WEBVTT - What to Know About William Flynn (ft. Wayne Morrison) 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:04.479 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:08.880 Today's episode is brought to you by us the Frida Egg. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.160 Go to pro shop dot thefridagg dot com. That is 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.480 where we sell things. We've got lots of stuff on there. 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:22.640 We've got some good merchandise, pullovers, Polos, t shirts. We 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.800 also have our photography up there. That's a great place 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:30.320 to purchase golf photos of courses that you might want to, 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.159 you know, remember, for your office, for your house, for 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.440 your man cave, for your living room, wherever it may be. 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.960 Go to proshop dot Thefrida Egg dot com and you 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:47.040 can support our little podcast website newsletter there. Today's episode 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:52.400 is with Wayne Morrison. Wayne Morrison is the uh I 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:57.320 guess the country's most prominent William Flynn expert. So who's 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.520 William Flynn. He's a golf architect. He designed a little 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.040 course called Shinnakok Hills you may have heard of, as 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.759 well as many others in the Golden Age. So we 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:10.800 dove in and talked all things William Flynn. We talked 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.040 about Wayne's book, The Nature Faker. If you are a 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.480 member of a Flynn course or a William Flynn fanatic, 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:21.840 you should check this book out. It's got basically a 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.880 treasure trove of information and he talks about where to 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.600 purchase it. You can send him an email. And it's 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.040 a digital book, which is great because you have it 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.240 everywhere you go. So anyways, Wayne and I talk in 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.959 great length about William Flynn, the man, the golf architect, 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.120 the player, and I hope you guys enjoy this. I 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:46.040 think we'll probably do one of these about most golf 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.960 architects if you like it, so let us know and 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:51.760 thank you again for listening to the Friday Podcast. Here 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:53.520 is Wayne Morrison. 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.840 I miss the green for example, I'm already upset. When 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:58.960 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.360 And when I find my egg Friday Egg, the dreaded 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.880 Frida Egg Friday, Frida Egg, Brian Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg. 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:35.040 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the. 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.800 How did this whole thing start? How did you become 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:34.400 enamored with William Flynn? 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:37.519 Well, it's hard not to be enamored with William Flynn 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.799 living and playing golf in the Philadelphia area because there's 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.840 so many Flynn courses here. But I was commuting to 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.400 New York every day for work and got tired of 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:53.200 crossword puzzles and cryptograms and writing failed screenplays. So I thought, 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.840 you know this guy, William Flynn has designed most of 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.280 my favorite courses in the Philadelphia area. Nobody really knows 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.080 anything about him. I see all this books and things 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.079 coming out on other golf architects, and I thought, well, 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:07.120 why not William Flynn. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.639 So where'd you start? What do you do to start? 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.639 First thing I did was I reached out to Jim Finnigan, 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.480 good friend of our families, and he's prolific golf writer 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.320 and beautiful golf writer. And they asked him what he 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:25.720 thinks I should do, and he said, research, got gotta 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:30.240 you gotta find uh whatever materials you can. He suggested 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:35.160 I talk to David Gordon, William Gordon's son. They had 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.600 a design team together and William Gordon was a construction 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:44.240 foreman for Flynn. So I reached out to mister Finnigan's advice. 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.720 I reached out to David Gordon and I said, I'm 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.040 trying to write this book on William Flynn, but I 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:50.760 don't think it's gonna be more than a pamphlet because 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:54.720 I can't find anything, and he said to me, what's 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.120 your address. I gave my address. He goes, I'm going 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.480 to send you something way, do you see. So about 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.640 two weeks later I in, you know, in front of 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:05.320 my house is this huge box. It's probably four feet 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:10.160 by three feet and inside were probably about three thousand 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.280 drawings that Flynn did on golf courses. 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.080 So so you know, you had decided to write this 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.960 a book or a pamphlet on William Flynn. How long 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:26.599 were you waiting or looking for stuff on William Flynn 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.719 before you talked to Gordon? 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.760 Probably four or five months, and I wasn't getting anywhere. 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.479 This was probably ninety eight, so a lot of stuff 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:44.159 wasn't digitized then. And you know, there's some great historical 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.800 societies in the Philadelphia area and great libraries, so I 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:53.320 started going to those. I found some the papers of 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.080 some important people at Marion and there was some really 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:00.000 interesting things there. I found the Dollin collection, which is 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.680 a wonderful collection of aerial photographs that this guy in 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:08.359 the twenties and thirties would fly around doing industrial work 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.000 and work for the federal government. I guess it was 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.600 land management and things like that, but he also photographed 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.800 golf courses. So in that was a collection of a 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.520 number of courses in the Philadelphia area where he was based, 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:21.599 but up and down the East Coast as well. So 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:26.040 it just so happens there were probably twenty or so 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.000 clubs that Flynn designed that I had old aerials of. 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.720 So then this box comes full of. 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:40.720 Stuff, you know, undreamed of riches as far as you know, 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.240 investigating and trying to do a book on William Flynn, 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.480 probably the largest collection of architectural plans by any architect 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.159 pre World War Two. I mean, I don't think anything 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.880 comes close. Even the toughs archives down in Pinehurst pairs 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:59.880 and pales in comparison to what Flynn did. 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.520 Take us to the like you open the box, like 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:03.560 what what were you? 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.120 I could? What did you do well after my jaw closed? 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:13.440 Which it was incredible, I mean it was like it 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.240 was the key to the whole project. Really. Without that, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:18.960 I wouldn't have been able to write a twenty five 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:20.440 hundred and seventeen. 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.679 Page book Still Going getting Bigger, Still getting Bigger. 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.040 Yeah, I just found out last month that Flynn did 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.560 a redesign of the Tuxedo Club's original course. So I 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:33.480 had to add that chapter, but there were you know, 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.000 I know there was. Dan Wexler did a book on 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.480 lost courses, and one of the courses he mentioned was, 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:41.560 wouldn't it be great if I could find the original 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:45.200 plans for Boca Ratan South. Well there was the routing 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.200 map for Boca Raton South and all the individual whole drawings. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.240 It's everything he wished he had when he was writing 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.719 the book on the on the Boca Raton courses. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.400 Do you remember what was like the first at the 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.719 top of the box, like the first thing that you 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.080 opened and up or did you know immediately what was 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:03.400 in it? 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:04.200 I had no idea. 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.000 He's like I'm saying, when you opened it, do you 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.280 remember what the first thing that you looked at was Catanseit? 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.320 Right there was right at the top were fourteen of 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:18.760 eighteen hole drawings of Catanseit. And there was an interesting, uh, 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.240 you know, revelation because most of the people at Catance 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.440 had thought that it was a Frederick could course excuse me. 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.640 He was the uh you know, the inspiration behind the project, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.440 and he oversaw the construction of it, but he didn't 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:40.680 design the course. The Flynn plans matched the aerial photographs 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.960 I had, and uh, you know, we found some documentation 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.600 that later on that corroborated that it was a Flynn design. 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.320 So that was a that was an interesting discovery of 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.960 sorts where you know, we could find an attribute, you know, 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:56.520 verify an attribution. 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.320 So the box comes in total, how many how many 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:05.920 golf courses information did it have on it? 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.320 I think in the fifth low fifties. 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.240 Low fifties, and pretty much really detailed, like what was 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.920 the most detailed of the courses. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:19.280 Well of the drawing. The drawings we had access to 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.120 was Denver Country Club, a redesign that Flynn was doing 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.960 where it was one of the few courses where we 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.720 had his detailed construction instructions. So if you look at 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:33.680 Gil Hanson's drawings today, he uses as a template the 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:39.360 Flynn plan the grid map, a grid paper where each 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.760 box was ten yards and on the on the whole 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:47.640 drawing and each green detail was ten feet. So and 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.439 there was a list of construction, very specific construction instructions 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.000 for each each whole the depth of the bunkers, the 0:08:54.040 --> 0:09:01.800 heights of the mounds, all kinds of really interesting detailed instructions. 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:06.160 Because you know, Flynn had a very interesting. I don't 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:07.520 know if you know this, but he had a really 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.319 interesting business model where he grew up being a great 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.200 suit you know, a really good player in high school 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.680 competing against Francis we met, beating him most of the time. 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:23.959 But he became interested in golf architecture really when he 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.640 came down to Philadelphia. But he was a great agronomist, 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:28.800 you know, he was one of the leading turf experts 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:34.920 and experimenters in turf grasses. He developed construction techniques and 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:41.600 seeding techniques and bent grasses that are used even today. 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:44.640 So and he was a great architect so he was 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.320 really a one stop shop. William Flynn Design Company was 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.679 the designer and Toomey and Flynn was the construction and 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.160 turf grass team. 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.000 So they would consult on turf grass and build the 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:03.120 golf course. Their model was like we'll help, we'll build you, 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.320 we'll design it, build it, and then we'll also grow 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:07.480 it in effectively. 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.800 So, I mean, no other architecture firm back then was 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.640 doing all those things and doing them at an elite level, 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.440 so they got a lot of jobs that way. Flynn 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.920 was also Philadelphia was an interesting place to be part 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.440 of the golf revolution in the United States because it 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.880 was a little behind the other cities. We talked about 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:28.640 this a little earlier. 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.280 Let's talk about that. This is something I wanted to 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.800 ask you as a question, was how did William Flynn 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.920 get to Philadelphia and how did he become part of 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.160 this golf renaissance in the city. 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.600 He came to Philadelphia to be on the construction crew 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.240 because he was from Boston. He was from Boston, grew 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:53.560 up in Milton, Massachusetts, caddied at Walliston Golf Course, and 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.920 competed really, I mean golf. He was one of the 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.679 leading high school golfers in the state. But he was 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.000 also the captain of the basketball team, captain of the 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:06.920 football team, and probably ran track as well. He was 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.320 just a gifted athlete and really a brilliant, hard working guy. 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.600 So he came to Philadelphia to work on the construction crew. 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.319 I'm not sure if it's on the East Course or 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:21.199 the West course. Flynn's brother in law, Frederick pick Pickering, 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.000 was the one of the leading golf construction guys in 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.280 the country at the time. He, at the age of 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:32.000 fifty two, married Flynn's eighteen year old sister, which even 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:33.800 I don't know what it was like back then, but 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:35.800 it seems a little scandalous today. 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.400 And seems like a bad guy. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.439 Well, he had he had some issues, for sure. The 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.560 marriage didn't last very long and he had some alcohol 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.320 problems and was fired during the construction of the West 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.600 Course at Marian at Marion and then Flynn took over 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.720 a construction head of construction for the West course. He 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.200 was at the you know, really close, became close with 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.240 Hugh Wilson, who was the member in charge of the 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.120 new course which is now the East Course at Marion. 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:12.200 But they moved from Haverford to Ardmore and they hit 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:13.920 it off. You know, it was more like a father 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:20.000 son relationship. And Hugh Wilson was, you know, obviously a genius. 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.520 He imparted a lot of knowledge on Flynn. Flynn and 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.320 he worked together on a number of projects outside of Marion. 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.520 Even they owned the first public golf course outside of 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.200 the city. They owned together and designed together. That was 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.000 it was originally called Marble Hall, and then Green Valley 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.800 Country Club, a Jewish club in the area, moved from 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:46.439 one location and purchased that from Flynn's estate, and then 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.280 they worked together on Catanseit a little bit, Cobbs Creek certainly, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.720 and Pine Valley after Crump passed away. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.680 So the Philly School, I think this is one of 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.720 the coolest. Obviously everybody knows phil Delphia as a mecca 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:07.040 of golf in America, in America, but that that reputation 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:11.479 is rooted in, you know, the Philadelphia School of Architecture 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.520 and the kind of a group of individuals that included 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:21.760 Flynn Wilson uh Founds, the Founds, his father son from Oakmont, 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.440 and then also Tilling Hassen, George Thomas. 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:29.280 And Crump and Crobi Clauter and you know, George Mehan. 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:33.520 There's you know, some lesser names, but they collaborated. They 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.920 played a lot of golf. The Golf Association of Philadelphia 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.800 is an incredible organization and it was from the very beginning, 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:44.280 was the first regional golf association. But uh the intra 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.400 club play, inter club play, sorry, really sparked a lot 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:56.080 of uh movement towards the better golfers. You know, we 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:01.000 we talked, we brushed upon the Leslie Cup. So Philadelphia 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.200 was a cricket a bastion of cricket. Baseball took a 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.440 long time to take hold in the Philadelphia area, and 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.959 so did golf because it was mostly horses in cricket, 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.880 which kind of gave Philadelphia. I guess Philadelphia an advantage 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.280 in the long run because some of the you know, 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.600 Victorian golf with the steeple chases and the cop bunkers 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.120 and things like that, you were happening elsewhere. And then 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.920 when Philadelphia started getting into it in the mid to 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.440 late eighteen nineties, there was, you know, there was a 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.920 bit of a freedom of expression they didn't have. They 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.880 weren't tied to the old world clubs. They weren't tied 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.000 to what was going on in Chicago or New York 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:45.840 or Boston. And the Leslie Cup was I forget when 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:50.040 that was established, maybe nineteen hundred or you know, sometime 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.520 between nineteen hundred and nineteen ten, and Philadelphia was just 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.440 getting slaughtered by New York and Boston. 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.160 So that Leslie Cup, it was Montreal. 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.560 That was later on they were okay, yeah, so it. 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.760 Was Boston, New York and Philly and it was a 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:07.320 team competition. 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:10.640 Right, it was. It was really the right. Yeah, but 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.280 it's not it's it's lost a little bit of its luster. 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.160 Like the the Linwood Halk amateur event at at the 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.640 Huntington Valley and the Hugh Wilson at mary And they 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:24.960 kind of slipped away because all the college you know, 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:26.800 tournament season and things like that. 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:31.840 But we were getting into the Leslie Cup needs needs to 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:33.400 be resurrected. 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.760 Or well it needs to attract, you know, instead of 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.320 the old guard you know, players from the different cities. 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.880 You know, you could have a little bit of Yeah. So, uh, 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.560 Philadelphia just you know, was getting hammered in all these 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.520 tournaments and they decide what we need are better golf 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.760 courses to develop better golfers. And that was the genesis 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:56.640 for Maryon and Pine Valley. 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:01.200 So, you know, New York at that time time had 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:06.720 National Golf Links. Garden City would have been around then, right. Yeah. 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:11.080 In Boston myopia, right, the country Club would have been 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:12.960 Essex would have been around, but it would have been 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.600 a different golf course then than it is now. In Philadelphia, 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:17.880 what did Philadelphia have. 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.320 Three cans of peas in the grounds pretty much? At 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.560 Philadelphia Country Club? Not much. And you know we were 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.120 late getting a public golf going in Philadelphia. Cobs Creek 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.920 in nineteen sixteen, I think that's when it opened. Was 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.280 the first public course in the Philadelphia, whereas Boston and 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.720 New York had public courses long you. 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:46.320 Know, they had Courtland, yeah in eighteen ninety four whatever. 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.440 In the Bronx, well, we had nothing, so we weren't 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:55.600 developing great golfers. And the movement towards creating golf courses 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:59.840 to promote better play, you know, really sparked the Philadelphia 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:01.160 scare of golf architecture. 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:06.080 So Marion and Pine Valley, to obviously the most historical 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:10.320 places were really born out of collaboration and h being 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:12.840 tired of getting their ass kect in a in a 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:14.120 competition pretty much. 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.600 Yeah, Pine Valley even more so a collaborative effort because 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:23.119 Marion was, you know, mostly Hugh Wilson. He was a 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:29.240 rather sickly man unfortunately, but he knew he was really 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.240 tied into the USGA. He and his brother Alan Wilson, 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:38.960 and they were Cebe McDonald hooked them up with uh, 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:43.760 the guys at the US Department of Agriculture. He's forgetting 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:49.280 their names for a second. And they they put as 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:54.159 much effort into golf architecture as they did playing services. 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.000 Sub soil, you know, subs you know, below ground and 0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:59.919 above ground. And there was a guy in Philadelphia call 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.040 Frederick W. Taylor, and he was a really interesting guy. 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.560 He was also on the executive board at Pine Valley 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.440 and uh he developed which is kind of a an 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.480 angle angled version of the U s GA Spec greens 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.159 and developed. He was really big into time management for 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.879 large enterprises, and Flynn learned from him how to develop 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.520 cost models to to that would be very accurate. So 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.520 he could he could tell a club, you know, what 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.480 it would cost to design and build a golf course 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.119 and he'd be spot on. Whereas and I don't know 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:36.480 this for. 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.160 A fact, but Yeibon took some architects now could. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.840 Benefit from that. I heard. I heard, Uh, there wasn't 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.240 a course that Donald Ross did that came in on 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.800 or under budget everything of her. Yeah, So so Flynn, 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.640 Flynn was attractive in that sense and that he could 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.359 really you know, he took a scientific approach to to 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.240 management of his of his operations and also how he 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:08.480 approached Gough design. He spent a lot of time on site, 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.679 so you know, whereas Donald Ross was doing twenty courses 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.040 a year, Flynn was doing two or three courses a year, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.840 where even Rainer and tilling Hass were doing, you know, 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.879 several two hundred courses or whatever. Flynn's only you know, 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.240 he only did about eighty designs. Not all of those 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.120 were built, certainly not all of them lasted. The land 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:35.240 bubble in Florida caused the no longer existing courses down there. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:39.080 But today I think there's only about fifty courses that 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.320 are you know, had any version of Flynn, whether it's 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.879 an original design, a redesign, or you know, a varying 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.200 scales or agonomic work that he. 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:53.520 Did with with Flynn, I guess you know, you hear 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.040 the other names that we talked about, Crump found and 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:00.760 obviously those two and Wilson are tied direct two a 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.560 couple of the greatest golf courses in the country. But 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.960 then you George Thomas and aw tilling Hass are in there. 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:14.200 And why do you think that Flynn, despite his vast 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:19.040 number of golf courses and sometimes the stature of some 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.720 of them, is a little bit slept on in the 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:24.160 world of golf architecture. 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.359 That's the question I was hoping to answer when I 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.280 first started this, because I thought he wasn't getting the 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.720 credit that he was due. You know, I would play 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.159 inn club matches and gap. I was a remember at 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.600 Rolling Green at the time, which is a fabulous Flynn 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.679 course and not too far from Marion, and you know, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.280 i'd play all these I'd want to play the away matches, 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.600 and I'd go to the away matches and I'd ask 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.919 who the architect was, and most of the members would go, 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.639 I don't know, why do you care? So but I 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.439 found out that most of the courses that I liked 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:57.960 in the area were by this guy, William Flynn, who 0:20:57.960 --> 0:20:59.919 to me was I had no idea who he was, 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:06.280 and so I started exploring that Connie Logerman, Flynn's daughter, 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.439 was still alive for most of the i'd say, the 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.199 first ten years that I was writing the book, so 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:14.719 I was able to get anecdotes and a little bit 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.000 of a profile of who he was. Like she she 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.879 said that he was a wild and mild irishman that 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:22.720 he could, you know, he loved to go up in 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:26.960 airplanes and do death defying stunts with the pilots at 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.360 the time. But he was also he was he did 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.639 go up with Dolan and but he was, you know, 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.359 he was a really great family man. He was, you know, 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.560 beloved by most of the people that met him when 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.199 he worked for the Rockefellers to developing the course in 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:47.080 at Bolchanico Hills he lived. He they let him stay 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:49.520 in the big house with the family. When he was 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.919 working with Albert Lasker. He was treated like a you know, 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:58.760 like not like a like not like a contractor. He was, 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:01.359 you know, they really had a high regard for him. 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.800 He was apparently very well liked. 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.760 He came over. He wasn't from a well off family 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:10.520 when he came to the States. 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.440 Right, No, he well, he was born in the United States. 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.680 And okay, he was born there, but his family was 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.000 his parents were. 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:19.800 No, they were, yeah, they were, and they were laborers. 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.840 The father was Flynn. Grew up caddying at Wallaston and 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.679 but he married a gardener. And you know, she's in 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.639 the she's h The gardener family in Boston is pretty 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.320 well regarded. You know, I'm sure there's many gardeners there. 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.879 I thought you were talking about like an actual garden Chauncey, No, 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:43.280 like a like somebody that. 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.800 The Gardener family one of those Brahmin families out of Boston. 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:50.720 And uh so he he married well, I mean she 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:55.119 wasn't you know, not everybody in those illustrious families were wealthy, 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:58.560 but he married very well and he was accepted in 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:01.800 the Philadelphia society. I mean, if you look at you know, 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.359 the movers and shakers in Philadelphia were some of the 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:10.080 biggest names in industry, and the Pennsylvania Railroad was the 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:12.800 first billion dollar company in the in the country and 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:17.720 most of those executives were Marion Golf Club members or 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:22.840 Marion Cricket Club members at the time. So, you know, 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.320 his relationship with with Hugh Wilson was, you know, sort 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:29.800 of opened up a lot of doors for him. He was, 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:32.320 you know, working on some of the big you know, 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:34.679 in any given city where he was working, it was 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:38.280 generally the elite club of the of the area. If 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.000 you look at Cleveland, it was Pepper Pike Club and 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:46.800 the Country Club and Pepper Pike. Shinnacock on Long Island 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:51.440 it was, you know, the fanciest summer vacation spot for 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:55.359 the New Yorkers. Cherry Hills in Denver, Cherry Hills in Denver, 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:59.480 Indian Creek in Florida. You know, there's it's it's it's 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:03.879 an interesting dynamic. Who his who his clients were. He 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.280 didn't take on a lot of projects. Like we said earlier, 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:09.600 he only did two or three courses you know, a year, 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:12.520 spent a lot of time on site, so he was 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:15.760