WEBVTT - US Senator Dick Durbin on ending mass incarceration

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Jason flam. Normally I interviewed the victims of

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<v Speaker 1>wrongful convictions with the aim to inform and inspire action.

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<v Speaker 1>Now we're launching a new series, Righteous Convictions, where I

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<v Speaker 1>will speak with some of today's most prominent and active

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<v Speaker 1>agents of change, people who see the wrong in the

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<v Speaker 1>world and are driven to make it right. We will

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<v Speaker 1>speak with this diverse group of thought leaders and change

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<v Speaker 1>makers to hear the stories that forge their passion for

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<v Speaker 1>all that they have done and planned to do. Our

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<v Speaker 1>first guest found his calling after he had already been

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<v Speaker 1>elected to Congress in the nineteen eighties, when many of

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<v Speaker 1>our leaders acted hastily during the hysteria of the crack epidemic.

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<v Speaker 1>Since those days, he spent much of his time trying

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<v Speaker 1>to undo the unintended consequences of some of the worst

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<v Speaker 1>criminal legislation ever enacted in modern times. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>mention one story. Her name was Eugenia Jennings. She sold

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<v Speaker 1>crack cocaine to buy clothing and food for her children.

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<v Speaker 1>The mandatory minimum sentences a hundred to one, and they

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<v Speaker 1>ended up sentencing to twenty two years in prison. I

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<v Speaker 1>actually visited her in Freble Jail I will never, never

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<v Speaker 1>forget Jason, looking down in her tear filled eyes, and

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<v Speaker 1>she said to me, Senator, if you let me go

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<v Speaker 1>into my babies, I'll never commit a crime again. It's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of thing, you know, it sticks with you for

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<v Speaker 1>a lifetime. Now, having been named Chair of the Senate

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<v Speaker 1>Judiciary Committee, he hopes to be even more effective in

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<v Speaker 1>his fight for reform and equal justice. Senator Dick Durbin

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<v Speaker 1>right now on Righteous Convictions, Welcome to the very first

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<v Speaker 1>episode of Righteous Convictions, a show where I get to

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<v Speaker 1>interview people who are doing amazing work, making a real

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<v Speaker 1>difference for no reason other than that it's the right

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<v Speaker 1>thing to do. And I can think of no better

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<v Speaker 1>person to be our guest on the first episode than

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<v Speaker 1>Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. UM, Dick, Welcome to Righteous Convictions. Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>honored to be on your show. I can't think of

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<v Speaker 1>an individual in the private sector as we call it,

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<v Speaker 1>who has done more personally than you have to bring

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<v Speaker 1>justice to America. And I just started to join you.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for those kind words, and I'm so excited

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<v Speaker 1>to talk to you because justice is on my mind

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<v Speaker 1>and I know it's on your mind, and you have

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<v Speaker 1>evolved in such a profound way over the years, and

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<v Speaker 1>as it's been a real honored to work with you.

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<v Speaker 1>But how did you first become so committed to reforming

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<v Speaker 1>I'll call it our injustice system, Jason, let me tell you.

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<v Speaker 1>As a member of the House of Representatives, I represented

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<v Speaker 1>uh midwestern district in central Illinois. That's small town America.

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<v Speaker 1>The biggest city with Springfield with a hundred thousand population

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<v Speaker 1>and total population in the district around six hred thousands.

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<v Speaker 1>So there are a lot of small towns in rural areas,

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<v Speaker 1>generally conservative, and it leaned Democrat by a little, but

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<v Speaker 1>not by a lot. And so I defeated a Republican

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<v Speaker 1>incumbent of twenty two years. And I was very mindful

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<v Speaker 1>of the fact that I represented people who looked at

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<v Speaker 1>life from a Midwestern viewpoint, a conservative viewpoint. So on

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<v Speaker 1>issues of law and ardor you know, I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>thought to myself, I want to be fair about the

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<v Speaker 1>administration of justice, but I shouldn't be afraid of prosecuting

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<v Speaker 1>criminals and making certain they pay a price. That thinking

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<v Speaker 1>led me to six, of course, when we had to

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<v Speaker 1>deal with the issue of a brand new narcotic called

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<v Speaker 1>crack cocaine. That was a moment that made such a

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<v Speaker 1>difference in the history of justice in America. I try

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<v Speaker 1>to describe it in terms that I remembered as a politician.

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<v Speaker 1>Along comes as a narcotic. It's so cheap, it's five

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<v Speaker 1>bucks ahead, it's so addictive, it's destructive, particularly to mothers

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<v Speaker 1>or carrying babies, and it's sweeping the country. And there

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<v Speaker 1>was a human cry in Washington, do something and do

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<v Speaker 1>it fast. This is going to result in more drug

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<v Speaker 1>dependence than anything you've ever seen as an American. And

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<v Speaker 1>right in the middle of that in Washington, d C.

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<v Speaker 1>There was this one seminal event, This outstanding basketball player

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<v Speaker 1>at University of Maryland, Lynn Bias, who was destined for

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<v Speaker 1>the NBA, overdosed and died. His death had nothing to

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<v Speaker 1>do with crack cocaine, but that was lost in translation.

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<v Speaker 1>It created a political force, a momentum impetus. You would

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<v Speaker 1>be amazed at how many of us voted in favor

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<v Speaker 1>of the bill that was supposed to put an into

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<v Speaker 1>crack cocaine. And the message of the bill was very clear,

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<v Speaker 1>don't touch it. If you touch it and you're caught

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<v Speaker 1>you're gonna end up with a criminal penalty the likes

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<v Speaker 1>of what you've never seen. We're gonna hit you harder

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<v Speaker 1>with this form of cocaine than anything else, a hundred

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<v Speaker 1>to one hundred to one between crack and powder cocaine.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the belief was this law is so powerful,

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<v Speaker 1>we can stop this drug in its tracks. So we

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<v Speaker 1>enacted the law and we were wrong. At the end

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<v Speaker 1>of the day, we found out that not only were

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<v Speaker 1>we filling our prisons, but sadly, the street price of

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<v Speaker 1>the chemical was going down and the user numbers were

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<v Speaker 1>going up. It was a total failure, and as we

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<v Speaker 1>looked at it over a period of time, I reflected

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<v Speaker 1>on it, and I came to the Senate a few

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<v Speaker 1>years later and said, what can I do? And that's

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<v Speaker 1>what started this whole effort to change the law. The

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<v Speaker 1>mistake we made, and it was a hysterical time. And

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<v Speaker 1>the media is complicted in this as well. Here's a

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<v Speaker 1>drug that we now know, of course as pharmaceutically identical

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<v Speaker 1>to cocaine. It just became the demon drug. And in

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<v Speaker 1>this country there is a proclivity to always having some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of demon drug. And then the media runs with it,

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<v Speaker 1>and politicians react, and you have expressed to meet riv

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<v Speaker 1>it lee your deep regret or even shame about it.

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<v Speaker 1>But the differences, you've actually done something about it, and

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<v Speaker 1>you're continuing. You in two thousand ten, right, you sponsored

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<v Speaker 1>the first mandatory sentencing rollback, and I think it was

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<v Speaker 1>forty years in America? Is that right? I think you're right.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that members are right right, because politicians typically

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<v Speaker 1>it's very easy and actually expedient to sponsor tough on

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<v Speaker 1>crime legislation, and nobody up until then had had the

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<v Speaker 1>courage to say, we're wrong, we're going to roll this back. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>the best deal that the Republicans would agree to at

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<v Speaker 1>the time was eighteen to one, and that disparity is

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<v Speaker 1>still in effect to this day. And of course it

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<v Speaker 1>was also not made retroactive, which is crazy. Why do

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<v Speaker 1>we do that? Why do we change laws and not

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<v Speaker 1>make them retroactive? How does that make sense? That is

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<v Speaker 1>hard to defend, but it's the nature of things to

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<v Speaker 1>move slowly for fear that you're going to have a

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<v Speaker 1>Willie Horton moment. Let me be very bluned about this.

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<v Speaker 1>A release of someone who's going to go on a

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<v Speaker 1>murderous rampage and make every politician who voted to release

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<v Speaker 1>that person to pay a price in the next election.

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<v Speaker 1>But in this situation, there were so many people affected

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<v Speaker 1>by it. Just the numbers, I think, Jason tell the story.

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<v Speaker 1>The federal prison population was forty six thousand, grew to

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<v Speaker 1>two hundred thousand in two thousand nine. And this had

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<v Speaker 1>a lot to do with mandatory minimums and the hundred

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<v Speaker 1>to one ratio between crack and powder cocaine. So when

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<v Speaker 1>I finally got into the Senate in a position of

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<v Speaker 1>the Judiciary Committee where I thought I could do something,

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<v Speaker 1>I introduced this Fair Sentencing Act, and I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>take the hundred to one to one to one for

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<v Speaker 1>the reasons you mentioned. Cocaine is cocaine is cocaine, and

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<v Speaker 1>for us to demonize one application of it, there was

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<v Speaker 1>no scientific evidence for that, and we were ruining lives.

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<v Speaker 1>We were putting people away by the hundreds of thousands

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<v Speaker 1>under this mistaken part of the law, and that's why

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<v Speaker 1>we started pushing for the change. I ended up negotiating

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<v Speaker 1>with none other than Jeff Sessions, Yes, the same man

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<v Speaker 1>who became Donald Trump's Attorney general. He was opposed to

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<v Speaker 1>any change of crack cocaine. And we had a negotiation

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<v Speaker 1>session that took place in the Gymnasium locker room for

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<v Speaker 1>the Senate, and it was a morning of the hearing,

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<v Speaker 1>and I said, Jeff, you gotta give me a break

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<v Speaker 1>on this thing. This hundred to one is terrible. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>he says, the best I can do is to one. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>come on, Jeff, you know, bring it down to ten

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<v Speaker 1>to one. No, I can't do that. How about fifteen? No,

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<v Speaker 1>how about eighteen? Well, okay, and you wonder how laws

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<v Speaker 1>are made. That number eighteen came out of that negotiation

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<v Speaker 1>standing in front of our lockers. Later on in the day,

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<v Speaker 1>we passed it ultimately in the Senate, ultimately in the House,

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately signed by President Obama. But it brought down dramatically

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<v Speaker 1>the penalties that were being applied, and it wasn't retroactive.

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<v Speaker 1>You're right, Jason, it should have been. We got to

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<v Speaker 1>that later. I'll never forget you telling me about having

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<v Speaker 1>done a presentation in the Senate chamber, and I am

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<v Speaker 1>I remembering correctly that you actually brought a death row

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<v Speaker 1>cell into the chamber. Not in the chamber, but we

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<v Speaker 1>had had an illustration on the issue of solitary confinement

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<v Speaker 1>of exactly the size of a very limited cell that

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<v Speaker 1>a person would be confined to for twenty three hours

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<v Speaker 1>at a time, so that people can actually just feel

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<v Speaker 1>the moment by standing inside and trying to visualize making

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<v Speaker 1>that your life for twenty three hours a day. It

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<v Speaker 1>really was a issue of solitary confinement. They all come together, Jason.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean they're connected, one right to the other. The

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<v Speaker 1>mandatory minimum sentences a hundred to one, the solitary confinement.

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<v Speaker 1>We had a hearing. After hearing and I brought people

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<v Speaker 1>end to tell the story, I want to mention one

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<v Speaker 1>very quickly, and it's one that you had played such

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<v Speaker 1>a key role as a private citizen in her name

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<v Speaker 1>was Eugenia Jennings, and Eugenia Jennings was a poor woman

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<v Speaker 1>who had had a horrible life experience. She had three

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<v Speaker 1>little babies. She sold crack cocaine, caught for the third time,

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<v Speaker 1>and they ended up sentencing her to twenty two years

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<v Speaker 1>in prison. She was twenty three years old. She had

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<v Speaker 1>sold the crack cocaine to buy clothing and food for

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<v Speaker 1>her children. Didn't make a difference. It was three strikes

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<v Speaker 1>and she was out and she had been imprisoned, and

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<v Speaker 1>her brother had taken her three little kids to raise them,

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<v Speaker 1>and came to testify before a committee. He told the

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<v Speaker 1>story of Eugenia, and it was such a sad, heartbreaking

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<v Speaker 1>story that I ended up doing my best and reaching

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<v Speaker 1>out to my friend, my former colleague, Barack Obama, to

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<v Speaker 1>be honest with you. In the early days of his administration,

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<v Speaker 1>he had some hold overs in the Department of Justice

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<v Speaker 1>who were not giving him good advice and certainly not

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<v Speaker 1>reflecting his value use. It turned out that I asked

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<v Speaker 1>for a commutation of Eugenia Jennings sentence, and he agreed.

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<v Speaker 1>It was the first commutation he had given as president,

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<v Speaker 1>and she was released in after having spent more than

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<v Speaker 1>a decade in prison. Actually visited her in federal jail.

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<v Speaker 1>I will never never forget, Jason, looking down in her

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<v Speaker 1>tear filled eyes, and she said to me, Senator, if

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<v Speaker 1>you let me go home to my babies, I'll never

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<v Speaker 1>commit a crime again. It's kind of thing, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it sticks with you for a lifetime. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure that's a matter of record. You gave her

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<v Speaker 1>a helping hand, and I'll never forget. Are you still

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<v Speaker 1>in touch with her. She had cancer. When she was

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<v Speaker 1>released from prison. She lived for two years, She got

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<v Speaker 1>to see her girl graduated from high school, and she

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<v Speaker 1>was able to live in her own apartment with her girls,

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<v Speaker 1>which was her dream in life, for about two years

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<v Speaker 1>before she passed away. Oh my god, what a tragic

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<v Speaker 1>story all the way around. And it is also worth

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<v Speaker 1>noting it's not talked about much, but the percentage of

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<v Speaker 1>people that die within two years of being released from

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<v Speaker 1>prison in America is extraordinarily high, and it's understandable when

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<v Speaker 1>you look at the draconian conditions that we subject our

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<v Speaker 1>fellow citizens too. How did it get this way, Dick?

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<v Speaker 1>There was a time when there was a focus on

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<v Speaker 1>giving people a pathway to a life when they were released.

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<v Speaker 1>Now it feels like all we do is punish them

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<v Speaker 1>and set them up for failure when they are released.

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<v Speaker 1>How did that shift and what can we do about

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<v Speaker 1>it now? If you look at the course of history,

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<v Speaker 1>in particularly American history, you can see the emergence from

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<v Speaker 1>time and time of reform movements when it comes to incarceration,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're more enlightened and they're usually driven by the

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<v Speaker 1>moral community, whether it's formal religion or people who want

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<v Speaker 1>to raise the discrimination that is clear a part of incarceration. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>let's call it for what it is. Race and poverty

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<v Speaker 1>have more to do with it than anything else, and

0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.880
<v Speaker 1>they have from the beginning of our nation's history. Interestingly,

0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:15.520
<v Speaker 1>at this moment, we're entering a relatively good phase compared

0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:17.839
<v Speaker 1>to where we have been. You take a look at

0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.440
<v Speaker 1>the situation where I end up moving the First Step Act.

0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.760
<v Speaker 1>It ends up being trumpeted by Jared Kushner, whose father

0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.800
<v Speaker 1>was incarcerated. Kushner convinces his father in law to sign

0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.360
<v Speaker 1>the bill. The people supporting the bill include not only

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:38.640
<v Speaker 1>the obvious usual liberal suspects like myself, but the Koch brothers.

0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.319
<v Speaker 1>Many conservatives are supporting it, some because they are libertarian

0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.760
<v Speaker 1>in their views, others because they're tired of seeing all

0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.720
<v Speaker 1>this money, taxpayer money, being spent on incarceration with no

0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:54.120
<v Speaker 1>apparent evidence of success. So we are in a more

0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.400
<v Speaker 1>enlightened period. We have a long way to go, a

0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.400
<v Speaker 1>long long way to go, but we're at least starting

0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.520
<v Speaker 1>to look things more honestly. One of them is addiction itself.

0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.560
<v Speaker 1>We've started to view addiction as a disease that I

0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.760
<v Speaker 1>think is helping us deal with drug crime and drug

0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:24.000
<v Speaker 1>use in a much different context. I want to turn

0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.400
<v Speaker 1>to the death penalty. I mean, I think Florida as

0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 1>a microcosm of the death penalty. There have been thirty

0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.120
<v Speaker 1>one exonerations from death row in Florida, and they've been

0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 1>nine people executed. And then we know that there are

0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.360
<v Speaker 1>innocent people who have been executed in Florida, people like

0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.160
<v Speaker 1>Jesse to Pharaoh. So in the state of Florida, they

0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 1>continue with this machinery of that even though they're probably

0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.960
<v Speaker 1>only getting it right about six at the time. I mean,

0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:50.920
<v Speaker 1>what are we doing well? I can tell you this.

0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.360
<v Speaker 1>I think two things that have been responsible for the

0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.840
<v Speaker 1>most dramatic change in our conversation on criminal justice and

0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:01.480
<v Speaker 1>particularly the death penalty, or videotapes and DNA. All of

0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:06.080
<v Speaker 1>a sudden, we have tangible, real evidence of things that occurred.

0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.480
<v Speaker 1>And it opens our eyes to the fact that for decades,

0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.640
<v Speaker 1>for centuries, we were relying on testimonial evidence and other

0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:17.920
<v Speaker 1>things which were unreliable and often wrong, and sadly, innocent

0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.880
<v Speaker 1>people died as a result of the miscarriage of justice.

0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 1>And the fact that the evidence that was presented was

0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.720
<v Speaker 1>just playing wrong. Well, DNA is giving us something that

0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.320
<v Speaker 1>is specific and objective, and it's doing dramatic things and

0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.840
<v Speaker 1>changing our outlook. You know, I have this conversation center

0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.440
<v Speaker 1>with with people who are protestantly, I say, what percentage

0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.600
<v Speaker 1>of innocent people are you okay with executing? Because there's

0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.320
<v Speaker 1>always going to be problems in the system even if

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.160
<v Speaker 1>everyone was doing their best, And unfortunately that's not the

0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 1>way it is. And it's interesting that the legislation that

0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.280
<v Speaker 1>you're sponsoring, you being, of course from Illinois, Illinois having

0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.240
<v Speaker 1>been sort of a hotbed for this right where the

0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Northwestern law students in the law school found so many

0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.920
<v Speaker 1>innocent people ball on death row, leading to a Republican governor,

0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Governor Ryan actually commuting the sentences of everyone on death

0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.560
<v Speaker 1>row in Illinois. Can you explain what you're working on

0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.240
<v Speaker 1>now that will hopefully put an end to the death penalty.

0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.040
<v Speaker 1>I want to say hats off to the Illinois Innocence

0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.600
<v Speaker 1>Project as well as Northwestern and the work that they've

0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.120
<v Speaker 1>done and so many others for really opening our eyes

0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.400
<v Speaker 1>to the reality of what we face. You mentioned George Ryan.

0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.960
<v Speaker 1>George Ryan, I've known for years, years and years as

0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.960
<v Speaker 1>a kid involved in politics. I watched it. He was

0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:37.040
<v Speaker 1>a conservative country club bay who one day is said publicly,

0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.840
<v Speaker 1>I can't bear the responsibility of ordering the execution of

0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 1>a person. It's I'm going to put an end to it.

0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.840
<v Speaker 1>There just won't be any death penalty in Illinois. Courageous

0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.120
<v Speaker 1>of him, and he paid a price for it. Politically.

0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.720
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people criticized him for it, but his

0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 1>sales caught the wind of public opinion and really started

0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:59.280
<v Speaker 1>changing what we thought about the execution of prisoners. More

0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.560
<v Speaker 1>and more present events over the last twenty years have

0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.720
<v Speaker 1>said they were just not going to be engaged and

0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.639
<v Speaker 1>the death only wouldn't happen on their watch until the

0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:08.920
<v Speaker 1>former President Trump went on a killing spree in his

0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.680
<v Speaker 1>last six months in office with Attorney General barr Uh

0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:16.439
<v Speaker 1>And so I joined with Congressman Pressley, and we have

0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.639
<v Speaker 1>a bill that would end federal deafenitalty once and for all.

0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:21.520
<v Speaker 1>I think we ought to make it clear that is

0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.600
<v Speaker 1>a policy and it's not going to change with the

0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.560
<v Speaker 1>new president. What a difference an election makes. Support for

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.359
<v Speaker 1>the death penalty in America is at an all time

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.560
<v Speaker 1>love right, it's under fifty it is, and it's important

0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.720
<v Speaker 1>to note the racial disparity, and I just want to

0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.760
<v Speaker 1>read something quickly here. The color of a defendant and

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.639
<v Speaker 1>victim's skin plays a crucial and unacceptable role of deciety.

0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.120
<v Speaker 1>Who receives the death penalty. In America, people of color

0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 1>have accounted for a disproportion forte percent of total execution

0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:52.440
<v Speaker 1>since ninety six percent of those currently awaiting execution. It's

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.760
<v Speaker 1>even higher when you look at the US military, it's

0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.080
<v Speaker 1>eighty six percent people of color, in Colorado eighty percent.

0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.960
<v Speaker 1>The US government federal it's seven The seven percent of

0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.320
<v Speaker 1>people on death row are people of color. So I

0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.560
<v Speaker 1>think it's critically important that you're gonna put an end

0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.119
<v Speaker 1>to this. We reached a point where we started looking

0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 1>I did at the death penalty and saying myself, even

0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.920
<v Speaker 1>if you think that any given individual has committed such

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:21.240
<v Speaker 1>a horrendous crime, without a doubt committing that crime that

0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:25.320
<v Speaker 1>they would merit execution, you have to ask yourself what

0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.359
<v Speaker 1>you just cited. How do you explain the fact that

0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.160
<v Speaker 1>it is the racial minority and the poor in America

0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.760
<v Speaker 1>who overwhelmingly are the ones convicted. There's something wrong with

0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.560
<v Speaker 1>the system of justice that ends up at that place.

0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.640
<v Speaker 1>It was in that Supreme Court. Justice Harry Blackman said

0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.720
<v Speaker 1>something which I had quoted so many times. He said,

0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.480
<v Speaker 1>from this day forward, I no longer shall tinker with

0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:57.280
<v Speaker 1>the machinery of death. And those words really summarized his

0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.199
<v Speaker 1>frustration at what you just identified. Despite all of the

0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:06.080
<v Speaker 1>procedural changes, it bottom line turned out that race and

0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:10.200
<v Speaker 1>poverty were driving the death penalty in America and there

0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.720
<v Speaker 1>was nothing he could do to change it. And he

0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:14.439
<v Speaker 1>just said he's going to wash his hands of it.

0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:16.680
<v Speaker 1>He no longer was going to act like he could

0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.520
<v Speaker 1>make it work right. It wasn't going to work right,

0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.120
<v Speaker 1>and as you mentioned, innocent people were going to die

0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.160
<v Speaker 1>as a result of I agree with Justice Blackman at

0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.760
<v Speaker 1>this point in my political career, a lifetime of politics,

0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.800
<v Speaker 1>I will no longer tinker with the machinery of death.

0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.440
<v Speaker 1>What can I say that is that you know, it's

0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.320
<v Speaker 1>just sinking in it. It's so good to hear you

0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:39.560
<v Speaker 1>say it. And I think we're going to see the

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.119
<v Speaker 1>end of the death penalty in America, hopefully in the

0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.480
<v Speaker 1>next four years, not only federally, but in every state

0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.280
<v Speaker 1>that there's so many innocent people that Richard Glossop and

0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:53.280
<v Speaker 1>Julius Jones, among others in Oklahoma, Anthony Panovich and in Ohio.

0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.600
<v Speaker 1>They're innocent people on death rows all over this country.

0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.760
<v Speaker 1>It's something that should trouble everyone of good con I mean,

0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.320
<v Speaker 1>it's exciting to see the public perceptions changing. You're helping

0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.000
<v Speaker 1>to drive that. There's a real awakening. It feels like

0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.520
<v Speaker 1>and I guess what I want to ask you, Dick,

0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.159
<v Speaker 1>before we close. If you could waive a magic wand

0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:18.280
<v Speaker 1>and change the justice system to a more just system,

0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:22.240
<v Speaker 1>what would you do? It's an appropriate question. I will

0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.240
<v Speaker 1>be officially named the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.720
<v Speaker 1>I've been on that committee for twenty two years waiting

0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:35.480
<v Speaker 1>for this moment. I have the thinnest possible majority in

0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.760
<v Speaker 1>the composition of the Senate, and the chance, if I

0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.359
<v Speaker 1>bring an issue to the floor for Kamala Harris to

0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.040
<v Speaker 1>break the tie. But I am excited about the opportunity

0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.200
<v Speaker 1>because this committee, which once I believe was the most

0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:53.200
<v Speaker 1>prestigious and Capitol Hill, has an opportunity to reopen the

0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:58.399
<v Speaker 1>national conversation on so many areas relative to justice and

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:03.160
<v Speaker 1>criminal justice. I have an exceptional group of Democratic senators

0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.080
<v Speaker 1>on that committee who like myself are so anxious to

0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:10.119
<v Speaker 1>finally spring into action and do things. Hold hearings, have

0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:14.000
<v Speaker 1>a national dialogue, come up with good legislation, get it

0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.680
<v Speaker 1>passed and signed by President Biden. I am more optimistic

0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:19.760
<v Speaker 1>what we can achieve in the next few years than

0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.840
<v Speaker 1>most because I know the potential that can occur here

0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.480
<v Speaker 1>in the United States Senate. We have a variety of things,

0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.080
<v Speaker 1>from Voting Rights Act, which really goes to the basics

0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.280
<v Speaker 1>that we just learned were so critical in the peaceful

0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:39.240
<v Speaker 1>passage of authority under our constitution. Issues involving immigration. It

0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:41.760
<v Speaker 1>was twenty years ago that I introduced the Dream Act.

0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:44.280
<v Speaker 1>It's still has to become the law of the land,

0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.439
<v Speaker 1>and almost two million people are waiting for me to

0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.320
<v Speaker 1>finally keep my promise and pass it. I could go

0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:52.680
<v Speaker 1>through a long list, Jason, but I just want to

0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.920
<v Speaker 1>tell you we are in a position now the likes

0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:57.720
<v Speaker 1>of which we have not seen for years. I hope

0:21:57.720 --> 0:21:59.880
<v Speaker 1>that we can capitalize on it and make good things

0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.200
<v Speaker 1>happened for the future of America. Well, Dick, it gives

0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.760
<v Speaker 1>me great confidence just knowing that you're going to be

0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.600
<v Speaker 1>there to guide the ship. Any closing thoughts, just one

0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.840
<v Speaker 1>thing I want to close with Jason Flam I'm honored

0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.080
<v Speaker 1>to count as a friend. I know where your heart

0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.720
<v Speaker 1>is on this issue, and it has made a difference

0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.080
<v Speaker 1>in the lives of so many, so many people, and

0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:26.160
<v Speaker 1>it's made a difference in my life to know that

0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:31.359
<v Speaker 1>you're there when I need you. Wow. Okay, now let

0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:37.880
<v Speaker 1>me just go float off on a happy cloud. Thank

0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:40.760
<v Speaker 1>you for listening to Righteous Convictions. I'd like to thank

0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:44.440
<v Speaker 1>our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburne and Kevin Wardis.

0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:47.200
<v Speaker 1>The music in this production was supplied by three time

0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Follow us on Instagram at

0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:55.679
<v Speaker 1>Wrongful Conviction, on Twitter at wrong Conviction, and on Facebook

0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:59.879
<v Speaker 1>at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Righteous Convictions is a production of

0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:02.520
<v Speaker 1>a bilel for Good podcasts and association with Signal Company

0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:11.359
<v Speaker 1>Number one h