriotic man of action. His

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Speaker 8: love for Ingrid Bergmann, who's hooked up with the resistance

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Speaker 8: war hero played by Paul Henried, is sacrificed.

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Speaker 5: For the greater good.

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Speaker 8: This movie won the Oscar for Best Picture, and it

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Speaker 8: is a lot of people's favorite Hollywood movie. Woody Allen

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Speaker 8: wrote a play and later a movie called Play It

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Speaker 8: Against Sam about a guy hopelessly measuring himself against Bogie's image.

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Speaker 8: I mean, you look at Jean Lucadar's Breathless that's entirely

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Speaker 8: devoted to Bogie.

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Speaker 5: You got you know what.

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Speaker 8: It's one of the most revered and satirized romantic dramas

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Speaker 8: in cinema history. Several books have been written about Casablanca's

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Speaker 8: place in the culture, and most recently that includes Noah

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Speaker 8: Eisenberg's Will Always Have Casablanca. And Yet and Yet a

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Speaker 8: lot of people think it's basically no longer ready for

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Speaker 8: its close up. In a recent Slate piece on the

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Speaker 8: book and the film, Laura Miller notes that Sight and

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Speaker 8: Sound magazine did a twenty thirteen poll of the fifty

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Speaker 8: greatest films of all time, Casablanca, directed by Michael Curtese,

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Speaker 8: did not make the cut, and she says this, what's

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Speaker 8: changed about Casablanca is the most powerful and intangible element

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Speaker 8: in any work of popular culture, its ability to make

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Speaker 8: each audience member feel this is about me, about who

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Speaker 8: I am, but most of all, who I want to be.

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Speaker 8: And she says this to America still underestimates the degree

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Speaker 8: to which the Second World War casts a long shadow

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Speaker 8: over the last half of the twentieth century. That shadow

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Speaker 8: has mostly subsided, and the radiant dreams that consoled us

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Speaker 8: as we walked through, while still worth revisiting, now seem

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Speaker 8: less captivating and necessary. Adam, Catherine will start with you, Catherine,

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Speaker 8: Will we always have Casablanca?

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Speaker 5: Or is it sort of.

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Speaker 8: Getting lost in the mists of time, the same mist

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Speaker 8: we see Bogart and Claude Rain strolling through in the

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Speaker 8: last few seconds of the film itself.

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Speaker 5: That's question. Yeah, we just have twenty seconds. We just

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Speaker 5: have twenty seconds for it.

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Speaker 6: Shoot, you know, I was watching the film again yesterday

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Speaker 6: to prepare and I actually got a little nervous about

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Speaker 6: me on the podcast, and I thought, oh, well, maybe

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Speaker 6: I should just watch every kind of great classic film.

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Speaker 6: So I rewatched Citizen Kane the day before, and you know,

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Speaker 6: I was thinking about that, you know, Cain as great,

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Speaker 6: Casablanca as beloved kind of thing, and for me, I

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Speaker 6: feel like Casablanca is this sort of gateway drug, but

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Speaker 6: it's such a wonderful gateway drug, right to kind of

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Speaker 6: get get people in. So you know, I'm all about

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Speaker 6: the gateway drug here, you know, whether it's not maybe

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Speaker 6: as heady as Citizen Kane, right, it really just gives

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Speaker 6: you that kind of gut punch. But I was also

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Speaker 6: thinking about those sort of relevance now in the Laura

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Speaker 6: Miller article, right, she's talking about how young men identified

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Speaker 6: with this kind of cynic and less so with the

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Speaker 6: more sincere rick that we get by the end. And

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Speaker 6: I was just thinking, man, you know, we could use

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Speaker 6: a little sincerity and self sacrifice now. Right, we're sort

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Speaker 6: of in this moment of you know, the hot take

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Speaker 6: where you kind of take the position that nobody else

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Speaker 6: is taking and your cynical and you kind of have

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Speaker 6: your kind of anti hero perspective and I feel like

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Speaker 6: we're kind of moving past that a little bit now.

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Speaker 6: I think, I don't know if it's a post election

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Speaker 6: moment or you know, we're kind of worn out on

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Speaker 6: Tony Soprano or what. But I don't know, it feels

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Speaker 6: fresh to me still.

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Speaker 5: Did you see this film at a young age, Catherine?

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Speaker 6: You know, I saw it in college, and so I

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Speaker 6: was thinking also about the sort of long shadow of

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Speaker 6: World War Two part of this retrospective essay. And I

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Speaker 6: saw it the year before September eleventh, So I you know,

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Speaker 6: I was a nineties teen and I grew up with

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Speaker 6: a lot of the kind of flashy indie directors, right,

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Speaker 6: So that was my initial film education as a teenagers.

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Speaker 6: I was watching you know, Kevin Smith and Tarantino, and

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Speaker 6: you know, that's what all of my really film educated

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Speaker 6: friends were into. And then I had a friend in

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Speaker 6: college who was into classical film and we watched this

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Speaker 6: film together and I just felt like, oh man, there's

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Speaker 6: this whole other world of film, you know, that's cool

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Speaker 6: and affecting, right, And I think that's that's again this.

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Speaker 6: I really appreciate the non cynical kind of nature of

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Speaker 6: the film, right that I guess you know after watching right,

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Speaker 6: I remember having the flu at some point in college

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Speaker 6: and watching Natural Born Killers. Right, this is sort of

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Speaker 6: the this and it just felt really.

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Speaker 5: I would get I would get the flu from that

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Speaker 5: movie right, all over movies.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so you know it was it was kind of

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Speaker 6: it blew our minds really to watch this movie and

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Speaker 6: all of those famous lines that you know are in

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Speaker 6: the culture, but as someone who grew up being able

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Speaker 6: to rent videos and not having to rely on you

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Speaker 6: know what was playing on TV, having access to these

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Speaker 6: lines and sort of getting hit bam bam bam. Oh

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Speaker 6: that's from this film too. That's from this film too.

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Speaker 6: That's from this film too. I just sort of felt

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Speaker 6: like something cracked open seeing this.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, what.

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Speaker 5: About you, Adam, how early on did you bump into it?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 8: This is a perfect and why are you and why

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Speaker 8: are you wearing a fedora right now?

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Speaker 4: You know I like to come in character. Okay.

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Speaker 2: I saw this for the first time, not until I

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Speaker 2: was in college, when I was in film school, so

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Speaker 2: it would have been actually the late nineties when I

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Speaker 2: saw this movie for the first time. And this really

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Speaker 2: is the ideal sort of scenario for one of these

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Speaker 2: reviews because watching it again just last night, actually I

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Speaker 2: realized I don't think I had seen it in the

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Speaker 2: interro at all. Somehow I had never had an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to see it. So I really am revisiting a film

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Speaker 2: that is regarded as a classic and that I saw

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Speaker 2: originally many years ago and loved. And it felt almost

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Speaker 2: like I was watching it for the first time. And

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Speaker 2: that's what we're usually going for here. And it's funny.

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Speaker 2: I picked out the exact same two paragraphs from the

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Speaker 2: Laura Miller Slight article as you did, Michael, the one

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Speaker 2: about movies in a movie like this making you think

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Speaker 2: most of all of who you want to be, and

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Speaker 2: then her concluding statement where she says essentially that that

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Speaker 2: is no longer the case of this movie. It maybe

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Speaker 2: no longer has that power, and she says it's still

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Speaker 2: worth revisiting, but less captivating and necessary. Watching it again

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Speaker 2: last night, for me, I found it still as captivating

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Speaker 2: as I did twenty years ago. I found it even

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Speaker 2: more necessary, actually, but we can get into that later.

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Speaker 2: The other aspect of that, the first part talking about

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Speaker 2: every audience member feeling like this is about me or

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Speaker 2: someone who I aspire to be. I made my kids

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Speaker 2: watch this with me oldest, so my son Holden just

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Speaker 2: turned fifteen, and my daughter Sophie's about to be thirteen.

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Speaker 2: Sophie was mostly kind of lost by all the maneuvering

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Speaker 2: of the plot.

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Speaker 5: Right the film, the political stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but my son Holden is this huge international diplomacy nerd.

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Speaker 2: Those are the kind of games he plays computer games,

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Speaker 2: and otherwise was saying.

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Speaker 8: Things like, oh, yes, the cost of block of conference

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Speaker 8: was right there around that time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he was actually Michael, and he's huge into geography,

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Speaker 2: World War two in general. He's certainly not a connoisseur

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Speaker 2: of classic cinema. He loved this movie, and I was

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Speaker 2: sitting right next to him on the couch and I

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Speaker 2: was listening to him audibly react to all these great

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Speaker 2: moments and lines, lines that he, for the most part,

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Speaker 2: was hearing for the first time. And at the end

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Speaker 2: of it, he just said, everybody in that movie was

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Speaker 2: so awesome.

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Speaker 4: Oh. I knew exactly what he.

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Speaker 2: Meant, because that comment Laura Miller had about a lot

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Speaker 2: of adolescent boys maybe taking immediately to Bogee and his

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Speaker 2: gruffness and his toughness and how unflappable he seems at

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Speaker 2: all times except when he's around Ingrid Bergmann's ilsa. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's something I think my son probably does sort of

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Speaker 2: wish he had a little bit more in him, just

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Speaker 2: as I do actually for that matter. And at the

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Speaker 2: same time he's this selfish rogue. He's charming, of course,

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Speaker 2: and he's funny, and he's in control, and at his

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Speaker 2: core he's this idealist. And so I know that Holden

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Speaker 2: was reacting to this figure that he admired in some way.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't just him. It was Claude Rains, it

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Speaker 2: was Peter Lourie, it was Paul Henried, it was Sidney

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Speaker 2: green Street. He was responding to the performances, of course.

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Speaker 2: And a moment I'll single out that I know work

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Speaker 2: for both of us is when we see Renault's devilish

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Speaker 2: little grin when he sees the Germans starting to sing

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Speaker 2: about the Fatherland.

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Speaker 4: It's just like these fricking guys, you know. And I

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Speaker 4: just love that we get those those kind of reactions.

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Speaker 2: We get so many moments like that, wonderful faces throughout

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Speaker 2: this whole film. But he really was invested in not

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Speaker 2: just the plot, but just these characters and those lines

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Speaker 2: of dialogue. And yes, he did discover that in one

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Speaker 2: of his games, there's a badge or something that's called

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Speaker 2: the here's looking at you kid badge. Never understood it, well,

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Speaker 2: guess what. It's something you get when you go from

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Speaker 2: like Portugal to Casablanca or vice versa. So that clicked

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Speaker 2: for him and it felt it felt relevant to him,

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Speaker 2: that's for sure, but it felt even more relevant to

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Speaker 2: me for some of the political reasons that you touched on, Catherine.

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Speaker 4: I think we can get into that a little bit.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: I think the thing that I think is a little

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Speaker 8: nutty about the Laura Miller piece and Slade is this

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Speaker 8: idea that it's not, you know, an admirable architect. There's

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Speaker 8: nobody to kind of look up to and aspire to.

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Speaker 8: And I think especially I can only speak as a

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Speaker 8: high school age you know, male in Racine, Wisconsin is

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Speaker 8: probably see him for the first time when I was

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Speaker 8: I don't know, fourteen or fifteen, probably on TV and

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Speaker 8: then I saw early date. For me, you know, I

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Speaker 8: took my high school girlfriend, Sheila Hogan up to Milwaukee

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Speaker 8: to see, you know, a revival screening. This is like

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Speaker 8: in seventy eight seventy nine, and I mean, think of that,

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Speaker 8: that's forty It's almost forty years ago when the film

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Speaker 8: was turning seventy five. So you know, it means it

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Speaker 8: just lived in the culture for me in a way

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Speaker 8: that it does not for even people who adore it,

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Speaker 8: who are you know, ten twenty twenty five years younger

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Speaker 8: than me.

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Speaker 5: It's it's it's just not the same.

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Speaker 6: I was wondering about that though. I was looking this

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Speaker 6: time at the moment we first see Bogart and we

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Speaker 6: see first a cigarette, right, and a cocktail, and then

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Speaker 6: we see his face, and you know, I've been sort

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Speaker 6: of struggling with that last moment of the essay we're

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Speaker 6: talking about where she says that this is less captivating

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Speaker 6: and necessary, and I was just thinking, well, you know

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Speaker 6: what about Don Draper. Weren't there all these little kind

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Speaker 6: of wanna be Don Draper's running around because people are

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Speaker 6: really into the fact there's the smoking and the cocktail

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Speaker 6: culture and all this stuff, and you know, it's there's

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Speaker 6: still that kind of I guess hipness, but you know

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Speaker 6: it's much less shallow in some ways. Right, this is

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Speaker 6: a character I don't know who who sort of has

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Speaker 6: this history of goodness and the sacrifice that he gets into. Right,

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Speaker 6: so we get the kind of style and surface here.

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Speaker 6: I think that it still does feel, you know, pretty

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Speaker 6: you know, he seems pretty cool to me.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, I think I think there's a couple of

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Speaker 8: things that have been, you know, the best one of

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Speaker 8: the best things in that Laura Miller essay. And I

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Speaker 8: don't want to talk about that too much, but but

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Speaker 8: is she I think she rightly so really dings. Woody

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Speaker 8: Allen's play and movie played against Sam Hard for including

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Speaker 8: a line like I never saw a dame that didn't

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Speaker 8: understand a good slap in the mouth or a slug

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Speaker 8: from a forty five. That's what the imaginary Bogie says

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Speaker 8: in that play. You know, Bulgart never would have said

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Speaker 8: a goddamn thing like that. I mean, that's a mini Ricky, right.

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Speaker 8: Anybody Bogart ever played that is not that line. Is

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Speaker 8: Mickey Spillane or Mike Hammer. It has not got anything

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Speaker 8: with Bogie or or Cozublanca.

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Speaker 5: It just isn't.

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Speaker 8: And one of the things, if anything, you can kind

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Speaker 8: of look at Casablanca and say that the guy you

325
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Speaker 8: can argue that the rick is really mired and self

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Speaker 8: pity and and you know, heartbreak.

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Speaker 5: And that's.

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Speaker 8: But to me, that's what makes makes this kind of

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Speaker 8: glorious Hollywood schlock a little bit human. I mean, this

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Speaker 8: is not this is I don't want to. I mean,

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Speaker 8: it's a film I really love. At the same time,

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Speaker 8: I understand completely why the Side and Sound Pole wouldn't

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Speaker 8: make room for it in its top fifty. I don't

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Speaker 8: think I would either. It's just not it's not the

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Speaker 8: kind of classic that you look to for form, even

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Speaker 8: though it's for what it is. It's extremely adroitly made, yes,

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Speaker 8: and gorgeously cast, and and there's you know, there's a

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Speaker 8: reason people go back to it, And a lot of

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Speaker 8: it is the writing, which they were, My god, they

340
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Speaker 8: were right. They were the story of how this thing

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Speaker 8: barely got made, you know, rewriting every night and every

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Speaker 8: morning and not even knowing who is going to end

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Speaker 8: up with who by the end of it. You know,

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Speaker 8: it gives it gives the movie kind of a peculiar tension,

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Speaker 8: and I think you can feel it. It's kind of

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Speaker 8: a it's kind of a meta thing going on, where

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Speaker 8: you know, all these characters in Cosabonca don't know if

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Speaker 8: they're getting out in the narrative.

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Speaker 5: And yet and at the.

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Speaker 8: Same time, the Epstein brothers and uh and and all

351
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Speaker 8: the other all the other folks working on the movie.

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Speaker 8: You know, they didn't really know where they were going

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Speaker 8: with this adaptation of an unproduced play.

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Speaker 5: You know, they just didn't know. But it's a movie

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Speaker 5: that it's a kind of classic quote classic.

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Speaker 8: You can show people that it's not an intimidating kind

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Speaker 8: of you know, it's more about comforting content and rather

358
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Speaker 8: than challenging form. And therefore, I think it's kind of

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Speaker 8: the opposite of something like Citizen Kane, which is not

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Speaker 8: trying to make you cry, is not trying.

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Speaker 5: To move you in a conventional way.

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Speaker 8: You might find Kane fascinating and moving and all kinds

363
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Speaker 8: of things, but it's not I mean, they are completely

364
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Speaker 8: different temperatures, these two things.

365
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Speaker 2: Yes, Kurtis is definitely not trying to show his hand

366
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Speaker 2: at work. And that said, Catherine, you mentioned the intro

367
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Speaker 2: or introduction to Bogie here and Michael you talk about

368
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Speaker 2: maybe this isn't a movie that is drawing a lot

369
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Speaker 2: of attention to its form, but the craft of it

370
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Speaker 2: in terms of how the screenplay and the visuals work together.

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Speaker 2: I think this movie has one of the all time

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Speaker 2: great setups and introductions to a character, because not only

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Speaker 2: do we only see those parts of him first, but

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Speaker 2: even before that happens, we see his name when the

375
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Speaker 2: plane is flying in one of the first, one of

376
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Speaker 2: the first shots, we see his name, and so immediately

377
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Speaker 2: we're kind of wondering who is Rick and why is

378
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Speaker 2: he being featured so prominently that early on? And then

379
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Speaker 2: at least three or four times people talk about Rick

380
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Speaker 2: before we even meet him, and there's all this talk

381
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Speaker 2: about what once we do finally meet him, there's all

382
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Speaker 2: this talk about what would impress him?

383
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Speaker 4: Right UGARTI talks about.

384
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So by the time we do meet him, we

385
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Speaker 2: can't wait to finally see what this guy is all about.

386
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Speaker 2: It's really heightened in that way. And then, as I said,

387
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Speaker 2: when we do finally get to see him, he's someone

388
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Speaker 2: who we know everyone else is in some way looking

389
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Speaker 2: up to or trying to impress, and that makes us

390
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Speaker 2: then revere him a little bit more even as a character.

391
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Speaker 2: I think another thing that stood out to me this

392
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Speaker 2: time that I really liked is the way the Paul

393
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Speaker 2: Henried character is in a lot of ways equal to Bogie,

394
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Speaker 2: and I can just I can speak for my son

395
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Speaker 2: and say that he felt that way. Like I mean,

396
00:19:25,965 --> 00:19:27,805
Speaker 2: Bogie is still Bogey, don't get me wrong, right, And

397
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Speaker 2: he's the he's the star of the film. I'm sure

398
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Speaker 2: everyone revers him more. But he could have been played Henri,

399
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Speaker 2: could have been played as this sort of bland I'm

400
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Speaker 2: gonna probably get myself into trouble saying us around two

401
00:19:40,245 --> 00:19:43,765
Speaker 2: historians such as yourselves, but a Ray Miland type character

402
00:19:44,125 --> 00:19:45,965
Speaker 2: who maybe is kind of the just the straight guy

403
00:19:46,045 --> 00:19:49,765
Speaker 2: and he's meant to be the foil Ralph Bellamy. That's

404
00:19:49,765 --> 00:19:53,445
Speaker 2: who I am thinking of, exactly. But Bob Cummings maybe so.

405
00:19:53,725 --> 00:19:56,645
Speaker 2: But here we have a guy who is someone who

406
00:19:56,685 --> 00:20:00,925
Speaker 2: actually impresses Rick. Right, He impresses Rick. You see that

407
00:20:01,005 --> 00:20:03,405
Speaker 2: every time they interact with you, nobody else does.

408
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Speaker 5: He's escaped from the concentration camp.

409
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Speaker 6: Right.

410
00:20:05,325 --> 00:20:08,405
Speaker 2: He's truly brave, he truly acts on his convictions. He's

411
00:20:08,485 --> 00:20:11,445
Speaker 2: also good looking and smart and eloquent. And so what

412
00:20:11,485 --> 00:20:14,925
Speaker 2: that does is that heightens that tension where we are

413
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Speaker 2: legitimately torn. I think as viewers in our allegiances as

414
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Speaker 2: much as we revere Bogie It isn't just about who's

415
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Speaker 2: she's going to choose. It's about the conflict of knowing

416
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Speaker 2: she could be great with both, and yeah, probably better

417
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Speaker 2: off as as Bogie ultimately decides with Victor. But I

418
00:20:32,125 --> 00:20:34,925
Speaker 2: do feel like we're torn partly because we see him

419
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Speaker 2: as an equal to Rick in some ways. Then the

420
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Speaker 2: movie could have chosen another route.

421
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Speaker 7: You must know, it's very important I get out of Casablanca.

422
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Speaker 7: It's my privilege to be one of the leaders of

423
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Speaker 7: a great movement. You know what I've been doing. You

424
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Speaker 7: know what it means to the work, to the lives

425
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Speaker 7: of thousands and thousands of people, that I'd be free

426
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Speaker 7: to reach America and continue my work. I'm not interested

427
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Speaker 7: in politics. The problems of the world are not in

428
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Speaker 7: my department. I'm a saloon keeper. My friends in the

429
00:20:59,685 --> 00:21:03,365
Speaker 7: underground tell me you've quite a record. You ran guns

430
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Speaker 7: to Ethiopia, you fought against the fascists in Spain. Whatever.

431
00:21:07,565 --> 00:21:09,445
Speaker 7: Isn't it strange that you always happened to be fighting

432
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Speaker 7: on the side of the underdog. Yes, and I found

433
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Speaker 7: that a very expensive hobby too, But then I never

434
00:21:13,685 --> 00:21:14,805
Speaker 7: was much of a business man.

435
00:21:15,325 --> 00:21:17,005
Speaker 6: I think I disagree with you a little bit this

436
00:21:17,485 --> 00:21:20,165
Speaker 6: time through, I was feeling that the love triangle was

437
00:21:20,245 --> 00:21:23,005
Speaker 6: really kind of eat it in one point A little

438
00:21:23,005 --> 00:21:26,645
Speaker 6: bit this time I wonder, you know, a lot of

439
00:21:27,165 --> 00:21:29,205
Speaker 6: as you were saying, of what we learn about people

440
00:21:29,245 --> 00:21:31,525
Speaker 6: come through dialogue that other people are speaking. And I

441
00:21:31,565 --> 00:21:34,525
Speaker 6: was wondering, you know, I think so much of the

442
00:21:34,565 --> 00:21:37,285
Speaker 6: respect that we feel for the Laslow character comes through

443
00:21:37,285 --> 00:21:39,365
Speaker 6: what other people say about him. I mean, for the

444
00:21:39,365 --> 00:21:41,285
Speaker 6: longest time, I couldn't figure out, you know, what does

445
00:21:41,325 --> 00:21:43,365
Speaker 6: this guy feel about his wife?

446
00:21:44,085 --> 00:21:46,245
Speaker 4: No, that's that's valid. So yeah, so.

447
00:21:46,165 --> 00:21:47,885
Speaker 6: This this time I felt that I think a little

448
00:21:47,885 --> 00:21:51,005
Speaker 6: more strongly that the you know, the weight of a

449
00:21:51,125 --> 00:21:52,285
Speaker 6: Rick versus Lazlo.

450
00:21:52,565 --> 00:21:52,645
Speaker 7: There.

451
00:21:52,925 --> 00:21:55,525
Speaker 2: There is another one other quick screenwriting thing I really

452
00:21:55,605 --> 00:21:57,445
Speaker 2: like here that I picked up on this time is

453
00:21:58,005 --> 00:22:02,045
Speaker 2: we know why Ilsa left him at the train station.

454
00:22:02,325 --> 00:22:04,805
Speaker 2: We figure it out because the screenplay gives us hints

455
00:22:04,805 --> 00:22:08,285
Speaker 2: along the way before Rick figures it out. And I

456
00:22:08,405 --> 00:22:10,805
Speaker 2: like that when when the movie lets the audience sort

457
00:22:10,845 --> 00:22:13,765
Speaker 2: of figure out something and and then we're waiting for

458
00:22:13,845 --> 00:22:15,565
Speaker 2: him to finally catch up to things a little bit,

459
00:22:15,605 --> 00:22:18,165
Speaker 2: and it allows us also to see him as as fallible,

460
00:22:18,205 --> 00:22:20,205
Speaker 2: like he's he's missing part of the story and he's

461
00:22:20,245 --> 00:22:24,405
Speaker 2: wallowing in self pity and that tempers the coolness of

462
00:22:24,445 --> 00:22:24,965
Speaker 2: his character.

463
00:22:25,125 --> 00:22:27,125
Speaker 8: Yeah, without that, I think you got you got a

464
00:22:27,245 --> 00:22:30,525
Speaker 8: very boring character. And I mean this, And Paul Henriy

465
00:22:31,165 --> 00:22:33,565
Speaker 8: hated making this movie. He thought his he thought the

466
00:22:33,605 --> 00:22:36,965
Speaker 8: Laso character was nothing but functionary and you know, nothing,

467
00:22:37,045 --> 00:22:41,685
Speaker 8: nothing much to play. But I think what, I really what,

468
00:22:41,725 --> 00:22:44,005
Speaker 8: I really noticed this this time through. And I hadn't

469
00:22:44,045 --> 00:22:47,085
Speaker 8: seen the movie front to back in many years, but

470
00:22:47,125 --> 00:22:49,325
Speaker 8: I saw it the other day and and I do,

471
00:22:49,405 --> 00:22:51,365
Speaker 8: I really do think the first forty forty five minutes

472
00:22:51,485 --> 00:22:54,405
Speaker 8: is kind of terrific Hollywood studio filmmaking.

473
00:22:54,445 --> 00:22:55,285
Speaker 5: It's really crisp.

474
00:22:55,325 --> 00:22:59,805
Speaker 8: I mean, Michael Critisis has always been sort of a

475
00:22:59,925 --> 00:23:03,445
Speaker 8: compelling a minus director for me, you know, and I

476
00:23:03,805 --> 00:23:05,925
Speaker 8: just sort of enjoyed things like and this sounds totally

477
00:23:05,965 --> 00:23:08,845
Speaker 8: wonky and like off off narrative, But nobody could film

478
00:23:08,885 --> 00:23:11,965
Speaker 8: a car doing pulling up at high speeds as the

479
00:23:11,965 --> 00:23:14,565
Speaker 8: camera dolly's in on in a diagonal and Michael, it's

480
00:23:14,605 --> 00:23:18,484
Speaker 8: just Critisie is always moving the camera in a dolly

481
00:23:19,005 --> 00:23:21,605
Speaker 8: on a diagonal in a way the totally is dynamic,

482
00:23:21,965 --> 00:23:24,045
Speaker 8: and you know, I love it when he's like zipping

483
00:23:24,085 --> 00:23:27,165
Speaker 8: into a nightclub or just sort of dealing with backlot

484
00:23:27,685 --> 00:23:31,405
Speaker 8: scenes of this sort of airsats Cosablanca, you know, I mean,

485
00:23:31,605 --> 00:23:33,605
Speaker 8: you know, it's a lot closer to Van Nuys or

486
00:23:33,685 --> 00:23:37,325
Speaker 8: Thousand Oaks than Cosablanca, the whole kind of atmosphere of

487
00:23:37,365 --> 00:23:39,725
Speaker 8: the picture. But it's sort of irresistible anyway.

488
00:23:39,805 --> 00:23:42,165
Speaker 4: Now Van Nuys just doesn't have the ring to it though.

489
00:23:42,085 --> 00:23:44,085
Speaker 5: No, it doesn't. No, I wouldn't have called it Van Nis.

490
00:23:44,365 --> 00:23:44,405
Speaker 6: No.

491
00:23:45,445 --> 00:23:48,965
Speaker 8: But there's there's a close up on Bergmann when she

492
00:23:49,125 --> 00:23:55,525
Speaker 8: finally gets which one, when she finally gets Sam the

493
00:23:55,525 --> 00:23:58,765
Speaker 8: piano player played by Dooley Wilson to play and sing

494
00:23:58,805 --> 00:24:01,285
Speaker 8: as time goes by, right, the Herman Hupfeld song from

495
00:24:01,365 --> 00:24:04,845
Speaker 8: nineteen thirty one, which enjoyed this amazing resurgence after the

496
00:24:04,845 --> 00:24:07,325
Speaker 8: film came out twelve years later. And it's a twenty

497
00:24:07,365 --> 00:24:10,445
Speaker 8: six second close up with just the piano, and that

498
00:24:11,565 --> 00:24:14,005
Speaker 8: there's so many great things about that twenty six seconds.

499
00:24:14,005 --> 00:24:17,765
Speaker 8: A Max Steiner's score, the musical score finally has to

500
00:24:17,805 --> 00:24:20,325
Speaker 8: shut the hell up and just let the piano do it.

501
00:24:20,285 --> 00:24:23,925
Speaker 8: And Steiner's you know, I love some of his stuff,

502
00:24:23,925 --> 00:24:25,685
Speaker 8: but not a lot, and I think he's kind of

503
00:24:25,685 --> 00:24:28,685
Speaker 8: always big footing the action. That's an amazing twenty six

504
00:24:28,725 --> 00:24:31,245
Speaker 8: second and that to me that felt like, Okay, I'm

505
00:24:31,285 --> 00:24:34,245
Speaker 8: in and I'm not in like watching it like in.

506
00:24:34,285 --> 00:24:37,645
Speaker 5: Sort of a you know, interested observer way.

507
00:24:37,685 --> 00:24:41,165
Speaker 8: I just thought, that's that feels completely fresh, and a

508
00:24:41,205 --> 00:24:43,285
Speaker 8: lot of it's just her beauty, I suppose, but a

509
00:24:43,285 --> 00:24:45,365
Speaker 8: lot of it's just every everything else that's conspiring to

510
00:24:45,365 --> 00:24:47,045
Speaker 8: make that moment great. Then then there's a kind of

511
00:24:47,045 --> 00:24:51,125
Speaker 8: a bookend shot where Boguart is drunk and he's you know,

512
00:24:51,165 --> 00:24:52,925
Speaker 8: drunkenly saying you've played it for her, you can play

513
00:24:52,925 --> 00:24:56,805
Speaker 8: it for me, play it. And that shot is kind

514
00:24:56,805 --> 00:24:58,805
Speaker 8: of a medium shot. It's this and that's almost a

515
00:24:58,805 --> 00:25:01,245
Speaker 8: full minute fifty seven seconds, and then that sort of

516
00:25:01,285 --> 00:25:03,205
Speaker 8: fades into the you know what a lot of people

517
00:25:03,245 --> 00:25:05,285
Speaker 8: think is kind of one of the weaker five minutes

518
00:25:05,285 --> 00:25:07,685
Speaker 8: of the picture, which is the Paris flashback, right, But

519
00:25:07,725 --> 00:25:11,125
Speaker 8: that but that minute of just a single shot where

520
00:25:11,205 --> 00:25:13,885
Speaker 8: Bogart is sort of muttering a couple things incomprehensible, that

521
00:25:13,965 --> 00:25:16,484
Speaker 8: again is like, now this is screen acting, you know,

522
00:25:16,885 --> 00:25:19,845
Speaker 8: and this is and that's that's where you realize there

523
00:25:19,845 --> 00:25:21,885
Speaker 8: are feelings at stake, and I think even in this

524
00:25:21,965 --> 00:25:25,285
Speaker 8: sort of Hollywood fairy tale, and I don't want to

525
00:25:25,285 --> 00:25:26,965
Speaker 8: diminish the film and I don't want to inflate it.

526
00:25:27,005 --> 00:25:29,525
Speaker 8: I just sort of feel like if people don't know Costablanca,

527
00:25:29,565 --> 00:25:31,685
Speaker 8: they just kind of need to find out for themselves

528
00:25:31,725 --> 00:25:33,565
Speaker 8: where they land in it. And I, you know, if

529
00:25:33,565 --> 00:25:36,445
Speaker 8: you happen to land on a situation, in a position

530
00:25:36,725 --> 00:25:39,525
Speaker 8: where you feel yourself out, I don't really get the fuss. Well,

531
00:25:39,685 --> 00:25:42,605
Speaker 8: welcome to my experience with It's a wonderful life every year,

532
00:25:42,685 --> 00:25:46,125
Speaker 8: you know. I mean, you know, but Costablanca is not

533
00:25:46,245 --> 00:25:48,885
Speaker 8: that for me. I found myself kind of newly falling

534
00:25:48,925 --> 00:25:51,045
Speaker 8: into it happily, especially the first half.

535
00:25:51,205 --> 00:25:51,845
Speaker 5: I think there is.

536
00:25:51,805 --> 00:25:54,245
Speaker 8: Something a little progressively weaker about the film, although I

537
00:25:54,285 --> 00:25:55,285
Speaker 8: adore the way it ends.

538
00:25:56,485 --> 00:25:57,365
Speaker 5: And maybe it's just.

539
00:25:57,285 --> 00:26:02,484
Speaker 8: Because some of the desperation with the screenwriting as they

540
00:26:02,485 --> 00:26:05,325
Speaker 8: were writing on the fly. Maybe there's just one too

541
00:26:05,365 --> 00:26:07,285
Speaker 8: many scenes where somebody pulls a gun and it's supposed

542
00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:09,605
Speaker 8: to be a surprise and then it's a reversal. But

543
00:26:09,645 --> 00:26:11,805
Speaker 8: the first forty five minutes to me, is like, is

544
00:26:12,005 --> 00:26:13,645
Speaker 8: absolutely irresistible popcorn.

545
00:26:13,885 --> 00:26:16,525
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last thirty minutes or so, Michael, I think

546
00:26:16,525 --> 00:26:18,805
Speaker 2: I'm with you a little bit that you certainly become

547
00:26:18,885 --> 00:26:21,205
Speaker 2: aware or I did, that there's a real life lack

548
00:26:21,245 --> 00:26:24,565
Speaker 2: of stakes. The Nazis are never a threat in this movie,

549
00:26:24,565 --> 00:26:27,045
Speaker 2: not even remotely, And I think maybe that's something that

550
00:26:27,325 --> 00:26:29,085
Speaker 2: that Hawks when he did his version of this and

551
00:26:29,125 --> 00:26:31,765
Speaker 2: to have and have not he improved on that one thing,

552
00:26:31,765 --> 00:26:34,125
Speaker 2: which is actually making the Nazis a little bit scary

553
00:26:34,285 --> 00:26:35,045
Speaker 2: well and menacing.

554
00:26:35,165 --> 00:26:39,565
Speaker 8: Right, And even though Warners and hal Wails were very

555
00:26:39,885 --> 00:26:44,725
Speaker 8: we're very forward progressive thinkers in terms of the Hollywood

556
00:26:45,445 --> 00:26:48,845
Speaker 8: power structure about let's deal with what's actually happening in

557
00:26:48,885 --> 00:26:52,485
Speaker 8: the war today, other people took him much longer to

558
00:26:52,565 --> 00:26:55,685
Speaker 8: kind of embrace, you know, the sort of the anti

559
00:26:55,765 --> 00:26:58,325
Speaker 8: Nazi propaganda movement in and this is you know, yes,

560
00:26:58,485 --> 00:27:02,405
Speaker 8: this film in a way defines anti Nazi propaganda films,

561
00:27:03,245 --> 00:27:05,765
Speaker 8: but it does it in a way that, thank god,

562
00:27:05,885 --> 00:27:08,365
Speaker 8: you know, transcends sort of the weaker stuff. And I mean,

563
00:27:08,485 --> 00:27:12,205
Speaker 8: just a year before Bogart did a film with John Houston,

564
00:27:12,285 --> 00:27:15,805
Speaker 8: arguably a greater director, I think, inarguably greater director at

565
00:27:15,845 --> 00:27:20,085
Speaker 8: his best than Curtiche but you know, called Across the Pacific, right,

566
00:27:20,125 --> 00:27:22,685
Speaker 8: And that's a film that's you know, pretty interesting and

567
00:27:22,765 --> 00:27:25,045
Speaker 8: pretty fun. And then it's there's all this kind of cheap,

568
00:27:25,565 --> 00:27:29,325
Speaker 8: you know, really kind of egregious, you know, anti Japanese stereotyping,

569
00:27:29,325 --> 00:27:32,365
Speaker 8: which of course was just rampant all through Hollywood for

570
00:27:32,485 --> 00:27:36,045
Speaker 8: three four years. And uh, and that film it just

571
00:27:36,205 --> 00:27:39,085
Speaker 8: isn't it Just it's instructive, I think, to see Across

572
00:27:39,085 --> 00:27:41,965
Speaker 8: the Pacific kind of in relation to cosmogity, just to

573
00:27:42,005 --> 00:27:45,045
Speaker 8: see how one is you know, interesting for its time.

574
00:27:45,605 --> 00:27:47,765
Speaker 8: One one you know, whether you love it or not,

575
00:27:48,405 --> 00:27:50,725
Speaker 8: has has happily transcended its time.

576
00:27:51,125 --> 00:27:56,085
Speaker 6: Do you think the middle right the sort of turning point.

577
00:27:56,205 --> 00:27:58,485
Speaker 6: I wanted to kind of argue about the or not argue,

578
00:27:58,485 --> 00:28:01,325
Speaker 6: but just say a little about the stakes of the romance.

579
00:28:01,365 --> 00:28:03,445
Speaker 6: One of the things that I really like about the

580
00:28:03,605 --> 00:28:07,165
Speaker 6: style is one of those moments where the gun gets pulled,

581
00:28:07,565 --> 00:28:10,565
Speaker 6: but when Ilsa pulls the gun on Rick. And one

582
00:28:10,605 --> 00:28:12,525
Speaker 6: of the things that I think this this film does

583
00:28:12,565 --> 00:28:14,445
Speaker 6: that's really interesting is the stakes that it brings to

584
00:28:14,445 --> 00:28:17,405
Speaker 6: the romance. Right, that whole scene looks like it's straight

585
00:28:17,405 --> 00:28:18,205
Speaker 6: out of a film noir.

586
00:28:18,285 --> 00:28:18,405
Speaker 7: Right.

587
00:28:18,405 --> 00:28:21,685
Speaker 6: I think there's even you know, the Venetian wind kind

588
00:28:21,685 --> 00:28:24,925
Speaker 6: of shadows across Ilso's face at one moment, and you

589
00:28:24,965 --> 00:28:27,325
Speaker 6: know that that's the sort of violence that's all around

590
00:28:27,325 --> 00:28:31,365
Speaker 6: these people. It heightens sort of the stakes of the romance.

591
00:28:31,405 --> 00:28:33,645
Speaker 6: But I think I think there is that real sense of,

592
00:28:33,765 --> 00:28:37,565
Speaker 6: you know, the violence in love that comes across here, right,

593
00:28:37,565 --> 00:28:41,765
Speaker 6: that he has been devastated by her, that she, you know,

594
00:28:41,885 --> 00:28:45,485
Speaker 6: has this kind of painful, almost bodily need for forgiveness. Right,

595
00:28:45,525 --> 00:28:49,205
Speaker 6: And we get, you know, stylistically, that feeling of danger there,

596
00:28:49,325 --> 00:28:50,845
Speaker 6: and yeah, we get the gun pull at the end.

597
00:28:50,845 --> 00:28:52,445
Speaker 6: But I think I think this film is good about

598
00:28:52,525 --> 00:28:55,725
Speaker 6: kind of activating the violence that goes along with romantic

599
00:28:55,765 --> 00:28:57,205
Speaker 6: portrayal and things like that.

600
00:28:57,365 --> 00:28:58,925
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's valid.

601
00:28:58,965 --> 00:29:01,645
Speaker 2: And yet I did find myself this time feeling actually

602
00:29:01,685 --> 00:29:05,845
Speaker 2: more suspense and worrying more about how that poor Bulgarian

603
00:29:05,925 --> 00:29:08,245
Speaker 2: wife and her husband would end up than I did

604
00:29:08,325 --> 00:29:10,765
Speaker 2: Rick and Ilsa. To be totally honest, I was more

605
00:29:10,805 --> 00:29:13,285
Speaker 2: invested in that almost than I was how things were

606
00:29:13,285 --> 00:29:15,805
Speaker 2: going to end up with this little love triangle. But

607
00:29:15,845 --> 00:29:19,045
Speaker 2: I am curious Katherin for your your thoughts on on Bergmann,

608
00:29:19,045 --> 00:29:20,765
Speaker 2: because Michael talked.

609
00:29:20,485 --> 00:29:21,605
Speaker 4: Their very eloquently.

610
00:29:21,685 --> 00:29:26,085
Speaker 2: But to the surprises this time for me were Bogie's vulnerability,

611
00:29:26,125 --> 00:29:27,365
Speaker 2: and we touched on that a little bit. I mean,

612
00:29:27,445 --> 00:29:29,165
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the all time great playing

613
00:29:29,245 --> 00:29:32,365
Speaker 2: drunk scenes, honestly, and that close up you talk about,

614
00:29:32,365 --> 00:29:35,365
Speaker 2: But maybe Bogie didn't need much practice, and who knows,

615
00:29:35,405 --> 00:29:38,565
Speaker 2: he might have been doing some actual method acting there,

616
00:29:38,605 --> 00:29:42,205
Speaker 2: I suppose in that scene. But it's great and that vulnerability.

617
00:29:42,285 --> 00:29:46,325
Speaker 2: I only remembered the Bogie that sort of gets shown

618
00:29:46,485 --> 00:29:49,805
Speaker 2: depicted in the Woody Allen movie, and it's much different

619
00:29:49,805 --> 00:29:53,165
Speaker 2: than that. But for reasons I can't completely articulate, and

620
00:29:53,205 --> 00:29:56,245
Speaker 2: maybe that's just what you chalk up to being movie magic.

621
00:29:56,965 --> 00:30:00,645
Speaker 2: Bergman really is incredible here, and it's every long and

622
00:30:00,725 --> 00:30:03,285
Speaker 2: close up with that gauzy lighting and that one in

623
00:30:03,325 --> 00:30:06,725
Speaker 2: particular that you focused on Michael. But I just think

624
00:30:06,765 --> 00:30:10,205
Speaker 2: that she ends up carrying the emotional weight of this

625
00:30:10,285 --> 00:30:13,085
Speaker 2: movie on her shoulders. While everyone else gets all the

626
00:30:13,125 --> 00:30:16,565
Speaker 2: snappy dialogue and they get all the entertaining stuff, She's

627
00:30:16,605 --> 00:30:19,925
Speaker 2: actually saddled with most of the conflict and the internal

628
00:30:19,965 --> 00:30:22,125
Speaker 2: struggle and that last line. As much as I love

629
00:30:22,165 --> 00:30:25,285
Speaker 2: the ending, watching it with a modern perspective, let's say

630
00:30:25,325 --> 00:30:27,485
Speaker 2: there is that last bit where he says, Elsa, I'm

631
00:30:27,525 --> 00:30:29,325
Speaker 2: no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much

632
00:30:29,365 --> 00:30:31,525
Speaker 2: to see that the problems of three little people don't

633
00:30:31,525 --> 00:30:33,285
Speaker 2: amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.

634
00:30:33,325 --> 00:30:36,285
Speaker 2: And then he adds someday you'll understand that, which just

635
00:30:36,325 --> 00:30:38,605
Speaker 2: seems to me, this this ultimate bit of man's planning

636
00:30:38,685 --> 00:30:40,205
Speaker 2: right back in the forties.

637
00:30:40,245 --> 00:30:42,365
Speaker 8: It's important to end a great line with a totally

638
00:30:42,405 --> 00:30:43,765
Speaker 8: patronizing exactly.

639
00:30:45,245 --> 00:30:45,485
Speaker 7: You know.

640
00:30:45,565 --> 00:30:48,085
Speaker 9: I think that so much of it is understood is

641
00:30:48,125 --> 00:30:51,965
Speaker 9: his sacrifice. But she's sort of being packed off with

642
00:30:52,005 --> 00:30:54,205
Speaker 9: the man that I think it's clear she loves less, right,

643
00:30:54,245 --> 00:30:56,605
Speaker 9: I mean, and I think we rarely frame the film

644
00:30:56,645 --> 00:30:57,565
Speaker 9: in those terms.

645
00:30:57,285 --> 00:30:59,485
Speaker 6: But I agree with you. I was watching her. I

646
00:30:59,525 --> 00:31:02,165
Speaker 6: think it's when she goes She's wearing this kind of

647
00:31:02,205 --> 00:31:05,005
Speaker 6: great shirt and she's got this wrap around her waist

648
00:31:05,045 --> 00:31:06,765
Speaker 6: and she strides into a room, and I was just

649
00:31:06,765 --> 00:31:09,805
Speaker 6: thinking about the kind of energy which which she enters

650
00:31:09,845 --> 00:31:12,525
Speaker 6: that room to have her you know, confrontation with Rick.

651
00:31:12,605 --> 00:31:17,165
Speaker 6: I mean, she's she's going to confront him, right. Yeah,

652
00:31:17,205 --> 00:31:19,365
Speaker 6: I agree with you about the way she carries the film.

653
00:31:19,525 --> 00:31:20,565
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think she is.

654
00:31:20,645 --> 00:31:23,325
Speaker 2: But I did want to add that last line. By

655
00:31:23,365 --> 00:31:25,565
Speaker 2: that last line, I kind of wanted her to say,

656
00:31:25,565 --> 00:31:28,765
Speaker 2: back to Bogie, wait, I'm the one who needs perspective here.

657
00:31:28,965 --> 00:31:31,965
Speaker 2: I mean, she lost her husband to the Holocaust, thought

658
00:31:31,965 --> 00:31:34,805
Speaker 2: he died, went through all that grief and heartbreak, moved on,

659
00:31:35,205 --> 00:31:38,325
Speaker 2: found happiness, only to go through more heartbreak, and now

660
00:31:38,325 --> 00:31:41,125
Speaker 2: she's fully committed to him in the cause, despite whatever

661
00:31:41,165 --> 00:31:44,365
Speaker 2: suffering that may cause her. But she's the one who

662
00:31:44,365 --> 00:31:47,485
Speaker 2: somehow needs to understand the consequence of all this.

663
00:31:47,485 --> 00:31:49,925
Speaker 8: This is where you really kind of kind of, I think,

664
00:31:50,005 --> 00:31:54,685
Speaker 8: feel the mechanics of desperate screenwriting at work, you know,

665
00:31:54,765 --> 00:31:56,485
Speaker 8: you know what I mean, where you just feel whatever,

666
00:31:56,565 --> 00:31:59,925
Speaker 8: whatever the whatever, the need was, the perceived need to

667
00:32:00,045 --> 00:32:03,085
Speaker 8: have a line like that, or you know, there's a

668
00:32:03,165 --> 00:32:09,365
Speaker 8: very fine line I think that separates the wonderful individual

669
00:32:09,485 --> 00:32:12,965
Speaker 8: lines often quoted, endlessly quoted lines from Casablanca from the

670
00:32:12,965 --> 00:32:16,125
Speaker 8: ones you don't you know, And it's just I mean,

671
00:32:16,405 --> 00:32:18,845
Speaker 8: it's all the same people writing them, but it's you

672
00:32:18,885 --> 00:32:21,445
Speaker 8: know that happened. I think I think one thing that

673
00:32:22,165 --> 00:32:25,605
Speaker 8: you talked about this earlier, Catherine, when I saw this film,

674
00:32:26,285 --> 00:32:28,445
Speaker 8: really saw it for the first time in high school,

675
00:32:28,485 --> 00:32:31,085
Speaker 8: back in the seventies. It really came as kind of

676
00:32:31,085 --> 00:32:36,405
Speaker 8: this completely bracing antidote to all the cynical seventies era

677
00:32:36,485 --> 00:32:40,125
Speaker 8: stuff I had been seeing my whole you know, young

678
00:32:40,245 --> 00:32:42,565
Speaker 8: movie going life, I mean everything from you know, I

679
00:32:42,605 --> 00:32:45,565
Speaker 8: saw a movie like the Long Goodbye Almans film, which

680
00:32:45,565 --> 00:32:49,005
Speaker 8: is essentially you know, you got it's basically kind of

681
00:32:49,005 --> 00:32:51,525
Speaker 8: making fun of the Boguart image, the way Elliott Gould's

682
00:32:51,525 --> 00:32:55,725
Speaker 8: playing full of Marlow when Bogart played Marlow obviously in

683
00:32:55,765 --> 00:32:58,085
Speaker 8: the Big Site. But you know, it's like I saw,

684
00:32:58,365 --> 00:33:02,725
Speaker 8: I saw all the really kind of rancid, sour, disillusioned

685
00:33:02,765 --> 00:33:07,645
Speaker 8: stuff after or before I saw where all was coming from,

686
00:33:07,645 --> 00:33:11,165
Speaker 8: which is cosa blanca. And is it a guy's movie?

687
00:33:11,205 --> 00:33:13,365
Speaker 8: Is it a is it kind of a boy's life fantasy?

688
00:33:13,485 --> 00:33:14,445
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is, it is.

689
00:33:14,485 --> 00:33:17,285
Speaker 8: And it's also kind of a you know, you know,

690
00:33:17,325 --> 00:33:22,445
Speaker 8: the attractive American male loaner. You know, he's really kind

691
00:33:22,485 --> 00:33:24,685
Speaker 8: of the moral compass and the savior and the hero

692
00:33:24,805 --> 00:33:28,725
Speaker 8: and all that. And yet and yet I think I

693
00:33:28,725 --> 00:33:30,685
Speaker 8: think it's kind of crazy to not look at that

694
00:33:30,725 --> 00:33:34,485
Speaker 8: and say, you know, actually, as you know, you have

695
00:33:34,525 --> 00:33:38,325
Speaker 8: a more at least that character starts from at a

696
00:33:38,365 --> 00:33:41,925
Speaker 8: point A and gets the point B or C by

697
00:33:41,965 --> 00:33:43,925
Speaker 8: the end. He you know it is. It is not

698
00:33:44,165 --> 00:33:48,965
Speaker 8: simply a stalwart, boring American action hero. You know, it's

699
00:33:49,005 --> 00:33:51,525
Speaker 8: a guy who you know, it's as you as as

700
00:33:51,565 --> 00:33:54,725
Speaker 8: you say, it's you know, he's an idealist, he's he's

701
00:33:54,805 --> 00:33:57,205
Speaker 8: kind of a failed idealist at the beginning. And you know,

702
00:33:57,285 --> 00:34:00,005
Speaker 8: you hear whispers about what brought him to Casablanca and

703
00:34:00,005 --> 00:34:02,245
Speaker 8: why did he actually have to leave America. You never

704
00:34:02,285 --> 00:34:04,525
Speaker 8: really learned too many details, and you never even find

705
00:34:04,565 --> 00:34:06,405
Speaker 8: out why why he won't be let back.

706
00:34:06,285 --> 00:34:07,725
Speaker 5: Into the country, into the US.

707
00:34:07,765 --> 00:34:11,725
Speaker 8: But you get I think you get notions, you know, however,

708
00:34:11,844 --> 00:34:15,805
Speaker 8: kind of hammily treated, notions of you know, self sacrifice

709
00:34:15,844 --> 00:34:18,604
Speaker 8: and doing doing the right thing and all that and

710
00:34:18,605 --> 00:34:21,165
Speaker 8: and uh and man's plaining absolutely.

711
00:34:21,005 --> 00:34:21,525
Speaker 4: Little bit at that.

712
00:34:21,844 --> 00:34:24,165
Speaker 6: It's distributed though. I mean, if you want to talk

713
00:34:24,165 --> 00:34:27,565
Speaker 6: about those Bulgarians right, the Bulgarian young woman right there,

714
00:34:27,605 --> 00:34:31,045
Speaker 6: they're Bulgarian ran right, you see her really kind of

715
00:34:31,045 --> 00:34:32,765
Speaker 6: taking charge. I mean, if you want to talk about

716
00:34:33,005 --> 00:34:38,245
Speaker 6: an uneven love triangle, right, the triangle between her and Renault,

717
00:34:38,245 --> 00:34:40,925
Speaker 6: and there's this kind of confused husband who's off losing

718
00:34:40,925 --> 00:34:43,964
Speaker 6: money through letwheel or whatever he's doing, right, but she's

719
00:34:44,005 --> 00:34:46,444
Speaker 6: really taking charge in that relationship, and you can sort

720
00:34:46,445 --> 00:34:48,205
Speaker 6: of imagine a world in which that's ilsa.

721
00:34:48,445 --> 00:34:50,165
Speaker 4: I think that's that's a great point.

722
00:34:50,205 --> 00:34:51,605
Speaker 8: And they had to dance around that a little bit

723
00:34:51,645 --> 00:34:54,405
Speaker 8: because the Haze Code wouldn't the Hayes office wouldn't le him,

724
00:34:54,405 --> 00:34:56,005
Speaker 8: They wouldn't let him spell it out too clearly that

725
00:34:56,005 --> 00:34:59,005
Speaker 8: Renaul is basically, you know, sleep with blackmailing him for yeah, yeah,

726
00:34:59,165 --> 00:35:00,605
Speaker 8: saying you sleep with me and I'll give you the

727
00:35:00,685 --> 00:35:04,045
Speaker 8: letters of transit, a completely fictional, fictional construct. By the way,

728
00:35:04,045 --> 00:35:06,885
Speaker 8: there was no such thing as quote letters of transit

729
00:35:06,925 --> 00:35:09,365
Speaker 8: in this point, and the screenwriters kept kept waiting for

730
00:35:09,405 --> 00:35:11,565
Speaker 8: them to be kind of found out and called on

731
00:35:11,605 --> 00:35:12,125
Speaker 8: the cover for it.

732
00:35:12,205 --> 00:35:12,725
Speaker 5: Nobody did.

733
00:35:12,885 --> 00:35:15,445
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I don't think we want to push the

734
00:35:15,485 --> 00:35:18,085
Speaker 2: comparison too far. But going back to what we started

735
00:35:18,085 --> 00:35:22,245
Speaker 2: with talking about relevancy or timeliness this movie in nineteen

736
00:35:22,405 --> 00:35:26,205
Speaker 2: ninety eight, when I saw it, I appreciated it purely

737
00:35:26,285 --> 00:35:29,045
Speaker 2: as this piece of entertainment and art that I was

738
00:35:29,085 --> 00:35:30,925
Speaker 2: considering and having to write a paper about and all

739
00:35:30,925 --> 00:35:35,085
Speaker 2: those things. But watching it now, when you see and

740
00:35:35,125 --> 00:35:38,485
Speaker 2: hear all the talk of refugees and the sacrifices speaking

741
00:35:38,485 --> 00:35:40,484
Speaker 2: of that Bulgarian couple they have to make in search

742
00:35:40,525 --> 00:35:43,285
Speaker 2: of a better life, and talk of travel permits and

743
00:35:43,365 --> 00:35:46,645
Speaker 2: people being detained in question, and of a country isolating

744
00:35:46,645 --> 00:35:49,045
Speaker 2: itself from the rest of the world, and of a

745
00:35:49,125 --> 00:35:52,605
Speaker 2: resistance to tyranny. It can't help but feel a little

746
00:35:52,605 --> 00:35:55,765
Speaker 2: bit of this time right now. And even more than

747
00:35:55,765 --> 00:35:58,765
Speaker 2: that for me is Michael. What we talked about when

748
00:35:58,765 --> 00:36:02,565
Speaker 2: we did our show, the Live Show post election, where

749
00:36:02,725 --> 00:36:05,325
Speaker 2: we shared our top five movies to console and restore hope.

750
00:36:05,365 --> 00:36:07,765
Speaker 2: And what I kind of argued there was that consolation

751
00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:11,085
Speaker 2: isn't enough, Hope isn't enough. Hope really comes from action.

752
00:36:11,445 --> 00:36:15,205
Speaker 2: And if you're dissatisfied now with our leadership or whatever

753
00:36:15,245 --> 00:36:16,925
Speaker 2: the message we're sending to the rest of the world,

754
00:36:16,925 --> 00:36:19,485
Speaker 2: you can either be rick or you can be Renault

755
00:36:19,685 --> 00:36:22,045
Speaker 2: and accept that this is the way the world works

756
00:36:22,365 --> 00:36:25,445
Speaker 2: and kind of cynically just go ahead with your life

757
00:36:25,525 --> 00:36:27,605
Speaker 2: or even try to exploit it in some way for

758
00:36:27,685 --> 00:36:30,285
Speaker 2: your own gain, or you can actually stick your neck

759
00:36:30,325 --> 00:36:33,285
Speaker 2: out for somebody instead of nobody. And I think the

760
00:36:33,445 --> 00:36:36,725
Speaker 2: value of that message and the vitality of that message

761
00:36:37,445 --> 00:36:42,125
Speaker 2: is probably heightened for certain generations versus others, and we're

762
00:36:42,125 --> 00:36:44,205
Speaker 2: in one of those those times right now. But it's

763
00:36:44,205 --> 00:36:46,605
Speaker 2: also that type of message that I think every generation

764
00:36:46,765 --> 00:36:48,165
Speaker 2: probably could find its own.

765
00:36:47,965 --> 00:36:48,844
Speaker 5: Core totally, totally.

766
00:36:48,845 --> 00:36:50,325
Speaker 8: And this film I got, Like a lot of great

767
00:36:50,325 --> 00:36:54,485
Speaker 8: Hollywood successes, let's say, you can read it any way

768
00:36:54,485 --> 00:36:57,884
Speaker 8: you like, and the politics and the ideology is there

769
00:36:57,965 --> 00:36:58,645
Speaker 8: if you want it.

770
00:36:58,725 --> 00:37:00,645
Speaker 5: I guarantee that in nineteen forty.

771
00:37:00,405 --> 00:37:02,725
Speaker 8: Three, you know, a lot of a lot of Americans

772
00:37:02,765 --> 00:37:05,725
Speaker 8: were probably still not I mean, they were suddenly very

773
00:37:06,005 --> 00:37:09,045
Speaker 8: not you know, kind of like immediately struck by the

774
00:37:09,045 --> 00:37:11,205
Speaker 8: horrors of what it means to send off a son

775
00:37:11,285 --> 00:37:14,125
Speaker 8: or a husband or whatever to war, and they were

776
00:37:14,205 --> 00:37:17,645
Speaker 8: very conflicted about it, even though there was no looking back.

777
00:37:17,685 --> 00:37:20,285
Speaker 8: But I think today, you know, you get when you

778
00:37:20,325 --> 00:37:22,645
Speaker 8: have a president who really is literally rounding up the

779
00:37:22,725 --> 00:37:25,045
Speaker 8: usual suspects all the time, and it's not a laugh

780
00:37:25,125 --> 00:37:28,205
Speaker 8: line like it is when when Claude Raine says it,

781
00:37:28,525 --> 00:37:30,925
Speaker 8: you know, this is I agree. I mean, I mean

782
00:37:30,965 --> 00:37:33,085
Speaker 8: what I what struck me this time watching Cosa Blaco

783
00:37:33,125 --> 00:37:37,645
Speaker 8: was that the the film and Rick as played by

784
00:37:37,685 --> 00:37:41,285
Speaker 8: Bolgart It's really it's really just a Parallel for America,

785
00:37:41,485 --> 00:37:44,245
Speaker 8: kind of blithely not wanting to get into it and

786
00:37:44,285 --> 00:37:46,205
Speaker 8: then realizing, you know, it's the.

787
00:37:46,205 --> 00:37:47,844
Speaker 5: Right thing to do, Let's get in there.

788
00:37:48,165 --> 00:37:51,085
Speaker 8: And you know, I think today when as you say,

789
00:37:51,125 --> 00:37:57,045
Speaker 8: Adam so eloquently, no, truly, I mean that was It's

790
00:37:57,805 --> 00:38:00,445
Speaker 8: it's a film that forces you to kind of reckon

791
00:38:00,485 --> 00:38:02,845
Speaker 8: with this question of you know, you know, luck and

792
00:38:02,885 --> 00:38:05,805
Speaker 8: happenstance and who and where you were born and the

793
00:38:05,845 --> 00:38:09,845
Speaker 8: time you were born in and who's who's what government

794
00:38:09,885 --> 00:38:12,005
Speaker 8: you're sort of you know, you know, at the whim

795
00:38:12,045 --> 00:38:16,685
Speaker 8: of And I think that's why that's why the movie works.

796
00:38:16,725 --> 00:38:19,805
Speaker 8: I think I think it's got this compression even though

797
00:38:19,845 --> 00:38:24,245
Speaker 8: it's complete with fakery. It's back Loot Morocco, you know,

798
00:38:24,525 --> 00:38:27,405
Speaker 8: but it's it. But the casting is what makes it

799
00:38:27,445 --> 00:38:29,725
Speaker 8: feel authentic. You have you know, out of this entire

800
00:38:29,845 --> 00:38:33,485
Speaker 8: speaking cast, there are three American born actors, that is it.

801
00:38:33,765 --> 00:38:36,205
Speaker 8: Everybody else came from somewhere else. And a lot of

802
00:38:36,245 --> 00:38:42,285
Speaker 8: these folks were literal war refugees. As we know, aly's

803
00:38:42,365 --> 00:38:44,845
Speaker 8: a call lost you know, family members in the Holocaust

804
00:38:44,885 --> 00:38:49,085
Speaker 8: who play you know, any number of these supporting character actors.

805
00:38:49,205 --> 00:38:51,965
Speaker 8: You know, they're from Austria, Germany and France, all of

806
00:38:52,005 --> 00:38:54,845
Speaker 8: them and that, and that's why the movie doesn't just

807
00:38:55,005 --> 00:38:56,885
Speaker 8: feel like a Hollywood product.

808
00:38:56,925 --> 00:38:57,525
Speaker 5: It feels like.

809
00:38:57,565 --> 00:39:00,245
Speaker 8: It's it's a Hollywood product, but it's got it's got

810
00:39:00,285 --> 00:39:01,485
Speaker 8: a flavor all its own.

811
00:39:01,565 --> 00:39:04,485
Speaker 2: Yes, Backlot Morocco. By the way, the name of my

812
00:39:04,525 --> 00:39:09,925
Speaker 2: high school band. Catherine Fusco teaches at the University of Nevada.

813
00:39:09,925 --> 00:39:12,285
Speaker 2: A reno for recent book is called Silent Film and

814
00:39:12,405 --> 00:39:16,005
Speaker 2: US Naturalist Literature. Catherine, anything else you want to plug

815
00:39:16,045 --> 00:39:18,964
Speaker 2: any more information about where our listeners can find your work?

816
00:39:19,245 --> 00:39:19,525
Speaker 4: Sure?

817
00:39:19,685 --> 00:39:19,844
Speaker 7: So.

818
00:39:20,085 --> 00:39:22,285
Speaker 6: I will have a book coming out with my friend

819
00:39:22,365 --> 00:39:25,205
Speaker 6: Nicole Seymour about Kelly Reichhart in the next year, and

820
00:39:25,765 --> 00:39:28,245
Speaker 6: you can follow me on Twitter at Fussco.

821
00:39:27,885 --> 00:39:30,605
Speaker 2: Writes Reikert, one of our favorites here on film Spotting.

822
00:39:30,645 --> 00:39:32,245
Speaker 2: So we'll definitely have to have you back on when

823
00:39:32,245 --> 00:39:34,085
Speaker 2: that book comes out. Thank you so much for joining us.

824
00:39:34,165 --> 00:39:35,765
Speaker 5: Thank you great talking with you, Katherine.

825
00:39:35,845 --> 00:39:36,605
Speaker 6: Good to talk to you.

826
00:39:36,925 --> 00:39:38,605
Speaker 7: It might be a good idea for you to disappear

827
00:39:38,685 --> 00:39:41,125
Speaker 7: from because a black up for a while. There's a

828
00:39:41,125 --> 00:39:43,685
Speaker 7: free French Cadison number of prose of you. I could

829
00:39:43,725 --> 00:39:46,685
Speaker 7: be induced to arrange a passage my letter of transit.

830
00:39:47,485 --> 00:39:49,845
Speaker 7: I could use the trip. It doesn't make any difference

831
00:39:49,845 --> 00:39:52,285
Speaker 7: about it. I bet you still only ten thousand francs,

832
00:39:52,365 --> 00:39:55,805
Speaker 7: and that ten thousand francs should pay out expensive our

833
00:39:55,885 --> 00:40:00,125
Speaker 7: expensive mm h, Louis. I think this is the beginning

834
00:40:00,165 --> 00:40:01,485
Speaker 7: of a beautiful friendship.

835
00:40:07,285 --> 00:40:11,325
Speaker 2: That was fun talking about Casablanca with Michael and Catherine.

836
00:40:11,365 --> 00:40:14,805
Speaker 2: Thanks to everyone who checked out that archive episode. And

837
00:40:15,125 --> 00:40:18,165
Speaker 2: if you're listening and you're not a Film Spotting Family member,

838
00:40:18,685 --> 00:40:21,805
Speaker 2: check that out at film spotting Family dot com. Access

839
00:40:21,805 --> 00:40:24,005
Speaker 2: to the archive just one of the benefits, along with

840
00:40:24,045 --> 00:40:28,765
Speaker 2: bonus shows, a weekly newsletter, early access to events and discounts,

841
00:40:28,765 --> 00:40:30,645
Speaker 2: and you get to be part of the Film Spotting

842
00:40:30,685 --> 00:40:34,005
Speaker 2: Family discord. There's a bunch of good stuff again film

843
00:40:34,085 --> 00:40:36,005
Speaker 2: Spottingfamily dot com.

844
00:40:36,005 --> 00:40:36,805
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.

845
00:40:36,965 --> 00:40:43,845
Speaker 7: This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Good Bye.