1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: What foreign my policy. I don't know. 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 2: I don't know, Guys, I don't know. I got like 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 2: trapped into this like pattern of doing introductions a certain way, 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 2: and I don't really I don't really feel good about it. 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: But how do you? How does one break their patterns? 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: Speaking of patterns, let's talk about Syria. 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Beautiful. 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand what that meant. 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 4: I feel like one of the basketball guys when someone 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 4: lays him up and then he just does a dunk. 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: That's what I feel like. I don't know about Green 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: Green Bay Packers swish mm. 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 4: Hmmm, yep, go Tom Brady, okay, uh okay, sports sports 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 4: talk aside. I'm wearing my Rwanda football shirt today. We 15 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 4: were gathered here today and to talk about Turkey strone 16 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 4: strikes on their stye. 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Y yay, not funny, not funny, yeah, the sday funny. 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: We're talking about like Turkish the continued Turkish military operations 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: across their border in northeast Syria, the area commonly known 20 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: as ro Java, and also in southern Turkey as well. 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. 22 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, So just to give some numbers around this to 23 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 4: start off right, and you're twenty twenty two, which there 24 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 4: wasn't a territorial offensive, so like you're not seeing like 25 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 4: troops on the ground. Turkey carried out one hundred and 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 4: thirty drone strikes in the Autonomous Administration of North East Syria. Yeah, 27 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 4: that's the place is more commonly known as Rojova, and 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 4: they killed at least eight WYPPJ members and sort of 29 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 4: WIPJ would be the Women's Protection Forces who are a 30 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 4: unit within the Syrian Democratic Forces, which is the armed 31 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 4: forces of the an E s Autonomous Area Northeast Aria. 32 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 4: I will come at you really hard with acronyms in this. 33 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 4: I think if people haven't listened to Roberts series Women's War, 34 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 4: maybe the Women's War, that would be a good place 35 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 4: to start, because like we only have half an hour 36 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 4: of forty five minutes or whatever, and we can't explain 37 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 4: an extremely complicated conflict which has been going on for 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 4: twelve years in that time. So I think some grounding 39 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 4: in who is who and what is what you can 40 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 4: find it there, I guess. But it's that a fair 41 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 4: summary of who those people are. Robert. 42 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, so you had kind of the gist of 43 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: the story is that for a very long time, starting 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: in southern Turkey, there's been a Kurdish militant group called 45 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 2: the PKK. They were way back in the day, originally Maoist. 46 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: They had a bunch of internal power struggles within their 47 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 2: own organization and then wound up taking a pretty wide 48 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: turn away from Maoism towards a kind of political theory 49 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 2: heavily influenced by the work of an American anarchist thinker 50 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 2: named Murray Bukchin. This was largely due to the fact 51 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: that their leader, a guy named abdolah Ajalon, got while 52 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: he was in Turkish prison kind of pilled on a 53 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: lot of these this kind of like fringe American libertarian 54 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: ish sort of political philosophy. Yeah, with this basically the 55 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: gist of it is this this kind of this kind 56 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: of synthetic, this kind of synthesis of a lot of 57 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: Bukchen's ideas with some of the stuff that Agelog had 58 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: been had been thinking about for years, kind of culminated 59 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: in uh political philosophy called libertarian municipalism, which is more 60 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: or less the governing philosophy that these different armed militant 61 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: organizations kind of clustered around the PKK in Northeast Syria 62 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: because the PKK for years were just kind of like 63 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: crossed the border in the northeast Syria when they were 64 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: fighting with the Turk and they had to get away, 65 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: and they had a bunch of inroads with local Kurdish 66 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: organizations in northeast Syria. And when the Asad regime pulled 67 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: out of the area in the early stages of the 68 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: Syrian Civil War, a lot of these groups that were 69 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 2: affiliated with the p PKK were kind of the best 70 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: organized organizations in the area, and so they took over 71 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: a lot of civil administration and basing a lot of 72 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: their their plans and you know, functional activities around these 73 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: ideas that Ajalon had been you know, writing about for 74 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: years and years, and so you kind of have this 75 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: mix of all these armed organizations that are to some 76 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: extent descended from the PKK, but are now much broader 77 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: than just sort of a Kurdish liberatory organization. These are 78 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: the folks who fought and defeated ISIS in northeast Syria. Yeah, 79 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: that's I don't know, there's there's so much to get into, 80 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 2: but I guess that's kind of the the broad strokes 81 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 2: and all of these different because there's a bunch of 82 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 2: different militias. You know, there's there's militias that are kind 83 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: of more traditionalist Arab militias. There's there's Armenian militias in 84 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 2: the area. There's obviously these Kurdish militias, the YPG and 85 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: the YPG primarily Kurdish militias, but they all fight under 86 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 2: the banner of the SDF and to the Turks, they're 87 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: all the PKK. 88 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm glad you mentioned all the different militias and stuff, 89 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 3: because it gets really confusing, like even I mean, I'm 90 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: Syrian and I'm just like, I cannot keep up. I 91 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: talked to my parents about it too, and they're just like, 92 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 3: that's it's it's complicated. So I think you did a 93 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 3: good job breaking that down. I also want to mention 94 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: they were the only people fighting ISIS in Syria. Yeah, 95 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 3: so I think it's pretty notable to mention. Yeah. 96 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I got a list of the found in groups 97 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 4: of the SDF. So this happens in twenty fifteen, right, 98 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 4: sort of earlier in the fight against ISIS, and some 99 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 4: of these groups had this sended. Latrin said, not from 100 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 4: the YPJ or the YPG. And Robbie said this to 101 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 4: you that they come from the FSA, the Free Syrian Army, 102 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 4: Like there's specifically the f s A around the Kabani 103 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 4: area contributing elements. There's a Syriac Military Council, so that's 104 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 4: a distinct ethnic group. There is the jayash or al 105 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 4: if I said. 106 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: That, right, uh no, but I can say, if you are. 107 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 4: Please do magical thank yoush. 108 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: Means army or like army Jish. It's it's annoying because 109 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 3: the English is spelled jish, but it's just a Jewish. 110 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 111 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, the Revolutionary Army, army of revolutionaries, I guess more accurately, 112 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 4: who are another mixed ethnicity group. They like Robertsent, include Turkmen, Armenians, 113 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,239 Speaker 4: all kinds of different ethnic groups. So at this point 114 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 4: there the entity that is the SDF is a majority 115 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 4: Arab entity. And it's not like an ethnic Kurdish thing, 116 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 4: and and and the Autonomous Administration is not like a 117 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 4: kurdishth no state, which I think is something that people 118 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 4: can sometimes either confuse or conflate. But like that that's 119 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 4: not the case, right that That's not what this sort 120 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 4: of democratic confederalism is about, nor is it what's represented 121 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 4: in terms of the composition of the people that people 122 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 4: doing the fighting, right, So sometimes these groups will be 123 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 4: referred to on massos quote unquote the kurd. 124 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: You should by how kind of messy. My explanation was, 125 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: it is hard to walk people through this. Folks eyes 126 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: tend to glaze over, for one thing, when you mention 127 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: a certain number of acronyms. But this leads to a 128 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: situation whereby the US news is just like the Kurds 129 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: defeated Isis in northeast Syria. It was like, no, there was, 130 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: there were a whole lot of other people who did 131 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: a lot of dying. 132 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: When involved, and some Kurds who were not involved. 133 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 3: So also just so much infighting. I think that it 134 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: gets I don't know, it's it's a lot. 135 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: It is. 136 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: It is a lot like saying the Americans defeated the 137 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: Nazis and it's like, well, there are. 138 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: Some other people who involved in the world. 139 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well yeah, I've seen some films from it. 140 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 4: And let me tell you, yes, I think I think 141 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 4: Ruben's right, like it collapses two things, right, like the 142 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 4: heterogeneity of Kurdish people, right, different Kurdish areas, of different 143 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 4: Kurdish movements, and the heterogeneity of the SDF, so yeah, 144 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 4: mainstream use sometimes yeah, because it's shocking. 145 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: It is also worth noting like Kurds are not certainly 146 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: not a like a monolithic group. For examine North the 147 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: Assyria is like flat lands lowlands, and there's a big 148 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: difference between the mountain Kurds and the Kurds who live 149 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 2: in these like lowlands, and traditionally even like a lot 150 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: of like bad blood and stuff between different groups, because 151 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: you know, that's just the way human beings are. 152 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 6: Like, yeah, yeah, it's really easy, I think for when 153 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 6: we're consuming news, especially news about the part of the 154 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 6: world that the populace here hasn't been spectacularly well informed 155 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 6: on to break things down into easy groups, right, Like 156 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 6: you'll see a lot as well, like Sunni and shi'ah as, 157 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 6: like the two categories that can exist within like and 158 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 6: then people get. 159 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 4: Very confused when there are categories within that when when 160 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 4: they're where there are Sunni groups fighting each other, and 161 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 4: the same with like Kurds or Turkmen or whatever, like 162 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 4: none of these groups are homogeneous. And sometimes yeah, if 163 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 4: you do, I get it. If you're doing a five 164 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 4: minute piece for TV, that's what you do. But here 165 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 4: we are not doing a five minute piece for TV. 166 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 4: So this is this has not been like Kurdish history. 167 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 4: One O one, please read some more books about that. 168 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 4: I'll put some in the sources. But what I want 169 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,359 Speaker 4: to talk about today is some of these bairaktar attacks 170 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 4: on specifically YPG. Right, so the YPJ would be the 171 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,719 Speaker 4: Women's Defense Forces, So that's a women's militia within the 172 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 4: SDF that, as Roberts said, it's based heavily. I guess 173 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 4: on the outlook of Abdulah Oscelin, who's sometimes called Appo. 174 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 4: Might use that for brevity here. So in one attack 175 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 4: in April twenty twenty two, three YPGA fighters were killed. 176 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 4: De la Jaleb, who had participated in the resistance of 177 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 4: the Sheik Masoud district of Aleppo. In twenty twelve, she 178 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 4: become a leading YPGA commander and participate in the fight 179 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 4: against ISIS, playing a leading role in the liberation of 180 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 4: the city of Mimbic Rahani Kabani. It's worth noting, I guess, sorry, 181 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 4: I stop every fifteen seconds to explain context that you'll 182 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 4: hear sometimes place names in people's names. That's because they're 183 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 4: like Norm de Geer, rather than that this is not 184 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 4: their legal name necessarily, but it's it's standard practice for 185 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 4: these people to take like a movement name or a 186 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 4: nom de gueer, much like Robert and I explained in 187 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 4: the episodes on Miamma, A lot of people do this 188 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 4: a lot of places. 189 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: Is that fair, Robert, Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot 190 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: of Like oftentimes people just like take a name based 191 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 2: on their city that they came from, like Kobani or whatever. 192 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's pretty much the norm that most people, 193 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: most fighters will introduce themselves by some sort of nobdaguere. 194 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, and even some of the I know people who 195 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 4: are like British or American who have been over there, 196 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 4: who are over there, and they also have. 197 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: These Yeah, and there's a lot in that. One thing 198 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 2: you have to keep in mind is that, like a 199 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: lot of these people who are revolutionaries who consider themselves 200 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: revolutionaries have family in regime controlled parts of town or 201 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 2: parts of Syria or in you know, in Idlip, which 202 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: is largely controlled by these like more Turkish backed Islamist groups. 203 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: And so part of why you do this is like 204 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 2: I don't want my family like getting caught up in 205 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 2: this shit, like if they live somewhere else, like I 206 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 2: don't want to like bring that down on them. It's 207 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: just safer. 208 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, just like when we did our episodes, right, we 209 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 4: had Miaok and Andy and Sarah. Another woman, as I said, 210 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 4: Rohani Kabane joined the YPGA in twenty fourteen. She fought 211 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 4: against ISIS. She was wounded. She participated after recovering and 212 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 4: that in the liberation of Rakka and she was the 213 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 4: co chair of the defense committee in Kabani. And then 214 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 4: there was the youngest, the youngest woman she just joined. 215 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 4: I guess or her joined at a young age and 216 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 4: she was called Kabani and she uh like she joined 217 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 4: after the fight against ISIS. She she was very young. 218 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 4: There are pictures I'll include the report. It's very sad 219 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 4: to see someone, Yeah, I think so. 220 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, they look they look like there's a couple of 221 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 3: them that look like babies. Like it's it's really devastating 222 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 3: because it's I don't know, their lives are taken from 223 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 3: them and they joined to it's it's it's it's empowering, 224 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: and then it's devastating because it's just like they fought 225 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 3: so hard and then they they were assassinated, literally they 226 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 3: were murdered. 227 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's when especially when you consider that so many 228 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 4: of these, like the women who fought against ISIS right 229 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 4: like and I think we could probably understand why women 230 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 4: would would want to do that, like wanted to create 231 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 4: a place where young girls could grow up and be 232 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 4: who they wanted to be and then do what they 233 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 4: wanted to do and. 234 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: Not have to. 235 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 4: Obviously like kaw Tao. So that's extremely violent misogynist organization 236 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 4: like ISIS, but also not necessarily have to fight either, 237 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 4: and you know, could be self realized and whatever way 238 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 4: they wanted to. And so to see these people having 239 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 4: achieved their goal largely of I guess I still exists, right, 240 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 4: and I still continues to kill people. It killed ten 241 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 4: people yesterday, but that's the eighth of August, because you 242 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: won't hear this today. But to see these people who 243 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 4: have like successfully at least liberated the territory, and then 244 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 4: the young women are still dying but not finding ISIS, 245 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 4: but find Turkey, I can go on and give like 246 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 4: there are dozens of examples of this report. Another one 247 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 4: I'll just give in July twenty twenty two, there's a 248 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 4: YPJ commander called j Kabur and a fighter called barin Botan, 249 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 4: so one of them had been and then another one 250 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 4: called another YPG commander called Jian Tall Hidden Tall Hidden. 251 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 4: So these two women have been involved in the fight 252 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 4: against isis like from the beginning, having like liberated cities, 253 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 4: liberated territory. And then they were with this young woman 254 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 4: who was nineteen years old and had relatively recently joined 255 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 4: the YPG right and was killed by a drone strike. 256 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 4: It's like it's particularly galling, I think for me at 257 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 4: least two so that the YPG Information Office is someone 258 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 4: that I communicate with, like for work stuff, and it's 259 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 4: particularly galling to like wake up Brent and see that 260 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 4: on your phone, like to get a message and look 261 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 4: at a report, see a picture of a car like 262 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 4: blown to pieces. At the same time as like the 263 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 4: Birectori is a drone that Turkey has sold to Ukraine 264 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 4: in large numbers, right, which has been hugely effective in 265 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 4: destroying Russian armor. And like it's currently. 266 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: At least was it's it's it seems to not really work. 267 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: I mean a lot of stuff has changed obviously, like 268 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: new technology is extremely effective early on before there's countermeasure anyway, whatever, 269 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: we don't need to get nerdy about this. 270 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's certainly. Like in the first months of 271 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 4: their war, the war in Ukraine became like a meme. 272 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 4: You you can buy a stuffed birector on et ceo eBay, 273 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 4: like like a soft toy, like a Teddy Bear. There 274 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 4: are songs about it. 275 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: It's not it's not great. 276 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah it was, and it was one of those things 277 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 2: where like, obviously I was happy to see effective tools 278 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: being used by the Ukrainians to like defend their home, yes, 279 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 2: of course, but I'm not ever going to get up 280 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: and stand the Turkish defense industry or yeah, defense like 281 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: industry for the for the record, I feel the same 282 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: way about like the people standing standing you know, different 283 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: US defense contractors making stuff like you know, long range 284 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: missile systems. Like no, I'm not, I'm not really a 285 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: fan of that. 286 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: Like I get it. 287 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: Sometimes, you know, when you're being invaded, you use the 288 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 2: tools available, But that doesn't mean we need to celebrate that. 289 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. I think the tools are largely kind of agnostic, 290 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 4: and anyone who's sort of is making things to kill 291 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 4: people purely for profit, it's not necessarily a good a 292 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 4: good thing to do with your life, I guess and like, 293 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 4: it's just troubling to me to see people like cheering 294 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: this on without like it highlights one like the way 295 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 4: that people engage with conflict, especially online, especially in the US, 296 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 4: which yeah, it's not a computer game, it's someone's nineteen 297 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 4: year old fucking daughter. It's someone's mum or sister or 298 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 4: brother or uncle or dad or non binary relative. 299 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: The fact that you can buy like a stuffed fucking weapon, 300 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 3: like little drone thing on ebays. It's it's just so disturbing. 301 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 3: I really just don't like humans when I think about that. 302 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand why it happens this way, and I 303 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 2: understand why if your country is being invaded and you 304 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: can get more support from the international community by leaning 305 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: into this shit, you lean into this shit. But I 306 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 2: don't like the idea of like some I don't know 307 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: fucking accountant in Iowa watching hundreds of videos of like 308 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: Russian soldiers being killed and then like getting a fucking 309 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: Lockheed Martin tattoo, like the like the like like turning 310 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 2: turning your support for people you know in a deadly 311 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: military conflict into like fandom, treating it the way you 312 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 2: treat like a Marvel movie or whatever. 313 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: I find not great. 314 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just not like I understand why. Like I 315 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 4: wouldn't blame anyone in Ukraine for being super excited about 316 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 4: having bairagtos because it stops people burning their homes and 317 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 4: killing their children. Yeah, I would want that too. 318 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: No, just like if you're if you're like I have 319 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 2: a friend who I went like, we were in fucking 320 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 2: of Divka together, like sheltering with people from Russian shells 321 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: and stuff, who then went on to join the Ukrainian 322 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: military and has been fighting since the expanded invasion. If 323 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: he wants to share videos or watch videos of like, 324 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 2: you know, dead Russian soldiers from telegram, like that's war. 325 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: It's unpleasant, but I get it. Like again, if you're 326 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: some dude in fucking Wisconsin doing the same thing, I 327 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: find that pretty unsettling, Like yeah, because you don't need to, Yeah. 328 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: No, you don't need to. 329 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 4: You don't need to dehumanize those people so you can 330 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 4: kill them because you're not killing them. Yeah, but you 331 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 4: seem to have engaged in that same dehumanization which is 332 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 4: necessary for people fighting, because I don't know, maybe you 333 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 4: think you're helping. 334 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: It's hard to shoot people otherwise, Like Yeah, there's a 335 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: reason that's war hard to fucking banonet. 336 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 4: People, right, there's a reason that bannet training is one 337 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 4: of these things that's particularly just kind of it has 338 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 4: to be Ziland. You have to be horrible, you know, 339 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 4: like it's there's no nice way to stab someone. But 340 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 4: the yeah, it doesn't mean that you need to tweet 341 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 4: about it, especially folks who maybe aren't peracptice on the 342 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 4: ground familiar. That's what this looks like. So I wanted 343 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 4: to maybe get into a little bit. And there are, 344 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 4: as I said, dozens of these corone attacks. They're really 345 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 4: ramped up in early twenty twenty three, along with like 346 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 4: a kind of a larger air offensive. Right, they continue 347 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 4: to happen like almost weekly. If people want to, I 348 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 4: guess keep tabs. YPG Info is the YPJ's kind of 349 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 4: public facing press website. Roger Information Center is a good 350 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 4: English language resource. Both of those you can. 351 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: Find on. 352 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 7: X or if you you can also search of them website. 353 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 7: Can we just say X, No, we should say wink 354 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 7: and the ludge. 355 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, X is not in fact gonna give it to. 356 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: Us only like I will understand that way that I 357 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 3: like that. 358 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a narrow overlap there, buddy, Yeah, you shut 359 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 4: the get there. Yeah, you know what is going to 360 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 4: give it? And by it I mean the money that 361 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 4: pays our wages to us. What is it, James, It's 362 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 4: it's combination of products and services. 363 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: Wow, man, I love a good product. 364 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 4: Me too. 365 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: I don't love services. Actually, I'm very anti service. But 366 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 2: you know, we'll see, yeah. 367 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 6: We'll see it. 368 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 4: Might it might change your opinion, it might be something 369 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 4: amazing unlikely, probably gold. But yeah, let's hear from the advertisers. 370 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 4: All right, we're back. We hope you enjoyed those adverts 371 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 4: as much as we do. So I want to talk 372 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 4: about in the second half of the episode why Turkey 373 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 4: is using these drones to bomb people who, like we said, 374 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 4: have fought and largely defeated the territorial Caliphate of ISIS. 375 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 4: I did want to bring up one more drone instant actually, 376 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 4: which is particularly bad. So one of the things that 377 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 4: you often to see the SDF and specifically the YPG 378 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 4: and the YPG kind of accused of is having child soldiers, 379 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 4: are having recruiting people who are under the aged to fight, 380 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 4: part of a program they've implemented to stop this with 381 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 4: consultation with the United Nations is building education centers, right. 382 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 4: I'm not going to comment morally on who should be 383 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 4: fighting at what age, because I think it's one judgment 384 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 4: for us to make when we. 385 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: Met isis in the fucking streets? 386 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I look, I think there's a degree to which 387 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: people are being unreasonable about this. I met a number 388 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: of seventeen year olds. It's generally when people talk about 389 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 2: child soldiers, they are talking about seventeen year olds. I 390 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 2: have friends who's in the US Army when they were 391 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 2: seventeen years old. Like I have friends who were learning 392 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: how to drive a tank for the US military at 393 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: age seventeen. And quite frankly, if you look at where 394 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: like wars in history, sixteen to twenty years old, that's 395 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: most of the people who have fought most of the 396 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 2: wars in most of history. 397 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: That's like the way that it is. 398 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: It's not pleasant, but like when we are talking like 399 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 2: I certainly I would be very supportive of laws put 400 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 2: in place in our country to raise the age at 401 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: which people can join the military so that they are 402 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: not young and not getting taken advantage of to as 403 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 2: much of a degree. But we are not fighting in 404 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 2: any conflicts for our survival. 405 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think people that point the finger and like 406 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: talk about child soldiers whatever the shit and they're in 407 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 3: they are referencing like, yeah, basic teens. They have the 408 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 3: privilege of doing that. They don't have to even think 409 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 3: about protecting themselves or their family or whatever. I think 410 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 3: when you are and in like a situation of violence, 411 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 3: like Palastine's a great example of that. You see like 412 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: boys like trying to defend their their country, it's like 413 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 3: the same situation where there's you don't have the privilege 414 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 3: of waiting until you're fucking twenty one or whatever. It's 415 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 3: just like you have to you have to like protect yourself. 416 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the it's not a situation you are 417 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 2: not being It's not like again, it's not like it 418 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 2: is often when we talk about child soldiers, like in 419 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: the Liberian Civil War, right where you've got kids being 420 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: pulled in, you know, for the advantage of some warlord. 421 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 2: Nor is it like in the United States where you 422 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: have seventeen and eight year old eighteen year olds being 423 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: recruited in a predatory way off and by military recruiters 424 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 2: and sent overseas in conflicts that are not necessary. We 425 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 2: are talking about like isis is five blocks away, and 426 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 2: like god knows what they'll do to my mom and 427 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: my sister if they take over, Like I'm going to 428 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: pick up a fucking gun. You know what else? What 429 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 2: else are you gonna do? That's that's the world. Like 430 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: they're living in a different set of realities than we are. 431 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and anyone that places judgment on that is just 432 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: ignorant and non understanding of the reality of the world. 433 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 3: They're just like in their little bubble. 434 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. So on August the eighteenth, twenty twenty two, Turkish 435 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 4: drone targeted one of these un affiliated education centers. 436 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 5: Right. 437 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 4: It was two kilometers from the US coalition base and 438 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 4: targeted group of teenage girls playing volleyball. It's very hard 439 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 4: to see these education centers as like anywhere in military 440 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 4: target Right. They're literally designed to divert young people from 441 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 4: becoming fighters, and to you know, they're set up with 442 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 4: the consultation United Nations, with the you know, like with 443 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 4: as much of oversight as one can expect in an area 444 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 4: which is in the middle of a civil war, and 445 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 4: to be drone striking schools, it is pretty callous. It's 446 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 4: also worth noting that, like, it's a contantly gets thrown 447 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 4: around a lot in discussion about the Middle East. Right, 448 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 4: it's the only democracy in the Middle East, and it's 449 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 4: let me tell you, it's not normally referring to this 450 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 4: part of the world. It's referring to Israel and a 451 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 4: I don't think that's true Israel project, Yeah it does 452 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 4: it what fucking definitely? Well, democracy is an extremely nebulous concept, right, yeah, 453 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 4: So like this is this anaria where people's votes have 454 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 4: a substantive impact on how their lives lives, certainly more 455 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 4: so than people who are Arabs in Israel. 456 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Kurds in southern Turkey, Syrians in Syria, like. 457 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yepyria, Yeah yeah, yes exactly, people in parts of 458 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 4: Iran like. 459 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 2: Iraq, I think people in northern or in the in 460 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: the Baghdad government controlled junks of Iraq for that matter. 461 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, like all over. Right, Like, so, this isn't 462 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 4: just an attack on like individual women, It's an attack 463 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 4: on a state which is genuinely at least attempting to 464 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 4: establish a new form of democracy, right, like a more participatory, 465 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 4: more horizontally organized democracy. It's an attack on a state 466 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 4: in the Middle East, which is like anti patriarchal, which 467 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 4: is something that we don't have here in the United States. Right, 468 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 4: Like it's it's like we have still failed to have 469 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 4: a woman being president, Like it's it's an attack on 470 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 4: these things which most decent human beings should be able 471 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 4: to get behind. These attacks also don't just affect the 472 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 4: people who are killed, right, They continue to displace families, 473 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 4: They contribute to fuel shortages, they create power cuts, they 474 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 4: suspend schools, they stop aid ach organizations working in the 475 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 4: area because it's too high risk or they perceive it 476 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 4: to be too high risk, and they stop the SDF 477 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 4: continuing their operations against ISIS, right Like ISIS, as I said, 478 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 4: continue to exist. They have sleeper cells. There was an 479 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 4: attempted prison break last year. Two of the women from 480 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 4: the YPG who had fought to stop those ISIS prisoners 481 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 4: breaking out of their prison were later killed in the 482 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 4: drone strike. It's very hard to see this as not 483 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 4: helping that like that ISIS insurgency that they're fighting and 484 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 4: hindering their operations. And I'm not just saying this based 485 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 4: on sources that are the Roger Information Center are people 486 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 4: in their anes, but this is the policy of the 487 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 4: United States. Right before we started this, I looked up 488 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 4: some of the Inspector General's reports from Operation Inherent Resolve, 489 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 4: which is the United States operation to lead a coalition 490 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 4: which includes SDF against ISIS, and they were talking about 491 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 4: how the sdf's operations are hindered because they keep getting 492 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 4: shot by drunts, right, and that there's not much that 493 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 4: they can do about it, right, Unlike like Ukraine were 494 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 4: not sending a ton of surface to air missiles or 495 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 4: like things that you could use to defend yourself against drones, right, 496 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 4: not that it's very easy to defend yourself against the drone. 497 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 4: So why is Turkey doing this? I think firstly because, 498 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 4: as Robert said, it sees SDF and the PKK is 499 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 4: the same thing, right. And so the PKK mostly operates 500 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 4: like Roberts in the mountains of southeastern Turkey, and it's 501 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 4: been fighting this asymmetrical war against the Turkish state since 502 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty four. So Urdigans Urigan is the president of Turkey, right, 503 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 4: he entered off his in two thousand and three, and 504 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 4: he's sort of pivoted on Turkish issues and Kurdish issues. Sorry, 505 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 4: he continues to be Turkish, but he was initially in 506 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 4: favor of like a negotiated peace with the PKK. In 507 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 4: his early years included like proposals for linguistic autonomy, the 508 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 4: right to a Kurdish press, and even like the return 509 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 4: of Kurdish place names, which is a big deal still. Yeah, right, Yeah, 510 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 4: you'll see like Commichlo or al Chemishli, like one being 511 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 4: Arab the latter being Arabic, that the form of being Kurdish. 512 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean it's just it's a huge deal 513 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 3: because you're not just killing like people, you're killing a 514 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: culture that's like in like it's not it's still like 515 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 3: a different word to say extinct, like it's in danger 516 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 3: of like not being there if it's off for the 517 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 3: people protecting it, right, And I think it's like a 518 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 3: classic tactic to stop people from using their language or 519 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 3: customs or whatever, to just like try to erase them 520 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 3: and like make them Turk or whatever they want them 521 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 3: to be. And so the proposal of that I think 522 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 3: is significant. But then obviously the follow through is a 523 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 3: different story. 524 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, the follow through is not there, right, So after 525 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 4: twenty fifteen, he's really pivoted and he's pursued like a 526 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 4: really violent anti Kurdish policy. And it's worth noting, as 527 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 4: you said, that for much of a twentieth century Turky 528 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 4: state denied the existence of Kurdish people together. They called 529 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 4: them mountain Turks in even in March twenty twenty one, 530 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 4: the Turkish Military of Education released a book in the 531 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 4: Kurdish minority. It's a province called Diabakir Diabaquir. I guess 532 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 4: it's Turkish, which it doesn't mention Kurds. It's a Kurlish 533 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 4: majority province. It doesn't mention the Kurdish language. It claims 534 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 4: that it's a Turkish dialect that's spoken there. They changed 535 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 4: the name in August twenty twenty one of seventeenth century 536 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 4: mosque from the words translating from the Turkish to the 537 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 4: Kurds Mosque, and they call it the Turks Mosque. In 538 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, Turkey dropped its objection so subjection is 539 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 4: an effective vito right to Finland and Sweden joining NATO 540 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 4: when the latter pled to devote more attention to the 541 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 4: PKK and effectively end its decades old tradition as giving 542 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 4: protection an asylum to Kurdish refugees. So if people aren't familiar. 543 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 4: Sweden has been a country that's offered asylum to a 544 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 4: a lot of different groups of people, Like I have 545 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 4: a lot of friends from various stories I've done all 546 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 4: over the world who have ended up living in Sweden, 547 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 4: and Kurdish people are among those people, right who have 548 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 4: found a home and a safe place in Sweden. So 549 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 4: encouraging Sweden to not do that gives people one less 550 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 4: safe place to go, right, Yeah, and this was kind 551 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,239 Speaker 4: of Turkey's like cost of entry for those people into NATO. Now, 552 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 4: obviously there's a reason that Sweden and Finland want to 553 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 4: join NATO, right, and that's the Russia is like right 554 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 4: there and has been doing some invasion recently, and so 555 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 4: they want that as kind of mutual aid, that mutual defense, 556 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 4: and so they're being forced to give up this very 557 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 4: reasonable policy of offering people are silent. Hi, everyone, it's 558 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 4: me James, and I am back after what I hope 559 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 4: was a fruitful and enjoyable advertising break for you. It 560 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 4: is just me, and the reason for that is that 561 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 4: someone outside is currently severing my telephone cable. Judging by 562 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 4: what I can hear, and the fact that I no 563 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 4: longer have the Internet so the second part of this 564 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 4: episode will be me reading my script by myself without 565 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 4: the interesting and often entertaining input of my colleagues. So 566 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 4: sorry about that, but you will just have to make do. 567 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 4: Turkey's been involved in a Syrian civil war since the beginning. Initially, 568 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 4: it armed and equipped the Anti Assad FSA, but in 569 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 4: August twenty sixteen it began a direct occupation of parts 570 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 4: of northern Syria under Operation Euphrates Shield. In twenty seventeen, 571 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 4: it facilitated the establishment of the Syrian National Army and 572 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 4: the Syrian Entering Government. 573 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: Which it finances. 574 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 4: Turkey has accused of Syrian Democratic forces, to which the 575 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 4: YPG and YPGA belong, of quote seizing and ethnically cleansing 576 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 4: territories which don't belong to Kurds. It isn't really any 577 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 4: credible evidence for this, and the UN has refuted these claims. 578 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 4: Some people have moved right, like as happens in many conflicts, 579 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 4: but the SMI saw was like twenty five families. Earligan 580 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 4: has openly expressed a sentiment that Kurdish people don't belong 581 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 4: in North and East Syria, saying these areas are not 582 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 4: suitable for the lifestyle of Kurds because these areas have 583 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 4: virtually desert deportations of Syrians who have been who have 584 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 4: sought refuge in Turkey. Right, So, people from Syria who 585 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 4: have fled the civil war. At three and just over 586 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 4: three and a half million people are living in Turkey. Right. 587 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 4: Turkey has declared its intention to move one million of 588 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 4: these people back to Syria, and it has already begun 589 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 4: moving these people back to northwest Syria in the area 590 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 4: as it occupies. 591 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 7: Right. 592 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 4: The US State Department, in a press conference on the 593 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 4: fourth of August deny that this constituted a demographic change. 594 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 4: But I think that that's very heavily disputed by people 595 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 4: on the ground. Certainly the YPGA and the YPG would 596 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 4: do dispute that right, that the Kurdish people who have 597 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 4: been driven out of some of the areas that Turkey 598 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 4: occupies are being replaced by these people that are being 599 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 4: moved back in by Turkey. Turkey was, of course the 600 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,320 Speaker 4: entry point for much of the weaponry and many of 601 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 4: the people who joined ISIS in Syria. Foreign Policy the 602 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 4: Publication has estimated that more than thirty thousand people across 603 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 4: Turkey along the so called Jihadi Highway. Later Turkey clamped 604 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 4: down on this a bit, but certainly in my coverage 605 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 4: of the smuggling of weapons and equipment to ISIS, they 606 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 4: were going through Turkey. Turkey was also directly engaged with 607 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 4: the defeat of ISIS right Turk Turkey's troops for ISIS 608 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 4: in parts of northern Syria. Meanwhile, Turkey is also enforced 609 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 4: an economic blockade of the Autonomous Area of North East Syria. 610 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 4: And it's even restricted water flowing into the region. Right, 611 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 4: So at some point weapons and humans have flowed through 612 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 4: Turkey to ISIS, and at this point water is not 613 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 4: flowing in sufficient quantities through Turkey to the Autonomous Area 614 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 4: of North and East Syria. And twenty eighteen, Turkey started 615 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 4: what's called Operation Olive Branch. It's a military operation in 616 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 4: which Turkish and Syrian National Army forces to control a 617 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 4: city of Afrin. The assault included the alleged use of 618 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 4: chemical gas, shelling of civilian areas, and shooting of fleeing refugees. 619 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 4: Kurdish shrines, flags, cultural and historical sites were targeted destroyed 620 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 4: by Turkish military forces. A hospital was bombed. Reporters Without 621 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 4: Borders noted that reporting on the conflict had been handstrung 622 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 4: by the Turkish government and more than thirty thousand Kurdish 623 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 4: people have been displaced and their homes have been taken 624 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 4: by those relocated refugees who we spoke about. Olive farms 625 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 4: in the area have been seized and then leased to 626 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 4: fund the operation of the pro Turkish Syrian National Army. 627 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 4: The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights has documented these forces 628 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 4: threatening to behead Kurds. And The Independent, that's the newspaper, 629 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 4: has noted that some of the people fighting along I 630 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 4: had the SNA are themselves former cards of ISIS, and 631 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 4: it's reporting The Independent reported that and I quote video 632 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 4: posted it online shows three uniformed jahadi's singing a song 633 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 4: in praise of their past battles, and it says, quote 634 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 4: how we were steadfast in Grossny that's in Chezhnia, Dakistan, 635 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 4: and we took the Tora Bora that's Tora Bora's cave complex, 636 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 4: formerly the headquarters of Osama bin Laden, and now Afrien 637 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 4: is calling to us. There's the song they were singing, 638 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 4: right that, suggesting that they're sort of a fight. There's 639 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 4: casting this in in a long line of these battles 640 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 4: that have been fought by these various I guess Islamist groups, 641 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 4: just to be super clear on Islamist versus Islamic, because 642 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 4: I don't want people to confuse the two things. One 643 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 4: is a political outlook, right. Being an Islamist is a 644 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 4: political outlook in it it focuses on, It uses an 645 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 4: interpretation of Islam, which is certainly not the mainstream one. 646 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 4: It's not my place to say whether or not it's 647 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 4: a correct one, but it's certainly not the one that 648 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 4: most Muslims in the world agree with. And it's the 649 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 4: interpretation of that faith that you'll have seen with groups 650 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 4: like ISIS and al Qaida. Right, But that is not 651 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 4: to say by any means that all Muslim people agree 652 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 4: with this, because they don't. There are Muslim people, many thousand, 653 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,240 Speaker 4: hundred of thousands of them who have been targeted killed 654 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 4: by these people, right, And just wanting to be super 655 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,439 Speaker 4: clear on that distinction. This Hereian Observatory for Human Rights 656 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 4: has also noted members of the Turkish fascist group the 657 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 4: Gray Walls, fighting alongside the sna SO standing in the 658 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 4: United States. It is easy to see this Turkish operation 659 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 4: as a consequence of Trump's choice to abandon the SDF 660 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 4: and the people who defeated isis, and to a large 661 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 4: degree it is, but it also represents a long term 662 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 4: goal of Verdigan to Turkey, which is tried without success 663 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 4: to get support for its plans to build a buffer 664 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 4: zone thirty kilometers is deep on his border with Syria 665 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 4: and to fill that buffer zone with Syrian refugees who 666 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 4: increasingly end up in Turkey. In particular, Turkey has objected 667 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 4: to plans by the United States train and equip a 668 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 4: thirty thousand person strong border force. This went through several 669 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 4: different naming iterations that don't really matter. It's a border force. 670 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:24,879 Speaker 4: Right before the attack, Russian military officials propose handing over 671 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 4: a free to a SAD as a compromise. So we 672 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 4: haven't talked about Russia much. Robert talks about this in 673 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 4: his series. But Russia is in Syria as an ally 674 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 4: of the Aside regime and it has sort of acted 675 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,280 Speaker 4: as a go between between the SDF and the Side regime, 676 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 4: and it has proposed in this instance right that the 677 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 4: SDF withdraw from a Frien which is the area that 678 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 4: Turkey invaded in operation out of Branch of twenty eighteen, 679 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 4: and it said if you guys put out and you 680 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 4: hand us over to ASAD, the Turks won't invade. They 681 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 4: were directly take on a SAD like that. The SDF refused. 682 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 7: Right. 683 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 4: The authorities are in a very tense relationship with Damascus, 684 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 4: which is where Sad's government is based. Right, they've both 685 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 4: received aid from them and been attacked by them after 686 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 4: they were abandoned by the US and Russia. And they 687 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 4: knew that Turkey Russia. Russia was aware that Turkey had 688 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 4: plans to invade, right, and obviously didn't do anything to 689 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 4: stop it. So they these SDF felt that they were 690 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 4: abandoned by the US and Russia, with very very good 691 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 4: reason to feel that way. The A and E s 692 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 4: scrambled to find new ally to protect them, and they 693 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 4: found one in the side government. This wasn't like, I 694 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 4: don't think a choice that they wanted to make, But 695 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 4: I think the rest of the world didn't leave with 696 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 4: many options. So I'm quoting here from Muslumabidi, the sdf's 697 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 4: commander in chief. He wrote an op ed and foreign 698 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 4: policy it'll be linked in our sources at the end 699 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 4: of the month. If we have to choose compromise in 700 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 4: genocide shoes our people, he said. Numerous fighters who for 701 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 4: ISIS and foreign volunteers have died in a free so 702 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 4: in that initial operation, right when the SDF opposed Turkish invasion, 703 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 4: numerous people died. One of them was a Britain named 704 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 4: Anna Campbell. As she went by Helene Kera coox, I 705 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 4: might have fucked that pronunciation of not my attempt to 706 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 4: be disrespectful who I have? She was killed by Turkish 707 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 4: Michelle and Lafren. Her father, Dirk Campbell, has been campaigning 708 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 4: ever since Toda his daughter's remains returned. His case remains 709 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 4: with the courts and has been entirely crowd funded. He 710 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 4: submitted a claim to the European Court of Human Rights 711 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 4: after hearing nothing from the Turkish courts, and when he 712 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 4: did that, the Turkish course picked up the case that 713 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 4: he'd submitted there. You can also find a link to 714 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 4: this in the sources, But it's crowdjustice dot com slash 715 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 4: case slash help Hyphen bring Hyphen Anna Hyphen home. They've 716 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 4: raised all the money they need her at the moment, 717 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 4: but doubtless they will need more in the future. So 718 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 4: where does all this leave the people of North and 719 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 4: East Syria. Right, these are people who have been impacted 720 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 4: by the territorial caliphate of the Islamic State and all 721 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 4: the horrific things that people will be aware happened there. 722 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 4: They're people who have successfully fought for and achieved their freedom, 723 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 4: only to be attacked by another state. And they are 724 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 4: people who have suffered the same earthquake that Turkey suffered. 725 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 4: In February of this year twenty twenty three, four thousand 726 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 4: people died in a freed right, which is the city 727 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 4: which is now occupied by Turkish and SNA troops, and 728 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 4: Turkey pushed a little bit further east in Operation quote 729 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 4: unquote Peace Spring, a year after Olive Branch, and currently 730 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 4: Turkey is cutting water flow to pumping stations it controls 731 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 4: that feed water to the area. It combines with the 732 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 4: impact of the earthquake and the ongoing burden of controlling 733 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 4: one of the largest prisons in Earth, which is the 734 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 4: ol Whole Prison, which holds the majority of the ISIS 735 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 4: fighters and their families who were not either killed or 736 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 4: returned to the states from which they came. And we'll 737 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 4: have more on that Olhole prison next week. There's infighting 738 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 4: between militias in the Turkish areas, which obviously impact Turkish 739 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 4: controlled areas. Obviously that impacts civilians as arbitrary arrests. There's 740 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 4: the increasing Turkification of areas like a freem right, including 741 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 4: instruction in the Turkish language. Like Shurin said earlier, one 742 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 4: of the things that's integral to maintain in national identity 743 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 4: is education. Right in my experience studying Catalan identity, getting 744 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 4: education in Catalan was vital to fermenting and continuing Catalan identity. 745 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 4: Kurdish identity is not national in the same way the 746 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,240 Speaker 4: identity in the A and S I guess is not national. 747 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 4: But this Turcification, right, the flying of Turkish flags above 748 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 4: buildings which are not military buildings, right like above hospitals, 749 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 4: and that kind of thing again is a marginalization of 750 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 4: the people who already live there, who lived there for 751 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 4: a long time. SDF guerrilla units like Wrath of Olives 752 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 4: and a Free Liberation Front are involved in fighting with 753 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 4: a Syrian national army, and that fighting kills civilians right 754 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,319 Speaker 4: throughout a free and there have been things like car bombs. 755 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 4: The a Free Liberation Front goes by HRI from the 756 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 4: Kurdish initials right, and they've carried out some attacks on 757 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,439 Speaker 4: SNA militias in the last few days. You can often 758 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 4: see videos of those online. It's the sort of thing 759 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 4: you'd like to see. There are still land mines that 760 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 4: kill civilians in the area, and there are still ISIS 761 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 4: sleeper cells bombing and killing people. Last week, the Autonomous 762 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 4: Administration of North and East Syria responded to turkeys ongoing aggression, 763 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 4: bashing a statement claiming Turkey's operations are forcing the SDF 764 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 4: to divert personnel away from countering ISIS and threatening the 765 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 4: stability of the area. Obviously, this is all after an 766 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,919 Speaker 4: earthquake which killed four thousand people in a free people 767 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 4: that have access as many hospitals there, for instance lots 768 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,320 Speaker 4: and still have a try able to Turkey to get 769 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 4: cancer treatment, right and so is. This leaves the people 770 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 4: of northern Eastyria in a very precarious situation right in 771 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 4: which there are and they're now left largely without the 772 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 4: solidarity that they experienced when they were fighting ISIS, right, 773 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 4: and it's very difficult, just like in so many cases, 774 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 4: I feel this way about Memar two. To see the 775 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 4: US and Europe expressing solidarity and solidarity in the form 776 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 4: of lethal aid, right solidarity in the form of surface 777 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 4: to webissiles and tanks and rifles and bullet proofests and 778 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 4: medical aid and all the things that you need to 779 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 4: sustain a fight to Ukraine. 780 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: And they should they should do that. 781 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 4: I'm not saying for a moment that they shouldn't. Right. 782 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 4: Ukraine has been invaded by a much bigger and more 783 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 4: powerful military and it has every right to defend itself, 784 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 4: and I'm glad that we're helping, but I wish that 785 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 4: we would help other people too, especially people who we 786 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 4: have sort of made promises to that we've not kept, 787 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 4: or people who we've encouraged to believe, in the case 788 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 4: of Mema right that they have a right to a 789 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 4: better life, and then when they decide to defend that, 790 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 4: we don't stand behind them. So yeah, that's my episode. 791 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 4: I'm sorry for a weird juxtaposition of me doing the 792 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 4: last part scripted, but somebody outside is drilling through my 793 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 4: phone cable. So yeah, thank you for joining me. 794 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 5: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 795 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,760 Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 796 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 5: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 797 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 5: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 798 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 5: you can find sources for It could happen here, Updated 799 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 5: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.