1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our 4 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: super producer, Mr Max Williams. HIHIHIHI indeed, Uh they called 5 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: me ben your nol and nol. I don't know about you, man, 6 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: but my voice might sound a bit rough today. Uh. 7 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: We were out pretty late for a school night because 8 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: we released a book. We did release a book and 9 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: we did an event wherein we spoke to the public. Uh, 10 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: a lovely gathering of folks that our local bookshop, Eagle 11 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: Eye Books Indicator. The truth is out there in the 12 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: form of a book called Stuff That It Wants you 13 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: to Know. It shares the name with the other podcast 14 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: you and I do with our buddy Matt uh. And 15 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: you can now get this book wherever books are sold 16 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: online or in stores. And there's also an audio book 17 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: do that we read. But yeah, I'm with you. I'm 18 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: a little husky myself now, I mean big boned. But 19 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: we are not going to let uh, We're not gonna 20 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: let a little bit of scratchy throat nous stop us 21 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: because you know there's some things that are so important 22 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: you want to pursue them regardless of your life circumstances. 23 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: There are people who have even run for the presidency 24 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: while incarcerated. Uh. Today we are going to dive into 25 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: the story of an amazing historical figure who may be 26 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: unfamiliar to a lot of our fellow ridiculous story and 27 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: it's a guy named Eugene V. Debs, or Gene to 28 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: his friends. That's right, Gene, that's the that's the familiar. Uh. 29 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: I like that. So it just sounds like like like 30 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: a guy you'd meet around the pub gene Um. He was, 31 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: in fact, early in his career in politics, the leader 32 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: of something called the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen. This is 33 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: this is a specifically fireman that put out locomotive fires 34 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: or the fires. Ah. Yes, So that's sort of a 35 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: fair and high frothty one situation, got it. We'll clarify 36 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: that somewhere along the way. But he was absolutely instrumental 37 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: figure and the modern what we know today is kind 38 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: of the modern labor movement. He went on to help 39 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: found the American Railway Union and the Socialist Party of America. 40 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: So or boy Bernie to his friends, would probably also 41 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: be intimately familiar with this fellow, and I think quite 42 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: highly of him. He also went on to form the 43 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: Industrial Workers of the World. He really is an important 44 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: figure in um, you know, the idea of of fair 45 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: treatment of of laborers. Uh and you know workers and 46 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: a proponent of you know, lessening wage disparities and all 47 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff. Um. One of the more 48 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: important figures of the twentieth century. Uh. In that respect. 49 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: He also ran for president on the US Socialist Party 50 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: ticket five times between the years nineteen hundred and nineteen 51 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: twenty and amassed significant numbers of votes. Uh. Spoiler alert. 52 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: He never actually, you know, won the presidency, but it's 53 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: an inspiring case just the same. No, let's learn a 54 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: little bit about Debs. So Gene is bored in Indiana 55 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty five, Tara Haut side note here, seven 56 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: years after this guy's named Marx and Ingalls published something 57 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: called the Communist Manifesto. I also, speaking of shout outs, 58 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: I want to shout out Mr Max Williams again, who's 59 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: also our research associate for this episode. So thank you backs, 60 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: big fan. Uh. Yes, so Debs Debs is h kind 61 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: of a scarecrow looking dude. He's tall, he's lanky, and 62 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: according to Max, he's lanky like a noodle. He is 63 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: a big gesticulator. He talks with his hands often, and 64 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: he is an electric orator. People are into it because 65 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: his passion is contagious and he actually didn't spend a 66 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: lot of time in academia, I think now in two 67 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: thousand and twenty two. There is a stereotype people sometimes 68 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:59,119 Speaker 1: have about folks who describe themselves as socialist. You think 69 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: maybe they are a bit bookish. Do you think maybe 70 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: they're a bit professorial. Uh, he's none of those things. 71 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: He actually left school at the age of fourteen to 72 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: work on the railroads, which would lead him to some 73 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: of those organizations we mentioned just a moment ago. Uh 74 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: he got he started scraping off paint and Greece. You know, 75 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: it's it's an entry level job. And then he eventually 76 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: was promoted to fireman, which in this case jokes aside, 77 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you're setting trains on fire. That'd be 78 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: a weird job for railroad to give people. It meant 79 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: that you were in the locomotive, your next to the engineer, 80 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: and you're the guy who shovels coal uh to power 81 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: the vehicle. So you can imagine quite back breaking labor. 82 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: I mean, if not breaking, definitely a lot of hunting 83 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: going on. Not great for your posture. Uh. And um, 84 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, a position that could easily be exploited, um 85 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: with you know, low pay, long hours, all of that stuff. Um, 86 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: this is an individual who would shovel as much as 87 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: two tons of coal in an hour's time in order 88 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: to keep that that fire lit in that train a chugen. 89 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: These were in fact brutal hours, very unforgiving, sixteen hour days, 90 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: only one day off a week, inhaling lots of you know, 91 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: gnarly substances, lots of cold dust. Um. You know, eyes 92 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: and lungs being choked by the smoke coming off of 93 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: this thing. And also very very very dangerous because these 94 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: engines could become overheated and there could be you know, explosions, 95 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: and these were combustion engines also, you know, it was 96 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: something that had to be continuous ongoing shoveling or else 97 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: the engine could stall and that could be disastrous for 98 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: the payload. Uh uh and and and everyone onboard. I 99 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: mean it could really you know, because cause a crash. Yeah, 100 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: just so. I mean this is an issue that the 101 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,239 Speaker 1: the issue of working conditions in the rails is remains 102 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: a problem in the modern day. You, if you are 103 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: in the US, you have probably heard a lot of 104 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: the news about how close the rail industry came to 105 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: a full strike. Uh And this, like this description is accurate. 106 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: People are still working very long hours without many opportunities 107 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: for a day off. We also want to shout out, 108 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: by the way, an excellent article Max found from the 109 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: New Yorker Eugene V. Debs and the Endurance of Socialism 110 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: by Jill Lapour. So thank you so much the poor. 111 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: This is already a tough job. But it's a job, right. 112 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: He is being productive, he's making money. Until the depression 113 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: occurs in eighteen seventy three. This is not the Great Depression. 114 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: This is another depression. There are a lot of depressions 115 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: in his three uh. So, Debs has to find a job. 116 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: He's a regular guy, he's got bills. He gets some 117 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: work as a clerk at a grocery store. And he 118 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: never goes back to the railroad as an employee of 119 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: the rail but his experiences there will go on to 120 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: shape the rest of his life. He has firsthand experience 121 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: with railroad work. He supports the cause of railroad workers 122 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: who want more rights. And because of all this, when 123 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 1: the Brotherhood of Locomotive Fireman start a chapter there in 124 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: Indiana in eight, he signs up and despite not you know, 125 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: working for the railroad, he is elected secretary, right, which 126 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: may seem like a menial task, but it really is 127 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: someone that's responsible for a lot of the organizational aspects 128 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: and probably knows the inner work kings of an organization 129 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: more than just about anybody, wouldn't you say, Ben, I 130 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: would say that's pretty accurate. And we can already tell 131 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: he's committed sharp learner. His learning curve must be crazy. 132 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: So while he is not currently working with the rails now, 133 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: not too much has changed unfortunately, right, so he is 134 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: still speaking from a relevant experience. Uh. The first real 135 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: national strike in U S history occurs with the railroads 136 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: in eight. By the way, if you're doing the math 137 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: at home here, folks, Gene is only twenty two when 138 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: this strike occurs, and he galvanizes the crowd that the 139 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: Brotherhood's annual convention with this electric speech and he says, 140 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, the messages primarily that the union is not 141 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: doing anything wrong. The union is not the enemy that 142 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: the that the powers of the day want to paint 143 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: it as. They're not trying to encourage lawlessness. They don't 144 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: wake up every day excited to hold a strike. They're 145 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: just trying to get more rights for their workers. This 146 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: means that after the strike, Deb's remains popular. In fact, 147 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: he's the only officer in the Indiana Lodge who gets 148 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: re elected. He also becomes the associate editor of the 149 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: Locomotive Fireman's Magazine in eighteen seventy eight, and he continues 150 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: to rise through through the organization. He becomes the Grand 151 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: Secretary Treasurer and then also editor in chief of the 152 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: magazine in eighteen eighty. I love this idea. He was 153 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: already the secretary, now he's the Grand Secretary Treasurer. I 154 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: wonder if he was just so good at his job 155 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: they created a new position for him. He was absolutely 156 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: never heard of that before. Um. But also, obviously, you know, 157 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: with his input in the magazine, he's kind of starting 158 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: to help shape the public facing. I mean, you know, again, 159 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: this isn't exactly something that everyone's gonna grab. This is 160 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: more for industry folks, and you know, folks that are 161 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: associated with the with the union, but it is a 162 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: magazine is going to kind of be a way of 163 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: crafting policy and sort of like the more public facing, 164 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: communicative kind of like aspect of an organization. So he 165 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: obviously was seen as a really really powerful communicator and 166 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: and that sort of reflected and some of these jobs 167 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: that he was given at such an early age. Um, 168 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: he starts to enter into a broader kind of politics 169 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,479 Speaker 1: during the eighties as he continued to give these speeches 170 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: just talking about, you know, how important it was for 171 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: industries to cooperate with one another and to discourage a 172 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: lot of this in fighting. Um that I think was 173 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: maybe the kind of thing that the bosses, you know, 174 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: the big bosses and the you know, corporate big wigs 175 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: wanted to see happen. It's like, let's pick these folks 176 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: against each other instead of having them see who the 177 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: real villains are, which is you know us. I was 178 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: jumping in real quick. I was just curious when you 179 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: guys were reading about the look of the mode of 180 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: Fireman's magazine, and I'm like, I wonder if you can 181 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: still get a copy of that, and yes you can. Finally, yeah, 182 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. It seems like a real page turner, 183 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: and it seems probably very pernent to the day. Yes, yeah, 184 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: I love it. This episode is brought to you by 185 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: The Fireman's Magazine. We're kidding as far as we do. 186 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, peek behind our ridiculously expensive podcast curtain. We 187 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: don't always know what chads are gonna play. We know, 188 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: like you're saying. All that Deb's is seeing himself as 189 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: a champion of the common person, right, and he is 190 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: aware that he has the ability city to shape ideology, 191 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: and he tries to work within the system for a bit. 192 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: For quite a long time, he has disavowed socialism, and 193 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: he's saying, Okay, let's focus on democracy, the franchise or 194 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: the vote. Let's see what we can do with the 195 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: two party system. He says, the conflict is not between 196 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: capital and labor. It is between the man who holds 197 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: the office and the man who holds the ballot. However, 198 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: is the eighties grind on. More and more railroad workers 199 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: are going on strike, or they're getting maimed, or they're 200 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: dying because it's a dangerous job. Something like two thousand 201 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: railroad employees a year are killed on the job, another 202 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: twenty thousand, twenty thousand are injured. And this starts to 203 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: make him wonder the exact point you brought up, like, 204 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: maybe these corporations that are backed up by corrupt politicians 205 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: and armed fighters, maybe they're the real enemy. That's right, 206 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: And this all kind of coalesced or came to a head, 207 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: uh during a strike that lasted an entire year beginning 208 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighties six UM, that was pitted against the Chicago, 209 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: Burlington and Quincy Railroad Company. During this time, you know, 210 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: devs really started to look a little bit closer and 211 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: started to see that perhaps these corporations weren't truly committed 212 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: to industrial cooperation and the idea of democracy, um, the 213 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: idea of you know, the power resting with the people, 214 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: the employees. He also thought that up to this point, 215 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: unions is kind of an organized more specifically along trade lines, 216 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: like you know, you'd have a railroad fireman's union, as 217 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: we know, the locomotive fireman Union, etcetera, or perhaps the 218 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: conductors union, you know, whatever it might be. Um. He felt, 219 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: in order to truly get what we now refer to 220 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: as things like collective bargaining, you have to have strength 221 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: and numbers, So you have to organize along broader kind 222 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: of industrial lines, rather than breaking out all of these 223 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: best specific unions that maybe in and of themselves weren't 224 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: going to have enough bargaining power to get the job done. 225 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: If you have caught our earlier episode on the Luddites 226 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: or on the emergence of unions in stuff they don't 227 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: want you to know, then you will see that this 228 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: problem has existed before. Like it. It's the difference between 229 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: having one union for milliners, a separate union for lace makers, 230 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: and a different union for the people who die the 231 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: fabric Why not just have them all be the Union 232 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: of fabric workers, right, or the the Union of clothing. 233 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: So this he's onto something here. You know, a strike 234 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: requires numbers to work, and he understands that the strike 235 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: is the weapon of the oppressed. We know he understands 236 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: that because he wrote that. That's a quote from him 237 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: in and he still didn't talk about socialism at this point. Now, 238 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: for some of us in the audience, that may sound like, ah, 239 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: this guy is uh died in the wool socialist. But 240 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: to him, he prefers the term Americanism. And he says this, 241 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: He makes a good point that I don't think a 242 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: lot of people realize. He says essentially that the American 243 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: Revolution the United States is kind of founded on something 244 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: like a strike. It was the lawmakers, the residents of 245 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: the colonies who said, Okay, we're not gonna work for 246 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: anymore United Kingdom. H And he starts like adding up, 247 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: adding up the amounts of money the very wealthy people 248 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: have versus the amount of money that common people have, 249 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: and he sees, uh some startling discrepancies. Oh for sure, 250 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's unfortunately it's not like this 251 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: has uh changed too much today. The sums have just 252 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: gotten bigger and more disparate. But um, this is almost 253 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: like this this is like the nerdiest joke you could imagine, 254 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: but also really tells a very stark story. He did 255 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: some math about how Cornelius Vanderbilt, the grandson rather of 256 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: Cornelius Vanderbilt, started out with two million bucks, a million 257 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: from his grandfather and another million from his father. And 258 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: he went on to say, if a locomotive fireman could 259 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: work four thousand, four hundred and forty four years, three 260 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: hundred days each year at a dollar fifty per day, 261 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: he would be in a position to bet Mr Vanderbilt 262 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:08,959 Speaker 1: too fifty that all men are born equal. Boom. Also, 263 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: I want to point out so this doesn't slip by 264 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 1: anybody three hundred days each year. So even in this example, 265 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: he Debs is saying everybody needs at least two months off. 266 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: He also acts on this right. He's a man of action. 267 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: So he resigns from his posh position as Grand Secretary Treasurer, 268 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: which paid four thousand a year in and he is 269 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: organizing something else, the American Railway Union. Hey bad, I 270 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: got a question for you. Yeah, should we inflation calculate 271 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: that number? Let's do it, Max, Let's make it happen 272 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: and pope poop people. What a wonderful idea. It's true, 273 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: folks are running the inflation calculator four thousand dollars a year, 274 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: and eight three was one hundred thirty one thousand, six 275 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty one dollars and fifty six cents, So 276 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: a pretty healthy sum of money right to live by. 277 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people say, this guy's making 278 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: the equivalent of six figures. He's hopefully not sweating his 279 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: light bill. But there's something more important than money to him. 280 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: It's the idea of making a more inclusive labor movement, right, 281 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: a more inclusive union. So if you want to join 282 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: the BLF, you have to be a locomotive fireman. So 283 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: what if you're not that, what if you have another job, 284 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: another skill, Well, now you can join the American Railway Union. 285 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: You just have to somehow be employed with the rails. 286 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: He also uh stepped down from his job as the 287 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: editor of Locomotive Fireman's magazine. I imagine this, you know, 288 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: just kind of he was the time thing, but I 289 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: think he also was more interested in the bigger picture 290 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: and UH was less concerned with the you know, specificity 291 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: of that magazine. You know, kind of like again, that 292 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: was a very kind of exclusionary, you know, specific area 293 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: of this whole conversation just around Locomotive Fireman. In eighteen 294 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: nine four, the Pullman Company, which was founded by George Pullman, 295 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: there's another railroad magnate um they specifically manufactured sleeping cars. 296 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: There was a strike at that company because the company 297 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: itself would not negotiate with the American Railway Union officials. 298 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: UH called for boycott of the specific cars across the 299 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: industry and asked that other railroad unions and solidarity backed 300 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,239 Speaker 1: them up with this boycott and refused to work on 301 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: trains that contained in these sleeping cars. So that really 302 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: does show the power here, you know, in numbers, and 303 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: there was widespread support. But it also shows the equal 304 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: and opposite power, if not at times, you know, greater 305 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: power of the industry itself, of the magnates themselves. The 306 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: railroads convinced President Grover Cleveland to send in troops to 307 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: actually force in an injunction against interfering with the U 308 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: S mails they figured out like a weird kind of 309 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: work around. This is all being reported by the a 310 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: f l c i O website, which has fabulous information 311 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: on the history of labor movement. So this led to 312 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: a collapse of of the of the strike. Yeah, it 313 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: turns out that maybe one of the first unions was 314 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: the oligarchy, right the very well to do the plutocrats 315 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: of the world. So not only does the strike collapse, 316 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: but the leaders of the a r U, including Deb's, 317 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: get arrested on conspiracy charges and they get sent to 318 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: jail for around six months. Deb's time in jail. It's 319 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: gonna sound surprising to a lot of us in the audience. Today, 320 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: he's not doing bad. He's running the union office out 321 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: of his jail cell, and if he wants to go 322 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: out of his jail cell, he's allowed to do so. 323 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: He can leave the joint on like an honor system. 324 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: And he is talking to a reporter for The New 325 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: York World named Nellie Bligh, maybe familiar to some folks, 326 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: uh amazing journalists at the time. She went to interview 327 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: him and he said, quote, the other night, I had 328 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: to lock myself in. There was no end. She goes 329 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: on to write, there was no sign of the prisoner 330 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: about Mr Deb's clothes. He wore a well made suit 331 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: of grades we the coat being a cutaway and a 332 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: white start shirt with a standing collar, and a small 333 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: black and white scarf tied in a bow knot. This 334 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: guy essentially is being um is forced to live in 335 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: what feels like an apartment building. At this point, For 336 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: anyone not familiar with the US incarceration system, it is 337 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: kind of extraordinary that you're able to leave and then 338 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: come back. The closest thing there is to that in 339 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: the modern version is a work release program. But he's 340 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: not on that. He could just come and go if 341 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: he wants Debs starts kind of a book club thanks 342 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: to a socialist from Milwaukee named Victor Berger. He brings 343 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: up a copy of Das Capital by Karl Marx and 344 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: Debs and his organizers who are also in the joint 345 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: with him. They spend most of their time reading. If 346 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: you like books, this sounds like a actually kind of cool. 347 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. Man. We talked about doing this 348 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: a book event for the stuff they Don't want you 349 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: to KNOWE book. And one of the questions that came 350 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: up in the audience was about books in prison, was 351 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: about the popularity specifically of a book called Pale Pale 352 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: Horse or here comes up, I see what's that book called? 353 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: Ben Beyond a Pale Horse? Behold a Pale Horse? Correct, Yeah, 354 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: and just now that that was a very popular book, 355 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: and just the topic of reading in prison came up. 356 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: And the idea of kind of being caught in a 357 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: system like that that is uh, part and parcel of 358 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: a greater conspiracy to you know, essentially incarcerate people and 359 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: and and force them into slavery. You know, I mean, 360 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: there's there's there's no two ways about it. Even to 361 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: this day. Um, you know, the US Justice ironically named 362 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: justice system, uh is a form of of enforced slave labor, 363 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: you know. I mean like license plates are made by 364 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: prison labor, and a lot of industries outsourced labor to prisons. 365 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: So to be part of that, especially, you know, you're 366 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: you're a person like Debs, who is is um righteous 367 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: person who is supporting a cause, who is not a criminal, 368 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, who is not out there causing chaos in 369 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: the streets or or are causing any kind of harm, 370 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: has been incarcetrated clearly because he is espousing a view 371 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: that the powers that be do not. Like, what better 372 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: way to empower someone like that than to have them 373 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: kind of smack dab in the middle of this system 374 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: that they're fighting against, seeing all of the injustices, and 375 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: then arm them with literature. Yeah, I'm glad you bring 376 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: that up, because when we're asked the question that our 377 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: book release, I spent a lot of time in the 378 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: answer I had volunteered in the past. I mean, phrases great. 379 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: I agree with everything you're saying. It's a lot of 380 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: what we were saying last night when I volunteered in 381 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: the past with prison literacy programs or jail literally you 382 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: programs depending on where you're at, it's very it can 383 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: be very difficult to get books in if they're not 384 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: religious works. There are a lot of rules about this 385 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: because people know that words have power, right, thoughts can 386 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: be weaponized. There's an alchemy that takes you from the 387 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: page two actions. It's amazing stuff and there are there 388 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: are a lot of good things that come from literacy, 389 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: but sometimes they're not good things for the powers that be, 390 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: the status quo. Uh So it is uh, it is 391 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: a little surprising that they were able to get a 392 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: copy of Thus Capital in in this in this prison. 393 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: But this, uh, I don't know. Now. It depends on 394 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: your political perspective. Some people who object to socialism might 395 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: say that this radicalizes our boy Gene, because he says, 396 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: I had heard but little of socialism before the Pullman strike, 397 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: and he says the reading he did in jail is 398 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: what converted him to become one of the most famous 399 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: socialists in US history. But yeah, but it's not clear really, 400 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: um how that how that change of heart happened. Because 401 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: he was speaking to a commission about the strike earlier 402 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: that year and he said, I don't call myself a socialist. Also, 403 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: I want to point out the president and these powerful 404 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: rail companies. They put them away. They conspired to put 405 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: Deb's in his crew away on conspiracy charges. I don't know. 406 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: Feels like a cover up to me. So uh he uh. 407 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: He also has socialists who are trying to court him, 408 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: get him further on board with the cause, and he 409 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: turns them away. I gotta say them, I gotta say 410 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: well before he gets out in and in Max, I 411 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: know this is this is like your boy. You actually 412 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: call him Max's daddy in the outline. Do you do 413 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: you do? Sir? Uh? Do we think do we think 414 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: that Deb's is being sincere when he's issuing socialism or 415 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: do we think he's kind of like trying to be 416 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: the good kid so he can get out of jail. 417 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I mean, I think that 418 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: his view of socialism is not the same. It's not 419 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: the same as like he look would look like marks 420 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. He's like, I like some of 421 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: these concepts, but I don't agree with at all. Because 422 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: you know, at this point of his career and his organizing, 423 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: he was had been pretty pro capitalistic for most most 424 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: of the time. I mean, he was against strikes for 425 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: a long period of time. I think he saw this 426 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: communist movement. He's like, I like some of these ideas, 427 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: especially the protection for the workers, but I don't like 428 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: this all the way. I think he was like very 429 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: much like I like kind of being in the middle. 430 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: I don't like being all the way to one side 431 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: of all the way to the other. Like I think 432 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: we should use some of these things, and spoiler, I 433 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: think a lot of a lot of stuff did end 434 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: up becoming part of this country, like social security. Yeah, 435 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of where he was. I 436 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: don't think he was. I think it's easy excial people 437 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: who are against his ideas to paint him as like, oh, 438 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: you're all the way over there. You're just the same 439 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: as Lenin and Marx and all those guys, which I 440 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: but I just I don't think he was that. I 441 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: think he believed in these concepts and he was much 442 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: more middle of the road than people want to pay 443 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: him as. Yes, yes, agree can I I want to 444 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: pull out one of my favorite quotations from Gene It's 445 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: one that I agree with wholeheartedly. He has this quote 446 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: where he says, I am for socialism because I am 447 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: for humanity. Money constitutes no proper basis of civilization. That's true. 448 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: That it's true. It's like it's like you always say 449 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: been money is a cult or religion in and of itself. 450 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: And again, so to keep bringing up the stuff that 451 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: I wants you to know. But we have an episode 452 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: coming out about the Saluritian a to the idea of 453 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: like a lost epoch, you know, of interdimensional perhaps or 454 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: just like at least extra galactic civilizations that may have 455 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: achieved industrialization before we did. And the idea of economy 456 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: comes up, and the idea of like what industrialization means 457 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: comes up, and um, I think we all were kind 458 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: of on the same page in terms of like the 459 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: economy is in some ways kind of the nasty byproduct 460 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: of humanity of civilization, and it causes all of these 461 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: toxic problems that then beget more problems. You know, Um, 462 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: there could very well be a civilization that just is 463 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: adapted to sustain itself and isn't about all this kind 464 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: of competition and all of this like other ing and 465 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: things that require forming unions and making sure people aren't exploited. Yeah, 466 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: and this, uh it just hit me, guys. No, Max 467 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: Gene would totally have a podcast. He would have been 468 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: podcasting from jail. It would be such like a low 469 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: tech podcast to like he might record it on a 470 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: computer microphone and stuff, and it have a like a 471 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: million millions of listens. But he would just like scream 472 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: into a computer microphone for hours on end, unaddited to 473 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: just these straight to tape. He's one of those guys 474 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: who gets the veins when he's really in his forehead 475 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: when he's talking about stuff. Here's actually little Key famous 476 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: for that. But but he is not spouting gobbledegook. And 477 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: despite not having a podcast, he decides that he is 478 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: going to get involved with politics. And as you might 479 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: be able to tell by a subtle turn in the 480 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: sound design, this is a two parter. We are only 481 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: uh we've only gone about halfway, not even halfway through 482 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: our journey with you, ge V Debs. We're getting to 483 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: some really startling, exciting stuff and uh no, I gotta say, 484 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: I know, sometimes we don't want to have a two 485 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: parter that publishes on Thursday and comes out on Tuesday, 486 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: but I think this one is gonna be worth the way. 487 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: Yeah it is, and honestly it's it's it's pretty modular. 488 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: The guy's gut like a storied career, and a lot 489 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: of the moments in his life that we're talking about 490 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: are really just kind of representative of moments in the 491 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: history of the labor movement. And I think it is 492 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: appropriate to kind of make it a little more bite size. 493 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: And you know, you and I have been kind of 494 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: slamming away over the last few weeks between promoting this 495 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: book that we talked about in these podcasts out the Door, 496 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: so I think we owe it to ourselves to make 497 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: this one too, partter and and let it hit the weekend. 498 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: But we'll be back on Tuesday with part two of 499 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: Eugene debs Uh, where also I will I will reference 500 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: a huge Deb's impersonator on the internet that I learned 501 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: quite a bit about Deb's is Late or life front. 502 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, we'll do the reference in part two. 503 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: I'll reference the reference in part one and do the 504 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: actual reference in part two. Correct, there we go. Okay, 505 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: as long as we have our order of operations reference wise, 506 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: before we turn into a reference work podcast, we are 507 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: going to call it a day. Thank you so much 508 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: to our super producer, the one and only Mr Max Williams. 509 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: Thank you as well to our research associate Mr Max Williams, 510 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: and to while we're doing the Williams kick, Alex Williams 511 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: who could pose this banging track and Zach Williams are 512 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: one half of our research associate team. Christopher Hastiot is 513 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: here at Spirit thanks to you. He's Jeff Coates as 514 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: always out in the world doing amazing things. That Jonathan 515 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: Strickland the quiz to you, dashing monster. We love and 516 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: miss you and we'll see you very very soon. Hopefully 517 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: you're shadow will dock in our doorstep before long or 518 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: also please never never come again. Uh. He also he 519 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: got stranded on a cruise ship. He was lost at 520 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: sea for a little while. That's a true story. He's 521 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 1: back now, so if you're hearing this, quister, uh, stay safe. 522 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: Also big thanks to Jeff Bartlett's recently appeared on the 523 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: show to tell us about the michelin Man. It's a 524 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: research associate and friend of ours. Let's see. Thanks to 525 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: gene V Debs. Why are we saying thank you? There 526 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: was a little bit of a spoiler in part one, 527 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: but but you'll see why why in part two. You 528 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: don't have to agree with him, but there are some 529 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: things you should thank him for. If you live in 530 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: the United States, we'll see you next time, folks. For 531 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I heart 532 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 533 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: favorite shows.