WEBVTT - Shirley Manson 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.640 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to this week's edition of The Bad 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:09.840 Left Sex Podcast. My guest this week is vocalist extraordinaire 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:18.960 lead singer of Garbage, Shirley Manson. Shirley, Okay, you're from Scotland. 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.200 We are really Scotland ignorant here. Okay, what's it like 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:27.560 growing up in Scotland. Well, you know, at the time, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.440 it didn't feel so fantastic, but looking back on it 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:32.720 now I realized what a privilege it was, you know, 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.280 because it's a small island and it was a time 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:38.519 I was. I was born in sixty six, so I 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:40.120 grew up in the seventies and it was at a 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.960 time when the British government actually paid for education. They 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.199 put money into it and we all had government run 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.680 schools and they were and they were well funded. So 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.360 I had a great education I had. I came from 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.160 a family, three children. My mom and dad loved each 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:59.840 other until death did they part. And I think, now, no, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.959 what I know, that's really unusual to certainly with the 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.119 younger generations. I mean, the only thing I I haven't 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.480 been to Scotland, but there was that movie and I 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:10.720 can't remember there was a famous movie maker talking about 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.440 the ice cream war in do you know that? Was 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.120 that Donny Boyle thing? God, I can't remember. But in 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.240 any event, where did you actually grow up in Scotland? 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.600 But how do you how do you pronounce that? Edinburgh? Edinburgh? Okay? 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.000 Ed okay? And what did your father do for a living? 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.880 My father was a university professor, really, and what did 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:36.440 he teach? He taught animal breeding in sort of genetics 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.280 and animal breeding, poultry breeding as well. He would come 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.120 home for dinner. Would he talk about that? Very rarely? 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.280 I mean he he as we got older, he would 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.280 talk about the genetic program because they were his sort 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:52.160 of university cloned Dolly the Sheep. I don't know if 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:54.480 you remember that, but Dolly the Sheep. So that was 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.800 his faculty that really. Yeah. So he started to talk 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.760 up to us about genetics and we are so bored, 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.800 we can you know? Okay, So if I take you 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.560 out on the ranch with the animals, you're as clueless 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.840 as I am. Well, maybe not quite as clueless as you, Bob. 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.600 We got the Huber going at this point in time, okay. 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:16.440 And did your mother work outside of the house. My 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.600 mother sort of eventually as we were growing up when 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.840 we were teenagers. She's she became a medical reception as 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.680 she looked after a bunch of doctors. But she really 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.960 was pretty much a housewife, which is a terminology that's 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.919 thankfully becoming, you know, obsolete, but she she was. She 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.799 called herself a housewife, right, I guess you know now 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:37.640 they say, you know she works, but she works in 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.280 the home. But okay, so where are you in the 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.919 hierarchy of the middle child? The real messed up one 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.480 the middle of three? And who else is a boy 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.400 or a girl? All three girls? All three girls. I'm 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:54.919 a middle child too, so sorry, Okay, my older sister 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.360 she believes you can conquer the world, and my younger 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:00.600 sister is the baby could always trying to get out 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:02.720 of this, and I was kind of lost in the middle. Yeah, 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.040 I had exactly the same experience. It's really I was 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.560 married to one who was also a middle kid. I 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.720 wonder whether that was part of the connection. Because you're 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.000 kind of overlooked. You feel you you're overlooked. I don't 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.560 think you actually are, but that's how I think I 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:19.880 perceived it. And I also got hand me done clothes 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:21.519 all the time. I never got new clothes. When I 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.840 was growing up, I was always my sister's clothes, and 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.160 by the time I had worn through the set of clothes, 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:28.200 my little sister got brand new clothes. So I mean 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.960 I was twisted, you know, yeah, yeah, the level of resentment. 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:33.200 I didn't have that problem because by older and younger 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.280 siblings were sisters. But I know, I know exactly what 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.760 you're talking about. And Okay, what kind of kid are 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.280 you growing up? Are you a rebellious kid? Are you 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.880 kind of you know, obey's orders. For the first sort 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.200 of twelve years of my life, I obeyed orders. I 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:54.320 was an incredibly devout a student, and I, you know, 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.160 had a great faith in Jesus, and I was interested 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.760 in religion and all kinds of things. I was very sweet, 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:05.320 pretty h sort of conventional kid, and then the hormones 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.000 kicked in and I went mental. Okay, did you go 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.160 to public school or did you go to Catholic school? 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.280 Well it's a good question because we call public schools 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.640 private school. We went to government funded You went to 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:18.720 government funded schools, but you had a strict Catholic family. 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.240 I did not. I came up in a Protestant family. 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.240 My dad was my Sunday school teacher, which also didn't 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.520 help my No, no, no, no, you can imagine. I 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:32.239 can't imagine. That kind of messed me up good too. 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.760 So yeah, okay, but you were a big believer. I 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.040 was a huge believer. How about today you believe today? 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.400 I'm a nonbeliever now. And what was the transition? How 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.440 did you decide that there wasn't a little man in 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.360 this guy who was deciding whether you've been naughty or nice? Well, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.600 it started off with just a sort of sudden observation 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.120 of the people in our church that we went that 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.520 we went to. I noticed that they did not adhere 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:03.240 to the principles that were, you know, ceremonized, and I 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:08.040 started to smell hypocrisy. And I then would meet people 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.000 who were nonbelievers who actually did seem to practice some 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:16.480 kind spiritual practice. We have that in government today. All 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.839 the people seemingly were anti abortion have had an abortion 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.960 themselves or their partners had an abortion. It's just crazy. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.159 So in any event, you turned age twelve, the hormones 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:30.400 kicking and you freak out. What does that look like? Well, I, 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.200 having been a pretty good student, I just stopped paying 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:38.600 attention in school. I stopped going to school. I started smoking, 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:43.159 I started flirting with you know self, drugs. I became 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.440 interested in boys. I got involved in a youth theater 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:50.360 in a band A little bit slower in America, it's 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.720 kind of like the Little Rascals, if you know those 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.159 Saturday Morning Carly, there's a Truman officer and if you 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.159 skip school, they're gonna track you down. So you're skipping 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.760 school and your father was in the educational system. Was 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.160 anybody aware of the fact you were skipping school? Well 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.040 not at first, and actually it was my dad who 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.480 busted me in the end. Um. But no, the teachers 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.360 didn't really notice because of the way that our system 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.719 worked at that time. UM. So I'd always appear for registrations, 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.000 so you were there when they called the roll call, 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:22.560 and then I would just go home. But my my 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:26.599 my house was like jammed up against the playground of 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.039 the school, so I could just get home to my 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:33.120 bedroom in about five seconds. So it's very convenient for 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.279 skipping school until you had your father find out. He 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.560 came home one day unexpectedly and find me in my 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.960 bedroom with a bunch of pals smoking. I don't know 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.479 why else we were up to you went absolutely mental, 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:50.640 and he called the head master and he dubbed me in. 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:52.640 He was like, my child is here, she should be 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:54.800 at school. I'm sending her in to see you right now. 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.560 And he sent me to the head master and I got. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:03.400 I can't remember what happened, but I got well royally punished. 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.200 I had to do like after school punishment and all 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.119 that stuff. Well did it set you on a straight 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.720 course or did you continue to diverge from the straight 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.640 and arrow. I continue, even at fifty one, to diverge 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:15.520 from the straight and now. Well, it's kind of funny. 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.560 It's hard to diverge from the straight and arrow. We 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:19.720 live in it. I'm older than you are, but certainly 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.880 lived through the sixties. It was the opposite of group think, 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.080 and now there's total group think. And if you feel otherwise, 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:28.720 you're really scorned by society. You end up feeling like 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.800 a party of one. That's my experience. You know, I'm 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:33.840 really lucky, and that I don't have that experience. I 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.760 know exactly what you're talking about, and I think that 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.800 does exist, and it's becoming more and more prevalent. But 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.360 I was really lucky and that I had a very 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:47.280 strong minded father who had very definitive ideas, and I 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.160 would fight against him over and over and over again 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.080 for years, to the point where I learned to hold 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.200 my owner in an argument. If he didn't, you know, 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.760 agree with me, that was cool. If I didn't agree 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:00.640 with him, it was cool. He so he was really 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.280 fair that way, and so I just learned to have 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:07.640 to develop my own system of ideas and beliefs. Do 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:11.400 you think he was doing that to inculcate that behavior 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.880 in yourself or do you think he was really rigid 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.400 and you were just a rebel? Neither of the bob. 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.760 I think he is quite rebellious my dad. Is he 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:25.160 still with us, Yes, he's still with us. He's eighty one, 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:30.200 and he's very full of vigor and as a rigorous thinker. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.680 And I think he enjoyed being challenged by me, because 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.280 he often, of course when you have young children, he 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.520 would browbeat me easily for years and years and years, 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.720 and then eventually, as I became a little more skilled 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.600 at arguing in my late teens, he I think he enjoyed. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.319 It was like it was like a sport for him, 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.000 And it actually is a little bit of a sport 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:51.680 for me now like I can argue with anyone. I 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.520 don't take it personally. I don't get upset when people 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.480 don't agree with me. I find it really interesting. I 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.080 love to argue, and no one wants to argue anymore. 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:05.560 Like it's really when you when you give a contrary opinion, 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.600 it's like spinal tap person. No, my amp goes to eleven. 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.160 I mean, I don't want to do it for my 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:17.680 own personal aggrandization, whatever aggrandization, whatever the word might be. 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:20.480 It's it's fun to wrestle and tease out the issues 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.800 and makes me think afterward. But today everyone thinks they 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.440 have the answer. They can't see two different sides of 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.600 the coin, and they're very you. You look like the 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.439 curmudgeon when you go out there and you disagree with people. Well, 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:33.720 I think there's a couple of factors at play. I 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.480 think some people feel that they are not they don't 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.400 have conviction necessarily and what they believe like no matter, 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.240 I am wrong all the time, but I do have conviction. 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:48.040 I believe really strongly and what I believe, and um, 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:50.600 I think some people get shaken when you disagree with them, 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:55.480 and or they feel like they're losing an argument if 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:57.959 you even challenge the argument, and they've got this some 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.000 weird idea about how they must win. They must win. 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.480 Society's put all this pressure and must to be winners. 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.080 You can't be a loser. I don't mind being a loser. 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.319 I mean that's really well described. But will you change 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.960 your opinion all the time? It makes me crazy if 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.240 you change your opinion because I'm writing my opinions down 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.560 and I say, hey, life evolved, It's like only in Washington, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.679 d C. You can't change your opinion. So let's go back. 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.280 Your two sisters. Where are they today? My little sister, 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:26.920 it was how much younger? Is two years younger than me. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.160 She's done in London doing what she works for a 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:36.960 photographic agent, so they support photographers in the fashion industry primarily. Um, 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.040 my big sister is two years older than me. It's 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.640 exactly like my favorite. We've got common here around. I 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:49.080 feel your pain, brother. But my big sister she works 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.960 in She was an intensive care nurse practically our whole 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.360 career and now has has sort of semi moved into 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:01.400 health education. She teaches nurses. Now are they reader in relationships? 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:04.880 My oldest sister is in a relationship. My youngest sister 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.920 is married with two kids. Okay, but you've never been married, right, 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.040 I am married? You are married. I guess I was unaware. 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.720 How long have you been married? Eight years? Eight years? 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:15.400 And is this your only marriage? No, this is my 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.560 second marriage. Okay, we'll save this for later. Okay, so 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:24.160 you're rebelling. Do you finish school? Not exactly. That's kind 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.000 of a black and white you know, yes or no question. Yeah, 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.079 I didn't get past high school. I started flunked out 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.600 in my last I should have stayed on for another 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:35.760 year and I didn't have flunked out and I got 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:39.199 really bad examination results, and my parents were really disappointed 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.040 in me, and there was a lot of silence over 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.440 the dinner table at home. Okay, well, here the crisis 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.960 would be, if you drop out of high school, you 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.400 have to go to work. That is correct. My dad 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:52.880 said that to me, said, okay, you're you know you've 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.120 crapped out of high school. You need to go get 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.719 yourself a job. And did you? I did? And what 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:02.600 was that job? I worked in a female fashion shop, 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.679 a little like Forever twenty one. It was called miss Selfridge. 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:11.560 And how long did that last? Five? Years, five years 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.880 and any upwards, any any upward mobility, or you're just 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.640 the sales clerk in the shop for five years. I 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.199 don't say this for comic relief. I was actually demoted. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:26.680 I started off. I started off as a sales clerk 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:29.920 what we call the shop assistant, and then I was 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.720 demoted to the stock room because I was unpleasant, quote unquote, 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:37.400 I was unpleasant to the customers. I love that. I 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.640 love that. So you're unpleasant. But they didn't fire you. 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:44.720 They didn't fire me. Okay. And at the time, okay, 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.760 you're smoking dope, drinking what are you doing. I was 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.319 doing a lot of speed. That was my drug of choice, 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:58.000 and I like the feeling of being fast. Okay and 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.360 okay going. Was there music in your house growing up? Yeah, 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:03.720 there was a lot of music in my house. My 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:07.600 mom was a sort of semi amateur singer, um semi 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.920 professional should I say. She sang with us a swing 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.320 band called the Squadron Ears before I was born, and 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.959 then she used to sing for like weddings and concert 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.800 parties at the church. And hey, you're playing footsie with me, Bob, 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.760 you have very long I can't believe. I like to 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:25.920 reach that far the first time this has ever happened 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:30.000 here on the podcast. But I noticed I touched before. 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.959 I didn't even notice that time. But when she was professional, 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:37.000 before you were born, how serious was that? Not particularly serious? 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.079 I mean, my mom got bless her. She didn't have 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.320 a lot of confidence in herself, so nothing she did 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.640 she considered very serious. But she was a good singer, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.160 and she loved music, and she introduced me to music, 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.760 and my love of music comes from her. Okay, so 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.280 would she play records in the house? Yes, what kind 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.000 of records? She introduced me to a lot of like Elephants, Gerald, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.719 Nina Simon, sat von Um. She loved Barbara Streisan, she 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:04.520 of Barry Manilo, and she loved show tunes. The show 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.440 too was a similar thing growing up. My mother played 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:10.840 them all the time. But and she is deceased. My 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.079 my mom too, right now, My mother's alive. My father's dead, 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.560 been dead for twenty five years. My mother's ninety one. 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:18.600 But your mother, based on what you said earlier, your 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.360 mother is no longer with no longer with How long 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.680 ago did she pass? About nine years ago? Okay, your 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:31.000 father ever got involved in another relationship, Yes he has, 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.920 He has not. Is he a serial data or is 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.960 that one specific woman. There's been a couple of women 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.400 he's been interested in and has pursued with great passion 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.200 and vigor and has gotten his own way a couple 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.360 of times. And so what do you what does that 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.600 feel like being his daughter? Well, it was funny. I 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.720 was cool with it because I knew my dad loved 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.240 my mom and I knew that, you know, there was 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.040 nothing going to bring my mom back, So I wanted 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.240 my dad to have happiness. So it didn't bother me. 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.640 It creaked me out a wee bit, you know. I 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.160 thinking about my dad having an erection was just too 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.760 much to care. But I was cool with him having 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.240 fun in his life. I wanted that for him. But 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.480 my younger sister had She wrestled with it the hardest. 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.440 She she she found it difficult to accept. Well, how 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.440 long after the passing of your mother did he get 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.120 started very quickly? And was your mother's sick or was 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.120 it a sudden death? Yeah, my mom was sick. She 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.560 had a very rare form of dementia, which is called 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.200 Picks disease um and it was very aggressive and sort 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.040 of took her out the game. In about eighteen months. 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:30.360 My mother's you know, is on is on that excursion. 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.160 So I speak speak with her, and she'll go on 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.040 and on. But whatever I tell her today, the next day, 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.320 it'd be like we didn't even discuss. I See, my 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.240 mom's disease wasn't like that. It was a different kind 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.080 of it was. She sort of became just physically difficult 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.040 to operate in the world. She always knew who I was. 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.840 She never didn't know who we were. No. Like I said, 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.880 it was very aggressive, an unusual form of Picks disease, 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.520 and that the doctor in our hometown nobody had ever 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.280 had an incident of this particular type of disease. So 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.000 she was young. She was sixty nine, which she was 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:06.360 diag very young. And so how long did she go undiagnosed. Well, 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.440 here's the other su in our families. I knew there 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.400 was something wrong with my mom. My family told me 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:12.080 I was crazy, But I have the same thing with 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.360 my father. Got canceled. We were having to be in 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.720 Mammoth Lakes, which is a ski area about four hours 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:18.840 from Los Angeles, and I went out with my father 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.560 to pick up a pizza, and my father for the 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:23.720 whole half hour waiting for the pizza, just had his 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:25.760 head in his hand and he was going. And I 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:27.640 came back and I told my mother, oh, you know 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.040 something wrong with our flashes. Oh, he just had a physical. 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.360 He's fine, he's fine. And a week later they found 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:34.920 out the cancer. I'm so sorry. Well, it was a 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.600 long time ago. At this point, it doesn't it's always 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.640 painful to lose your love. Well, my father died at 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:45.160 seventy and when he died, I was not quite forty, 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.600 and I thought, oh, that's a pretty good run. But 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.840 now I say, wow, that's really young. So there's music 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.680 in the household. At what point do you start to 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.440 sing or play yourself. I was playing really young because 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.480 my mom and dad got me into piano lessons on 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.600 singing in an a choir, So that was around about 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.000 seven years old. Did you practice, did I? No? No, no. 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.320 I don't think the piano lessons too. But the practicing 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.520 was the weakly. I found it very hard to practice anything, 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.200 and that has continued throughout my entire life. I'm very 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:18.960 lax about rehearsing and practicing and and actually being a 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.399 good student in that regard. But yeah, I was singing 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.120 and playing by about seven, and that just continued through 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.600 my life. My school picked me out to like learn 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:30.359 the violin, the clarinet, playing the school orchestra. Can you 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:34.000 read music even at this late day, you haven't forgotten it? Now, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.960 you don't forget that people claim to forgotten that Billy 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.760 Joel whatever. But as someone who could read music basically, 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.800 then you occasionally sit down at the piano and then 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:44.320 I look at the bass cliff and I go, there's 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.760 no way. See, it's funny you should say that because 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.240 it's always the bass cleff cliff. That is the hardest 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:50.800 want to remember, but if you just play for a 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.280 wee bit, it comes back. So you're playing it at 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.359 this point. Do you ever have an light bulb go 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:58.960 off and say this is what I'd like to do 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:04.720 from my life? No? Ever, So what changes you know? This? 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:06.040 This is a bit of a long on Boing story. 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.639 I've told it a million times, but nothing ever changed, 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.000 Nothing ever changed. No, I stumbled from pillar to post 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.919 literally as my entire That is certainly a Scottish expression. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.160 No one in America is going to say pillar to post. Well, 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.119 but you get the express, the idea. I know what 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:26.159 you said. The expression. But nothing in my life has 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.600 ever been planned. I have my My entire career has 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.720 been made up of stumbling from one place to the 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.320 next and no plan, no real solid ambition. Although my 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.040 dad claims that that's not true, but I don't remember 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.760 having any major ambition to do much except be a ballerina. 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.159 That's what I really burned to do. Then I couldn't 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:46.640 do that because I got too tall and I hurt 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:48.800 my ankle. So then I wanted to be an actress. 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:50.520 This is it? What age? What age do you hurt 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:57.000 your ankle? I was It's a good question. Then you 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.280 want to be an actor? Do you act on that? 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.280 Do you actually act in school plays? I had a 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.760 drama teacher that took great interest in me and got 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.439 me out into Edinburgh Youth Theater. Outside of the school 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.720 as well, she encouraged me to like audition for drama 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.040 school and so and so forth. I didn't get into 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.760 drama school. And that's suwhere that I didn't get into 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.840 drama school. I got approached by this guy that I 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.640 had met at Edinburgh Theater who needed a keyboard player 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:25.200 in his band. And because you know, I've been living 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:29.240 in l along doesn't just happen. So how was he 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.080 aware that you played the keyboard? Well, I think he 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:35.000 maybe asked me. He was very interested in me sexually. Okay, 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.440 that's straightforward. He was more interested in me, I think, 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.560 sexually than he was my my musical skills. But he 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:43.880 knew I played pianos so and he knew he could 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.280 lure me into his band to play keyboards. But you 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.520 had to say yes. I didn't have to see yes. 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.640 Say yes. I did see it. So what was your 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.880 inspiration for saying yes? Because I've just been rejected from 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.439 drama college, so I had nothing else to do, and 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.200 so for want of some entertainment in my life, I 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.520 joined the band. And this was at what age fifteen 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.000 or sixteen? Okay, So you go and you have this band. 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.880 What kind of music you play? Well, you would call 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:16.520 it alternative pop rock. Okay, we're the originals were playing 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.320 was on the hip Parade? They were originals. I can't 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:21.919 ask me if they were on the hip three. That 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.920 is the cutest thing I've ever been asked. I think. 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.240 So they were originals. And in the United States, which 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.040 is my frame of reference, it's very hard to get 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.560 work being an upstart band playing originals. So did you 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.720 get gigs with this band? We did get gigs. You know. 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.119 We were lucky that we marriage from Scotland, which had 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:43.080 a small music scene, and so we'd be pretty fast. 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.960 Became quite large fish in a very small poet. Well 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.000 that would you know, seem to say that you were good? 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.480 We were good? So why were you good? We were 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.120 really unique, really original, like we were like no other 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.400 band I have ever seen in my life. I mean, 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.920 we were a right bunch of Motley three. Um, we 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:08.159 were quite rebellious and we we're just very committed to 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:12.240 putting on good shoes. So I have to ask, did 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.160 you have a romantic partnership with that guy who asked you? Yes? 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.760 I did. Okay, how long did that last? I don't know, 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.520 about six months, I think. Okay, when that ended? Did 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:25.320 the band break up? Okay? The band survived. The band survived, 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.439 So how long did the band go on for? And 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:33.720 the name of that band was Goodbye Mr Mackenzie. Okay. 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.960 We'll return to this conversation with Chirley Manson of Garbage 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:42.240 in a moment. You're listening to the Bob Left Sets 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:46.040 podcast recorded at the tune in Studios in Venice, California. 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.360 Each week I interview a new guest and dive into 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.280 their lives and careers. If you enjoy listening to the podcast, subscribe, 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.320 rate and review the show. Please also check out some 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.200 of the earlier episodes, like my conversation with Nancy Wilson 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:01.680 of the band Hard and famous gate boarder Tony Hawk. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:03.840 You can hear them all on tune in the Apple 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.320 podcast or your podcast player of choice. And now more 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:12.400 with Shirley Manson. So when you're in Goodbye, Mr mackenzie, 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:14.680 are you for five years you still working in the shop? 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:18.240 You are correct? Okay? At what point when you stopped 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.639 working in the shop? Are you living off the money 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.120 from the band? Or are you have to get another 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.280 day job? I'm living off my day job, okay, but 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:31.160 after the after working in the shop, excuse me, then 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:35.960 I barely existed off money from the band, barely okay. 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:38.320 Still living at your parents? Are still living at my parents? 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:40.760 You know, in America things have changed. But in my era, 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:42.560 once you got out of high school, parents said you 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:44.320 gotta get out of the house, and of course you 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.159 could afford to live somewhere on minimum wage. Now it's 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.240 just the opposite. Can't afford to living where I'm miimum 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:51.560 wage and people want their kids, and people do move back. 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:53.880 So what did your parents think, You're getting older and older, 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.399 you still living in their house. My mom wanted me 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.879 so there was It was never even discussed, really so 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.159 she did made all your meals, clean your clothes. Not 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:04.879 at that point. I mean I was an adult by 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.679 that point, but no, she she wanted her children amongst 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:09.439 her for as long as she could possibly have them, 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:12.320 and my dad didn't dare question that. Okay, so you're 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:16.679 in the band for ten years. That's a long period 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:18.480 of time and it takes a long time to make it. 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:21.720 But at that time, do you have a fantasy of 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.160 this being a gig in stardom or you just doing it. 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:27.520 I'm doing it because I really loved it. I mean, 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.640 in retrospect, I really did love it, and I wasn't 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:34.040 looking to be rich. I knew it sort of deep down. 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:35.800 I was like, we're never going to be rich, We're 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.880 never going to be hugely successful. But I really love 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:41.360 doing what I get to do. And we traveled a lot, 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:42.520 so it was the first time I got to go 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:45.520 to mainland Europe, go to France, go to Germany, go 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:47.720 to Holland. I mean, I went all over the place 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:50.199 with this band, So that was exciting to me. And 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:54.360 it was enough that of course begs the question, which 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:57.879 you maybe get into later. You're you're touring at a 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.040 relatively low level, and what's it like being a woman 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.960 on the road. You know. I didn't really think about 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:08.000 it too much because in my very first band it 0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:11.800 was very iglitarian and the Scots in general are pretty like, 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:14.000 even in a funny way, in a different way, that 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:18.040 men and women are much more sort of equal in 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:21.840 Scottish society in some ways, and I'm not entirely sure why, 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:23.400 and this is the first time that's ever come out 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:26.120 of my mouth. I'm just sort of speaking of but 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.919 it never was an issue. Sexism was never, in my 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.119 mind an issue. However, looking back on it too, I 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:34.800 wasn't one of the writers in the band. It was 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.880 two male members who kept all the writing to themselves 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.200 and never invited anybody else into the writing dynamics. So 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.200 they were the power seat. And I just didn't care 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:46.959 about money back then, and I didn't care about power 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:49.480 back then, or I didn't even speak in those terms. 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:52.720 I just was having fun and that was enough really, 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:55.800 so there were no ultimate goals down the road. None. 0:24:57.080 --> 0:24:58.879 It's kind of funny that a loser, I'm telling you 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.240 fascinating thing because there's a book called You Just Don't Understand, 0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:05.399 and it sounds like a self help book written by 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:09.720 this PhD. Deborah Tannin, who studies language, and she says, 0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:12.880 men are all about the pecking order, okay, and I'm 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.200 trying to rise to the top where women are about 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:17.520 the community. Like if a guy loses his job, he 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:20.320 loses his identity where she would say a woman. And 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:22.480 of course there exceptions to all this. Well, this is 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:24.480 where I am now, this is where I'll be tomorrow, 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:26.800 and I'm just enjoying what I'm doing now. Yeah, I 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:30.480 mean again, like you say, there's there's they're sweeping generalizations 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.000 right in this exceptions to all the rules. But in 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:36.720 this case, yeah, I think I had been taught from 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:40.719 a very early age basically just to be in the 0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:44.680 clan system, and whatever your seat was in that system 0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:48.160 was your seat. I just accepted my seat. Now that's 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:50.679 changed as I've gotten older, I start to fight from 0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:52.840 my own seat and the seat that I won't but 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:56.960 back then I was very sort of submissive. I guess. 0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:01.399 So the band goes on for ten years, what to 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:06.159 what degree is it successful by worldwide standers? Well, we 0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:08.200 got signed by a large label. We got signed by 0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:11.679 My Records and Capitol Records, and we started bounced between 0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:14.280 those two labels, and we got a big advance, but 0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:16.320 that all went to the writing partners. I didn't see 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:18.800 any of that. But we did get a big advance, 0:26:18.880 --> 0:26:20.560 and there was a great buzz on the band, and 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:25.160 we charted very briefly, um, which was enough to sustain 0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:27.679 us to keep trying and trying and trying for years. 0:26:28.520 --> 0:26:32.200 How many records did you make in that under that moniker? Well, 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:36.320 I think I did four, but after you left they 0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:39.400 did more. They did another two. I think. Okay, so 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:41.880 you did those four and then you made a solo 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:46.080 record under not your own name, correct, Although the soul 0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:49.520 so called solo record was really just a recalibration of 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:51.639 Goodbye Mr. Mackenzie, which was my first band. I e 0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:54.840 the lead singer of Goodby Ms Mackenzie stepped back and 0:26:54.880 --> 0:26:57.800 I took over lead vocals because we had gone to 0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:01.119 Berlin to make a record. Are Lynn. That's funny. I 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:03.640 know what you're talking about, but my brain had a percolate. Person, sorry, 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:07.639 excuse me. Why Berlin? What is this? I don't know 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:10.000 what year this was? What is it with the UK? 0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:13.080 I mean, you know acton Baby? You two went to 0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:18.840 uh Berlin, to Berlin? Why Berlin? Well, David Boye went 0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:22.080 to Berlin, and therefore everybody else wanted to go there. 0:27:22.119 --> 0:27:26.119 And interestingly enough, Acting Baby was being recorded in hans 0:27:26.119 --> 0:27:27.760 of studios at the same time that we were there, 0:27:28.480 --> 0:27:30.520 and so we were all there when the wall came down, 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:32.520 and it was you were literally there when the wall 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:35.919 we were literally was that like crazy? Literally? Somebody just 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:37.920 called us something, went where are you right now? We're like, 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:39.680 we're in the studio. It's like you need to get 0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:42.280 to the wall. They're pulling it down right now. It 0:27:42.440 --> 0:27:44.000 was that quick. I have a piece of the wall 0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:47.720 in my home in Scotland. And so was there any 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:50.399 once you went out to the wall? Was there any fear? No? 0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:53.159 Was it just excitement? Everybody was really excited and it 0:27:53.240 --> 0:27:56.680 was crazy. Well, when I went to Berlin, as you say, 0:27:56.760 --> 0:27:59.280 and you're there in the wall that still remains on 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:02.399 one side as a bunker on the west side is 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:05.399 where you know, underground where Hitler was. On the other side, 0:28:05.440 --> 0:28:07.520 you see where they're the buildings where they wouldn't let 0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:09.720 people live because they were afraid. At first, they were 0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:12.280 using ropes to go over the wall. I mean, you 0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:15.840 get this really heavy feeling. It's really scary. I mean 0:28:15.880 --> 0:28:19.040 when I first went to Berlin, you know, Checkpoint Charlie 0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.440 was still operating and we still had to cross through 0:28:21.480 --> 0:28:23.240 it to get to East Berlin, you know, and East 0:28:23.240 --> 0:28:25.600 Berlin had nothing. You know, you go to eat Berlin 0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:28.040 now and it's like any affluent part of Europe, but 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:30.640 back then it was. It was grim and there wasn't 0:28:30.720 --> 0:28:33.199 much there and people were really struggling. So when you 0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:36.439 in Berlin record you would go to East Berlin and 0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:38.280 with just to see what's going on. And we went 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:40.240 there to see what's going on there, and because it 0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:42.600 was an incredibly hip kind of scene there, you know, 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.560 because it was forbidden and anything bidden people won't right, 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:48.800 So you make the record in Berlin because the lead 0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:54.600 singer was whacked or burned out or kicked out, not 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:57.360 none the above. Good by Ms. Mackenzie went to Hansa 0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:00.000 to to record a record and we just got lost. 0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:03.960 Been a frenzy of partying, and we spent our entire 0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:07.480 recording advance on having fun. And then when we came 0:29:07.520 --> 0:29:10.200 back we had nothing to show for it. We hadn't 0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:14.480 we had no finished music or anything. I can't remember 0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:16.560 a good idea. So you blow all the money. Record 0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:19.080 company stone like that. They hated that, so they dropped 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:21.160 the band, but they held up like the head of 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:24.120 the record label said, I love you. I think you're amazing, 0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:25.880 and you could do something on your own call me 0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:29.080 when you get your ship together. Okay, but you were 0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:31.680 not the lead vocalist. A good bye, Mr mackenzie. So 0:29:31.760 --> 0:29:35.200 why did this person? It was just your overall charisma 0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:38.480 that he felt. I don't know, I've never stopped to 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:40.840 think about it other than he liked me. You know, 0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:43.800 he was a really amazing person at say, his name 0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:45.560 is Gary car First, and he was well, I know 0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:49.560 Gary unfortunately is not with us, unfortunately, but he was. 0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:53.160 Uh he had his own label, radio Active for m 0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:55.400 c A. And he was a big manager of the 0:29:55.440 --> 0:29:59.920 Talking Heads and exactly, but he was in New York. 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:04.080 How did he find you in London? Oh? God? We 0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:07.640 had opened Obama's McKenzie had opened for for Debbie Harry's 0:30:07.760 --> 0:30:11.719 solo tour in the UK during the eighties, and he 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:14.000 had met me there and just liked me. He's like, 0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:16.880 you're funny, You've got charisma, your star. He kept on, 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:19.520 so he was always like, you're a star, so and 0:30:19.520 --> 0:30:22.120 and he just as a result, he then fell in 0:30:22.160 --> 0:30:24.560 love with Obamais ckenzie signed Obamas mackenzie and then when 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:27.040 he dropped Obamas Ckenzie, he was like, I want you 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:29.200 let me know what you're gonna do. Okay, So how 0:30:29.200 --> 0:30:30.800 long did you go home before you say I'm ready 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:33.360 to call Gary again? I can't remember. I do know 0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:37.040 that eventually everyone in the band, having been dropped, realized 0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:40.040 this was our only only solution, which was and and 0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:42.440 there's no thought in your brain, Hey, this wasn't work. 0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:45.080 I'm gonna leave the band behind. No, because I wasn't 0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:47.200 fit for anything. I didn't I didn't have any calls. 0:30:47.360 --> 0:30:49.960 But I mean, you didn't say, okay, this Gary thinks 0:30:50.000 --> 0:30:52.320 I'm a star. I'm gonna make a deal and leave 0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:54.240 the rest of the band members behind. No, that's not 0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:57.520 my style. I'm quite loyal, okay, And I didn't want 0:30:57.520 --> 0:30:59.520 to leave my band in the shitter. Okay, but all 0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:02.600 of a sudden, do you become the singer? I don't know. 0:31:02.720 --> 0:31:05.000 I mean, it's it's so smudgy now and trying to 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:08.360 remember our hazy memories. But I think just the whole 0:31:08.360 --> 0:31:10.960 band were like, let's put Shirley and lead vocals and 0:31:11.000 --> 0:31:14.520 we'll recalibrate and we'll survive as a different entity. And 0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:16.480 we all thought in practice we could do that. As 0:31:16.480 --> 0:31:19.280 it turns out, the male members of the band couldn't 0:31:19.320 --> 0:31:21.400 really hack the fact that I became the sort of 0:31:21.520 --> 0:31:24.120 focal point of the band, and and all the business 0:31:24.240 --> 0:31:27.360 started like Gary would drawn all business through me, having 0:31:27.400 --> 0:31:31.280 been burned by good Bram's, Mackenzie and Berlin. He was like, 0:31:31.360 --> 0:31:34.800 you're now in charge, You're responsible. I will only communicate 0:31:34.840 --> 0:31:39.200 with you. So that's kind of how it how it happened. 0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:41.880 And I made a record with Chris Franz and Tina 0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.800 Weymouth of the Talking Heads because they were Gary's clients. 0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:47.360 And okay, a little bit slower you made her. I 0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.000 thought you made a record with the remnants of Goodbye. 0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:53.840 I did, but Chris and Tina were producing Chris now 0:31:53.960 --> 0:31:57.320 lives in my hometown. I hear from an irregular basis, 0:31:57.400 --> 0:32:02.640 And yes, so fear Field, Connecticut. So how how do 0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:05.400 you are you? Were you happy with what transpired when 0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:08.160 those sessions? I was freaked out. But it was such 0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:10.040 an honor for me to work with Christentina. I mean, 0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:12.600 I can't even put that into words. It was so 0:32:12.680 --> 0:32:17.560 extraordinary for me, and I was I was proud of 0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:22.720 what we've accomplished, you know. And uh, at that point 0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:26.080 you were the singer, were you also the writer? Nope? 0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:30.800 And so the two guys from Goodbye also continue to 0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:32.960 write the songs. They continued to write the songs. Like 0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:35.000 I said, it was just a recalibration of good by 0:32:35.080 --> 0:32:37.920 Mr Mackenzie. Just in order to survive, we had me 0:32:38.000 --> 0:32:41.280 do the the take over the vocals, but the writing 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:43.920 partnership remained the same. And the record comes out and 0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:46.640 then one and then we go on tour with Vic 0:32:46.720 --> 0:32:52.480 Chestna and Life Chestnut. That's quite a bill. That's amazing 0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:55.680 bill actually, and I fell in love with Vic and 0:32:55.720 --> 0:32:57.360 he fell in love with me, and we had a 0:32:57.360 --> 0:33:00.400 love fest. But well, Vic chest And it was in 0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:02.880 a wheel chair, he was he was apparently. Yeah, so 0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:04.400 I have to ask that you said we had a 0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:11.400 love fest. Was this a physical love fest? No, just admiration? Yeah, yeah, 0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:15.080 we just got we hit it off, you know, admitted 0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:19.160 suicide very strange. Yeah, okay, So you go on tour 0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:24.240 that that bill. We go on tour, and um, the 0:33:24.280 --> 0:33:27.200 band is sort of falling apart already because the boys 0:33:27.360 --> 0:33:29.920 are just are not happy with the Paris structure at 0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:33.480 this point, which I totally understand. Why should you understand, Well, 0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:36.600 I don't know, but I did, And but I was 0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:38.240 having fun. You know, I was going on to in 0:33:38.280 --> 0:33:40.520 America the first time. I've never been to American shore. 0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:43.400 So to like travel all over America in a van 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:46.000 was one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life. 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:48.600 You know, it's across the desert in a van. Well, 0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:50.840 the funny things. I grew up in the seventies, that 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:53.800 was the dream to drive across country, and now everybody flies. 0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:55.880 People don't even do that, which is sad because it 0:33:55.920 --> 0:33:58.960 really is an extraordinary way to So we did that, 0:33:59.320 --> 0:34:01.600 and then Rule in Stone picked up on us and 0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:04.560 sort of lauded us as like what one to watch 0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:07.080 And that was the final straw for my band. They 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:09.160 were like, we're going home. We can't hack this anymore, 0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:12.480 And I kid you not. That very day I had 0:34:12.480 --> 0:34:16.160 gotten a phone call from my future band saying, would 0:34:16.200 --> 0:34:20.280 you be interested in meeting up with Butch vig Um 0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:23.239 about singing on a possibly singing on one of like 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:25.960 a project that he's working on. Literally the same day 0:34:26.000 --> 0:34:30.279 the bands as were calling it quits. Yes, okay, are 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:33.879 you still friends with the band members of Goodbye Mr Mackenzie? Now? 0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:35.840 I am, yeah, but we have it was it was 0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:40.520 very difficult. It became very complex, and it was difficult 0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:42.680 for Martin and the lead singer in particular, to like, 0:34:42.719 --> 0:34:45.120 I think process what had happened not only to him 0:34:45.120 --> 0:34:47.440 but to me too. But yeah, and now we're friends, 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:49.880 and what do they do? There is still in a 0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:52.960 band that are called the Filthy Tongues. They're actually really 0:34:52.960 --> 0:34:56.120 great and they can make a living being the Filthy Tongues. 0:34:56.239 --> 0:34:59.680 I don't know if they make a living, but there 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:03.800 are song writers. They also worked with Um the Skids. 0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:06.840 They just helped co write that last Skids record, the 0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:10.440 fourth anniversary of The Skids, Um Richard Jobson's band. And 0:35:10.800 --> 0:35:13.399 you know they do okay, and they're they're they're there. 0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:15.480 I'm proud of them but they were resentful for a 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:19.640 long Yeah, just like ten or twenty years worth. Okay, 0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:22.680 So you get this call from Butch Vig and you think, what, Well, 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:24.719 now you already know you're being as a band into you, 0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:27.640 so you're up for anything. Your loyalty has been canned. Yeah. 0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:29.799 I didn't have to question my own loyalty, thank god, 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:32.200 because that would have been very difficult because I've already 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:35.839 met Butoch and the Garbage in London for a quick 0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:39.000 meeting where they had wanted, you know, so convoluted a story. 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:41.680 But I had met them in London a few months 0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:44.360 to going on tour in America, and we had liked 0:35:44.400 --> 0:35:46.440 each other and that and then the day that my 0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:49.080 band quit was the day Duke Errickson called me. I 0:35:49.120 --> 0:35:52.239 was in Astbury Park in a hotel room, crying and 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:54.359 I get the phone call from Duke Karrickson saying, Hey, 0:35:54.360 --> 0:35:57.360 are you interested in coming up for an addition? I 0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:01.040 was like, as a matter of fact, yes I am. Okay, 0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:03.120 But when you meet them in London, is it just 0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:06.319 social or are they checking you out? There? Checking me out? 0:36:06.880 --> 0:36:09.440 And did you know that at that time? Okay? But 0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:11.360 I the way they had approached me was would you 0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:14.000 send one song on Booch BIG's project. I was like, yeah, 0:36:14.160 --> 0:36:16.200 of course I didn't feel that question my loyalty or 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:18.400 anything like that. Okay, so you go for the audition 0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:21.040 and you don't have anything else going on, nothing, so 0:36:21.080 --> 0:36:23.240 you must have been pretty anxious. I was very anxious. 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:25.960 I was so anxious that I completely messed up the addition. 0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:28.640 It was a disaster. But then we all went out 0:36:28.680 --> 0:36:30.560 to drink afterwards, and of course we got on like 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:32.320 a house on fire and we had such a laugh 0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:37.200 that I went home to Scotland having had a disastrous edition, 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:41.080 and something about I guess the way we had all 0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:44.560 gotten along sort of pushed us to have a second edition. 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:48.040 And okay, so did they agreed the your audition sucked 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:50.319 to they did? What was bad about it? Have you 0:36:50.360 --> 0:36:54.239 ever seen shreds? Do you know what I mean by shreds? Okay? Well, 0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:57.400 shreds is a thing that you can go on YouTube 0:36:57.520 --> 0:36:59.759 and like, let's say it's Radiohead singing one of their 0:36:59.760 --> 0:37:02.840 fame of songs. Somebody like you. You watch a video 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:04.840 radio Head singing one of the most famous songs, but 0:37:04.880 --> 0:37:07.239 then they've re recorded a different audio over the top 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:12.520 of it. And it's like that, Well that's what my 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:14.720 audition was like. It was like shreds. So you couldn't 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.520 I wasn't even articulating any words because I was so 0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:22.279 nervous and so embarrassed that it was just awful. How 0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:24.400 long was it between the first and second auditions, I 0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:27.919 don't know, maybe three months, a long time. And during 0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:31.279 that period you got nothing. I got nothing. Okay, so 0:37:31.400 --> 0:37:36.000 you go back in the second audition it is okay, 0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:39.400 Now these are guys you know, butch Vig had a 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:44.680 huge studio career. But did you believe this was an opportunity? 0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:47.840 But did any It ended up becoming an instant success, 0:37:48.360 --> 0:37:52.360 But did you have any idea that's what would happen? No, none, whatsoever. 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:55.080 In fact, I was convinced it was going to burn 0:37:55.600 --> 0:37:58.160 badly because I was like, nobody wants to hear from 0:37:58.160 --> 0:38:01.960 a producer, nobody ever has, So why will this work? 0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:05.319 Especially with me and that's the lead singer. It's going 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:09.719 to be a disaster. I was so wrong. Stare right there. 0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:12.120 We'll be back with more. Shirley Manson of the band 0:38:12.160 --> 0:38:16.799 Garbage right here on the Bob Left Sense podcast. Hi, 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:18.799 this is Bob Left Sense my guest come to the 0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:22.160 tune In studios in Venice, California to have these conversations 0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:23.719 with me. And if you ever want to see what 0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:25.799 they look like or where we take the show, check 0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:29.480 out the photos and videos search at tune In on Twitter, 0:38:29.600 --> 0:38:33.040 Facebook and Instagram. Let's dive right back in with my guest, 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:36.400 Shirley Manson of the band Garbage. So you have the 0:38:36.440 --> 0:38:38.640 audition three months later, how long after that do you 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:41.680 go in the studio? No idea, no idea, No, I'm useless, 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:44.080 I'm a terrible witness. Okay, how about the record comes 0:38:44.120 --> 0:38:49.160 out on Almo in America. Why is that? Well, we'd 0:38:49.320 --> 0:38:53.400 signed to the young management, that to Kato Boots at 0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:55.640 the time. We're very smart and they were young, go 0:38:55.840 --> 0:38:59.960 getting women who had an idea. So the Butcher's manager 0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:02.960 were women, young women, that's certainly you know. And were 0:39:02.960 --> 0:39:07.560 they also managers of Garbage? Yes, okay, that's my default. Okay, 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:10.800 but that's that's certainly out of the ordinary, especially notable 0:39:10.840 --> 0:39:14.600 on today's ME two world. Correct. And then they struck 0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:17.799 two deals, one in the UK for the rest of 0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:20.239 the world and one for North America. And they were 0:39:20.280 --> 0:39:22.960 both independent record labels. And that was what we were 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:25.919 very keen on pursuing because what was the record label 0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:31.680 in the UK? Mushroom Records were Australian based. And so 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:37.200 you're making the the record which takes how long? Oh god, 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:42.560 about eighteen months with a break for Boot to make 0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:47.680 a Soul Asylum record of all things? Is it? It's 0:39:47.760 --> 0:39:52.120 that slow? Because well, I think there was a lot 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:55.680 of feet involved. Booch had a lot to lose, and 0:39:55.760 --> 0:40:01.719 so he was very, very meticulous, and I would say 0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:04.840 all of all of us were fearful of taking the 0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:07.160 wrong step. We knew this was a great opportunity, I think, 0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:10.080 and so just took a ridiculously long time. And when 0:40:10.080 --> 0:40:11.920 the record is and you're living where when that time, 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:17.160 I'm living in a weird hotel, Okay, and the record 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:20.000 is done. Now do you think we have something? This 0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:23.480 is gonna work? Not really, But it's a hit. From 0:40:23.560 --> 0:40:27.319 Los Angeles perspective, it is literally immediately a hit. And 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:29.319 the only other thing I could think like this from 0:40:29.320 --> 0:40:31.200 a couple of years later was Lanti's more a set, 0:40:31.320 --> 0:40:36.919 also immediately a hit. And was that your sensation? Yes? 0:40:36.960 --> 0:40:38.799 And no, I mean we were aware that it was 0:40:38.840 --> 0:40:42.200 taking off in a major way really fast. But there 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:44.719 were always artists that were doing so much better than 0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:47.280 us on our record labels because they were small, really 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:50.880 relied on us to make money for them. We became 0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:52.880 this sort of like little machine that they sent out 0:40:52.880 --> 0:40:55.239 into the world to fund all their other artists who 0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:58.799 weren't selling. And so they were constantly telling us, you know, 0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:01.480 no doubt or selling more records than you, Atlantis more 0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:03.839 set is selling more than you. You know, We's are 0:41:03.920 --> 0:41:07.000 selling more than you. You're losing. It was constantly telling 0:41:07.040 --> 0:41:10.640 us how much we were losing. So as frustrating and 0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:13.640 awful as that process was, I'm actually quite grateful for 0:41:13.719 --> 0:41:17.279 it because it made us really like be humble. We 0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:21.480 were forced to be humble. Okay, but it's the MTV era. 0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:24.440 You're all over television, you have a unique look. You 0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:27.960 probably can't go anywhere without being recognized almost immediately. There 0:41:28.000 --> 0:41:30.399 was a lot of pressure. Okay, but that also made 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:33.719 must you know, after years of relative obscurity, must have 0:41:33.760 --> 0:41:36.080 made you feel very good on the inside. No, it 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:39.880 made me feel rotten on the inside. Why. I don't 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:41.759 know why. I mean, I I didn't have a lot 0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:45.040 of self esteem to begin with, and and having attention 0:41:45.120 --> 0:41:47.400 made me feel really self conscious, and I felt the 0:41:47.400 --> 0:41:49.839 whole time I was being judged and that I was 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:53.840 failing to be a Gwen Stefani or be an Atlantis. 0:41:53.880 --> 0:41:55.840 More set, I was just me, surely, Anne, you know, 0:41:55.920 --> 0:41:59.359 I was just my own, small, little Scottish self. That's 0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:02.400 how I viewed it at the time. I mean that changed, obviously, 0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:04.239 you know, my confidence grew and I got better at 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:06.840 what I did as an artist. But right at the beginning, 0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:13.160 I just felt rotten. And so ultimately you tour and 0:42:13.200 --> 0:42:17.040 there's and garbage continues. So what can you say about 0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:20.719 that experience of the late nineties and early twenty one century. 0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:24.000 I could sit here for hours and hours and hours 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:25.560 and talk about it. I mean, it was extraordinary. It 0:42:25.600 --> 0:42:30.200 was an extraordinary time where alternative music ruled the roost 0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:33.120 and that has never happened before. It's certainly never happened since. 0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:37.399 So I was. I am an alternative music lover. I'm 0:42:37.400 --> 0:42:41.240 not particularly turned on by pop or conformity of any sort. 0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:45.520 Like I love music that's sort of a little off kilter, 0:42:45.840 --> 0:42:48.360 you know, And that's just been my personal taste since 0:42:48.360 --> 0:42:52.200 I was young. And so it was a moment where 0:42:52.480 --> 0:42:57.439 we were enjoying this insane success, global success as where 0:42:57.480 --> 0:43:00.600 a lot of bands that I loved and joid and 0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:02.960 we were a community in some ways. You know, we 0:43:03.040 --> 0:43:06.319 all played these massive summer festivals and we all got 0:43:06.320 --> 0:43:09.200 to know one another. We played winter you know, on 0:43:09.360 --> 0:43:12.759 radio festivals all together, and so there was a lot 0:43:12.800 --> 0:43:17.600 of camaraderie, and so it was a very exciting time 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:22.880 for nonconforming alternative artists. And what were the other artists? 0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:26.200 You became friends with everybody, you know, whether it was Beck, 0:43:26.360 --> 0:43:30.080 whether it was you know, food Fighters, whether it was 0:43:30.160 --> 0:43:32.560 No Doubt, whether it was Fiona Apple. I mean that 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:35.280 the list was, you know, and we we all everyone 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:37.359 was friendly to one another, as Missy Elliott, I mean, 0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:39.520 it was it was really wonderful. So why do you 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:42.560 think that scene was eclipsed by hip hop and pop? 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:47.120 That's a good question. I mean, I know why it 0:43:47.320 --> 0:43:52.399 became eclipsed by pop because I think that I think 0:43:52.440 --> 0:43:54.839 the times became very conservative. I think hip hop really 0:43:54.840 --> 0:43:57.200 exploded because it was a new it was still new. 0:43:57.239 --> 0:43:58.880 I mean, I've been around for twenty years, but it 0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:02.360 really was one of the the most courageous and creative 0:44:02.400 --> 0:44:06.520 in terms of modern production. You know, they really they 0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:09.920 sort of messed around with sounds and beats that we 0:44:09.960 --> 0:44:12.920 hadn't heard before, and it was the sound of the street, 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:15.799 was the sound of rebellion. So hip hop, I think 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:22.480 became the most authentic version of rebellion and questioning of 0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:29.880 authority and and and our society. Anyway, But is there 0:44:29.920 --> 0:44:33.160 any hope for so called alternative music? There's always hope, 0:44:33.440 --> 0:44:35.640 of course. Okay, Well they're always hope. It's blind, you know, 0:44:35.719 --> 0:44:38.759 blind optimism. Now I don't think that is blind optimism, 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:41.440 and I think it's actually sensible and pragmatic because I 0:44:41.480 --> 0:44:45.520 think history continues to repeat itself. Well, the irony is 0:44:45.560 --> 0:44:48.520 in the century really hasn't If you go back prior 0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:51.920 to the napstre era, meaning last century, every two or 0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:55.040 three years there was a whole new sound. Okay, we 0:44:55.080 --> 0:44:57.839 had the hair bands which were clipped by seattle, which 0:44:57.880 --> 0:45:00.879 were eclipped by eclips by hip pop. It was then 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:03.400 then it pop came after that. Now for the twenty 0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:05.960 one century, we've had pop up pop and hip hop. 0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:07.759 Hip hop happens to be dominant now, but it's been 0:45:07.800 --> 0:45:12.279 almost twenty years. No, it's true, But I mean, one 0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:15.520 could say though that hip hop has been the dominant 0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:20.840 sound of the last twenty years, and it's really progressive 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:26.240 and really exciting, and really I do. I mean it's not. Again, 0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:30.279 it's not my preferred choice. But there's always artists that 0:45:30.320 --> 0:45:33.359 come along that catch my ear and excite me. Whether 0:45:33.400 --> 0:45:35.879 it's Drake, whether it's Logic or whether you know, there's 0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:41.680 always someone um that I'm excited by. Okay, But you're 0:45:41.719 --> 0:45:44.759 making a point about, you know, why alternative music has 0:45:44.760 --> 0:45:47.200 been eclipsed by hip hop and what the future of 0:45:47.239 --> 0:45:50.680 alternative music might be. I don't know. I mean, if 0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:52.640 I had the answer to that, I would be you know, 0:45:53.239 --> 0:45:56.319 I would be investing in it. Well, you are investing here, 0:45:56.320 --> 0:45:59.560 you're still making it. I'm invested in it. Yeah, that's true. 0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:01.719 I mean it's very different it used to be. And 0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:05.719 under the old paradigm, you made the record, okay, then 0:46:05.760 --> 0:46:09.400 your label went to video sources, MTV, whatever, went to radio. 0:46:09.719 --> 0:46:12.440 They may or may not play it. They may or 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:15.560 may not be a reaction. But you were either on 0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:17.719 the train or you're off the train. You said, hey, 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:21.160 this worked or it doesn't work. Today, a band of 0:46:21.239 --> 0:46:24.640 the Statue of Garbage could put out a record, and 0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:27.720 it can have almost zero cultural impact other than amongst 0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:31.160 its fans. What is that like being the maker of 0:46:31.200 --> 0:46:35.960 that music? You know, it's interesting because obviously as an 0:46:36.040 --> 0:46:39.880 artist who you know, I've had to wrestle with that. 0:46:39.880 --> 0:46:44.000 That's not an easy pill to swallow. It's difficult and upsetting. 0:46:44.040 --> 0:46:47.319 I'd be a liar if I said otherwise. But I've 0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:51.840 also managed to process, and I'm very grateful for this, 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:54.960 as has my bands. By the way, is get back 0:46:54.960 --> 0:46:57.520 into what I call a beginner's headspace, a sort of 0:47:00.200 --> 0:47:03.480 a place where you don't expect anything, And we've all 0:47:03.520 --> 0:47:06.600 been able to somehow get back to that space where 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:10.600 we were before any of the success. So we now 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:14.239 make music solely because we love each other. We have 0:47:14.320 --> 0:47:18.319 a good creative working relationship. We enjoy making music and 0:47:18.360 --> 0:47:22.120 we enjoy touring it, and our ambitions are not much 0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:24.879 bigger than that. And as a result, we've been able 0:47:24.920 --> 0:47:28.160 to still find joy in the process of doing what 0:47:28.200 --> 0:47:31.719 we do. And we've been very lucky in that we've 0:47:31.719 --> 0:47:34.800 built upon that slowly and we have a very loyal 0:47:34.840 --> 0:47:41.839 fan base. And yeah, we're still able to be in 0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:44.440 the music scene. You know, Okay, but there's a lot 0:47:45.000 --> 0:47:47.920 these especially now more than ever. It's a business, and 0:47:47.960 --> 0:47:50.520 when you go on the road, you have to feed 0:47:50.520 --> 0:47:53.239 everybody in the crew. Everybody in the band has to 0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:54.799 be in the black at the end of the day. 0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:57.920 There's an agent, there's a manager, so there's a pressure 0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:01.560 to sell as many tickets as part possible. You must 0:48:01.600 --> 0:48:04.600 feel that pressure, right, So then it becomes an issue. 0:48:04.640 --> 0:48:07.080 You go out, you say, well, they want to hear 0:48:07.120 --> 0:48:09.960 the hits. How much new music do you play. It's 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:11.960 one thing to be in the studio saying, hey, we're 0:48:11.960 --> 0:48:14.920 gonna do whatever we want to do. What pressure do 0:48:14.960 --> 0:48:16.799 you feel on stage and how do you deal with that? 0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:20.160 I don't feel any pressure on stage at all. I 0:48:20.200 --> 0:48:27.520 feel comfortable enough to to own our expression when we're 0:48:27.520 --> 0:48:30.400 on stage, and if people don't like that, then so 0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:32.680 be it. That's not for me to say, but I 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:35.600 feel in general at this point, anyone who's coming to 0:48:35.640 --> 0:48:38.359 a garbage shoe is willing to go on that ride 0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:40.200 with us. They're not going to sit there and go, well, 0:48:40.239 --> 0:48:42.680 you didn't play stupid girl, you didn't play only happy 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:46.359 when it rains. Everybody seems to be content to come 0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:48.960 with us in whatever. So if you have new music 0:48:49.000 --> 0:48:50.160 and you go on the road. How much of the 0:48:50.160 --> 0:48:54.480 new album will you play the last record that we released, 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:57.920 We played half of it, Okay, And you're on stage 0:48:58.239 --> 0:49:00.799 and you're watching Do you visit of lea see people 0:49:00.800 --> 0:49:02.719 get up and go to the bathroom? Of course, I 0:49:02.760 --> 0:49:04.839 mean we were on We were on tour last year 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:07.520 and we it was summertime. You know, you're playing these 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:09.880 summer festivals. And I looked out and there was a 0:49:09.960 --> 0:49:13.879 man on a sun lounges. You're fast asleep throughout our 0:49:14.080 --> 0:49:17.520 entire set. So what you're on stage, what goes through 0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:19.479 your mind or through your heart? Well, when I was younger, 0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:21.720 that would have devastated me. Now I find it funny, 0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:24.000 and I realized, I'm like, I am here to do 0:49:24.040 --> 0:49:27.120 a job and connect with someone. It doesn't have to 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:30.120 be everyone. You know, I'm not failing if I don't 0:49:30.160 --> 0:49:32.759 touch every heart in this audience. But my job is 0:49:32.840 --> 0:49:36.640 to get out there and tell my truth and hope 0:49:36.680 --> 0:49:39.480 that somehow I connect with one or more people. And 0:49:39.520 --> 0:49:42.560 that's all I think about. I don't worry about being famous, 0:49:42.719 --> 0:49:45.439 I don't worry about being important. I don't worry about 0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:47.480 being a start. I really do not give a ship, 0:49:47.680 --> 0:49:50.640 I'd want to be a working musician because that's what 0:49:50.760 --> 0:49:54.360 I value. I value working musicians more than anything in 0:49:54.400 --> 0:49:58.800 the world. That's my jam. Two Things one two thousand 0:49:58.920 --> 0:50:02.239 five definitely and Brian Adams went on a tour where 0:50:02.239 --> 0:50:05.160 they played ballparks and they would alternate headlining, and I 0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:07.080 happen to see them in a there were minor league 0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:10.359 ballparks in Minnesota, and at that time, the opening act 0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:12.640 on that date was Brian Adams. He had had a 0:50:12.680 --> 0:50:15.000 set list and he's playing, but also he could bring 0:50:15.080 --> 0:50:17.319 children in for free whatever, and he was having this 0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:20.880 experience of the audience not being with him, and he literally, 0:50:20.880 --> 0:50:23.200 I was standing on stage literally, you know, looked at 0:50:23.200 --> 0:50:25.560 the band, literally took out the set list and ripped 0:50:25.560 --> 0:50:30.360 it in half and slowly brought the audience into the 0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:32.320 palm of this hand and worked them into a frenzy. 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:34.919 It was a magical thing, you know, something that only 0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:38.160 someone was very experienced doing it. Do you ever feel 0:50:38.239 --> 0:50:40.799 challenged in that way that, Okay, I'm gonna win him 0:50:40.840 --> 0:50:45.080 over all the time I go out feeling like it's 0:50:45.120 --> 0:50:48.840 like we are coming from a place of lack. We 0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:53.320 are going to try and change in mind. I always 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:57.680 feel like that. Yeah, okay, so now how often does 0:50:57.680 --> 0:51:02.600 garbage works? It's that's doesn't even apply to us because 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:05.359 we have such a bizarre set up. Well, the reason 0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:07.200 I'm asking what do you do with the rest of 0:51:07.200 --> 0:51:09.439 your time? That's a good question. I have absolutely no idea. 0:51:09.480 --> 0:51:13.359 I set a home feeling like of work tiger. Okay, 0:51:13.400 --> 0:51:15.319 you're an out of work tiger. Are you the type 0:51:15.360 --> 0:51:18.160 pacing the cage saying, hey, I want my band members 0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:21.360 to record or go on the road or okay, but 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:25.800 how about independent things that are fulfilling, whether it be music, 0:51:25.880 --> 0:51:28.840 aren't anything? Everything is fulfilling to me. At this point, 0:51:28.960 --> 0:51:30.880 I feel it's up to me to find joy in 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:32.719 my life. It's not nobody else is going to come 0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:34.839 and serve it to me. You know. But you're painting 0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:38.239 a picture of you're very happy when you're working, okay, 0:51:38.320 --> 0:51:41.040 and when you're not working, you're frustrated. You would like 0:51:41.080 --> 0:51:43.239 to be working with the band. I am frustrated, but 0:51:43.280 --> 0:51:45.520 I think life isn't that simple, you know. Human beings 0:51:45.560 --> 0:51:47.960 are complex. So yeah, I can be frustrated and also 0:51:48.000 --> 0:51:50.000 go out to an art gality and see something that 0:51:50.040 --> 0:51:52.640 will blow my mind and make me feel excited, and 0:51:53.239 --> 0:51:55.600 I have like all these ideas and it excites me 0:51:55.640 --> 0:51:58.600 and I feel joyful, and and then I'll come home 0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:01.040 and fall into a slump again. I mean, I'm cute, 0:52:01.400 --> 0:52:04.160 like most human beings are. Okay, but okay, this is 0:52:04.160 --> 0:52:06.000 another thing I've noticed, because you know, when I'm right, 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:07.919 I'm writing in the house, and a lot of times 0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:09.719 I'll be in a bad mood and you literally walk 0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:11.640 out the front door in your mood changes. Yes, it's 0:52:11.680 --> 0:52:14.799 just astounding. You just have to frost the threshold. But 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:18.000 assuming it's just you're not on the road. An average day, 0:52:18.400 --> 0:52:22.080 you wake up when seven is Oh, so you're living 0:52:22.120 --> 0:52:25.200 regular human being that me. I'm up late. I'm I'm 0:52:25.320 --> 0:52:28.080 more creative at night. I have a dog and the 0:52:28.120 --> 0:52:29.680 dog has to get out. I'm not a dog person. 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:32.319 I'm in service to my dog and the dog. You 0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:34.960 have to get up at seven, seventh thirty, you know, 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:37.480 And are you the type person who will go out 0:52:37.520 --> 0:52:39.840 to breakfast with friends or you are not going to 0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:42.359 breakfast with friends? Okay, but do you do it? Yes? 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:46.000 Of course, So you're not You're You're a people person. 0:52:46.040 --> 0:52:48.640 You're not a loner. I am very much a people person. 0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:51.879 I love people and I'm fascinated by them, but I'm 0:52:51.920 --> 0:52:54.719 also a missanthrope. So again, here you've got this duality 0:52:54.800 --> 0:52:57.640 that exists in most human beings, like I am really 0:52:57.800 --> 0:53:02.279 fascinated and genuinely interested in anyone I meet, and I'm 0:53:02.320 --> 0:53:06.040 open to engaging with them. Okay, you can meet them once. 0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:09.080 Do you want to see them again? It depends how 0:53:09.160 --> 0:53:12.320 great they are, right exactly, or do you find I 0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:14.160 have no interest in seeing them. There are a lot 0:53:14.200 --> 0:53:16.600 of people I find. You know, everybody's got a fascinating story. 0:53:16.680 --> 0:53:18.680 You can hear it once, but there are other people. 0:53:18.760 --> 0:53:20.720 Every time you hang with them, they tell the same story. 0:53:21.080 --> 0:53:22.759 And it's like, you know, I have no I have. 0:53:22.840 --> 0:53:24.360 I bump him, and it's one thing. But I'm not 0:53:24.400 --> 0:53:26.880 gonna make plans with them. No, of course not. I 0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:29.000 mean that's how you select the people in your life. No, 0:53:29.080 --> 0:53:32.040 but it also makes me feel I mean, uh, I 0:53:32.120 --> 0:53:34.600 don't view myself as you know, the average person. I 0:53:34.600 --> 0:53:36.359 don't know what you can even say this. Maybe it's 0:53:36.600 --> 0:53:38.640 out a date. Average person is getting up in the 0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:41.719 morning and going to a job. They're seeing people all 0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:44.399 the time at the job. It is wearing them out 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:47.719 and they come home and they want to relax. They 0:53:47.880 --> 0:53:49.920 maybe have a drink, have a smoke, watch TV, and 0:53:49.960 --> 0:53:52.040 get up and do it again. And on the weekends 0:53:52.080 --> 0:53:53.640 they'll go out to dinner, We'll go out to a show. 0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:57.320 They'll cut loose. Okay, where this someone once made a 0:53:57.360 --> 0:53:59.520 great line? You know, the people who party hardest on 0:53:59.560 --> 0:54:03.799 these entrance are not the music business people because these 0:54:03.840 --> 0:54:05.880 other people it's one time of years. You got a Vegas. 0:54:05.920 --> 0:54:07.759 These people out of control. We're in the music you 0:54:07.760 --> 0:54:10.320 can you can party every night, So why shouldn't be 0:54:10.360 --> 0:54:13.880 out of control tonight? So my question is are you 0:54:14.400 --> 0:54:16.040 since you don't have when you're not on the road, 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:20.680 you're not recording? Uh are you in the house sort 0:54:20.719 --> 0:54:24.080 of bouncing off the walls? So how are you occupying 0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:27.640 your time? That's a good question. I mean, I walk 0:54:27.800 --> 0:54:30.880 my dog alt I go to galleries, I read a lot, 0:54:31.040 --> 0:54:34.520 I love going to movies, I love dinner with friends. 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:36.680 I mean there's a million and one thing. So in 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:39.840 the average, in the average week, how many times in 0:54:39.920 --> 0:54:41.640 a week would you go to breakfast with friends, go 0:54:41.680 --> 0:54:46.400 to dinner with friends? It's no idea. I'm trying, you know, 0:54:46.680 --> 0:54:49.720 trying to say it. You know, you sound very social, 0:54:50.120 --> 0:54:52.120 So therefore, when I hear that you about your frustration, 0:54:52.120 --> 0:54:54.680 I'm just trying to figure it out, you know. And 0:54:54.760 --> 0:54:56.480 you say you're a missing thrope? Are you the type 0:54:56.520 --> 0:54:58.320 of person who really you know, you go when you 0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:01.200 have a good time. But are you mostly alone or 0:55:01.239 --> 0:55:04.320 you're mostly hanging? I don't even know how to answer 0:55:04.360 --> 0:55:06.880 this question. This is amazing. I have absolutely no idea. 0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:09.839 This is so peculiar to me that I'm not sure 0:55:10.280 --> 0:55:12.400 to be honest. I mean, I'm both shy and I'm 0:55:12.440 --> 0:55:15.759 both gregarious. I both love people and I hate them. 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:18.640 If I had my brothers, I'd spend my whole life 0:55:18.680 --> 0:55:22.520 with my dog. Okay. So if you're home alone, I'm 0:55:23.080 --> 0:55:26.120 you're a happy pig and ship. Okay. And you're married 0:55:26.200 --> 0:55:28.200 at this point, they've been married for eight years. What 0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:30.680 did your husband do for a living? He's a music producer, 0:55:31.280 --> 0:55:34.120 music producer. We could look this up online, so what 0:55:34.360 --> 0:55:38.439 what what does he actually do? Well? He also works 0:55:38.480 --> 0:55:41.640 with my bands, he's like our engineer, right, and he 0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:46.000 also produces bands on his own. So if he's producing 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:47.719 bands on his own, is he tend to be in 0:55:47.880 --> 0:55:50.440 town with you? In Los Angeles or out of town. 0:55:52.880 --> 0:55:54.239 And if you go on the road, does he go 0:55:54.360 --> 0:55:56.560 with you on the road? Yes, and he does the 0:55:56.960 --> 0:56:00.200 sound on the road. So you're together. We're together. And 0:56:00.360 --> 0:56:03.279 how did you meet him? We hired him? You hired him? 0:56:03.320 --> 0:56:07.640 And how he was our guitar? Roadif how old is 0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:09.919 he relative to you? He's a year younger than me? Okay, 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:12.239 so basically the same age. How long did it became 0:56:12.280 --> 0:56:14.520 a romance? Oh? Years and years and year, years and 0:56:14.640 --> 0:56:16.840 years and years. He loved me from the day that 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:18.640 he met me, he said, In fact, he said that 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:20.680 he loved me before he met me because he'd heard 0:56:20.719 --> 0:56:23.120 me sing. And he used to listen to a garbage 0:56:23.160 --> 0:56:25.239 c D every night to go to sleep. Milk would 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:27.239 send him to sleep every night. This was before we met. 0:56:27.560 --> 0:56:29.520 Then we met, and I couldn't have been less interested 0:56:29.560 --> 0:56:32.600 in him. And but then over the years he became 0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:34.640 a really good friend. And then I started to notice 0:56:34.719 --> 0:56:38.479 that when he wasn't around, I didn't feel good. Really Yeah, 0:56:39.120 --> 0:56:40.839 but he was, you know, carrying a torch this whole 0:56:41.200 --> 0:56:43.960 and was devoted to me. Okay, So what what was 0:56:44.000 --> 0:56:46.319 the transition? What made it happen? I mean, I tell 0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:47.960 this story all the time, and people don't believe me, 0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:50.200 But this is how superficial and cheap I am. So 0:56:50.360 --> 0:56:53.120 my makeup artist at the time, unbeknownst to me, had 0:56:53.120 --> 0:56:55.760 shaved his head because he had terrible hair, like thinning, 0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:58.560 long rocker hair, and she shaved it off so he 0:56:58.640 --> 0:57:01.400 had a little buzz cut. And I came down. We 0:57:01.480 --> 0:57:04.919 were supporting I think Alanis Morisset, and we came down 0:57:05.000 --> 0:57:07.440 in a bus down the ramp towards the stadium, and 0:57:07.480 --> 0:57:09.600 there was a super hot guy standing by the side 0:57:09.640 --> 0:57:11.640 of the bus and I was like, he's hot. Oh ship, 0:57:11.760 --> 0:57:16.560 that's Billy Bush there and began the romance. Okay, and 0:57:16.640 --> 0:57:19.000 I actually married how long eight years? How long has 0:57:19.120 --> 0:57:26.160 the romance going on? M sixteen years? Maybe long time? Yeah? 0:57:26.440 --> 0:57:29.880 And now, uh, you were married once before I was. 0:57:30.160 --> 0:57:34.000 And what was that about. Well, it was about a 0:57:34.160 --> 0:57:37.000 gorgeous person who I still miss and love very much, 0:57:37.280 --> 0:57:43.960 but we were pulled apart by exchaneous circumstances. I started 0:57:43.960 --> 0:57:47.280 touring the world, and also I think I had rushed 0:57:47.320 --> 0:57:50.520 to his side because he was a paternal figure and 0:57:50.640 --> 0:57:55.440 I had been in a very destructive, sexually dangerous, abusive 0:57:56.240 --> 0:58:02.400 relationship until I met my first husband, so we kind 0:58:02.400 --> 0:58:04.880 of rescued you, Yes, he rescued And how did that end? 0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:09.960 It just ended it sadly in me becoming successful and 0:58:10.120 --> 0:58:12.000 going on tour and we've never seen each other, and 0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:16.479 then the relationship just kind of deteriorated. And am I great, 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:19.280 you don't have any children? Right? Oh? God? No? Okay, 0:58:19.320 --> 0:58:23.360 so that's a conscious thought. Yes, you always knew that 0:58:23.440 --> 0:58:26.479 you were never gonna have children. No. I never knew 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:29.680 that I wouldn't have children, But I never ached for them. 0:58:29.720 --> 0:58:31.920 Like women talk a lot about aching in their wombs, 0:58:32.560 --> 0:58:34.120 and I would always be like, kind of like a 0:58:34.240 --> 0:58:36.720 dude looking at them blankly, like what does that even mean? 0:58:36.800 --> 0:58:38.440 I don't even know where that is. I had no 0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:41.720 aching in my womb and no longing for a child. Really, 0:58:42.000 --> 0:58:45.200 how about your husband? None either? Well I felt the 0:58:45.240 --> 0:58:47.560 same way. I felt that I was living my own 0:58:47.680 --> 0:58:50.400 life and I didn't want to subjugate myself. But once 0:58:50.440 --> 0:58:53.960 I hit forty, I realized life was meaningless. And I 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:57.160 saw my sisters with their kids whatever, and I understood 0:58:57.200 --> 0:59:00.440 it at that point in time. But it's very much 0:59:00.440 --> 0:59:03.120 a different life when you don't have kids. I'm not 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:05.560 complaining but it's different. People say, oh, I'm turned onto 0:59:05.640 --> 0:59:07.400 this and that by kids. I'm not turned on. I mean, 0:59:07.840 --> 0:59:10.720 you know, it doesn't happen to me. No, But I 0:59:10.800 --> 0:59:15.120 also don't believe one should live vicariously through your kids. 0:59:15.320 --> 0:59:17.600 I don't mean, like I couldn't agree more trying to say, 0:59:17.720 --> 0:59:21.080 especially when it comes to musical trends. They'll be in 0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:22.440 the car and the kid will say, hey, put this 0:59:22.520 --> 0:59:25.080 on the radio here something you would normally not listen to. 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:28.080 My Yeah, I mean, there's billions of children in my life, thankfully, 0:59:28.160 --> 0:59:30.000 so it's not like I'm out of contact with any 0:59:30.080 --> 0:59:33.440 kids or any new music or whatever. But for me personally, 0:59:33.800 --> 0:59:36.600 I think my mother was so devoted to me as 0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:38.800 a mom, like she was an orphan like my mom 0:59:38.880 --> 0:59:41.280 was had a crazy story. She was like an orphan 0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:44.760 child of a governess and a butler in a stately 0:59:44.800 --> 0:59:48.919 home in Scotland, and the idea of her the mom 0:59:49.040 --> 0:59:51.440 having a child out of wedlock would have lost she 0:59:51.480 --> 0:59:54.160 would have lost her job and been you know, castigated. 0:59:54.720 --> 0:59:58.320 So they took the baby in a basket literally and 0:59:58.400 --> 1:00:02.080 dropped her off in an phonage and she was reared 1:00:02.160 --> 1:00:07.600 in the in the institution of you know, or orphanages. 1:00:07.840 --> 1:00:12.160 Until she was five years old. Family was really important 1:00:12.200 --> 1:00:16.120 to her and she dedicated herself slavishly. One would say 1:00:16.200 --> 1:00:19.120 to her children, and I think I just grew up thinking, 1:00:19.360 --> 1:00:22.280 no way am I doing that. That is not I'm 1:00:22.320 --> 1:00:25.640 not doing that. We're going to pause for a moment. 1:00:25.760 --> 1:00:29.320 We joined this conversation with truly mamson of the band Garbage. 1:00:33.000 --> 1:00:35.200 This is Bob left Sets. I love talking to people 1:00:35.280 --> 1:00:37.520 getting their stories, much like I do on this podcast. 1:00:37.560 --> 1:00:39.280 For tune in, I'll be talking to some of the 1:00:39.360 --> 1:00:41.680 most important people in the music and tech industries that 1:00:41.840 --> 1:00:44.280 my Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara the last week 1:00:44.360 --> 1:00:46.600 in of April. I'd love to have you joined the event. 1:00:46.680 --> 1:00:48.320 It's going to be a great way to connect in 1:00:48.520 --> 1:00:51.720 person with these high profile individuals learned how they made 1:00:51.760 --> 1:00:54.400 it in the future direction of their industries. Go to 1:00:54.560 --> 1:00:57.880 Music Media Summit dot com for tickets and more information. 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:00.960 Let's continue the converse nation with the lead singer of 1:01:01.000 --> 1:01:04.920 the band Garbage, Shirley Manson. So for the last six 1:01:05.040 --> 1:01:08.720 months we've been living through this me too moment. First 1:01:08.840 --> 1:01:11.880 question would be, you know we talked about with your 1:01:11.920 --> 1:01:15.160 first band, but have you experienced any of this sexism 1:01:15.280 --> 1:01:18.400 or sexual harassment. Yeah, of course, every woman that you 1:01:18.520 --> 1:01:22.240 talk to will, unless she's incredibly privileged, you'll have a story. Now, 1:01:22.400 --> 1:01:25.520 on some level, you're very dynamic and very quick, but 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:29.000 on some level, one level, some level, I'm gonna get 1:01:29.000 --> 1:01:31.880 to the other level. So on some level you're very 1:01:32.040 --> 1:01:36.360 dynamic and you're quick, okay, but you also tell stories 1:01:36.640 --> 1:01:40.160 of being shy and subservient. So where does this leave 1:01:40.240 --> 1:01:44.560 you in these situations? Well, that's a really good question. 1:01:44.640 --> 1:01:47.600 I mean, it's peculiar. I don't think anyone who hasn't 1:01:47.840 --> 1:01:53.080 been physically touched unwanted in an unwanted fashion really can 1:01:53.240 --> 1:01:57.440 understand why it's difficult sometimes to use your voice in 1:01:57.520 --> 1:02:03.200 that situation. Um I I consider myself a very dominant, aggressive, 1:02:04.960 --> 1:02:09.400 articulate person, and I've had my body touched and have 1:02:09.640 --> 1:02:14.720 frozen as recently as last year. Uh, when you were 1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:18.200 to the degree you're comfortable. What happened last year? I 1:02:18.400 --> 1:02:22.400 was at a radio festival and we were meeting competition 1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:25.880 winners and we had there was a long line of 1:02:25.920 --> 1:02:28.200 people that we were just standing in front of a 1:02:28.240 --> 1:02:32.240 backdrop and having our photographs taken, and some dude moves in, 1:02:32.840 --> 1:02:35.600 stands beside me, puts his hand on my breast. He's 1:02:35.640 --> 1:02:36.960 got his arm around me, and then puts his hand 1:02:37.000 --> 1:02:39.560 on my breast and I think, oh wow, he's he's 1:02:39.600 --> 1:02:42.160 so nervous and uncomfortable his hand on my breast. This 1:02:42.320 --> 1:02:45.640 is embarrassing, that's all right. And I tried to like shift, 1:02:45.720 --> 1:02:47.800 and he just kept on grabbing me. And then eventually 1:02:47.840 --> 1:02:50.120 I put my own hand on his hand and pushed 1:02:50.240 --> 1:02:52.800 his hand to try and get him off my breast, 1:02:52.840 --> 1:02:55.520 and he would not let go, And eventually I managed 1:02:55.520 --> 1:02:57.480 to push his hand down to my waist and we 1:02:57.600 --> 1:03:00.400 took the photograph and I was frozen like deer in 1:03:00.440 --> 1:03:04.640 the headlights, and he wandered off and I couldn't even 1:03:04.960 --> 1:03:07.400 look where he went, what direction he had gone, and 1:03:07.480 --> 1:03:09.520 I was just so my mind was so full of 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:12.200 like wow, that dude just grab my tip in front 1:03:12.240 --> 1:03:15.280 of everybody. Now I'm not saying that's comparable to what 1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:17.560 a lot of women have experienced or some men, by 1:03:17.600 --> 1:03:20.480 the way, but it was unpleasant and I found it 1:03:20.560 --> 1:03:22.880 really upsetting. And I was angry at myself for not 1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:25.320 going dude and shouting, you know, calling him out, like 1:03:25.400 --> 1:03:28.080 what are you doing? But I didn't, and so it 1:03:28.160 --> 1:03:31.520 gave me some insight into the process that occurs for 1:03:31.680 --> 1:03:34.840 so many women in situations where they just freeze and 1:03:35.120 --> 1:03:38.200 they can't push back, they can't shout, they can't fight back, 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:42.360 they can't say anything. It's mad. So let's just say, 1:03:42.360 --> 1:03:44.440 in the same thing would have happened this summer, do 1:03:44.520 --> 1:03:47.080 you think you would freeze again? I don't know, you know, 1:03:47.120 --> 1:03:50.920 I don't know. That's something I don't think men understand. 1:03:51.000 --> 1:03:54.280 You See, It's like when you're a woman your entire life, 1:03:54.960 --> 1:03:57.760 when you walk out the house, you're aware that you 1:03:57.880 --> 1:04:00.880 could be hurt in some way and then never have 1:04:01.040 --> 1:04:04.600 that experience, not really, unless that're warfare. You know, generally speaking, 1:04:04.640 --> 1:04:06.960 a man doesn't have to think about his physical safety. 1:04:07.360 --> 1:04:10.480 Women think about all the time, and it's something that 1:04:10.960 --> 1:04:14.000 men go bless them, just cannot quite connect to the 1:04:14.160 --> 1:04:17.200 idea of Like, you know, you're walking down the street, 1:04:17.240 --> 1:04:21.240 you're nervous. Is some somebody whistles out your says something 1:04:21.400 --> 1:04:24.160 sexual to you. It's intimidating, it's frightening because you don't 1:04:24.200 --> 1:04:27.600 know where it can lead. You know, I was married 1:04:27.680 --> 1:04:29.600 to someone who did not have them as a guy. 1:04:30.160 --> 1:04:32.960 We've all been in places. We've hit on somebody that's 1:04:33.000 --> 1:04:34.640 kind a weird kind of tation. We've even talked to 1:04:34.720 --> 1:04:39.080 a woman okay, and they very specifically send a signal 1:04:39.200 --> 1:04:41.720 it's a brush off. I don't want to talk to you, okay, 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:46.919 And if you're a man, unfortunately, if someone doesn't give 1:04:47.000 --> 1:04:49.600 that signal, a lot of people but then see that 1:04:49.680 --> 1:04:54.560 as a green light unfortunately. So you fear as a woman, 1:04:54.720 --> 1:04:57.880 you feel you might get hurt to what degree? What 1:04:58.080 --> 1:05:04.680 behaviors doing you employ to make sure you don't get hurt? Well, 1:05:04.760 --> 1:05:07.880 I mean you're careful, you know. I've always been very careful. 1:05:07.960 --> 1:05:11.080 I don't walk down dark streets alone at night if 1:05:11.120 --> 1:05:13.360 I can possibly help it. If I am down in 1:05:13.560 --> 1:05:15.560 dark street at night by myself, I'm walking down the 1:05:15.600 --> 1:05:18.480 middle of the middle of the road because it was 1:05:18.480 --> 1:05:20.520 going to take a further distance to drag me from 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:22.880 one side to the other. I mean silly things like that, 1:05:23.120 --> 1:05:25.880 you know. Um, I make it very clear, and I'm 1:05:25.960 --> 1:05:28.959 very lucky in that I am not scared to say, dude, 1:05:29.120 --> 1:05:32.120 I'm not interested, you know, please go go back and 1:05:32.200 --> 1:05:34.880 join your friends or you know. I'm pretty clear, but not, 1:05:35.240 --> 1:05:37.200 But not all women are like that, And a lot 1:05:37.240 --> 1:05:40.440 of women have been conditioned to please men and up 1:05:40.560 --> 1:05:44.560 ease men, and they don't. They don't want to upset 1:05:44.680 --> 1:05:49.560 them or hurt their egos or or incite them, you know, 1:05:49.640 --> 1:05:52.120 to be aggressive. So there's a whole thing at play. 1:05:52.160 --> 1:05:54.600 I mean, I know we've all talked about this for 1:05:56.000 --> 1:05:59.000 some months now, and my only feeling about it all 1:05:59.120 --> 1:06:02.480 is we need to educate our children, our boys, and 1:06:02.560 --> 1:06:05.360 our girls. And what would that look like, Well, you know, 1:06:05.440 --> 1:06:08.280 it's it's for men. I think it's really confusing. You know, 1:06:08.480 --> 1:06:12.360 there's a lot there's there's a lot of of depicting 1:06:13.160 --> 1:06:18.840 men in movies, in TV, in literature, you know, where 1:06:19.200 --> 1:06:24.080 the pursuit is romanticized, where they're encouraged to push even 1:06:24.120 --> 1:06:26.400 when a woman says no, that you know that they 1:06:26.520 --> 1:06:28.640 learned that maybe if they push a little harder, they'll 1:06:28.680 --> 1:06:31.240 finally get what they want. She'll relent, you know. Blah 1:06:31.320 --> 1:06:36.520 blah blah. There's all this misscons like misguiding stuff out 1:06:36.560 --> 1:06:38.760 there about what it means to be a dude. And 1:06:39.320 --> 1:06:41.760 I just think we need to to change a little 1:06:41.960 --> 1:06:43.920 just I just think a few tweaks and the way 1:06:44.000 --> 1:06:46.960 we raise our children will will help men and women 1:06:47.720 --> 1:06:50.680 co exist a little more comfortably with those tweaks look like. 1:06:51.920 --> 1:06:56.160 I think the great thing that I welcome the most 1:06:56.480 --> 1:06:59.440 right now is the breakdown of binary gender. I think 1:06:59.560 --> 1:07:02.880 that is a great start right there, where men are 1:07:02.960 --> 1:07:10.439 not expected to be you know, the the the one 1:07:10.640 --> 1:07:15.120 who the alpha, yeah, or they're not expected to be 1:07:15.280 --> 1:07:18.680 the predator and or the chaser or the one who 1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:20.480 always asked a woman out in a day where it 1:07:20.520 --> 1:07:23.320 becomes a little more eglitarian where men and women are. 1:07:24.120 --> 1:07:25.080 You know, a lot of the time when I was 1:07:25.120 --> 1:07:27.720 growing up in the seventies, women were just expected to wait, 1:07:28.240 --> 1:07:32.920 literally wait until a man asked her to dance, you know. 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:35.120 So it all starts off at primary school for us, 1:07:35.200 --> 1:07:37.800 you know, like when you're five, you're you're lined up 1:07:37.840 --> 1:07:40.160 against the wall. This was in the seventies in Scotland, 1:07:40.200 --> 1:07:42.040 were all the women were lined up against the wall 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:44.680 and then the men or the boys were sent now, 1:07:44.760 --> 1:07:46.960 go choose your partner, and the man would the boy 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:52.480 would choose whoever they wanted to dance with. And that's 1:07:52.520 --> 1:07:54.840 really crazy. You know. I'm not healthy and not good 1:07:54.960 --> 1:07:58.960 and it starts right that early, you know. And I 1:07:59.440 --> 1:08:02.200 think boys are praised for being you know, good at 1:08:02.280 --> 1:08:05.680 sports and aggressive and and even violent, you know, and 1:08:05.760 --> 1:08:08.320 women are praised for being pretty and cute and small 1:08:09.120 --> 1:08:11.200 and just a little tweaks like that. You know, I 1:08:11.280 --> 1:08:13.920 think it could help change the Well, let's go back 1:08:13.960 --> 1:08:16.080 to your husband. You pull up in the bus, You 1:08:16.120 --> 1:08:18.240 see him with a buzz cut. You said that dude 1:08:18.280 --> 1:08:21.519 looks hot. You really recognize him very slowly. How do 1:08:21.600 --> 1:08:25.200 you change the signal you're sending to him? Well, these 1:08:25.240 --> 1:08:28.840 are my trade secrets. I don't serve them. You've already 1:08:28.920 --> 1:08:30.760 used them. You're getting you know, you're very happily married. 1:08:31.439 --> 1:08:34.320 Help the audience. No, no, no, that's that's my own game. 1:08:34.400 --> 1:08:36.760 That's my private game for sure. I mean, how how 1:08:36.920 --> 1:08:40.040 you you let someone know? I mean, I knew he 1:08:40.040 --> 1:08:42.600 would loved me. Of course, we've established I loved you 1:08:42.760 --> 1:08:44.920 so well before he met you, So eventually I was 1:08:44.960 --> 1:08:47.840 just a bit more welcoming. You know, we'd spend time together, 1:08:48.000 --> 1:08:54.400 we'd looking you know, we just become really good friends. Okay, 1:08:54.840 --> 1:08:57.800 what advice would you give to someone where the other 1:08:57.960 --> 1:09:02.600 person's uh as ires are not as clear? I have 1:09:02.720 --> 1:09:04.400 no advice to give, because I think it's different for 1:09:04.520 --> 1:09:07.120 every single person. That's the thing where there's no blanket 1:09:07.400 --> 1:09:10.280 rulest there because each man and each woman and each 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:13.800 any any person of any gender, we're all made up 1:09:13.880 --> 1:09:16.760 so differently, and so what what is seen as a 1:09:18.040 --> 1:09:22.160 as um a dance between the two is is so 1:09:22.400 --> 1:09:25.560 unique to each relationship. I think you know, there's no 1:09:25.640 --> 1:09:28.719 blanket advice i'd give anyone for fear of that biting 1:09:28.800 --> 1:09:31.080 me in the ass. You sound like more of the 1:09:31.120 --> 1:09:33.160 type person would give advice and then when they came 1:09:33.200 --> 1:09:34.320 back to it and said it did work, so well, 1:09:34.360 --> 1:09:35.960 you know, what the hell do I know that's true? 1:09:35.960 --> 1:09:38.639 I mean, I mean I I the older I get, 1:09:38.720 --> 1:09:40.439 the less advice I want to get. And I feel 1:09:40.439 --> 1:09:43.519 the exact same way. Twenty years ago, I'd tell everybody 1:09:43.560 --> 1:09:46.240 how to live their lives. Now I'm not sure that 1:09:46.320 --> 1:09:48.280 I know what I'm talking about, and I know I 1:09:48.360 --> 1:09:49.920 have no idea what I'm talking and they say and 1:09:49.920 --> 1:09:52.400 they're not gonna listen to me exactly. It's like, why 1:09:52.479 --> 1:09:57.160 why ruin the relationship? But why waste the bread? Right now? 1:09:57.280 --> 1:10:00.920 The fantasy, the rock star fantasy, which aligns very much 1:10:00.960 --> 1:10:03.320 with the truth, is we have a guy who shy 1:10:03.920 --> 1:10:06.040 and he speaks to his guitar, and he feels, if 1:10:06.040 --> 1:10:09.240 I become successful musician, I will be able to have 1:10:10.000 --> 1:10:13.479 a girlfriend, of sex life, etcetera. That's men on the road. 1:10:13.760 --> 1:10:18.080 It is very different today in light of cell phone cameras, etcetera. 1:10:18.400 --> 1:10:21.840 But prior to that, the legend was relatively true. The 1:10:21.880 --> 1:10:25.040 men went on the road. There were groupies. As David 1:10:25.120 --> 1:10:27.560 lee Ros said, I know on the road and I 1:10:27.600 --> 1:10:29.679 can get laid every night of the week, not necessarily 1:10:29.720 --> 1:10:31.439 by whom I want to get laid by, but every 1:10:31.520 --> 1:10:34.400 night of the week. As a woman being on the road, 1:10:35.520 --> 1:10:38.760 what were your desires and your feelings in your own 1:10:38.840 --> 1:10:42.800 experience in this situation. I can remember, like you know, 1:10:43.080 --> 1:10:45.760 being like number one all over the world. I was 1:10:45.840 --> 1:10:49.919 all over like the coolest fashion magazines in the country. 1:10:50.680 --> 1:10:54.640 I was being lauded and applauded and and everything was 1:10:55.120 --> 1:10:58.200 tick tiboo from a professional standpoint. But I would go 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:01.000 back to my hotel tell room by myself. Let's stop 1:11:01.040 --> 1:11:03.920 with what is tixie boo? Ticken tyboo just means you 1:11:03.960 --> 1:11:07.160 know what ticken e boo? Right, Okay, you can just 1:11:07.240 --> 1:11:10.519 hear from from hearing it. But did you go back 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:13.400 to your hotel room happy or did you say, God, 1:11:13.439 --> 1:11:15.400 I'm on the cover every magazine. Here, I am alone. 1:11:15.439 --> 1:11:17.120 I probably went home back to my hotel room. How 1:11:17.160 --> 1:11:22.240 to wank? There is nobody around, you know, But I 1:11:22.400 --> 1:11:26.479 have to believe being that famous, invisible, men would try 1:11:26.520 --> 1:11:32.040 to make themselves available. No, No, men were terrified of me. Absolutely. 1:11:33.040 --> 1:11:35.720 You're a band on the road, which means you're going 1:11:35.840 --> 1:11:38.519 to concert halls, you're going to radio stations. There's a 1:11:38.680 --> 1:11:42.439 lot of men there. None of those men starts not 1:11:42.920 --> 1:11:49.080 what not once? I never got hit home once. Wow. Again, 1:11:49.160 --> 1:11:51.599 that's what I mean about the conditioning of the man too, 1:11:51.760 --> 1:11:55.479 how because men want to be the powerful alpha, and 1:11:55.560 --> 1:11:58.519 if you're the powerful alpha, that changes the dynamic. And 1:11:58.800 --> 1:12:01.040 no man really has been so I had to deal 1:12:01.120 --> 1:12:04.560 with that. Not many men, I should say, again sweeping generalizations, 1:12:04.760 --> 1:12:06.880 but the majority of men don't know how to deal 1:12:07.280 --> 1:12:10.280 with a woman who's more successful than they are, and 1:12:10.800 --> 1:12:13.400 you know, has has has a credit card and can 1:12:13.439 --> 1:12:15.880 get herself out of any situation. She doesn't need the 1:12:16.000 --> 1:12:18.599 night in shining Armor to come save her. They don't 1:12:18.640 --> 1:12:21.280 know what to do with that. In your marriage, are 1:12:21.360 --> 1:12:23.360 you the one? Do you wear the pants and the family, 1:12:23.439 --> 1:12:26.280 so to speak. No, I actually we have a pretty 1:12:26.320 --> 1:12:29.960 balanced So you decide you're going to go to dinner, 1:12:30.040 --> 1:12:33.400 who chooses the restaurant changes every day? Okay, So I 1:12:33.439 --> 1:12:35.240 mean I'm not being funny, I'm not being flippant. I 1:12:35.360 --> 1:12:38.040 was interressed with you. So it's balanced in the relationship. 1:12:38.760 --> 1:12:41.920 So once you get over the threshold, you're willing to 1:12:42.000 --> 1:12:44.719 be equal to the man as opposed to be dominant 1:12:44.760 --> 1:12:47.000 with the man. Well, I'll be dominant if I feel 1:12:47.080 --> 1:12:49.519 like this situation is not being taken care, of course, 1:12:49.600 --> 1:12:52.400 that's that's something different. So if we go back to 1:12:52.520 --> 1:12:57.720 this situation, you're on top of the world, you're and 1:12:58.280 --> 1:13:02.760 there are no um boyfriends at the time, do you 1:13:02.960 --> 1:13:08.439 start to hit on them? Well, that's a good question. 1:13:08.880 --> 1:13:11.120 I don't know. Some people say you're you you're flirting 1:13:11.160 --> 1:13:14.240 outrageously with him, and I'm like, no, I wasn't. Well, 1:13:14.360 --> 1:13:16.960 there's one thing to flirt outrageously and say I'm having fun, 1:13:17.320 --> 1:13:19.519 but I would never left this guy in my hotel room. Correct, 1:13:19.600 --> 1:13:21.120 there's another thing to say, I'm having fun if the 1:13:21.200 --> 1:13:24.920 guy is fun and it might go somewhere. To be honest, 1:13:25.000 --> 1:13:27.679 I'm not I can't I don't really have any memories 1:13:27.720 --> 1:13:32.160 of meeting somebody that was really interested in so because 1:13:32.479 --> 1:13:37.360 the pickens were slim or damn slim, and my standards 1:13:37.400 --> 1:13:39.640 were high, I mean to be honest, And again I'm 1:13:39.680 --> 1:13:43.400 signing like a sort of a sort of old maid 1:13:43.600 --> 1:13:47.519 in that I have never wanted to just have sex 1:13:47.840 --> 1:13:50.760 with someone just to have sex, because I just think, 1:13:51.080 --> 1:13:53.280 statistically wise, there's very few people that are going to 1:13:53.320 --> 1:13:57.600 make my experience worth it. So in general, I'm attracted 1:13:57.720 --> 1:14:01.400 to the brain first, and then then then I'm like, Okay, 1:14:01.439 --> 1:14:04.439 sex could be interesting, Let's see where this goes. But 1:14:04.560 --> 1:14:07.080 it's usually brain first. I'm never like, oh he's hot, 1:14:07.120 --> 1:14:09.519 I'm going to like go back to my you know. 1:14:09.640 --> 1:14:12.679 That's you know, in my limited experience. That's women feel 1:14:12.720 --> 1:14:16.920 the same way. They have millions of women that I 1:14:17.000 --> 1:14:19.800 know who are who will fux somebody for just sex. 1:14:20.080 --> 1:14:22.720 Millions of them, I think so. But isn't that they're 1:14:22.760 --> 1:14:26.839 the lower percentage? I don't know. Actually I would challenge 1:14:26.920 --> 1:14:29.439 the idea. I think that's what we've been led to believe. 1:14:31.479 --> 1:14:35.840 It's like affairs, you know, supposedly, you know, more women 1:14:35.880 --> 1:14:38.680 are having an affairs than men. What does that tell you. 1:14:40.439 --> 1:14:43.280 I think you know what it tells you. I know, 1:14:43.640 --> 1:14:46.559 I'm only put myself in the ground a little bit more. 1:14:46.840 --> 1:14:48.519 I think it'll do a great degree. That's men who 1:14:48.600 --> 1:14:51.519 are not servicing is a terrible world. I don't mean 1:14:51.600 --> 1:14:55.200 in terms of sexual stuff, but they're not paying attention 1:14:55.280 --> 1:14:58.800 to the woman. And the woman has opportunities. Well, women 1:14:58.840 --> 1:15:02.120 are finding opportunities for themselves and and and as they 1:15:02.200 --> 1:15:04.680 get older, they get better at doing that, and then 1:15:04.760 --> 1:15:07.160 it seems lose their confidence. It's it's a sort of 1:15:07.200 --> 1:15:11.000 flip of the way we are that we developed that 1:15:11.080 --> 1:15:13.320 the way we educate. I think women as they get older, 1:15:13.400 --> 1:15:15.439 get smarter, and they're like, oh, wait a minute, what 1:15:15.600 --> 1:15:19.479 a con this has been, you know, And men suddenly realize, oh, 1:15:19.560 --> 1:15:23.240 I'm not quite the dominant, gorgeous stud I thought I was. 1:15:23.600 --> 1:15:27.120 If their confidence drops, women's confidence rises. And so there 1:15:27.160 --> 1:15:30.840 you have men break up and they go hang with 1:15:30.920 --> 1:15:33.920 their budge and they watch ESPN and they drink beer 1:15:33.960 --> 1:15:36.559 and they don't even talk about it. Women women don't. 1:15:36.720 --> 1:15:39.519 Women rally around each other and can live without a man. 1:15:39.960 --> 1:15:43.040 It's the men who are That's right, motherfucker's exactly. But 1:15:43.160 --> 1:15:44.800 that's the men who are weak, they don't want to 1:15:44.840 --> 1:15:46.920 admit it. No, it's not that they're weak. I mean, 1:15:47.240 --> 1:15:50.320 I think again, they're just not given the tools. They're 1:15:50.360 --> 1:15:53.200 not educated. They're not sow on how to age, they're 1:15:53.240 --> 1:15:56.479 not sown how to live and have bigger women are 1:15:56.880 --> 1:16:00.920 taught how to survive in ways that men are, and 1:16:01.120 --> 1:16:03.080 vice versa. You know. So this is what I'm talking 1:16:03.080 --> 1:16:04.519 about goes back to what I'm saying earlier. We need 1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:06.519 to change the way we educated. We can all have 1:16:06.600 --> 1:16:11.160 happy health. I agree with better taught to go. I'll 1:16:11.240 --> 1:16:14.760 be hunters, but that's about it. It was funny you 1:16:14.800 --> 1:16:17.160 should say that because I suddenly had this sort of 1:16:17.520 --> 1:16:21.600 realization very recently. I was watching a TV show and 1:16:21.920 --> 1:16:24.479 it was about the Vikings and and men were getting 1:16:24.560 --> 1:16:27.759 sent off to you know, to fight, and it was brutal, 1:16:28.080 --> 1:16:29.880 and I was like, God, I think those those times, 1:16:29.920 --> 1:16:31.360 it must have been horrendous. And then it made me 1:16:31.439 --> 1:16:33.160 think of all the men that get sent off to 1:16:33.280 --> 1:16:36.160 this day into war. And men are sort of like 1:16:36.479 --> 1:16:40.879 they are educated to to shut something off in themselves 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:42.639 so that they will be willing to go and fight 1:16:42.680 --> 1:16:45.200 for their countries, you know, and get into these terrifying 1:16:45.280 --> 1:16:49.000 situations that never really happens to women. Not really again, 1:16:49.080 --> 1:16:52.040 sweeping generalizations. There's plenty of women in the services and 1:16:52.680 --> 1:16:55.640 and so on, But you know, sort of over the 1:16:55.760 --> 1:16:59.320 last few centuries, men have been taught a certain way 1:16:59.439 --> 1:17:03.240 so that they mindlessly going and and fight to their deaths. 1:17:03.640 --> 1:17:07.280 And and we that that society has changed slightly since then. 1:17:07.360 --> 1:17:09.280 And I think it's also changed because I grew up 1:17:09.280 --> 1:17:12.120 in aror of a draft where it kind of cross classes, 1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:15.080 where now it's an all volunteer army where the educating 1:17:15.160 --> 1:17:19.360 which tend not to go. Okay, But you've traveled around 1:17:19.360 --> 1:17:22.240 the world, where's the best or most exciting place, her 1:17:22.320 --> 1:17:24.679 favorite place you've been? Well, again, I don't believe in best, 1:17:24.840 --> 1:17:27.920 to be honest, I don't. I really really fight that 1:17:28.040 --> 1:17:30.920 idea of all every fiber of my being, because like 1:17:31.000 --> 1:17:33.120 I come from a family where my dad marks everything 1:17:33.160 --> 1:17:36.120 out of tain It drives me insane. To me, I 1:17:36.200 --> 1:17:40.160 feel like life is always surprising. You can go like 1:17:40.320 --> 1:17:43.720 you can go to Paris and have a dreadful experience 1:17:43.840 --> 1:17:47.200 hard to imagine, of course, So when you say what's 1:17:47.240 --> 1:17:49.840 the best, it's just what I guess is the most 1:17:49.960 --> 1:17:52.840 enjoyable on any given day. Yeah, and everywhere I go 1:17:53.000 --> 1:17:55.960 as a musician, and I've traveled almost everywhere at this point, 1:17:56.640 --> 1:18:00.040 I always managed to have an extraordinary, unique experience, And 1:18:00.120 --> 1:18:05.520 even if sometimes it's fraught with difficulty or there's an unpleasantry, overall, 1:18:05.600 --> 1:18:09.000 I just find everywhere I go fascinating. It's and travel 1:18:09.160 --> 1:18:12.120 has been the greatest privilege of my entire life. To 1:18:12.280 --> 1:18:15.120 go to the cities, to countries and see how other 1:18:15.200 --> 1:18:20.400 people live, how they think, is really really fascinating, endlessly 1:18:20.479 --> 1:18:23.120 fascinating to me. Well, I have a friend who was 1:18:23.200 --> 1:18:26.559 the photographer for Led Zeppelin, and he says, I've been 1:18:26.600 --> 1:18:29.439 around the world and I've seen nothing. So are you 1:18:29.520 --> 1:18:31.960 the type then that he's a fool? Of course, my 1:18:32.080 --> 1:18:34.679 question is he also was staying up all night developing 1:18:34.720 --> 1:18:37.200 film in the film era, so the band could wake 1:18:37.280 --> 1:18:39.240 up and see the photos from the night before, so 1:18:39.320 --> 1:18:41.160 it wasn't totally his fault. But there a lot of 1:18:41.280 --> 1:18:44.040 people they go, they go from the bus to the 1:18:44.120 --> 1:18:46.000 hotel to the gig, and they don't really see anything. 1:18:46.280 --> 1:18:48.360 Are you the type of person who takes advantage in 1:18:48.400 --> 1:18:51.280 these very I try? I try always to get up early, 1:18:51.400 --> 1:18:54.280 like you know will have traveled over you know, from 1:18:54.520 --> 1:18:57.519 I don't know, New York to to South after Cape 1:18:57.560 --> 1:19:00.240 Town for a random example, and we've had no but 1:19:00.240 --> 1:19:02.920 I'll still get up after two hours to go on 1:19:03.000 --> 1:19:05.080 SAFARTI because I know this will never happen to me again. 1:19:05.160 --> 1:19:07.360 You know. We get to Istanbul, same thing, We've been 1:19:07.400 --> 1:19:09.200 traveling all night, but you get the opportunity to go 1:19:09.280 --> 1:19:11.240 to the Blue mosque, you know, and have your mind blown. 1:19:11.840 --> 1:19:15.320 It's just I feel it's really important, you know too, 1:19:16.080 --> 1:19:19.840 to take advantage of those moments where you really get 1:19:19.960 --> 1:19:24.800 shown so much and it does shift your perspective so much. Absolutely. 1:19:24.880 --> 1:19:27.160 One of the problems you know with America is people 1:19:27.200 --> 1:19:29.439 haven't been anywhere, and I think it's the greatest I mean, 1:19:29.880 --> 1:19:32.640 tuck very minor things. You go to a European or 1:19:32.800 --> 1:19:35.960 you know, UK, it's finally coming to America. They have 1:19:36.040 --> 1:19:39.639 the dual flush toilet. I mean, that's a good idea. Okay, 1:19:40.240 --> 1:19:43.240 they just recently come to America where they can change 1:19:43.360 --> 1:19:48.000 the price of the gas electronically. These are not major things, 1:19:48.320 --> 1:19:50.400 but everybody in the United States to give it's oh 1:19:50.600 --> 1:19:53.240 where we are, it couldn't be any better. Where It's 1:19:53.320 --> 1:19:56.240 much better in many other places, of course, but then 1:19:56.280 --> 1:20:00.519 there's also incredibly beautiful, precious things about at the US, 1:20:00.600 --> 1:20:05.519 which you know, for me as an immigrant, you know, 1:20:05.680 --> 1:20:08.920 coming here, my entire career is down to America. Like 1:20:09.040 --> 1:20:11.360 I will never forget that. I have deep, deep love 1:20:11.479 --> 1:20:15.600 for this country. And a lot of people in the 1:20:15.680 --> 1:20:18.120 rest of the world take swings of America for a 1:20:18.200 --> 1:20:21.599 lot of different reasons, you know, But I always describe 1:20:21.640 --> 1:20:24.720 America as being in a really innocent like everybody's like, no, 1:20:24.800 --> 1:20:27.880 it's just vulgar. No, it's not vulgar. It's innocent because 1:20:28.200 --> 1:20:32.719 what of the population has never traversed outside the national boundaries. 1:20:32.720 --> 1:20:36.040 And like you say, everyone believes that they're the best 1:20:36.120 --> 1:20:38.600 in America, that they've got the best country, and and 1:20:38.760 --> 1:20:40.920 you know, one would argue that's not the case anymore, 1:20:41.120 --> 1:20:45.519 you know, And and that is a great sadness. But also, hey, 1:20:45.600 --> 1:20:47.880 welcome to the rest of the world. Were exactly, we're 1:20:47.920 --> 1:20:50.160 all the same, We're just all trying to figure everything out. 1:20:50.280 --> 1:20:54.599 And um, I think that what's what is both awful 1:20:54.680 --> 1:20:57.160 about the Internet, but what's also so great about it 1:20:57.360 --> 1:21:00.360 is it will and it is slowly impacting America and 1:21:00.479 --> 1:21:03.280 changing the way people think and everyone is becoming a 1:21:03.400 --> 1:21:05.880 bit more educated about other ways of life. It doesn't 1:21:05.920 --> 1:21:08.880 feel like that right now for obvious reasons. But I 1:21:08.960 --> 1:21:12.439 think ultimately, over the next thirty forty fifty years whatever, 1:21:12.600 --> 1:21:15.240 that America is going to change all for the better. 1:21:16.240 --> 1:21:20.200 Now the thirty years you have left, what would you 1:21:20.280 --> 1:21:24.040 like to accomplish or do? I want to continue to 1:21:24.120 --> 1:21:27.280 travel as much as possible. That is my biggest desire. 1:21:28.240 --> 1:21:31.639 And not to lose my curiosity. I want to remain 1:21:31.800 --> 1:21:35.760 curious if I and to keep and to try and 1:21:35.920 --> 1:21:40.880 nurture courage. I think that looks like that. I will 1:21:40.960 --> 1:21:43.600 continue to try new things that I will try and 1:21:44.400 --> 1:21:49.000 and meet people and without judgment, you know, and try 1:21:49.120 --> 1:21:51.759 and listen, try, and I want to be a better listener. 1:21:52.880 --> 1:21:55.040 That's that's a big thing for me. I like, I 1:21:55.160 --> 1:21:58.519 want to be in service rather than serving myself, you know. 1:21:58.560 --> 1:22:00.560 And I'm in an industry. What I've done nothing but 1:22:00.640 --> 1:22:03.640 served myself for twenty old years, you know. And I 1:22:03.840 --> 1:22:06.240 want to change that as much as possible as my 1:22:06.400 --> 1:22:10.479 life progresses. I want to be in service. Okay, I 1:22:10.680 --> 1:22:12.599 call you up or I text you and I say 1:22:13.120 --> 1:22:17.640 let's go to I need to write to there. No, no, no, uh, 1:22:18.520 --> 1:22:19.760 we're gonna go. I want to take you to this 1:22:19.920 --> 1:22:24.519 restaurant where you know they serve bird eggs and all that. 1:22:24.600 --> 1:22:26.760 Are you say, I'm into it as a new experience. 1:22:27.120 --> 1:22:31.160 Oh yeah, and I've eaten some terrible things. But I 1:22:31.280 --> 1:22:33.400 always want to try. I don't want to be that 1:22:33.520 --> 1:22:37.080 person who's scared to try because I've discovered incredible things 1:22:37.560 --> 1:22:39.720 that I didn't think I would like. Forgetting food, but 1:22:39.800 --> 1:22:42.160 just looking at the situation in general, have you ever 1:22:42.240 --> 1:22:44.080 said yes to something and said, oh, that was a 1:22:44.120 --> 1:22:48.599 big mistake. Yes? Do you remember anything? Yes, Space Mountain 1:22:48.640 --> 1:22:51.479 and Disneyland. I said yes, and I went on it, 1:22:51.600 --> 1:22:55.680 and I wished I hadn't said yes. I really hated it. Well, 1:22:55.720 --> 1:22:57.720 the funny thing about it is I didn't go on 1:22:57.800 --> 1:23:02.320 Space Mountain. That's horrible. Until you know, sometime like then 1:23:02.520 --> 1:23:06.280 in this century, okay, you know, they'd say Disneyland is 1:23:06.280 --> 1:23:08.040 the happiest place on Earth, and no, it's the most 1:23:08.120 --> 1:23:10.800 miserable place there. It's a place where I would never 1:23:10.880 --> 1:23:12.880 need go. I like to do everything in life once 1:23:13.120 --> 1:23:14.600 just so I could talk about it. And so I 1:23:14.640 --> 1:23:16.880 wrent there. It was greater or it sucked whatever. But 1:23:17.120 --> 1:23:19.200 I was not a Disneyland person. But I went with 1:23:19.320 --> 1:23:22.920 my nephews and we went on Space Mountain. I'm not 1:23:23.000 --> 1:23:25.880 a big roller coaster person. Whatever, But the fact that 1:23:25.960 --> 1:23:27.920 the roller coaster was underground, you know, because most of 1:23:27.960 --> 1:23:31.200 the rides at Disneyland are disappointing as rides, I thought 1:23:31.200 --> 1:23:34.200 it was pretty good. Yeah, I wouldn't say, see, I 1:23:34.240 --> 1:23:37.920 didn't find Disney Disneyland Rights disappointing. Far from it. I 1:23:38.040 --> 1:23:41.000 really enjoyed myself. However, my I did not find it 1:23:41.040 --> 1:23:43.040 the happiest place on Earth. I found it one of 1:23:43.080 --> 1:23:45.240 the most miserable places on Earth. I was engulfed in 1:23:45.320 --> 1:23:50.000 children's farts the entire time I was there. I hated 1:23:50.120 --> 1:23:52.479 standing for an hour and a half for a two minute, right, 1:23:52.600 --> 1:23:54.960 you know. But when I go into Space Mountain, I 1:23:55.080 --> 1:23:58.080 knew that it was like the pre move Right. Everyone 1:23:58.200 --> 1:24:00.080 was like, this is going to blow your mind, and 1:24:00.200 --> 1:24:05.000 I I honestly thought I was gonna have a heart attack. Really, yes, 1:24:05.320 --> 1:24:08.599 it was awful. That's one thing. I remember. They had 1:24:08.640 --> 1:24:10.680 a they're still there. They have something called the Revolution. 1:24:10.880 --> 1:24:14.160 Maybe they're gonna tear it downs. Original roller coaster at 1:24:14.760 --> 1:24:17.160 Magic Mountain and the seventies. It was the first roller 1:24:17.200 --> 1:24:19.960 cuature that went upside down. So I remember getting on. 1:24:20.040 --> 1:24:21.840 It would go up a little hill, gonna curve and 1:24:21.920 --> 1:24:24.080 then you and your theorical then you were You're there. 1:24:24.320 --> 1:24:26.960 I am so freaked up. You can't get off. It's 1:24:26.960 --> 1:24:28.760 like you're there. It's like there's nothing I can do. 1:24:29.760 --> 1:24:32.200 But I like being on the little teacups. I feel safe. 1:24:34.200 --> 1:24:38.320 Vomit cups really, oh man, those are really That was 1:24:38.360 --> 1:24:41.920 one of the original rides. But m music drove the 1:24:42.040 --> 1:24:44.559 culture in the era that you grew up in an iron, 1:24:44.920 --> 1:24:47.519 I do not believe music drives the culture at this 1:24:47.600 --> 1:24:53.360 particularly do I just think there's no common music driving 1:24:53.479 --> 1:24:55.519 the entire culture, if that makes any sense. I think 1:24:55.800 --> 1:24:58.360 music has got a big an influence now than it 1:24:59.200 --> 1:25:03.680 arguably ever. But it's all, you know, fractionalized or what's 1:25:03.680 --> 1:25:05.360 the word I'm looking. You know, I get what you're saying. 1:25:05.360 --> 1:25:08.240 You know, they're all these different niches. Why do you 1:25:08.280 --> 1:25:09.600 think it has as much. I mean, if I go 1:25:09.680 --> 1:25:12.240 back to the sixties, a rock star would say something 1:25:12.320 --> 1:25:14.240 and be on the radio and it would change thinking 1:25:14.320 --> 1:25:16.680 in the role to general. I don't think that happens. No, 1:25:16.760 --> 1:25:18.960 it doesn't have the same cultural impact because everyone's not 1:25:19.040 --> 1:25:22.200 listening to the same one artist. You know, when Elvis 1:25:22.320 --> 1:25:24.400 was singing, we were all listening to Elvis. You know, 1:25:24.720 --> 1:25:26.240 not you you were too well, I was too young. 1:25:26.320 --> 1:25:28.519 But I'm I'm trying to talk talk to It's okay, 1:25:28.520 --> 1:25:34.360 but I gotta bust you every chance I have. I 1:25:34.439 --> 1:25:36.960 gotta wake up. I gotta take some of that speed 1:25:37.000 --> 1:25:40.200 to get here. So I take my chances with the 1:25:40.280 --> 1:25:43.040 alpha female whenever I can get up. Feel respect. Okay. 1:25:43.479 --> 1:25:47.280 So in any event, you're you're saying that it's not 1:25:47.400 --> 1:25:49.559 driving the culture like it used in the days of Elvis. Well, 1:25:49.600 --> 1:25:52.240 single artists and bands are not. They don't have the 1:25:52.280 --> 1:25:55.360 same cultural impact. But music has never been more listened 1:25:55.400 --> 1:25:58.920 to ever historically speaking. I agree. But do you play 1:25:59.320 --> 1:26:01.880 at home? Do you play music? Yes? And what do 1:26:01.960 --> 1:26:05.800 you play? I listened to all kinds of music. I 1:26:05.840 --> 1:26:07.560 mean that sounds like such a copipe. I really do. 1:26:08.200 --> 1:26:11.840 And I've just taken very recently too. Instead of like 1:26:12.000 --> 1:26:16.400 sort of of curating my listening habits recently, I've just 1:26:16.520 --> 1:26:19.360 put my I've just turned my phone on and put 1:26:19.479 --> 1:26:22.120 it through this system and just listen to anything from 1:26:22.160 --> 1:26:25.400 my playlist that the phone dictates, and it's been extraordinary. 1:26:25.439 --> 1:26:28.800 I've loved it. But these are songs that you originally picked. Well, 1:26:28.840 --> 1:26:31.240 there's certainly albums that I've picked. Yeah, But like I said, 1:26:31.280 --> 1:26:32.960 I listened to classical, I listened to j azz, I 1:26:33.000 --> 1:26:34.720 listened to blues, I listen to Paula, I listen to rock, 1:26:34.760 --> 1:26:36.639 I listen to heavy metal. I mean, I will listen 1:26:36.720 --> 1:26:38.840 to anything, but I get overwhelmed. I mean it's like 1:26:38.880 --> 1:26:40.959 if you go on Spotify or any of the services 1:26:41.400 --> 1:26:43.320 and you listen to the new music and they break 1:26:43.360 --> 1:26:46.040 it down by genre, and you say, okay, there's fifty 1:26:46.080 --> 1:26:49.160 country tracks, fifty damce tracks, and if you listen to fifty, 1:26:49.600 --> 1:26:51.880 you'll find one or two good ones, and you start 1:26:51.960 --> 1:26:55.080 to get overwhelmed. Yeah, it's overwhelming, you know, and a 1:26:55.120 --> 1:26:57.080 lot of times you'll find something go, you'll reach it. 1:26:57.320 --> 1:26:59.439 Is anybody else I like this as anybody else like 1:26:59.520 --> 1:27:03.200 the there's no coherence to the culture. That's true. But 1:27:03.400 --> 1:27:05.880 is that about then? I'm not that's about I think 1:27:06.720 --> 1:27:09.640 to do. No. I hate being told what to do. 1:27:10.360 --> 1:27:12.120 But it goes back to what we're talking about earlier 1:27:12.160 --> 1:27:14.760 in terms of argument. We live in an era where 1:27:14.760 --> 1:27:17.599 everyone has their own facts in their own lives, which 1:27:17.720 --> 1:27:22.360 is almost a tower of Babel society. And even with 1:27:22.520 --> 1:27:25.040 television where in the golden age of television and is 1:27:25.360 --> 1:27:27.680 there are a lot fewer television shows than there are 1:27:27.840 --> 1:27:31.639 music shows. But even then we'll find well, we can't 1:27:31.680 --> 1:27:34.519 talk because we didn't see the same shows, we didn't 1:27:34.520 --> 1:27:39.479 see the same movies. Okay, so there's no community fiber No, 1:27:39.640 --> 1:27:42.600 that's true. But we don't know yet where that's going 1:27:42.680 --> 1:27:45.200 to go. That might go somewhere fantastic, we just don't 1:27:45.240 --> 1:27:48.240 know yet. Well, I think I believe it's going to 1:27:48.320 --> 1:27:50.880 go along the lines of Americ at large, which is 1:27:50.880 --> 1:27:54.439 winners and losers. I believe we have an inherent desire 1:27:55.000 --> 1:27:58.080 to be with other people, like you talk about going 1:27:58.120 --> 1:28:00.479 out to breakfast or dinner whatever, or to be able 1:28:00.479 --> 1:28:03.160 to say, oh I saw that show. It sucked, okay. 1:28:03.800 --> 1:28:06.639 And therefore there's a lot of rabble rousing from people 1:28:06.680 --> 1:28:09.640 who are not successful. But the reasons if you look 1:28:09.640 --> 1:28:11.720 at the movie business, like and I don't go to 1:28:11.760 --> 1:28:13.519 the movies. First of they don't start when you want 1:28:13.680 --> 1:28:15.519 them to start. And I have so much I don't 1:28:15.560 --> 1:28:17.360 have any time, and I have so many options at 1:28:17.400 --> 1:28:20.680 home on the flat screen. But if you look at 1:28:20.680 --> 1:28:24.760 the weekly grossers, you know, Black Panther well far eclips 1:28:24.800 --> 1:28:27.000 all the other movies combined. And I think part of 1:28:27.040 --> 1:28:29.800 the people say, oh, yeah, I saw that good bad. Otherwise, 1:28:30.240 --> 1:28:32.680 I think there's a desire for community. There is a 1:28:32.760 --> 1:28:36.120 desire for community. But at the same time, I do 1:28:36.320 --> 1:28:39.479 believe in the principle of evolution. I have faith in 1:28:39.560 --> 1:28:43.080 evolution that evolution will sort this out sooner or later. 1:28:43.280 --> 1:28:47.599 I mean, every generation moans about the new generation that's 1:28:47.600 --> 1:28:51.840 in place, you know, And I feel that we always 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:56.160 harp on about how things once were, forgetting the evolution 1:28:56.320 --> 1:28:59.320 has always like I have better life than my mom did, 1:28:59.400 --> 1:29:01.160 and my mom has better life than my granny did. 1:29:01.760 --> 1:29:04.639 And I have to assume that my all my friends 1:29:04.760 --> 1:29:06.800 kids will have a better life than and than we did. 1:29:07.280 --> 1:29:10.720 And I think that's a great thing. And I think 1:29:10.960 --> 1:29:15.000 we can all sort of like pick over the carcass 1:29:15.080 --> 1:29:17.519 of what once was, or we can embrace what is. 1:29:17.680 --> 1:29:19.439 And I want to be and what is I'm going 1:29:19.479 --> 1:29:21.880 to embrace what is. Well, I'm gonna argue with you, Okay, 1:29:22.160 --> 1:29:24.000 in my generation, I know a lot of people are 1:29:24.040 --> 1:29:27.000 not doing as well as their parents. Okay, the baby boomers, 1:29:27.240 --> 1:29:29.400 their parents had a lot. But you're you're talking about 1:29:29.439 --> 1:29:32.719 economics though, right, you're talking about house and money, okay, 1:29:32.760 --> 1:29:37.679 and you're talking about rights, freedoms, well, knowledge, I would 1:29:37.800 --> 1:29:40.400 argue me, gay people can get married in America, which 1:29:40.479 --> 1:29:42.479 is wonderful. I gret a lot of that to MTV. 1:29:42.560 --> 1:29:45.240 People saw a rainbow of colors there and therefore they were, 1:29:45.320 --> 1:29:48.439 you know, there's less racism, etcetera. But we live in 1:29:48.479 --> 1:29:50.840 a country. By the way, there isn't less racism. But 1:29:51.120 --> 1:29:53.320 that's a whole lot of I would look back to that. 1:29:54.720 --> 1:29:58.720 I believe in America there is less racism, but you 1:29:58.760 --> 1:30:02.160 have a very vocal mind party who was afraid of losing. 1:30:02.520 --> 1:30:04.840 I have to disagree. You're talking from a very white, 1:30:04.880 --> 1:30:08.160 privileged position. Now I'm saying that if you go back 1:30:08.320 --> 1:30:12.200 decades and you saw an interracial couple walking down the street, 1:30:12.920 --> 1:30:16.920 chances are there to be sneers or comments. I believe 1:30:17.080 --> 1:30:19.720 there are less and now we're all victims of our 1:30:19.720 --> 1:30:22.920 own experience. And I'm not saying there's not racism, there's 1:30:22.920 --> 1:30:28.040 not anti semitism, there's not sexism. But I believe, but 1:30:28.120 --> 1:30:31.799 I believe as a result of media, there's a certain 1:30:31.920 --> 1:30:35.240 level of enlightenment. I view as a result of the 1:30:35.320 --> 1:30:40.320 economic disparity. Okay, the people who have been left out, 1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:42.840 whether through their own faults or not through room fault, 1:30:43.120 --> 1:30:48.960 have started to rebel around the world Brexit, Trump, etcetera. 1:30:49.240 --> 1:30:53.000 And it's focused on those people. Unfortunately, with that has 1:30:53.120 --> 1:30:55.800 come racism. And I don't want to comment on the 1:30:55.840 --> 1:30:57.200 rest of the rule because I'm not as much of 1:30:57.240 --> 1:31:00.479 an expert, but in America, I would believe pound for 1:31:00.640 --> 1:31:04.680 pound there's less racism and less homophobia than there was. 1:31:04.800 --> 1:31:07.560 Not that there isn't very vocal racism and homophobia, but 1:31:07.640 --> 1:31:10.920 I think we're you know, it's like Jerry Springer, who 1:31:11.000 --> 1:31:13.320 used to be the mayor of Cleveland, Okay, before he 1:31:13.360 --> 1:31:16.040 had his insane show, And he's not a stupid guy. 1:31:16.120 --> 1:31:19.599 He says, the liberals always win in the end, Okay, 1:31:19.920 --> 1:31:23.759 all the things that were unthinkable, you know, abortion, gay marriage, etcetera, etcetera, 1:31:23.920 --> 1:31:28.840 they're happening. Eventually the rest of the world wakes up. Well, 1:31:28.840 --> 1:31:30.840 I don't even notice where to start without to be honest, 1:31:30.960 --> 1:31:34.960 we'll start anywhere, but I'll start with have you I 1:31:35.040 --> 1:31:36.840 don't know what that is. It's a documentary about the 1:31:36.880 --> 1:31:43.439 penal system here in America. No have you seen back. 1:31:43.720 --> 1:31:46.360 But you're making the point that a whole generation of 1:31:46.479 --> 1:31:49.040 African Americans were wiping up by putting them in gails. 1:31:49.320 --> 1:31:52.040 It's not what you're making. I agree totally. You know 1:31:52.439 --> 1:31:56.000 that there's a lot of endemic problems. I'm not apologizing 1:31:56.080 --> 1:31:59.840 for them. But what I'm saying is that I believe 1:32:00.439 --> 1:32:05.799 that generally it's gone. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Well, again, 1:32:05.840 --> 1:32:08.160 it's complex, isn't it. There are some people who get 1:32:08.240 --> 1:32:12.080 left behind this, but generally speaking, our generation has it 1:32:12.160 --> 1:32:16.519 better than the previous generation. And then there are parts 1:32:16.680 --> 1:32:19.960 of our society who are being left behind, and that's 1:32:20.240 --> 1:32:24.200 blacks and and people of color aggressively so, but it's 1:32:24.200 --> 1:32:25.840 also white. I don't want to make this, as you know, 1:32:25.920 --> 1:32:28.360 white apologists, but just to illuminate the point, this is 1:32:28.400 --> 1:32:31.280 how Trump got elected. There are people as a result 1:32:31.320 --> 1:32:35.680 of the economic changes they in globalization, they don't have 1:32:36.160 --> 1:32:38.559 if you're left behind. And and then the crazy thing, 1:32:38.680 --> 1:32:41.000 same thing with Brexit. Their solution is let's chet back 1:32:41.040 --> 1:32:43.120 to the past, and the past is never coming back. 1:32:43.200 --> 1:32:46.040 But that's Trump's approach to It's it's very like I 1:32:46.200 --> 1:32:47.880 just did never believe you can look back. I think 1:32:47.920 --> 1:32:50.400 you must always look forward to you know. Well, the 1:32:50.479 --> 1:32:52.640 scary thing is I mean I certainly lived through the 1:32:52.680 --> 1:32:55.559 sixties with the Vietnam War and the draft, but since 1:32:55.720 --> 1:32:58.960 then in America, this is the first time where every 1:32:59.080 --> 1:33:02.960 you're addicted to the news and it's uh, it's just 1:33:03.080 --> 1:33:05.439 like when the wall fell, When the wall fell in 1:33:05.520 --> 1:33:07.639 Berlin and you were there, we were of the illusion 1:33:07.720 --> 1:33:10.960 in America the other doctor, democracy will reign. And now 1:33:11.120 --> 1:33:14.439 you have booting, you know, assassinating spies in a different country, 1:33:14.960 --> 1:33:17.760 and we have you know, you know, we have the 1:33:19.040 --> 1:33:21.800 head of the country for life in China. It's you know, 1:33:21.840 --> 1:33:24.439 the world is going to it. You know, it's going 1:33:24.520 --> 1:33:29.080 to exactly as my dad says. And I actually feel 1:33:29.120 --> 1:33:32.120 like I have to cling onto this analogy, which is, 1:33:32.280 --> 1:33:35.439 you know, evolution happens whether we like it or not. 1:33:36.000 --> 1:33:40.200 It's just what occurs when you leave humans on a 1:33:40.280 --> 1:33:44.759 planet for long enough, they will evolve. And there's always 1:33:44.840 --> 1:33:47.360 moments he said, it's just like it's like tight, it's 1:33:47.439 --> 1:33:49.920 like title shifts, you know, you it's the type gets 1:33:49.960 --> 1:33:52.960 sucked back for a moment, and then it searches forward, 1:33:53.000 --> 1:33:55.479 and it searches for further forward than it did before. 1:33:56.040 --> 1:33:58.519 And that's that's always what my dad says to try 1:33:58.560 --> 1:34:00.600 and calm me down when I'm getting his terrecal and 1:34:01.280 --> 1:34:04.360 full of desperate depression about the way the world is turning. 1:34:04.439 --> 1:34:09.280 He's like, it's will turn back, generally speaking, as I 1:34:09.400 --> 1:34:12.800 used to be a terrible pessimist, and then something turned 1:34:12.800 --> 1:34:15.040 around when my mom died for me, like I was 1:34:15.120 --> 1:34:17.519 like a bolt from the blue I had. I was 1:34:17.640 --> 1:34:21.000 forced to change my thinking because if I hadn't changed 1:34:21.040 --> 1:34:24.360 my thinking, I would have died of grief. And and 1:34:24.840 --> 1:34:28.479 I I just decided me. I made a decision that 1:34:28.640 --> 1:34:30.320 the light because my mom had a lot of light 1:34:30.360 --> 1:34:33.000 in her. She was a real people pleaser, my mom, 1:34:33.040 --> 1:34:34.720 because she'd been a norphan and she wants people to 1:34:34.800 --> 1:34:37.200 love her and like her, and so she brought light 1:34:37.320 --> 1:34:40.160 into every situation. And I used to annoy me, you know, 1:34:40.360 --> 1:34:44.400 as a moody teenager. It just fucking and irritated me. 1:34:44.880 --> 1:34:47.719 And then when she died, I realized that light is gone. 1:34:47.920 --> 1:34:50.040 You know, people would say to me at my mom's funeral, 1:34:50.080 --> 1:34:52.360 you know your mom always you never left your mom 1:34:52.479 --> 1:34:55.080 feeling worse. You always left your mom feeling better than 1:34:55.120 --> 1:34:57.960 you did before you bumped into her. And I just 1:34:58.080 --> 1:35:00.320 made this decision that I had to do something with 1:35:00.439 --> 1:35:03.000 my mom's light. I couldn't let it go and dissipate 1:35:03.080 --> 1:35:05.080 into nothing. That's I had to hold a bit of 1:35:05.120 --> 1:35:08.040 her light in me, and I used that to change 1:35:08.080 --> 1:35:11.360 the way I approached my life. It sounds really okay, 1:35:11.439 --> 1:35:14.439 but it's really true, and it was quite that conscious. 1:35:14.600 --> 1:35:16.640 It was conscious. Yeah. I was just like, I need 1:35:16.720 --> 1:35:19.360 to change the way I I don't want people to 1:35:19.479 --> 1:35:21.479 leave me feeling worse. I don't want to be a 1:35:21.600 --> 1:35:24.519 vibe crush. I don't want people to feel yucky around me. 1:35:24.920 --> 1:35:26.479 And you know, we're all aware of what that's like 1:35:26.600 --> 1:35:29.120 to bump into somebody who makes us feel disgusting. You know, 1:35:29.479 --> 1:35:33.320 whether they're irritable, whether they're depressed, whether they moan, whether 1:35:33.360 --> 1:35:35.200 they only talk about themselves. I don't know, there's a 1:35:35.240 --> 1:35:37.599 million one reasons why we don't like being around people. Yeah, 1:35:38.240 --> 1:35:39.840 and I was just like, I want to be a 1:35:39.960 --> 1:35:42.679 person in the world that makes people feel good again. 1:35:42.720 --> 1:35:44.760 I go back this word of being in service, Like 1:35:44.880 --> 1:35:47.680 I just I want to take my Mom's light and 1:35:48.080 --> 1:35:50.040 give it to someone else so we can spread these 1:35:50.160 --> 1:35:54.240 particles of my amazing mother. When you talk about service, 1:35:54.439 --> 1:35:59.720 that's twelve step language. Is that where you got it? Oh? God, no, no? 1:36:00.240 --> 1:36:03.439 And you never had a problem with alcohol problem? Okay, 1:36:03.680 --> 1:36:05.719 that's not to say I won't develop one. I love alcohol. 1:36:08.080 --> 1:36:10.439 I had to stop drinking alcohol because I was definitely 1:36:10.479 --> 1:36:12.720 the type person who couldn't have only one. If you 1:36:12.760 --> 1:36:14.439 want to have one or two drinks, didn't you didn't 1:36:14.479 --> 1:36:15.559 call me you want to have the night of your 1:36:15.640 --> 1:36:20.200 life or attempt? You know. Oh boy, I can tell 1:36:20.280 --> 1:36:23.040 story after story, and then then there's you know how I, 1:36:23.320 --> 1:36:25.320 and then how I finally stopped and I did not 1:36:25.520 --> 1:36:27.880 stop saying, Oh I'm never gonna I'm never gonna have 1:36:27.880 --> 1:36:30.240 another drink. It's just my life got way too crazy, 1:36:30.840 --> 1:36:34.760 and uh, excuse me. I want to know more. This 1:36:34.960 --> 1:36:37.200 is a much longer story, but I'll give you just 1:36:38.200 --> 1:36:41.920 the tip of it. Yeah, give me the crucial. So 1:36:42.040 --> 1:36:46.120 this was nineteen This is a long time ago, one 1:36:46.240 --> 1:36:51.439 going into two, and I had been stopped for drunk 1:36:51.560 --> 1:36:55.400 driving on the night that John Lennon got died. John 1:36:55.479 --> 1:36:59.000 and Jack shot and died. That's an amazing story unto itself. 1:36:59.680 --> 1:37:03.640 But I ultimately got a reckless driving as opposed to 1:37:03.760 --> 1:37:08.080 d u Y and there's a condition with that where 1:37:08.200 --> 1:37:11.599 you can't drive within eight hours of having a drink. 1:37:12.320 --> 1:37:14.760 And in the time it took for that case to 1:37:14.920 --> 1:37:18.439 come to court, I've been stopped once again on the 1:37:18.520 --> 1:37:23.800 four oh five in that point. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to 1:37:24.000 --> 1:37:27.000 this week's edition of the Bob Left Sets podcast. My 1:37:27.200 --> 1:37:31.520 guest this week is vocalist extraordinaire lead singer of Garbage, 1:37:31.840 --> 1:37:38.560 Shirley Manson. Shirley, back out here. Okay, you're from Scotland. 1:37:39.040 --> 1:37:42.840 We are really Scotland ignorant here. Okay, what's it like 1:37:42.920 --> 1:37:47.160 growing up in Scotland. Well, you know, at the time, 1:37:47.240 --> 1:37:50.080 it didn't feel so fantastic, but looking back on it 1:37:50.200 --> 1:37:52.400 now I realized what a privilege it was, you know, 1:37:52.400 --> 1:37:55.920 because it's a small island and it was a time 1:37:56.240 --> 1:37:58.120 I was I was born in sixty six, so I 1:37:58.200 --> 1:37:59.680 grew up in the seventies and it was at a 1:37:59.760 --> 1:38:03.600 time when the British government actually paid for education, They 1:38:03.760 --> 1:38:06.360 put money into it. We all had government run schools 1:38:06.680 --> 1:38:08.479 and they were and they were well funded, so had 1:38:08.520 --> 1:38:12.519 a great education. I had. I came from a family, 1:38:12.720 --> 1:38:15.679 three children. My mom and dad loved each other until 1:38:15.800 --> 1:38:19.840 death did they part? And I think, now knowing what 1:38:19.920 --> 1:38:23.920 I know, that's really unusual to certainly with the younger generations. 1:38:24.240 --> 1:38:26.599 I mean, the only thing I haven't been to Scotland, 1:38:27.080 --> 1:38:28.760 but there was that movie and I can't remember there 1:38:28.800 --> 1:38:31.040 was a famous movie maker talking about the ice cream 1:38:31.120 --> 1:38:33.840 War in do you know that? Was that Danny Boyle? 1:38:33.880 --> 1:38:36.160 I thing? God, I can't remember. But in any event, 1:38:36.400 --> 1:38:39.920 where did you actually grow up in Scotland? How do you? 1:38:40.160 --> 1:38:45.040 How do you pronounce that? Edinburgh? Edinburgh? Okay? Ed okay? 1:38:45.280 --> 1:38:46.840 And what did your father do for a living? My 1:38:46.960 --> 1:38:50.960 father was a university professor, really and what did he teach? 1:38:51.320 --> 1:38:56.960 He taught animal breeding in sort of genetics and animal breeding, 1:38:57.280 --> 1:39:00.519 poultry breeding as well. He would come home for dinner. 1:39:00.520 --> 1:39:03.120 Would he talk about that? Very rarely? I mean he 1:39:03.439 --> 1:39:05.640 he as we got older, he would talk about the 1:39:05.720 --> 1:39:10.679 genetic program because they were his sort of university cloned 1:39:10.720 --> 1:39:12.360 Dolly the Sheep. I don't know if you remember that, 1:39:12.479 --> 1:39:16.360 but so that was his faculty that really. Yeah, So 1:39:16.680 --> 1:39:19.000 he started to talk up to us about genetics and 1:39:19.240 --> 1:39:21.760 we were so bored. We can you know? Okay, so 1:39:21.880 --> 1:39:24.320 if I take you out on the ranch with the animals, 1:39:24.479 --> 1:39:28.320 you're as clueless as I am. Well, maybe not quite 1:39:28.360 --> 1:39:32.880 as clueless as you, Bob. We got the humor going 1:39:32.960 --> 1:39:34.800 at this point in time. Okay. And did your mother 1:39:34.880 --> 1:39:38.080 work outside the house? My mother sort of eventually as 1:39:38.160 --> 1:39:40.640 we were growing up, when we were teenagers. She's she 1:39:41.040 --> 1:39:43.360 became a medical reception as she looked after a bunch 1:39:43.400 --> 1:39:46.680 of doctors. But she really was pretty much a housewife, 1:39:46.880 --> 1:39:51.160 which is a terminology that's thankfully becoming, you know, obsolete. 1:39:51.280 --> 1:39:54.519 But she she was clear. She called herself a housewife, right, 1:39:54.680 --> 1:39:56.639 I guess you know now they say, you know she works, 1:39:56.720 --> 1:39:59.519 but she works in the home. But okay, so where 1:39:59.520 --> 1:40:01.960 are you in the hierarchy of the middle child? The 1:40:02.160 --> 1:40:06.320 real messed up one the middle of three? And who 1:40:06.360 --> 1:40:08.759 else is a boy or a girl? All three girls? 1:40:09.080 --> 1:40:13.160 All three girls. I'm a middle child too, so sorry, Okay. 1:40:13.520 --> 1:40:16.519 My older sister she believes you can conquer the world, 1:40:17.080 --> 1:40:19.800 and my younger sister is the baby could always cry 1:40:19.880 --> 1:40:21.320 to get out of this, and I was kind of 1:40:21.400 --> 1:40:24.440 lost in the middle. I had exactly the same experience. 1:40:24.960 --> 1:40:26.960 It's really I was married to one who was also 1:40:27.000 --> 1:40:30.320 a middle kid. I wonder whether that was part of 1:40:30.400 --> 1:40:34.320 the connection, because you're kind of overlooked. You feel you're overlooked. 1:40:34.360 --> 1:40:36.680 I don't think you actually are, but that's how I 1:40:36.880 --> 1:40:39.160 think I perceived it. And I also got hamly done 1:40:39.200 --> 1:40:41.120 clothes all the time. I never got new clothes when 1:40:41.120 --> 1:40:43.040 I was growing up. I was always my sister's clothes, 1:40:43.360 --> 1:40:45.800 and by the time I had worn through the set clothes, 1:40:45.840 --> 1:40:47.800 my little sister got brand new clothes. So I mean 1:40:48.000 --> 1:40:50.600 I was twisted, you know, yeah, yeah, the level of resentment. 1:40:50.640 --> 1:40:52.840 I didn't have that problem because my older and younger 1:40:53.080 --> 1:40:55.880 siblings were sisters. But I know, I know exactly what 1:40:56.000 --> 1:40:59.400 you're talking about. And Okay, what kind of kid are 1:40:59.479 --> 1:41:01.920 you growing up? Are you a rebellious kid? Are you 1:41:02.000 --> 1:41:05.559 kid of you know obeys orders? For the first sort 1:41:05.600 --> 1:41:08.840 of twelve years of my life, I obeyed orders. I 1:41:08.920 --> 1:41:14.360 was an incredibly devout student, and I, you know, had 1:41:14.400 --> 1:41:17.880 a great faith in Jesus, and I was interested in 1:41:17.960 --> 1:41:20.400 religion and all kinds of things. I was very sweet, 1:41:21.000 --> 1:41:25.000 pretty uh, sort of conventional kid, and then the hormones 1:41:25.080 --> 1:41:27.640 kicked in and I went mental. Okay, did you go 1:41:27.680 --> 1:41:30.040 to public school? Or did you go to Catholic school. Well, 1:41:30.080 --> 1:41:32.920 it's a good question, because we call public public schools 1:41:32.960 --> 1:41:35.599 private school. We went to government funded had the government 1:41:35.640 --> 1:41:38.519 funded schools. But you had a strict Catholic family. I 1:41:38.600 --> 1:41:41.680 did not. I came up in a Protestant family. My 1:41:41.800 --> 1:41:44.080 dad was my Sunday school teacher, which also didn't help 1:41:44.120 --> 1:41:49.040 my No. No, no, no, you can imagine. I can't imagine. 1:41:50.400 --> 1:41:53.519 That kind of messed me up good too. So yeah, okay, 1:41:53.840 --> 1:41:55.960 but you were a big believer. I was a huge 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:59.200 believer about today you believe her today. I'm a nonbeliever now. 1:41:59.680 --> 1:42:02.479 And what was the transition? How did you decide that 1:42:03.000 --> 1:42:05.120 there wasn't a little man in this guy who was 1:42:05.200 --> 1:42:08.719 deciding whether you've been noaughty or nice? Well, it started 1:42:08.760 --> 1:42:12.000 off with just a sort of sudden observation of the 1:42:12.120 --> 1:42:15.000 people in in our church that we went that we 1:42:15.120 --> 1:42:18.280 went to. I noticed that they did not adhere to 1:42:18.360 --> 1:42:22.840 the principles that were being, you know, sermonized, And I 1:42:22.960 --> 1:42:27.679 started to smell hypocrisy. And I then would meet people 1:42:27.720 --> 1:42:30.640 who were nonbelievers who actually did seem to practice some 1:42:31.880 --> 1:42:36.120 kind spiritual practice. We have that in government today. All 1:42:36.160 --> 1:42:39.479 the people seemingly were anti abortion, have had an abortion 1:42:39.600 --> 1:42:42.559 themselves or their partners had an abortion. It's just crazy. 1:42:42.760 --> 1:42:45.839 So in any event, you turned age twelve, the hormones 1:42:45.920 --> 1:42:50.040 kicking and you freak out. What does that look like? Well, I, 1:42:50.640 --> 1:42:53.840 having been a pretty good student, I just stopped paying 1:42:53.840 --> 1:42:58.200 attention in school. I stopped going to school. I started smoking, 1:42:58.320 --> 1:43:02.800 I started flirting with you know, seft drugs. I became 1:43:02.880 --> 1:43:06.040 interested in boys. I got involved in a youth theater 1:43:06.200 --> 1:43:10.000 and a band. A little bit slower in America, it's 1:43:10.040 --> 1:43:12.280 kind of like the Little Rascals if you know those 1:43:13.040 --> 1:43:15.800 Saturday morning car There's a truan officer and if you 1:43:15.840 --> 1:43:18.400 skip school, they're going to track you down. So you're 1:43:18.439 --> 1:43:21.400 skipping school and your father's in the educational system. Was 1:43:21.439 --> 1:43:23.840 anybody aware of the fact you were skipping school? Well 1:43:23.880 --> 1:43:26.720 not at first, and actually it was my dad who 1:43:26.760 --> 1:43:30.080 busted me in the end. Um. But no, the teachers 1:43:30.160 --> 1:43:33.000 didn't really notice because of the way that our system 1:43:33.080 --> 1:43:37.320 worked at that time. UM. So I'd always appear for registrations, 1:43:37.400 --> 1:43:39.639 so you were there when they called the roll call, 1:43:40.120 --> 1:43:41.920 and then I would just go home. But my my, 1:43:42.200 --> 1:43:46.200 my house was like jammed up against the playground of 1:43:46.280 --> 1:43:48.640 the school, so I could just get home to my 1:43:48.760 --> 1:43:52.720 bedroom in about five seconds. So it's very convenient for 1:43:52.920 --> 1:43:55.920 skipping school until you had your father find out. He 1:43:56.000 --> 1:43:58.200 came home one day unexpectedly and find me in my 1:43:58.280 --> 1:44:01.600 bedroom with a bunch of pals smoking. I don't know 1:44:01.640 --> 1:44:04.080 why else we were up to. You went absolutely mental, 1:44:04.600 --> 1:44:10.200 and he called the head master and he doped me in. 1:44:10.439 --> 1:44:12.280 He was like, my child this year, she should be 1:44:12.320 --> 1:44:14.400 at school. I'm sending it in to see you right now. 1:44:15.040 --> 1:44:17.760 And he sent me to the head master and I 1:44:17.920 --> 1:44:21.240 got I can't remember what happened, but I got well 1:44:21.800 --> 1:44:25.560 royally punished. I had to do like after school punishment 1:44:25.640 --> 1:44:27.439 and all that. Well, did it set you on a 1:44:27.520 --> 1:44:30.080 straight course or did you continue to diverge from the 1:44:30.120 --> 1:44:32.680 straight and earra I continue, even at fifty one, to 1:44:32.800 --> 1:44:35.160 diverge from the straight and now, Well, it's kind of funny. 1:44:35.200 --> 1:44:37.160 It's hard to diverge from the straight and narrow. We 1:44:37.240 --> 1:44:39.360 live in it. I'm older than you are, but certainly 1:44:39.479 --> 1:44:42.479 lived through the sixties. It was the opposite of group think, 1:44:43.000 --> 1:44:45.719 and now there's total group thinking, and if you feel otherwise, 1:44:46.040 --> 1:44:48.360 you're really scorned by society. You end up feeling like 1:44:48.400 --> 1:44:51.439 a party of one. That's my experience. You know, I'm 1:44:51.479 --> 1:44:53.439 really lucky, and that I don't have that experience. I 1:44:53.520 --> 1:44:55.360 know exactly what you're talking about, and I think that 1:44:55.479 --> 1:44:58.439 does exist, and it's becoming more and more prevalent. But 1:44:58.560 --> 1:45:01.559 I was really lucky and that I a very strong 1:45:01.640 --> 1:45:07.200 minded father who had very definitive ideas, and I would 1:45:07.240 --> 1:45:10.799 fight against him over and over and over again for years, 1:45:10.960 --> 1:45:13.040 to the point where I learned to hold my own 1:45:13.080 --> 1:45:16.800 in an argument. If he didn't, you know, agree with me, 1:45:17.040 --> 1:45:18.880 that was cool. If I didn't agree with him, it 1:45:19.000 --> 1:45:20.960 was cool. He was He was really fair that way, 1:45:21.560 --> 1:45:23.880 and so I just learned to have to develop my 1:45:23.960 --> 1:45:27.680 own system of ideas and beliefs. Do you think he 1:45:27.840 --> 1:45:31.880 was doing that to inculcate that behavior in yourself or 1:45:31.960 --> 1:45:33.880 do you think he was really rigid and you were 1:45:33.920 --> 1:45:37.880 just a rebel? Neither of the bob. I think he 1:45:38.400 --> 1:45:41.439 is quite rebellious my dad. Is he still with us, Yes, 1:45:41.520 --> 1:45:46.519 he's still with us, and he's eighty one, and he's 1:45:46.880 --> 1:45:50.000 very full of vigor and as a rigorous thinker, and 1:45:50.560 --> 1:45:53.400 I think he enjoyed being challenged by me because he 1:45:53.520 --> 1:45:56.200 often of course, when you have young children. He would 1:45:56.240 --> 1:45:59.240 browbeat me easily for years and years and years, and 1:45:59.360 --> 1:46:02.360 then event chually as I became a little more skilled 1:46:02.400 --> 1:46:05.840 at arguing in my late teens. He I think he 1:46:05.920 --> 1:46:07.960 enjoyed it was like it was a sport for him, 1:46:08.000 --> 1:46:09.639 and it actually is a little bit of a sport 1:46:09.680 --> 1:46:11.320 for me now, like I can argue with anyone. I 1:46:11.320 --> 1:46:13.200 don't take it personally. I don't get upset when people 1:46:13.200 --> 1:46:16.080 don't agree with me. I find it really interesting. I 1:46:16.280 --> 1:46:18.719 love to argue, and no one wants to argue anymore. 1:46:21.680 --> 1:46:25.200 It's really when you when you give a contrary opinion, 1:46:25.400 --> 1:46:28.680 it's like spinal tap person. Look, no, my amp goes 1:46:28.760 --> 1:46:31.080 to eleven. I mean, I don't want to do it 1:46:31.479 --> 1:46:36.880 for my own personal aggrandization, whatever aggrandization, whatever the word 1:46:37.000 --> 1:46:39.559 might be. It's it's fun to wrestle and tease out 1:46:39.600 --> 1:46:42.960 the issues and makes me think afterward. But today everyone 1:46:43.040 --> 1:46:45.719 thinks they have the answer. They can't see two different 1:46:45.760 --> 1:46:48.000 sides of the coin, and they're very you. You look 1:46:48.040 --> 1:46:49.560 like the curmudgeon when you go out there and you 1:46:49.640 --> 1:46:52.439 disagree with people. Well, I think there's a couple of 1:46:52.520 --> 1:46:55.960 factors at play. I think some people feel that they 1:46:56.000 --> 1:46:59.720 are not they don't have conviction necessarily and what they believe. Like, no, 1:47:00.240 --> 1:47:02.879 I am wrong all the time, but I do have conviction. 1:47:03.520 --> 1:47:06.960 I believe really strongly and what I believe. And um, 1:47:07.760 --> 1:47:09.920 I think some people get shaken when you disagree with 1:47:10.040 --> 1:47:14.400 them and or they feel like they're losing an argument 1:47:15.000 --> 1:47:17.240 if you even challenge the argument. And they've got this 1:47:17.560 --> 1:47:20.639 some weird idea about how they must win. They must win. 1:47:20.760 --> 1:47:23.240 Society's put all this pressure and must be winners. You 1:47:23.320 --> 1:47:25.599 can't be a loser. I don't mind being a loser. 1:47:26.120 --> 1:47:28.960 I mean that's really well described. But will you change 1:47:29.000 --> 1:47:31.600 your opinion all the time? It makes me crazy if 1:47:31.600 --> 1:47:33.880 you change your opinion because I'm writing my opinions down 1:47:34.240 --> 1:47:37.200 and I say, hey, life evolved. It's like only in Washington, 1:47:37.280 --> 1:47:40.320 d C. You can't change your opinion. So let's go back. 1:47:40.400 --> 1:47:43.920 Your two sisters. Where are they today? My little sister, 1:47:44.400 --> 1:47:46.560 it was how much younger. It's two years younger than me. 1:47:46.680 --> 1:47:49.680 She's down in London doing what she works for a 1:47:49.840 --> 1:47:56.640 photographic agent, so they support photographers in the fashion industry primarily. Um, 1:47:56.840 --> 1:47:59.479 and my big sister is two years older than me. 1:47:59.560 --> 1:48:03.680 It's exact, and like my favor we've got a common here, man, 1:48:04.240 --> 1:48:08.320 I feel your pain. Brother. But my big sister, she 1:48:08.439 --> 1:48:12.320 works in She was an intensive care nurse practically our 1:48:12.360 --> 1:48:15.519 whole career, and now has has sort of semi moved 1:48:15.600 --> 1:48:19.880 into health education. She teaches nurses. Now, are they married 1:48:20.000 --> 1:48:23.640 or in relationships? My oldest sister is in a relationship. 1:48:23.760 --> 1:48:26.200 My youngest sister is married with two kids. Okay, but 1:48:26.320 --> 1:48:29.320 you've never been married, right? I am married? You are married. 1:48:29.320 --> 1:48:31.719 I guess I was unaware. How long have you been married? 1:48:32.040 --> 1:48:34.560 Eight years? Eight years? And is this your only marriage? No, 1:48:34.680 --> 1:48:37.960 this is my second marriage. Okay, we'll save this for later. Okay, 1:48:38.120 --> 1:48:43.639 so you're rebelling. Do you finish school? Not exactly. That's 1:48:43.720 --> 1:48:45.519 kind of a black and white you know, yes or 1:48:45.560 --> 1:48:48.600 no question. Yeah, I didn't get past high school. I 1:48:48.680 --> 1:48:52.560 sort of flunked out in my last I should have 1:48:52.600 --> 1:48:54.280 stayed on for another year and I didn't have flunked 1:48:54.320 --> 1:48:57.560 out and I got really bad examination results, and my 1:48:57.640 --> 1:48:59.840 parents were really disappointed in me, and there was a 1:49:00.200 --> 1:49:04.360 silence over the dinner table at home. Okay, well, here 1:49:04.479 --> 1:49:07.519 the crisis would be, if you drop out of high school, 1:49:07.520 --> 1:49:09.760 you have to go to work. That is correct, My 1:49:09.880 --> 1:49:12.160 dad said that to me, said, okay, you're you know, 1:49:12.320 --> 1:49:14.519 you've crapped out of high school. You need to go 1:49:14.600 --> 1:49:17.280 get yourself a job. And did you did? And what 1:49:17.439 --> 1:49:22.240 was that job? I worked in a female fashion shop, 1:49:22.479 --> 1:49:25.320 a little like Forever twenty one. It was called miss Selfridge. 1:49:26.200 --> 1:49:31.160 And how long did that last? Five years? Five years? 1:49:32.000 --> 1:49:35.479 And any upward any any upward mobility or you're just 1:49:35.640 --> 1:49:38.280 the sales clerk in the shop for five years. I 1:49:38.320 --> 1:49:40.799 don't say this for comic relief. I was actually demoted. 1:49:42.360 --> 1:49:46.320 I started off. I started off as a sales clerk 1:49:47.520 --> 1:49:49.560 what we call the shop assistant, and then I was 1:49:49.640 --> 1:49:52.360 demoted to the stock room because I was unpleasant, quote unquote, 1:49:52.360 --> 1:49:56.960 I was unpleasant to the customers. I love that. I 1:49:57.120 --> 1:50:00.519 love that. So you're unpleasant. But they didn't are they 1:50:00.560 --> 1:50:04.760 didn't fire me. Okay. And at the time, okay, you're 1:50:04.800 --> 1:50:08.599 smoking dope, drinking what are you doing? I was doing 1:50:08.600 --> 1:50:11.320 a lot of speed. That was my drug of choice, 1:50:11.439 --> 1:50:19.120 and I like the feeling of being fast. Okay and okay, 1:50:19.200 --> 1:50:21.960 going back. Was their music in your house growing up? Yeah, 1:50:22.080 --> 1:50:23.360 there was a lot of music in my house. My 1:50:23.439 --> 1:50:27.719 mom was a sort of semi amateur singer. Um semi professional. 1:50:27.800 --> 1:50:30.800 Should I see? She sang with us a swing band 1:50:30.840 --> 1:50:33.200 called the Squadron Ears before I was born, and then 1:50:33.320 --> 1:50:36.960 she used to sing for like weddings and concert parties 1:50:37.000 --> 1:50:39.439 at the church. And hey, you're playing footsie with me, Bob, 1:50:40.160 --> 1:50:43.400 you have a very long I can't believe my legs 1:50:43.439 --> 1:50:45.599 reach that far. The first time this has ever happened 1:50:45.600 --> 1:50:49.679 here on the podcast. But um, I noticed I touched before. 1:50:49.680 --> 1:50:51.960 I didn't even notice that time. But when she was 1:50:52.040 --> 1:50:55.519 professional before you were born, how serious was that? Not 1:50:55.640 --> 1:50:58.439 particularly serious? I mean, my mom got bless her. She 1:50:58.479 --> 1:51:00.519 didn't have a lot of confidence in herself, so nothing 1:51:00.640 --> 1:51:03.720 she did she considered very serious. But she was a 1:51:03.800 --> 1:51:06.280 good singer, and she loved music, and she introduced me 1:51:06.400 --> 1:51:09.200 to music, and my love of music comes from her. Okay, 1:51:09.240 --> 1:51:11.920 so would she play records in the house? What kind 1:51:11.960 --> 1:51:15.679 of records? She introduced me to a lot of like Elephants, Gerald, 1:51:15.720 --> 1:51:19.400 Nina Simon st von Um. She loved Barbara Streisan, she 1:51:19.520 --> 1:51:24.160 loved Barry Manilo, and she loved show tunes. The show 1:51:24.240 --> 1:51:26.120 Too was a similar thing. Growing up. My mother played 1:51:26.160 --> 1:51:30.160 them all the time. But and she is deceased, My 1:51:30.520 --> 1:51:33.120 my mom too, right now, my mother is alive. My 1:51:33.200 --> 1:51:35.800 father's dead, been dead for twenty five years. My mother's 1:51:35.840 --> 1:51:37.880 ninety one. But your mother, based on what you said earlier, 1:51:38.120 --> 1:51:39.800 your mother is no longer with, no longer with How 1:51:39.880 --> 1:51:44.080 long ago did she pass? About nine years ago? Okay? 1:51:44.160 --> 1:51:47.280 Is your father ever got involved in another relationship? Yes, 1:51:47.400 --> 1:51:52.560 he has not. Is he a serial data or is 1:51:52.600 --> 1:51:55.639 that one specific woman. There's been a couple of women 1:51:55.640 --> 1:51:59.000 who's been interested in and is pursued with great passion 1:51:59.120 --> 1:52:01.880 and vigor and has gotten his own way a couple 1:52:01.920 --> 1:52:04.000 of times. And so what do you What does it 1:52:04.200 --> 1:52:06.200 feel like being his daughter? Well, it was funny. I 1:52:06.320 --> 1:52:08.360 was cool with it because I knew my dad loved 1:52:08.360 --> 1:52:10.880 my mom and I knew that, you know, there was 1:52:10.920 --> 1:52:12.639 nothing going to bring my mom back, So I wanted 1:52:12.720 --> 1:52:14.800 my dad to have happiness, so it didn't bother me. 1:52:15.000 --> 1:52:18.080 It creeped me out a wee bit, you know, thinking 1:52:18.080 --> 1:52:20.400 about my dad having an erection was just too much there. 1:52:21.040 --> 1:52:23.200 But I was cool with him having fun in his life. 1:52:23.240 --> 1:52:26.519 I wanted that for him. But my younger sister had 1:52:26.640 --> 1:52:29.320 she wrestled with it the hardest. She she she found 1:52:29.360 --> 1:52:32.040 it difficult to accept. Well, how long after the passing 1:52:32.080 --> 1:52:34.519 of your mother. Did he get started very quickly? And 1:52:34.760 --> 1:52:36.960 was your mother sick or was it a sudden death? Yeah, 1:52:36.960 --> 1:52:39.040 my mom was sick. She had a very rare form 1:52:39.080 --> 1:52:42.680 of dementia, which is called Picks disease um and it 1:52:42.760 --> 1:52:44.400 was very aggressive and sort of took her out the 1:52:44.439 --> 1:52:47.800 game in about eighteen months. My mother's you know, is 1:52:47.880 --> 1:52:52.080 on is on that excursion. So I speak speak with her, 1:52:52.120 --> 1:52:53.920 and she'll go on and on. But whatever I tell 1:52:53.960 --> 1:52:56.840 her today, the next day, it'd be like we didn't 1:52:56.880 --> 1:52:59.160 even discuss. You See, my mom's disease wasn't like that. 1:52:59.400 --> 1:53:01.600 It was a a different kind of it was. She 1:53:02.400 --> 1:53:05.599 sort of became just physically difficult to operate in the world. 1:53:05.680 --> 1:53:07.600 She always knew who I was. She never didn't know 1:53:08.040 --> 1:53:10.440 we were. No. Like I said, it was very aggressive, 1:53:10.880 --> 1:53:13.200 an unusual form of Picks disease, and that the doctor 1:53:13.280 --> 1:53:17.200 in our hometown nobody had ever had an incident of 1:53:17.280 --> 1:53:19.560 this particular type of disease. So she was young. She 1:53:19.680 --> 1:53:22.160 was sixty nine when she was diagnosed, very young. And 1:53:22.320 --> 1:53:26.360 so how long did she go undiagnosed? Well, here's the 1:53:26.400 --> 1:53:28.400 other issue in our families. I knew there was something 1:53:28.439 --> 1:53:30.960 wrong with my mom. My family told me I was crazy. Well, 1:53:31.000 --> 1:53:32.839 I have the same thing with my father got canceled. 1:53:33.320 --> 1:53:34.960 We were having to be in Mammoth Lakes, which is 1:53:34.960 --> 1:53:37.479 a ski area about four hours from Los Angeles, and 1:53:37.560 --> 1:53:39.519 I went out with my father to pick up a pizza, 1:53:40.080 --> 1:53:42.200 and my father's for the whole half hour waiting for 1:53:42.240 --> 1:53:44.720 the pizza, just had his head in his hand, and 1:53:44.760 --> 1:53:46.280 he was coming And I came back and I told 1:53:46.320 --> 1:53:48.519 my mother, oh, you know something wrong with our flashes. Oh, 1:53:48.640 --> 1:53:51.000 he just had a physical. He's fine, he's fine. And 1:53:51.080 --> 1:53:54.000 a week later they found out the cancer. I'm so sorry. 1:53:54.240 --> 1:53:55.679 Well it was a long time ago. At this point, 1:53:55.800 --> 1:53:59.320 it doesn't it's always painful to lose your loved ones. Well, 1:53:59.479 --> 1:54:03.040 my father I had at seventy and when he died, 1:54:03.560 --> 1:54:05.880 I was not quite forty, and I thought, oh, that's 1:54:05.880 --> 1:54:08.599 a pretty good run. But now I say, wow, that's 1:54:08.640 --> 1:54:12.960 really young. Really, so there's music in the household. At 1:54:13.040 --> 1:54:15.439 what point do you start to sing or play yourself. 1:54:16.120 --> 1:54:19.320 I was playing really young because my mom and dad 1:54:19.400 --> 1:54:22.200 got me into piano lessons on singing in an ac choir. 1:54:22.360 --> 1:54:24.559 So that was around about seven years old. Did you practice, 1:54:25.000 --> 1:54:27.439 did I? No? No, no, I don't think the piano 1:54:27.560 --> 1:54:30.599 lessons too, But the practicing was the weakling. I found 1:54:30.640 --> 1:54:33.160 it very hard to practice anything, and that has continued 1:54:33.160 --> 1:54:36.520 throughout my entire life. I'm very lax about rehearsing and 1:54:36.800 --> 1:54:40.120 practicing and and actually being a good student in that regard. 1:54:40.800 --> 1:54:43.320 But yeah, I was singing and playing by about seven, 1:54:43.480 --> 1:54:46.040 and that just continued through my life. My school picked 1:54:46.080 --> 1:54:48.760 me out to like learn the violin, the clarinet, playing 1:54:48.800 --> 1:54:52.280 the school orchestra. Can you read music even at this 1:54:52.400 --> 1:54:54.280 late day, you haven't forgotten it? Now, you don't forget 1:54:54.360 --> 1:54:57.400 that people claim to forgotten that, Billy Joel whatever. But 1:54:57.680 --> 1:55:00.520 as someone who could read music basically, then occasion I'll 1:55:00.560 --> 1:55:02.840 sit down at the piano and then I look at 1:55:02.880 --> 1:55:05.320 the bass cliff and I go, there's no way. See, 1:55:05.320 --> 1:55:06.920 it's funny you should say that because it's always the 1:55:06.920 --> 1:55:09.480 bass cliff cliff that is the hardest one to remember. 1:55:09.520 --> 1:55:10.920 But if you just play for a wee bit, it 1:55:11.000 --> 1:55:15.040 comes back. So you're playing it at this point, do 1:55:15.120 --> 1:55:17.560 you ever have an light bulb go off and say 1:55:17.640 --> 1:55:19.840 this is what I'd like to do from my life? Never? 1:55:20.520 --> 1:55:24.760 So what changes you know? This? This is a bit 1:55:24.800 --> 1:55:26.760 of a long on boding story I've told a million times, 1:55:26.840 --> 1:55:30.600 but nothing ever changed, Nothing ever changed. No, I stumbled 1:55:30.640 --> 1:55:34.080 from pillar to post literally as my entire That is 1:55:34.120 --> 1:55:37.320 certainly a Scottish expression. No one in America is going 1:55:37.360 --> 1:55:39.200 to say pillar to post. Okay, well, but you get 1:55:39.240 --> 1:55:41.240 the express, the idea. I know what you said, but 1:55:41.440 --> 1:55:45.080 you know, I just haven't heard the expression. But nothing 1:55:45.160 --> 1:55:47.560 in my life has ever been planned. I have my 1:55:47.880 --> 1:55:51.600 My entire career has been made up of stumbling from 1:55:51.680 --> 1:55:54.520 one place to the next and no plan, no real 1:55:54.800 --> 1:55:57.400 solid ambition. Although my dad claims that that's not true. 1:55:57.600 --> 1:56:00.960 But I don't remember having any major ambition to do 1:56:01.120 --> 1:56:03.640 much except be a ballerina. That's what I really burned 1:56:03.680 --> 1:56:05.440 to do. Then I couldn't do that because I got 1:56:05.480 --> 1:56:07.440 too tall and I hurt my ankle. So then I 1:56:07.480 --> 1:56:09.440 wanted to be an actress. This is it? What age? 1:56:09.480 --> 1:56:13.840 What age? Do you hurt your ankle? I was. It's 1:56:13.840 --> 1:56:17.360 a good question. Eleven. Then you want to be an actor? 1:56:17.960 --> 1:56:19.960 Do you act on that? Do you actually act? In 1:56:20.000 --> 1:56:23.360 school places? I had a drama teacher that took great 1:56:23.400 --> 1:56:25.640 interest in me and got me out into Edinburgh. You 1:56:25.720 --> 1:56:28.360 theater outside of the school as well. She encouraged me 1:56:28.440 --> 1:56:31.680 to like audition for drama school, and so and so forth. 1:56:32.000 --> 1:56:34.800 I didn't get into drama school. And that's summer that 1:56:34.840 --> 1:56:37.200 I didn't get into drama school. I got approached by 1:56:37.840 --> 1:56:39.920 this guy that I had met at Edinburgh Theater who 1:56:39.960 --> 1:56:43.840 needed a keyboard player in his band. And because you know, 1:56:44.360 --> 1:56:47.040 I've been living in l a long enough, doesn't just happen. 1:56:47.760 --> 1:56:51.440 So how was he aware that you played the keyboard? Well, 1:56:51.440 --> 1:56:53.360 I think he maybe asked me. He was very interested 1:56:53.400 --> 1:56:57.520 in me sexually. Okay, that's straightforward. He was more interested 1:56:57.560 --> 1:57:00.839 in me, I think, sexually than he was by musical skills. 1:57:00.960 --> 1:57:03.040 But he knew I played pianos so and he knew 1:57:03.280 --> 1:57:06.280 he could lure me into his band to play keyboards. 1:57:06.680 --> 1:57:08.800 But you have to say yes. I didn't have to 1:57:08.840 --> 1:57:11.680 see yes. You did say yes. I did. So what 1:57:11.920 --> 1:57:14.640 was your inspiration for saying yes? Because I've just been 1:57:14.680 --> 1:57:18.880 rejected from drama college, so I had nothing else to do, 1:57:19.040 --> 1:57:21.760 and so for want of some entertainment in my life, 1:57:21.800 --> 1:57:23.840 I joined the band. And this was at what age 1:57:24.760 --> 1:57:28.040 fifteen or sixteen? Okay, so you go and you have 1:57:28.240 --> 1:57:31.080 this band, what kind of music you play? Well? You 1:57:31.120 --> 1:57:35.560 would call it alternative pop rock. Okay, we're the originals 1:57:35.640 --> 1:57:38.680 were playing? Was on the hip parade? They were originals. 1:57:39.560 --> 1:57:41.440 I can't ask me if they were on the hip three. 1:57:41.520 --> 1:57:43.520 That is the cutest thing I've ever been asked. I 1:57:43.640 --> 1:57:47.680 think so they were originals. And in the United States, 1:57:47.720 --> 1:57:50.440 which is my frame of reference, it's very hard to 1:57:50.520 --> 1:57:55.080 get work being an upstart band playing originals. So did 1:57:55.120 --> 1:57:57.200 you get gigs with this band? We did get gigs. 1:57:57.240 --> 1:57:59.400 You know. We were lucky that we marriage from Scotland, 1:57:59.440 --> 1:58:02.720 which had all music scene, and so we'd be pretty fast. 1:58:02.800 --> 1:58:05.560 Became quite large fish in a very small poem. Well 1:58:05.640 --> 1:58:07.600 that would you know, seem to say that you were good? 1:58:07.840 --> 1:58:11.120 We were good? So why were you good? We were 1:58:11.520 --> 1:58:14.720 really unique, really original, Like we were like no other 1:58:14.840 --> 1:58:17.000 band I have ever seen in my life. I mean, 1:58:17.080 --> 1:58:21.440 we were a right bunch of Motley crew. Um. We 1:58:21.560 --> 1:58:27.800 were quite rebellious and we we're just very committed to 1:58:28.080 --> 1:58:31.840 putting on good shoes. So I have to ask, did 1:58:31.880 --> 1:58:34.760 you ear a romantic partnership with that guy who asked you? Yes? 1:58:34.840 --> 1:58:37.360 I did. Okay. How long did that last? I don't know, 1:58:37.440 --> 1:58:40.160 about six months, I think. Okay, when that ended did 1:58:40.200 --> 1:58:45.280 the band break up? The band? The band survived, So 1:58:45.400 --> 1:58:47.440 how long did the band go on? For? Ten years? 1:58:48.000 --> 1:58:53.320 And the name of that band was Goodbye, Mr Mackenzie. Okay, 1:58:53.440 --> 1:58:56.560 Well return to this conversation with Trulie Manson of Garbage 1:58:56.760 --> 1:59:02.400 in a moment. You're listening to the Bomb Left Sets podcast, 1:59:02.480 --> 1:59:06.280 recorded at the tune In Studios in Venice, California. Each week, 1:59:06.320 --> 1:59:08.520 I interview a new guest and dive into their lives 1:59:08.560 --> 1:59:11.960 and careers. If you enjoy listening to the podcast, subscribe, 1:59:12.360 --> 1:59:14.920 rate and review the show. Please also check out some 1:59:14.960 --> 1:59:17.839 of the earlier episodes, like my conversation with Nancy Wilson 1:59:18.080 --> 1:59:21.640 of the band Heart and famous skateboarder Tony Hawk. You 1:59:21.720 --> 1:59:24.040 can hear them all on tune in the Apple podcast 1:59:24.200 --> 1:59:27.160 or your podcast player of choice. And now more with 1:59:27.280 --> 1:59:32.240 Shirley Manson. So when you're in Goodbye, Mr Mackenzie, are 1:59:32.320 --> 1:59:34.320 you for five years you still working in the shop? 1:59:34.440 --> 1:59:37.760 You are correct? Okay? At what point when you stop 1:59:37.880 --> 1:59:40.280 working in the shop, are you living off the money 1:59:40.680 --> 1:59:43.800 from the band or are you have to get another 1:59:43.880 --> 1:59:46.920 day job. I'm living off my day job. Okay, but 1:59:47.000 --> 1:59:50.800 after they after working in the shop, excuse me, then 1:59:51.480 --> 1:59:55.600 I barely existed off money from the band, barely. Okay, 1:59:55.800 --> 1:59:57.960 still living at your parents? Hum, still living at my parents. 1:59:58.120 --> 2:00:00.400 You know, in America things have changed. But in my era, 2:00:00.840 --> 2:00:02.200 once you got out of high school, parents said you 2:00:02.240 --> 2:00:03.960 gotta get out of the house, and of course you 2:00:04.000 --> 2:00:06.640 could afford to live somewhere on a minimum wage. Now 2:00:06.680 --> 2:00:08.560 it's just the opposite. I can't afford to living where 2:00:08.560 --> 2:00:10.520 I'm minimum wage, and people want their kids, and people 2:00:10.600 --> 2:00:12.840 do move back. So what did your parents think, You're 2:00:12.840 --> 2:00:15.080 getting older and older still living in their house. My 2:00:15.240 --> 2:00:19.440 mom wanted me so there was It was never even discussed. Really, 2:00:19.520 --> 2:00:22.600 so she did made all your meals, clean your clothes. 2:00:22.760 --> 2:00:24.360 No at that point, I mean I was an adult 2:00:24.400 --> 2:00:26.920 by that point, but no, she she wanted her children 2:00:26.960 --> 2:00:29.120 amongst her for as long as she could possibly have them, 2:00:29.120 --> 2:00:32.000 and my dad didn't dare question that. Okay, so you're 2:00:32.040 --> 2:00:36.320 in the band for ten years. That's a long period 2:00:36.360 --> 2:00:37.960 of time and it takes a long time to make it. 2:00:38.400 --> 2:00:41.320 But at that time, do you have a fantasy of 2:00:41.520 --> 2:00:44.720 this being a gig in stardom or you just doing it. 2:00:45.040 --> 2:00:47.120 I'm doing it because I really loved it. I mean 2:00:47.440 --> 2:00:50.320 in retrospect. I really did love it, and I wasn't 2:00:50.360 --> 2:00:53.680 looking to be rich. I knew it sort of deep down, 2:00:53.680 --> 2:00:55.160 and I was like, we're never going to be rich, 2:00:55.280 --> 2:00:58.240 We're never going to be hugely successful. But I really 2:00:58.360 --> 2:01:00.720 love doing what I get to do. And we traveled 2:01:00.760 --> 2:01:01.960 a lot, so it was the first time I got 2:01:02.040 --> 2:01:05.000 to go to mainland Europe, go to France, go to Germany, 2:01:05.120 --> 2:01:07.040 go to Holland. I mean, I went all over the 2:01:07.120 --> 2:01:09.720 place with this band. So that was exciting to me. 2:01:09.800 --> 2:01:13.800 And it was enough that of course begs the question 2:01:13.840 --> 2:01:17.400 which you maybe get into later. You're you're touring at 2:01:17.440 --> 2:01:20.360 a relatively low level, and what's it like being a 2:01:20.440 --> 2:01:24.320 woman on the road. You know. I didn't really think 2:01:24.360 --> 2:01:26.640 about it too much because in my very first band 2:01:27.520 --> 2:01:30.280 it was very eglitarian, and the Scots in general are 2:01:30.400 --> 2:01:33.280 pretty like, even in a funny way, in a different 2:01:33.360 --> 2:01:36.800 way that men and women are much more sort of 2:01:36.960 --> 2:01:40.440 equal in Scottish society in some ways, and I'm not 2:01:40.640 --> 2:01:42.600 entirely sure why, and this is the first time that's 2:01:42.600 --> 2:01:44.360 ever come out of my mouth. I'm just sort of speaking. 2:01:45.520 --> 2:01:49.360 But it never was an issue. Sexism was never in 2:01:49.480 --> 2:01:52.280 my mind an issue. However, looking back on it too, 2:01:52.640 --> 2:01:54.280 I wasn't one of the writers in the band. It 2:01:54.400 --> 2:01:56.960 was two male members who kept all the writing to 2:01:57.040 --> 2:02:00.560 themselves and never invited anybody else into the right dynamics. 2:02:00.640 --> 2:02:03.560 So they were the pirate seat. And I just didn't 2:02:03.680 --> 2:02:05.920 care about money back then, and I didn't care about 2:02:06.240 --> 2:02:09.080 power back then, or I didn't even speak in those terms. 2:02:09.160 --> 2:02:12.360 I just was having fun and that was enough really, 2:02:12.480 --> 2:02:15.440 So there were no ultimate goals down the road. None. 2:02:16.760 --> 2:02:20.680 It's kind of funny there. It's a fascinating thing because 2:02:20.680 --> 2:02:23.120 there's a book called You Just Don't Understand, and it 2:02:23.160 --> 2:02:26.120 sounds like a self help book written by this PhD. 2:02:26.280 --> 2:02:30.080 Deborah Tannin, who studies language, and she says, men are 2:02:30.120 --> 2:02:32.880 all about the pecking order, okay, and I'm trying to 2:02:33.000 --> 2:02:35.400 rise to the top where women are about the community. 2:02:35.480 --> 2:02:37.640 Like if a guy loses his job, he loses his 2:02:37.760 --> 2:02:40.320 identity where she would say a woman. And of course 2:02:40.320 --> 2:02:42.440 there're exceptions to all this. Well, this is where I 2:02:42.480 --> 2:02:44.440 am now, this is where I'll be tomorrow, and I'm 2:02:44.560 --> 2:02:46.880 just enjoying what I'm doing now. Yeah, I mean again, 2:02:46.920 --> 2:02:50.360 like you say, there's there's they're sweeping generalizations right in 2:02:50.360 --> 2:02:53.720 this exceptions to all the rules, but in this case, yeah, 2:02:53.760 --> 2:02:56.960 I think I had been taught from a very early 2:02:57.000 --> 2:03:01.880 age basically just to be in the clan system, and 2:03:02.000 --> 2:03:05.000 wherever your seat was in that system was your seat. 2:03:05.840 --> 2:03:08.520 I just accepted my seat. Now that's changed as I've 2:03:08.520 --> 2:03:11.000 gotten older, I started to fight for my own seat 2:03:11.400 --> 2:03:13.280 and the seat that I want. But back then I 2:03:13.480 --> 2:03:17.760 was very sort of submissive, I guess. So the band 2:03:17.800 --> 2:03:22.560 goes on for ten years, what to what degree is 2:03:22.600 --> 2:03:26.520 it successful by worldwide standards? Well, we got signed by 2:03:26.520 --> 2:03:28.600 a large label. We got signed by My Records and 2:03:28.680 --> 2:03:32.200 Capital Records, and we started bounced between those two labels, 2:03:32.400 --> 2:03:34.480 and we've got a big advance, but that all went 2:03:34.520 --> 2:03:36.320 to the writing partners. I didn't see any of that. 2:03:37.040 --> 2:03:38.880 But we did get a big advance, and there was 2:03:38.880 --> 2:03:42.640 a great buzz on the band, and we charted very briefly, um, 2:03:43.160 --> 2:03:45.960 which was enough to sustain us to keep trying and 2:03:46.040 --> 2:03:49.120 trying and trying for years. How many records did you 2:03:49.200 --> 2:03:52.800 make in that under that moniker? Well, I think I 2:03:52.960 --> 2:03:56.560 did four, but after you left they did more. They 2:03:56.600 --> 2:03:59.640 did another two. I think. Okay, so you did those 2:03:59.720 --> 2:04:03.240 four and then you made a solo record under not 2:04:03.440 --> 2:04:06.600 your own name. Correct, Although the so so called solo 2:04:06.680 --> 2:04:10.200 record was really just a recalibration of Goodbye Mr. Mackenzie, 2:04:10.200 --> 2:04:12.040 which was my first band. I E, the lead singer 2:04:12.040 --> 2:04:15.040 of Goodbye Ms. Mackenzie, stepped back and I took over 2:04:15.120 --> 2:04:18.320 lead vocals because we had gone to Berlin to make 2:04:18.360 --> 2:04:21.640 a record Berlin. That's funny. I know what you're talking about, 2:04:21.640 --> 2:04:23.760 but my brain had a percolade Verson sorry, excuse me, 2:04:24.600 --> 2:04:28.360 why Berlin this? I don't know what year this was in? 2:04:28.680 --> 2:04:30.760 What is it with the UK? I mean, you know, 2:04:31.000 --> 2:04:35.720 Actung Baby? You two went to uh Berlin, went to Berlin? 2:04:36.440 --> 2:04:39.680 Why Berlin? Well, David Boye went to Berlin, and therefore 2:04:40.440 --> 2:04:43.800 everybody else wanted to go there, And interestingly enough, Acting 2:04:43.880 --> 2:04:46.600 Baby was being recorded enhance the studios at the same 2:04:46.640 --> 2:04:48.880 time that we were there, and so we were all 2:04:48.880 --> 2:04:50.880 there when the wall came down, and it was we 2:04:50.960 --> 2:04:53.240 were literally there when the wall We were literally was 2:04:53.320 --> 2:04:56.320 that like crazy? Literally somebody just called us something went 2:04:56.480 --> 2:04:58.320 where are you right now? We're like, we're in the studio. 2:04:58.520 --> 2:04:59.840 It's like you need to get to the wall there 2:05:00.000 --> 2:05:02.760 going it down right now? There was that quick. I 2:05:02.800 --> 2:05:04.680 have a piece of the wall in my home in Scotland, 2:05:05.520 --> 2:05:08.240 and so was there any once you went out to 2:05:08.280 --> 2:05:11.160 the wall. Was there any fear? No? Was it just excitement. 2:05:11.360 --> 2:05:14.280 Everybody was really excited and it was crazy. Well, when 2:05:14.320 --> 2:05:17.040 I went to Berlin, as you say, and you're there 2:05:17.080 --> 2:05:19.600 in the wall that still remains. On one side is 2:05:19.640 --> 2:05:22.640 the bunker. On the west side is where you know, 2:05:22.840 --> 2:05:25.400 underground where Hitler was. On the other side you see 2:05:25.440 --> 2:05:27.800 where they're the buildings where they wouldn't let people live 2:05:27.960 --> 2:05:29.960 because they were afraid. The first they were using ropes 2:05:30.040 --> 2:05:32.320 to go over the wall. I mean, you get this 2:05:32.520 --> 2:05:35.760 really heavy feeling. It's really scary. I mean, when I 2:05:35.840 --> 2:05:39.000 first went to Berlin, you know, Checkpoint Charlie was still 2:05:39.040 --> 2:05:41.320 operating and we still had to cross through it to 2:05:41.360 --> 2:05:44.000 get to East Berlin, you know, and East Berlin had nothing. 2:05:44.280 --> 2:05:45.720 You know, you go to East Berlin now and it's 2:05:45.760 --> 2:05:48.680 like any affluent part of Europe, but back then it 2:05:48.880 --> 2:05:50.920 was it was grim and there wasn't much there and 2:05:51.000 --> 2:05:53.680 people were really struggling. So when you're in Berlin record 2:05:53.680 --> 2:05:56.840 you would go to East Berlin with just to see 2:05:56.880 --> 2:05:58.760 what's going on. But we went there to see what's 2:05:58.760 --> 2:06:01.280 going on there, and because of an incredibly hip kind 2:06:01.320 --> 2:06:03.160 of scene there, you know, because it was forbidden, and 2:06:03.200 --> 2:06:06.640 anything forbidden people won't right, So you make the record 2:06:06.720 --> 2:06:11.320 in Berlin because the lead singer was whacked or burned 2:06:11.400 --> 2:06:15.400 out or kicked out, not none of the above. Good 2:06:15.400 --> 2:06:18.440 Bye Ms. Mackenzie went to Hansa to to record a record, 2:06:18.560 --> 2:06:21.360 and we just got lost in a frenzy of partying. 2:06:22.400 --> 2:06:25.920 And we spent our entire recording advance on having fun. 2:06:26.320 --> 2:06:29.040 And then when we came back we had nothing to 2:06:29.080 --> 2:06:31.000 show for it. We hadn't we had no finished music 2:06:31.120 --> 2:06:35.200 or anything. I can't remember a good idea. So you 2:06:35.280 --> 2:06:37.320 blow all the money. Record companies don't like that. They 2:06:37.440 --> 2:06:39.560 hated that, so they dropped the band. But they held 2:06:39.680 --> 2:06:42.080 up like the head of the record label said, I 2:06:42.240 --> 2:06:44.200 love you. I think you're amazing, and you could do 2:06:44.280 --> 2:06:46.240 something on your own. Call me when you get your 2:06:46.280 --> 2:06:49.720 ship together. Okay, but you were not the lead vocalist 2:06:49.720 --> 2:06:52.440 at good Bye, Mr Mackenzie. So why did this person? 2:06:52.880 --> 2:06:56.840 It was just your overall charisma that he felt. I 2:06:57.000 --> 2:06:58.880 don't know, I've never stopped to think about it other 2:06:58.960 --> 2:07:01.480 than he to me. You know, he was a really 2:07:02.160 --> 2:07:04.360 amazing person. Actually, his name is Gary Carr first, and 2:07:04.440 --> 2:07:08.360 he was I know, Gary unfortunately is not with us, unfortunately, 2:07:08.640 --> 2:07:11.920 but he was. Uh. He had his own label, radio 2:07:12.000 --> 2:07:14.400 Active for m c A. And he was a big 2:07:14.520 --> 2:07:19.000 manager of the Talking Heads and exactly, but he was 2:07:19.040 --> 2:07:22.760 in New York. How did he find you in London? Oh? Gods. 2:07:23.600 --> 2:07:26.840 We had opened Gobamis mackenzie had opened for for Debbie 2:07:26.880 --> 2:07:30.920 Harry's solo tour in the UK during the eighties, and 2:07:31.240 --> 2:07:33.640 he had met me there and just liked me. He's like, 2:07:33.680 --> 2:07:36.480 you're funny, You've got charisma, your star. He kept on. 2:07:36.600 --> 2:07:38.920 So he was always like, you're a star. So and 2:07:39.200 --> 2:07:41.760 and he just as a result, he then fell in 2:07:41.800 --> 2:07:44.240 love with Obamis Ckenzie signed Obamas Mackenzie and then when 2:07:44.240 --> 2:07:46.640 he dropped Obamers Ckenzie, he was like, I want you 2:07:47.360 --> 2:07:48.800 let me know what you're gonna do. Okay, So how 2:07:48.880 --> 2:07:50.440 long did you go home before you say I'm ready 2:07:50.480 --> 2:07:52.960 to call Gary again? I can't remember. I do know 2:07:53.120 --> 2:07:56.680 that eventually everyone in the band, having been dropped, realized 2:07:56.760 --> 2:07:59.640 this was our only only solution, which was and and 2:07:59.720 --> 2:08:02.120 there's no thought in your brain, Hey, this doesn't work, 2:08:02.120 --> 2:08:04.720 I'm gonna leave the band behind. No, because I wasn't 2:08:04.760 --> 2:08:06.840 fit for anything. I didn't. I didn't have any calls. 2:08:07.000 --> 2:08:09.600 But I mean, you didn't say, Okay, this Gary thinks 2:08:09.640 --> 2:08:11.960 I'm a star. I'm gonna make a deal and leave 2:08:12.000 --> 2:08:13.840 the rest of the band members behind. No, that's not 2:08:13.920 --> 2:08:17.160 my style. I'm kitde loyal, okay, And I didn't want 2:08:17.160 --> 2:08:19.200 to leave my band in the shitter, okay. But all 2:08:19.200 --> 2:08:21.720 of a sudden, how do you become the singer? I 2:08:21.800 --> 2:08:24.160 don't know. I mean, it's it's so smudgy now and 2:08:24.280 --> 2:08:27.240 trying to remember our hazy memories. But I think just 2:08:27.680 --> 2:08:29.960 the whole band were like, let's put Shirley and lead 2:08:30.040 --> 2:08:33.640 vocals and will recalibrate and we'll survive as a different entity. 2:08:34.080 --> 2:08:35.880 And we all thought in practice we could do that. 2:08:36.000 --> 2:08:38.560 As it turns out, the male members of the band 2:08:38.600 --> 2:08:40.960 couldn't really hack the fact that I became the sort 2:08:41.000 --> 2:08:43.320 of focal point of the band, and and all the 2:08:43.400 --> 2:08:46.440 business started like Gary would run all business through me. 2:08:46.760 --> 2:08:50.880 Having been burned by good Mackenzie in Berlin, he was like, 2:08:51.000 --> 2:08:54.440 you're now in charge, you're responsible. I will only communicate 2:08:54.520 --> 2:08:58.839 with you. So that's kind of how it how it happened. 2:08:58.880 --> 2:09:01.520 And I made a record with Chris Franz and Tina 2:09:01.560 --> 2:09:04.400 Weymouth of the Talking Heads, because they were got his clients. 2:09:04.480 --> 2:09:06.960 And okay, a little bit slower you made her. I 2:09:07.040 --> 2:09:09.640 thought you made a record with the remnants of Goodbye. 2:09:10.080 --> 2:09:13.480 I did, but Chris and Tina were producing. Chris now 2:09:13.600 --> 2:09:17.920 lives in my hometown. I hear from an irregular basis. Yes, 2:09:18.400 --> 2:09:22.600 so fair Field, Connecticut. So how how do you are you? 2:09:22.680 --> 2:09:25.880 Were you happy with what transpired when those sessions? I 2:09:26.000 --> 2:09:28.320 was freaked out. But it was such an honor for 2:09:28.400 --> 2:09:30.080 me to work with Christ and Tina. I mean, I 2:09:30.200 --> 2:09:33.080 can't even put that into words. It was so extraordinary 2:09:33.240 --> 2:09:37.720 for me, and I was I was proud of what 2:09:37.920 --> 2:09:42.440 we've accomplished, you know. And uh, at that point, you 2:09:42.480 --> 2:09:46.320 were the singer, were you also the writer? Nope? And 2:09:46.440 --> 2:09:50.680 so the two guys from Goodbye also continue to write 2:09:50.720 --> 2:09:52.920 the songs. They continued to write the songs. Like I said, 2:09:52.960 --> 2:09:55.520 it was just a recalibration of goodby Ms mackenzie. Just 2:09:55.600 --> 2:09:58.240 in order to survive, we had me do the the 2:09:59.000 --> 2:10:02.080 take over the book, but the writing partnership remained the same. 2:10:02.320 --> 2:10:05.040 And the record comes out and then one and then 2:10:05.120 --> 2:10:09.040 we go on tour with Vic Chestnut and Life Chestnut. Yeah, 2:10:10.440 --> 2:10:14.160 that's quite a bill. That's an amazing bill. Actually, I 2:10:14.280 --> 2:10:15.920 fell in love with Vic and he fell in love 2:10:16.000 --> 2:10:19.040 with me, and we had a love fest. But well, 2:10:19.160 --> 2:10:22.360 Vic Chestnut was in a wheelchair, he was he was apparent. Yeah, 2:10:22.400 --> 2:10:23.960 so I have to ask that you said we had 2:10:24.000 --> 2:10:26.720 a love fest. Was this a physical love fest? No, 2:10:26.960 --> 2:10:32.640 just admiration. Yeah, yeah, we just got we hit it off, 2:10:32.800 --> 2:10:37.560 you know. Okay, he committed suicide, very strange. Yeah, okay, 2:10:37.640 --> 2:10:40.600 so you go on tour that that bill. We go 2:10:40.680 --> 2:10:44.680 on to her and, um, the band is sort of 2:10:44.720 --> 2:10:47.560 falling apart already because the boys are just are not 2:10:47.720 --> 2:10:50.080 happy with the Paris structure at this point, which I 2:10:50.160 --> 2:10:53.600 totally understand. Why should you understand? Well, I don't know, 2:10:53.760 --> 2:10:57.000 but I did, And but I was having fun. You know, 2:10:57.120 --> 2:10:58.840 I was going on to in America for the first time. 2:10:58.840 --> 2:11:01.160 I've never been to Americans sure, so to like travel 2:11:01.280 --> 2:11:03.800 all over America in a van was one of the 2:11:03.880 --> 2:11:06.600 most extraordinary experiences of my life. You know, it's across 2:11:06.640 --> 2:11:09.040 the desert in a band. Well, the funny things I 2:11:09.120 --> 2:11:11.240 grew up in the seventies, that was the dream to 2:11:11.360 --> 2:11:14.080 drive across country and now everybody flies. People don't even 2:11:14.120 --> 2:11:16.080 do that, which is sad because it really is an 2:11:16.120 --> 2:11:19.320 extraordinary way to see. So we did that, and then 2:11:19.480 --> 2:11:22.560 Rolling Stone picked up on us and sort of lauded 2:11:22.680 --> 2:11:25.280 us as like what one to watch And that was 2:11:25.480 --> 2:11:27.160 the final straw for my band. They were like, we're 2:11:27.200 --> 2:11:29.760 going home. We can't hack this anymore. And I kid 2:11:29.880 --> 2:11:32.800 you not. That very day I had gotten a phone 2:11:32.840 --> 2:11:36.600 call from my future band saying, would you be interested 2:11:36.760 --> 2:11:40.960 in meeting up with Butch vig Um about singing on 2:11:41.120 --> 2:11:43.600 a possibly singing on one of like a project that 2:11:43.640 --> 2:11:46.520 he's working on. Literally the same day the bands were 2:11:46.560 --> 2:11:50.800 calling it quits. Yes, okay, are you still friends with 2:11:50.880 --> 2:11:54.280 the band members of Goodbye Mr Mackenzie? Now? I am, yeah, 2:11:54.360 --> 2:11:56.480 but we have it was it was very difficult. It 2:11:56.600 --> 2:12:00.600 became very complex, and it was different called for Martin 2:12:00.640 --> 2:12:02.720 and the lead singer in particular, to like, I think 2:12:02.880 --> 2:12:05.000 process what had happened not only to him but to 2:12:05.120 --> 2:12:07.920 me too. But yeah, and now we're friends, and what 2:12:08.000 --> 2:12:10.080 do they do? There is still in a band that 2:12:10.160 --> 2:12:12.920 are called the Filthy Tongues. They are actually really great 2:12:13.520 --> 2:12:15.760 and they can make a living being the Filthy Tongues. 2:12:15.920 --> 2:12:19.200 I don't know if they make a living, but there 2:12:19.240 --> 2:12:23.560 are songwriters. They also work with Um the Skids. They 2:12:23.680 --> 2:12:26.840 just helped co write that last Skids record, the fourth 2:12:26.880 --> 2:12:30.480 anniversary of The Skids, Um Richard Jobson's band. And you 2:12:30.560 --> 2:12:33.280 know they do okay, and they're they're they're there. I'm 2:12:33.280 --> 2:12:36.200 proud of them. But they were resentful for a long yeah, 2:12:37.240 --> 2:12:40.040 just like ten or twenty years worth. Okay. So you 2:12:40.120 --> 2:12:42.280 get this call from Butch Vig and you think, what, Well, 2:12:42.360 --> 2:12:44.360 now you already know you're being as a band into you, 2:12:44.480 --> 2:12:47.320 so you're up for anything. Your loyalty has been canned. Yeah, 2:12:47.400 --> 2:12:49.440 I didn't have to question my own loyalty, thank god, 2:12:49.480 --> 2:12:51.800 because that would have been very difficult because I've already 2:12:51.920 --> 2:12:55.480 met Booch And and Garbage in London for a quick 2:12:55.520 --> 2:12:58.640 meeting where they had wanted, you know, so convoluted a story, 2:12:58.720 --> 2:13:01.280 but I had met them in Don a few months 2:13:01.360 --> 2:13:04.000 to going on tour in America and we had liked 2:13:04.040 --> 2:13:06.080 each other and that and then the day that my 2:13:06.200 --> 2:13:08.680 band quit was the day Duke Errickson called me. I 2:13:08.760 --> 2:13:11.880 was in Asbury Park in a hotel room, crying and 2:13:11.920 --> 2:13:14.000 I get the phone call from Duke Krickson saying, hey, 2:13:14.040 --> 2:13:17.000 are you interested in coming up for an addition? I 2:13:17.080 --> 2:13:20.640 was like, as a matter of fact, yes I am. Okay, 2:13:20.800 --> 2:13:22.720 but when you meet them in London, is it just 2:13:22.880 --> 2:13:25.960 social or are they checking you out? There? Checking me out? 2:13:26.520 --> 2:13:29.080 And did you know that at that time? Okay? But 2:13:29.200 --> 2:13:31.000 I the way they had approached me was would you 2:13:31.080 --> 2:13:33.680 send one song on booch Figs project. I was like, yeah, 2:13:33.840 --> 2:13:35.880 of course, I didn't feel that question my loyalty or 2:13:35.880 --> 2:13:38.040 anything like that. Okay, so you go for the audition 2:13:38.520 --> 2:13:40.640 and you don't have anything else going on, nothing, so 2:13:40.760 --> 2:13:42.919 you must have been pretty anxious. I was very anxious. 2:13:43.080 --> 2:13:45.640 I was so anxious that I completely messed up the addition. 2:13:45.720 --> 2:13:48.280 It was a disaster. But then we all went out 2:13:48.320 --> 2:13:50.200 to drink afterwards, and of course we got on like 2:13:50.240 --> 2:13:51.920 a house on fire, and we had such a laugh 2:13:52.760 --> 2:13:56.800 that I went home to Scotland having had a disastrous edition. 2:13:57.200 --> 2:14:00.320 Um and something about I guess the way we had 2:14:00.560 --> 2:14:03.280 all gotten along sort of pushed us to have a 2:14:03.400 --> 2:14:07.720 second edition. And okay, so did they agree the audition sucked? 2:14:07.840 --> 2:14:10.120 They did? What was bad about it? Have you ever 2:14:10.160 --> 2:14:13.800 seen shreds? Do you know what I mean by shreds? Okay, well, 2:14:14.360 --> 2:14:17.040 shreds is a thing that you can go on YouTube 2:14:17.200 --> 2:14:19.440 and like, let's say it's Radiohead singing one of their 2:14:19.480 --> 2:14:22.840 famous songs. Somebody like you. You watch a video radio 2:14:22.880 --> 2:14:24.640 Head singing one of their most famous songs, but then 2:14:24.680 --> 2:14:27.120 they've re recorded a different audio over the top of it, 2:14:27.800 --> 2:14:32.840 and it's like that, Well, that's what my audition was like. 2:14:32.960 --> 2:14:35.480 It was like shreds. So you couldn't I wasn't even 2:14:35.600 --> 2:14:37.880 articulating any words because I was so nervous and so 2:14:38.000 --> 2:14:42.360 embarrassed that it was just awful. How long was it 2:14:42.400 --> 2:14:45.000 between the first and second auditions, I don't know, maybe 2:14:45.080 --> 2:14:48.440 three months, a long time. And during that period you've 2:14:48.440 --> 2:14:51.560 got nothing. I got nothing, Okay, so you go back 2:14:51.600 --> 2:14:56.160 in the second audition is great, It is okay. Now 2:14:57.080 --> 2:14:59.360 these are guys you know. Butch Vig had a huge 2:14:59.720 --> 2:15:04.320 stud vidio career. But did you believe this was an opportunity? 2:15:04.560 --> 2:15:07.360 But did any it ended up becoming an instant success. 2:15:08.040 --> 2:15:11.919 But did you have any idea that's what would happen? No, none, whatsoever. 2:15:12.080 --> 2:15:15.640 In fact, I was convinced it was gonna burn badly 2:15:16.080 --> 2:15:17.880 because I was like, nobody wants to hear from a 2:15:17.960 --> 2:15:22.480 producer nobody ever has, So why will this work? Especially 2:15:22.560 --> 2:15:25.080 with me and that's the lead singer. It's going to 2:15:25.160 --> 2:15:29.360 be a disaster. I was so wrong. Stare right there. 2:15:29.400 --> 2:15:31.760 We'll be back with more Shirley Manson of the band 2:15:31.800 --> 2:15:36.440 Garbage right here on the Bob Left Sense podcast. Hi, 2:15:36.560 --> 2:15:38.440 this is Bob Left Sense. My guest come to the 2:15:38.480 --> 2:15:41.800 tune In studios in Venice, California to have these conversations 2:15:41.840 --> 2:15:43.360 with me. And if you ever want to see what 2:15:43.400 --> 2:15:45.480 they look like or where we take the show, check 2:15:45.520 --> 2:15:49.760 out the photos and videos search at tune In on Twitter, Facebook, 2:15:49.760 --> 2:15:52.680 and Instagram. Let's dive right back in with my guest, 2:15:52.720 --> 2:15:56.040 Shirley Manson of the band Garbage. So you have the 2:15:56.080 --> 2:15:58.280 audition three months later? How long after that do you 2:15:58.320 --> 2:16:01.280 go in the studio? No idea, no idea, No, I'm useless. 2:16:01.360 --> 2:16:03.720 I'm a terrible witness. Okay, how about the record comes 2:16:03.760 --> 2:16:08.840 out on Almo in America? Why is that? Well, we'd 2:16:08.960 --> 2:16:12.600 signed up to the young management that took care of 2:16:12.640 --> 2:16:15.160 Boots at the time were very smart and they were young, 2:16:15.240 --> 2:16:19.160 go getting women who had an idea that the Butcher's 2:16:19.240 --> 2:16:22.600 managers were women. Young women that's certainly you know, were 2:16:22.640 --> 2:16:27.200 they also managers of garbage. Yes, okay, that's my default. Okay, 2:16:27.240 --> 2:16:30.480 but that's that's certainly out of the ordinary, especially notable 2:16:30.520 --> 2:16:34.240 on today's ME two world. Correct. And then they struck 2:16:34.320 --> 2:16:37.400 two deals, one in the UK for the rest of 2:16:37.480 --> 2:16:39.880 the world and one for North America. And they were 2:16:39.959 --> 2:16:42.600 both independent record labels, and that was what we were 2:16:42.720 --> 2:16:45.600 very keen on pursuing because what was the record label 2:16:45.640 --> 2:16:51.240 in the UK. Mushroom Records were Australian based. And so 2:16:51.480 --> 2:16:56.800 you're making the the record which takes how long? Oh god, 2:16:58.160 --> 2:17:02.200 about eighteen months with a break for Booch to make 2:17:02.240 --> 2:17:07.080 a Soul Asylum record of all things. So is it 2:17:07.160 --> 2:17:11.600 it's that slow? Because well, I think there was a 2:17:11.640 --> 2:17:14.680 lot of feet involved and Booch had a lot to lose, 2:17:15.200 --> 2:17:21.199 and so he was very, very meticulous, and I would 2:17:21.200 --> 2:17:24.400 say all of all of us were fearful of taking 2:17:24.440 --> 2:17:26.320 the wrong step. We knew this was a great opportunity, 2:17:26.400 --> 2:17:29.480 I think, and so just took a ridiculously long time. 2:17:29.520 --> 2:17:31.240 And when the record is and you're living where when 2:17:31.280 --> 2:17:35.440 that time, I'm living in a weird hotel, okay, and 2:17:36.320 --> 2:17:39.520 the record is done, Now do you think we have something? 2:17:39.600 --> 2:17:42.600 This is gonna work? Not really, but it's a hit. 2:17:43.000 --> 2:17:46.520 From the Los Angeles perspective, it is literally immediately a hit. 2:17:46.879 --> 2:17:48.400 And the only other thing I could think like this 2:17:48.840 --> 2:17:50.440 from a couple of years later was Lantis more as 2:17:50.520 --> 2:17:54.359 Set also immediately a hit, and was that your sensation? 2:17:56.360 --> 2:17:58.240 Yes and no. I mean we were aware that it 2:17:58.360 --> 2:18:01.520 was taking off in a major way really fast, but 2:18:01.760 --> 2:18:04.160 there were always artists that were doing so much better 2:18:04.240 --> 2:18:06.520 than us, and our record labels, because they were small, 2:18:06.680 --> 2:18:09.880 really relied on us to make money for them. We 2:18:10.200 --> 2:18:12.360 became this sort of like little machine that they sent 2:18:12.440 --> 2:18:14.720 out into the world to fund all their other artists 2:18:14.760 --> 2:18:18.240 who weren't selling. And so they were constantly telling us, 2:18:18.280 --> 2:18:20.240 you know, no doubt or selling more records than you. 2:18:20.480 --> 2:18:22.960 Atlantis more Set is selling more than you. You know, 2:18:23.080 --> 2:18:25.520 we'se are selling more than you. You're losing. It was 2:18:25.600 --> 2:18:29.560 constantly telling us how much we were losing. So as 2:18:29.640 --> 2:18:32.720 frustrating and awful as that process was, I'm actually quite 2:18:32.760 --> 2:18:36.600 grateful for it because it made us really like be humble. 2:18:36.800 --> 2:18:40.320 We were forced to be humble. Okay, but it's the 2:18:40.520 --> 2:18:43.880 MTV era. You're all over television, you have a unique look. 2:18:44.040 --> 2:18:47.160 You probably can't go anywhere without being recognized almost immediately. 2:18:47.520 --> 2:18:49.720 There was a lot of pressure. Okay, but that also 2:18:49.840 --> 2:18:53.280 made much you know, after years of relative obscurity, must 2:18:53.320 --> 2:18:55.560 have made you feel very good on the inside. No, 2:18:55.640 --> 2:18:59.480 it made me feel rotten on the inside. I don't 2:18:59.520 --> 2:19:01.400 know why. I mean I I didn't have a lot 2:19:01.440 --> 2:19:04.640 of self esteem to begin with, and and having attention 2:19:04.800 --> 2:19:07.040 made me feel really self conscious. And I felt the 2:19:07.080 --> 2:19:09.440 whole time I was being judged and that I was 2:19:09.640 --> 2:19:13.520 failing to be a Gwen Stefani or be an Atlantis 2:19:13.560 --> 2:19:15.440 Moore set. I was just me, surely, Anne, you know, 2:19:15.560 --> 2:19:19.039 I was just my own, small, little Scottish self. That's 2:19:19.040 --> 2:19:21.080 how I viewed it at the time. I mean that 2:19:21.280 --> 2:19:23.480 changed obviously, you know, my confidence grew and I got 2:19:23.520 --> 2:19:25.920 better at what I did as an artist. But right 2:19:25.959 --> 2:19:29.280 at the beginning, yeah, I just felt rotten. And so 2:19:30.280 --> 2:19:35.480 ultimately you tour and there's and the garbage continues. So 2:19:35.640 --> 2:19:37.720 what can you say about that experience of the late 2:19:37.840 --> 2:19:42.200 nineties and early twenty one century. I could sit here 2:19:42.240 --> 2:19:44.200 for hours and hours and hours and talk about it. 2:19:44.200 --> 2:19:46.480 I mean it was extraordinary. It was an extraordinary time 2:19:46.760 --> 2:19:50.760 where alternative music ruled the roost, and that has never 2:19:50.840 --> 2:19:54.440 happened before. It's certainly never happened since. So I was. 2:19:54.920 --> 2:19:58.520 I am an alternative music lover. I'm not particularly turned 2:19:58.560 --> 2:20:01.040 on by pop or comeform tea of any sort. Like 2:20:01.160 --> 2:20:05.120 I love music that's sort of a little off kilter, 2:20:05.480 --> 2:20:08.000 you know, and that's just been my personal taste since 2:20:08.040 --> 2:20:11.840 I was young. And so it was a moment where 2:20:12.160 --> 2:20:17.040 we were enjoying this insane success, global success, as were 2:20:17.120 --> 2:20:20.160 a lot of bands that I loved and enjoyed, and 2:20:20.320 --> 2:20:22.600 we were a community in some ways, you know. We 2:20:22.680 --> 2:20:25.920 all played these massive summer festivals and we all got 2:20:26.000 --> 2:20:28.840 to know one another. We played winter you know, in 2:20:29.040 --> 2:20:32.400 radio festivals all together, and so there was a lot 2:20:32.440 --> 2:20:37.240 of camaraderie and so it was a very exciting time 2:20:37.760 --> 2:20:42.560 for nonconforming alternative artists. And what were the other artists? 2:20:42.560 --> 2:20:45.840 You became friends with everybody, you know, whether it was Beck, 2:20:46.040 --> 2:20:49.680 whether it was you know, food Fighters, whether it was 2:20:49.800 --> 2:20:52.240 no doubt, whether it was Fiona Apple. I mean that 2:20:52.480 --> 2:20:54.920 the list was, you know, and we we all everyone 2:20:55.040 --> 2:20:57.000 was friendly to one another, as Missy Elliott, I mean, 2:20:57.040 --> 2:20:59.160 it was. It was really wonderful. So why do you 2:20:59.280 --> 2:21:02.200 think that's scene was eclipsed by hip hop and pop. 2:21:04.120 --> 2:21:06.720 That's a good question. I mean, I know why it 2:21:07.000 --> 2:21:12.040 became eclipsed by pop because I think that I think 2:21:12.080 --> 2:21:14.480 the times became very conservative. I think hip hop really 2:21:14.520 --> 2:21:16.840 exploded because it was a new It was still new. 2:21:16.879 --> 2:21:18.520 I mean, I've been around for twenty years, but it 2:21:18.560 --> 2:21:22.000 really was one of the the most courageous and creative 2:21:22.080 --> 2:21:26.120 in terms of modern production. You know, they really they 2:21:26.240 --> 2:21:29.560 sort of messed around with sounds and beats that we 2:21:29.600 --> 2:21:32.600 hadn't heard before, and it was the sound of the street, 2:21:32.720 --> 2:21:35.440 was the sound of rebellion. So hip hop, I think 2:21:35.520 --> 2:21:41.880 became the most authentic version of rebellion and questioning of 2:21:43.440 --> 2:21:49.240 authority and and and our society in a way. But 2:21:49.360 --> 2:21:52.200 is there any hope for so called alternative music. There's 2:21:52.200 --> 2:21:54.840 always hope, of course, Okay, well there's always hope. It's blind, 2:21:55.160 --> 2:21:57.560 you know, blind optimism. No, I don't think that is 2:21:57.600 --> 2:22:00.640 blind optimism, and I think it's actually sensible and pragmatic 2:22:00.760 --> 2:22:04.640 because I think history continues to repeat itself. Well, the 2:22:04.680 --> 2:22:07.520 irony is in the century really hasn't If you go 2:22:07.640 --> 2:22:11.000 back prior to the napstri era, meaning last century, every 2:22:11.240 --> 2:22:14.160 two or three years there was a whole new sound Okay, 2:22:14.560 --> 2:22:17.000 we had the hair bands which were clipped by seattle, 2:22:17.280 --> 2:22:20.320 which were eclipped by eclips by hip hop. It was 2:22:20.400 --> 2:22:22.680 then then it pop came after that. Now for the 2:22:22.760 --> 2:22:25.400 twenty one century, we've had popp pop and hip hop. 2:22:25.760 --> 2:22:27.440 Hip hop happens to be dominant now, but it's been 2:22:27.440 --> 2:22:31.879 almost twenty years. No, it's true. But I mean one 2:22:32.000 --> 2:22:35.160 could say though that hip hop has been the dominant 2:22:35.800 --> 2:22:40.480 sound of the last twenty years, and it's really progressive 2:22:40.520 --> 2:22:45.880 and really exciting, and really I do. I mean it's not. Again, 2:22:45.959 --> 2:22:49.920 it's not my preferred choice, but there's always artists that 2:22:50.000 --> 2:22:53.000 come along that catch my ear and excite me, whether 2:22:53.040 --> 2:22:55.520 it's Drake, whether it's Logic or whether you know, there's 2:22:55.560 --> 2:23:01.320 always someone um that I'm excited by. Okay, But you're 2:23:01.360 --> 2:23:04.400 making a point about, you know, why alternative music has 2:23:04.440 --> 2:23:06.840 been eclipsed by hip hop and what the future of 2:23:06.840 --> 2:23:10.320 alternative music might be. I don't know. I mean, if 2:23:10.360 --> 2:23:12.240 I had the answer to that, I would be you know, 2:23:12.879 --> 2:23:15.960 I would be investing in it. Well, you are investing here, 2:23:16.000 --> 2:23:19.200 You're still making it. I'm invested in it. Yeah, that's true, 2:23:19.520 --> 2:23:21.160 but I mean it's very different. It used to be 2:23:21.360 --> 2:23:24.840 and under the old paradigm, you made the record okay, 2:23:25.200 --> 2:23:28.520 Then your label went to video sources, MTV, whatever, went 2:23:28.560 --> 2:23:31.640 to radio. They may or may not play it. They 2:23:31.800 --> 2:23:34.640 may or may not be a reaction. But you were 2:23:34.720 --> 2:23:37.320 either on the train or you're off the train. You said, hey, 2:23:37.400 --> 2:23:40.760 this works or it doesn't work. Today, a band of 2:23:40.920 --> 2:23:44.240 the Statue of Garbage can put out a record and 2:23:44.320 --> 2:23:47.400 it can have almost zero cultural impact other than amongst 2:23:47.440 --> 2:23:50.760 its fans. What is that like being the maker of 2:23:50.840 --> 2:23:55.440 that music? You know, it's interesting because it obviously as 2:23:55.480 --> 2:23:59.080 an artist who you know, I've had to wrestle with that. 2:23:59.520 --> 2:24:03.640 That's not an easy pill to swallow. It's difficult and upsetting. 2:24:03.680 --> 2:24:06.920 I'd be a liar if I said otherwise. But I've 2:24:07.040 --> 2:24:11.480 also managed to process, and I'm very grateful for this, 2:24:11.760 --> 2:24:14.600 as has my bands. By the way, is get back 2:24:14.640 --> 2:24:17.080 into what I call a beginner's head space, a sort 2:24:17.120 --> 2:24:22.920 of a place where you don't expect anything. And we've 2:24:22.959 --> 2:24:25.760 all been able to somehow get back to that space 2:24:26.000 --> 2:24:29.880 where we were before any of the success. So we 2:24:30.040 --> 2:24:33.400 now make music solely because we love each other. We 2:24:33.840 --> 2:24:37.840 have a good creative working relationship, We enjoy making music, 2:24:37.920 --> 2:24:41.320 and we enjoy touring it and our ambitions are not 2:24:41.600 --> 2:24:44.240 much bigger than that. And as a result, we've been 2:24:44.280 --> 2:24:47.600 able to still find joy in the process of doing 2:24:47.680 --> 2:24:51.160 what we do. And we've been very lucky and that 2:24:51.240 --> 2:24:54.040 we've built upon that slowly and we have a very 2:24:54.160 --> 2:24:59.640 loyal fan base. And yeah, we were still able to 2:25:00.959 --> 2:25:03.840 be in the music scene, you know, Okay, but there's 2:25:03.879 --> 2:25:06.520 a lot these especially now more than ever. It's a 2:25:06.600 --> 2:25:09.640 business and when you go on the road, you have 2:25:09.800 --> 2:25:12.560 to feed everybody in the crew, everybody in the band 2:25:12.640 --> 2:25:14.040 has to be in the black at the end of 2:25:14.080 --> 2:25:16.920 the day. There's an agent, there's a manager, so there's 2:25:16.959 --> 2:25:20.880 a pressure to sell as many tickets as possible. You 2:25:21.000 --> 2:25:24.240 must feel that pressure, right, So then it becomes an issue. 2:25:24.280 --> 2:25:26.720 You go out, you say, well, they want to hear 2:25:26.760 --> 2:25:29.600 the hits? How much new music do you play? It's 2:25:29.720 --> 2:25:31.600 one thing to be in the studio saying, hey, we're 2:25:31.640 --> 2:25:34.520 gonna do whatever we want to do. What pressure do 2:25:34.600 --> 2:25:36.400 you feel on stage and how do you deal with that? 2:25:36.520 --> 2:25:39.720 I don't feel any pressure on stage at all. I 2:25:39.879 --> 2:25:47.160 feel comfortable enough to to own our expression when we're 2:25:47.200 --> 2:25:50.080 on stage, and if people don't like that, then so 2:25:50.280 --> 2:25:52.240 be it. That's not for me to say, but I 2:25:52.400 --> 2:25:55.240 feel in general at this point, anyone who's coming to 2:25:55.320 --> 2:25:57.960 a garbage shoe is willing to go on that ride 2:25:58.040 --> 2:25:59.800 with us. They're not going to sit there and go, well, 2:25:59.879 --> 2:26:02.320 you didn't play stupid girl, you didn't play only happy 2:26:02.320 --> 2:26:05.959 when it rains. Everybody seems to be content to come 2:26:06.040 --> 2:26:08.600 with us in whatever. So if you have new music 2:26:08.640 --> 2:26:09.800 and you go on the road, how much of the 2:26:09.840 --> 2:26:14.120 new album will you play? The last record that we released, 2:26:14.160 --> 2:26:17.560 we played half of it, Okay, And you're on stage 2:26:17.920 --> 2:26:20.720 and you're watching, do you visibly see people get up 2:26:20.760 --> 2:26:22.960 and go to the bathroom? Of course? Now, we were 2:26:23.000 --> 2:26:25.720 on we were on tour last year and we it 2:26:25.840 --> 2:26:28.400 was summertime, you know, you're playing these festivals. And I 2:26:28.480 --> 2:26:31.040 looked out and there was a man on a sun lounger, 2:26:31.160 --> 2:26:36.240 fast asleep throughout our entire set. So what you're on stage, 2:26:36.600 --> 2:26:38.480 what goes through your mind or through your heart? Well, 2:26:38.520 --> 2:26:40.480 when I was younger, that would have devastated me. Now 2:26:40.560 --> 2:26:42.840 I find it funny, and I realized, I'm like, I 2:26:42.920 --> 2:26:45.680 am here to do a job and connect with someone. 2:26:46.160 --> 2:26:48.840 It doesn't have to be everyone. You know, I'm not 2:26:48.959 --> 2:26:51.320 failing if I don't touch every heart in this audience. 2:26:51.400 --> 2:26:54.920 But my job is to get out there and tell 2:26:55.000 --> 2:26:57.760 my truth and hope that somehow I connect with one 2:26:57.920 --> 2:27:00.640 or more people. And that's all I think about. I 2:27:00.720 --> 2:27:03.920 don't worry about being famous, I don't worry about being important. 2:27:04.240 --> 2:27:06.360 I don't worry about being a start. I really did 2:27:06.480 --> 2:27:08.520 not give a ship. I'd want to be a working 2:27:08.640 --> 2:27:12.720 musician because that's well I value. I value working musicians 2:27:12.800 --> 2:27:16.240 more than anything in the world. That's my gam Okay, 2:27:16.560 --> 2:27:20.320 Two things. One two thousand five, Deaf Leopard and Brian 2:27:20.360 --> 2:27:22.920 Adams went on a tour where they played ballparks and 2:27:22.920 --> 2:27:25.480 they would alternate headlining, and I happen to see them 2:27:25.520 --> 2:27:28.760 in they were minor league ballparks in Minnesota, and at 2:27:28.800 --> 2:27:31.360 that time, the opening act on that date was Brian Adams. 2:27:31.440 --> 2:27:33.800 He had had a set list and he's playing, but 2:27:33.879 --> 2:27:36.200 also he could bring children in for free whatever, and 2:27:36.280 --> 2:27:39.320 he was having this experience of the audience not being 2:27:39.360 --> 2:27:41.800 with him, and he literally, I was standing on stage literally, 2:27:42.040 --> 2:27:44.160 you know, looked at the band, literally took out the 2:27:44.200 --> 2:27:48.240 set list and ripped it in half and slowly brought 2:27:48.720 --> 2:27:51.040 the audience into the palm of his hand and worked 2:27:51.080 --> 2:27:53.640 them into a frenzy. It was a magical thing, you know, 2:27:53.879 --> 2:27:56.600 something that only someone was very experienced doing it. Do 2:27:56.760 --> 2:27:59.960 you ever feel challenged in that way that, Okay, I'm 2:28:00.000 --> 2:28:03.840 gonna win them over All the time I go out 2:28:03.959 --> 2:28:07.640 feeling like it's like we are coming from a place 2:28:07.680 --> 2:28:11.240 of lack we are going to try and change in mind. 2:28:12.240 --> 2:28:16.720 I always feel like that, Yeah, okay, so now, how 2:28:16.879 --> 2:28:21.760 often does garbage works? It's that's doesn't even apply to 2:28:21.920 --> 2:28:24.720 us because we have such a bizarre set up. Well, 2:28:24.760 --> 2:28:26.480 the reason I'm asking what do you do with the 2:28:26.520 --> 2:28:28.280 rest of your time? That's a good question. I have 2:28:28.320 --> 2:28:33.039 absolutely no idea set a home feeling like of work tiger. Okay, 2:28:33.040 --> 2:28:34.600 you're an out of out of work tiger. Are you 2:28:34.680 --> 2:28:37.160 the type pacing the cage saying, hey, I want my 2:28:37.240 --> 2:28:40.760 bad members to record or go on the road or okay, 2:28:40.959 --> 2:28:44.840 but how about independent things that are fulfilling, whether it 2:28:44.879 --> 2:28:48.040 be music, aren't anything? Everything is fulfilling to me At 2:28:48.080 --> 2:28:50.080 this point, I feel it's up to me to find 2:28:50.160 --> 2:28:52.120 joy in my life. It's not nobody else is going 2:28:52.160 --> 2:28:54.240 to come and serve it to me. You know, you're 2:28:54.240 --> 2:28:57.680 painting a picture of you're very happy when you're working, okay, 2:28:58.000 --> 2:29:00.640 and when you're not working, you're frust rated. You would 2:29:00.640 --> 2:29:02.760 like to be working with the band. I am frustrated, 2:29:02.840 --> 2:29:04.960 but I think life isn't that simple. You know, human 2:29:05.000 --> 2:29:07.240 beings are complex. So yeah, I can be frustrated and 2:29:07.320 --> 2:29:09.560 also go out to an art gallity and see something 2:29:09.600 --> 2:29:12.039 that will blow my mind and make me feel excited. 2:29:12.160 --> 2:29:15.119 And I have like all these ideas and it excites 2:29:15.200 --> 2:29:18.039 me and I feel joyful, and and then I'll come 2:29:18.080 --> 2:29:20.680 home and fall into a slump again. I mean, I'm cute, 2:29:21.040 --> 2:29:23.800 like most human beings are. Okay, But okay, this is 2:29:23.840 --> 2:29:25.680 another thing I've noticed, because you know, when I'm right, 2:29:25.680 --> 2:29:27.560 I'm writing in the house, and a lot of times 2:29:27.600 --> 2:29:29.400 I'll be in a bad mood and you literally walk 2:29:29.400 --> 2:29:32.000 out the front door in your mood changes. It's just astounding. 2:29:32.080 --> 2:29:35.960 You just have to the threshold. But assuming it's just 2:29:36.080 --> 2:29:38.440 you're not on the road. An average day, you wake 2:29:38.560 --> 2:29:42.480 up when seven is oh, so you're living regular human 2:29:42.560 --> 2:29:45.640 being that me. I'm up late. I'm I'm more creative 2:29:45.640 --> 2:29:48.120 at night. I have a dog and the dog has 2:29:48.160 --> 2:29:49.760 to get out, and I'm not a dog person. I'm 2:29:49.800 --> 2:29:52.040 in service to my dog and the dog you have 2:29:52.080 --> 2:29:54.360 to get up at seven are seventh? Their t is? 2:29:54.480 --> 2:29:56.800 You know? And are you the type person who will 2:29:56.840 --> 2:29:59.200 go out to breakfast with friends or you are not 2:29:59.320 --> 2:30:02.000 going to write first friends? Okay, but do you do it? Yes? 2:30:02.520 --> 2:30:05.680 Of course, So you're not You're You're a people person. 2:30:05.720 --> 2:30:08.320 You're not a loner. I am very much a people person. 2:30:08.560 --> 2:30:11.560 I love people and I'm fascinated by them. But I'm 2:30:11.560 --> 2:30:14.400 also a misanthrope. So again, here you've got this duality 2:30:14.480 --> 2:30:17.320 that exists in most human beings, Like I am really 2:30:17.440 --> 2:30:21.959 fascinated and genuinely interested in anyone I meet, and I'm 2:30:22.000 --> 2:30:25.720 open to engaging with them. Okay, you can meet them once. 2:30:26.879 --> 2:30:28.760 Do you want to see them again? It depends how 2:30:28.800 --> 2:30:31.720 great they are right exactly? Or do you find bore bob? 2:30:31.800 --> 2:30:33.640 But I have no interest in seeing them. There are 2:30:33.680 --> 2:30:35.360 a lot of people I find. You know, everybody's got 2:30:35.400 --> 2:30:37.760 a fascinating story. You can hear it once, but there 2:30:37.800 --> 2:30:39.480 are other people. Every time you hang with them, they 2:30:39.520 --> 2:30:41.960 tell the same story, and it's like, you know, I 2:30:42.040 --> 2:30:43.560 have no I I bump them and into one thing, 2:30:43.720 --> 2:30:45.280 but I'm not going to make plans with them. No, 2:30:45.520 --> 2:30:47.720 of course, not I mean, that's how you select the 2:30:47.760 --> 2:30:49.920 people in your life. But it also makes me feel 2:30:49.959 --> 2:30:53.920 I mean, uh, I don't view myself as the average person. 2:30:54.240 --> 2:30:55.800 I don't know what they can even say this, Maybe 2:30:55.840 --> 2:30:58.240 it's out of date. Average person is getting up in 2:30:58.280 --> 2:31:01.160 the morning and going to a job. They're seeing people 2:31:01.240 --> 2:31:04.080 all the time at the job. It is wearing them out, 2:31:04.520 --> 2:31:07.400 and they come home and they want to relax. They 2:31:07.520 --> 2:31:09.600 maybe have a drink, have a smoke, watch TV, and 2:31:09.640 --> 2:31:11.680 get up and do it again. And on the weekends 2:31:11.720 --> 2:31:13.320 they'll go out to dinner, I'll go out to a show. 2:31:13.680 --> 2:31:17.000 They'll cut loose. Okay where this someone once made a 2:31:17.000 --> 2:31:19.200 great line? You know, the people who party hardest on 2:31:19.280 --> 2:31:23.440 these conventions are not the music business people because these 2:31:23.480 --> 2:31:25.520 other people it's one time of year. You got a Vegas. 2:31:25.560 --> 2:31:27.400 These people out of control where the music. But you 2:31:27.440 --> 2:31:29.959 can think you can party every night, So why shouldn't 2:31:29.959 --> 2:31:33.440 be out of control tonight? So my question is are 2:31:33.520 --> 2:31:35.680 you since you don't have when you're not on the road, 2:31:35.720 --> 2:31:40.360 you're not recording. Uh, are you in the house sort 2:31:40.400 --> 2:31:43.720 of bouncing off the walls? So how are you occupying 2:31:43.800 --> 2:31:47.320 your time? That's a good question. I mean, I walk 2:31:47.480 --> 2:31:50.560 my dog alt, I go to galleries, I read a lot, 2:31:50.720 --> 2:31:54.200 I love going to movies, I love dinner with friends. 2:31:54.440 --> 2:31:56.360 I mean, there's a million and one thing. So in 2:31:56.400 --> 2:31:59.520 the average, in the average week, how many times in 2:31:59.560 --> 2:32:01.320 a week do you go to breakfast with friends? Go 2:32:01.360 --> 2:32:06.080 to dinner with friends? You don't no idea. I'm you know, 2:32:06.320 --> 2:32:09.359 trying to say, is you know you sound very social, 2:32:09.760 --> 2:32:11.760 So therefore when I hear that you about your frustration, 2:32:11.800 --> 2:32:14.320 I'm just trying to figure it out, you know, And 2:32:14.440 --> 2:32:16.160 you say you're a missing thrope? Are you the type 2:32:16.200 --> 2:32:18.000 of person who really you know, you go when you 2:32:18.080 --> 2:32:20.880 have a good time. But are you mostly alone or 2:32:20.920 --> 2:32:23.959 you're mostly hanging? I don't even know how to answer 2:32:24.040 --> 2:32:26.520 this question. This is amazing. I have absolutely no idea. 2:32:26.680 --> 2:32:29.520 This is so peculiar to me that I'm not sure 2:32:29.920 --> 2:32:32.080 to be honest. I mean, I'm both shy and I'm 2:32:32.120 --> 2:32:35.440 both gregadious. I both love people and I hate them. 2:32:35.920 --> 2:32:38.320 If I had my brothers, I'd spend my whole life 2:32:38.360 --> 2:32:42.480 with my talk. Okay, So if you're home alone, I'm happy. 2:32:42.720 --> 2:32:45.800 You're a happy pig and ship Okay, and you're married 2:32:45.879 --> 2:32:47.840 At this point, they've been married for eight years. What 2:32:47.959 --> 2:32:50.359 did your husband do for a living. He's a music producer, 2:32:50.920 --> 2:32:53.760 music producer. We could look this up online. So what 2:32:54.000 --> 2:32:58.080 what what does he actually do? Well? He also works 2:32:58.160 --> 2:33:01.280 with my bands, he's like our engineer, right, And he 2:33:01.400 --> 2:33:05.640 also produces bands on his own. So if he's producing 2:33:05.720 --> 2:33:07.360 bands on his own, is he tend to be in 2:33:07.560 --> 2:33:10.080 town with you? In Los Angeles or out of town? 2:33:11.520 --> 2:33:13.520 All of the above? And if you go on the road, 2:33:13.560 --> 2:33:15.280 does he go with you on the road? Yes, he does, 2:33:15.600 --> 2:33:18.760 and he does the sound on the road. So you're together. 2:33:19.000 --> 2:33:21.879 We're together. And how did you meet him? We hired him? 2:33:22.320 --> 2:33:24.760 You hired him? And how he was our guitar? Roadif? 2:33:26.800 --> 2:33:28.760 How old is he relative to you? He's a year 2:33:28.840 --> 2:33:31.200 younger than okay, so basically the same age. How long 2:33:31.240 --> 2:33:33.879 did it became a romance? Oh? Years and years and years, 2:33:33.920 --> 2:33:36.040 years and years and years. He loved me from the 2:33:36.240 --> 2:33:37.840 day that he met me, he said. In fact, he 2:33:38.000 --> 2:33:39.920 said that he loved me before he met me because 2:33:39.959 --> 2:33:42.280 he'd heard me sing. And he used to listen to 2:33:42.320 --> 2:33:44.240 a garbage c D every night to go to sleep. 2:33:44.400 --> 2:33:46.200 Milk would send him to sleep every night. This was 2:33:46.280 --> 2:33:48.440 before we met. Then we met and I couldn't have 2:33:48.440 --> 2:33:51.560 been less interested in him. And but then over the 2:33:51.640 --> 2:33:53.520 years he became a really good friend. And then I 2:33:53.560 --> 2:33:55.520 started to notice that when he wasn't around, I didn't 2:33:55.520 --> 2:33:59.760 feel good. Really yeah, but he was, you know, carrying 2:33:59.800 --> 2:34:03.640 a was devoted to me. Okay, So what what was 2:34:03.680 --> 2:34:06.000 the transition? What made it happen? I mean I tell 2:34:06.040 --> 2:34:07.600 the story all the time and people don't believe me, 2:34:07.680 --> 2:34:09.840 but this is how superficial and cheap I am. So 2:34:10.000 --> 2:34:12.800 my makeup artist at the time, unbeknownst to me, had 2:34:12.800 --> 2:34:15.440 shaved his head because he had terrible hair, like thinning, 2:34:15.840 --> 2:34:18.240 long rocker hair, and she shaved it off. So we 2:34:18.280 --> 2:34:21.040 had a little buzz cut. And I came down. We 2:34:21.160 --> 2:34:24.600 were supporting I think Alanis Morissett, and we came down 2:34:24.640 --> 2:34:27.120 in a bus down the ramp towards the stadium, and 2:34:27.160 --> 2:34:29.280 there was a super hot guy standing by the side 2:34:29.280 --> 2:34:31.320 of the bus and I was like, he's hot. Oh ship, 2:34:31.440 --> 2:34:36.240 that's Billy Bush there. And began the romance. Okay, and 2:34:36.520 --> 2:34:38.640 so actually married how long eight years? How long was 2:34:38.800 --> 2:34:45.840 the romance going on? M sixteen years? Maybe a long time? Yeah, 2:34:46.120 --> 2:34:49.520 And now, uh, you were married once before I was, 2:34:49.800 --> 2:34:53.680 And what was that about Well, it was about a 2:34:53.840 --> 2:34:56.680 gorgeous person who I still miss and love very much, 2:34:56.959 --> 2:35:03.560 but we were pulled apart by extraneous circumstances. I start 2:35:03.640 --> 2:35:06.920 touring the world. And also I think I had rushed 2:35:07.000 --> 2:35:10.200 to his side because he was a paternal figure and 2:35:10.280 --> 2:35:15.120 I had been in a very destructive, sexually dangerous, abusive 2:35:15.879 --> 2:35:22.039 relationship until I met my first husband. So he kind 2:35:22.080 --> 2:35:24.560 of rescued you, Yes, he rescued And how did that end? 2:35:25.440 --> 2:35:29.600 It just ended in sadly, in me becoming successful and 2:35:29.760 --> 2:35:31.680 going on tour and we've never seen each other, and 2:35:31.720 --> 2:35:35.800 then the relationship just kind of deteriorated and in my 2:35:35.920 --> 2:35:38.959 great you don't have any children? Right? Oh god? No, okay, 2:35:39.000 --> 2:35:43.040 so that's a conscious thought. Yes, you always knew that 2:35:43.120 --> 2:35:45.560 you were never going to have children. No, I never 2:35:45.920 --> 2:35:49.000 knew that I wouldn't have children. But I never ached 2:35:49.080 --> 2:35:50.920 for them, like women talk a lot about aching in 2:35:51.000 --> 2:35:53.560 their wombs, and I would always be like, kind of 2:35:53.640 --> 2:35:55.760 like a dude looking at them blankly, like what does 2:35:55.840 --> 2:35:57.880 that mean? I don't even know where that is. I 2:35:57.920 --> 2:36:00.440 had no aching in my womb and no a longing 2:36:00.560 --> 2:36:04.360 for a child. Really, how about your husband? None? Either? Well, 2:36:04.440 --> 2:36:06.000 I felt the same way. I felt that I was 2:36:06.120 --> 2:36:09.199 living my own life and I didn't want to subjugate myself. 2:36:09.720 --> 2:36:12.879 But once I hit forty, I realized life was meaningless 2:36:13.440 --> 2:36:16.000 and I saw my sisters with their kids whatever, and 2:36:16.080 --> 2:36:19.200 I understood it at that point in time. But it's 2:36:19.600 --> 2:36:22.560 very much a different life when you don't have kids. 2:36:22.600 --> 2:36:24.760 I'm not complaining, but it's different. People say, oh, I'm 2:36:24.760 --> 2:36:26.800 turned onto this and that by kids. I'm not turned on. 2:36:26.840 --> 2:36:30.000 I mean, you know it doesn't happen to me. No, 2:36:30.200 --> 2:36:34.280 But I also don't believe one should live vicariously through 2:36:34.320 --> 2:36:36.440 your kids. I don't mean like I couldn't agree more. 2:36:36.600 --> 2:36:39.880 I'm trying to say, especially when it comes to musical trends. 2:36:40.320 --> 2:36:41.840 They'll be in the car and the kid will say, hey, 2:36:41.920 --> 2:36:44.160 put this on the radio something you would normally not 2:36:44.400 --> 2:36:46.800 listen to. My Yeah. I mean, there's billions of children 2:36:46.840 --> 2:36:48.840 in my life, thankfully, so it's not like I'm of 2:36:48.959 --> 2:36:51.240 contact with any kids or any new music or whatever. 2:36:51.920 --> 2:36:55.040 But for me personally, I think my mother was so 2:36:55.240 --> 2:36:57.959 devoted to me as a mom, like she was an orphan. 2:36:58.080 --> 2:36:59.920 Like my mom was had a crazy story. She was 2:37:00.120 --> 2:37:03.680 like an orphan child of a governess. And a butler 2:37:03.800 --> 2:37:07.000 in a stately home in Scotland, and the idea of 2:37:07.120 --> 2:37:10.520 her the mom having a child out of wedlock would 2:37:10.520 --> 2:37:12.440 have lost she would have lost her job and been 2:37:12.680 --> 2:37:15.920 you know, castigated. So they took the baby in a 2:37:17.120 --> 2:37:20.600 basket literally and dropped her off in an orphanage. And 2:37:21.000 --> 2:37:25.040 she was reared in the in the institution of you 2:37:25.120 --> 2:37:29.400 know or orphanages until she was five years old. So 2:37:30.840 --> 2:37:34.720 family was really important to her, and she dedicated herself slavishly. 2:37:35.160 --> 2:37:37.840 One would say to her children, and I think I 2:37:38.000 --> 2:37:39.920 just grew up thinking, no way am I doing that. 2:37:40.360 --> 2:37:44.520 That is not I'm not doing that. We're going to 2:37:44.560 --> 2:37:47.160 pause for a moment. We joined this conversation with truly 2:37:47.240 --> 2:37:54.119 more of the band Garbage. This is Bob. I love 2:37:54.200 --> 2:37:56.320 talking to people getting their stories, much like I do 2:37:56.440 --> 2:37:58.640 on this podcast. For two name, I'll be talking to 2:37:58.720 --> 2:38:00.320 some of the most important people in the music in 2:38:00.400 --> 2:38:03.400 tech industries that my music media summit in Santa Barbara 2:38:03.440 --> 2:38:05.440 the last week in of April. I'd love to have 2:38:05.520 --> 2:38:07.119 you joined the event. It's going to be a great 2:38:07.160 --> 2:38:10.560 way to connect in person with these high profile individuals, 2:38:10.680 --> 2:38:12.760 learned how they made it in the future, direction of 2:38:12.800 --> 2:38:16.000 their industries. Go to Music Media Summit dot com for 2:38:16.160 --> 2:38:20.080 tickets and more information. Let's continue the conversation with the 2:38:20.160 --> 2:38:23.960 lead singer of the band Garbage, Shirley Manson. So for 2:38:24.040 --> 2:38:26.200 the last six months we've been living through this me 2:38:26.440 --> 2:38:31.039 too moment. First question would be, you know we talked 2:38:31.040 --> 2:38:33.959 about with your first band, but have you experienced any 2:38:34.040 --> 2:38:37.960 of this sexism or sexual harassment? Yeah? Every woman that 2:38:39.240 --> 2:38:43.360 unless she's incredibly privileged. Now, on some level, you're very 2:38:43.520 --> 2:38:47.160 dynamic and very quick, but on some level, one level, 2:38:47.440 --> 2:38:49.160 some level, no, I'm gonna get to the other level. 2:38:50.360 --> 2:38:54.320 So on some level you're very dynamic and you're quick, okay, 2:38:54.480 --> 2:38:58.000 but you also tell stories of being shy and subservient. 2:38:58.760 --> 2:39:03.280 So where does this leave in these situations? Well, that's 2:39:03.320 --> 2:39:06.080 a really good question. I mean, it's peculiar. I don't 2:39:06.120 --> 2:39:11.119 think anyone who hasn't been physically touched unwanted in an 2:39:11.160 --> 2:39:16.160 adwanted fashion really can understand why it's difficult sometimes to 2:39:16.360 --> 2:39:20.920 use your voice in that situation. Um, I consider myself 2:39:21.000 --> 2:39:27.120 a very dominant, aggressive, articulate person, and I've had my 2:39:27.200 --> 2:39:33.400 body touched and have frozen as recently as last year. Uh, 2:39:33.920 --> 2:39:37.080 when you were to the degree you're comfortable. What happened 2:39:37.160 --> 2:39:40.520 last year? I was at a radio festival and we 2:39:40.640 --> 2:39:44.840 were meeting competition winners and we had there was a 2:39:44.920 --> 2:39:47.440 long line of people that we were just standing in 2:39:47.520 --> 2:39:49.800 front of a backdrop and having our photographs taken, and 2:39:50.840 --> 2:39:54.000 some dude moves in, stands beside me, puts his hand 2:39:54.040 --> 2:39:55.960 on my breast. He's got his arm around me and 2:39:56.000 --> 2:39:57.920 then puts his hand on my breast and I think, oh, wow, 2:39:58.680 --> 2:40:00.920 he's he's so nervous and I comfortable he has had 2:40:00.959 --> 2:40:04.000 on my breast. This is embarrassing, that's all right. And 2:40:04.200 --> 2:40:06.200 I tried to like shift and he just kept on 2:40:06.320 --> 2:40:08.360 grabbing me. And then eventually I put my own hand 2:40:08.440 --> 2:40:11.520 on his hand and pushed his hand to try and 2:40:11.560 --> 2:40:13.440 get him off my breast, and he would not let go, 2:40:14.240 --> 2:40:16.120 and eventually I managed to push his hand down to 2:40:16.200 --> 2:40:18.800 my waist and we took the photograph and I was 2:40:18.920 --> 2:40:21.640 frozen like a deer in the headlights, and he wandered 2:40:21.680 --> 2:40:26.040 off and I couldn't even look where he'd went, what 2:40:26.200 --> 2:40:28.120 direction he had gone, and I was just so my 2:40:28.240 --> 2:40:30.280 mind was so full of like wow, that dude just 2:40:30.360 --> 2:40:33.480 grab my tit in front of everybody. Now I'm not 2:40:33.600 --> 2:40:35.880 saying that's comparable to what a lot of women have 2:40:36.000 --> 2:40:38.760 experienced or some men, by the way, but it was 2:40:38.879 --> 2:40:41.240 unpleasant and I found it really upsetting, and I was 2:40:41.360 --> 2:40:44.080 angry at myself for not going dude and shout, you know, 2:40:44.240 --> 2:40:47.320 calling him out, like what are you doing? But I didn't, 2:40:47.440 --> 2:40:50.279 And so it gave me some insight into the process 2:40:50.360 --> 2:40:53.600 that occurs for so many women in situations where they 2:40:53.680 --> 2:40:56.840 just freeze and they can't push back, they can't shout, 2:40:56.920 --> 2:41:00.320 they can't fight back, they can't say anything. It's mad. 2:41:01.280 --> 2:41:03.560 So let's assume the same thing were to happen this summer. 2:41:04.080 --> 2:41:05.960 Do you think you would freeze again? I don't know, 2:41:06.600 --> 2:41:09.840 you know, I don't know. That's something I don't think 2:41:09.879 --> 2:41:12.480 men understand. You See, It's like when you're a woman 2:41:12.760 --> 2:41:16.640 your entire life, when you walk out the house, you're 2:41:16.680 --> 2:41:19.480 aware that you could be hurt in some way, and 2:41:19.600 --> 2:41:22.920 men never have that experience, not really unless they're in warfare. 2:41:23.400 --> 2:41:25.360 You know, generally speaking, a man doesn't have to think 2:41:25.400 --> 2:41:29.080 about his physical safety. Women think about it all the time, 2:41:29.400 --> 2:41:32.120 and it's something that men, God bless them, just cannot 2:41:32.320 --> 2:41:35.520 quite connect to that idea of like that you know, 2:41:35.800 --> 2:41:39.280 you're walking down the street, you're nervous, there's some somebody 2:41:39.360 --> 2:41:42.760 whistles out your says something sexual to you. It's intimidating, 2:41:42.800 --> 2:41:44.720 it's frightening because you don't know where it can lead. 2:41:45.480 --> 2:41:48.280 You know, I was married to someone who did not 2:41:48.400 --> 2:41:50.800 have them as a guy. We've all been in places, 2:41:51.000 --> 2:41:53.520 we've hit on somebody that's kind of weird, kind of tache. 2:41:53.560 --> 2:41:56.640 We've even talked to a woman okay, and they very 2:41:56.800 --> 2:41:59.880 specifically send a signal it's a brush off. I don't 2:42:00.000 --> 2:42:05.240 want to talk to you, okay, And if you're a man, unfortunately, 2:42:05.440 --> 2:42:08.600 if someone doesn't give that signal, a lot of people 2:42:08.720 --> 2:42:11.840 but then see that as a green light unfortunately. So 2:42:12.680 --> 2:42:15.400 you fear as a woman, you feel you might get 2:42:15.520 --> 2:42:19.960 hurt to what degree? What behaviors doing you employ to 2:42:20.120 --> 2:42:25.440 make sure you don't get hurt? Well, I mean you're careful, 2:42:25.840 --> 2:42:28.200 you know, I've always been very careful. I don't walk 2:42:28.280 --> 2:42:31.600 down dark streets alone at night if I can possibly 2:42:31.680 --> 2:42:33.840 help it. If I am down in dark street at 2:42:33.920 --> 2:42:35.760 night by myself, I'm walking down the middle of the 2:42:36.160 --> 2:42:38.600 middle of the road, because it was going to take 2:42:38.640 --> 2:42:40.640 a further distance to drag me from one side to 2:42:40.640 --> 2:42:43.840 the other. I mean silly things like that. You know, um, 2:42:44.240 --> 2:42:46.200 I make it very clear and I'm very lucky and 2:42:46.280 --> 2:42:49.640 that I am not scared to say, dude, I'm not interested. 2:42:50.200 --> 2:42:52.520 You know, please go go back and join your friends 2:42:52.680 --> 2:42:55.160 or you know, I'm pretty clear. But not. But not 2:42:55.240 --> 2:42:57.240 all women are like that. And a lot of women 2:42:57.280 --> 2:43:00.720 have been conditioned to please men and a peace men 2:43:01.080 --> 2:43:04.760 and they don't They don't want to upset them or 2:43:04.879 --> 2:43:09.360 hurt their egos or or incite them, you know, to 2:43:09.400 --> 2:43:12.080 be aggressive. So there's a whole thing at play. I mean, 2:43:12.280 --> 2:43:16.400 I know we've all talked about this for some months now, 2:43:16.600 --> 2:43:19.160 and my only feeling about it all is we need 2:43:19.240 --> 2:43:22.720 to re educate our children, are boys and our girls. 2:43:23.520 --> 2:43:25.240 And what would that look like? Well, you know, it's 2:43:25.360 --> 2:43:27.960 it's for men. I think it's really confusing. You know, 2:43:28.120 --> 2:43:32.040 there's a lot there's there's a lot of of depicting 2:43:32.840 --> 2:43:38.520 men in movies, in TV, in literature, you know, where 2:43:38.879 --> 2:43:43.760 the pursuit is romanticized, where they're encouraged to push even 2:43:43.800 --> 2:43:46.039 when a woman says no, that you know that they 2:43:46.200 --> 2:43:48.320 learned that maybe if they push a little harder, they'll 2:43:48.360 --> 2:43:50.880 finally get what they want, she'll relent, you know. Blah 2:43:50.959 --> 2:43:56.200 blah blah. There's all this misconst like misguiding stuff out 2:43:56.240 --> 2:43:58.440 there about what it means to be a dude. And 2:43:59.000 --> 2:44:01.400 I just think we need to to change a little 2:44:01.640 --> 2:44:03.600 just I just think a few tweaks and the way 2:44:03.680 --> 2:44:06.600 we raise our children will will help men and women 2:44:07.400 --> 2:44:11.640 co exist a little more comfortably those look like. I 2:44:11.840 --> 2:44:16.280 think the great thing that I welcome the most right 2:44:16.320 --> 2:44:19.240 now is the breakdown of binary gender. I think that 2:44:20.040 --> 2:44:22.680 is a great start right there, where men are not 2:44:22.959 --> 2:44:30.480 expected to be you know, the the the one who 2:44:31.680 --> 2:44:35.000 they alpha yea, or they're not expected to be the 2:44:35.720 --> 2:44:38.760 predator and or the chaser or the one who always 2:44:38.760 --> 2:44:40.440 asked a woman out in a day where it becomes 2:44:40.440 --> 2:44:43.920 a little more iglitarian where men and women are. You know, 2:44:43.959 --> 2:44:45.120 a lot of the time when I was growing up 2:44:45.120 --> 2:44:48.279 in the seventies, women were just expected to wait, literally 2:44:48.360 --> 2:44:52.600 wait until a man asked her to dance, you know. 2:44:52.720 --> 2:44:54.800 So it all starts off at in primary school for us, 2:44:54.840 --> 2:44:57.480 you know, like when you're five, you're you're lined up 2:44:57.520 --> 2:44:59.800 against the wall. This was in the seventies in Scotland, 2:44:59.800 --> 2:45:01.680 were all the women were lined up against the wall 2:45:02.000 --> 2:45:04.240 and then the men or the boys were sent and 2:45:04.280 --> 2:45:06.440 I go choose your partner, and the man would the 2:45:06.480 --> 2:45:08.720 boy would choose whoever they wanted to dance with. And 2:45:09.080 --> 2:45:13.200 are you bringing back memories? Wow, that's really crazy. You know, 2:45:13.240 --> 2:45:15.520 I'm not healthy and not good and it starts right 2:45:15.640 --> 2:45:20.279 that early, you know. And I think boys are praised 2:45:20.360 --> 2:45:23.440 for being you know, good at sports and aggressive and 2:45:23.800 --> 2:45:26.440 and even violent, you know, and women are praised for 2:45:26.520 --> 2:45:29.720 being pretty and cute and small and just a little 2:45:29.720 --> 2:45:31.720 tweaks like that. You know, I think it could help 2:45:32.040 --> 2:45:34.720 change the Well, let's go back to your husband. You 2:45:34.840 --> 2:45:36.360 pull up in the bus. You see him with a 2:45:36.400 --> 2:45:39.160 buzz cut. You said that dude looks hot. You really 2:45:39.200 --> 2:45:42.320 recognize them very slowly. How do you change the signal 2:45:42.400 --> 2:45:46.000 you're sending to him? Well, these are my trade secrets. 2:45:46.840 --> 2:45:49.360 I don't serve them. You've already used them. You're getting 2:45:49.360 --> 2:45:52.720 you know, you're very happily married, healthy audience. No, no, no, 2:45:52.879 --> 2:45:55.600 that's that's my own game. That's my private game, for sure. 2:45:55.720 --> 2:45:59.080 I mean, how how you you let someone know? I 2:45:59.120 --> 2:46:01.320 mean I knew he would love me, of course, we've 2:46:01.400 --> 2:46:04.600 established I love you, bet you, so eventually I was 2:46:04.640 --> 2:46:07.480 just a bit more welcoming. You know, we'd spend time together, 2:46:07.640 --> 2:46:14.080 we'd looking you know, we just become really good friends. Okay, 2:46:14.520 --> 2:46:17.440 what advice would you give to someone where the other 2:46:17.600 --> 2:46:22.440 person's uh desires are not as clear? I have no 2:46:22.520 --> 2:46:24.480 advice to give, because I think it's different for every 2:46:24.560 --> 2:46:27.680 single person. That's the thing where there's no blanket rules there, 2:46:27.720 --> 2:46:31.320 because each man and each woman and each any any 2:46:31.400 --> 2:46:34.080 person of any gender, we're all made up so differently, 2:46:34.160 --> 2:46:38.720 and so what what is seen as a as um 2:46:39.959 --> 2:46:43.720 a dance between the two is so unique to each relationship. 2:46:43.800 --> 2:46:46.480 I think, you know, there's no blanket advice i'd give 2:46:46.520 --> 2:46:49.000 anyone for fear of that biting me in the ass. 2:46:50.000 --> 2:46:51.480 You sound like more of the type of person would 2:46:51.480 --> 2:46:53.120 give advice and then when they came back to it 2:46:53.200 --> 2:46:54.280 said it didn't work to well, you know, what the 2:46:54.360 --> 2:46:56.640 hell do I know that's true? I was? I mean, 2:46:56.720 --> 2:46:59.120 I I the older I get, the less advice. I 2:46:59.160 --> 2:47:02.160 want to get all the exact same way. Twenty years ago, 2:47:02.480 --> 2:47:05.400 I tell everybody how to live their lives. Now I'm 2:47:05.440 --> 2:47:07.240 not sure that I know what I'm talking about, and 2:47:07.480 --> 2:47:09.160 I know I have no idea what I'm telling. And 2:47:09.240 --> 2:47:11.760 they say, and they're not gonna listen to me. It's 2:47:11.800 --> 2:47:16.800 like why why ruined the relationship? But waste right now. 2:47:16.920 --> 2:47:20.600 The fantasy, the rock star fantasy, which aligns very much 2:47:20.640 --> 2:47:22.959 with the truth, is we have a guy who shy 2:47:23.560 --> 2:47:25.680 and he speaks to his guitar and he feels if 2:47:25.720 --> 2:47:28.920 I become successful musician, I will be able to have 2:47:29.640 --> 2:47:33.160 a girlfriend of sex, life, etcetera. That's men on the road. 2:47:33.440 --> 2:47:37.720 It is very different today in light of cell phone cameras, etcetera. 2:47:38.040 --> 2:47:41.480 But prior to that, the legend was relatively true. The 2:47:41.560 --> 2:47:44.720 men went on the road. There were groupies. As David 2:47:44.800 --> 2:47:47.240 Lee Roth said, I know on the road, and I 2:47:47.280 --> 2:47:49.359 can get laid every night of the week, not necessarily 2:47:49.400 --> 2:47:51.080 by whom I want to get laid by, but every 2:47:51.200 --> 2:47:54.040 night of the week. As a woman being on the road, 2:47:55.200 --> 2:47:58.440 What were your desires and your feelings in your own 2:47:58.520 --> 2:48:02.480 experience in this situation. I can remember, like you know, 2:48:02.760 --> 2:48:05.400 being like number one all over the world. I was 2:48:05.520 --> 2:48:09.560 all over like the coolest fashion magazines in the country. 2:48:10.360 --> 2:48:15.039 I was being lauded and applauded, and everything was tick 2:48:15.120 --> 2:48:18.160 tiboo from a professional standpoint. But I would go back 2:48:18.200 --> 2:48:20.760 to my hotel tell room by myself. Let's stop with 2:48:21.120 --> 2:48:23.560 what is tixie boo? Tick ty boo just means you 2:48:23.640 --> 2:48:27.039 know what tickt boo? Right, Okay, you can just hear 2:48:27.080 --> 2:48:30.320 from from hearing it. But did you go back to 2:48:30.440 --> 2:48:33.240 your hotel room happy? Or did you say, god, I'm 2:48:33.240 --> 2:48:35.160 on the cover every magazine here I am alone. I 2:48:35.200 --> 2:48:37.160 probably went home back to my hotel room. How to work? 2:48:38.520 --> 2:48:42.400 There is nobody around, you know, but I have to 2:48:42.520 --> 2:48:46.440 believe being that famous, invisible men would try to make 2:48:46.520 --> 2:48:51.680 themselves available. No, no, men were terrified of me. Absolutely. 2:48:52.720 --> 2:48:55.400 You're a band on the road, which means you're going 2:48:55.520 --> 2:48:58.200 to concert halls, you're going to radio stations. There's a 2:48:58.360 --> 2:49:02.120 lot of men there. One of those men starts not 2:49:02.560 --> 2:49:08.760 what not once? I never got hit home once. Wow. Again, 2:49:08.840 --> 2:49:11.240 that's what I mean about the conditioning of the man too, 2:49:11.400 --> 2:49:15.120 how because men want to be the powerful alpha, and 2:49:15.240 --> 2:49:18.160 if you're the powerful alpha, that changes the dynamic. And 2:49:18.480 --> 2:49:21.000 no man really has been taught to deal with that. 2:49:21.280 --> 2:49:24.480 Not many men, I should say, again sweeping generalizations, but 2:49:24.560 --> 2:49:27.000 the majority of men don't know how to deal with 2:49:27.120 --> 2:49:30.640 a woman who's more successful than they are, and you know, 2:49:30.760 --> 2:49:33.640 has has has a credit card, and can get herself 2:49:33.720 --> 2:49:35.840 out of any situation. She doesn't need the night in 2:49:35.879 --> 2:49:38.440 Shining Armor to come save her. They don't know what 2:49:38.560 --> 2:49:41.440 to do with that. In your marriage, are you the one? 2:49:41.640 --> 2:49:44.320 Do you wear the pants and the family so to speak? No, 2:49:44.680 --> 2:49:48.760 I actually we have a pretty balanced So you decide 2:49:48.760 --> 2:49:51.000 you're going to go to dinner, who chooses the restaurant 2:49:51.520 --> 2:49:54.120 changes every day? Okay, So I mean I'm not being funny, 2:49:54.120 --> 2:49:56.120 I'm not being flippant. I was interress with you. So 2:49:56.240 --> 2:49:59.240 it's balanced in the relationship balance. So once you get 2:49:59.360 --> 2:50:02.400 over the thre shold, you're willing to be equal to 2:50:02.520 --> 2:50:05.280 the man as opposed to be dominant with the man. Well, 2:50:05.320 --> 2:50:07.680 I'll be dominant if I feel like this situation is 2:50:07.760 --> 2:50:10.360 not being taken care of, of course, that's that's something different. 2:50:10.840 --> 2:50:13.680 So if we go back to this situation, you're on 2:50:13.800 --> 2:50:19.240 top of the world, you're and there are no um 2:50:20.959 --> 2:50:27.240 boyfriends at the time, do you start to hit on men? Well, 2:50:27.280 --> 2:50:29.680 that's a good question. I don't know. Some people say 2:50:29.760 --> 2:50:32.400 you're you're flirting out rageously with him, and I'm like, no, 2:50:32.520 --> 2:50:35.640 I wasn't. Well, there's one thing to flirt outrageously and 2:50:35.720 --> 2:50:37.880 say I'm having fun, but I would never left this 2:50:37.959 --> 2:50:40.000 guy in my hotel room. There's another thing to say, 2:50:40.000 --> 2:50:42.360 I'm having fun if the guy is fun, and it 2:50:42.440 --> 2:50:45.920 might go somewhere. To be honest, I'm no, I can't. 2:50:46.120 --> 2:50:48.200 I don't really have any memories of meeting somebody that 2:50:48.320 --> 2:50:53.080 was really interested in so because the pickens were slim 2:50:53.200 --> 2:50:57.440 or your standards, I'm slim and my standards were high. 2:50:58.080 --> 2:51:00.320 To be honest, and again, I'm signing like a sort 2:51:00.360 --> 2:51:04.840 of a sort of old maid in that I have 2:51:05.080 --> 2:51:08.320 never wanted to just have sex with someone just to 2:51:08.400 --> 2:51:12.120 have sex, because I just think, statistically wise, there's very 2:51:12.160 --> 2:51:14.280 few people that are going to make my experience worth it. 2:51:14.840 --> 2:51:18.760 So in general, I'm attracted to the brain first, and 2:51:18.840 --> 2:51:22.119 then then then I'm like, okay, sex could be interesting, 2:51:22.280 --> 2:51:25.520 let's see where this goes. But it's usually brain first. 2:51:25.560 --> 2:51:27.320 I'm never like, oh he's hot, I'm going to like 2:51:27.440 --> 2:51:29.760 go go back to my own you know. That's you know, 2:51:29.920 --> 2:51:32.920 in my limited experience. That's women feel the same way. 2:51:33.440 --> 2:51:37.120 There there's millions of women that I know who are 2:51:37.240 --> 2:51:40.440 who will fox somebody for just sex. Millions of them, 2:51:40.720 --> 2:51:43.560 I think so, But isn't that they're the lower percentage. 2:51:44.200 --> 2:51:47.280 I don't know, Actually, I would challenge that idea. I 2:51:47.400 --> 2:51:49.600 think that's what we've been led to believe. I feel 2:51:49.600 --> 2:51:54.320 like that's necessarily reality. It's like affairs, you know, supposedly, 2:51:54.680 --> 2:51:56.600 you know, more women are having an affairs than men. 2:51:57.440 --> 2:52:00.520 So what does that tell you? I think you know 2:52:00.600 --> 2:52:03.920 what it tells you. I know I'm only do me 2:52:04.000 --> 2:52:06.240 I'm wrong. Put myself on the ground a little bit more. 2:52:06.480 --> 2:52:08.040 I think it'll do a great degree. That to men 2:52:08.080 --> 2:52:10.800 who are not u servicing is a terrible world. I 2:52:10.840 --> 2:52:14.120 don't mean in terms of sexual stuff, but they're not 2:52:14.240 --> 2:52:18.160 paying attention to the woman, and the woman has opportunities. Well, 2:52:18.200 --> 2:52:21.640 women are finding opportunities for themselves and and and as 2:52:21.720 --> 2:52:24.040 they get older, they get better at doing that, and 2:52:24.200 --> 2:52:26.800 then it seems lose their confidence. It's a sort of 2:52:26.879 --> 2:52:30.640 flip of the way we are that we developed that, 2:52:30.720 --> 2:52:32.959 the way we educate. I think women as they get older, 2:52:33.040 --> 2:52:35.120 get smarter, and they're like, oh wait a minute, what 2:52:35.280 --> 2:52:37.880 a call? And this has been you know, and men 2:52:38.240 --> 2:52:42.160 suddenly realize, oh, I'm not quite the dominant gorgeous stud 2:52:42.240 --> 2:52:44.800 I thought I was. Well, if their confidence drops, women's 2:52:44.800 --> 2:52:49.280 confidence rises, and so there you have men break up 2:52:49.680 --> 2:52:51.560 and they go hang with their budge and they watch 2:52:51.879 --> 2:52:54.360 ESPN and they drink beer and they don't even talk 2:52:54.360 --> 2:52:57.720 about it. Women women don't. Women rally around each other 2:52:57.920 --> 2:53:00.360 and can live without a man. It's the men who 2:53:00.400 --> 2:53:03.520 are That's right, motherfucker's exactly. But that's the men who 2:53:03.560 --> 2:53:05.520 were weak. They don't want to admit it. No, it's 2:53:05.560 --> 2:53:08.400 not that they're weak. I mean, I think again, they're 2:53:08.480 --> 2:53:11.200 just not given the tools. They're not educated, they're not 2:53:11.600 --> 2:53:14.160 shown how to age, they're not shown how to live 2:53:14.520 --> 2:53:18.600 and have bigger women are taught how to survive in 2:53:18.720 --> 2:53:21.920 ways that men aren't, and vice versa. You know. So 2:53:22.080 --> 2:53:23.360 this is what I'm talking about goes back to what 2:53:23.400 --> 2:53:25.279 I'm saying earlier. We need to change the way we educated. 2:53:25.640 --> 2:53:28.880 We can all have happy health. I agree with you, 2:53:29.680 --> 2:53:32.520 better taught to go, I'll be hunters. But that's about it. 2:53:33.760 --> 2:53:35.480 You know. It's funny you should say that because I 2:53:35.720 --> 2:53:39.560 suddenly had this sort of realization very recently. I was 2:53:39.640 --> 2:53:42.880 watching a TV show and it was about the Vikings, 2:53:43.000 --> 2:53:45.680 and and men were getting sent off to you know, 2:53:45.800 --> 2:53:48.440 to fight, and it was brutal, and I was like, God, 2:53:48.440 --> 2:53:50.480 I think those those times, it must have been horrendous. 2:53:50.480 --> 2:53:51.800 And then it made me think of all the men 2:53:51.879 --> 2:53:54.480 that get sent off to this day into war. And 2:53:54.600 --> 2:53:58.520 men are sort of like they are educated to to 2:53:59.200 --> 2:54:01.320 shut something off from themselves so that they will be 2:54:01.400 --> 2:54:03.280 willing to go and fight for their countries, you know, 2:54:03.480 --> 2:54:07.080 and get into these terrifying situations that never really happens 2:54:07.120 --> 2:54:10.440 to women. Not really again sweeping generalizations. There's plenty of 2:54:10.440 --> 2:54:13.840 women in the services and and so on, but you know, 2:54:14.720 --> 2:54:17.320 sort of over the last few centuries, men have been 2:54:18.040 --> 2:54:20.520 taught a certain way so that they will mindlessly go 2:54:20.640 --> 2:54:23.880 in and and and fight to their deaths. And and 2:54:24.040 --> 2:54:27.080 we that that society has changed slightly since then. And 2:54:27.320 --> 2:54:29.080 think it's also changed because I grew up in an 2:54:29.080 --> 2:54:31.800 era of a draft where it kind of crossed classes, 2:54:32.040 --> 2:54:34.760 where now it's an all volunteer army where the educating 2:54:34.840 --> 2:54:39.000 which tend not to go. Okay, But you've traveled around 2:54:39.040 --> 2:54:41.920 the world, where's the best or most exciting place, her 2:54:41.959 --> 2:54:44.360 favorite place you've been? Well, again, I don't believe in best. 2:54:44.480 --> 2:54:47.600 To be honest, I don't I really really fight that 2:54:47.720 --> 2:54:50.600 idea of all every fiber of my being, because like 2:54:50.680 --> 2:54:52.760 I come from a family where my dad marks everything 2:54:52.800 --> 2:54:55.760 out of ten. It drives me insane. To me, I 2:54:55.840 --> 2:54:59.840 feel like life is always surprising. You can go like 2:55:00.000 --> 2:55:03.400 you could go to Paris and have a dreadful experience. 2:55:03.520 --> 2:55:06.879 Hard to imagine, of course, So when you say what's 2:55:06.920 --> 2:55:09.480 the best, it's just what I guess is the most 2:55:09.600 --> 2:55:12.520 enjoyable on any given day. Yeah, and everywhere I go 2:55:12.640 --> 2:55:15.640 as a musician, and I've traveled almost everywhere at this point, 2:55:16.320 --> 2:55:19.640 I always managed to have an extraordinary, unique experience. And 2:55:19.760 --> 2:55:25.160 even if sometimes it's fraught with difficulty or there's an unpleasantry, overall, 2:55:25.280 --> 2:55:28.640 I just find everywhere I go fascinating. It's and travel 2:55:28.800 --> 2:55:31.800 has been the greatest privilege of my entire life. To 2:55:31.959 --> 2:55:34.800 go to the cities, to countries and see how other 2:55:34.840 --> 2:55:40.080 people live, how they think, is really really fascinating, endlessly 2:55:40.160 --> 2:55:42.760 fascinating to me. Well, I have a friend who was 2:55:42.879 --> 2:55:46.240 the photographer for Led Zeppelin, and he says, I've been 2:55:46.280 --> 2:55:49.080 around the world and I've seen nothing. So are you 2:55:49.160 --> 2:55:51.600 the type then that he's a fool. Of course, my 2:55:51.720 --> 2:55:54.360 question is he also was staying up all night developing 2:55:54.400 --> 2:55:56.879 film in the film era, so the band could wake 2:55:56.959 --> 2:55:58.920 up and see the photos from the night before, so 2:55:58.959 --> 2:56:00.720 it wasn't totally his fault. But there are a lot 2:56:00.800 --> 2:56:03.600 of people they go, they go from the bus to 2:56:03.680 --> 2:56:05.680 the hotel to the gig, and they don't really see anything. 2:56:05.920 --> 2:56:08.000 Are you the type of person who takes advantage in 2:56:08.040 --> 2:56:10.959 these very I try. I try always to get up early, 2:56:11.040 --> 2:56:13.920 like you know, We'll have traveled over you know, from 2:56:14.200 --> 2:56:17.199 I don't know New York to to South after Cape 2:56:17.240 --> 2:56:19.800 Town for a random example, and we've had no sleep, 2:56:19.840 --> 2:56:22.160 but I'll still get up after two hours to go 2:56:22.520 --> 2:56:24.360 on safari because I know this will never happen to 2:56:24.400 --> 2:56:26.680 me again. You know. We get to Istanbul, same thing, 2:56:26.760 --> 2:56:28.720 We've been traveling all night, but you get the opportunity 2:56:28.720 --> 2:56:30.080 to go to the Blue Mosque, you know, and have 2:56:30.240 --> 2:56:34.000 your mind blown. It's just I feel it's really important, 2:56:34.400 --> 2:56:37.880 you know too, to take advantage of those moments where 2:56:37.959 --> 2:56:41.959 you really get shown so much and it does shift 2:56:42.040 --> 2:56:45.320 your perspective so much. Absolutely. One of the problems you 2:56:45.360 --> 2:56:48.120 know with America is people haven't been anywhere and they 2:56:48.120 --> 2:56:50.680 think it's the greatest. I mean talk very minor things. 2:56:51.040 --> 2:56:54.320 You go to a European or you know, UK, it's 2:56:54.360 --> 2:56:56.760 finally coming to America. They have the dual flush toilet. 2:56:57.080 --> 2:57:01.000 I mean, that's a good idea. Okay, they just recently 2:57:01.040 --> 2:57:03.920 come to America where they can change the price of 2:57:04.000 --> 2:57:08.720 the gas electronically. These are not major things, but everybody 2:57:08.760 --> 2:57:10.800 in the United States give its Oh where we are, 2:57:11.160 --> 2:57:13.560 it couldn't be any better where. It's much better in 2:57:13.600 --> 2:57:18.400 many other places, of course. But then there's also incredibly beautiful, 2:57:18.720 --> 2:57:24.120 precious things about the US, which you know, for me 2:57:24.240 --> 2:57:27.360 as an immigrant, you know, coming here, my entire career 2:57:27.440 --> 2:57:29.680 is down to America. Like I will never forget that. 2:57:29.800 --> 2:57:34.000 I have deep, deep love for this country. And a 2:57:34.120 --> 2:57:36.200 lot of people in the rest of the world take 2:57:36.320 --> 2:57:39.200 swings of America for a lot of different reasons, you know. 2:57:39.480 --> 2:57:43.119 But I always describe America as being in a really 2:57:43.160 --> 2:57:45.440 innocent like everybody's like, no, it's just vulgar. No, it's 2:57:45.480 --> 2:57:50.440 not vulgar. It's innocent because what of the population has 2:57:50.520 --> 2:57:53.040 never traversed outside the national boundaries. And like you say, 2:57:54.000 --> 2:57:56.640 everyone believes that they're the best in America, that they've 2:57:56.680 --> 2:57:59.080 got the best country, and and you know, one would 2:57:59.120 --> 2:58:01.920 argue that's not the anymore, you know, and and that 2:58:02.480 --> 2:58:05.840 is a great sadness. But also hey, welcome to the 2:58:05.920 --> 2:58:08.120 rest of the world. We're exactly We're all the same, 2:58:08.200 --> 2:58:11.000 We're just all trying to figure everything out. And um, 2:58:11.480 --> 2:58:15.160 I think that what's what is both awful about the Internet, 2:58:15.360 --> 2:58:17.640 but what's also so great about it is it will 2:58:18.040 --> 2:58:20.680 and it is slowly impacting America and changing the way 2:58:20.720 --> 2:58:24.240 people think, and everyone's becoming a bit more educated about 2:58:24.280 --> 2:58:26.360 other ways of life. It doesn't feel like that right 2:58:26.440 --> 2:58:29.760 now for obvious reasons, but I think ultimately over the 2:58:29.840 --> 2:58:33.000 next thirty, forty, fifty years whatever, that America is going 2:58:33.080 --> 2:58:36.600 to change all for the better. Now, in the thirty 2:58:37.879 --> 2:58:40.800 years you have left, what would you like to accomplish 2:58:40.959 --> 2:58:44.400 your do I want to continue to travel as much 2:58:44.440 --> 2:58:48.640 as possible, That is my biggest desire. And not to 2:58:48.920 --> 2:58:52.520 lose my curiosity. I want to remain curious if and 2:58:52.840 --> 2:58:57.240 to keep and to try and nurture courage. I think 2:58:57.720 --> 2:59:01.440 that what looks like that I will continue to try 2:59:01.600 --> 2:59:05.279 new things that I will try and and meet people 2:59:06.440 --> 2:59:09.879 and without judgment, you know, and try and listen, try, 2:59:09.959 --> 2:59:13.080 and I want to be a better listener. That's that's 2:59:13.080 --> 2:59:15.120 a big thing for me. I like, I want to 2:59:15.400 --> 2:59:18.280 be in service rather than serving myself. You know what. 2:59:18.320 --> 2:59:20.600 I'm in a in distribart. I've done nothing but served 2:59:20.600 --> 2:59:23.680 myself for twenty odd years, you know, and I want 2:59:23.720 --> 2:59:26.920 to change that as much as possible as my life progresses. 2:59:27.800 --> 2:59:30.640 I want to be in service. Okay, I call you 2:59:30.840 --> 2:59:33.040 up or I text you, and I say, let's go 2:59:33.160 --> 2:59:37.320 to I need to write to there. No, no, no, uh, 2:59:38.200 --> 2:59:39.440 we're gonna go. I want to take you to this 2:59:39.600 --> 2:59:44.200 restaurant where you know they serve bird eggs and all that. 2:59:44.280 --> 2:59:47.560 Are you say, I'm into it a new experience. Oh yeah, 2:59:48.120 --> 2:59:51.480 and I've eaten some terrible things, but I always want 2:59:51.520 --> 2:59:53.720 to try. I don't want to be that person who's 2:59:53.800 --> 2:59:57.400 scared to try because I've discovered incredible things that I 2:59:57.440 --> 2:59:59.760 didn't think I would like. Forgetting food, but just looking 2:59:59.800 --> 3:00:02.320 at the situation in general. Have you ever said yes 3:00:02.400 --> 3:00:04.760 to something and said, oh that was a big mistake. Yes? 3:00:05.400 --> 3:00:09.880 Do you remember anything? Yes? Space Mountain and Disneyland. I 3:00:09.959 --> 3:00:11.720 said yes, and I went on it and I wished 3:00:11.760 --> 3:00:15.440 to hudn't said yes. I really hated it. Well, the 3:00:15.520 --> 3:00:17.760 funny thing about it is I didn't go on Space 3:00:17.840 --> 3:00:23.800 Mountain until about you know, sometimes like then in this century. Okay, 3:00:24.440 --> 3:00:27.000 you know, they'd say Disneyland's a happiest place on Earth, 3:00:27.000 --> 3:00:29.280 and no, it's the most miserable place there. It's a 3:00:29.360 --> 3:00:31.400 place where I would never need go. I like to 3:00:31.480 --> 3:00:33.480 do everything in life once just so I can talk 3:00:33.480 --> 3:00:35.240 about it. So I rent there. It was great or 3:00:35.280 --> 3:00:38.320 it sucked whatever. But I was not a Disneyland person. 3:00:38.400 --> 3:00:40.760 But I went with my nephews and we went on 3:00:40.920 --> 3:00:44.320 Space Mountain. I'm not a big roller coaster person. Whatever. 3:00:44.840 --> 3:00:47.080 But the fact that the roller coaster was underground, you know, 3:00:47.080 --> 3:00:50.280 because most of the rides at Disneyland are disappointing as rides, 3:00:50.520 --> 3:00:53.800 I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, I wouldn't say. See, 3:00:53.800 --> 3:00:57.480 I didn't find disney Disneyland rights disappointing. Far from it. 3:00:57.520 --> 3:01:00.560 I really enjoyed myself. However, my I did not find 3:01:00.640 --> 3:01:02.640 it the happiest place on Earth. I found it one 3:01:02.680 --> 3:01:04.840 of the most miserable places on Earth. I was engulfed 3:01:04.879 --> 3:01:09.120 in children's farts the entire time I was there. I 3:01:09.280 --> 3:01:11.400 hated standing for an hour and a half for a 3:01:11.480 --> 3:01:13.600 two minute, right, you know. But when I go into 3:01:13.640 --> 3:01:17.320 Space Mountain, I knew that it was like the prim right. 3:01:17.440 --> 3:01:19.240 Everyone was like, this is going to blow your mind. 3:01:19.680 --> 3:01:22.080 And I I honestly thought I was gonna have a 3:01:22.320 --> 3:01:27.520 heart attack. Really, yes, that was awful. That's one thing 3:01:27.560 --> 3:01:29.280 I remember. They had a they're still there. They have 3:01:29.320 --> 3:01:31.440 something called the Revolution. Maybe they're going to tear it 3:01:31.520 --> 3:01:36.000 Down's original roller coaster at Magic Mountain and the seventies. 3:01:36.040 --> 3:01:38.040 It was the first roller coaster that went upside down. 3:01:38.879 --> 3:01:40.280 So I remember getting on. It would go up a 3:01:40.320 --> 3:01:43.120 little hill, gonna curve and then and you're there. Then 3:01:43.200 --> 3:01:45.160 you were You're there. I am so freaked up. You 3:01:45.240 --> 3:01:47.880 can't get off. It's like there, It's like there's nothing 3:01:48.000 --> 3:01:51.039 I can do. But I like being on the little teacups. 3:01:51.240 --> 3:01:56.800 I feel safe vomit cups. Really, oh man, it was 3:01:56.800 --> 3:02:00.160 a really that was one of the original rides. But um, 3:02:00.680 --> 3:02:03.520 music drove the culture in the era that you grew 3:02:03.640 --> 3:02:06.440 up in, an I do not believe music drives the 3:02:06.520 --> 3:02:09.440 culture at this particularly do. I just think there's no 3:02:10.160 --> 3:02:14.760 common music driving the entire culture, if that makes any sense. 3:02:14.800 --> 3:02:17.920 I think music has a big an influence now than 3:02:17.959 --> 3:02:23.039 it arguably ever has. But it's all, you know, fractionalized 3:02:23.120 --> 3:02:24.560 or what's the word. I'm looking you know, I get 3:02:24.600 --> 3:02:27.160 what you're saying, you know, they're all these different niches. 3:02:27.600 --> 3:02:28.920 Why do you think it has as much. I mean, 3:02:28.959 --> 3:02:31.080 if I go back to the sixties, a rock star 3:02:31.120 --> 3:02:33.280 would say something and beyond the radio and it would 3:02:33.360 --> 3:02:35.760 change thinking in the role in general. I don't think 3:02:35.800 --> 3:02:37.879 that happens. No, it doesn't have the same cultural impact 3:02:37.920 --> 3:02:41.160 because everyone's not listening to the same one artist. You know, 3:02:41.200 --> 3:02:43.800 when Elvis was singing, we were all listening to Elvis. 3:02:43.920 --> 3:02:45.920 You know, not you were too well, I was too young. 3:02:46.000 --> 3:02:48.199 But I'm I'm trying to talk talk to It's okay, 3:02:48.200 --> 3:02:54.040 but I gotta bust you every chance I have. I 3:02:54.080 --> 3:02:56.600 gotta wake up. I gotta take some of that speed 3:02:56.680 --> 3:03:00.320 to get in here. So I take my chances from 3:03:00.400 --> 3:03:03.200 female whenever I can get up full respect. Okay. So 3:03:03.440 --> 3:03:07.320 in any event, you're you're saying that it's not driving 3:03:07.360 --> 3:03:09.240 the culture like it used in the days of Elvis. Well, 3:03:09.280 --> 3:03:11.920 single artists and bands are not. They don't have the 3:03:11.959 --> 3:03:15.040 same cultural impact. But music has never been more listened 3:03:15.080 --> 3:03:18.560 to ever historically speaking. I agree. But do you play 3:03:19.000 --> 3:03:21.560 at home? Do you play music? Yes? And what do 3:03:21.640 --> 3:03:25.440 you play? I listened to all kinds of music. I 3:03:25.480 --> 3:03:27.240 mean that sounds like such a copype I really do. 3:03:27.840 --> 3:03:31.480 And I've just taken very recently too. Instead of like 3:03:31.640 --> 3:03:36.080 sort of of creating my listening habits recently, I've just 3:03:36.160 --> 3:03:39.039 put my I've just turned my phone on and put 3:03:39.120 --> 3:03:41.760 it through this system and just listen to anything from 3:03:41.840 --> 3:03:45.080 my playlist that the phone dictates, and it's been extraordinary. 3:03:45.080 --> 3:03:48.480 I've loved it. But these are songs that you originally picked. Well, 3:03:48.520 --> 3:03:50.920 there's certainly albums that I've picked. Yeah, But like I said, 3:03:50.959 --> 3:03:52.600 I listened to classical, I listened to you Azz, I 3:03:52.640 --> 3:03:54.400 listened to blues, I listened to POPA listen to rock, 3:03:54.440 --> 3:03:56.280 I listen to heavy metal. I mean, I will listen 3:03:56.400 --> 3:03:58.520 to anything, but I get overwhelmed. I mean it's like 3:03:58.560 --> 3:04:00.640 if you go on Spotify or any of the services 3:04:01.080 --> 3:04:02.960 and you listen to the new music and they break 3:04:03.000 --> 3:04:05.720 it down by genre, and you say, okay, there's fifty 3:04:05.760 --> 3:04:08.840 country tracks, fifty dance tracks, and if you listen to fifty, 3:04:09.240 --> 3:04:11.560 you'll find one or two good ones, and you start 3:04:11.600 --> 3:04:15.200 to get overwhelmed, you know, and a lot of times 3:04:15.240 --> 3:04:17.400 you'll find something go you know, recently, well, is anybody 3:04:17.440 --> 3:04:19.800 else I like this? As anybody else like that? There's 3:04:19.840 --> 3:04:23.200 no coherence to the culture. That's true, but is that 3:04:23.280 --> 3:04:25.520 about them? I'm not sure that's about that. I think 3:04:27.720 --> 3:04:30.480 I hate being told what to do. But it goes 3:04:30.520 --> 3:04:32.800 back to what we're talking about earlier in terms of argument. 3:04:33.360 --> 3:04:35.360 We live in an era where everyone has their own 3:04:35.520 --> 3:04:38.440 facts in their own lives, which is almost a tower 3:04:38.520 --> 3:04:42.920 of Babel society. And even with television, we're in the 3:04:42.959 --> 3:04:45.480 golden age of television and is there are a lot 3:04:45.560 --> 3:04:49.120 fewer television shows than there are music shows. But even 3:04:49.240 --> 3:04:52.520 then we'll find well, we can't talk because we didn't 3:04:52.560 --> 3:04:55.879 see the same shows, we didn't see the same movies. Okay, 3:04:56.200 --> 3:05:00.400 so there's no community fiber. No, that's true, But we 3:05:00.520 --> 3:05:03.039 don't know yet where that's going to go. That might 3:05:03.120 --> 3:05:05.640 go somewhere fantastic, We just don't know yet. Well, I 3:05:05.920 --> 3:05:08.959 think I believe it's going to go along the lines 3:05:09.200 --> 3:05:11.640 of americ at large, which is winners and losers. I 3:05:11.760 --> 3:05:16.640 believe we have an inherent desire to be with other 3:05:16.680 --> 3:05:18.560 people like you talk about going out to breakfast or 3:05:18.560 --> 3:05:20.400 dinner or whatever, or it' to be able to say, 3:05:20.440 --> 3:05:24.320 oh I saw that show. It sucked, Okay, And therefore 3:05:24.640 --> 3:05:26.560 there's a lot of rabble rousing from people who are 3:05:26.600 --> 3:05:29.480 not successful. But the reasons if you look at the 3:05:29.520 --> 3:05:31.800 movie business, like and I don't go to the movies. 3:05:31.840 --> 3:05:33.879 First of they don't start when you want them to start. 3:05:34.120 --> 3:05:35.680 And I have so much I don't have any time, 3:05:35.720 --> 3:05:37.480 and I have so many options at home on the 3:05:37.879 --> 3:05:41.199 flat screen. But if you look at the weekly grosses, 3:05:41.640 --> 3:05:44.879 you know, Black Panther well far eclips all the other 3:05:44.959 --> 3:05:47.520 movies combined. And I think part of the people say, oh, yeah, 3:05:47.520 --> 3:05:50.520 I saw that good bad. Otherwise, I think there's a 3:05:50.600 --> 3:05:53.960 desire for community. There is a desire for community. But 3:05:54.040 --> 3:05:56.920 at the same time, I do believe in the principle 3:05:57.200 --> 3:06:01.480 of evolution. I have faith in evolution that evolution will 3:06:01.480 --> 3:06:05.160 sort this out sooner or later. I mean, every generation 3:06:05.320 --> 3:06:08.000 moans about the new generation that's in place, you know, 3:06:09.040 --> 3:06:12.640 And I feel that we always harp on about how 3:06:12.760 --> 3:06:17.160 things once were, forgetting that evolution has always like I 3:06:17.320 --> 3:06:19.400 have better life than my mom did, and my mom 3:06:19.480 --> 3:06:21.680 has a better life than my granny did. And I 3:06:21.760 --> 3:06:24.800 have to assume that my all my friends kids will 3:06:24.840 --> 3:06:27.000 have a better life than and than we did. And 3:06:27.320 --> 3:06:30.640 I think that's a great thing. And I think we 3:06:30.800 --> 3:06:34.760 can all sort of like pick over the carcass of 3:06:34.879 --> 3:06:37.400 what once was, or we can embrace what is and 3:06:37.520 --> 3:06:39.200 I want to be and what is I'm going to 3:06:39.240 --> 3:06:41.520 embrace what it is. Well, I'm gonna argue with you, Okay, 3:06:41.800 --> 3:06:43.680 in my generation, I know a lot of people are 3:06:43.720 --> 3:06:46.680 not doing as well as their parents. Okay, the baby boomers, 3:06:46.879 --> 3:06:49.080 your parents had a lot. Well, you're you're talking about 3:06:49.080 --> 3:06:52.400 economics though, right, you're talking about house and money okay, 3:06:52.400 --> 3:06:57.720 and you're talking about rights freedoms. Well, knowledge, I would argue, 3:06:57.760 --> 3:07:00.800 engay people can get married in America is wonderful. I 3:07:00.920 --> 3:07:02.680 gret a lot of that to MTV. People saw a 3:07:02.760 --> 3:07:05.120 rainbow of colors there and therefore they were you know, 3:07:05.200 --> 3:07:08.600 there's less racism, etcetera. But we live in a country 3:07:08.720 --> 3:07:11.160 the way there isn't less racism. But that's a whole 3:07:11.200 --> 3:07:16.800 lot of back to that. I believe in America there 3:07:17.040 --> 3:07:19.920 is less racism, but you have a very vocal minority 3:07:20.240 --> 3:07:23.360 who was afraid of losing. I have to disagree. You're 3:07:23.400 --> 3:07:26.600 talking from a very white, privileged position. No, I'm saying 3:07:26.680 --> 3:07:29.520 that if you go back decades and you saw an 3:07:29.600 --> 3:07:33.320 interracial couple walking down the street, chances are there to 3:07:33.440 --> 3:07:37.560 be sneers or comments comments. I believe there are less 3:07:37.600 --> 3:07:40.600 and now we're all victims of our own experience. And 3:07:40.720 --> 3:07:43.760 I'm not saying there's not racism, there's not anti semitism, 3:07:43.920 --> 3:07:48.480 there's not sexism. But I believe, but I believe as 3:07:48.520 --> 3:07:52.600 a result of media, there's a certain level of enlightenment. 3:07:52.800 --> 3:07:57.039 I view as a result of the economic disparity. Okay, 3:07:57.959 --> 3:08:00.959 the people who have been left out, whether through their 3:08:01.000 --> 3:08:03.520 own fault or not through room fault, have started to 3:08:03.600 --> 3:08:09.200 rebel around the world Half Brexit, Trump, etcetera. And it's 3:08:09.280 --> 3:08:14.039 focused on those people. Unfortunately, with that has come racism. 3:08:14.320 --> 3:08:15.760 And I don't want to comment on the rest of 3:08:15.760 --> 3:08:17.400 the rule because I'm not as much of an expert, 3:08:17.800 --> 3:08:21.080 but in America, I would believe pound for pound there's 3:08:21.160 --> 3:08:24.680 less racism and less homophobia than there was. Not that 3:08:24.760 --> 3:08:27.840 there isn't very vocal racism homophobia, but I think we're 3:08:28.360 --> 3:08:31.000 you know, it's like Jerry Springer, who used to be 3:08:31.080 --> 3:08:33.879 the mayor of Cleveland, Okay, before he had his insane show, 3:08:34.600 --> 3:08:37.320 and he's not a stupid guy. He says, the liberals 3:08:37.360 --> 3:08:40.240 always win in the end, Okay, all the things that 3:08:40.320 --> 3:08:44.119 were unthinkable, you know, abortion, gay marriage, etcetera, etcetera. They're happening. 3:08:44.160 --> 3:08:48.560 Eventually the rest of the world wakes up. Well, I 3:08:48.600 --> 3:08:50.520 don't even notice where to start without. To be honest, 3:08:50.640 --> 3:08:54.640 we'll start anywhere, but I'll start with have you I 3:08:54.680 --> 3:08:56.520 don't know what that is. It's a documentary about the 3:08:56.520 --> 3:09:01.800 penal system here in America. No, have you seen you're 3:09:01.879 --> 3:09:03.959 making I am not your Negro back, but you're making 3:09:04.080 --> 3:09:07.080 the point that a whole generation of African Americans were 3:09:07.080 --> 3:09:09.440 wiping up by putting them in jails. It's nothing what 3:09:09.560 --> 3:09:12.720 you're making. I agree totally. You know that there's a 3:09:12.800 --> 3:09:16.960 lot of endemic problems. I'm not apologizing for them. But 3:09:17.120 --> 3:09:21.160 what I'm saying is that I believe that generally it's 3:09:21.200 --> 3:09:26.160 going Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Well, again, it's complex, 3:09:26.200 --> 3:09:28.360 isn't it. There are some people who get left behind this, 3:09:28.520 --> 3:09:32.400 but generally speaking, our generation has it better than the 3:09:32.640 --> 3:09:37.560 previous generation. And then there are parts of our society 3:09:37.600 --> 3:09:40.840 who are being left behind. And that's blacks and and 3:09:41.480 --> 3:09:44.520 people of color appressively so, but it's also white. I 3:09:44.560 --> 3:09:46.359 don't want to make this, as you know, white apologist, 3:09:46.520 --> 3:09:48.440 but just to illuminate the point, this is how Trump 3:09:48.520 --> 3:09:51.160 got elected. There are people as a result of the 3:09:51.280 --> 3:09:56.160 economic changes they in globalization, they don't have if you're 3:09:56.240 --> 3:09:59.119 left behind. And and then the crazy thing stamething with Brexit. 3:09:59.280 --> 3:10:01.560 Their solution is, let's chet back to the past, and 3:10:01.640 --> 3:10:04.320 the past is never coming back. That's Trump's approach to 3:10:04.480 --> 3:10:06.680 It's it's very like I just did never believe you 3:10:06.720 --> 3:10:08.760 can look back. I think you must always look forward 3:10:08.760 --> 3:10:11.080 to you know. Well, the scary thing is I mean, 3:10:11.440 --> 3:10:13.480 I certainly lived through the sixties of the Vietnam War 3:10:13.560 --> 3:10:17.160 in the draft, but since then in America, this is 3:10:17.200 --> 3:10:19.920 the first time where every you're addicted to the news 3:10:20.760 --> 3:10:23.720 and it's uh, it's just like when the wall fell, 3:10:23.840 --> 3:10:26.119 when the wall fell in Berlin and you were there. 3:10:26.320 --> 3:10:28.680 We were of the illusion in America the other doctor, 3:10:28.720 --> 3:10:31.720 democracy will reign. And now you have booting, you know, 3:10:31.840 --> 3:10:35.520 assassinating spies in a different country, and we have you know, 3:10:36.800 --> 3:10:39.440 you know, we have the head of the country for 3:10:39.600 --> 3:10:42.400 life in China. It's you know, the world is going 3:10:42.520 --> 3:10:47.400 to it. You know. It's exactly as my dad says. 3:10:47.480 --> 3:10:50.240 And I actually feel like I have to cling onto 3:10:50.320 --> 3:10:54.480 this analogy, which is, you know, evolution happens, whether we 3:10:54.560 --> 3:10:58.200 like it or not. It's just what occurs when you 3:10:58.320 --> 3:11:02.039 leave humans on a planet for long enough, they will evolve. 3:11:02.800 --> 3:11:06.240 And there's always moments, he said, It's just like it's 3:11:06.280 --> 3:11:08.800 like tight, it's like title shifts, you know, you that's 3:11:08.920 --> 3:11:11.640 the tide gets sucked back for a moment, and then 3:11:11.680 --> 3:11:14.520 it surges forward, and it surges for further forward than 3:11:14.560 --> 3:11:17.520 it did before. And that's that's always what my dad 3:11:17.600 --> 3:11:19.520 says to try and calm me down when I'm getting 3:11:19.600 --> 3:11:23.200 hysterical and and full of desperate depression about the way 3:11:23.240 --> 3:11:25.240 the world is turning. He's like, it's it will turn back, 3:11:26.320 --> 3:11:29.480 generally speaking, Are you an optimist? I used to be 3:11:29.600 --> 3:11:33.120 a terrible pessimist, and then something turned around when my 3:11:33.240 --> 3:11:35.480 mom died for me, like it was like a bolt 3:11:35.560 --> 3:11:38.000 from the blue I had. I was forced to change 3:11:38.040 --> 3:11:41.200 my thinking because if I hadn't changed my thinking, I 3:11:41.240 --> 3:11:45.840 would have died of grief. And and I I just 3:11:46.280 --> 3:11:49.080 decided me. I made a decision that the light because 3:11:49.080 --> 3:11:51.200 my mom had a lot of light in her. She 3:11:51.360 --> 3:11:53.200 was a real people pleaser, my mom because she'd been 3:11:53.240 --> 3:11:54.800 an orphan and she wants people to love her and 3:11:54.959 --> 3:11:58.360 like her, and so she brought light into every situation, 3:11:58.760 --> 3:12:00.200 and I used to annoy me, you know, as a 3:12:00.800 --> 3:12:04.760 moody teenager. It just fucking and irritated me. And then 3:12:04.800 --> 3:12:07.720 when she died, I realized that light is gone. You know, 3:12:07.840 --> 3:12:09.800 people would say to me at my mom's funeral. You 3:12:09.840 --> 3:12:12.720 know your mam always you never left your mom feeling worse. 3:12:12.879 --> 3:12:15.040 You always left your mom feeling better than you did 3:12:15.640 --> 3:12:18.040 before you bumped into her. And I just made this 3:12:18.200 --> 3:12:20.680 decision that I had to do something with my mom's light. 3:12:20.720 --> 3:12:23.640 I couldn't let it go and dissipate into nothing. That's 3:12:23.680 --> 3:12:25.360 I had to hold a bit of her light in me, 3:12:25.879 --> 3:12:29.120 and I used that to change the way I approached 3:12:29.200 --> 3:12:32.120 my life. It sounds really okay, but it's really true, 3:12:32.440 --> 3:12:35.360 and it was quite that conscious. It was conscious. Yeah, 3:12:35.440 --> 3:12:37.320 I was just like, I need to change the way 3:12:37.480 --> 3:12:40.119 I I don't want people to leave me feeling worse. 3:12:40.440 --> 3:12:42.200 I don't want to be a vibe crush. I don't 3:12:42.240 --> 3:12:44.920 want people to feel yucky around me. And you know, 3:12:44.959 --> 3:12:46.800 we're all aware of what that's like to bump into 3:12:46.879 --> 3:12:51.000 somebody who makes us feel disgusting. You know, whether they're irritable, 3:12:51.080 --> 3:12:53.520 whether they're depressed, whether they moan, whether they only talk 3:12:53.560 --> 3:12:55.640 about themselves. I don't know. There's a million one reasons 3:12:55.640 --> 3:12:58.080 why we don't like being around people. Yeah, And I 3:12:58.200 --> 3:13:00.040 was just like, I want to be a person in 3:13:00.120 --> 3:13:02.560 the world that makes people feel good. Again, I go 3:13:02.640 --> 3:13:04.600 back to this word of being in service, like I 3:13:04.800 --> 3:13:07.879 just I want to take my mom's light and give 3:13:07.959 --> 3:13:10.320 it to someone else so we can spread these particles 3:13:10.360 --> 3:13:14.360 of my amazing mother. When you talk about service, that's 3:13:14.480 --> 3:13:19.240 you know, twelve step language. Is that where you got it? Okay, 3:13:19.920 --> 3:13:23.560 and you never had a problem with Okay. That's not 3:13:23.640 --> 3:13:27.800 to say I won't develop one. I love alcohol. I 3:13:28.240 --> 3:13:30.200 had to stop drinking alcohol because I was definitely the 3:13:30.240 --> 3:13:32.560 type person who couldn't have only one. If you want 3:13:32.560 --> 3:13:34.240 to have one or two drinks, didn't you didn't call 3:13:34.280 --> 3:13:35.480 me you want to have the night of your life 3:13:35.680 --> 3:13:40.199 or attempt you know, Oh boy, I can tell story 3:13:40.240 --> 3:13:42.720 after story, and then then there's you know how I 3:13:43.000 --> 3:13:44.960 and then how I finally stopped, and I did not 3:13:45.160 --> 3:13:47.520 stop saying, oh, I'm never gonna I'm never gonna have 3:13:47.560 --> 3:13:49.920 another drink. It's just my life got way too crazy 3:13:50.520 --> 3:13:53.960 and no more, excuse me, I want to know more. 3:13:54.360 --> 3:13:56.560 This is a much longer story but I'll give you 3:13:56.840 --> 3:14:00.440 just the tip of it. Yeah, give me the cry. 3:14:01.520 --> 3:14:04.080 So this was nineteen This is a long time ago 3:14:05.600 --> 3:14:10.600 one going into two. And I had been stopped for 3:14:10.800 --> 3:14:14.119 drunk driving on the night that John Lennon got died. 3:14:14.920 --> 3:14:18.680 John jet shot and died. That's an amazing story unto itself. 3:14:19.360 --> 3:14:23.280 But I ultimately got a reckless driving as opposed to 3:14:23.400 --> 3:14:27.760 d u I and there's a condition with that where 3:14:27.879 --> 3:14:31.279 you can't drive within eight hours of having a drink. 3:14:32.000 --> 3:14:34.440 And in the time it took for that case to 3:14:34.600 --> 3:14:37.960 come to court, I had been stopped once again on 3:14:38.080 --> 3:14:40.360 the four oh five. In that particular case. The couple 3:14:40.440 --> 3:14:42.760 let me go, but I but I knew that I 3:14:42.840 --> 3:14:47.560 could be stopped. So once I got the reckless driving 3:14:47.959 --> 3:14:50.840 and I couldn't have a drink within eight hours of driving, 3:14:51.360 --> 3:14:55.960 I took that very serious. Okay, because you cannot be 3:14:56.040 --> 3:14:58.600 in Los Angeles without a driver's license. You have to move. 3:14:59.280 --> 3:15:02.880 This is pre uber, pre the train, etcetera. You can't 3:15:02.959 --> 3:15:06.080 do that. So no, I wouldn't you know, I would 3:15:06.120 --> 3:15:08.560 walk home from the bar or whatever. And the Los 3:15:08.600 --> 3:15:11.200 Angeles had something not that easy to say. I met 3:15:11.320 --> 3:15:14.039 a woman and at that big that was just when 3:15:14.120 --> 3:15:17.240 sushi was coming, and she lived in West Hollywood, and 3:15:20.160 --> 3:15:26.680 she bit me. Everybody's in you know, this is part 3:15:26.720 --> 3:15:28.800 of a sex. This is part of it during intercourse. 3:15:31.800 --> 3:15:34.160 Were what part of your boat did she bite that 3:15:34.400 --> 3:15:37.600 was on my neck? I believe the first time. And 3:15:38.040 --> 3:15:43.560 I immediately I like like, I like being frozen like you. Okay. 3:15:43.879 --> 3:15:47.760 I immediately just reacted, whoa that hurt? And she said, oh, 3:15:47.840 --> 3:15:49.960 it didn't hurt that bad. That was not the right 3:15:50.000 --> 3:15:56.160 answer for me. Okay, So she apologizes, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 3:15:56.440 --> 3:15:58.880 I'm really kind of freaked out. And for a couple 3:15:58.920 --> 3:16:01.360 of days things are sha and then she and she 3:16:01.440 --> 3:16:04.560 says it will never happen again, never happen again, okay. 3:16:04.959 --> 3:16:07.360 And I go to visit her, and the sushi bar 3:16:07.480 --> 3:16:10.800 was two blocks from her house, okay, And we come back. 3:16:12.160 --> 3:16:16.240 We come back and the same thing happens again. But 3:16:16.560 --> 3:16:20.240 I can't leave because I can't dry within eight hours 3:16:20.320 --> 3:16:24.720 of having a drink, You're stuck there. And I say, 3:16:25.360 --> 3:16:29.920 my life is way too complicated. I'm gonna stop drinking 3:16:30.080 --> 3:16:33.760 for now so I won't be in this situation. And 3:16:34.000 --> 3:16:39.520 then it was such a change, not drinking because I 3:16:39.600 --> 3:16:41.680 was not in a good spot in my life that 3:16:42.320 --> 3:16:43.760 it was such getting over the hurdle that when I 3:16:43.760 --> 3:16:45.280 got over the hurdle, I didn't want to drink again. 3:16:46.560 --> 3:16:49.120 But hold on. So when she beat you, it was 3:16:49.240 --> 3:16:53.760 during sex and she bat your neck and it was 3:16:53.840 --> 3:16:56.680 so painful that did she take a chunk out? Event 3:16:56.840 --> 3:16:59.600 she didn't take a chunk, but it was but it 3:16:59.760 --> 3:17:01.400 fell like there would be blood. It was not a 3:17:01.520 --> 3:17:05.039 playful bite. It was something very aggressive because you were 3:17:05.080 --> 3:17:09.880 such a good fuck. I'm trying to think, you know, 3:17:10.800 --> 3:17:12.680 you know, you go back into these I've been in 3:17:12.720 --> 3:17:15.520 a very long term relationship where I'd lived with a 3:17:15.560 --> 3:17:18.080 woman for years and that had ended and there was 3:17:18.200 --> 3:17:22.600 the rebound relationship, and this was the first kind of 3:17:22.680 --> 3:17:28.480 more serious relationship after the rebound relationship. So uh I 3:17:29.120 --> 3:17:33.040 And it's one of those situations where I don't know 3:17:33.080 --> 3:17:36.200 whether this is I'm wondering whether you've been on the 3:17:36.240 --> 3:17:39.480 opposite side where you're doing everything is normal, but the 3:17:39.600 --> 3:17:42.360 person is starting to say things that heighten your ange, 3:17:43.440 --> 3:17:47.520 Like I've got a great story, but it's like a holiday, 3:17:47.640 --> 3:17:49.680 Well you have to come meet my parents. Well it's 3:17:49.720 --> 3:17:51.560 one thing if I had been dating you for six 3:17:51.640 --> 3:17:53.040 months or a year. We've been going out for a 3:17:53.080 --> 3:17:56.000 couple of weeks. I don't need to meet your parents. 3:17:56.560 --> 3:17:59.480 So at some point I believe she sensed a little. 3:17:59.600 --> 3:18:01.480 This was not the first time she bit me, but 3:18:01.600 --> 3:18:03.680 the last time she bait me, I think, and I 3:18:03.800 --> 3:18:06.680 did leave. I think she sent some of my reluctance 3:18:06.680 --> 3:18:08.879 and it was a whatever. But the story you were 3:18:08.920 --> 3:18:11.200 going to tell, well, I was having sex once in 3:18:11.320 --> 3:18:16.360 my parents house with an older guy, and you know, 3:18:16.400 --> 3:18:17.959 we were trying to keep it on the download because 3:18:17.959 --> 3:18:20.280 my parents were sleeping upstairs, and we were in front 3:18:20.320 --> 3:18:23.960 of a fire in in my parents house. That was 3:18:24.040 --> 3:18:26.959 a cool fueled fire, but it had a glass pane, 3:18:27.640 --> 3:18:29.440 so you know that it was an enclosed fire with 3:18:29.520 --> 3:18:32.360 a glass front. So we're having sex anyway, and my 3:18:32.640 --> 3:18:36.280 knee falls onto the glass pane, and you know, he's 3:18:36.360 --> 3:18:38.680 humping me, and he's a big dude, and he's like, 3:18:39.520 --> 3:18:42.840 you know, making all the sexual signs, and I eventually go, 3:18:43.440 --> 3:18:47.520 I'm I'm burning up because my knee was burning on 3:18:47.640 --> 3:18:53.760 the glass and he went, yeah, me too. That was 3:18:53.840 --> 3:18:56.160 so low fi and I got really badly burned that 3:18:57.800 --> 3:19:00.680 over him. We could go on forever. They The amazing 3:19:00.840 --> 3:19:05.840 thing about you is I only know you by image, Okay, 3:19:06.040 --> 3:19:07.760 I mean I see you in the videos on the 3:19:08.080 --> 3:19:12.720 you know, in other media. You are completely different from 3:19:12.800 --> 3:19:17.920 what I thought you. It's all good for for some reason, 3:19:18.080 --> 3:19:21.560 and you will laugh hysterically. I thought you were somewhat 3:19:21.640 --> 3:19:29.400 demure in results. No, I mean I'd almost like to 3:19:29.640 --> 3:19:33.360 reel the whole podcast back and start with just the 3:19:33.400 --> 3:19:37.000 hell's a popping off the top of our head conversation first, 3:19:37.400 --> 3:19:39.200 because I was, you know, at first, I'm anxious. You know, 3:19:39.240 --> 3:19:40.880 I don't really know you what what will be the 3:19:40.920 --> 3:19:43.760 point that will stimulate you? And I realized it doesn't 3:19:44.000 --> 3:19:49.680 take that much, and it takes a lot. You know, 3:19:50.720 --> 3:19:54.000 today's me too world. I don't know where I can 3:19:54.040 --> 3:19:58.240 go there are we I meant stimulation in terms of 3:19:58.959 --> 3:20:02.600 getting you excited about the world at large? Is that 3:20:02.680 --> 3:20:07.600 what you mean? You meant it more you met it? Oh, Bob, 3:20:08.240 --> 3:20:12.199 come on, okay, I'm not now went through the mental 3:20:12.400 --> 3:20:15.119 roll index figuring out exactly what's going on here. You've 3:20:15.160 --> 3:20:17.959 been listening to Shirley Manson on the Bob Left Sets podcast. 3:20:18.000 --> 3:20:26.359 You were wonderful, Shirley. That wraps up this week's episode 3:20:26.400 --> 3:20:29.080 of the Bob Left Sets podcast. According to here at 3:20:29.120 --> 3:20:32.160 the tune In Studios in Venice, California, I hope you 3:20:32.280 --> 3:20:35.840 enjoyed my conversation with Shirley Manson about her life, career, 3:20:36.400 --> 3:20:40.480 used on relationships, sexuality, and so much more. I might 3:20:40.560 --> 3:20:44.080 still be blushing by next week's episode. As always, I'd 3:20:44.080 --> 3:20:45.880 love to know what you think of the show, so 3:20:46.120 --> 3:20:49.240 email me at Bob at left sets dot com. Until 3:20:49.320 --> 3:21:01.640 next time, I'm Bob Lefts to me exact and me