1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: From UFOs to ghosts and government cover ups. History is 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to now. You 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: gotta love paranoia. It's what made this country great. Fear 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: of the reds, fear of getting old, fear of failure, 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: fear of each other. Deep down, we all just want 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: to be the same. Oh, my geneity is Luod. We 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: must destroy diversity and Welcome to the show. As you 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: know that music means that you're in the right place 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: hopefully here with me Ben, our producer Null the Invisible Brown, 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: and our co host Matt Frederick, who is here in 12 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: spirit but right now he's working on a fantastic video 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: episode that we can't wait for you to see. Never 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: feared the show soldiers on. We're here today with a 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: very special guest. Uh, ladies and gentlemen. It's Christian Sager, 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: fellow comic book lover co writer man about town of 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: how stuff works. Hey, Ben, I'm happy to be here, 18 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: and I wish Matt was here. But he's a busy gentleman. 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: He is he is. He is a busy guy on 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: testament to how much quality goes into your series. Oh yeah, 21 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: it's it's it's all him. It's him. I I sometimes 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: I get a sandwiches. Uh. So we're here today to 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: talk about something that fascinates both of us. I think 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: Matt will probably really want to hear this episode two. 25 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: It's a little bum that he couldn't make it. We're 26 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: talking about a very strange episode in American history, right, Yeah, 27 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the beginning of the Comics 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: Code of America that or at least that was used 29 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: in American publishing, also known as the Comics Code Authority, 30 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: started after legislative hearings in nineteen fifty four. And of 31 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: course we opened up with a quote some of you 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: may recognize, Well, what do you think we should tell 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: people or let them guess? Well, that quote is actually 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: from a favorite comic book of ours, of Ben, Matt 35 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: and myself, which is The Invisibles. Is what we kind 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: of brought us in common together on this topic. Uh. 37 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: It's by Grant Morrison, and it's a great series from 38 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: Vertigo from the late nineties. Uh, and it's about all 39 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: kinds of things. I imagine a lot of your audience 40 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: are familiar with it or or would be fans of 41 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: it because most of all it's about conspiraci conspiracy theories. Yeah, 42 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: the idea of what if every conspiracy you have ever 43 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: heard is true and they squeeze it into this one 44 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: story arc in a way that reminded me of the 45 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: Illuminatus trilogy, which is another another fantastic book. Big influence 46 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: I think on Grant Morrison for that. Oh yeah, definitely. 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: So what so that's one of the comics we all 48 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: have in common and listeners. I know it might sound 49 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: strange at first to say, hey, you were looking for conspiracies. 50 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: You guys are telling about comic books, but do we 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: have a story for you. Uh. The comics of today 52 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: right that you would find in your local local store. Uh, 53 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: are radically different in many ways to the comics of yesteryear. Yeah. Absolutely, 54 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: especially from the fifties. But basically if you go by 55 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: decade fifties, sixties, seventies, then in the eighties when the 56 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: direct market really took over, up until today. But by 57 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: and large, the reason why they're mainly different is because 58 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: none of the comics publishers today use the comics code anymore. 59 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: It's slowly, over the last fifteen years, was taken out 60 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: of use by Marvel, d C, dark Horse Image, all 61 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: of the big name players. I think the last two 62 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: were inven and I want to say it was Archie 63 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: Comics and d C comics that finally just decide to 64 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: use their own in house systems. Do you remember, do 65 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: you remember the gold Key comics and e C and 66 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, I loved those as a 67 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: kid because there there was such graphic depravity you know, Yeah, yeah, 68 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: I mean that. And those are not necessarily the gold 69 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 1: Key ones, maybe some of them, but the EC stuff 70 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: is really what got the code started, uh, and how 71 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: graphic it was. There were depictions of graphic violence, monsters, sexuality, uh, 72 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: criminal activity and we'll get into this, but there was 73 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: an idea that by reading these comics, uh, young kids 74 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: were learning how to be juvenile delinquents. They were learning 75 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: how to become criminals, right, how to owt to skip 76 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: school or lie to your teachers. And one thing, and 77 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, Christian gold Key is if anything more, Um, 78 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: their scary stories were more suspenseful, I think than horrific. 79 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: But the the thing that I loved about e C 80 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: as well is that you know, these comics for people 81 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: who haven't read them yet, do check them out if 82 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: you and especially if you enjoy horror. For a lot 83 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: of ec stories, each comic was like an anthology which 84 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: had you know what, three to four shorter pieces in there, 85 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: and the only thing they had in common is that 86 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: everybody in the stories went from zero to a hundred 87 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: so quickly. They were like, hey, I'm I'm tired of 88 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: you being a bully, so clearly the best thing to 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: do is to dissolve you in this line or like, uh, 90 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: there's a classic one. I don't remember the exact details, 91 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: but we're like a baseball team like cuts a guy 92 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: up into pieces and uses his head as a baseball 93 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: to play like a game. And then like you I 94 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: think like other body parts are like bassis or something 95 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, it's pretty morbid, and uh, you know, 96 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: all in good fun, ladies and gentlemen, all in good fun. 97 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: But but the idea which you mentioned there that that 98 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: this would be teaching kids to be jew no delinquents, 99 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: or teaching them how to cut someone apart and use 100 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: their head as part of a game. Uh. Yeah, it 101 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: was a little deeper than that, but there were and 102 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: we'll get into that, but that Yeah. Generally there's the 103 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: idea that the moral depravity of these books with somehow 104 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: uh infect the agency of America's youth and make them darker, 105 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: may turn them into murders or criminals, or uh you know, 106 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: even affect, for instance, their sexuality. Okay, So what we're 107 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: looking at here is a full blown moral panic in 108 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: some ways similar in some way similar to the idea 109 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: of uh, you know, heavy metal music being a terrible 110 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: influence or Dungeons and Dragons being a terrible influenced yeah, 111 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: or even like uh more recently, that national Baseball was 112 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: a bad influence because of the steroid use among the 113 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,559 Speaker 1: players and that they weren't necessarily good role models. Very 114 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: similar kinds of things went on between the government and 115 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: the baseball industry, as went on between the government and 116 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: the comics industry in the nineteen fifties. So okay, yes, 117 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: let's get right to it. What what the heck is 118 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: this comic code? Where does it come from them? How 119 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: it happen? Sure? Okay, So, uh the code came out 120 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: of some legislative hearings that we're in nineteen fifty four, 121 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about those more in detail down the 122 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: down the road in the podcast. But basically, there were 123 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: hearings that were placing comics on trial for what we 124 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: just suggested that they were a bad influence on America's youth. 125 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: Coming out of the hearings, the major publishers that were 126 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: involved in comics decided that to preemptively strike against the 127 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: government and to keep the government from creating any kind 128 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: of censorship program, they would create their own in house 129 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: program that was the Mix Code Authority UH. And basically 130 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: this was forty one provisions that they wrote up that 131 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: purged sex and violent and all other kinds of critical 132 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: standards that people were up in arms about out of comics. UM. 133 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: For instance, respect for government and parental authority was stressed 134 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: a lot, and there was even like grammar police type 135 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: stuff going in there. And you weren't allowed to use 136 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: certain kinds of slang, colloquialisms, um. And you could only 137 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: receive this seal of approval on the front of your 138 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: comic if it passed this group this UH. Basically, what 139 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: they did is all of the companies paid into this 140 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: Comics Code Authority to keep it running as an operation, 141 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: and it had I don't know what the the manager 142 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: of the Comics Code Authority, or we can call it 143 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: the CIA, I guess for the rest of the Yeah, yeah, sorry, 144 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: the c c A. Uh, but he was sort of 145 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: a czar of comics basically, and he had an office 146 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: of of you know, mostly admins who read all the 147 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: comics that these publishers were gonna put out a month 148 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: or two before they happened, decided whether or not they 149 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:16,359 Speaker 1: were morally objectionable, objectionable or not, and then uh subsequently 150 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: signed off on them or sent them back to the 151 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: publisher and said you need to take this out or 152 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: you need to fix this before we'll put the seal 153 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: on it. No smoking, no heroin. Well, although drug use 154 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: was probably a big red flag. I'm sure at that 155 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: point smoking cigarettes was fine. Uh yes, I think smoking 156 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: cigarettes was fine, but you're right, narcotics was a big deal. 157 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: And uh, we'll talk about it again a little bit later, 158 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: but it was narcotics used in comic books was actually 159 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: the turning point in nineteen one that caused the c 160 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: c A to change the code. Huh. So okay, I 161 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, Christian right now, it sounds like a 162 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: dream job to work with this czar and just read comics. 163 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: I don't know necessarily that it would have been, because 164 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: that the people who were reading them were largely uh, 165 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: middle aged women who the comics weren't designed for and 166 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: who were um how do I put this Like, they 167 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,479 Speaker 1: had a very administrative role, and they treated it very seriously, 168 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: and there were struggles between them and the publishers. But 169 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: for the most part, um, they had a sort of 170 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: matronly role. They took on a mother like role looking 171 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: at these comics and deciding whether or not they deemed 172 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: that it would be appropriate for their children. Moral authorities. Yeah, exactly. 173 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: And so these these women and the czar who they 174 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: worked for. Uh, that guy's role changed over time, and 175 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: there were multiple people who held the position. Uh. They 176 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, by and large were making the decisions of 177 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: how comic books would enter the market. Uh. If they 178 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: didn't have the seal, they couldn't be carried by major distributors. 179 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: Therefore you wouldn't be able to buy them, for instance, 180 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: like on a spinner rack and a grocery store or 181 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: convenience store. I don't know about you, but I first 182 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: started buying comics at my local Delhi when I was 183 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: a little kid. Um, and this was back when the 184 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: code was being enforced. Uh So, yeah, yeah, they were. 185 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: They were the gatekeepers who decided what we could and 186 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: could not read, which is interesting because the there there's 187 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: inherent misogyny in comics already, and it's kind of strange 188 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: that at that time the people in charge of giving 189 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: the final call were themselves women and probably probably saw 190 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: a lot of condescending portrayals of women that weren't objectionable 191 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: under the code. Yeah, And what's really interesting about that 192 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: is that it starts because of their role and how 193 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: women were portrayed in comics, especially from the fifties until 194 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: let's say, like the late eighties. Uh, there were really 195 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: two different images of women that you saw. There were 196 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: the femme fatale as that were all familiar with that. 197 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,479 Speaker 1: These were the women who were portrayed as being sexier 198 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: using their charms or or or were drawn in a 199 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: way that maybe wasn't anatomically correct, which is common in 200 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: comic books for sure. Uh. And as long as those 201 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: women were treated as ultimately villainous is then the Comics 202 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: Code authority was okay with that. But the rest of 203 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: the time, women were largely portrayed as being you know, naive, 204 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: nice girl friends, the kind of girl that you'd want 205 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: your son to bring home and marry. Uh And so 206 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: that's where we get like a lot of the superhero 207 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: girl friends of the of the sixties, right like uh, 208 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: Mary Jane Gwent, Stacy, Karen Page, We we've all been 209 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: watching Daredevil lately, Page, who else? Lewis Lane, although Lois 210 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: had been around long before that, but certainly started to 211 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: fit that role more in the during that period of time. 212 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 1: So we se what we're seeing here in a lot 213 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: of ways is uh Art as a reflection of society 214 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: and social efforts to idealize this reflection um if we could, 215 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: if I could be a bit pretentious about it, Yeah, 216 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: I mean I think that that's definitely a valid point, 217 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: ben uh And there are such interesting things that were 218 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: written into the original nine code that were prevented from 219 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: being published in comics that when you think back on 220 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: it and you realize how it was influencing our culture, 221 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: sort of influencing what the limits were of what we 222 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: could think, you know, or what what we were what 223 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: we considered to be sort of a moral authority. I mean, like, 224 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: for instance, here's just one line Policeman judges, government officials, 225 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: and respected institutions shall never be presented in such a 226 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: way as to create disrespect for established authority. So that 227 00:13:55,559 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: is like an immediate moral line in the sand about 228 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: following authority. No crooked cops, no bad senators, nothing like that. Absolutely, 229 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: and I think in some ways that extends to ideology 230 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: as well, right, like no great communist. Oh yeah, that 231 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: was a huge no note, especially in the fifties when 232 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: a lot of superhero comics, especially, we're using communists as 233 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: their villains. You know, in fact, like a um, those 234 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: who are familiar with Captain America and his villain the 235 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: Red Skull with the Red Skull started off as a Nazi. 236 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: Actually the Red Skull started off as a as a 237 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: sleazy businessman. Then he became a Nazi. Then the fifties 238 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: he became a communist. Somehow. His his ideology is just 239 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: shifted to whatever it was that we as a as 240 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: a nation didn't like. There's one thing an evil businessman 241 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: will love, it's communism, right, yeah, exactly, he had he 242 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: if anything else, you know, he had a variety of 243 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: thoughts about other world should operate. Yeah, he is a 244 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: man of many opinions, so so what else like this code, 245 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: which which you showed me, and which is also available 246 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: online for anyone interested. Uh this, at least this first 247 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: iteration of this code had a lot of pretty specific 248 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: stuff about what could be portrayed. Yeah, it did, and 249 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: it's long, so you know, I won't go through all 250 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: of it here, but I did highlight some of my 251 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: favorite bits, and um, if you do want to read 252 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: the code, all three instances of it are replicated in 253 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: full on the comic book Legal Defense Funds site. Highly 254 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: recommend checking that out. And there's also a great summary 255 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: piece on there by a woman named Amy Kissed Neiberg. 256 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: I believe it's how you pronounce her name, and she 257 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: has actually written the definitive book on this, on the 258 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: history of the code. It's called Seal of Authority. So 259 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: if you really want to dive deep into this topic 260 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: and learn about all the you know, behind the scenes 261 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: secrets of the comics industry, that's a great place to start. Fantastic, 262 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: But so here's here's some of my favor writs. Okay, 263 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: you weren't allowed to use the word crime or the 264 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: word horror on the cover of a comic book. Those 265 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: words were not allowed to be written no true crime, 266 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: no true horror, Nope, nothing like that. Um, and it 267 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to especially up here alone on the cover. 268 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: Here's another one that's kind of interesting, specifically dealing with 269 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: horror comics scenes dealing with or instruments associated with the 270 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: Walking Dead. Ironic that that's the terminology they used. The 271 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: Walking Dead. Torture, vampires and vampireism, ghoules, cannibalism, and were 272 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: wolf is um are prohibited, not like cantherpy Nope, they 273 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: didn't really have their terminology down were wolf is um 274 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: right right away. I mean that's borderline racist against lican throps. 275 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: I think it's a very different time, but yeah, so, 276 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: I mean there's very clearly like a line being drawn 277 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: of like these kind of comics are acceptable, these kinds aren't. 278 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: And by and large the ones that weren't were crime 279 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: and horror comics, and those were the ones that were 280 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: published mainly by EC Comics, but also by you know, 281 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: a number of other smaller publishers at the time, and 282 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: the code pretty much got rid of them. Well, um, 283 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: here's some other interesting stuff. They weren't allowed to treat 284 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: divorce humorously or represent it as being desirable. WHOA, Yeah, 285 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: that's an interesting one. Really kind of throws you back. 286 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: You know, it makes me, it makes me wonder if 287 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: somebody was like, had a bad relationship, maybe maybe they did. Yeah, 288 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: And then there's this one respect for parents, the moral 289 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: Code and for honorable behavior shall be fostered. Respect for 290 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: parents Moral Code. So basically all child characters had to 291 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: be portrayed as having respect for their parents. If they didn't, 292 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: book didn't make it onto the stands. Yeah, and it's 293 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: strange to when we think about this moral backlash that occurs. 294 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: You were telling me that a lot of this originated, 295 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: a lot of the public outcry or uproar originated because 296 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: of a trial they got nationwide attention, um, and that 297 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: there were some uh fairly like, what's the best way 298 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: to say it, crucial moments where you know, there's a 299 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: guy holding up the magazine or holding up the comic. 300 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sorry, when you use the term trial, I 301 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: got confused for a second. Yes, that's the that that 302 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: was the committee. That was the subcommittee that led to 303 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: the code being created. Yeah, it was led by a 304 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: guy named St. S. Kifaver Um. I've got notes on 305 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: it for later on. I can we review the rest 306 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: of the but there is um, yeah, that is basically 307 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: what it led to, although there were some minor hiccups 308 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: before that too that caused uh, basically the public to 309 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: be concerned about comics in general, whether it was for 310 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: religious reasons or literary reasons or even um, you know, 311 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: psychiatric reasons, which Dr Frederick Wortham brought in to the table. Yes. 312 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: So okay, So well that's kind of a teaser, I 313 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: guess then for later on the show. But what what 314 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: iterations has the code gone through? Okay? So we just 315 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: talked about the nineteen fifty four version. Then there are 316 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: two others after that that were basically revisions of the code. 317 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: The first of these came about in nineteen seventy one. 318 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: And here's how it came about. Have you ever heard 319 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: of a guy named stan Lee before? Uh, the name 320 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: rings a distant bell. So he wrote a little comic 321 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: called spider Man. And actually, uh, listeners, Ben already knows this. 322 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: But I I went through airport security with Stanley couple 323 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: of days ago, which was really interesting. I got to 324 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: watch t. S A pat him down. Uh. But anyways, 325 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: so in nineteen seventy one, Stanley wanted to do a 326 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: comic book and spider Man about drug abuse. And it 327 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: was going to be about, you know, a character who 328 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: was having trouble with narcotics and Spider Man was going 329 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: to help them out. It was basically supposed to be 330 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: kind of a cautionary tale type thing. It wasn't glorifying 331 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: drug no, not at all. Uh and uh. The idea 332 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: was that Marvel asked permission of the Comics Authority people 333 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: to publish this special issue. They said, can we please 334 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: for this, you know, this one instance work around the code. 335 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: We know it says that we can't you know, portray 336 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: drug use, but we're trying to portray it badly as 337 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: a sort of you know, public service announcement, right yeah. Um. 338 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,239 Speaker 1: And they did not get permission. The Comics Code Authority said, no, 339 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: absolutely not, We're not going to do this. So Marvel 340 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: went ahead and published it without the permission of the 341 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: Comics Code Authority, got out on the news stands. Actually 342 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: had support from the US government to put it out 343 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: there that the the U. S Government wanted Spider Man 344 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: to be this sort of um moral figure that would 345 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: help you know, children learn that drugs were bad. Right. 346 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: That makes sense and uh. As a result, it was 347 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: hugely popular. It's a classic issue of Spider Man, and 348 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: a lot of people you know, look back on and 349 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: the this was. This caused the publishers and the c 350 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: c A to say, Okay, maybe we need to relax 351 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: these restrictions a little bit. Maybe we're being a little 352 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: too strict here, and maybe things have changed in the 353 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: last you know, almost twenty years. Um. So there were 354 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: a lot of shifts. Um. So for instance, like they 355 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: still prohibited the use of horror or terror on the cover, 356 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: but they were a little bit more liberal in terms 357 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: of how sex was reflected in society. Um. Obviously drug 358 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: use based on the Spider Man thing. Um, there's some 359 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: really interesting stuff that changes with regards to remember we 360 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: were talking about werewolf is Um, yes, okay, so this 361 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: is they changed that line, uh so that that stuff 362 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: shall be permitted to be used when handled in the 363 00:21:54,600 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: classic tradition such as Frankenstein, Dracula and other high haliber 364 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: literary works whose works are read in school or around 365 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: the world. So as long as you know, um, your 366 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: monster had some literary grounding in it, it could be 367 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: portrayed in comics. But werewolf is Um, I don't know. 368 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: Was there a classic literature werewolf. I mean not from 369 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: that time. There's ancient literally, there are ancient texts which 370 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: depict the power different near human or near god, things 371 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: change in shape. It's if anything, it's it's an older 372 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: tradition than vampires. I would probably see that as being 373 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: like pagan though yeah, it might be not be Western enough. 374 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: What we really need is it's just like the closest 375 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: thing is like maybe Dr Jacklin, Mr. Hyde is sort 376 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: of werewolf. Ee, yeah, that's similar. But what we really 377 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: need is something that's like a um, a general werewolf 378 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: or a soldier, a soldier being a werewolf fighting whomever 379 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: the threat was at the time, the British Communist. I 380 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: think we got a pitch in our hands. He Actually 381 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: one of the show that I was at this weekend, 382 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: I saw Stanley at somebody was trying to sell a 383 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: comic book called uh Nam Wolf, which was about where 384 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: wolf and I would read that. I would totally read that. 385 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: I think I would too. So so, I mean, we 386 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: have pretty predictable taste in that regard. But so they're 387 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: allowing now, um, they're they're learning that these broad brush 388 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: strokes that had originally been used. Are not going to 389 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: be going to be effective over time, right, Yeah, exactly. 390 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: And but at the same time, a lot of the 391 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: things that we were talking about earlier, you know that 392 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: I specifically cited, are still in there. This stuff about 393 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: government officials being respected and good always triumphing over evil, 394 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: and specifically the word crime being a bad thing. All 395 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: situations within the family unit should have as their ultimate 396 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: goal the protection of the child and the lifestyle of 397 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: the family. That was another one that they That was 398 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: the line they added in for seventy one version, which is, 399 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, similar to what we were talking about earlier 400 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: in terms of children having respect for authority, but it's 401 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: a very very strict idea of what family means. UM. 402 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: Divorce was still a problem. Uh. Drugs had a like 403 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: based because of the whole Spider Man thing. Drugs had 404 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: this whole set of sub bullets basically of like, Okay, 405 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: here's what you can and can't do. Uh you know 406 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: that would that would make it work or not? Um. 407 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: There were also restrictions for advertising matter like, for instance, UM, 408 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: you weren't allowed to have ads that had realistic gun 409 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: facts similes, So like if you wanted to sell a 410 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: water gun, it had to look like a water gun. 411 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: It couldn't look like a real gun. Um. Or even 412 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: advertising for fireworks. They didn't allow that at the time, 413 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: which is strange because they led a lot of weird 414 00:24:54,480 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: advertisements into comics, especially around that around that time, like 415 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: just leading up to the seventies and during the seventies. 416 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: You know, listeners, if you re comics back then, you'll 417 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: probably remember that there would be these two page splash 418 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: ads with a bunch of tiny, tiny ads advertising just 419 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: ridiculous stuff. Build your own submarine. There were all kinds 420 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: of weird things. Yeah, sea monkeys like um. The one 421 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: thing that was really popular in the sixties was like 422 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: physical exercise programs to like make you turn you into 423 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: a strong man, like a kind of Charles Atlas type 424 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: weightlifting body type guy. Um. There were like martial arts lessons. Yeah, 425 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: I was Did you ever order anything from uh? I 426 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: never did. I never did. I ordered comics. I never 427 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: heard like any of the that stuff. And at our 428 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: at our age Wrench we probably those those kind of 429 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: ads had their heyday before we came on the scene. Yeah, 430 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: they were starting to fade away, I'd say probably by 431 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: the end of the eighties, I started reading comics, I'd say, 432 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: like eighty three, eighty two. Um, so yeah, maybe by 433 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: the time I actually had pocket money to spend on 434 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: stuff like that, they weren't really around anymore. There slowly 435 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: became video games. Yeah. Right. There is one big aspect 436 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: so far that is missing from the Comic Code as 437 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: know it, and that his depiction of race. Yeah. So 438 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: that's actually a really interesting factor in the nine revision 439 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: addresses that specifically. Essentially, they again they came to a 440 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: point in time in which d C Comics had decided 441 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: that they were going to eliminate the seal from their book. 442 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: And uh, they were arguing with the Comics Code Authority 443 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: about you know, what should or should not be reflected 444 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: in the in the code around this period of time, 445 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: and as a result, they drafted up a document that 446 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: basically revised the entire code. Uh. And there was a 447 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: task force that was put together of you know, different 448 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: different publishers, people from various publishers at the time eighty nine. 449 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: Of course it would have included Marvel in d C. Probably, 450 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: It's hard to say what other comics were including what 451 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: other comics companies were included at the time Archie, because 452 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: a lot of them were being absorbed into d C 453 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: throughout the eighties, you know, Charlton Fawcett. I think Fawcett 454 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: was even earlier than that. But anyway, what ended up 455 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: happening was they did have this new nine version of 456 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: the Code was very specific about how you could portray national, social, political, cultural, 457 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: ethnic and racial groups, including religious institutions. So there was 458 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: a lot of um sensitivity to how different groups were 459 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: being portrayed, to the point that there is actually a 460 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: line in the eighty nine Code if for dramatic purposes 461 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: it is necessary to portray such a group of individuals 462 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 1: in a negative manner, the name of the group and 463 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: its individual members will be fictitious, and its activities will 464 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: be clearly identifiable within the routine activities of any real group, 465 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: or rather won't be okay, so they can't even have 466 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: a coincidental commonality. Yeah. So, like a really interesting example 467 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: of this, UH was in Captain America in the eighties. 468 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: I've I've done a lot of research in Captain America, UH, 469 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: and UH in Captain America in the eighties, he would 470 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: often come up against these examples of societal conflicts that 471 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: were happening at the time. So, uh so the National 472 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: Organization for Women was very you know, it was growing 473 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: at the time. And to address that, Captain America came 474 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: up against a group of super villain feminists that were 475 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: called the Feminison's Kristen and Caroline over at stuff mob 476 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: never told You Gonna Love You. Yeah, I really want 477 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: to show them those issues because they're fascinating. I think, like, 478 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, the Femisons even like try to 479 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: start their own society on a cruise ship. They like, 480 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: uh like commondeer a cruise ship and take it around 481 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: the world as their own like floating country. Do they 482 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: have superpowers? Yeah, because some of them do. But I 483 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: think they were like, uh, you know, there were the 484 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: Femisons and then they were like the women that they 485 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: were liberating from various in the world. Um so, you know, 486 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: he couldn't address now, but he addressed the Femisons, and 487 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: it was you know, obviously incredibly conservative take on feminism 488 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: in the eighties. And then you know when you had 489 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: Tipper Gore and the Parent Music Resource Center, you know, 490 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: getting into the whole heavy metal thing you're talking about earlier. 491 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: To address that he came up against a group called 492 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 1: the Watchdogs, and it was like this fictional group of 493 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: terrorists who wanted to advocate for advocate for censorship. Uh. 494 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: And they were so into censorship that they would like 495 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: blow people up if they didn't have their way. So yeah, 496 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: and this it's interesting because while Captain America is not 497 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: the by far not the only um story or fiction 498 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: work of fiction to deal with these real life stand ins, uh, 499 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: it's one that a lot of people see, and some 500 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: of it is so on the nose, you know. Yeah. 501 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: One of my favorite Captain America stories, and this is 502 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: actually from the early seventies, is, uh Captain America becomes 503 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: disillusioned with the American government because this is under writer 504 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: Steve Engelhardt, who wrote some of the best Captain America 505 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: stories of all time. Uh, and he becomes disillusioned with 506 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: the American government when he learns that the President of 507 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: the United States is actually in charge of a conspiracy 508 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: organization called like the Secret Empire. And this Secret Empire 509 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: is basically like Hydra from the movies, right, or or 510 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: like the Illuminati, like controlling everything behind the scenes. And 511 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: when Captain America finally confronts him. On the last page 512 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: of this comic, Captain America runs into the Oval Office 513 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: confront it's the President, and the President blows his brains 514 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: out commits suicide after admitting that he's the leader of 515 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: this evil organization. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating that they could 516 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: get away with that. And they didn't show Richard Nixon's face, 517 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: but it was pretty obvious it was supposed to be 518 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon did like the draw of the over the 519 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: shoulders shot they were using like silhouette or something. Yeah. Yeah, 520 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: And it's it's funny you bring up Secret Empire because 521 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: I remember reading that and recently with the with the 522 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: rise of Marvel movies, uh own Empire, I've been thinking 523 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: a lot about the faceless semi corporate conspiracy villains or 524 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: antagonists because there's so many. There's Leviathan, Hydra, Secret Empire, um, 525 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: and they're like five more that I'm not even thinking about. 526 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: There are a lot, especially in Marvel uh And and 527 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: a big reason for that actually is that, you know, 528 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: the writers at the time were critiquing their employers. Uh. 529 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: It was the the only way that they had to 530 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: sort of creatively right. They were writing about political issues 531 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: at the time. Of course there was a lot of 532 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: distrust for the American government during presidency, but there was 533 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: also issues that they had with their corporate masters. Yeah, 534 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: and so they would depict them in these kind of 535 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 1: you know overlord rock Song Corporation. That was always whenever 536 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: there was a problems with corporations or corporate integrity, especially 537 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: the oil industry. Yeah, they would always bring in this 538 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: corporation called Rock Song Corporation, and they they they were 539 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: responsible for everything, right, and they make I think they 540 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: make Uy make appearance in Daredevil. I feel like either 541 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: in Daredevil or Captain America there was a little easter 542 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: egg with Rocks on. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised 543 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: if they show up later on in them in the 544 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: Marvel like Phase three movies or whatever we're running up 545 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: on now. Yeah, somewhere in Wakonda. So yeah, and there's 546 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: advanced idea mechanics Zodiac. Also, you know, one of my 547 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: favorites of course, the Serpent Society. Oh, the Serpent Society 548 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: is the best secret society of people who dress up 549 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: like different kinds of snakes and they all like have 550 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: code names based on the kind of snake that they dressed. Like, yeah, 551 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: and they're a that's loosely related to that snake. Yeah, right, 552 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: Like there's a like a sidewinder, but he's just like, 553 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, a guy with a kate that allows him 554 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: to teleport or something. But I don't know, I don't 555 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: think sidewinders can teleport in real life. No, And not 556 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: all of them had I know, such as tangent, but 557 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: not all of them actually had powers, which is so 558 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: weird to me. There was one guy I can't remember 559 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: who his name was. He just threw like these snake 560 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: shaped silhouette. There weren't even boomerangs. I totally remember what 561 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: you're talking He just threw. But but anyway, so to 562 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: to get back to that, um, I guess what we're 563 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: saying is, although ostensibly a lot of this would just 564 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: be the ame um bang up the bad guy kind 565 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: of comic book, there's a deeper story that was being told, 566 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: especially in Captain America. It's a story about the society 567 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: in which we live. Yeah, I would argue that, and 568 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, I've argued that in academic articles that I 569 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: wrote when I was in school. But but also that 570 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, just that the ideology of the time was 571 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: reflected in that medium, especially because of this code that 572 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 1: the code restricted in such a way what you could 573 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: portray so that you could get broader distribution. Uh in 574 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: a similar way, I guess to the m p a 575 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: A with movies. Um. But what's interesting is as the 576 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: distribution model changes, the code becomes less relevant. So, UM, 577 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: those of you who are familiar with comic book stores, 578 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: their rise was really the late seventies early eighties, and 579 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: they came out of a network of head shops actually 580 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: from the from the sixties. So a lot of those 581 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: store owners kind of conver worded over to comic bookstores 582 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,479 Speaker 1: or like a mixture of the two. Uh. And this 583 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: broad network across the United States of direct distribution comic 584 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: book stores or what people call their local comic bookstore, 585 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: even lcs if you're that you're that into comics line, 586 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: uh r LCS for instance, or my LCS is criminal 587 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: records here in Atlanta, you know, or or I think 588 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: there's also Oxford. You know, there's there's Tighten, there are 589 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: a few around yeah, uh and uh. So the idea 590 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: is that these direct distribution platforms didn't have to have 591 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: the seal on them, So you started seeing a few 592 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: comics here and their experiment with doing gritty, more realistic 593 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: issues that they didn't have the code on, and then 594 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: you had the rise of sort of like what most 595 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: people refer to as the black and white independent comics 596 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 1: of the eighties Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or um uh Concrete, 597 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,919 Speaker 1: Um Love and Rockets, books like that that were very 598 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 1: different from the superhero genre. Uh well, I mean Teenagent 599 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: Ninja Turtles was a parody and a sort of homage 600 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: to superheroes, but but ultimately it was a lot more 601 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: violent and gritty than what we see now in the 602 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: cartoons and movies of that property. Those started to get 603 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: distributed and they were just bypassing the code entirely. Uh, 604 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: they didn't even bother with it. So by the time 605 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: you get to eighty nine and they make this final 606 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 1: change to the code, it's really on. It's it's a deathbed. 607 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: It's last like because because there's something not quite ethical 608 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: about the formation of the code anyway, which we're going 609 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: to get too shortly. Yeah, I think it's important that 610 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: we just kind of cover what it is, how it 611 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: worked first, and then we can get back to the 612 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: sort of collusion aspect, right, right, So this the thing 613 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: here is that this code, as as you're saying, is 614 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: becoming less and less relevant. The only reason it worked, 615 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: the only howur it really had, uh hinged upon relatively 616 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: monopolistic distribution practices. Absolutely, yeah, and in fact, uh that's true. 617 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: But in comparison to the way that comic books are 618 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: distributed in print now, it was far less monopolistic. So 619 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: the direct market had some very interesting stuff go on 620 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: with it in the late nineties. I'm not gonna get 621 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: into it here. It's probably a whole different podcast, but uh, 622 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: it has basically one major distributor for all of the 623 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: stores in the United States, and now they decide whether 624 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: your book makes it into a store or doesn't. And 625 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,439 Speaker 1: it's not based on any kind of moral authority. It's 626 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: more on sort of, you know, will this sell or not? 627 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: Uh we think it will say exactly, it's their opinion. Hunt. 628 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: So so that kind of that practice still exists, but 629 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: the comic code itself no longer exists, right, right, So 630 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: in two thou was in one Marvel uh had been 631 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 1: going through a huge corporate shake up, They had bankruptcy. 632 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: They finally kind of we're starting to get their business 633 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: back in order, and they dropped the code in two 634 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: thousand and one. They said, we're going to use our 635 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: own in house rating system now. So like if you 636 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: look at the back of Marvel Comics on the INDI SHA, 637 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: there's like a little like M or I don't know 638 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 1: what they're They might use an A I think for 639 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: adult or something like that, or T for teenager or something, 640 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what they all these different companies have 641 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: their own rating systems now, so it's kind of oblique. 642 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: But um, yeah, after fifty six years of dominating comics, 643 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: when Marvel backed out, that was basically the end. A 644 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: lot of the independent publishers stopped using it. And then yeah, 645 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, in two eleven, it was January 646 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: eleven when DC Comics was like, yet, we're done with 647 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: it too, were use our own in house rating system. 648 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: Then Archie Student followed after and that was the last gas. Yeah, 649 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: and without any of those publishers around to pay for 650 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: or you know, these gatekeepers to keep reviewing comics anymore, 651 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: the Comics Code Authority closed its doors. And what was 652 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: my question is, was at the same hundred something ladies 653 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: reading the comics fort at that I don't know. I 654 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: think that would be a fascinating story to kind of, 655 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, interview one of the employees who had been 656 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: there for a really long time, or if there was 657 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: a lot of turnover. I'm not sure. So. One thing 658 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 1: that I noticed early on when we were initially talking 659 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,280 Speaker 1: about this, the whole Comics Code, the rise and fall 660 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: of this strange moral authority, was that this group, when 661 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: it was formed in the fifties, UH, did something that 662 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: so many other private industries did, which you can trace 663 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,839 Speaker 1: back to Burns and propaganda. Uh. They picked a name 664 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: that sounded like it was a government thing. Oh yeah, yeah. 665 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: For I mean, I don't know about you, but when 666 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: I was a kid growing up, I always assumed the 667 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,439 Speaker 1: Comics Code Authority was a governmental unit. Yeah. It wasn't 668 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: until I was an adult and started researching this stuff 669 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 1: that I realized that it had, you know, the government 670 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it except for the legislative hearings. Yeah, 671 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: and it happens so often. This. This is an interesting 672 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 1: thing because these sorts of name tricks were just very 673 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: widespread in the fifties. But lest we think that day 674 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: and age of disingenuous marketing is over, all you have 675 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: to do is look up some various trade associations, all 676 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: of which have some very Uncle samish names, and none 677 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: of which our government related. Yeah. Yeah, that's true, and 678 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: that's an interesting I never thought about that aspect. I 679 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: think that's an interesting thing about coming on this podcast 680 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: because you and Matt have such expertise at looking all 681 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: these various kind of machinations over the years, your two 682 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: kind man. Uh, you know, honestly, we we do, we 683 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: do try, but we've got uh got a great team 684 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: of listeners who lets us know when we get stuff wrong. Yeah. Cool. Well, 685 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: I hope that the listeners respond to this episode two 686 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: because I'd love to hear if you know, there's ways 687 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: little tidbit stories out there that add to this unique 688 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: kind of untold story of comics. So, so, okay, this 689 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: came about like we we've got what it is, and 690 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: we know, uh, we know how it changed and how 691 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: it rose and it fell. But what made these people 692 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: so concerned, these teachers, these parents? Yeah? Sure. So it 693 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: started off as a thing in probably like the late forties, 694 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: where there were groups of librarians and teachers and conservative 695 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: religious groups that were accusing comics of being inappropriate specifically 696 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: for juveniles. Uh. And it wasn't because of their effects 697 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 1: on children. They didn't come to that argument until later. 698 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: What their problem was with it was that they thought 699 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: that comics had a low literary quality, that they were 700 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: too lowbrow for children, and that by reading these it 701 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: was basically the equivalent of like junk food. It was 702 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: like read in junk food, and they didn't want their 703 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: kids reading it, so they considered it to be uh, immoral, 704 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: especially because of this, you know, scantily clad women that 705 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: you would find in jungle books, or the glorification of 706 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: villains in in crime comics or horror comics. Um. And 707 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: there was this study in nineteen forty nine that concluded 708 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 1: that children who read superhero comics in particular did so 709 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: to deal with self esteem issues. Now, this study was 710 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: by today's standards, I think we would we would judge 711 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: it as not being very empirical. Uh, But that basically 712 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: the idea was that kids who read comics had self 713 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,879 Speaker 1: esteem problems because they were looked up to these hero 714 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: figures and looked to them for a sense of security. Yeah. 715 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, it was interpreted as being you know, 716 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: an unwanted behavior. In your children. Uh. What ended up 717 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: happening after that was that the publishers adopted their own 718 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: code in this is or the code that we've been 719 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: talking about for the episode so far. They had this code. 720 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 1: It lasted like maybe a year, and it just failed completely. 721 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,919 Speaker 1: The publishers didn't take it seriously. Uh. And again ironically, 722 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: what was then Marvel Comics, Timely Comics just said, you 723 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: know what, We're going to just use our own in 724 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: house code. Thanks, but no thanks, we don't need to 725 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: pay into this thing. Uh. But what shifted the tide 726 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: was Dr Frederick Wortham. Ah, the psychologist you mentioned earlier, right, 727 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: So Dr Frederick Wortham who was a New York City psychiatrist, 728 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: and his campaign was basically that comics shouldn't be sold 729 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,800 Speaker 1: to children. His argument was that children imitated the actions 730 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: of comic book characters and that the content within them 731 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: desensitize these children to violence. And he built up a 732 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: following over this idea. Um. He started off with articles 733 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: and presentations and conference hearings, and ultimately he wrote a 734 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 1: book that you can still get today. It's this fascinating 735 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: read called Seduction of the Innocent. I like the title, Yeah, 736 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: it sounds very saucy. Uh, it's it's it's nowhere near 737 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 1: as interesting as fifty Shades of Gray, but probably a 738 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: more apt title. Uh. Anyways, So Wortham's you know, broad 739 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: argument was essentially that the kids that were reading these 740 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: comics were enamored with gangsters that were in them, or 741 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,839 Speaker 1: monsters or murderers. It would subsequently use these comics as 742 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: a like how to manual to perform these actions themselves. 743 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: And he saw this as sort of leading up to 744 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: the crime problems that inner cities were facing all across America, 745 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: especially you know, in New York City where he lived. 746 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,760 Speaker 1: So what he advocated for was legislation by the government 747 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,759 Speaker 1: on comic books, regulating comic books. And what this led 748 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: to was the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency. This is 749 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: the big hearing, you know, what you refer to as 750 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: a trial earlier um that the Senate staged in New 751 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: York City, And it happened on April one and twenty 752 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 1: two and then again on June four in nineteen fifty four. 753 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: And what they did was they called up a bunch 754 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: of different witnesses to testify about comics. They had comic 755 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: book publishers, comic book creators, comic book readers, and Frederick Wortham. 756 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: They're kind of expert witness, right. And just to be clear, 757 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: the reason I referred to it as the trials because 758 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: earlier we said that comics were on trial. Yeah, I 759 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 1: mean that's that's essentially what was going on here. Yeah, definitely. 760 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: And what was really fascinating about the whole thing is 761 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: that it led to a really interesting conversation between the 762 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: committee and a guy named William Gaines, who is the 763 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: publisher of EAC Comics, who we've been talking about earlier. Yes, 764 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: now he in in in the mind of the committee 765 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,359 Speaker 1: and in the mind of Wortham, is sort of he's 766 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,359 Speaker 1: the super villain. Yeah, yeah, he is in fact, uh 767 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,879 Speaker 1: a little plug for myself here. I wrote a little 768 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: comic book a couple of years ago called Think of 769 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,360 Speaker 1: the Children, in which it is about this period of 770 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: time and these the villain in the store or he 771 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: is William Gaines, and he is an evil like a 772 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: sorcerer who's uh, bewitching the minds of children and turning 773 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: them into little monsters that attack the members of the subcommittee. 774 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,280 Speaker 1: Oh that's great, that's fun. It's a fun story. Anyway, 775 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: what actually happened was William Gaines, UH when he came 776 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: up to testify UH Senator sts Keifaber, who was this 777 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 1: like very publicity minded politician at the time. He was 778 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: from Tennessee. He really wanted to be president, and he 779 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: was kind of famous for going after organized crime at 780 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: this point, so he wanted to use this as sort 781 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,600 Speaker 1: of his new platform for catapulting himself to the next 782 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: level in political stardom. So he goes after Gains in 783 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: the middle of his hearing and he holds up a 784 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,800 Speaker 1: cover to one of the ECS books. I don't I 785 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 1: don't think it was a Tales from the Crypt. It 786 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: might have been a crime Suspense Stories issue. I'm not 787 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: sure which one, but it's it's famous cover now of 788 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,360 Speaker 1: a person holding a severed head of a woman with 789 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: a bloody axe next to it. And he asked William Gaines, 790 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: do you think this is in good taste? And Gaines 791 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,839 Speaker 1: just kind of stammered and he said, well, uh, I 792 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: think it's in good taste for for horror comic and 793 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 1: then he just, you know, I just have this stream 794 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: of excuses and they were really, you know, rhetorically lame 795 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: and it made him look really bad. It made comics 796 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: look really bad. It was on the front page of 797 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: all the papers the next day, and that was essentially 798 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: the killing blow to horror comics, which is a shame 799 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: because I don't know about any other horror comic fan. 800 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: But now, just for some context, now people go out 801 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: of their way to collect and find these uh well, 802 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, they're comic books, so they're kind of fragile 803 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: after a certain amount of time, right, so people are 804 00:47:53,880 --> 00:48:00,919 Speaker 1: going back in a way, this ruling ultimately heightens the value, 805 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,759 Speaker 1: especially because so many of the other horror comics publishers 806 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: at the time went out of business, and you know, 807 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: they didn't think that those comics we're gonna be worth 808 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: anything fifty years down the road, so they that you know, 809 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,560 Speaker 1: we're pulping these books. Basically, um, yeah, it's it's a 810 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,479 Speaker 1: really fascinating, you know, economical model when you think about, 811 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,959 Speaker 1: you know, what came out of this, especially in terms 812 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 1: of how it changed the comics industry too, and what 813 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 1: was being published afterward. So basically, this hearing goes on, 814 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: and I do want to say one thing about Frederick 815 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 1: Wortham before we go too far. He's often vilified by 816 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,879 Speaker 1: comics fans like myself as being this big, bad guy 817 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: who said all these terrible things about comics that weren't true. However, 818 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,200 Speaker 1: I will say that I think there's a bit of 819 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,880 Speaker 1: a debate here if you really look closely at Wortham's work, 820 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:57,359 Speaker 1: he had good intentions. Um, he was largely concerned. He 821 00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 1: had he had moved to the United States from Germany 822 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: after World War Two, he had seen horrible atrocities, and 823 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,960 Speaker 1: he was concerned about inner city kids in New York 824 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: City and the violence that was going on in his community. 825 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,959 Speaker 1: And by and large he blamed comics for this. And 826 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: that's the problem here, is that, you know, he had 827 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,720 Speaker 1: this very single minded solution to to what he thought 828 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:24,440 Speaker 1: was society's greatest problem, and he blamed violence and racism 829 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,440 Speaker 1: and even fascism on comics. And he was homophobic, and 830 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:33,200 Speaker 1: he thought that comic books were, in their own way, 831 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,440 Speaker 1: advocating for homosexuality. In fact, there's kind of like infamous 832 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,719 Speaker 1: quote of him talking about Batman and Robin as being 833 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 1: a sort of you know, he was one of the 834 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,759 Speaker 1: first people to insinuate that they had a homosexual relationship. 835 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,359 Speaker 1: Certainly not the last, No, certainly not the last. But 836 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: it's interesting you say this. So what we're seeing here 837 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:57,759 Speaker 1: is that his intentions are good at base. Yeah, he 838 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:02,440 Speaker 1: was just wrong basically. Yeah. I mean I think he 839 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,360 Speaker 1: meant well. I think he genuinely just wanted society to 840 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:13,319 Speaker 1: be better and safer, but his methodology was was really 841 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: pretty awful. So this led to the self regulation that 842 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,840 Speaker 1: began in October of nineteen fifty four, a couple of 843 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 1: months after these hearings, where publishers all got together and 844 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 1: adopted this regulatory code and you know, through their their 845 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,359 Speaker 1: fees in every month, so that the the team over 846 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: at the Comics Code Authority would you know, uh censor 847 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: their books. How did Gaines feel about it? Well, this 848 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: is the interesting part is that Gains was not into 849 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,480 Speaker 1: it at all. In fact, he initially refused to join 850 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,960 Speaker 1: the group at all. He wasn't going to submit his 851 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 1: comics for review UM. But because wholesalers refused to take 852 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,840 Speaker 1: any comics that weren't didn't have that little stamp of 853 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: approval on them, he eventually had to join UM. But 854 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,799 Speaker 1: this was short lived because uh, basically Gains just kept 855 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: by heads with them. Uh. There was a point where 856 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,879 Speaker 1: there's a there's this infamous story I want to say, 857 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,799 Speaker 1: Al Williamson was the illustrator of it in an EC 858 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 1: comic in which there was an African American astronaut who 859 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,440 Speaker 1: was um sweating. Uh. He was he was like in 860 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,360 Speaker 1: a spaceship and I think he was scared of something 861 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: he was seeing off panel, so he's sweating to condicate 862 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 1: that his fear. Uh. This was rejected by the Code 863 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,799 Speaker 1: because they thought that it was ridiculing race. Uh. And 864 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:32,560 Speaker 1: so there was some interesting issues there. Whim Games would 865 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,319 Speaker 1: argue back and forth with them. Eventually this story would 866 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:40,960 Speaker 1: see publication. But ultimately, you know, Gains was the first 867 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: and kind of biggest casualty of the Code. He folded 868 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,719 Speaker 1: the EC Comics brand, all those horror comics, you know, 869 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: we're taken off the shelves and uh. He ultimately kind 870 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,800 Speaker 1: of had the last laugh though, because he left comics 871 00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 1: and started Mad Magazine and Mad mag Maazine because it 872 00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: was a magazine and not a comic book, couldn't be 873 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,120 Speaker 1: regulated by the Code, and therefore he could get away 874 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:07,880 Speaker 1: with whatever he wanted to in there. And it was 875 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,439 Speaker 1: a huge hit. Yeah, and you gotta wonder what would 876 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,640 Speaker 1: have happened if he went. If he stayed with horror 877 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,200 Speaker 1: instead of going to humor, yeah, I think it would 878 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,919 Speaker 1: have been really interesting, you know, I mean it would 879 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,840 Speaker 1: have changed the face of comics. Comics, Like I was 880 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,720 Speaker 1: saying earlier, the direction of comics changed because of this code. 881 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,879 Speaker 1: Horror was one of the most popular genres at the time. 882 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,240 Speaker 1: Crime was one of the most popular genres at the time. 883 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,359 Speaker 1: Without those things, we see the rise of the superhero, 884 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,880 Speaker 1: and the superhero ends up meeting a lot of the 885 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,280 Speaker 1: regulatory needs of the code, you know, holding up American 886 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:48,800 Speaker 1: ideals and moral standards and not glorifying crime or violence. Well, 887 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: that can be argued, right, right, A hitler punch is fine, yeah, right, Like, 888 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,600 Speaker 1: well that's pre code. But yeah, like well, you know, 889 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: bring him back, Red skullum exactly on it, right, Yeah, 890 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,879 Speaker 1: punching the Red Skull over and over and over. Right. 891 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,800 Speaker 1: I wonder who has the dubious title of most punched 892 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,960 Speaker 1: super villain. That would be a fascinating It would be 893 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: a good thing to find out. Might be the Red Skull. 894 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: And you know, he gets punched a lot for someone 895 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,480 Speaker 1: who's supposed to be so smart, that guy gets clocked 896 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,880 Speaker 1: on a regular basis and he's been around for over 897 00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,120 Speaker 1: seventy years, so the numbers might just be on his side. 898 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:30,040 Speaker 1: So here's here's where we find a little bit of 899 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,080 Speaker 1: a conspiracy of foot. This is not a conspiracy theory 900 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,640 Speaker 1: because this actually happened. You know, the creators of the 901 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: comic code panicked by these hearings. UM could could easily 902 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,640 Speaker 1: you know, smell the coffee on the wind, I guess 903 00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,680 Speaker 1: to butcher a phrase. And uh so they actually entered 904 00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: into this as a sort of conspiracy or collusion, right, Yeah, 905 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: I mean I think that's fair to say, and I 906 00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,080 Speaker 1: think most you know, comics historians would agree that they 907 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,400 Speaker 1: got together. They saw that this was an oppertun tunity 908 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 1: for their interests to push out their strongest competitor so 909 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,040 Speaker 1: that their companies could survive. And yeah, their book lines 910 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,080 Speaker 1: changed too. I mean, like, let's go back to that 911 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,480 Speaker 1: Captain America example for a second. Captain America was canceled 912 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,200 Speaker 1: between the late forties and the um almost all of 913 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,440 Speaker 1: the fifties. Uh, it wasn't until the early sixties. I 914 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,640 Speaker 1: think that Marvel brought him back as a character with 915 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: Stanley working on it with Jack Kirby. Um. Not that 916 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,600 Speaker 1: Stanley created it. I'd like to qualify that Stanley did 917 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,200 Speaker 1: not create Captain America. He was created by Joe Simon 918 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: and Jack Kirby. If anything, he uh revived Captain America. Sure, yeah, 919 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,360 Speaker 1: he was the one who brought him out of the ice. Yeah, 920 00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,080 Speaker 1: there we go. That's fair. But this isn't the only 921 00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:49,640 Speaker 1: comic book related conspiracy. We we had talked and you 922 00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,880 Speaker 1: had a few others as well. Right, there's a couple 923 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,200 Speaker 1: of interesting instances with comics over the years, a lot 924 00:54:55,239 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: of comics history. It's pretty shady, and a writer that 925 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,760 Speaker 1: I admire, who I won't name here, refers to comics 926 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,640 Speaker 1: as being a pirate industry. Uh, and that there's you know, 927 00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,360 Speaker 1: there's a lot of uh high jinks and backstabbing going 928 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,920 Speaker 1: on behind the scenes. So yeah, there's a couple instances 929 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: that let's let's talk about here. So, um, in the sixties, 930 00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,360 Speaker 1: what was then what became DC Comics then it was 931 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:26,439 Speaker 1: called National Periodicals was in charge of distribution for all 932 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 1: of comic books. Uh sorry, I said sixties. This is 933 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,680 Speaker 1: the late fifties. And what this meant was that they 934 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,919 Speaker 1: could decide how many comics of a certain type other 935 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:41,360 Speaker 1: publishers could distribute, So being that they were really popular 936 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,359 Speaker 1: at the time with the Silver age versions of our 937 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,080 Speaker 1: superheroes we know now like a Flash or green Lantern 938 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,920 Speaker 1: stuff like that, maybe Martian Manhunter, I'm not sure. Uh. 939 00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,120 Speaker 1: They they decided, well, uh, you know, Marvel, you can 940 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,920 Speaker 1: only publish six issues a month. You're allowed to put 941 00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,920 Speaker 1: out anything more than that. Uh and uh So Marvel's 942 00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:06,960 Speaker 1: answer to this was the Fantastic Four. Um, they came 943 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,239 Speaker 1: up with their own superhero team, but they were like, 944 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,160 Speaker 1: we're going to do it differently, you know, We're we're 945 00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:16,160 Speaker 1: gonna inject that. This was the Stanley inject that sense 946 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,759 Speaker 1: of quote unquote realism into superheroes, right and uh and 947 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 1: that led to the Fantastic Four, which led to Spider 948 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:28,080 Speaker 1: Man and the whole Marvel renaissance in the sixties. So yeah, 949 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:32,440 Speaker 1: there seems to be such a such a disturbing comparison 950 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,480 Speaker 1: to the recording industry when we talk about these shady 951 00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:42,480 Speaker 1: or questionable business practices. Um, but it doesn't just stop 952 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,360 Speaker 1: at the distribution. It goes deeper than that, right. Yeah. 953 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,400 Speaker 1: So then there's a really interesting story from I believe 954 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,480 Speaker 1: it's the seventies in which UM comic book creators were 955 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,439 Speaker 1: starting to talk to each other about what their page 956 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,640 Speaker 1: rates were to you know, see whether or not they're 957 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,359 Speaker 1: being screwed over by their parent corporations or if they 958 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,520 Speaker 1: could get better rates. Uh. And what happened was Stanley, 959 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,719 Speaker 1: who was editor in chief of Marvel at the time, 960 00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,759 Speaker 1: and Carmine Infantino, who's the editor in chief at DC 961 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,880 Speaker 1: at the time, got together and they drafted an agreement 962 00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,000 Speaker 1: where they were going to share information on what their 963 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,560 Speaker 1: freelancer rates were back and forth so they could keep 964 00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,720 Speaker 1: the freelancer rates as low as possible and keep those 965 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:26,240 Speaker 1: creators from arguing for higher paid rates. And when Roy Thomas, 966 00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:29,720 Speaker 1: who was I'm sorry Stanley was an editor in chief 967 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,040 Speaker 1: at the time, he was probably like a president of 968 00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,840 Speaker 1: the company at the time. Roy Thomas was editor in chief. 969 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,720 Speaker 1: When Roy Thomas found out about this, this that was 970 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,480 Speaker 1: the end for him. Uh. He actually referred to it. 971 00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:42,680 Speaker 1: He resigned for Marvel Comics, and he referred to it 972 00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:48,440 Speaker 1: as being unethical, immoral, and quite possibly illegal. Uh. You know, 973 00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:51,280 Speaker 1: it sounds like it very well could be. This is 974 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,919 Speaker 1: something this kind of collusion is something that has been 975 00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: reported with other companies too. I think Apple got in 976 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: trouble was either Apple or some other tech company got 977 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,560 Speaker 1: in trouble in the past few years for doing the 978 00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,000 Speaker 1: same thing. That sounds about right, Yeah, And if you 979 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,280 Speaker 1: want to learn more about stories like that, highly recommend 980 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,960 Speaker 1: this book by Sean how called Marvel The Untold Story. 981 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,800 Speaker 1: It has got so many great behind the scenes secrets 982 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:21,400 Speaker 1: of how Marvel rose to power and fell and then 983 00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:25,800 Speaker 1: rose to power again. And there's there's one very recent 984 00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,880 Speaker 1: one that we should talk about. It just briefly mentioned. Yeah, 985 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,640 Speaker 1: this is interesting. It's a rumor right now. I guess 986 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,200 Speaker 1: a year from now we're going to look at back 987 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: back at this and laugh, or we're gonna say, oh, 988 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,280 Speaker 1: it is correct. But the rumor is, Uh, Marvel doesn't 989 00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,720 Speaker 1: own the movie rights to some of their own characters 990 00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:47,120 Speaker 1: right now, so X Men, Spider Man, UH, Fantastic Four 991 00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,600 Speaker 1: and a couple of others are owned by Sony and Fox. 992 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,000 Speaker 1: And as we record this now in April, there's a 993 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,640 Speaker 1: new Fantastic Four movie that's about to come out this summer. Uh, 994 00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,840 Speaker 1: And rumor has it that the guy in charge over 995 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,640 Speaker 1: at Marvel does not want the Fantastic Four to do well. 996 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 1: He wants it to fail and Therefore, they're going to 997 00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:14,080 Speaker 1: cancel the Fantastic Four comic book. Uh, They're going to 998 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:20,800 Speaker 1: basically do everything they can to discourage promotion of this movie. Uh. Now, 999 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,360 Speaker 1: this is completely a rumor. Yes, the Fantastic Four is 1000 00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,720 Speaker 1: being canceled. I believe its last issue is this month 1001 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,240 Speaker 1: or next month or something like that. But who knows. 1002 00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,680 Speaker 1: It's comics. You know they'll come back. They could come 1003 00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,600 Speaker 1: back three months from now or something. Who knows. Um. 1004 00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,959 Speaker 1: But the the the theory is that right now that yeah, 1005 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,520 Speaker 1: Marvel is doing this on purpose because they just want 1006 00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,600 Speaker 1: to squeeze out their movie competition. And I have to 1007 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,200 Speaker 1: say again, we we do know that there's a rumor, 1008 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:52,400 Speaker 1: but it makes sense, and the timing makes sense. The motivation, 1009 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,920 Speaker 1: if it was there, makes sense. That might be a 1010 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,560 Speaker 1: little inside baseball for anyone who for some reason doesn't 1011 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:03,320 Speaker 1: love comics. But uh, we have touched on some really 1012 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,479 Speaker 1: really huge ideas here, and I think the biggest one 1013 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: is the concept of censorship, which haunts, uh, which haunts 1014 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,840 Speaker 1: the United States even today. You know, since Ulysses all 1015 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:19,440 Speaker 1: the way up to the modern times, the and I 1016 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:23,560 Speaker 1: mean Ulysses the James Joyce book, not the UH not Ulysses, 1017 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,240 Speaker 1: not the mythical hero, not the mythical hero ever since 1018 01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:31,520 Speaker 1: he came to Jersey. Um. But but we also see 1019 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,560 Speaker 1: that there's there's a reason for this because we see 1020 01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:40,240 Speaker 1: that powerful forces, authority figures are actively working um to 1021 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:45,560 Speaker 1: shape the minds of readers. Right. Definitely, whether in you know, 1022 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,360 Speaker 1: in this case, at the beginning of the of the 1023 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:54,280 Speaker 1: comic situation, it was religious groups or moral groups parents, 1024 01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,720 Speaker 1: but that but it really got legs when the government 1025 01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,280 Speaker 1: took a look at it and then sbsequently the companies 1026 01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,840 Speaker 1: themselves said we can take advantage of this and we 1027 01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,840 Speaker 1: can use it to increase our sales. So now this 1028 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,520 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite parts of the show towards 1029 01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,400 Speaker 1: the end is I want to just ask the big question, 1030 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,400 Speaker 1: and we don't have to have studies. It is just 1031 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,919 Speaker 1: your opinion, uh and and mine as well, What if 1032 01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:25,800 Speaker 1: any influence do you believe fiction has on people's behavior. 1033 01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,640 Speaker 1: This is a very contentious question to ask, especially if 1034 01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,280 Speaker 1: you're going to ask an academic setting, because there's a 1035 01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:37,640 Speaker 1: question of human agency and how much we have agency 1036 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,720 Speaker 1: beyond the media that we consume. Right, So the idea 1037 01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:46,360 Speaker 1: that media can make us do something is very deterministic. However, 1038 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,800 Speaker 1: I uh, you know, in my academic work really investigated 1039 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:57,480 Speaker 1: this idea that ideology and and uh national culture especially 1040 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:04,000 Speaker 1: was informed by or subsequently informed our popular culture. So yeah, 1041 01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:06,400 Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's something that's worth looking 1042 01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 1: at um over the years. You see, you know, especially 1043 01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,440 Speaker 1: with the Code as an example, it's perfect example of 1044 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:18,240 Speaker 1: what restrictions we are allowed to consume in our media, 1045 01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,720 Speaker 1: and then when those restrictions are lifted or how they change. 1046 01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:26,360 Speaker 1: You know, there's just interesting flux. Is like the whole 1047 01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:30,680 Speaker 1: um is something that you often hear people from European 1048 01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,760 Speaker 1: countries say that they don't get about television in the US. 1049 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:39,560 Speaker 1: Is this uh propensity for violence, this glorification of violence 1050 01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:45,160 Speaker 1: is deeply, deeply troubled relationship with sexuality. If Frederick Wortham 1051 01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:47,680 Speaker 1: were alive today and he saw television, you'd probably have 1052 01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:50,400 Speaker 1: a heart attack and die all over again. Yeah, I 1053 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:55,040 Speaker 1: mean the stuff that we consume now, which I love, 1054 01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,720 Speaker 1: by the way, and I'm a huge fan of violence 1055 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:04,200 Speaker 1: and graphic anything if it's used to tell a good story. Uh, 1056 01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:08,760 Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's very different from what our 1057 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:13,959 Speaker 1: moral sort of code allowed fifty sixty years ago, and 1058 01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:18,120 Speaker 1: I think that we're seeing this evolution still. So listeners, 1059 01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,560 Speaker 1: we hope that you enjoy this episode, and we'd like 1060 01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:24,200 Speaker 1: to hear your stories from your country, from your town 1061 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,120 Speaker 1: about the ways in which you think the media or 1062 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:33,400 Speaker 1: any media is being used to shape behavior or ideology. 1063 01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:36,480 Speaker 1: And Christian has been a huge pleasure to have you 1064 01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,240 Speaker 1: on the show today. So I have to ask, um, 1065 01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,680 Speaker 1: is it okay if I plug that latest Stuff to 1066 01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:45,880 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind episode? Yeah? Sure, Okay, So you guys, Uh, 1067 01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,560 Speaker 1: Christian worked with our friends over It's Stuff to Blow 1068 01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:52,080 Speaker 1: Your Mind to do a fantastic episode on Grim Noise, 1069 01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:54,480 Speaker 1: and uh, when Matt and I heard it, we thought 1070 01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,040 Speaker 1: this would be perfect for our audience too. What do 1071 01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,040 Speaker 1: you guys talk about now? Yeah, Robert and I talked 1072 01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:04,720 Speaker 1: about the history of magical texts going back to zero 1073 01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:10,280 Speaker 1: BC DC. Uh. Yeah, just the basis for all these 1074 01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:17,480 Speaker 1: old tomb tomes sorry of magical spells or rituals or 1075 01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:22,240 Speaker 1: demon summoning or angel knowledge, all kinds of weird stuff 1076 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:24,640 Speaker 1: throughout history. And how you know, it's kind of similar 1077 01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:26,600 Speaker 1: to what we're talking about now. Actually, is that like 1078 01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:29,600 Speaker 1: the written word that was in those books at that 1079 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,280 Speaker 1: time was strongly considered to be to have us an 1080 01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:37,080 Speaker 1: effect on the people that read it and were subsequently burned. 1081 01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:41,120 Speaker 1: And you can find that. You can find that episode. Uh, 1082 01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,400 Speaker 1: let's see, we're we're all over the internet. You can 1083 01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,640 Speaker 1: find that episode on iTunes, Stitcher, your streaming service of choice. 1084 01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,360 Speaker 1: And while you are online, if you would like to 1085 01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,600 Speaker 1: listen to more episodes of stuff they Don't Want you 1086 01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:54,960 Speaker 1: to Know, you can find everyone we've ever done on 1087 01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,200 Speaker 1: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know dot com. You 1088 01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,360 Speaker 1: can hang out with us on Facebook and Twitter, where 1089 01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:01,680 Speaker 1: you'll see all the things that don't make it to 1090 01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:05,040 Speaker 1: air for one reason or another. And if you say, hey, guys, 1091 01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:06,920 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you and hang out, but 1092 01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 1: I don't trust social media, we of all people get it, 1093 01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,160 Speaker 1: and that is why you can send us an email directly. 1094 01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:19,960 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com. For 1095 01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:24,360 Speaker 1: more on this topic another unexplained phenomenon, visit YouTube dot 1096 01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,800 Speaker 1: com slash conspiracy Stuff. You can also get in touch 1097 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,720 Speaker 1: on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy Stuff