1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Correct and this is next question. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Attention all parents out there, Whether you're one, you know 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: a parent, or whether you've been paying any attention at all, 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: you probably know that the pandemic was a breaking point 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: for parents, and mothers in particular. Mothers are the shock 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: absorbers of society, and everyone realized that when things fell apart, 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: moms were just expected to be there to pick up 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: the pieces, and if they ever complained about it, the 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: response was, well, you decided to have kids, so stuck 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: it up. Jessica Gross is a New York Times opinion 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: writer and creator of the New York Times Parenting newsletter. 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: She says, the pandemic exposed to reality. Mothers have been 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: living with for ages. Mothers have been talking about how 14 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,639 Speaker 1: difficult it is, and especially in the United States, where 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: we don't have things like paid sickly of universal health care. 16 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: Mothers have been talking about this, if only amongst themselves, 17 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: for hundreds of years. The problem is that no one 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: has been listening to them. Today, we're exploring moms at 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: a breaking point with two experts who have been living 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: with it and writing about it. Our first Jessica Gross, 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: whose new book screaming on the inside. The unsustainability of 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: American motherhood dismantles two hundred years of unrealistic parenting expectations 23 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: to empower all of you who might be struggling out there. 24 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: You to kind of analyze motherhood from an historic and 25 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: a cultural and a government policy perspective. But I'm fascinated 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: by the cultural implications and how culture has shaped our 27 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: perceptions of motherhood. And I know that's an area of 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: huge interest to you too that you deal with in 29 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: the book, and one I guess one of the primary 30 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: anti hagonists of this story is the quote unquote ideal mother. Yes, 31 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: and and really the motherhood myth. So first, before we 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: talk about today's ideal mother, how this came about and 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: the letters that you read, I'm so interested from a 34 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: historic perspective, how this came to be and has evolved 35 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: in it into its current iteration. So, I mean, this 36 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: is going to be a very truncated version of the history. 37 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: But basically, in early colonial America, mothers and fathers were 38 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: both deeply involved in raising children. I mean everything was 39 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: in the home. There wasn't a lot of activity outside 40 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: the home period for anyone they lived in rural America. 41 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: And again this is a vast oversimplification, so okay, we'll 42 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: bear with you. Yes, as industrialization happened, there became this 43 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: divide where there was a domestic sphere in the public sphere, 44 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: and the public sphere was only for men and and 45 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: the dome stick spear was for women. And so as 46 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: that happened, let's say that's happening in the eighteen hundreds, 47 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: the Victorian era um, the idea of what a mother 48 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: should be and the domestic role um became sort of crystallized, 49 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: and a lot of those ideas still are still with 50 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: us today in terms of mother's main role in life 51 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: and only role was to think of her children and herself, 52 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: her desires. Her mind just had to be completely subsumed 53 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: to whatever um that was best for the child. And 54 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: of course, this woman who was supposed to stay home 55 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: with the children was always white, and was always Christian, 56 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: and it was many of the sort of cultural mores 57 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: and and laws that rose up at that time were 58 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: either implicitly or explicitly anti immigrant, anti black um. And 59 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: so as time sort of progressed, you know, women said, 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: I don't like this role. I want to do more 61 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: than stay at home with my children more and and 62 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: more and more. Women being educated was a big part 63 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: of this, so women getting higher education, women going into college, 64 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: and so as the twentieth century donned, um, you saw 65 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: lots of pushback from all quarters about you know, home 66 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: being the only place for a woman. Um. However, instead 67 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: of those responsibilities becoming less emphasized for women, we just 68 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: piled more responsibilities on top of it. So it's saying like, well, 69 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: you can work, but of course don't let anything drop 70 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: at home ever. And also, you know, social media is 71 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: sort of what is really new about the twenty one century, 72 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: and so women feel a lot of pressure to not 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: only be perfect in all ways and so be the 74 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: ideal work at work and be the ideal mother at home, 75 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: but to also perform this publicly for an audience of 76 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: either friends or the public. And we see other people 77 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: who are influencers performing this sort of perfect motherhood, and 78 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: that sort of makes it even I think a little 79 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: bit more insidious, because we're seeing these images, unrealistic images constantly, 80 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: and even if I think most of us at this 81 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: point know that they're not realistic, and yet they still 82 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: worm into our brains. Um. And so yeah, it's just 83 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: a pile instead of saying, okay, if mothers are doing 84 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: other things besides mothering, you know other people, their spouses, 85 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: their family members, their friends, you know people that they're 86 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: paying money to caregive who should be paid more money 87 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: than they are. You know, it should be a group endeavor, 88 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: but no, it is still this individualistic mothers should be 89 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: able to do it all. Well, let's talk about mothers today. 90 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: You're forty. You had some positive role models, not only 91 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: in your own mother but in terms of culture and 92 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: the shows, and you know, the idea that women could work. 93 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: But but where did that leave you in terms of 94 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: your current parents and teen roles? Because you said in 95 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: the book, you open with the line, I failed at 96 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: ideal motherhood before I even had a child. Yeah. So 97 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: I like to joke that I leaned into a toilet. 98 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: Um so because I had hyper amesis with my older daughter, 99 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: which is extreme morning sickness. So I think the technical 100 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: definition is that you lose lose five percent of your 101 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: body weight. Um. I was extremely sick and I got 102 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: very very depressed and anxious. Um. I don't know if 103 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: it was because I was not holding down any food 104 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: or it was because I went off antidepressants to conceive. 105 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,239 Speaker 1: It was just I was a mess. It was a mess. 106 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: I had taken a brand new job and I it 107 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: was the first bigger management role UM. And I had 108 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,799 Speaker 1: done so because I knew I wanted to have children 109 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: and I didn't UM. I wanted to be sort of 110 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: set up um when I had kids that I was 111 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: already sort of further along in my career. And I 112 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: didn't realize that I was already pregnant when I started 113 00:06:55,640 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: that job, UM, because you know, best laid plans UM. 114 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: And I ended up quitting that job because I realized 115 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: that short term disability would pay me so little that 116 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: it just was not worth it. And I had to 117 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: put my own health first. And I basically stayed in 118 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: bed for four months UM after I quit that job 119 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: because I just I couldn't be far from a bathroom. 120 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: And I know that's so crass, but it is the 121 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,559 Speaker 1: truth of of how it was for me. UM. And 122 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: so you know, I did everything quote unquote right. You know, 123 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: I was married, I had no debt, I was I 124 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: got pregnant twenty nine because I was so nervous about um. 125 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: You know, oh you know your feeliship for atility declines 126 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: as you get into your thirties, you bet you better 127 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: get on it. And it's still the way our system 128 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: is set up. There was no room for me to 129 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: have a difficult pregnancy and continue to work. And so 130 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, I had already been reporting on the inadequacies 131 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: of policy for American families, but really living through it, 132 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: uh taught me that lessons so deeply and so UM. 133 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: I think that was the low point in a lot 134 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: of ways. Um And in some ways, I not to 135 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: be pollyannish about it, but I think it was good 136 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: for me to have that experience, only because it made 137 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: me more confident in my own instincts and intuition and 138 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: to say, these ideals are crazy and they clearly are 139 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: not working for most people, and to be able to 140 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: sort of, um, do what I thought was right for 141 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: my family and my kids, rather than what seemed to 142 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: be the best or you know, the most ideal or 143 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: the most most performative. Because it sounds as if just 144 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 1: as we got to a point where we were understanding 145 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: or getting a better understanding of the pressures and complications 146 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: of motherhood of trying to quote unquote have it all, 147 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: social media came in and really set us back in 148 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. You mentioned about sort of mom 149 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: influencer person all that jazz I was surprised how big 150 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: a role mormon Ism played in that or is playing 151 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: in that. Can you describe to our listeners how Mormon 152 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: moms have kind of taken over the internet and what 153 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: their impact has been. There is a sort of terminology for, uh, 154 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: the way that Mormon moms have sort of cornered the 155 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: market on momfluencing, and it's called the blogger knackle, which 156 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: I did not come up with, but I think is 157 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: a very apt term. UM. And it is um. And 158 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: again it's you know, like every religion and every UH faith, 159 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: there are many people who believe many different things within 160 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: that faith. So we're just talking about sort of a 161 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: certain subset subset UM. And so there's an emphasis on 162 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: record keeping, and there is an emphasis on making things 163 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: UM look a certain way. And so there was and 164 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: there's obviously an emphasis on traditional marriage and the nuclear 165 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: family UM. And so there was sort of already an 166 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: infrastructure in place for Mormon moms too display their lives 167 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: in a way that was very attractive UM to viewers 168 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: and to show what was beautiful and exciting and lovely 169 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: about motherhood. And I love looking at what they produced. 170 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: It is beautiful, it is there. They make it look 171 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: so effortless and lovely, and so I you know, again, 172 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: I think that the Internet is big and there is 173 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: room for every kind of mother But that ended up 174 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: being the vision of motherhood that was very appealing to 175 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: advertisers because advertisers don't want anything that is controversial for 176 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: you know, rock the boat in any way, and it 177 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: is very It is much easier to sell a grinning, 178 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: beautiful young mom with her beautiful all children who are 179 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: all dressed matching in a matching way against the backdrop 180 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: of beautiful mountains. That is an image that is easier 181 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: to sell than an exhausted, you know, spit up covered 182 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: disaster like sinking into a couch, which is how most 183 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: of us feel in the early motherhood days. And so 184 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, it sort of becomes the self perpetuating thing 185 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: where it's like, if that's what the algorithm supports, that's 186 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: who's doing sponsored posts. I also you heard from um 187 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: folks who had become influencers that if they live in 188 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: very conservative communities, it's a way for them to work 189 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: in a way that's acceptable, and to have sort of 190 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: a public voice in a way that so interesting. Yeah, 191 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: that's you know again, I have only support for anyone 192 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: living their motherhood how they want to live it. However, 193 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: it is just not how many of us experience set 194 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: and I think it puts a pressure on UM, on 195 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: folks who don't conform to that very narrow vision UM 196 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: to feel less than There was a moment, I want 197 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: to say, before Instagram got really huge, when blogging was 198 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: still the primary mode of motherhood expression, where there it 199 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: did feel like a more realistic vision that was more 200 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: diverse might be the kind of transcendent form of motherhood 201 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: that we saw on the Internet, and then Instagram, which 202 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: is so image heavy. It is not words heavy, it 203 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: is image heavy. When that became the dominant mode, and 204 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: the way that people could make money writing being mother's 205 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: basically that just went out the window because it was 206 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: so visual, and so if you did not conform to 207 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: a certain visual appearance, if your house was not perfect, 208 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: if your children were not effect you aren't going to 209 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: get that advertising money. So blocking was in a weird 210 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: way more helpful to moms because it did open the 211 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: door to talking about some of these issues. I wrote 212 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: my memoir about a year ago, and I talked about 213 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: the fact that that I had sort of postpartum depression 214 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: or this form of postpartum I was worried that I 215 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: was going to hurt my baby, and it was so 216 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: I was so riddled with shame. I couldn't talk to 217 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: anyone about it. It was really scary. And we I 218 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: wrote in my book about the fact that that these 219 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: mommy blogs kind of open the floodgates where women could 220 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: talk about these things openly in a supportive community. And 221 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: it sounds like Instagram and sort of current social uh 222 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: media is is less a healthy environment for that and 223 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: one where there's more judgment. But I but I do 224 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: see things on Instagram that seemed to encourage that kind 225 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: of conversation, even on my feed for sure. I mean, 226 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: and that the thing with social media, it is enormous. 227 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: It is very hard to make generalizations about it either way. 228 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you can sort of pick up threads and 229 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: and kind of try to look at the big picture, 230 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: but even the sort of perfect vision of motherhood that's 231 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: what makes money. But there is definitely real talk. There 232 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: are communities that are incredibly supportive and helpful. I have heard, 233 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: especially from moms whose kids were in the nick you 234 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: for a long time or who experienced multiple pregnancy loss 235 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: that have are like um, the I think autism community. 236 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of support for each other, 237 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: and they have found that to be lifelines. UM. And 238 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: I think that the other thing that's happening now, and 239 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: I see this in my own life. A lot of 240 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: the most supportive communication is private. So it's in what's 241 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: app groups, it's in discord circles, because the open Internet 242 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: is a trash fire. Like you tweet something and you 243 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: might get some great feedback, and you might get some 244 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: ile feedback. That is, you know, it's just being on 245 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: the open Internet in any way where anyone can comment. 246 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: I think if you're in a vulnerable place, not great. 247 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: So the sort of more private UM kind of communication, 248 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: I think people are are gravitating towards when we come back. Jessica, 249 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: share some solutions for moms and dads who have had enough. 250 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: Your New York Times parenting newsletters started about nine months 251 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: before the pandemic hit. First of all, you were widely 252 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: praised for being a lifeline for so many mothers, But 253 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: how did how did this turbo charge, all these collective 254 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: forces that we've been talking about. So I think in 255 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: their day to day most parents, especially of young children, 256 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: are so busy they can't even think about the larger 257 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: societal picture and how it's hard for everyone because we're 258 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: so siloed from each other. And I think what happened 259 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: during the pandemic is um and one mom said this 260 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: to me and my reporting that mothers are the shock 261 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: absorbers of society. And everyone realized that when things fell apart, 262 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: moms were just expected to be there to pick up 263 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: the pieces, and if they ever complained about it, the 264 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: response was, well, you decided to have kids, so stuck 265 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: it up, um. And so the amount to which it 266 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: was just as I say in the subtitle of my book, Unsustainable, 267 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: that mothers were expected to educate their children, work, cook 268 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: you know, be emotional support for everybody, just completely losing 269 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: their minds and all of those things. Sometimes in the 270 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: same moment. I often describe something that happened in the 271 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: summer of where I was listening to a conference call 272 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: on my headphones while changing the laundry from the washer 273 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: to the dryer and listening to my kids wine in 274 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: the background. Because they were hungry for lunch, and I 275 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: was just like, I am being pulled in so many 276 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: directions in this millisecond, and that this is every day 277 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: for me um and had been since March. I just 278 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: it just was not something that could go on in 279 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: that way. And so I think, you know, I has 280 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: a term to use, the term radicalize, because I think 281 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: it's overused, but I think a lot of moms were 282 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: radicalized by that moment um. They realized how little our 283 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,479 Speaker 1: country does to support parents and that no one was 284 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: coming to fix it, and that really stuck with them. 285 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: Even now, you know where things obviously the COVID is 286 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: still going on, but you know, things are somewhat back 287 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: to normal in terms of our schools being open and 288 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: you know, many services is being back to at least 289 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: some semblance of where they were. But I think that 290 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: sort of feeling of I want to say, almost betrayal 291 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: has stuck with people. I know that Melinda Gates talks 292 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: about the fact that when all is said and done, 293 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: women spent a total of seven years taking care of 294 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: domestic chores, children, ailing parents, on and on, and it's 295 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: it's it's a seven more additional years than their partners. 296 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: Hasn't that changed a little bit? Aren't fathers? I feel 297 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: like my late husband when our kids were super small, 298 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: because they were only two and six when he died, 299 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: But I did feel like in those early years my 300 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: husband Jay really was we co parented, and aren't more 301 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: couples doing that now? Absolutely? And I think so many 302 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: dads stepped up. I mean, you know, if you look 303 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: at this societal wide, yes, mothers are absolutely still doing more, 304 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: but so many dad's not only stepped up, but I 305 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: think that there is this perception that dads don't want 306 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: to be involved with their kids, which is a lie. 307 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: Many many dads want to spend more time with their children. 308 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: And I think that was also a takeaway of many 309 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: people during the pandemic was it was incredibly hard. I mean, 310 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: my kids brew three and seven when it started. My 311 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: husband at the beginning was probably doing more childcare than 312 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: I was, because his work had slowed down a little bit, 313 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: whereas mine was like just wall to wall, like it 314 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: was the biggest news event in parenting that had ever 315 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: been right, right, right, So you know, especially at the 316 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: beginning of the I would say in March and April, 317 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: he was doing probably se of stuff with our kids. 318 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: Um so lots of dads I think not only are 319 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: more involved, but want to be more involved and find 320 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: it incredibly unfair that the structures of our country are 321 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: such that they cannot be more involved. I mean, put 322 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: eternity leave is there's as much as we don't have 323 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: enough paid maternity leave. It's even worse for paid paternity leave. 324 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: I mean, my husband got a single day off when 325 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: our second daughter was born, one one day. He was 326 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: not happy about it. He was really unhappy about it. 327 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: So I think it is less uh from a desire 328 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: to be like they want to be with their kids. 329 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: I think again, it is the way society is structured 330 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: that prevents them from doing so. And I do think 331 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: again the change is incremental, but I do feel as 332 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: leadership of companies and politicians are get you know, the 333 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: rising generations have experienced a more egalitarian society, we will 334 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: see more and more change. It just is going to 335 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: take time. Well, let's talk about what change needs to happen, 336 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: not only from government policy perspective, but from a corporate 337 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: America perspective and from a kind of cultural educational attitude perspective. 338 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: If that covers all the bases. Okay, so politically, you know, 339 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: that's the easiest answer, although the hardest to make happen. 340 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: It's like paid leave, paid parental leave, paid sick leave. Um. 341 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: You know, universal health care I feel like would fix 342 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: so many ills because I think a lot of parents 343 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: stay in jobs that are bad for them and their 344 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: families because their healthcare is attached to them. And Helen Peterson, 345 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: who was lovely enough to blurve my book, uh, we 346 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: did a podcast together and she described the lack of 347 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 1: universal health care or that you know, our jobs are 348 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: attached to healthcare the original sin of the workplace because 349 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't allow parents to you know, maybe take a 350 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: job that has more flexibility because the only jobs that 351 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: have health care are absolutely full time. That's just really 352 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: the way it is. UM. So that sort of morass 353 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: needs to be fixed. UM. In terms of the workplace. 354 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: Beyond that, UM, I think accepting that when people have 355 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: young children, they are going to desire more flexibility in 356 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: their lives. Um, And that that doesn't mean that they 357 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: are less productive. I mean, there's so many statistics coming 358 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: out of the pandemic that showed that in fact, remote 359 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: workers were more productive than you know, in office workers, 360 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: So just sort of rethinking a lot of office norms. UM. 361 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: Certainly many many jobs need to be in person, but 362 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: just sort of reevaluating the way things have always been 363 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: and whether that is serving most people. Because we're not 364 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: just talking about parents here. Most people will have to 365 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: care for other humans at some point in their lives, 366 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: whether that is elder care, whether that is caring for 367 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: a spouse, whether that's caring for friends. I mean, we 368 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: just devalue care in every possible way, so it's not 369 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: just parents. I think it is. Actually one of the 370 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: problems is that we just associate this desiring of flexibility 371 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: and humanity UM with mothers, because it is simply not 372 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: true that only mothers desire that kind of flexibility for caregiving. 373 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: So that's really important. UM. I almost think the cultural 374 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: piece is the hardest UM, because we have so many 375 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: ingrained expectations UM. And that was one of the things 376 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: I really wanted with the book was to think about 377 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,479 Speaker 1: my own assumptions and the own the pressures I had 378 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: put on myself UM, and tried to figure out where 379 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: these even came from. Like we already talked about sort 380 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: of pregnancy, but to this day and my older daughter 381 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: is almost ten. I still feel guilty about being sick 382 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: when I was pregnant with her, even though it was 383 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: completely out of my control. And so just asking where 384 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: does the idea that you are supposed to feel good 385 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: during pregnancy even come from? Because most people don't feel 386 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: great at least at some point, even if you're not 387 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: going up every second of the day. Um, So it's 388 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: just sort of every time you feel like you're not 389 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: measuring up, just even asking yourself, why do I feel 390 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: this way? Where is this pressure coming from? And it 391 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: is it? Is it from a place that is working 392 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: for me? I mean sometimes I feel pressure and guilt 393 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: and it's it's okay, Like I have a lot on 394 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: my plate. I want to do a lot of things. 395 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: So it's okay to feel stressed and guilty some of 396 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: the time. But I think continually asking yourself where these 397 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: expectations are coming from and if they're coming from a 398 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: place that you actually respect. The good news, Jessica is 399 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: that people are talking about it. I think companies are 400 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: taking it seriously. I think is the workplace is being 401 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: re evaluated. Um you know, everyone is giving this a 402 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: lot more thought because of the pandemic. So maybe in 403 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: a weird way, that's the silver lining. And I know, 404 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: as somebody who came up in a very traditional kind 405 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: of work environment, I myself have my own implicit biases 406 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: about Oh, people working from home, they're goofing off, they're 407 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: eating candy and watching soap operas, which are you know, 408 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: have been ingrained in me for some weird reason. And 409 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: it's just not true. When you look at all the 410 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: studies about productivity, it doesn't matter where you are. In fact, 411 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: people get more done often when they're working remote. And 412 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: I read an interesting article it's always also when you work, 413 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: because some people want to work at night when their 414 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: kids are in bed, and some people. You know, having 415 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: that flexibility will not only make people happier and more 416 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: productive in their in their home life, but happier and 417 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: more productive in their work life too. Absolutely, And I 418 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: think it's just we're all going to have the things 419 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: that we're tough on ourselves about. But like I said, 420 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: it's just continually asking yourself, where did these ideas come from? 421 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: And why do I think this way? And is it 422 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: valuable to me and my family to think this way? Yeah, 423 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: take a moment and reflect. Dr Becky Kennedy, or Dr Becky, 424 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: as she's known to her millions of followers, is a 425 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: clinical psychologist who became Instagram's favorite parenting guru during the pandemic. 426 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: In the three years since launching her Instagram account, Dr 427 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: Becky has built a membership based parenting community called Good Inside, 428 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: launched a podcast of the same name, and has written 429 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: a book called Good Inside, A Guide to Becoming the 430 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: Parent You Want to Be. Because Dr Becky seems to 431 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: have broken through the cluttered parent teen market and is 432 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: really tapped into the problems modern mothers and father's face, 433 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: we thought she might have some insights into some of 434 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: the issues Jessica just talked about. You filled a huge 435 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: need during the pandemic. I know, before America shut down, 436 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: you didn't have an Instagram account. Now you have one 437 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: point five million followers, a book, a little bit of 438 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: a many empire going. So why do you think, Becky, 439 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: you hit such a chord. And by the way, I've 440 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: never been so grateful to have grown children then in 441 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: the last few years, because hats off to all the 442 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 1: mothers and fathers, parents everywhere who had to juggle and 443 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: deal with so much. And I love that shout out 444 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: to everyone listening who had young kids, who had teenagers, 445 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: who had their first baby, who were single parents, who 446 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: are going through a divorce, who are who are married, 447 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: and still like, no matter what, it was hard, it 448 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: was so hard. And actually, the other thing we were 449 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: talking about before this was how important it is to 450 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: kids to to just name what's true, to talk about 451 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: the hard stuff. We often think we're protecting them by 452 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: not but I think we're actually increasing a lot of 453 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: their anxiety because again then they feel alone and we're 454 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: confused and confused. Nobody likes feeling alone and confused. Those 455 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: two things together are awful, right, So I think during 456 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: the pandemic, I think something that really maybe like help 457 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: me hit a stride with people as I do. I 458 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: think I've always been someone who has never shied away 459 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: from naming the hard, like even say this is hard. 460 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 1: We all yell at our kids, this pandemic sucks, This 461 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: is so difficult. You are doing an impossible thing. You 462 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: are a warrior. You did not mess up your kid 463 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: forever when you yelled. Here are some words you can use. 464 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: And I think during that time of so much uncertainty, yeah, 465 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: when people knew like Okay, I can go somewhere and 466 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: there'll be someone who's naming something that feels right on 467 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: to what's actually happening in my house, who's not telling 468 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: me necessarily how to make it all better, but who's 469 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: just helping me tolerate how hard this is. Yeah. I 470 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: think we all needed that. And I think that you 471 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: were hearing the desperate cries of mother's everywhere. What were 472 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: they saying to you? What were they struggling with? I 473 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: guess just about everything, right, Yeah, I mean I think 474 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: that the biggest thing they were struggling with is like, 475 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: is is this tell me this is as hard as 476 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: it feels, you know, Like, and it's one of my 477 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: core mantras for parenting is just this feels hard because 478 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: it is hard, not because I'm doing something wrong. And 479 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: I always think that when something's really hard, if we 480 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: can just validate for ourselves. Wait, I'm not a horrible parent, 481 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: Like this just actually is really hard to be home 482 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: with two kids in a pandemic or even at this stage, 483 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: this is really hard to manage through a tantrum and 484 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: a grocery store. We don't then layer on the self blame, 485 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: which goes into I'm a horrible parent. I messed up 486 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: this forever. If people saw me, they wouldn't believe that 487 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: I'm the type of parent. When we add that layer, 488 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: I think hard becomes impossible. And when we remove that layer, 489 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: which is the impossible, it's still hard, but hard is 490 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: is far superior to impossible. Well that's interesting too, because 491 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: who's to say that first time parent or even a 492 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: second third time parent has all the answers. It is 493 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: really a kind of learn as you go process. And 494 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: there isn't really a handbook for handling this. No. I mean, 495 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: this is the thing that gets me super fired up. Um, 496 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: and I think is such a larger sociological problem that 497 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: I feel like most drawn to, almost more than any 498 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: you know one parenting problem, this bigger problem, which is 499 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. 500 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: And it's a job we have for a lot of years. 501 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: Like your kids are older, you're still a parent, Like 502 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: you still parent. And most jobs in this country that 503 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: we value that we think are important, we really prioritize 504 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: the people in those jobs getting training and resources. And 505 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: not only that, Like if I think about a surge 506 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: and I'd ever go to because I would think surgery 507 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: is like another really important, you know, really hard job. 508 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: I would never see a surgeon who like got their 509 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: tips on Instagram, Like I'd be like, oh, okay, like 510 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: did you get training? And the surgeon who got the 511 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: most training, the surgeon who had ongoing support. I think 512 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: all of us would look at that surgeon positively, not 513 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: like what's wrong with you? I'd be like, that's amazing, 514 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, when can I get an appointment? And with parenting, 515 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: it's the opposite, where we just take this baby home 516 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: from the hospital. We're given nothing. There's this bullshit about 517 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: maternal instinct, right, so it's kind of saying if you 518 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: are struggling, it's your fault, you know, as opposed to 519 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: if I am struggling, maybe I wasn't set up to thrive, 520 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: and maybe there are resources and support I can then 521 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: go invest in, not just for my kids, but again 522 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: just so I can feel more confident. So I think 523 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: you're right, and I think that's a huge shift we need. 524 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: Mothers have always had just incredible pressure to be perfect, 525 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: and now more than ever, they are assaulted really by 526 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: images and advice and honestly, this manufactured idea on social 527 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: media of momfluencers and look at me looking beautiful while 528 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: I'm taking my child to the park. I mean, it's 529 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: just everywhere. How do you advise parents to not let 530 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: that permeate their psyches and make them strive for really 531 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: unachievable goals as a parent, So many things I'd want 532 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: to say to that. So, first of all, I really 533 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: think good inside is this approach that helps parents become 534 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: sturdier leaders. And being a sturdier leader, I think really 535 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: comes from learning to gaze in and notice, like what 536 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: do I have? What do I know? Versus do I 537 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: need to define who I am and how much I'm 538 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: worth based on things outside of me? And so I 539 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: actually think, you know what, we hear a lot in 540 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: our communities. They feel so much less permeable, so much 541 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,239 Speaker 1: less horsts to the social media world, and even I 542 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: hear all the time like I've stopped following various accounts 543 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: that I used to follow because I felt like it 544 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: was this you know, ideal version of who I wanted 545 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: to be, and I realized, you know, forget what we 546 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: could say it's fake or whatever, it just it wasn't 547 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: good for me. I love hearing that from parents. It 548 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: doesn't make me feel good, right, And I think in 549 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: social media, noticing what accounts make me feel empowered and 550 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: what accounts make me feel anxious and shitty about ourselves. 551 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: It's like the way we all need to cleanse our 552 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: you know, social media. And I also think that a 553 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: lot of this idea of perfect motherhood is intertwined with 554 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: this idea of motherhood is martyrdom. So the perfect mother 555 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: ideal we hear about on social media is not you know, 556 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: the parent who's you know, prioritizing themselves at times setting boundaries. 557 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: It's like, look at the Pinterest crafts I've created. I've 558 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: spent eight hours pouring myself out, even though underneath I 559 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,479 Speaker 1: feel reachful and resentful, and I haven't done a thing 560 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: for myself in the last two years. Right, There's nothing 561 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: that I care is passionately about as much as changing 562 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: that idea of motherhood is martyrdom. I also think that 563 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons we created, frankly our membership 564 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: that parents would say, like, I want this parenting content. 565 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: It's so deep, like it doesn't solely belong on social media, 566 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: and I don't want to see it next to an 567 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: account that makes me feel bad. Or next to something 568 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 1: that's making me buy shoes I don't really want to buy, 569 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: you know, frankly, And so I think us all having 570 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: spaces to connect with other parents away from this like 571 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: shiny ideal is so important, whether we find that in 572 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: an online community, whether we find that in our in 573 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: real life community. The only place we get parenting information 574 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: cannot be the world of social media, which yet sets 575 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: us up to feel not good enough. And how do 576 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: you handle sort of you being held up as this 577 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: kind of ideal and people worrying that maybe you're you're 578 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: sitting in judgment of the Yeah, I mean, and I 579 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: really mean this to anyone even listening, or like if 580 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: people do feel like that with me, like I I 581 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: really mean, I want to know right away. That would 582 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: be super important because I very much want to always 583 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: be part of the other camp. And I think it's 584 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: why first of all, like I never wear that much makeup, 585 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: Like I never you know, wear much besides the white 586 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: T shirt and legging, So like that's how I sew 587 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: up on social media, like I generally have food in 588 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: my teeth, and so like that's why I show up 589 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: that social media. Um, and I think I try to 590 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: say as often as possible, things like I don't think 591 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: I did the stuff with my kids all the time. 592 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: So here's what I did when I yelled at my 593 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: own kid. Here's why I repair is so important because, yeah, 594 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: I think we all need a model of parenting that 595 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: gives us ideas we might not have thought about, because 596 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: that just helps all of us grow. But holds that 597 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: right next to you know, just human nous and and 598 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: that's what you know I try to do. And that's 599 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: super important to me. So anyone out there who thinks 600 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: I like, I don't even know what you mean the 601 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: answers that all the answers you always do it right, 602 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: I think you are very vulnerable. And the way you 603 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: communicate your ideas acknowledging that, hey, this is how I 604 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: did it. In other words, this is how I corrected 605 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: something I was doing wrong. Yeah, And like someone coming 606 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: to me, I really mean this. I feel very good 607 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: if someone's like, here's what's going on with my kid, 608 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: Can you help me understand it differently? Can you help 609 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: me think of other ways to interview? And I do 610 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: feel really good about doing that. But like, if that 611 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: exact situation happened with my kid in my home live, Like, 612 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: don't think Dr Becky would be responding like Becky, who's human, 613 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: who has triggers, who's overwhelmed, Like I would need my 614 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: own consultation with Dr Becky after and be like what 615 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: should I do? You know? So, my husband's always like 616 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: I always wanted to tag your personal account on your 617 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: Instagram account. And one time he's like, you would really 618 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: like this real? And he send it to me and 619 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: I pulled it up with like my own real. I 620 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: was like, damn it, like you know because I was 621 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: like super reactive with my kids that day, right, So 622 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: just being real, Yeah, I think not a real but 623 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: real yes, nobody, right, nobody, nobody has it together all time, 624 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,919 Speaker 1: and and like I really mean this, I wouldn't wish 625 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: Dr Becky on my kids as their parents, Like I 626 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: can't imagine my kids going to adulthood being like you 627 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: know what love and closeness and healthy relationships are someone 628 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: always being attuned to what's going on for you and 629 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,959 Speaker 1: understanding you, Like if there's something that's going to set 630 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: them up for a history of like really awful relationships, 631 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: because they'll never get into one because they're gonna be like, 632 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: but where is my perfect partner, it would be that expectation, right, 633 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: So I want my kids to know that in general, 634 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: I approached them with respect and understanding and seeing that 635 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: good inside them, and when I don't, inevitably, I will 636 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: more often than not go to repair. And I think 637 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: that is what kids need, not some quote perfect parent 638 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: which doesn't exist anyway. She had so many interesting and 639 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: important things to say that we thought Dr Becky deserved 640 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: an episode all her own, so we're releasing our conversation 641 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: in full. You can find it in my Next Question 642 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: feed beginning tomorrow, December two. You'll hear us get into 643 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: all of it. Dr Becky's unique parenting philosophy, the importance 644 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: of repair, and why we all could benefit from looking 645 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: inward and reparenting ourselves. Honestly, it was so eye opening 646 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: that'll be in Part two of our Parenting Deep Dive. Now, 647 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: a huge thank you to both my guests, Dr Becky 648 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: Kennedy and Jessica Gross. You can sign up for Jessica's 649 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: parenting newsletter at New York Times dot com, and her book, 650 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: Screaming on the Inside The Unsustainability of American Motherhood is 651 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 1: out December six. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a 652 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Media and Katie Kuric Media. The 653 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: executive producers Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz. The supervising 654 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: producer is Lauren han Sin. Associate producers Derek Clements and 655 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrek Clements. 656 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up 657 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie 658 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie 659 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: Currect on Instagram and all my social media channels. For 660 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 661 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your 662 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: favorite shows.