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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to this week's edition of The Bad

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Speaker 1: Left Sex Podcast. My guest this week is vocalist extraordinaire

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Speaker 1: lead singer of Garbage, Shirley Manson. Shirley, Okay, you're from Scotland.

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Speaker 1: We are really Scotland ignorant here. Okay, what's it like

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Speaker 1: growing up in Scotland. Well, you know, at the time,

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Speaker 1: it didn't feel so fantastic, but looking back on it

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Speaker 1: now I realized what a privilege it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: because it's a small island and it was a time

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Speaker 1: I was. I was born in sixty six, so I

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Speaker 1: grew up in the seventies and it was at a

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Speaker 1: time when the British government actually paid for education. They

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Speaker 1: put money into it and we all had government run

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Speaker 1: schools and they were and they were well funded. So

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Speaker 1: I had a great education I had. I came from

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Speaker 1: a family, three children. My mom and dad loved each

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Speaker 1: other until death did they part. And I think, now, no,

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Speaker 1: what I know, that's really unusual to certainly with the

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Speaker 1: younger generations. I mean, the only thing I I haven't

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Speaker 1: been to Scotland, but there was that movie and I

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Speaker 1: can't remember there was a famous movie maker talking about

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Speaker 1: the ice cream war in do you know that? Was

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Speaker 1: that Donny Boyle thing? God, I can't remember. But in

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Speaker 1: any event, where did you actually grow up in Scotland?

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Speaker 1: But how do you how do you pronounce that? Edinburgh? Edinburgh? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Ed okay? And what did your father do for a living?

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Speaker 1: My father was a university professor, really, and what did

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Speaker 1: he teach? He taught animal breeding in sort of genetics

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Speaker 1: and animal breeding, poultry breeding as well. He would come

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Speaker 1: home for dinner. Would he talk about that? Very rarely?

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Speaker 1: I mean he he as we got older, he would

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Speaker 1: talk about the genetic program because they were his sort

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Speaker 1: of university cloned Dolly the Sheep. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you remember that, but Dolly the Sheep. So that was

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Speaker 1: his faculty that really. Yeah. So he started to talk

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Speaker 1: up to us about genetics and we are so bored,

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Speaker 1: we can you know? Okay, So if I take you

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Speaker 1: out on the ranch with the animals, you're as clueless

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Speaker 1: as I am. Well, maybe not quite as clueless as you, Bob.

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Speaker 1: We got the Huber going at this point in time, okay.

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Speaker 1: And did your mother work outside of the house. My

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Speaker 1: mother sort of eventually as we were growing up when

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Speaker 1: we were teenagers. She's she became a medical reception as

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Speaker 1: she looked after a bunch of doctors. But she really

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Speaker 1: was pretty much a housewife, which is a terminology that's

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Speaker 1: thankfully becoming, you know, obsolete, but she she was. She

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Speaker 1: called herself a housewife, right, I guess you know now

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Speaker 1: they say, you know she works, but she works in

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Speaker 1: the home. But okay, so where are you in the

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Speaker 1: hierarchy of the middle child? The real messed up one

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Speaker 1: the middle of three? And who else is a boy

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Speaker 1: or a girl? All three girls? All three girls. I'm

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Speaker 1: a middle child too, so sorry, Okay, my older sister

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Speaker 1: she believes you can conquer the world, and my younger

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Speaker 1: sister is the baby could always trying to get out

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Speaker 1: of this, and I was kind of lost in the middle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had exactly the same experience. It's really I was

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Speaker 1: married to one who was also a middle kid. I

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Speaker 1: wonder whether that was part of the connection. Because you're

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Speaker 1: kind of overlooked. You feel you you're overlooked. I don't

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Speaker 1: think you actually are, but that's how I think I

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Speaker 1: perceived it. And I also got hand me done clothes

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Speaker 1: all the time. I never got new clothes. When I

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Speaker 1: was growing up, I was always my sister's clothes, and

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Speaker 1: by the time I had worn through the set of clothes,

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Speaker 1: my little sister got brand new clothes. So I mean

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Speaker 1: I was twisted, you know, yeah, yeah, the level of resentment.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have that problem because by older and younger

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Speaker 1: siblings were sisters. But I know, I know exactly what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about. And Okay, what kind of kid are

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Speaker 1: you growing up? Are you a rebellious kid? Are you

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, obey's orders. For the first sort

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Speaker 1: of twelve years of my life, I obeyed orders. I

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Speaker 1: was an incredibly devout a student, and I, you know,

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Speaker 1: had a great faith in Jesus, and I was interested

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Speaker 1: in religion and all kinds of things. I was very sweet,

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Speaker 1: pretty h sort of conventional kid, and then the hormones

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Speaker 1: kicked in and I went mental. Okay, did you go

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Speaker 1: to public school or did you go to Catholic school?

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Speaker 1: Well it's a good question because we call public schools

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Speaker 1: private school. We went to government funded You went to

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Speaker 1: government funded schools, but you had a strict Catholic family.

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Speaker 1: I did not. I came up in a Protestant family.

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Speaker 1: My dad was my Sunday school teacher, which also didn't

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Speaker 1: help my No, no, no, no, you can imagine. I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine. That kind of messed me up good too.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, but you were a big believer. I

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Speaker 1: was a huge believer. How about today you believe today?

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Speaker 1: I'm a nonbeliever now. And what was the transition? How

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Speaker 1: did you decide that there wasn't a little man in

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Speaker 1: this guy who was deciding whether you've been naughty or nice? Well,

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Speaker 1: it started off with just a sort of sudden observation

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Speaker 1: of the people in our church that we went that

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Speaker 1: we went to. I noticed that they did not adhere

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Speaker 1: to the principles that were, you know, ceremonized, and I

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Speaker 1: started to smell hypocrisy. And I then would meet people

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Speaker 1: who were nonbelievers who actually did seem to practice some

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Speaker 1: kind spiritual practice. We have that in government today. All

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Speaker 1: the people seemingly were anti abortion have had an abortion

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Speaker 1: themselves or their partners had an abortion. It's just crazy.

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Speaker 1: So in any event, you turned age twelve, the hormones

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Speaker 1: kicking and you freak out. What does that look like? Well, I,

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Speaker 1: having been a pretty good student, I just stopped paying

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Speaker 1: attention in school. I stopped going to school. I started smoking,

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Speaker 1: I started flirting with you know self, drugs. I became

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Speaker 1: interested in boys. I got involved in a youth theater

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Speaker 1: in a band A little bit slower in America, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of like the Little Rascals, if you know those

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Speaker 1: Saturday Morning Carly, there's a Truman officer and if you

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Speaker 1: skip school, they're gonna track you down. So you're skipping

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Speaker 1: school and your father was in the educational system. Was

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Speaker 1: anybody aware of the fact you were skipping school? Well

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Speaker 1: not at first, and actually it was my dad who

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Speaker 1: busted me in the end. Um. But no, the teachers

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Speaker 1: didn't really notice because of the way that our system

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Speaker 1: worked at that time. UM. So I'd always appear for registrations,

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Speaker 1: so you were there when they called the roll call,

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Speaker 1: and then I would just go home. But my my

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Speaker 1: my house was like jammed up against the playground of

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Speaker 1: the school, so I could just get home to my

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Speaker 1: bedroom in about five seconds. So it's very convenient for

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Speaker 1: skipping school until you had your father find out. He

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Speaker 1: came home one day unexpectedly and find me in my

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Speaker 1: bedroom with a bunch of pals smoking. I don't know

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Speaker 1: why else we were up to you went absolutely mental,

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Speaker 1: and he called the head master and he dubbed me in.

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Speaker 1: He was like, my child is here, she should be

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Speaker 1: at school. I'm sending her in to see you right now.

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Speaker 1: And he sent me to the head master and I got.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember what happened, but I got well royally punished.

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Speaker 1: I had to do like after school punishment and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. Well did it set you on a straight

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Speaker 1: course or did you continue to diverge from the straight

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Speaker 1: and arrow. I continue, even at fifty one, to diverge

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Speaker 1: from the straight and now. Well, it's kind of funny.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to diverge from the straight and arrow. We

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Speaker 1: live in it. I'm older than you are, but certainly

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Speaker 1: lived through the sixties. It was the opposite of group think,

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Speaker 1: and now there's total group think. And if you feel otherwise,

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Speaker 1: you're really scorned by society. You end up feeling like

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Speaker 1: a party of one. That's my experience. You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: really lucky, and that I don't have that experience. I

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Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about, and I think that

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Speaker 1: does exist, and it's becoming more and more prevalent. But

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Speaker 1: I was really lucky and that I had a very

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Speaker 1: strong minded father who had very definitive ideas, and I

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Speaker 1: would fight against him over and over and over again

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Speaker 1: for years, to the point where I learned to hold

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Speaker 1: my owner in an argument. If he didn't, you know,

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Speaker 1: agree with me, that was cool. If I didn't agree

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Speaker 1: with him, it was cool. He so he was really

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Speaker 1: fair that way, and so I just learned to have

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Speaker 1: to develop my own system of ideas and beliefs. Do

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Speaker 1: you think he was doing that to inculcate that behavior

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Speaker 1: in yourself or do you think he was really rigid

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Speaker 1: and you were just a rebel? Neither of the bob.

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Speaker 1: I think he is quite rebellious my dad. Is he

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Speaker 1: still with us, Yes, he's still with us. He's eighty one,

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Speaker 1: and he's very full of vigor and as a rigorous thinker.

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Speaker 1: And I think he enjoyed being challenged by me, because

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Speaker 1: he often, of course when you have young children, he

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Speaker 1: would browbeat me easily for years and years and years,

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Speaker 1: and then eventually, as I became a little more skilled

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Speaker 1: at arguing in my late teens, he I think he enjoyed.

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Speaker 1: It was like it was like a sport for him,

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Speaker 1: And it actually is a little bit of a sport

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Speaker 1: for me now like I can argue with anyone. I

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Speaker 1: don't take it personally. I don't get upset when people

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Speaker 1: don't agree with me. I find it really interesting. I

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Speaker 1: love to argue, and no one wants to argue anymore.

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Speaker 1: Like it's really when you when you give a contrary opinion,

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Speaker 1: it's like spinal tap person. No, my amp goes to eleven.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to do it for my

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Speaker 1: own personal aggrandization, whatever aggrandization, whatever the word might be.

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Speaker 1: It's it's fun to wrestle and tease out the issues

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Speaker 1: and makes me think afterward. But today everyone thinks they

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Speaker 1: have the answer. They can't see two different sides of

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Speaker 1: the coin, and they're very you. You look like the

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Speaker 1: curmudgeon when you go out there and you disagree with people. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of factors at play. I

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Speaker 1: think some people feel that they are not they don't

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Speaker 1: have conviction necessarily and what they believe like no matter,

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Speaker 1: I am wrong all the time, but I do have conviction.

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Speaker 1: I believe really strongly and what I believe, and um,

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Speaker 1: I think some people get shaken when you disagree with them,

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Speaker 1: and or they feel like they're losing an argument if

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Speaker 1: you even challenge the argument, and they've got this some

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Speaker 1: weird idea about how they must win. They must win.

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Speaker 1: Society's put all this pressure and must to be winners.

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Speaker 1: You can't be a loser. I don't mind being a loser.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's really well described. But will you change

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Speaker 1: your opinion all the time? It makes me crazy if

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Speaker 1: you change your opinion because I'm writing my opinions down

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Speaker 1: and I say, hey, life evolved, It's like only in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. You can't change your opinion. So let's go back.

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Speaker 1: Your two sisters. Where are they today? My little sister,

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Speaker 1: it was how much younger? Is two years younger than me.

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Speaker 1: She's done in London doing what she works for a

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Speaker 1: photographic agent, so they support photographers in the fashion industry primarily. Um,

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Speaker 1: my big sister is two years older than me. It's

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Speaker 1: exactly like my favorite. We've got common here around. I

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Speaker 1: feel your pain, brother. But my big sister she works

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Speaker 1: in She was an intensive care nurse practically our whole

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Speaker 1: career and now has has sort of semi moved into

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Speaker 1: health education. She teaches nurses. Now are they reader in relationships?

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Speaker 1: My oldest sister is in a relationship. My youngest sister

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Speaker 1: is married with two kids. Okay, but you've never been married, right,

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Speaker 1: I am married? You are married. I guess I was unaware.

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Speaker 1: How long have you been married? Eight years? Eight years?

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Speaker 1: And is this your only marriage? No, this is my

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Speaker 1: second marriage. Okay, we'll save this for later. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you're rebelling. Do you finish school? Not exactly. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of a black and white you know, yes or no question. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't get past high school. I started flunked out

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Speaker 1: in my last I should have stayed on for another

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Speaker 1: year and I didn't have flunked out and I got

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Speaker 1: really bad examination results, and my parents were really disappointed

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Speaker 1: in me, and there was a lot of silence over

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Speaker 1: the dinner table at home. Okay, well, here the crisis

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Speaker 1: would be, if you drop out of high school, you

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Speaker 1: have to go to work. That is correct. My dad

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Speaker 1: said that to me, said, okay, you're you know you've

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Speaker 1: crapped out of high school. You need to go get

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Speaker 1: yourself a job. And did you? I did? And what

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Speaker 1: was that job? I worked in a female fashion shop,

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Speaker 1: a little like Forever twenty one. It was called miss Selfridge.

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Speaker 1: And how long did that last? Five? Years, five years

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Speaker 1: and any upwards, any any upward mobility, or you're just

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Speaker 1: the sales clerk in the shop for five years. I

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Speaker 1: don't say this for comic relief. I was actually demoted.

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Speaker 1: I started off. I started off as a sales clerk

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Speaker 1: what we call the shop assistant, and then I was

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Speaker 1: demoted to the stock room because I was unpleasant, quote unquote,

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Speaker 1: I was unpleasant to the customers. I love that. I

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Speaker 1: love that. So you're unpleasant. But they didn't fire you.

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Speaker 1: They didn't fire me. Okay. And at the time, okay,

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Speaker 1: you're smoking dope, drinking what are you doing. I was

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of speed. That was my drug of choice,

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Speaker 1: and I like the feeling of being fast. Okay and

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Speaker 1: okay going. Was there music in your house growing up? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of music in my house. My

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Speaker 1: mom was a sort of semi amateur singer, um semi

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Speaker 1: professional should I say. She sang with us a swing

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Speaker 1: band called the Squadron Ears before I was born, and

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Speaker 1: then she used to sing for like weddings and concert

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Speaker 1: parties at the church. And hey, you're playing footsie with me, Bob,

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Speaker 1: you have very long I can't believe. I like to

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Speaker 1: reach that far the first time this has ever happened

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Speaker 1: here on the podcast. But I noticed I touched before.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even notice that time. But when she was professional,

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Speaker 1: before you were born, how serious was that? Not particularly serious?

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Speaker 1: I mean, my mom got bless her. She didn't have

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Speaker 1: a lot of confidence in herself, so nothing she did

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Speaker 1: she considered very serious. But she was a good singer,

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Speaker 1: and she loved music, and she introduced me to music,

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Speaker 1: and my love of music comes from her. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: would she play records in the house? Yes, what kind

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Speaker 1: of records? She introduced me to a lot of like Elephants, Gerald,

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Speaker 1: Nina Simon, sat von Um. She loved Barbara Streisan, she

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Speaker 1: of Barry Manilo, and she loved show tunes. The show

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Speaker 1: too was a similar thing growing up. My mother played

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Speaker 1: them all the time. But and she is deceased. My

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Speaker 1: my mom too, right now, My mother's alive. My father's dead,

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Speaker 1: been dead for twenty five years. My mother's ninety one.

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Speaker 1: But your mother, based on what you said earlier, your

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Speaker 1: mother is no longer with no longer with How long

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Speaker 1: ago did she pass? About nine years ago? Okay, your

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Speaker 1: father ever got involved in another relationship, Yes he has,

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Speaker 1: He has not. Is he a serial data or is

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Speaker 1: that one specific woman. There's been a couple of women

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Speaker 1: he's been interested in and has pursued with great passion

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Speaker 1: and vigor and has gotten his own way a couple

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Speaker 1: of times. And so what do you what does that

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Speaker 1: feel like being his daughter? Well, it was funny. I

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Speaker 1: was cool with it because I knew my dad loved

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Speaker 1: my mom and I knew that, you know, there was

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Speaker 1: nothing going to bring my mom back, So I wanted

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Speaker 1: my dad to have happiness. So it didn't bother me.

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Speaker 1: It creaked me out a wee bit, you know. I

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Speaker 1: thinking about my dad having an erection was just too

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Speaker 1: much to care. But I was cool with him having

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Speaker 1: fun in his life. I wanted that for him. But

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Speaker 1: my younger sister had She wrestled with it the hardest.

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Speaker 1: She she she found it difficult to accept. Well, how

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Speaker 1: long after the passing of your mother did he get

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Speaker 1: started very quickly? And was your mother's sick or was

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Speaker 1: it a sudden death? Yeah, my mom was sick. She

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Speaker 1: had a very rare form of dementia, which is called

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Speaker 1: Picks disease um and it was very aggressive and sort

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Speaker 1: of took her out the game. In about eighteen months.

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Speaker 1: My mother's you know, is on is on that excursion.

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Speaker 1: So I speak speak with her, and she'll go on

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Speaker 1: and on. But whatever I tell her today, the next day,

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Speaker 1: it'd be like we didn't even discuss. I See, my

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Speaker 1: mom's disease wasn't like that. It was a different kind

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Speaker 1: of it was. She sort of became just physically difficult

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Speaker 1: to operate in the world. She always knew who I was.

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Speaker 1: She never didn't know who we were. No. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: it was very aggressive, an unusual form of Picks disease,

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Speaker 1: and that the doctor in our hometown nobody had ever

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Speaker 1: had an incident of this particular type of disease. So

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Speaker 1: she was young. She was sixty nine, which she was

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Speaker 1: diag very young. And so how long did she go undiagnosed. Well,

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Speaker 1: here's the other su in our families. I knew there

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Speaker 1: was something wrong with my mom. My family told me

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Speaker 1: I was crazy, But I have the same thing with

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Speaker 1: my father. Got canceled. We were having to be in

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Speaker 1: Mammoth Lakes, which is a ski area about four hours

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Speaker 1: from Los Angeles, and I went out with my father

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Speaker 1: to pick up a pizza, and my father for the

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Speaker 1: whole half hour waiting for the pizza, just had his

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Speaker 1: head in his hand and he was going. And I

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Speaker 1: came back and I told my mother, oh, you know

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Speaker 1: something wrong with our flashes. Oh, he just had a physical.

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Speaker 1: He's fine, he's fine. And a week later they found

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Speaker 1: out the cancer. I'm so sorry. Well, it was a

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Speaker 1: long time ago. At this point, it doesn't it's always

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Speaker 1: painful to lose your love. Well, my father died at

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Speaker 1: seventy and when he died, I was not quite forty,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, oh, that's a pretty good run. But

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Speaker 1: now I say, wow, that's really young. So there's music

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Speaker 1: in the household. At what point do you start to

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Speaker 1: sing or play yourself. I was playing really young because

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Speaker 1: my mom and dad got me into piano lessons on

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Speaker 1: singing in an a choir, So that was around about

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Speaker 1: seven years old. Did you practice, did I? No? No, no.

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Speaker 1: I don't think the piano lessons too. But the practicing

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Speaker 1: was the weakly. I found it very hard to practice anything,

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Speaker 1: and that has continued throughout my entire life. I'm very

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Speaker 1: lax about rehearsing and practicing and and actually being a

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Speaker 1: good student in that regard. But yeah, I was singing

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Speaker 1: and playing by about seven, and that just continued through

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Speaker 1: my life. My school picked me out to like learn

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Speaker 1: the violin, the clarinet, playing the school orchestra. Can you

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Speaker 1: read music even at this late day, you haven't forgotten it? Now,

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Speaker 1: you don't forget that people claim to forgotten that Billy

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Speaker 1: Joel whatever. But as someone who could read music basically,

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Speaker 1: then you occasionally sit down at the piano and then

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Speaker 1: I look at the bass cliff and I go, there's

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Speaker 1: no way. See, it's funny you should say that because

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Speaker 1: it's always the bass cleff cliff. That is the hardest

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Speaker 1: want to remember, but if you just play for a

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Speaker 1: wee bit, it comes back. So you're playing it at

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Speaker 1: this point. Do you ever have an light bulb go

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Speaker 1: off and say this is what I'd like to do

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Speaker 1: from my life? No? Ever, So what changes you know? This?

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Speaker 1: This is a bit of a long on Boing story.

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Speaker 1: I've told it a million times, but nothing ever changed,

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Speaker 1: Nothing ever changed. No, I stumbled from pillar to post

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Speaker 1: literally as my entire That is certainly a Scottish expression.

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Speaker 1: No one in America is going to say pillar to post. Well,

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Speaker 1: but you get the express, the idea. I know what

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Speaker 1: you said. The expression. But nothing in my life has

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Speaker 1: ever been planned. I have my My entire career has

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Speaker 1: been made up of stumbling from one place to the

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Speaker 1: next and no plan, no real solid ambition. Although my

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Speaker 1: dad claims that that's not true, but I don't remember

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Speaker 1: having any major ambition to do much except be a ballerina.

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Speaker 1: That's what I really burned to do. Then I couldn't

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Speaker 1: do that because I got too tall and I hurt

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Speaker 1: my ankle. So then I wanted to be an actress.

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Speaker 1: This is it? What age? What age do you hurt

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Speaker 1: your ankle? I was It's a good question. Then you

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Speaker 1: want to be an actor? Do you act on that?

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Speaker 1: Do you actually act in school plays? I had a

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Speaker 1: drama teacher that took great interest in me and got

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Speaker 1: me out into Edinburgh Youth Theater. Outside of the school

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Speaker 1: as well, she encouraged me to like audition for drama

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Speaker 1: school and so and so forth. I didn't get into

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Speaker 1: drama school. And that's suwhere that I didn't get into

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Speaker 1: drama school. I got approached by this guy that I

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Speaker 1: had met at Edinburgh Theater who needed a keyboard player

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Speaker 1: in his band. And because you know, I've been living

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Speaker 1: in l along doesn't just happen. So how was he

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Speaker 1: aware that you played the keyboard? Well, I think he

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Speaker 1: maybe asked me. He was very interested in me sexually. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's straightforward. He was more interested in me, I think,

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Speaker 1: sexually than he was my my musical skills. But he

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Speaker 1: knew I played pianos so and he knew he could

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Speaker 1: lure me into his band to play keyboards. But you

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Speaker 1: had to say yes. I didn't have to see yes.

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Speaker 1: Say yes. I did see it. So what was your

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Speaker 1: inspiration for saying yes? Because I've just been rejected from

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Speaker 1: drama college, so I had nothing else to do, and

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Speaker 1: so for want of some entertainment in my life, I

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Speaker 1: joined the band. And this was at what age fifteen

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Speaker 1: or sixteen? Okay, So you go and you have this band.

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Speaker 1: What kind of music you play? Well, you would call

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Speaker 1: it alternative pop rock. Okay, we're the originals were playing

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Speaker 1: was on the hip Parade? They were originals. I can't

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Speaker 1: ask me if they were on the hip three. That

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Speaker 1: is the cutest thing I've ever been asked. I think.

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Speaker 1: So they were originals. And in the United States, which

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Speaker 1: is my frame of reference, it's very hard to get

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Speaker 1: work being an upstart band playing originals. So did you

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Speaker 1: get gigs with this band? We did get gigs. You know.

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Speaker 1: We were lucky that we marriage from Scotland, which had

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Speaker 1: a small music scene, and so we'd be pretty fast.

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Speaker 1: Became quite large fish in a very small poet. Well

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Speaker 1: that would you know, seem to say that you were good?

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Speaker 1: We were good? So why were you good? We were

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Speaker 1: really unique, really original, like we were like no other

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Speaker 1: band I have ever seen in my life. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we were a right bunch of Motley three. Um, we

404
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:08,159
Speaker 1: were quite rebellious and we we're just very committed to

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Speaker 1: putting on good shoes. So I have to ask, did

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Speaker 1: you have a romantic partnership with that guy who asked you? Yes?

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00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: I did. Okay, how long did that last? I don't know,

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Speaker 1: about six months, I think. Okay, when that ended? Did

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Speaker 1: the band break up? Okay? The band survived. The band survived,

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Speaker 1: So how long did the band go on for? And

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Speaker 1: the name of that band was Goodbye Mr Mackenzie. Okay.

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Speaker 1: We'll return to this conversation with Chirley Manson of Garbage

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Speaker 1: in a moment. You're listening to the Bob Left Sets

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Speaker 1: podcast recorded at the tune in Studios in Venice, California.

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Speaker 1: Each week I interview a new guest and dive into

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Speaker 1: their lives and careers. If you enjoy listening to the podcast, subscribe,

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00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: rate and review the show. Please also check out some

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Speaker 1: of the earlier episodes, like my conversation with Nancy Wilson

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Speaker 1: of the band Hard and famous gate boarder Tony Hawk.

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Speaker 1: You can hear them all on tune in the Apple

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Speaker 1: podcast or your podcast player of choice. And now more

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Speaker 1: with Shirley Manson. So when you're in Goodbye, Mr mackenzie,

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Speaker 1: are you for five years you still working in the shop?

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Speaker 1: You are correct? Okay? At what point when you stopped

425
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 1: working in the shop? Are you living off the money

426
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 1: from the band? Or are you have to get another

427
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: day job? I'm living off my day job, okay, but

428
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 1: after the after working in the shop, excuse me, then

429
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: I barely existed off money from the band, barely okay.

430
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: Still living at your parents? Are still living at my parents?

431
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 1: You know, in America things have changed. But in my era,

432
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: once you got out of high school, parents said you

433
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: gotta get out of the house, and of course you

434
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 1: could afford to live somewhere on minimum wage. Now it's

435
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: just the opposite. Can't afford to living where I'm miimum

436
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: wage and people want their kids, and people do move back.

437
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 1: So what did your parents think, You're getting older and older,

438
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: you still living in their house. My mom wanted me

439
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 1: so there was It was never even discussed, really so

440
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: she did made all your meals, clean your clothes. Not

441
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 1: at that point. I mean I was an adult by

442
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 1: that point, but no, she she wanted her children amongst

443
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,439
Speaker 1: her for as long as she could possibly have them,

444
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: and my dad didn't dare question that. Okay, so you're

445
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 1: in the band for ten years. That's a long period

446
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: of time and it takes a long time to make it.

447
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: But at that time, do you have a fantasy of

448
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: this being a gig in stardom or you just doing it.

449
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: I'm doing it because I really loved it. I mean,

450
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 1: in retrospect, I really did love it, and I wasn't

451
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 1: looking to be rich. I knew it sort of deep down.

452
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: I was like, we're never going to be rich, We're

453
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: never going to be hugely successful. But I really love

454
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 1: doing what I get to do. And we traveled a lot,

455
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: so it was the first time I got to go

456
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: to mainland Europe, go to France, go to Germany, go

457
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: to Holland. I mean, I went all over the place

458
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 1: with this band, So that was exciting to me. And

459
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 1: it was enough that of course begs the question, which

460
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: you maybe get into later. You're you're touring at a

461
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: relatively low level, and what's it like being a woman

462
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: on the road. You know. I didn't really think about

463
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: it too much because in my very first band it

464
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: was very iglitarian and the Scots in general are pretty like,

465
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: even in a funny way, in a different way, that

466
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: men and women are much more sort of equal in

467
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: Scottish society in some ways, and I'm not entirely sure why,

468
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 1: and this is the first time that's ever come out

469
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: of my mouth. I'm just sort of speaking of but

470
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 1: it never was an issue. Sexism was never, in my

471
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: mind an issue. However, looking back on it too, I

472
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: wasn't one of the writers in the band. It was

473
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 1: two male members who kept all the writing to themselves

474
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: and never invited anybody else into the writing dynamics. So

475
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: they were the power seat. And I just didn't care

476
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,959
Speaker 1: about money back then, and I didn't care about power

477
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: back then, or I didn't even speak in those terms.

478
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: I just was having fun and that was enough really,

479
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: so there were no ultimate goals down the road. None.

480
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: It's kind of funny that a loser, I'm telling you

481
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: fascinating thing because there's a book called You Just Don't Understand,

482
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: and it sounds like a self help book written by

483
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: this PhD. Deborah Tannin, who studies language, and she says,

484
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: men are all about the pecking order, okay, and I'm

485
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: trying to rise to the top where women are about

486
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: the community. Like if a guy loses his job, he

487
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: loses his identity where she would say a woman. And

488
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: of course there exceptions to all this. Well, this is

489
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: where I am now, this is where I'll be tomorrow,

490
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: and I'm just enjoying what I'm doing now. Yeah, I

491
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: mean again, like you say, there's there's they're sweeping generalizations

492
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: right in this exceptions to all the rules. But in

493
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: this case, yeah, I think I had been taught from

494
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,719
Speaker 1: a very early age basically just to be in the

495
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: clan system, and whatever your seat was in that system

496
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: was your seat. I just accepted my seat. Now that's

497
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 1: changed as I've gotten older, I start to fight from

498
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: my own seat and the seat that I won't but

499
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: back then I was very sort of submissive. I guess.

500
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: So the band goes on for ten years, what to

501
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: what degree is it successful by worldwide standers? Well, we

502
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: got signed by a large label. We got signed by

503
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: My Records and Capitol Records, and we started bounced between

504
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: those two labels, and we got a big advance, but

505
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: that all went to the writing partners. I didn't see

506
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: any of that. But we did get a big advance,

507
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: and there was a great buzz on the band, and

508
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: we charted very briefly, um, which was enough to sustain

509
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: us to keep trying and trying and trying for years.

510
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: How many records did you make in that under that moniker? Well,

511
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: I think I did four, but after you left they

512
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: did more. They did another two. I think. Okay, so

513
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 1: you did those four and then you made a solo

514
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: record under not your own name, correct, Although the soul

515
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: so called solo record was really just a recalibration of

516
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: Goodbye Mr. Mackenzie, which was my first band. I e

517
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: the lead singer of Goodby Ms Mackenzie stepped back and

518
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: I took over lead vocals because we had gone to

519
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: Berlin to make a record. Are Lynn. That's funny. I

520
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about, but my brain had a percolate. Person, sorry,

521
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: excuse me. Why Berlin? What is this? I don't know

522
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: what year this was? What is it with the UK?

523
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you know acton Baby? You two went to

524
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: uh Berlin, to Berlin? Why Berlin? Well, David Boye went

525
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: to Berlin, and therefore everybody else wanted to go there.

526
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, Acting Baby was being recorded in hans

527
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: of studios at the same time that we were there,

528
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: and so we were all there when the wall came down,

529
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: and it was you were literally there when the wall

530
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: we were literally was that like crazy? Literally? Somebody just

531
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: called us something, went where are you right now? We're like,

532
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: we're in the studio. It's like you need to get

533
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: to the wall. They're pulling it down right now. It

534
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: was that quick. I have a piece of the wall

535
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: in my home in Scotland. And so was there any

536
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: once you went out to the wall? Was there any fear? No?

537
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: Was it just excitement? Everybody was really excited and it

538
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: was crazy. Well, when I went to Berlin, as you say,

539
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: and you're there in the wall that still remains on

540
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: one side as a bunker on the west side is

541
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: where you know, underground where Hitler was. On the other side,

542
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: you see where they're the buildings where they wouldn't let

543
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: people live because they were afraid. At first, they were

544
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: using ropes to go over the wall. I mean, you

545
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: get this really heavy feeling. It's really scary. I mean

546
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: when I first went to Berlin, you know, Checkpoint Charlie

547
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: was still operating and we still had to cross through

548
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: it to get to East Berlin, you know, and East

549
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: Berlin had nothing. You know, you go to eat Berlin

550
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: now and it's like any affluent part of Europe, but

551
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: back then it was. It was grim and there wasn't

552
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 1: much there and people were really struggling. So when you

553
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: in Berlin record you would go to East Berlin and

554
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: with just to see what's going on. And we went

555
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: there to see what's going on there, and because it

556
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: was an incredibly hip kind of scene there, you know,

557
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: because it was forbidden and anything bidden people won't right,

558
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: So you make the record in Berlin because the lead

559
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: singer was whacked or burned out or kicked out, not

560
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: none the above. Good by Ms. Mackenzie went to Hansa

561
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: to to record a record and we just got lost.

562
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: Been a frenzy of partying, and we spent our entire

563
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: recording advance on having fun. And then when we came

564
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: back we had nothing to show for it. We hadn't

565
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: we had no finished music or anything. I can't remember

566
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: a good idea. So you blow all the money. Record

567
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: company stone like that. They hated that, so they dropped

568
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: the band, but they held up like the head of

569
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: the record label said, I love you. I think you're amazing,

570
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: and you could do something on your own call me

571
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: when you get your ship together. Okay, but you were

572
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: not the lead vocalist. A good bye, Mr mackenzie. So

573
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: why did this person? It was just your overall charisma

574
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: that he felt. I don't know, I've never stopped to

575
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: think about it other than he liked me. You know,

576
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: he was a really amazing person at say, his name

577
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: is Gary car First, and he was well, I know

578
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: Gary unfortunately is not with us, unfortunately, but he was.

579
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: Uh he had his own label, radio Active for m

580
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: c A. And he was a big manager of the

581
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: Talking Heads and exactly, but he was in New York.

582
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: How did he find you in London? Oh? God? We

583
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: had opened Obama's McKenzie had opened for for Debbie Harry's

584
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,719
Speaker 1: solo tour in the UK during the eighties, and he

585
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: had met me there and just liked me. He's like,

586
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: you're funny, You've got charisma, your star. He kept on,

587
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: so he was always like, you're a star, so and

588
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: and he just as a result, he then fell in

589
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: love with Obamais ckenzie signed Obamas mackenzie and then when

590
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: he dropped Obamas Ckenzie, he was like, I want you

591
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: let me know what you're gonna do. Okay, So how

592
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: long did you go home before you say I'm ready

593
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: to call Gary again? I can't remember. I do know

594
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: that eventually everyone in the band, having been dropped, realized

595
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: this was our only only solution, which was and and

596
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: there's no thought in your brain, Hey, this wasn't work.

597
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave the band behind. No, because I wasn't

598
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: fit for anything. I didn't I didn't have any calls.

599
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: But I mean, you didn't say, okay, this Gary thinks

600
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: I'm a star. I'm gonna make a deal and leave

601
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: the rest of the band members behind. No, that's not

602
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: my style. I'm quite loyal, okay, And I didn't want

603
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: to leave my band in the shitter. Okay, but all

604
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: of a sudden, do you become the singer? I don't know.

605
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's so smudgy now and trying to

606
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: remember our hazy memories. But I think just the whole

607
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: band were like, let's put Shirley and lead vocals and

608
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: we'll recalibrate and we'll survive as a different entity. And

609
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: we all thought in practice we could do that. As

610
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: it turns out, the male members of the band couldn't

611
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: really hack the fact that I became the sort of

612
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: focal point of the band, and and all the business

613
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: started like Gary would drawn all business through me, having

614
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: been burned by good Bram's, Mackenzie and Berlin. He was like,

615
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: you're now in charge, You're responsible. I will only communicate

616
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: with you. So that's kind of how it how it happened.

617
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: And I made a record with Chris Franz and Tina

618
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: Weymouth of the Talking Heads because they were Gary's clients.

619
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: And okay, a little bit slower you made her. I

620
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: thought you made a record with the remnants of Goodbye.

621
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: I did, but Chris and Tina were producing Chris now

622
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: lives in my hometown. I hear from an irregular basis,

623
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: And yes, so fear Field, Connecticut. So how how do

624
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: you are you? Were you happy with what transpired when

625
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: those sessions? I was freaked out. But it was such

626
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: an honor for me to work with Christentina. I mean,

627
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: I can't even put that into words. It was so

628
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: extraordinary for me, and I was I was proud of

629
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: what we've accomplished, you know. And uh, at that point

630
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: you were the singer, were you also the writer? Nope?

631
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: And so the two guys from Goodbye also continue to

632
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: write the songs. They continued to write the songs. Like

633
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: I said, it was just a recalibration of good by

634
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: Mr Mackenzie. Just in order to survive, we had me

635
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: do the the take over the vocals, but the writing

636
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: partnership remained the same. And the record comes out and

637
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: then one and then we go on tour with Vic

638
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: Chestna and Life Chestnut. That's quite a bill. That's amazing

639
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: bill actually, and I fell in love with Vic and

640
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: he fell in love with me, and we had a

641
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: love fest. But well, Vic chest And it was in

642
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: a wheel chair, he was he was apparently. Yeah, so

643
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: I have to ask that you said we had a

644
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: love fest. Was this a physical love fest? No, just admiration? Yeah, yeah,

645
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: we just got we hit it off, you know, admitted

646
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: suicide very strange. Yeah, okay, So you go on tour

647
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: that that bill. We go on tour, and um, the

648
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: band is sort of falling apart already because the boys

649
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: are just are not happy with the Paris structure at

650
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: this point, which I totally understand. Why should you understand, Well,

651
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I did, And but I was

652
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: having fun. You know, I was going on to in

653
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: America the first time. I've never been to American shore.

654
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: So to like travel all over America in a van

655
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: was one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life.

656
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's across the desert in a van. Well,

657
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: the funny things. I grew up in the seventies, that

658
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: was the dream to drive across country, and now everybody flies.

659
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: People don't even do that, which is sad because it

660
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: really is an extraordinary way to So we did that,

661
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: and then Rule in Stone picked up on us and

662
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: sort of lauded us as like what one to watch

663
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: And that was the final straw for my band. They

664
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: were like, we're going home. We can't hack this anymore,

665
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: And I kid you not. That very day I had

666
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: gotten a phone call from my future band saying, would

667
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: you be interested in meeting up with Butch vig Um

668
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: about singing on a possibly singing on one of like

669
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: a project that he's working on. Literally the same day

670
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: the bands as were calling it quits. Yes, okay, are

671
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 1: you still friends with the band members of Goodbye Mr Mackenzie? Now?

672
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: I am, yeah, but we have it was it was

673
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: very difficult. It became very complex, and it was difficult

674
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: for Martin and the lead singer in particular, to like,

675
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: I think process what had happened not only to him

676
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: but to me too. But yeah, and now we're friends,

677
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: and what do they do? There is still in a

678
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: band that are called the Filthy Tongues. They're actually really

679
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: great and they can make a living being the Filthy Tongues.

680
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if they make a living, but there

681
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: are song writers. They also worked with Um the Skids.

682
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: They just helped co write that last Skids record, the

683
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: fourth anniversary of The Skids, Um Richard Jobson's band. And

684
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: you know they do okay, and they're they're they're there.

685
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: I'm proud of them but they were resentful for a

686
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: long Yeah, just like ten or twenty years worth. Okay,

687
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: So you get this call from Butch Vig and you think, what, Well,

688
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: now you already know you're being as a band into you,

689
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: so you're up for anything. Your loyalty has been canned. Yeah.

690
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: I didn't have to question my own loyalty, thank god,

691
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: because that would have been very difficult because I've already

692
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 1: met Butoch and the Garbage in London for a quick

693
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: meeting where they had wanted, you know, so convoluted a story.

694
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: But I had met them in London a few months

695
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: to going on tour in America, and we had liked

696
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: each other and that and then the day that my

697
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: band quit was the day Duke Errickson called me. I

698
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: was in Astbury Park in a hotel room, crying and

699
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: I get the phone call from Duke Karrickson saying, Hey,

700
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: are you interested in coming up for an addition? I

701
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: was like, as a matter of fact, yes I am. Okay,

702
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: But when you meet them in London, is it just

703
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: social or are they checking you out? There? Checking me out?

704
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: And did you know that at that time? Okay? But

705
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: I the way they had approached me was would you

706
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: send one song on Booch BIG's project. I was like, yeah,

707
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: of course I didn't feel that question my loyalty or

708
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: anything like that. Okay, so you go for the audition

709
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: and you don't have anything else going on, nothing, so

710
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: you must have been pretty anxious. I was very anxious.

711
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: I was so anxious that I completely messed up the addition.

712
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: It was a disaster. But then we all went out

713
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: to drink afterwards, and of course we got on like

714
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: a house on fire and we had such a laugh

715
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: that I went home to Scotland having had a disastrous edition,

716
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: and something about I guess the way we had all

717
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: gotten along sort of pushed us to have a second edition.

718
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: And okay, so did they agreed the your audition sucked

719
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: to they did? What was bad about it? Have you

720
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: ever seen shreds? Do you know what I mean by shreds? Okay? Well,

721
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: shreds is a thing that you can go on YouTube

722
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: and like, let's say it's Radiohead singing one of their

723
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: fame of songs. Somebody like you. You watch a video

724
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: radio Head singing one of the most famous songs, but

725
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: then they've re recorded a different audio over the top

726
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: of it. And it's like that, Well that's what my

727
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: audition was like. It was like shreds. So you couldn't

728
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: I wasn't even articulating any words because I was so

729
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: nervous and so embarrassed that it was just awful. How

730
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: long was it between the first and second auditions, I

731
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe three months, a long time. And during

732
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: that period you got nothing. I got nothing. Okay, so

733
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: you go back in the second audition it is okay,

734
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: Now these are guys you know, butch Vig had a

735
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: huge studio career. But did you believe this was an opportunity?

736
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: But did any It ended up becoming an instant success,

737
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: But did you have any idea that's what would happen? No, none, whatsoever.

738
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: In fact, I was convinced it was going to burn

739
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: badly because I was like, nobody wants to hear from

740
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: a producer, nobody ever has, So why will this work?

741
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: Especially with me and that's the lead singer. It's going

742
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: to be a disaster. I was so wrong. Stare right there.

743
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more. Shirley Manson of the band

744
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: Garbage right here on the Bob Left Sense podcast. Hi,

745
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: this is Bob Left Sense my guest come to the

746
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: tune In studios in Venice, California to have these conversations

747
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: with me. And if you ever want to see what

748
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: they look like or where we take the show, check

749
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: out the photos and videos search at tune In on Twitter,

750
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: Facebook and Instagram. Let's dive right back in with my guest,

751
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: Shirley Manson of the band Garbage. So you have the

752
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: audition three months later, how long after that do you

753
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: go in the studio? No idea, no idea, No, I'm useless,

754
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: I'm a terrible witness. Okay, how about the record comes

755
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: out on Almo in America. Why is that? Well, we'd

756
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: signed to the young management, that to Kato Boots at

757
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: the time. We're very smart and they were young, go

758
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: getting women who had an idea. So the Butcher's manager

759
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: were women, young women, that's certainly you know. And were

760
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: they also managers of Garbage? Yes, okay, that's my default. Okay,

761
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 1: but that's that's certainly out of the ordinary, especially notable

762
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: on today's ME two world. Correct. And then they struck

763
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: two deals, one in the UK for the rest of

764
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: the world and one for North America. And they were

765
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: both independent record labels. And that was what we were

766
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 1: very keen on pursuing because what was the record label

767
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: in the UK? Mushroom Records were Australian based. And so

768
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: you're making the the record which takes how long? Oh god,

769
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: about eighteen months with a break for Boot to make

770
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: a Soul Asylum record of all things? Is it? It's

771
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: that slow? Because well, I think there was a lot

772
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: of feet involved. Booch had a lot to lose, and

773
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: so he was very, very meticulous, and I would say

774
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: all of all of us were fearful of taking the

775
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: wrong step. We knew this was a great opportunity, I think,

776
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: and so just took a ridiculously long time. And when

777
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: the record is and you're living where when that time,

778
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: I'm living in a weird hotel, Okay, and the record

779
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: is done. Now do you think we have something? This

780
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: is gonna work? Not really, But it's a hit. From

781
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: Los Angeles perspective, it is literally immediately a hit. And

782
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: the only other thing I could think like this from

783
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: a couple of years later was Lanti's more a set,

784
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 1: also immediately a hit. And was that your sensation? Yes?

785
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: And no, I mean we were aware that it was

786
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: taking off in a major way really fast. But there

787
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: were always artists that were doing so much better than

788
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 1: us on our record labels because they were small, really

789
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: relied on us to make money for them. We became

790
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: this sort of like little machine that they sent out

791
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: into the world to fund all their other artists who

792
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: weren't selling. And so they were constantly telling us, you know,

793
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: no doubt or selling more records than you, Atlantis more

794
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 1: set is selling more than you. You know, We's are

795
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: selling more than you. You're losing. It was constantly telling

796
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: us how much we were losing. So as frustrating and

797
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: awful as that process was, I'm actually quite grateful for

798
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: it because it made us really like be humble. We

799
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: were forced to be humble. Okay, but it's the MTV era.

800
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: You're all over television, you have a unique look. You

801
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: probably can't go anywhere without being recognized almost immediately. There

802
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 1: was a lot of pressure. Okay, but that also made

803
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: must you know, after years of relative obscurity, must have

804
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: made you feel very good on the inside. No, it

805
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: made me feel rotten on the inside. Why. I don't

806
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: know why. I mean, I I didn't have a lot

807
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: of self esteem to begin with, and and having attention

808
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: made me feel really self conscious, and I felt the

809
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: whole time I was being judged and that I was

810
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: failing to be a Gwen Stefani or be an Atlantis.

811
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 1: More set, I was just me, surely, Anne, you know,

812
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: I was just my own, small, little Scottish self. That's

813
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: how I viewed it at the time. I mean that changed, obviously,

814
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: you know, my confidence grew and I got better at

815
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: what I did as an artist. But right at the beginning,

816
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: I just felt rotten. And so ultimately you tour and

817
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: there's and garbage continues. So what can you say about

818
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: that experience of the late nineties and early twenty one century.

819
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: I could sit here for hours and hours and hours

820
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: and talk about it. I mean, it was extraordinary. It

821
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: was an extraordinary time where alternative music ruled the roost

822
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: and that has never happened before. It's certainly never happened since.

823
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 1: So I was. I am an alternative music lover. I'm

824
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 1: not particularly turned on by pop or conformity of any sort.

825
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: Like I love music that's sort of a little off kilter,

826
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, And that's just been my personal taste since

827
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: I was young. And so it was a moment where

828
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 1: we were enjoying this insane success, global success as where

829
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: a lot of bands that I loved and joid and

830
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: we were a community in some ways. You know, we

831
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: all played these massive summer festivals and we all got

832
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: to know one another. We played winter you know, on

833
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: radio festivals all together, and so there was a lot

834
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: of camaraderie, and so it was a very exciting time

835
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: for nonconforming alternative artists. And what were the other artists?

836
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: You became friends with everybody, you know, whether it was Beck,

837
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: whether it was you know, food Fighters, whether it was

838
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: No Doubt, whether it was Fiona Apple. I mean that

839
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 1: the list was, you know, and we we all everyone

840
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: was friendly to one another, as Missy Elliott, I mean,

841
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: it was it was really wonderful. So why do you

842
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: think that scene was eclipsed by hip hop and pop?

843
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I mean, I know why it

844
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: became eclipsed by pop because I think that I think

845
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 1: the times became very conservative. I think hip hop really

846
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: exploded because it was a new it was still new.

847
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been around for twenty years, but it

848
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: really was one of the the most courageous and creative

849
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: in terms of modern production. You know, they really they

850
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: sort of messed around with sounds and beats that we

851
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: hadn't heard before, and it was the sound of the street,

852
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: was the sound of rebellion. So hip hop, I think

853
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: became the most authentic version of rebellion and questioning of

854
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: authority and and and our society. Anyway, But is there

855
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: any hope for so called alternative music? There's always hope,

856
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: of course. Okay, Well they're always hope. It's blind, you know,

857
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: blind optimism. Now I don't think that is blind optimism,

858
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: and I think it's actually sensible and pragmatic because I

859
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: think history continues to repeat itself. Well, the irony is

860
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: in the century really hasn't If you go back prior

861
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: to the napstre era, meaning last century, every two or

862
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: three years there was a whole new sound. Okay, we

863
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: had the hair bands which were clipped by seattle, which

864
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 1: were eclipped by eclips by hip pop. It was then

865
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: then it pop came after that. Now for the twenty

866
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: one century, we've had pop up pop and hip hop.

867
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: Hip hop happens to be dominant now, but it's been

868
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 1: almost twenty years. No, it's true, But I mean, one

869
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: could say though that hip hop has been the dominant

870
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: sound of the last twenty years, and it's really progressive

871
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 1: and really exciting, and really I do. I mean it's not. Again,

872
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: it's not my preferred choice. But there's always artists that

873
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: come along that catch my ear and excite me. Whether

874
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 1: it's Drake, whether it's Logic or whether you know, there's

875
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: always someone um that I'm excited by. Okay, But you're

876
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: making a point about, you know, why alternative music has

877
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: been eclipsed by hip hop and what the future of

878
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: alternative music might be. I don't know. I mean, if

879
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: I had the answer to that, I would be you know,

880
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: I would be investing in it. Well, you are investing here,

881
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: you're still making it. I'm invested in it. Yeah, that's true.

882
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: I mean it's very different it used to be. And

883
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: under the old paradigm, you made the record, okay, then

884
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: your label went to video sources, MTV, whatever, went to radio.

885
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: They may or may not play it. They may or

886
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: may not be a reaction. But you were either on

887
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: the train or you're off the train. You said, hey,

888
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: this worked or it doesn't work. Today, a band of

889
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: the Statue of Garbage could put out a record, and

890
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: it can have almost zero cultural impact other than amongst

891
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: its fans. What is that like being the maker of

892
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: that music? You know, it's interesting because obviously as an

893
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: artist who you know, I've had to wrestle with that.

894
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: That's not an easy pill to swallow. It's difficult and upsetting.

895
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 1: I'd be a liar if I said otherwise. But I've

896
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: also managed to process, and I'm very grateful for this,

897
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: as has my bands. By the way, is get back

898
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: into what I call a beginner's headspace, a sort of

899
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: a place where you don't expect anything, And we've all

900
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: been able to somehow get back to that space where

901
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: we were before any of the success. So we now

902
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: make music solely because we love each other. We have

903
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: a good creative working relationship. We enjoy making music and

904
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: we enjoy touring it, and our ambitions are not much

905
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: bigger than that. And as a result, we've been able

906
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: to still find joy in the process of doing what

907
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: we do. And we've been very lucky in that we've

908
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: built upon that slowly and we have a very loyal

909
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: fan base. And yeah, we're still able to be in

910
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: the music scene. You know, Okay, but there's a lot

911
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: these especially now more than ever. It's a business, and

912
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: when you go on the road, you have to feed

913
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: everybody in the crew. Everybody in the band has to

914
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: be in the black at the end of the day.

915
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: There's an agent, there's a manager, so there's a pressure

916
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: to sell as many tickets as part possible. You must

917
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: feel that pressure, right, So then it becomes an issue.

918
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: You go out, you say, well, they want to hear

919
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: the hits. How much new music do you play. It's

920
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: one thing to be in the studio saying, hey, we're

921
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: gonna do whatever we want to do. What pressure do

922
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: you feel on stage and how do you deal with that?

923
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: I don't feel any pressure on stage at all. I

924
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: feel comfortable enough to to own our expression when we're

925
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: on stage, and if people don't like that, then so

926
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: be it. That's not for me to say, but I

927
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: feel in general at this point, anyone who's coming to

928
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 1: a garbage shoe is willing to go on that ride

929
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: with us. They're not going to sit there and go, well,

930
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: you didn't play stupid girl, you didn't play only happy

931
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: when it rains. Everybody seems to be content to come

932
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: with us in whatever. So if you have new music

933
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: and you go on the road. How much of the

934
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: new album will you play the last record that we released,

935
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: We played half of it, Okay, And you're on stage

936
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 1: and you're watching Do you visit of lea see people

937
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: get up and go to the bathroom? Of course, I

938
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: mean we were on We were on tour last year

939
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: and we it was summertime. You know, you're playing these

940
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: summer festivals. And I looked out and there was a

941
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 1: man on a sun lounges. You're fast asleep throughout our

942
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: entire set. So what you're on stage, what goes through

943
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,479
Speaker 1: your mind or through your heart? Well, when I was younger,

944
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 1: that would have devastated me. Now I find it funny,

945
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: and I realized, I'm like, I am here to do

946
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: a job and connect with someone. It doesn't have to

947
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: be everyone. You know, I'm not failing if I don't

948
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: touch every heart in this audience. But my job is

949
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: to get out there and tell my truth and hope

950
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: that somehow I connect with one or more people. And

951
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: that's all I think about. I don't worry about being famous,

952
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 1: I don't worry about being important. I don't worry about

953
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: being a start. I really do not give a ship,

954
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: I'd want to be a working musician because that's what

955
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: I value. I value working musicians more than anything in

956
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: the world. That's my jam. Two Things one two thousand

957
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: five definitely and Brian Adams went on a tour where

958
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: they played ballparks and they would alternate headlining, and I

959
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: happen to see them in a there were minor league

960
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 1: ballparks in Minnesota, and at that time, the opening act

961
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: on that date was Brian Adams. He had had a

962
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: set list and he's playing, but also he could bring

963
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 1: children in for free whatever, and he was having this

964
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: experience of the audience not being with him, and he literally,

965
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: I was standing on stage literally, you know, looked at

966
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: the band, literally took out the set list and ripped

967
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 1: it in half and slowly brought the audience into the

968
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 1: palm of this hand and worked them into a frenzy.

969
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 1: It was a magical thing, you know, something that only

970
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: someone was very experienced doing it. Do you ever feel

971
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: challenged in that way that, Okay, I'm gonna win him

972
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: over all the time I go out feeling like it's

973
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 1: like we are coming from a place of lack. We

974
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: are going to try and change in mind. I always

975
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: feel like that. Yeah, okay, so now how often does

976
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: garbage works? It's that's doesn't even apply to us because

977
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: we have such a bizarre set up. Well, the reason

978
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: I'm asking what do you do with the rest of

979
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,439
Speaker 1: your time? That's a good question. I have absolutely no idea.

980
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 1: I set a home feeling like of work tiger. Okay,

981
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: you're an out of work tiger. Are you the type

982
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: pacing the cage saying, hey, I want my band members

983
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: to record or go on the road or okay, but

984
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 1: how about independent things that are fulfilling, whether it be music,

985
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 1: aren't anything? Everything is fulfilling to me. At this point,

986
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: I feel it's up to me to find joy in

987
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: my life. It's not nobody else is going to come

988
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 1: and serve it to me. You know. But you're painting

989
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: a picture of you're very happy when you're working, okay,

990
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: and when you're not working, you're frustrated. You would like

991
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: to be working with the band. I am frustrated, but

992
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: I think life isn't that simple, you know. Human beings

993
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: are complex. So yeah, I can be frustrated and also

994
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: go out to an art gality and see something that

995
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: will blow my mind and make me feel excited, and

996
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: I have like all these ideas and it excites me

997
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: and I feel joyful, and and then I'll come home

998
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: and fall into a slump again. I mean, I'm cute,

999
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: like most human beings are. Okay, but okay, this is

1000
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: another thing I've noticed, because you know, when I'm right,

1001
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:07,919
Speaker 1: I'm writing in the house, and a lot of times

1002
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: I'll be in a bad mood and you literally walk

1003
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: out the front door in your mood changes. Yes, it's

1004
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: just astounding. You just have to frost the threshold. But

1005
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: assuming it's just you're not on the road. An average day,

1006
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: you wake up when seven is Oh, so you're living

1007
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: regular human being that me. I'm up late. I'm I'm

1008
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: more creative at night. I have a dog and the

1009
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: dog has to get out. I'm not a dog person.

1010
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 1: I'm in service to my dog and the dog. You

1011
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: have to get up at seven, seventh thirty, you know,

1012
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: And are you the type person who will go out

1013
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 1: to breakfast with friends or you are not going to

1014
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 1: breakfast with friends? Okay, but do you do it? Yes?

1015
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: Of course, So you're not You're You're a people person.

1016
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: You're not a loner. I am very much a people person.

1017
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 1: I love people and I'm fascinated by them, but I'm

1018
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 1: also a missanthrope. So again, here you've got this duality

1019
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: that exists in most human beings, like I am really

1020
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: fascinated and genuinely interested in anyone I meet, and I'm

1021
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: open to engaging with them. Okay, you can meet them once.

1022
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: Do you want to see them again? It depends how

1023
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 1: great they are, right exactly, or do you find I

1024
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: have no interest in seeing them. There are a lot

1025
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: of people I find. You know, everybody's got a fascinating story.

1026
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: You can hear it once, but there are other people.

1027
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 1: Every time you hang with them, they tell the same story.

1028
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, I have no I have.

1029
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 1: I bump him, and it's one thing. But I'm not

1030
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: gonna make plans with them. No, of course not. I

1031
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: mean that's how you select the people in your life. No,

1032
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: but it also makes me feel I mean, uh, I

1033
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: don't view myself as you know, the average person. I

1034
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 1: don't know what you can even say this. Maybe it's

1035
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: out a date. Average person is getting up in the

1036
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: morning and going to a job. They're seeing people all

1037
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,399
Speaker 1: the time at the job. It is wearing them out

1038
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: and they come home and they want to relax. They

1039
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: maybe have a drink, have a smoke, watch TV, and

1040
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: get up and do it again. And on the weekends

1041
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: they'll go out to dinner, We'll go out to a show.

1042
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 1: They'll cut loose. Okay, where this someone once made a

1043
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: great line? You know, the people who party hardest on

1044
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 1: these entrance are not the music business people because these

1045
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: other people it's one time of years. You got a Vegas.

1046
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: These people out of control. We're in the music you

1047
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 1: can you can party every night, So why shouldn't be

1048
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: out of control tonight? So my question is are you

1049
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: since you don't have when you're not on the road,

1050
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: you're not recording? Uh are you in the house sort

1051
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: of bouncing off the walls? So how are you occupying

1052
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: your time? That's a good question. I mean, I walk

1053
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 1: my dog alt I go to galleries, I read a lot,

1054
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: I love going to movies, I love dinner with friends.

1055
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean there's a million and one thing. So in

1056
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: the average, in the average week, how many times in

1057
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: a week would you go to breakfast with friends, go

1058
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 1: to dinner with friends? It's no idea. I'm trying, you know,

1059
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 1: trying to say it. You know, you sound very social,

1060
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: So therefore, when I hear that you about your frustration,

1061
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure it out, you know. And

1062
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: you say you're a missing thrope? Are you the type

1063
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: of person who really you know, you go when you

1064
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: have a good time. But are you mostly alone or

1065
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: you're mostly hanging? I don't even know how to answer

1066
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 1: this question. This is amazing. I have absolutely no idea.

1067
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: This is so peculiar to me that I'm not sure

1068
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 1: to be honest. I mean, I'm both shy and I'm

1069
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: both gregarious. I both love people and I hate them.

1070
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: If I had my brothers, I'd spend my whole life

1071
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: with my dog. Okay. So if you're home alone, I'm

1072
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: you're a happy pig and ship. Okay. And you're married

1073
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: at this point, they've been married for eight years. What

1074
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: did your husband do for a living? He's a music producer,

1075
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: music producer. We could look this up online, so what

1076
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:38,439
Speaker 1: what what does he actually do? Well? He also works

1077
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: with my bands, he's like our engineer, right, and he

1078
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: also produces bands on his own. So if he's producing

1079
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 1: bands on his own, is he tend to be in

1080
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 1: town with you? In Los Angeles or out of town.

1081
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: And if you go on the road, does he go

1082
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: with you on the road? Yes, and he does the

1083
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: sound on the road. So you're together. We're together. And

1084
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 1: how did you meet him? We hired him? You hired him?

1085
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: And how he was our guitar? Roadif how old is

1086
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,919
Speaker 1: he relative to you? He's a year younger than me? Okay,

1087
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: so basically the same age. How long did it became

1088
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: a romance? Oh? Years and years and year, years and

1089
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 1: years and years. He loved me from the day that

1090
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: he met me, he said, In fact, he said that

1091
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: he loved me before he met me because he'd heard

1092
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: me sing. And he used to listen to a garbage

1093
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: c D every night to go to sleep. Milk would

1094
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: send him to sleep every night. This was before we met.

1095
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: Then we met, and I couldn't have been less interested

1096
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: in him. And but then over the years he became

1097
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: a really good friend. And then I started to notice

1098
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,479
Speaker 1: that when he wasn't around, I didn't feel good. Really Yeah,

1099
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 1: but he was, you know, carrying a torch this whole

1100
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: and was devoted to me. Okay, So what what was

1101
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 1: the transition? What made it happen? I mean, I tell

1102
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: this story all the time, and people don't believe me,

1103
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: But this is how superficial and cheap I am. So

1104
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 1: my makeup artist at the time, unbeknownst to me, had

1105
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,760
Speaker 1: shaved his head because he had terrible hair, like thinning,

1106
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: long rocker hair, and she shaved it off so he

1107
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: had a little buzz cut. And I came down. We

1108
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,919
Speaker 1: were supporting I think Alanis Morisset, and we came down

1109
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: in a bus down the ramp towards the stadium, and

1110
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: there was a super hot guy standing by the side

1111
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 1: of the bus and I was like, he's hot. Oh ship,

1112
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: that's Billy Bush there and began the romance. Okay, and

1113
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: I actually married how long eight years? How long has

1114
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: the romance going on? M sixteen years? Maybe long time? Yeah?

1115
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: And now, uh, you were married once before I was.

1116
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: And what was that about. Well, it was about a

1117
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: gorgeous person who I still miss and love very much,

1118
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: but we were pulled apart by exchaneous circumstances. I started

1119
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: touring the world, and also I think I had rushed

1120
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: to his side because he was a paternal figure and

1121
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: I had been in a very destructive, sexually dangerous, abusive

1122
00:57:56,240 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: relationship until I met my first husband, so we kind

1123
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: of rescued you, Yes, he rescued And how did that end?

1124
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: It just ended it sadly in me becoming successful and

1125
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: going on tour and we've never seen each other, and

1126
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:16,479
Speaker 1: then the relationship just kind of deteriorated. And am I great,

1127
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: you don't have any children? Right? Oh? God? No? Okay,

1128
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: so that's a conscious thought. Yes, you always knew that

1129
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,479
Speaker 1: you were never gonna have children. No. I never knew

1130
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't have children, But I never ached for them.

1131
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: Like women talk a lot about aching in their wombs,

1132
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 1: and I would always be like, kind of like a

1133
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: dude looking at them blankly, like what does that even mean?

1134
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 1: I don't even know where that is. I had no

1135
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: aching in my womb and no longing for a child. Really,

1136
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: how about your husband? None either? Well I felt the

1137
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: same way. I felt that I was living my own

1138
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: life and I didn't want to subjugate myself. But once

1139
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: I hit forty, I realized life was meaningless. And I

1140
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: saw my sisters with their kids whatever, and I understood

1141
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: it at that point in time. But it's very much

1142
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: a different life when you don't have kids. I'm not

1143
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: complaining but it's different. People say, oh, I'm turned onto

1144
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: this and that by kids. I'm not turned on. I mean,

1145
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't happen to me. No, But I

1146
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: also don't believe one should live vicariously through your kids.

1147
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 1: I don't mean, like I couldn't agree more trying to say,

1148
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to musical trends. They'll be in

1149
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: the car and the kid will say, hey, put this

1150
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 1: on the radio here something you would normally not listen to.

1151
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: My Yeah, I mean, there's billions of children in my life, thankfully,

1152
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: so it's not like I'm out of contact with any

1153
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: kids or any new music or whatever. But for me personally,

1154
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: I think my mother was so devoted to me as

1155
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: a mom, like she was an orphan like my mom

1156
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: was had a crazy story. She was like an orphan

1157
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: child of a governess and a butler in a stately

1158
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,919
Speaker 1: home in Scotland, and the idea of her the mom

1159
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 1: having a child out of wedlock would have lost she

1160
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: would have lost her job and been you know, castigated.

1161
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: So they took the baby in a basket literally and

1162
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 1: dropped her off in an phonage and she was reared

1163
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: in the in the institution of you know, or orphanages.

1164
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: Until she was five years old. Family was really important

1165
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: to her and she dedicated herself slavishly. One would say

1166
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 1: to her children, and I think I just grew up thinking,

1167
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 1: no way am I doing that. That is not I'm

1168
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: not doing that. We're going to pause for a moment.

1169
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 1: We joined this conversation with truly mamson of the band Garbage.

1170
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: This is Bob left Sets. I love talking to people

1171
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: getting their stories, much like I do on this podcast.

1172
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: For tune in, I'll be talking to some of the

1173
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: most important people in the music and tech industries that

1174
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: my Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara the last week

1175
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: in of April. I'd love to have you joined the event.

1176
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: It's going to be a great way to connect in

1177
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: person with these high profile individuals learned how they made

1178
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 1: it in the future direction of their industries. Go to

1179
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: Music Media Summit dot com for tickets and more information.

1180
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 1: Let's continue the converse nation with the lead singer of

1181
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: the band Garbage, Shirley Manson. So for the last six

1182
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: months we've been living through this me too moment. First

1183
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: question would be, you know we talked about with your

1184
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: first band, but have you experienced any of this sexism

1185
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: or sexual harassment. Yeah, of course, every woman that you

1186
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: talk to will, unless she's incredibly privileged, you'll have a story. Now,

1187
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: on some level, you're very dynamic and very quick, but

1188
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 1: on some level, one level, some level, I'm gonna get

1189
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: to the other level. So on some level you're very

1190
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: dynamic and you're quick, okay, but you also tell stories

1191
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: of being shy and subservient. So where does this leave

1192
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: you in these situations? Well, that's a really good question.

1193
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's peculiar. I don't think anyone who hasn't

1194
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: been physically touched unwanted in an unwanted fashion really can

1195
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 1: understand why it's difficult sometimes to use your voice in

1196
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 1: that situation. Um I I consider myself a very dominant, aggressive,

1197
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 1: articulate person, and I've had my body touched and have

1198
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 1: frozen as recently as last year. Uh, when you were

1199
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: to the degree you're comfortable. What happened last year? I

1200
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 1: was at a radio festival and we were meeting competition

1201
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 1: winners and we had there was a long line of

1202
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: people that we were just standing in front of a

1203
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: backdrop and having our photographs taken, and some dude moves in,

1204
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 1: stands beside me, puts his hand on my breast. He's

1205
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 1: got his arm around me, and then puts his hand

1206
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: on my breast and I think, oh wow, he's he's

1207
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 1: so nervous and uncomfortable his hand on my breast. This

1208
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 1: is embarrassing, that's all right. And I tried to like shift,

1209
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: and he just kept on grabbing me. And then eventually

1210
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: I put my own hand on his hand and pushed

1211
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: his hand to try and get him off my breast,

1212
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: and he would not let go, And eventually I managed

1213
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: to push his hand down to my waist and we

1214
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: took the photograph and I was frozen like deer in

1215
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: the headlights, and he wandered off and I couldn't even

1216
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: look where he went, what direction he had gone, and

1217
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 1: I was just so my mind was so full of

1218
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: like wow, that dude just grab my tip in front

1219
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 1: of everybody. Now I'm not saying that's comparable to what

1220
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: a lot of women have experienced or some men, by

1221
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: the way, but it was unpleasant and I found it

1222
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: really upsetting. And I was angry at myself for not

1223
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: going dude and shouting, you know, calling him out, like

1224
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: what are you doing? But I didn't, and so it

1225
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: gave me some insight into the process that occurs for

1226
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: so many women in situations where they just freeze and

1227
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: they can't push back, they can't shout, they can't fight back,

1228
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 1: they can't say anything. It's mad. So let's just say,

1229
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 1: in the same thing would have happened this summer, do

1230
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: you think you would freeze again? I don't know, you know,

1231
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's something I don't think men understand.

1232
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: You See, It's like when you're a woman your entire life,

1233
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 1: when you walk out the house, you're aware that you

1234
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: could be hurt in some way and then never have

1235
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: that experience, not really, unless that're warfare. You know, generally speaking,

1236
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 1: a man doesn't have to think about his physical safety.

1237
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 1: Women think about all the time, and it's something that

1238
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: men go bless them, just cannot quite connect to the

1239
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: idea of Like, you know, you're walking down the street,

1240
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 1: you're nervous. Is some somebody whistles out your says something

1241
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 1: sexual to you. It's intimidating, it's frightening because you don't

1242
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: know where it can lead. You know, I was married

1243
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: to someone who did not have them as a guy.

1244
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 1: We've all been in places. We've hit on somebody that's

1245
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: kind a weird kind of tation. We've even talked to

1246
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 1: a woman okay, and they very specifically send a signal

1247
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: it's a brush off. I don't want to talk to you, okay,

1248
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:46,919
Speaker 1: And if you're a man, unfortunately, if someone doesn't give

1249
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 1: that signal, a lot of people but then see that

1250
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 1: as a green light unfortunately. So you fear as a woman,

1251
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: you feel you might get hurt to what degree? What

1252
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: behaviors doing you employ to make sure you don't get hurt? Well,

1253
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 1: I mean you're careful, you know. I've always been very careful.

1254
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: I don't walk down dark streets alone at night if

1255
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 1: I can possibly help it. If I am down in

1256
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 1: dark street at night by myself, I'm walking down the

1257
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: middle of the middle of the road because it was

1258
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: going to take a further distance to drag me from

1259
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 1: one side to the other. I mean silly things like that,

1260
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: you know. Um, I make it very clear, and I'm

1261
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:28,959
Speaker 1: very lucky in that I am not scared to say, dude,

1262
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: I'm not interested, you know, please go go back and

1263
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 1: join your friends or you know. I'm pretty clear, but not,

1264
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 1: But not all women are like that, And a lot

1265
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 1: of women have been conditioned to please men and up

1266
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: ease men, and they don't. They don't want to upset

1267
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 1: them or hurt their egos or or incite them, you know,

1268
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 1: to be aggressive. So there's a whole thing at play.

1269
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I know we've all talked about this for

1270
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 1: some months now, and my only feeling about it all

1271
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: is we need to educate our children, our boys, and

1272
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: our girls. And what would that look like, Well, you know,

1273
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: it's it's for men. I think it's really confusing. You know,

1274
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 1: there's a lot there's there's a lot of of depicting

1275
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: men in movies, in TV, in literature, you know, where

1276
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 1: the pursuit is romanticized, where they're encouraged to push even

1277
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: when a woman says no, that you know that they

1278
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 1: learned that maybe if they push a little harder, they'll

1279
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: finally get what they want. She'll relent, you know. Blah

1280
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: blah blah. There's all this misscons like misguiding stuff out

1281
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: there about what it means to be a dude. And

1282
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 1: I just think we need to to change a little

1283
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: just I just think a few tweaks and the way

1284
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 1: we raise our children will will help men and women

1285
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: co exist a little more comfortably with those tweaks look like.

1286
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 1: I think the great thing that I welcome the most

1287
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 1: right now is the breakdown of binary gender. I think

1288
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: that is a great start right there, where men are

1289
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:10,439
Speaker 1: not expected to be you know, the the the one

1290
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 1: who the alpha, yeah, or they're not expected to be

1291
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: the predator and or the chaser or the one who

1292
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: always asked a woman out in a day where it

1293
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: becomes a little more eglitarian where men and women are.

1294
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:25,080
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of the time when I was

1295
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 1: growing up in the seventies, women were just expected to wait,

1296
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: literally wait until a man asked her to dance, you know.

1297
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: So it all starts off at primary school for us,

1298
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 1: you know, like when you're five, you're you're lined up

1299
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: against the wall. This was in the seventies in Scotland,

1300
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: were all the women were lined up against the wall

1301
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 1: and then the men or the boys were sent now,

1302
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: go choose your partner, and the man would the boy

1303
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 1: would choose whoever they wanted to dance with. And that's

1304
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:54,840
Speaker 1: really crazy. You know. I'm not healthy and not good

1305
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,960
Speaker 1: and it starts right that early, you know. And I

1306
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: think boys are praised for being you know, good at

1307
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 1: sports and aggressive and and even violent, you know, and

1308
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: women are praised for being pretty and cute and small

1309
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: and just a little tweaks like that. You know, I

1310
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 1: think it could help change the Well, let's go back

1311
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: to your husband. You pull up in the bus, You

1312
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 1: see him with a buzz cut. You said that dude

1313
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 1: looks hot. You really recognize him very slowly. How do

1314
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 1: you change the signal you're sending to him? Well, these

1315
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 1: are my trade secrets. I don't serve them. You've already

1316
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 1: used them. You're getting you know, you're very happily married.

1317
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 1: Help the audience. No, no, no, that's that's my own game.

1318
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 1: That's my private game for sure. I mean, how how

1319
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 1: you you let someone know? I mean, I knew he

1320
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,600
Speaker 1: would loved me. Of course, we've established I loved you

1321
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 1: so well before he met you, So eventually I was

1322
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: just a bit more welcoming. You know, we'd spend time together,

1323
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 1: we'd looking you know, we just become really good friends. Okay,

1324
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 1: what advice would you give to someone where the other

1325
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 1: person's uh as ires are not as clear? I have

1326
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: no advice to give, because I think it's different for

1327
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 1: every single person. That's the thing where there's no blanket

1328
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: rulest there because each man and each woman and each

1329
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: any any person of any gender, we're all made up

1330
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 1: so differently, and so what what is seen as a

1331
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: as um a dance between the two is is so

1332
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:25,560
Speaker 1: unique to each relationship. I think you know, there's no

1333
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:28,719
Speaker 1: blanket advice i'd give anyone for fear of that biting

1334
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,080
Speaker 1: me in the ass. You sound like more of the

1335
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 1: type person would give advice and then when they came

1336
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:34,320
Speaker 1: back to it and said it did work, so well,

1337
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 1: you know, what the hell do I know that's true?

1338
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:38,639
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean I I the older I get,

1339
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: the less advice I want to get. And I feel

1340
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 1: the exact same way. Twenty years ago, I'd tell everybody

1341
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: how to live their lives. Now I'm not sure that

1342
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: I know what I'm talking about, and I know I

1343
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 1: have no idea what I'm talking and they say and

1344
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 1: they're not gonna listen to me exactly. It's like, why

1345
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: why ruin the relationship? But why waste the bread? Right now?

1346
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: The fantasy, the rock star fantasy, which aligns very much

1347
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: with the truth, is we have a guy who shy

1348
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: and he speaks to his guitar, and he feels, if

1349
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 1: I become successful musician, I will be able to have

1350
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, of sex life, etcetera. That's men on the road.

1351
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 1: It is very different today in light of cell phone cameras, etcetera.

1352
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 1: But prior to that, the legend was relatively true. The

1353
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 1: men went on the road. There were groupies. As David

1354
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,560
Speaker 1: lee Ros said, I know on the road and I

1355
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:29,679
Speaker 1: can get laid every night of the week, not necessarily

1356
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: by whom I want to get laid by, but every

1357
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 1: night of the week. As a woman being on the road,

1358
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:38,760
Speaker 1: what were your desires and your feelings in your own

1359
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 1: experience in this situation. I can remember, like you know,

1360
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,760
Speaker 1: being like number one all over the world. I was

1361
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:49,919
Speaker 1: all over like the coolest fashion magazines in the country.

1362
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 1: I was being lauded and applauded and and everything was

1363
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: tick tiboo from a professional standpoint. But I would go

1364
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 1: back to my hotel tell room by myself. Let's stop

1365
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: with what is tixie boo? Ticken tyboo just means you

1366
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 1: know what ticken e boo? Right, Okay, you can just

1367
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 1: hear from from hearing it. But did you go back

1368
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: to your hotel room happy or did you say, God,

1369
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: I'm on the cover every magazine. Here, I am alone.

1370
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 1: I probably went home back to my hotel room. How

1371
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 1: to wank? There is nobody around, you know, But I

1372
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: have to believe being that famous, invisible, men would try

1373
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:32,040
Speaker 1: to make themselves available. No, No, men were terrified of me. Absolutely.

1374
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: You're a band on the road, which means you're going

1375
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: to concert halls, you're going to radio stations. There's a

1376
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 1: lot of men there. None of those men starts not

1377
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 1: what not once? I never got hit home once. Wow. Again,

1378
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:51,599
Speaker 1: that's what I mean about the conditioning of the man too,

1379
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 1: how because men want to be the powerful alpha, and

1380
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 1: if you're the powerful alpha, that changes the dynamic. And

1381
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 1: no man really has been so I had to deal

1382
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:04,560
Speaker 1: with that. Not many men, I should say, again sweeping generalizations,

1383
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 1: but the majority of men don't know how to deal

1384
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: with a woman who's more successful than they are, and

1385
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, has has has a credit card and can

1386
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:15,880
Speaker 1: get herself out of any situation. She doesn't need the

1387
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 1: night in shining Armor to come save her. They don't

1388
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 1: know what to do with that. In your marriage, are

1389
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 1: you the one? Do you wear the pants and the family,

1390
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 1: so to speak. No, I actually we have a pretty

1391
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: balanced So you decide you're going to go to dinner,

1392
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 1: who chooses the restaurant changes every day? Okay, So I

1393
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 1: mean I'm not being funny, I'm not being flippant. I

1394
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 1: was interressed with you. So it's balanced in the relationship.

1395
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 1: So once you get over the threshold, you're willing to

1396
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,719
Speaker 1: be equal to the man as opposed to be dominant

1397
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 1: with the man. Well, I'll be dominant if I feel

1398
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 1: like this situation is not being taken care, of course,

1399
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 1: that's that's something different. So if we go back to

1400
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:57,720
Speaker 1: this situation, you're on top of the world, you're and

1401
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 1: there are no um boyfriends at the time, do you

1402
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: start to hit on them? Well, that's a good question.

1403
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. Some people say you're you you're flirting

1404
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 1: outrageously with him, and I'm like, no, I wasn't. Well,

1405
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 1: there's one thing to flirt outrageously and say I'm having fun,

1406
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 1: but I would never left this guy in my hotel room. Correct,

1407
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:21,120
Speaker 1: there's another thing to say, I'm having fun if the

1408
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 1: guy is fun and it might go somewhere. To be honest,

1409
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:27,679
Speaker 1: I'm not I can't I don't really have any memories

1410
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 1: of meeting somebody that was really interested in so because

1411
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 1: the pickens were slim or damn slim, and my standards

1412
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,640
Speaker 1: were high, I mean to be honest, And again I'm

1413
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 1: signing like a sort of a sort of old maid

1414
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 1: in that I have never wanted to just have sex

1415
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 1: with someone just to have sex, because I just think,

1416
01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:53,280
Speaker 1: statistically wise, there's very few people that are going to

1417
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:57,600
Speaker 1: make my experience worth it. So in general, I'm attracted

1418
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 1: to the brain first, and then then then I'm like, Okay,

1419
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:04,439
Speaker 1: sex could be interesting, Let's see where this goes. But

1420
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 1: it's usually brain first. I'm never like, oh he's hot,

1421
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:09,519
Speaker 1: I'm going to like go back to my you know.

1422
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:12,679
Speaker 1: That's you know, in my limited experience. That's women feel

1423
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 1: the same way. They have millions of women that I

1424
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,800
Speaker 1: know who are who will fux somebody for just sex.

1425
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:22,720
Speaker 1: Millions of them, I think so. But isn't that they're

1426
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:26,839
Speaker 1: the lower percentage? I don't know. Actually I would challenge

1427
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:29,439
Speaker 1: the idea. I think that's what we've been led to believe.

1428
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 1: It's like affairs, you know, supposedly, you know, more women

1429
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:38,680
Speaker 1: are having an affairs than men. What does that tell you.

1430
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 1: I think you know what it tells you. I know,

1431
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,559
Speaker 1: I'm only put myself in the ground a little bit more.

1432
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 1: I think it'll do a great degree. That's men who

1433
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 1: are not servicing is a terrible world. I don't mean

1434
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 1: in terms of sexual stuff, but they're not paying attention

1435
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:58,800
Speaker 1: to the woman. And the woman has opportunities. Well, women

1436
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 1: are finding opportunities for themselves and and and as they

1437
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:04,680
Speaker 1: get older, they get better at doing that, and then

1438
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:07,160
Speaker 1: it seems lose their confidence. It's it's a sort of

1439
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 1: flip of the way we are that we developed that

1440
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 1: the way we educate. I think women as they get older,

1441
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 1: get smarter, and they're like, oh, wait a minute, what

1442
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 1: a con this has been, you know, And men suddenly realize, oh,

1443
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 1: I'm not quite the dominant, gorgeous stud I thought I was.

1444
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 1: If their confidence drops, women's confidence rises. And so there

1445
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:30,840
Speaker 1: you have men break up and they go hang with

1446
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 1: their budge and they watch ESPN and they drink beer

1447
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 1: and they don't even talk about it. Women women don't.

1448
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 1: Women rally around each other and can live without a man.

1449
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 1: It's the men who are That's right, motherfucker's exactly. But

1450
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:44,800
Speaker 1: that's the men who are weak, they don't want to

1451
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:46,920
Speaker 1: admit it. No, it's not that they're weak. I mean,

1452
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:50,320
Speaker 1: I think again, they're just not given the tools. They're

1453
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 1: not educated. They're not sow on how to age, they're

1454
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:56,479
Speaker 1: not sown how to live and have bigger women are

1455
01:15:56,880 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 1: taught how to survive in ways that men are, and

1456
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 1: vice versa. You know. So this is what I'm talking

1457
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: about goes back to what I'm saying earlier. We need

1458
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 1: to change the way we educated. We can all have

1459
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 1: happy health. I agree with better taught to go. I'll

1460
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,760
Speaker 1: be hunters, but that's about it. It was funny you

1461
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 1: should say that because I suddenly had this sort of

1462
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:21,600
Speaker 1: realization very recently. I was watching a TV show and

1463
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,479
Speaker 1: it was about the Vikings and and men were getting

1464
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:27,759
Speaker 1: sent off to you know, to fight, and it was brutal,

1465
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 1: and I was like, God, I think those those times,

1466
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 1: it must have been horrendous. And then it made me

1467
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: think of all the men that get sent off to

1468
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 1: this day into war. And men are sort of like

1469
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:40,879
Speaker 1: they are educated to to shut something off in themselves

1470
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:42,639
Speaker 1: so that they will be willing to go and fight

1471
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:45,200
Speaker 1: for their countries, you know, and get into these terrifying

1472
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 1: situations that never really happens to women. Not really again,

1473
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 1: sweeping generalizations. There's plenty of women in the services and

1474
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:55,640
Speaker 1: and so on, But you know, sort of over the

1475
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 1: last few centuries, men have been taught a certain way

1476
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 1: so that they mindlessly going and and fight to their deaths.

1477
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:07,280
Speaker 1: And and we that that society has changed slightly since then.

1478
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 1: And I think it's also changed because I grew up

1479
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:12,120
Speaker 1: in aror of a draft where it kind of cross classes,

1480
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 1: where now it's an all volunteer army where the educating

1481
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 1: which tend not to go. Okay, But you've traveled around

1482
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 1: the world, where's the best or most exciting place, her

1483
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:24,679
Speaker 1: favorite place you've been? Well, again, I don't believe in best,

1484
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:27,920
Speaker 1: to be honest, I don't. I really really fight that

1485
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 1: idea of all every fiber of my being, because like

1486
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:33,120
Speaker 1: I come from a family where my dad marks everything

1487
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 1: out of tain It drives me insane. To me, I

1488
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 1: feel like life is always surprising. You can go like

1489
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:43,720
Speaker 1: you can go to Paris and have a dreadful experience

1490
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:47,200
Speaker 1: hard to imagine, of course, So when you say what's

1491
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:49,840
Speaker 1: the best, it's just what I guess is the most

1492
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 1: enjoyable on any given day. Yeah, and everywhere I go

1493
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 1: as a musician, and I've traveled almost everywhere at this point,

1494
01:17:56,640 --> 01:18:00,040
Speaker 1: I always managed to have an extraordinary, unique experience, And

1495
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:05,520
Speaker 1: even if sometimes it's fraught with difficulty or there's an unpleasantry, overall,

1496
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:09,000
Speaker 1: I just find everywhere I go fascinating. It's and travel

1497
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:12,120
Speaker 1: has been the greatest privilege of my entire life. To

1498
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: go to the cities, to countries and see how other

1499
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 1: people live, how they think, is really really fascinating, endlessly

1500
01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. Well, I have a friend who was

1501
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,559
Speaker 1: the photographer for Led Zeppelin, and he says, I've been

1502
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 1: around the world and I've seen nothing. So are you

1503
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 1: the type then that he's a fool? Of course, my

1504
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:34,679
Speaker 1: question is he also was staying up all night developing

1505
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 1: film in the film era, so the band could wake

1506
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:39,240
Speaker 1: up and see the photos from the night before, so

1507
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:41,160
Speaker 1: it wasn't totally his fault. But there a lot of

1508
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:44,040
Speaker 1: people they go, they go from the bus to the

1509
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 1: hotel to the gig, and they don't really see anything.

1510
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 1: Are you the type of person who takes advantage in

1511
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 1: these very I try? I try always to get up early,

1512
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:54,280
Speaker 1: like you know will have traveled over you know, from

1513
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 1: I don't know, New York to to South after Cape

1514
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:00,240
Speaker 1: Town for a random example, and we've had no but

1515
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 1: I'll still get up after two hours to go on

1516
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 1: SAFARTI because I know this will never happen to me again.

1517
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:07,360
Speaker 1: You know. We get to Istanbul, same thing, We've been

1518
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 1: traveling all night, but you get the opportunity to go

1519
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:11,240
Speaker 1: to the Blue mosque, you know, and have your mind blown.

1520
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 1: It's just I feel it's really important, you know too,

1521
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 1: to take advantage of those moments where you really get

1522
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:24,800
Speaker 1: shown so much and it does shift your perspective so much. Absolutely.

1523
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,160
Speaker 1: One of the problems you know with America is people

1524
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 1: haven't been anywhere, and I think it's the greatest I mean,

1525
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:32,640
Speaker 1: tuck very minor things. You go to a European or

1526
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 1: you know, UK, it's finally coming to America. They have

1527
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:39,639
Speaker 1: the dual flush toilet. I mean, that's a good idea. Okay,

1528
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 1: they just recently come to America where they can change

1529
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:48,000
Speaker 1: the price of the gas electronically. These are not major things,

1530
01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:50,400
Speaker 1: but everybody in the United States to give it's oh

1531
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 1: where we are, it couldn't be any better. Where It's

1532
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 1: much better in many other places, of course, but then

1533
01:19:56,280 --> 01:20:00,519
Speaker 1: there's also incredibly beautiful, precious things about at the US,

1534
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:05,519
Speaker 1: which you know, for me as an immigrant, you know,

1535
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 1: coming here, my entire career is down to America. Like

1536
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 1: I will never forget that. I have deep, deep love

1537
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:15,600
Speaker 1: for this country. And a lot of people in the

1538
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 1: rest of the world take swings of America for a

1539
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:21,599
Speaker 1: lot of different reasons, you know, But I always describe

1540
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 1: America as being in a really innocent like everybody's like, no,

1541
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,880
Speaker 1: it's just vulgar. No, it's not vulgar. It's innocent because

1542
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:32,719
Speaker 1: what of the population has never traversed outside the national boundaries.

1543
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 1: And like you say, everyone believes that they're the best

1544
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:38,600
Speaker 1: in America, that they've got the best country, and and

1545
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 1: you know, one would argue that's not the case anymore,

1546
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:45,519
Speaker 1: you know, And and that is a great sadness. But also, hey,

1547
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 1: welcome to the rest of the world. Were exactly, we're

1548
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 1: all the same, We're just all trying to figure everything out.

1549
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:54,599
Speaker 1: And um, I think that what's what is both awful

1550
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,160
Speaker 1: about the Internet, but what's also so great about it

1551
01:20:57,360 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 1: is it will and it is slowly impacting America and

1552
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 1: changing the way people think and everyone is becoming a

1553
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:05,880
Speaker 1: bit more educated about other ways of life. It doesn't

1554
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: feel like that right now for obvious reasons. But I

1555
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: think ultimately, over the next thirty forty fifty years whatever,

1556
01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 1: that America is going to change all for the better.

1557
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 1: Now the thirty years you have left, what would you

1558
01:21:20,280 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 1: like to accomplish or do? I want to continue to

1559
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 1: travel as much as possible. That is my biggest desire.

1560
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:31,639
Speaker 1: And not to lose my curiosity. I want to remain

1561
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 1: curious if I and to keep and to try and

1562
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 1: nurture courage. I think that looks like that. I will

1563
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,600
Speaker 1: continue to try new things that I will try and

1564
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 1: and meet people and without judgment, you know, and try

1565
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:51,759
Speaker 1: and listen, try, and I want to be a better listener.

1566
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:55,040
Speaker 1: That's that's a big thing for me. I like, I

1567
01:21:55,160 --> 01:21:58,519
Speaker 1: want to be in service rather than serving myself, you know.

1568
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:00,560
Speaker 1: And I'm in an industry. What I've done nothing but

1569
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:03,640
Speaker 1: served myself for twenty old years, you know. And I

1570
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 1: want to change that as much as possible as my

1571
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 1: life progresses. I want to be in service. Okay, I

1572
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:12,599
Speaker 1: call you up or I text you and I say

1573
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:17,640
Speaker 1: let's go to I need to write to there. No, no, no, uh,

1574
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 1: we're gonna go. I want to take you to this

1575
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:24,519
Speaker 1: restaurant where you know they serve bird eggs and all that.

1576
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:26,760
Speaker 1: Are you say, I'm into it as a new experience.

1577
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I've eaten some terrible things. But I

1578
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 1: always want to try. I don't want to be that

1579
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 1: person who's scared to try because I've discovered incredible things

1580
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:39,720
Speaker 1: that I didn't think I would like. Forgetting food, but

1581
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 1: just looking at the situation in general, have you ever

1582
01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 1: said yes to something and said, oh, that was a

1583
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:48,599
Speaker 1: big mistake. Yes? Do you remember anything? Yes, Space Mountain

1584
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,479
Speaker 1: and Disneyland. I said yes, and I went on it,

1585
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:55,680
Speaker 1: and I wished I hadn't said yes. I really hated it. Well,

1586
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:57,720
Speaker 1: the funny thing about it is I didn't go on

1587
01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 1: Space Mountain. That's horrible. Until you know, sometime like then

1588
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:06,280
Speaker 1: in this century, okay, you know, they'd say Disneyland is

1589
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 1: the happiest place on Earth, and no, it's the most

1590
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 1: miserable place there. It's a place where I would never

1591
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:12,880
Speaker 1: need go. I like to do everything in life once

1592
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:14,600
Speaker 1: just so I could talk about it. And so I

1593
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 1: wrent there. It was greater or it sucked whatever. But

1594
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:19,200
Speaker 1: I was not a Disneyland person. But I went with

1595
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 1: my nephews and we went on Space Mountain. I'm not

1596
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:25,880
Speaker 1: a big roller coaster person. Whatever, But the fact that

1597
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:27,920
Speaker 1: the roller coaster was underground, you know, because most of

1598
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 1: the rides at Disneyland are disappointing as rides, I thought

1599
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 1: it was pretty good. Yeah, I wouldn't say, see, I

1600
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:37,920
Speaker 1: didn't find Disney Disneyland Rights disappointing. Far from it. I

1601
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:41,000
Speaker 1: really enjoyed myself. However, my I did not find it

1602
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:43,040
Speaker 1: the happiest place on Earth. I found it one of

1603
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:45,240
Speaker 1: the most miserable places on Earth. I was engulfed in

1604
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:50,000
Speaker 1: children's farts the entire time I was there. I hated

1605
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:52,479
Speaker 1: standing for an hour and a half for a two minute, right,

1606
01:23:52,600 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 1: you know. But when I go into Space Mountain, I

1607
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:58,080
Speaker 1: knew that it was like the pre move Right. Everyone

1608
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:00,080
Speaker 1: was like, this is going to blow your mind, and

1609
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:05,000
Speaker 1: I I honestly thought I was gonna have a heart attack. Really, yes,

1610
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:08,599
Speaker 1: it was awful. That's one thing. I remember. They had

1611
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,680
Speaker 1: a they're still there. They have something called the Revolution.

1612
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:14,160
Speaker 1: Maybe they're gonna tear it downs. Original roller coaster at

1613
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,160
Speaker 1: Magic Mountain and the seventies. It was the first roller

1614
01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:19,960
Speaker 1: cuature that went upside down. So I remember getting on.

1615
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:21,840
Speaker 1: It would go up a little hill, gonna curve and

1616
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:24,080
Speaker 1: then you and your theorical then you were You're there.

1617
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:26,960
Speaker 1: I am so freaked up. You can't get off. It's

1618
01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:28,760
Speaker 1: like you're there. It's like there's nothing I can do.

1619
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 1: But I like being on the little teacups. I feel safe.

1620
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 1: Vomit cups really, oh man, those are really That was

1621
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:41,920
Speaker 1: one of the original rides. But m music drove the

1622
01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:44,559
Speaker 1: culture in the era that you grew up in an iron,

1623
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:47,519
Speaker 1: I do not believe music drives the culture at this

1624
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:53,360
Speaker 1: particularly do I just think there's no common music driving

1625
01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 1: the entire culture, if that makes any sense. I think

1626
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:58,360
Speaker 1: music has got a big an influence now than it

1627
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:03,680
Speaker 1: arguably ever. But it's all, you know, fractionalized or what's

1628
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 1: the word I'm looking. You know, I get what you're saying.

1629
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 1: You know, they're all these different niches. Why do you

1630
01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:09,600
Speaker 1: think it has as much. I mean, if I go

1631
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:12,240
Speaker 1: back to the sixties, a rock star would say something

1632
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 1: and be on the radio and it would change thinking

1633
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:16,680
Speaker 1: in the role to general. I don't think that happens. No,

1634
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't have the same cultural impact because everyone's not

1635
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:22,200
Speaker 1: listening to the same one artist. You know, when Elvis

1636
01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:24,400
Speaker 1: was singing, we were all listening to Elvis. You know,

1637
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 1: not you you were too well, I was too young.

1638
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:28,519
Speaker 1: But I'm I'm trying to talk talk to It's okay,

1639
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 1: but I gotta bust you every chance I have. I

1640
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 1: gotta wake up. I gotta take some of that speed

1641
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,200
Speaker 1: to get here. So I take my chances with the

1642
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:43,040
Speaker 1: alpha female whenever I can get up. Feel respect. Okay.

1643
01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 1: So in any event, you're you're saying that it's not

1644
01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:49,559
Speaker 1: driving the culture like it used in the days of Elvis. Well,

1645
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 1: single artists and bands are not. They don't have the

1646
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 1: same cultural impact. But music has never been more listened

1647
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:58,920
Speaker 1: to ever historically speaking. I agree. But do you play

1648
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 1: at home? Do you play music? Yes? And what do

1649
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 1: you play? I listened to all kinds of music. I

1650
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:07,560
Speaker 1: mean that sounds like such a copipe. I really do.

1651
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:11,840
Speaker 1: And I've just taken very recently too. Instead of like

1652
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:16,400
Speaker 1: sort of of curating my listening habits recently, I've just

1653
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:19,360
Speaker 1: put my I've just turned my phone on and put

1654
01:26:19,479 --> 01:26:22,120
Speaker 1: it through this system and just listen to anything from

1655
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 1: my playlist that the phone dictates, and it's been extraordinary.

1656
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 1: I've loved it. But these are songs that you originally picked. Well,

1657
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:31,240
Speaker 1: there's certainly albums that I've picked. Yeah, But like I said,

1658
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 1: I listened to classical, I listened to j azz, I

1659
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:34,720
Speaker 1: listened to blues, I listen to Paula, I listen to rock,

1660
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:36,639
Speaker 1: I listen to heavy metal. I mean, I will listen

1661
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:38,840
Speaker 1: to anything, but I get overwhelmed. I mean it's like

1662
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:40,959
Speaker 1: if you go on Spotify or any of the services

1663
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:43,320
Speaker 1: and you listen to the new music and they break

1664
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:46,040
Speaker 1: it down by genre, and you say, okay, there's fifty

1665
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:49,160
Speaker 1: country tracks, fifty damce tracks, and if you listen to fifty,

1666
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:51,880
Speaker 1: you'll find one or two good ones, and you start

1667
01:26:51,960 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 1: to get overwhelmed. Yeah, it's overwhelming, you know, and a

1668
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:57,080
Speaker 1: lot of times you'll find something go, you'll reach it.

1669
01:26:57,320 --> 01:26:59,439
Speaker 1: Is anybody else I like this as anybody else like

1670
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:03,200
Speaker 1: the there's no coherence to the culture. That's true. But

1671
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 1: is that about then? I'm not that's about I think

1672
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:09,640
Speaker 1: to do. No. I hate being told what to do.

1673
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:12,120
Speaker 1: But it goes back to what we're talking about earlier

1674
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:14,760
Speaker 1: in terms of argument. We live in an era where

1675
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:17,599
Speaker 1: everyone has their own facts in their own lives, which

1676
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:22,360
Speaker 1: is almost a tower of Babel society. And even with

1677
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:25,040
Speaker 1: television where in the golden age of television and is

1678
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:27,680
Speaker 1: there are a lot fewer television shows than there are

1679
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:31,639
Speaker 1: music shows. But even then we'll find well, we can't

1680
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:34,519
Speaker 1: talk because we didn't see the same shows, we didn't

1681
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:39,479
Speaker 1: see the same movies. Okay, so there's no community fiber No,

1682
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:42,600
Speaker 1: that's true. But we don't know yet where that's going

1683
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:45,200
Speaker 1: to go. That might go somewhere fantastic, we just don't

1684
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:48,240
Speaker 1: know yet. Well, I think I believe it's going to

1685
01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:50,880
Speaker 1: go along the lines of Americ at large, which is

1686
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:54,439
Speaker 1: winners and losers. I believe we have an inherent desire

1687
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:58,080
Speaker 1: to be with other people, like you talk about going

1688
01:27:58,120 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 1: out to breakfast or dinner whatever, or to be able

1689
01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:03,160
Speaker 1: to say, oh I saw that show. It sucked, okay.

1690
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:06,639
Speaker 1: And therefore there's a lot of rabble rousing from people

1691
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:09,640
Speaker 1: who are not successful. But the reasons if you look

1692
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:11,720
Speaker 1: at the movie business, like and I don't go to

1693
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 1: the movies. First of they don't start when you want

1694
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:15,519
Speaker 1: them to start. And I have so much I don't

1695
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:17,360
Speaker 1: have any time, and I have so many options at

1696
01:28:17,400 --> 01:28:20,680
Speaker 1: home on the flat screen. But if you look at

1697
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:24,760
Speaker 1: the weekly grossers, you know, Black Panther well far eclips

1698
01:28:24,800 --> 01:28:27,000
Speaker 1: all the other movies combined. And I think part of

1699
01:28:27,040 --> 01:28:29,800
Speaker 1: the people say, oh, yeah, I saw that good bad. Otherwise,

1700
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:32,680
Speaker 1: I think there's a desire for community. There is a

1701
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 1: desire for community. But at the same time, I do

1702
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 1: believe in the principle of evolution. I have faith in

1703
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:43,080
Speaker 1: evolution that evolution will sort this out sooner or later.

1704
01:28:43,280 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 1: I mean, every generation moans about the new generation that's

1705
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 1: in place, you know, And I feel that we always

1706
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:56,160
Speaker 1: harp on about how things once were, forgetting the evolution

1707
01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:59,320
Speaker 1: has always like I have better life than my mom did,

1708
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 1: and my mom has better life than my granny did.

1709
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:04,639
Speaker 1: And I have to assume that my all my friends

1710
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:06,800
Speaker 1: kids will have a better life than and than we did.

1711
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:10,720
Speaker 1: And I think that's a great thing. And I think

1712
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 1: we can all sort of like pick over the carcass

1713
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:17,519
Speaker 1: of what once was, or we can embrace what is.

1714
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:19,439
Speaker 1: And I want to be and what is I'm going

1715
01:29:19,479 --> 01:29:21,880
Speaker 1: to embrace what is. Well, I'm gonna argue with you, Okay,

1716
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 1: in my generation, I know a lot of people are

1717
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 1: not doing as well as their parents. Okay, the baby boomers,

1718
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:29,400
Speaker 1: their parents had a lot. But you're you're talking about

1719
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:32,719
Speaker 1: economics though, right, you're talking about house and money, okay,

1720
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:37,679
Speaker 1: and you're talking about rights, freedoms, well, knowledge, I would

1721
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 1: argue me, gay people can get married in America, which

1722
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:42,479
Speaker 1: is wonderful. I gret a lot of that to MTV.

1723
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:45,240
Speaker 1: People saw a rainbow of colors there and therefore they were,

1724
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,439
Speaker 1: you know, there's less racism, etcetera. But we live in

1725
01:29:48,479 --> 01:29:50,840
Speaker 1: a country. By the way, there isn't less racism. But

1726
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 1: that's a whole lot of I would look back to that.

1727
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:58,720
Speaker 1: I believe in America there is less racism, but you

1728
01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:02,160
Speaker 1: have a very vocal mind party who was afraid of losing.

1729
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:04,840
Speaker 1: I have to disagree. You're talking from a very white,

1730
01:30:04,880 --> 01:30:08,160
Speaker 1: privileged position. Now I'm saying that if you go back

1731
01:30:08,320 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 1: decades and you saw an interracial couple walking down the street,

1732
01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 1: chances are there to be sneers or comments. I believe

1733
01:30:17,080 --> 01:30:19,720
Speaker 1: there are less and now we're all victims of our

1734
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 1: own experience. And I'm not saying there's not racism, there's

1735
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 1: not anti semitism, there's not sexism. But I believe, but

1736
01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:31,799
Speaker 1: I believe as a result of media, there's a certain

1737
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:35,240
Speaker 1: level of enlightenment. I view as a result of the

1738
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:40,320
Speaker 1: economic disparity. Okay, the people who have been left out,

1739
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:42,840
Speaker 1: whether through their own faults or not through room fault,

1740
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:48,960
Speaker 1: have started to rebel around the world Brexit, Trump, etcetera.

1741
01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:53,000
Speaker 1: And it's focused on those people. Unfortunately, with that has

1742
01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:55,800
Speaker 1: come racism. And I don't want to comment on the

1743
01:30:55,840 --> 01:30:57,200
Speaker 1: rest of the rule because I'm not as much of

1744
01:30:57,240 --> 01:31:00,479
Speaker 1: an expert, but in America, I would believe pound for

1745
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:04,680
Speaker 1: pound there's less racism and less homophobia than there was.

1746
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:07,560
Speaker 1: Not that there isn't very vocal racism and homophobia, but

1747
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 1: I think we're you know, it's like Jerry Springer, who

1748
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:13,320
Speaker 1: used to be the mayor of Cleveland, Okay, before he

1749
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:16,040
Speaker 1: had his insane show, And he's not a stupid guy.

1750
01:31:16,120 --> 01:31:19,599
Speaker 1: He says, the liberals always win in the end, Okay,

1751
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:23,759
Speaker 1: all the things that were unthinkable, you know, abortion, gay marriage, etcetera, etcetera,

1752
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 1: they're happening. Eventually the rest of the world wakes up. Well,

1753
01:31:28,840 --> 01:31:30,840
Speaker 1: I don't even notice where to start without to be honest,

1754
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:34,960
Speaker 1: we'll start anywhere, but I'll start with have you I

1755
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:36,840
Speaker 1: don't know what that is. It's a documentary about the

1756
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:43,439
Speaker 1: penal system here in America. No have you seen back.

1757
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:46,360
Speaker 1: But you're making the point that a whole generation of

1758
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:49,040
Speaker 1: African Americans were wiping up by putting them in gails.

1759
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:52,040
Speaker 1: It's not what you're making. I agree totally. You know

1760
01:31:52,439 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of endemic problems. I'm not apologizing

1761
01:31:56,080 --> 01:31:59,840
Speaker 1: for them. But what I'm saying is that I believe

1762
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:05,799
Speaker 1: that generally it's gone. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Well, again,

1763
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:08,160
Speaker 1: it's complex, isn't it. There are some people who get

1764
01:32:08,240 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 1: left behind this, but generally speaking, our generation has it

1765
01:32:12,160 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 1: better than the previous generation. And then there are parts

1766
01:32:16,680 --> 01:32:19,960
Speaker 1: of our society who are being left behind, and that's

1767
01:32:20,240 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 1: blacks and and people of color aggressively so, but it's

1768
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:25,840
Speaker 1: also white. I don't want to make this, as you know,

1769
01:32:25,920 --> 01:32:28,360
Speaker 1: white apologists, but just to illuminate the point, this is

1770
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:31,280
Speaker 1: how Trump got elected. There are people as a result

1771
01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:35,680
Speaker 1: of the economic changes they in globalization, they don't have

1772
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 1: if you're left behind. And and then the crazy thing,

1773
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:41,000
Speaker 1: same thing with Brexit. Their solution is let's chet back

1774
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:43,120
Speaker 1: to the past, and the past is never coming back.

1775
01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:46,040
Speaker 1: But that's Trump's approach to It's it's very like I

1776
01:32:46,200 --> 01:32:47,880
Speaker 1: just did never believe you can look back. I think

1777
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:50,400
Speaker 1: you must always look forward to you know. Well, the

1778
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:52,640
Speaker 1: scary thing is I mean I certainly lived through the

1779
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:55,559
Speaker 1: sixties with the Vietnam War and the draft, but since

1780
01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:58,960
Speaker 1: then in America, this is the first time where every

1781
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 1: you're addicted to the news and it's uh, it's just

1782
01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:05,439
Speaker 1: like when the wall fell, When the wall fell in

1783
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:07,639
Speaker 1: Berlin and you were there, we were of the illusion

1784
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:10,960
Speaker 1: in America the other doctor, democracy will reign. And now

1785
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:14,439
Speaker 1: you have booting, you know, assassinating spies in a different country,

1786
01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:17,760
Speaker 1: and we have you know, you know, we have the

1787
01:33:19,040 --> 01:33:21,800
Speaker 1: head of the country for life in China. It's you know,

1788
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:24,439
Speaker 1: the world is going to it. You know, it's going

1789
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:29,080
Speaker 1: to exactly as my dad says. And I actually feel

1790
01:33:29,120 --> 01:33:32,120
Speaker 1: like I have to cling onto this analogy, which is,

1791
01:33:32,280 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 1: you know, evolution happens whether we like it or not.

1792
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 1: It's just what occurs when you leave humans on a

1793
01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:44,759
Speaker 1: planet for long enough, they will evolve. And there's always

1794
01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:47,360
Speaker 1: moments he said, it's just like it's like tight, it's

1795
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:49,920
Speaker 1: like title shifts, you know, you it's the type gets

1796
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:52,960
Speaker 1: sucked back for a moment, and then it searches forward,

1797
01:33:53,000 --> 01:33:55,479
Speaker 1: and it searches for further forward than it did before.

1798
01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:58,519
Speaker 1: And that's that's always what my dad says to try

1799
01:33:58,560 --> 01:34:00,600
Speaker 1: and calm me down when I'm getting his terrecal and

1800
01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:04,360
Speaker 1: full of desperate depression about the way the world is turning.

1801
01:34:04,439 --> 01:34:09,280
Speaker 1: He's like, it's will turn back, generally speaking, as I

1802
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:12,800
Speaker 1: used to be a terrible pessimist, and then something turned

1803
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:15,040
Speaker 1: around when my mom died for me, like I was

1804
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:17,519
Speaker 1: like a bolt from the blue I had. I was

1805
01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:21,000
Speaker 1: forced to change my thinking because if I hadn't changed

1806
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:24,360
Speaker 1: my thinking, I would have died of grief. And and

1807
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 1: I I just decided me. I made a decision that

1808
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:30,320
Speaker 1: the light because my mom had a lot of light

1809
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 1: in her. She was a real people pleaser, my mom,

1810
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:34,720
Speaker 1: because she'd been a norphan and she wants people to

1811
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:37,200
Speaker 1: love her and like her, and so she brought light

1812
01:34:37,320 --> 01:34:40,160
Speaker 1: into every situation. And I used to annoy me, you know,

1813
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:44,400
Speaker 1: as a moody teenager. It just fucking and irritated me.

1814
01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:47,719
Speaker 1: And then when she died, I realized that light is gone.

1815
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:50,040
Speaker 1: You know, people would say to me at my mom's funeral,

1816
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:52,360
Speaker 1: you know your mom always you never left your mom

1817
01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:55,080
Speaker 1: feeling worse. You always left your mom feeling better than

1818
01:34:55,120 --> 01:34:57,960
Speaker 1: you did before you bumped into her. And I just

1819
01:34:58,080 --> 01:35:00,320
Speaker 1: made this decision that I had to do something with

1820
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 1: my mom's light. I couldn't let it go and dissipate

1821
01:35:03,080 --> 01:35:05,080
Speaker 1: into nothing. That's I had to hold a bit of

1822
01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 1: her light in me, and I used that to change

1823
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:11,360
Speaker 1: the way I approached my life. It sounds really okay,

1824
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:14,439
Speaker 1: but it's really true, and it was quite that conscious.

1825
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:16,640
Speaker 1: It was conscious. Yeah. I was just like, I need

1826
01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:19,360
Speaker 1: to change the way I I don't want people to

1827
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:21,479
Speaker 1: leave me feeling worse. I don't want to be a

1828
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:24,519
Speaker 1: vibe crush. I don't want people to feel yucky around me.

1829
01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:26,479
Speaker 1: And you know, we're all aware of what that's like

1830
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:29,120
Speaker 1: to bump into somebody who makes us feel disgusting. You know,

1831
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:33,320
Speaker 1: whether they're irritable, whether they're depressed, whether they moan, whether

1832
01:35:33,360 --> 01:35:35,200
Speaker 1: they only talk about themselves. I don't know, there's a

1833
01:35:35,240 --> 01:35:37,599
Speaker 1: million one reasons why we don't like being around people. Yeah,

1834
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 1: and I was just like, I want to be a

1835
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:42,679
Speaker 1: person in the world that makes people feel good again.

1836
01:35:42,720 --> 01:35:44,760
Speaker 1: I go back this word of being in service, Like

1837
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:47,680
Speaker 1: I just I want to take my Mom's light and

1838
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:50,040
Speaker 1: give it to someone else so we can spread these

1839
01:35:50,160 --> 01:35:54,240
Speaker 1: particles of my amazing mother. When you talk about service,

1840
01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:59,720
Speaker 1: that's twelve step language. Is that where you got it? Oh? God, no, no?

1841
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:03,439
Speaker 1: And you never had a problem with alcohol problem? Okay,

1842
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:05,719
Speaker 1: that's not to say I won't develop one. I love alcohol.

1843
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:10,439
Speaker 1: I had to stop drinking alcohol because I was definitely

1844
01:36:10,479 --> 01:36:12,720
Speaker 1: the type person who couldn't have only one. If you

1845
01:36:12,760 --> 01:36:14,439
Speaker 1: want to have one or two drinks, didn't you didn't

1846
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:15,559
Speaker 1: call me you want to have the night of your

1847
01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:20,200
Speaker 1: life or attempt? You know. Oh boy, I can tell

1848
01:36:20,280 --> 01:36:23,040
Speaker 1: story after story, and then then there's you know how I,

1849
01:36:23,320 --> 01:36:25,320
Speaker 1: and then how I finally stopped and I did not

1850
01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:27,880
Speaker 1: stop saying, Oh I'm never gonna I'm never gonna have

1851
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:30,240
Speaker 1: another drink. It's just my life got way too crazy,

1852
01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:34,760
Speaker 1: and uh, excuse me. I want to know more. This

1853
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:37,200
Speaker 1: is a much longer story, but I'll give you just

1854
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:41,920
Speaker 1: the tip of it. Yeah, give me the crucial. So

1855
01:36:42,040 --> 01:36:46,120
Speaker 1: this was nineteen This is a long time ago, one

1856
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 1: going into two, and I had been stopped for drunk

1857
01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:55,400
Speaker 1: driving on the night that John Lennon got died. John

1858
01:36:55,479 --> 01:36:59,000
Speaker 1: and Jack shot and died. That's an amazing story unto itself.

1859
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:03,640
Speaker 1: But I ultimately got a reckless driving as opposed to

1860
01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:08,080
Speaker 1: d u Y and there's a condition with that where

1861
01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:11,599
Speaker 1: you can't drive within eight hours of having a drink.

1862
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:14,760
Speaker 1: And in the time it took for that case to

1863
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:18,439
Speaker 1: come to court, I've been stopped once again on the

1864
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:23,800
Speaker 1: four oh five in that point. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to

1865
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:27,000
Speaker 1: this week's edition of the Bob Left Sets podcast. My

1866
01:37:27,200 --> 01:37:31,520
Speaker 1: guest this week is vocalist extraordinaire lead singer of Garbage,

1867
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:38,560
Speaker 1: Shirley Manson. Shirley, back out here. Okay, you're from Scotland.

1868
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:42,840
Speaker 1: We are really Scotland ignorant here. Okay, what's it like

1869
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:47,160
Speaker 1: growing up in Scotland. Well, you know, at the time,

1870
01:37:47,240 --> 01:37:50,080
Speaker 1: it didn't feel so fantastic, but looking back on it

1871
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:52,400
Speaker 1: now I realized what a privilege it was, you know,

1872
01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:55,920
Speaker 1: because it's a small island and it was a time

1873
01:37:56,240 --> 01:37:58,120
Speaker 1: I was I was born in sixty six, so I

1874
01:37:58,200 --> 01:37:59,680
Speaker 1: grew up in the seventies and it was at a

1875
01:37:59,760 --> 01:38:03,600
Speaker 1: time when the British government actually paid for education, They

1876
01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:06,360
Speaker 1: put money into it. We all had government run schools

1877
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:08,479
Speaker 1: and they were and they were well funded, so had

1878
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:12,519
Speaker 1: a great education. I had. I came from a family,

1879
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:15,679
Speaker 1: three children. My mom and dad loved each other until

1880
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:19,840
Speaker 1: death did they part? And I think, now knowing what

1881
01:38:19,920 --> 01:38:23,920
Speaker 1: I know, that's really unusual to certainly with the younger generations.

1882
01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:26,599
Speaker 1: I mean, the only thing I haven't been to Scotland,

1883
01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 1: but there was that movie and I can't remember there

1884
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:31,040
Speaker 1: was a famous movie maker talking about the ice cream

1885
01:38:31,120 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 1: War in do you know that? Was that Danny Boyle?

1886
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:36,160
Speaker 1: I thing? God, I can't remember. But in any event,

1887
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:39,920
Speaker 1: where did you actually grow up in Scotland? How do you?

1888
01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:45,040
Speaker 1: How do you pronounce that? Edinburgh? Edinburgh? Okay? Ed okay?

1889
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:46,840
Speaker 1: And what did your father do for a living? My

1890
01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:50,960
Speaker 1: father was a university professor, really and what did he teach?

1891
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:56,960
Speaker 1: He taught animal breeding in sort of genetics and animal breeding,

1892
01:38:57,280 --> 01:39:00,519
Speaker 1: poultry breeding as well. He would come home for dinner.

1893
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:03,120
Speaker 1: Would he talk about that? Very rarely? I mean he

1894
01:39:03,439 --> 01:39:05,640
Speaker 1: he as we got older, he would talk about the

1895
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:10,679
Speaker 1: genetic program because they were his sort of university cloned

1896
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:12,360
Speaker 1: Dolly the Sheep. I don't know if you remember that,

1897
01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:16,360
Speaker 1: but so that was his faculty that really. Yeah, So

1898
01:39:16,680 --> 01:39:19,000
Speaker 1: he started to talk up to us about genetics and

1899
01:39:19,240 --> 01:39:21,760
Speaker 1: we were so bored. We can you know? Okay, so

1900
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:24,320
Speaker 1: if I take you out on the ranch with the animals,

1901
01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 1: you're as clueless as I am. Well, maybe not quite

1902
01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:32,880
Speaker 1: as clueless as you, Bob. We got the humor going

1903
01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:34,800
Speaker 1: at this point in time. Okay. And did your mother

1904
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:38,080
Speaker 1: work outside the house? My mother sort of eventually as

1905
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:40,640
Speaker 1: we were growing up, when we were teenagers. She's she

1906
01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:43,360
Speaker 1: became a medical reception as she looked after a bunch

1907
01:39:43,400 --> 01:39:46,680
Speaker 1: of doctors. But she really was pretty much a housewife,

1908
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 1: which is a terminology that's thankfully becoming, you know, obsolete.

1909
01:39:51,280 --> 01:39:54,519
Speaker 1: But she she was clear. She called herself a housewife, right,

1910
01:39:54,680 --> 01:39:56,639
Speaker 1: I guess you know now they say, you know she works,

1911
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:59,519
Speaker 1: but she works in the home. But okay, so where

1912
01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:01,960
Speaker 1: are you in the hierarchy of the middle child? The

1913
01:40:02,160 --> 01:40:06,320
Speaker 1: real messed up one the middle of three? And who

1914
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:08,759
Speaker 1: else is a boy or a girl? All three girls?

1915
01:40:09,080 --> 01:40:13,160
Speaker 1: All three girls. I'm a middle child too, so sorry, Okay.

1916
01:40:13,520 --> 01:40:16,519
Speaker 1: My older sister she believes you can conquer the world,

1917
01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:19,800
Speaker 1: and my younger sister is the baby could always cry

1918
01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 1: to get out of this, and I was kind of

1919
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:24,440
Speaker 1: lost in the middle. I had exactly the same experience.

1920
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:26,960
Speaker 1: It's really I was married to one who was also

1921
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:30,320
Speaker 1: a middle kid. I wonder whether that was part of

1922
01:40:30,400 --> 01:40:34,320
Speaker 1: the connection, because you're kind of overlooked. You feel you're overlooked.

1923
01:40:34,360 --> 01:40:36,680
Speaker 1: I don't think you actually are, but that's how I

1924
01:40:36,880 --> 01:40:39,160
Speaker 1: think I perceived it. And I also got hamly done

1925
01:40:39,200 --> 01:40:41,120
Speaker 1: clothes all the time. I never got new clothes when

1926
01:40:41,120 --> 01:40:43,040
Speaker 1: I was growing up. I was always my sister's clothes,

1927
01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:45,800
Speaker 1: and by the time I had worn through the set clothes,

1928
01:40:45,840 --> 01:40:47,800
Speaker 1: my little sister got brand new clothes. So I mean

1929
01:40:48,000 --> 01:40:50,600
Speaker 1: I was twisted, you know, yeah, yeah, the level of resentment.

1930
01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:52,840
Speaker 1: I didn't have that problem because my older and younger

1931
01:40:53,080 --> 01:40:55,880
Speaker 1: siblings were sisters. But I know, I know exactly what

1932
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,400
Speaker 1: you're talking about. And Okay, what kind of kid are

1933
01:40:59,479 --> 01:41:01,920
Speaker 1: you growing up? Are you a rebellious kid? Are you

1934
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:05,559
Speaker 1: kid of you know obeys orders? For the first sort

1935
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:08,840
Speaker 1: of twelve years of my life, I obeyed orders. I

1936
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:14,360
Speaker 1: was an incredibly devout student, and I, you know, had

1937
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:17,880
Speaker 1: a great faith in Jesus, and I was interested in

1938
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:20,400
Speaker 1: religion and all kinds of things. I was very sweet,

1939
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:25,000
Speaker 1: pretty uh, sort of conventional kid, and then the hormones

1940
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:27,640
Speaker 1: kicked in and I went mental. Okay, did you go

1941
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:30,040
Speaker 1: to public school? Or did you go to Catholic school. Well,

1942
01:41:30,080 --> 01:41:32,920
Speaker 1: it's a good question, because we call public public schools

1943
01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:35,599
Speaker 1: private school. We went to government funded had the government

1944
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:38,519
Speaker 1: funded schools. But you had a strict Catholic family. I

1945
01:41:38,600 --> 01:41:41,680
Speaker 1: did not. I came up in a Protestant family. My

1946
01:41:41,800 --> 01:41:44,080
Speaker 1: dad was my Sunday school teacher, which also didn't help

1947
01:41:44,120 --> 01:41:49,040
Speaker 1: my No. No, no, no, you can imagine. I can't imagine.

1948
01:41:50,400 --> 01:41:53,519
Speaker 1: That kind of messed me up good too. So yeah, okay,

1949
01:41:53,840 --> 01:41:55,960
Speaker 1: but you were a big believer. I was a huge

1950
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:59,200
Speaker 1: believer about today you believe her today. I'm a nonbeliever now.

1951
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 1: And what was the transition? How did you decide that

1952
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:05,120
Speaker 1: there wasn't a little man in this guy who was

1953
01:42:05,200 --> 01:42:08,719
Speaker 1: deciding whether you've been noaughty or nice? Well, it started

1954
01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:12,000
Speaker 1: off with just a sort of sudden observation of the

1955
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:15,000
Speaker 1: people in in our church that we went that we

1956
01:42:15,120 --> 01:42:18,280
Speaker 1: went to. I noticed that they did not adhere to

1957
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:22,840
Speaker 1: the principles that were being, you know, sermonized, And I

1958
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:27,679
Speaker 1: started to smell hypocrisy. And I then would meet people

1959
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:30,640
Speaker 1: who were nonbelievers who actually did seem to practice some

1960
01:42:31,880 --> 01:42:36,120
Speaker 1: kind spiritual practice. We have that in government today. All

1961
01:42:36,160 --> 01:42:39,479
Speaker 1: the people seemingly were anti abortion, have had an abortion

1962
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:42,559
Speaker 1: themselves or their partners had an abortion. It's just crazy.

1963
01:42:42,760 --> 01:42:45,839
Speaker 1: So in any event, you turned age twelve, the hormones

1964
01:42:45,920 --> 01:42:50,040
Speaker 1: kicking and you freak out. What does that look like? Well, I,

1965
01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:53,840
Speaker 1: having been a pretty good student, I just stopped paying

1966
01:42:53,840 --> 01:42:58,200
Speaker 1: attention in school. I stopped going to school. I started smoking,

1967
01:42:58,320 --> 01:43:02,800
Speaker 1: I started flirting with you know, seft drugs. I became

1968
01:43:02,880 --> 01:43:06,040
Speaker 1: interested in boys. I got involved in a youth theater

1969
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:10,000
Speaker 1: and a band. A little bit slower in America, it's

1970
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:12,280
Speaker 1: kind of like the Little Rascals if you know those

1971
01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:15,800
Speaker 1: Saturday morning car There's a truan officer and if you

1972
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:18,400
Speaker 1: skip school, they're going to track you down. So you're

1973
01:43:18,439 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 1: skipping school and your father's in the educational system. Was

1974
01:43:21,439 --> 01:43:23,840
Speaker 1: anybody aware of the fact you were skipping school? Well

1975
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:26,720
Speaker 1: not at first, and actually it was my dad who

1976
01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:30,080
Speaker 1: busted me in the end. Um. But no, the teachers

1977
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:33,000
Speaker 1: didn't really notice because of the way that our system

1978
01:43:33,080 --> 01:43:37,320
Speaker 1: worked at that time. UM. So I'd always appear for registrations,

1979
01:43:37,400 --> 01:43:39,639
Speaker 1: so you were there when they called the roll call,

1980
01:43:40,120 --> 01:43:41,920
Speaker 1: and then I would just go home. But my my,

1981
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:46,200
Speaker 1: my house was like jammed up against the playground of

1982
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:48,640
Speaker 1: the school, so I could just get home to my

1983
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:52,720
Speaker 1: bedroom in about five seconds. So it's very convenient for

1984
01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:55,920
Speaker 1: skipping school until you had your father find out. He

1985
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:58,200
Speaker 1: came home one day unexpectedly and find me in my

1986
01:43:58,280 --> 01:44:01,600
Speaker 1: bedroom with a bunch of pals smoking. I don't know

1987
01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:04,080
Speaker 1: why else we were up to. You went absolutely mental,

1988
01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:10,200
Speaker 1: and he called the head master and he doped me in.

1989
01:44:10,439 --> 01:44:12,280
Speaker 1: He was like, my child this year, she should be

1990
01:44:12,320 --> 01:44:14,400
Speaker 1: at school. I'm sending it in to see you right now.

1991
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:17,760
Speaker 1: And he sent me to the head master and I

1992
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:21,240
Speaker 1: got I can't remember what happened, but I got well

1993
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:25,560
Speaker 1: royally punished. I had to do like after school punishment

1994
01:44:25,640 --> 01:44:27,439
Speaker 1: and all that. Well, did it set you on a

1995
01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:30,080
Speaker 1: straight course or did you continue to diverge from the

1996
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:32,680
Speaker 1: straight and earra I continue, even at fifty one, to

1997
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:35,160
Speaker 1: diverge from the straight and now, Well, it's kind of funny.

1998
01:44:35,200 --> 01:44:37,160
Speaker 1: It's hard to diverge from the straight and narrow. We

1999
01:44:37,240 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 1: live in it. I'm older than you are, but certainly

2000
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:42,479
Speaker 1: lived through the sixties. It was the opposite of group think,

2001
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:45,719
Speaker 1: and now there's total group thinking, and if you feel otherwise,

2002
01:44:46,040 --> 01:44:48,360
Speaker 1: you're really scorned by society. You end up feeling like

2003
01:44:48,400 --> 01:44:51,439
Speaker 1: a party of one. That's my experience. You know, I'm

2004
01:44:51,479 --> 01:44:53,439
Speaker 1: really lucky, and that I don't have that experience. I

2005
01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:55,360
Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about, and I think that

2006
01:44:55,479 --> 01:44:58,439
Speaker 1: does exist, and it's becoming more and more prevalent. But

2007
01:44:58,560 --> 01:45:01,559
Speaker 1: I was really lucky and that I a very strong

2008
01:45:01,640 --> 01:45:07,200
Speaker 1: minded father who had very definitive ideas, and I would

2009
01:45:07,240 --> 01:45:10,799
Speaker 1: fight against him over and over and over again for years,

2010
01:45:10,960 --> 01:45:13,040
Speaker 1: to the point where I learned to hold my own

2011
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:16,800
Speaker 1: in an argument. If he didn't, you know, agree with me,

2012
01:45:17,040 --> 01:45:18,880
Speaker 1: that was cool. If I didn't agree with him, it

2013
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 1: was cool. He was He was really fair that way,

2014
01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:23,880
Speaker 1: and so I just learned to have to develop my

2015
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:27,680
Speaker 1: own system of ideas and beliefs. Do you think he

2016
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 1: was doing that to inculcate that behavior in yourself or

2017
01:45:31,960 --> 01:45:33,880
Speaker 1: do you think he was really rigid and you were

2018
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:37,880
Speaker 1: just a rebel? Neither of the bob. I think he

2019
01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:41,439
Speaker 1: is quite rebellious my dad. Is he still with us, Yes,

2020
01:45:41,520 --> 01:45:46,519
Speaker 1: he's still with us, and he's eighty one, and he's

2021
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:50,000
Speaker 1: very full of vigor and as a rigorous thinker, and

2022
01:45:50,560 --> 01:45:53,400
Speaker 1: I think he enjoyed being challenged by me because he

2023
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:56,200
Speaker 1: often of course, when you have young children. He would

2024
01:45:56,240 --> 01:45:59,240
Speaker 1: browbeat me easily for years and years and years, and

2025
01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:02,360
Speaker 1: then event chually as I became a little more skilled

2026
01:46:02,400 --> 01:46:05,840
Speaker 1: at arguing in my late teens. He I think he

2027
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:07,960
Speaker 1: enjoyed it was like it was a sport for him,

2028
01:46:08,000 --> 01:46:09,639
Speaker 1: and it actually is a little bit of a sport

2029
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:11,320
Speaker 1: for me now, like I can argue with anyone. I

2030
01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:13,200
Speaker 1: don't take it personally. I don't get upset when people

2031
01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:16,080
Speaker 1: don't agree with me. I find it really interesting. I

2032
01:46:16,280 --> 01:46:18,719
Speaker 1: love to argue, and no one wants to argue anymore.

2033
01:46:21,680 --> 01:46:25,200
Speaker 1: It's really when you when you give a contrary opinion,

2034
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:28,680
Speaker 1: it's like spinal tap person. Look, no, my amp goes

2035
01:46:28,760 --> 01:46:31,080
Speaker 1: to eleven. I mean, I don't want to do it

2036
01:46:31,479 --> 01:46:36,880
Speaker 1: for my own personal aggrandization, whatever aggrandization, whatever the word

2037
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:39,559
Speaker 1: might be. It's it's fun to wrestle and tease out

2038
01:46:39,600 --> 01:46:42,960
Speaker 1: the issues and makes me think afterward. But today everyone

2039
01:46:43,040 --> 01:46:45,719
Speaker 1: thinks they have the answer. They can't see two different

2040
01:46:45,760 --> 01:46:48,000
Speaker 1: sides of the coin, and they're very you. You look

2041
01:46:48,040 --> 01:46:49,560
Speaker 1: like the curmudgeon when you go out there and you

2042
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:52,439
Speaker 1: disagree with people. Well, I think there's a couple of

2043
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:55,960
Speaker 1: factors at play. I think some people feel that they

2044
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:59,720
Speaker 1: are not they don't have conviction necessarily and what they believe. Like, no,

2045
01:47:00,240 --> 01:47:02,879
Speaker 1: I am wrong all the time, but I do have conviction.

2046
01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:06,960
Speaker 1: I believe really strongly and what I believe. And um,

2047
01:47:07,760 --> 01:47:09,920
Speaker 1: I think some people get shaken when you disagree with

2048
01:47:10,040 --> 01:47:14,400
Speaker 1: them and or they feel like they're losing an argument

2049
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:17,240
Speaker 1: if you even challenge the argument. And they've got this

2050
01:47:17,560 --> 01:47:20,639
Speaker 1: some weird idea about how they must win. They must win.

2051
01:47:20,760 --> 01:47:23,240
Speaker 1: Society's put all this pressure and must be winners. You

2052
01:47:23,320 --> 01:47:25,599
Speaker 1: can't be a loser. I don't mind being a loser.

2053
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:28,960
Speaker 1: I mean that's really well described. But will you change

2054
01:47:29,000 --> 01:47:31,600
Speaker 1: your opinion all the time? It makes me crazy if

2055
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:33,880
Speaker 1: you change your opinion because I'm writing my opinions down

2056
01:47:34,240 --> 01:47:37,200
Speaker 1: and I say, hey, life evolved. It's like only in Washington,

2057
01:47:37,280 --> 01:47:40,320
Speaker 1: d C. You can't change your opinion. So let's go back.

2058
01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:43,920
Speaker 1: Your two sisters. Where are they today? My little sister,

2059
01:47:44,400 --> 01:47:46,560
Speaker 1: it was how much younger. It's two years younger than me.

2060
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:49,680
Speaker 1: She's down in London doing what she works for a

2061
01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:56,640
Speaker 1: photographic agent, so they support photographers in the fashion industry primarily. Um,

2062
01:47:56,840 --> 01:47:59,479
Speaker 1: and my big sister is two years older than me.

2063
01:47:59,560 --> 01:48:03,680
Speaker 1: It's exact, and like my favor we've got a common here, man,

2064
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:08,320
Speaker 1: I feel your pain. Brother. But my big sister, she

2065
01:48:08,439 --> 01:48:12,320
Speaker 1: works in She was an intensive care nurse practically our

2066
01:48:12,360 --> 01:48:15,519
Speaker 1: whole career, and now has has sort of semi moved

2067
01:48:15,600 --> 01:48:19,880
Speaker 1: into health education. She teaches nurses. Now, are they married

2068
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:23,640
Speaker 1: or in relationships? My oldest sister is in a relationship.

2069
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:26,200
Speaker 1: My youngest sister is married with two kids. Okay, but

2070
01:48:26,320 --> 01:48:29,320
Speaker 1: you've never been married, right? I am married? You are married.

2071
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:31,719
Speaker 1: I guess I was unaware. How long have you been married?

2072
01:48:32,040 --> 01:48:34,560
Speaker 1: Eight years? Eight years? And is this your only marriage? No,

2073
01:48:34,680 --> 01:48:37,960
Speaker 1: this is my second marriage. Okay, we'll save this for later. Okay,

2074
01:48:38,120 --> 01:48:43,639
Speaker 1: so you're rebelling. Do you finish school? Not exactly. That's

2075
01:48:43,720 --> 01:48:45,519
Speaker 1: kind of a black and white you know, yes or

2076
01:48:45,560 --> 01:48:48,600
Speaker 1: no question. Yeah, I didn't get past high school. I

2077
01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:52,560
Speaker 1: sort of flunked out in my last I should have

2078
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:54,280
Speaker 1: stayed on for another year and I didn't have flunked

2079
01:48:54,320 --> 01:48:57,560
Speaker 1: out and I got really bad examination results, and my

2080
01:48:57,640 --> 01:48:59,840
Speaker 1: parents were really disappointed in me, and there was a

2081
01:49:00,200 --> 01:49:04,360
Speaker 1: silence over the dinner table at home. Okay, well, here

2082
01:49:04,479 --> 01:49:07,519
Speaker 1: the crisis would be, if you drop out of high school,

2083
01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:09,760
Speaker 1: you have to go to work. That is correct, My

2084
01:49:09,880 --> 01:49:12,160
Speaker 1: dad said that to me, said, okay, you're you know,

2085
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:14,519
Speaker 1: you've crapped out of high school. You need to go

2086
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:17,280
Speaker 1: get yourself a job. And did you did? And what

2087
01:49:17,439 --> 01:49:22,240
Speaker 1: was that job? I worked in a female fashion shop,

2088
01:49:22,479 --> 01:49:25,320
Speaker 1: a little like Forever twenty one. It was called miss Selfridge.

2089
01:49:26,200 --> 01:49:31,160
Speaker 1: And how long did that last? Five years? Five years?

2090
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:35,479
Speaker 1: And any upward any any upward mobility or you're just

2091
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:38,280
Speaker 1: the sales clerk in the shop for five years. I

2092
01:49:38,320 --> 01:49:40,799
Speaker 1: don't say this for comic relief. I was actually demoted.

2093
01:49:42,360 --> 01:49:46,320
Speaker 1: I started off. I started off as a sales clerk

2094
01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:49,560
Speaker 1: what we call the shop assistant, and then I was

2095
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:52,360
Speaker 1: demoted to the stock room because I was unpleasant, quote unquote,

2096
01:49:52,360 --> 01:49:56,960
Speaker 1: I was unpleasant to the customers. I love that. I

2097
01:49:57,120 --> 01:50:00,519
Speaker 1: love that. So you're unpleasant. But they didn't are they

2098
01:50:00,560 --> 01:50:04,760
Speaker 1: didn't fire me. Okay. And at the time, okay, you're

2099
01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:08,599
Speaker 1: smoking dope, drinking what are you doing? I was doing

2100
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:11,320
Speaker 1: a lot of speed. That was my drug of choice,

2101
01:50:11,439 --> 01:50:19,120
Speaker 1: and I like the feeling of being fast. Okay and okay,

2102
01:50:19,200 --> 01:50:21,960
Speaker 1: going back. Was their music in your house growing up? Yeah,

2103
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:23,360
Speaker 1: there was a lot of music in my house. My

2104
01:50:23,439 --> 01:50:27,719
Speaker 1: mom was a sort of semi amateur singer. Um semi professional.

2105
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:30,800
Speaker 1: Should I see? She sang with us a swing band

2106
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:33,200
Speaker 1: called the Squadron Ears before I was born, and then

2107
01:50:33,320 --> 01:50:36,960
Speaker 1: she used to sing for like weddings and concert parties

2108
01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:39,439
Speaker 1: at the church. And hey, you're playing footsie with me, Bob,

2109
01:50:40,160 --> 01:50:43,400
Speaker 1: you have a very long I can't believe my legs

2110
01:50:43,439 --> 01:50:45,599
Speaker 1: reach that far. The first time this has ever happened

2111
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:49,679
Speaker 1: here on the podcast. But um, I noticed I touched before.

2112
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:51,960
Speaker 1: I didn't even notice that time. But when she was

2113
01:50:52,040 --> 01:50:55,519
Speaker 1: professional before you were born, how serious was that? Not

2114
01:50:55,640 --> 01:50:58,439
Speaker 1: particularly serious? I mean, my mom got bless her. She

2115
01:50:58,479 --> 01:51:00,519
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of confidence in herself, so nothing

2116
01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:03,720
Speaker 1: she did she considered very serious. But she was a

2117
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:06,280
Speaker 1: good singer, and she loved music, and she introduced me

2118
01:51:06,400 --> 01:51:09,200
Speaker 1: to music, and my love of music comes from her. Okay,

2119
01:51:09,240 --> 01:51:11,920
Speaker 1: so would she play records in the house? What kind

2120
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:15,679
Speaker 1: of records? She introduced me to a lot of like Elephants, Gerald,

2121
01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:19,400
Speaker 1: Nina Simon st von Um. She loved Barbara Streisan, she

2122
01:51:19,520 --> 01:51:24,160
Speaker 1: loved Barry Manilo, and she loved show tunes. The show

2123
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:26,120
Speaker 1: Too was a similar thing. Growing up. My mother played

2124
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:30,160
Speaker 1: them all the time. But and she is deceased, My

2125
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:33,120
Speaker 1: my mom too, right now, my mother is alive. My

2126
01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:35,800
Speaker 1: father's dead, been dead for twenty five years. My mother's

2127
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:37,880
Speaker 1: ninety one. But your mother, based on what you said earlier,

2128
01:51:38,120 --> 01:51:39,800
Speaker 1: your mother is no longer with, no longer with How

2129
01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:44,080
Speaker 1: long ago did she pass? About nine years ago? Okay?

2130
01:51:44,160 --> 01:51:47,280
Speaker 1: Is your father ever got involved in another relationship? Yes,

2131
01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:52,560
Speaker 1: he has not. Is he a serial data or is

2132
01:51:52,600 --> 01:51:55,639
Speaker 1: that one specific woman. There's been a couple of women

2133
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:59,000
Speaker 1: who's been interested in and is pursued with great passion

2134
01:51:59,120 --> 01:52:01,880
Speaker 1: and vigor and has gotten his own way a couple

2135
01:52:01,920 --> 01:52:04,000
Speaker 1: of times. And so what do you What does it

2136
01:52:04,200 --> 01:52:06,200
Speaker 1: feel like being his daughter? Well, it was funny. I

2137
01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:08,360
Speaker 1: was cool with it because I knew my dad loved

2138
01:52:08,360 --> 01:52:10,880
Speaker 1: my mom and I knew that, you know, there was

2139
01:52:10,920 --> 01:52:12,639
Speaker 1: nothing going to bring my mom back, So I wanted

2140
01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:14,800
Speaker 1: my dad to have happiness, so it didn't bother me.

2141
01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:18,080
Speaker 1: It creeped me out a wee bit, you know, thinking

2142
01:52:18,080 --> 01:52:20,400
Speaker 1: about my dad having an erection was just too much there.

2143
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:23,200
Speaker 1: But I was cool with him having fun in his life.

2144
01:52:23,240 --> 01:52:26,519
Speaker 1: I wanted that for him. But my younger sister had

2145
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:29,320
Speaker 1: she wrestled with it the hardest. She she she found

2146
01:52:29,360 --> 01:52:32,040
Speaker 1: it difficult to accept. Well, how long after the passing

2147
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:34,519
Speaker 1: of your mother. Did he get started very quickly? And

2148
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:36,960
Speaker 1: was your mother sick or was it a sudden death? Yeah,

2149
01:52:36,960 --> 01:52:39,040
Speaker 1: my mom was sick. She had a very rare form

2150
01:52:39,080 --> 01:52:42,680
Speaker 1: of dementia, which is called Picks disease um and it

2151
01:52:42,760 --> 01:52:44,400
Speaker 1: was very aggressive and sort of took her out the

2152
01:52:44,439 --> 01:52:47,800
Speaker 1: game in about eighteen months. My mother's you know, is

2153
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:52,080
Speaker 1: on is on that excursion. So I speak speak with her,

2154
01:52:52,120 --> 01:52:53,920
Speaker 1: and she'll go on and on. But whatever I tell

2155
01:52:53,960 --> 01:52:56,840
Speaker 1: her today, the next day, it'd be like we didn't

2156
01:52:56,880 --> 01:52:59,160
Speaker 1: even discuss. You See, my mom's disease wasn't like that.

2157
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:01,600
Speaker 1: It was a a different kind of it was. She

2158
01:53:02,400 --> 01:53:05,599
Speaker 1: sort of became just physically difficult to operate in the world.

2159
01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:07,600
Speaker 1: She always knew who I was. She never didn't know

2160
01:53:08,040 --> 01:53:10,440
Speaker 1: we were. No. Like I said, it was very aggressive,

2161
01:53:10,880 --> 01:53:13,200
Speaker 1: an unusual form of Picks disease, and that the doctor

2162
01:53:13,280 --> 01:53:17,200
Speaker 1: in our hometown nobody had ever had an incident of

2163
01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:19,560
Speaker 1: this particular type of disease. So she was young. She

2164
01:53:19,680 --> 01:53:22,160
Speaker 1: was sixty nine when she was diagnosed, very young. And

2165
01:53:22,320 --> 01:53:26,360
Speaker 1: so how long did she go undiagnosed? Well, here's the

2166
01:53:26,400 --> 01:53:28,400
Speaker 1: other issue in our families. I knew there was something

2167
01:53:28,439 --> 01:53:30,960
Speaker 1: wrong with my mom. My family told me I was crazy. Well,

2168
01:53:31,000 --> 01:53:32,839
Speaker 1: I have the same thing with my father got canceled.

2169
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:34,960
Speaker 1: We were having to be in Mammoth Lakes, which is

2170
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:37,479
Speaker 1: a ski area about four hours from Los Angeles, and

2171
01:53:37,560 --> 01:53:39,519
Speaker 1: I went out with my father to pick up a pizza,

2172
01:53:40,080 --> 01:53:42,200
Speaker 1: and my father's for the whole half hour waiting for

2173
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:44,720
Speaker 1: the pizza, just had his head in his hand, and

2174
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:46,280
Speaker 1: he was coming And I came back and I told

2175
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:48,519
Speaker 1: my mother, oh, you know something wrong with our flashes. Oh,

2176
01:53:48,640 --> 01:53:51,000
Speaker 1: he just had a physical. He's fine, he's fine. And

2177
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:54,000
Speaker 1: a week later they found out the cancer. I'm so sorry.

2178
01:53:54,240 --> 01:53:55,679
Speaker 1: Well it was a long time ago. At this point,

2179
01:53:55,800 --> 01:53:59,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't it's always painful to lose your loved ones. Well,

2180
01:53:59,479 --> 01:54:03,040
Speaker 1: my father I had at seventy and when he died,

2181
01:54:03,560 --> 01:54:05,880
Speaker 1: I was not quite forty, and I thought, oh, that's

2182
01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:08,599
Speaker 1: a pretty good run. But now I say, wow, that's

2183
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:12,960
Speaker 1: really young. Really, so there's music in the household. At

2184
01:54:13,040 --> 01:54:15,439
Speaker 1: what point do you start to sing or play yourself.

2185
01:54:16,120 --> 01:54:19,320
Speaker 1: I was playing really young because my mom and dad

2186
01:54:19,400 --> 01:54:22,200
Speaker 1: got me into piano lessons on singing in an ac choir.

2187
01:54:22,360 --> 01:54:24,559
Speaker 1: So that was around about seven years old. Did you practice,

2188
01:54:25,000 --> 01:54:27,439
Speaker 1: did I? No? No, no, I don't think the piano

2189
01:54:27,560 --> 01:54:30,599
Speaker 1: lessons too, But the practicing was the weakling. I found

2190
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:33,160
Speaker 1: it very hard to practice anything, and that has continued

2191
01:54:33,160 --> 01:54:36,520
Speaker 1: throughout my entire life. I'm very lax about rehearsing and

2192
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:40,120
Speaker 1: practicing and and actually being a good student in that regard.

2193
01:54:40,800 --> 01:54:43,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, I was singing and playing by about seven,

2194
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:46,040
Speaker 1: and that just continued through my life. My school picked

2195
01:54:46,080 --> 01:54:48,760
Speaker 1: me out to like learn the violin, the clarinet, playing

2196
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:52,280
Speaker 1: the school orchestra. Can you read music even at this

2197
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:54,280
Speaker 1: late day, you haven't forgotten it? Now, you don't forget

2198
01:54:54,360 --> 01:54:57,400
Speaker 1: that people claim to forgotten that, Billy Joel whatever. But

2199
01:54:57,680 --> 01:55:00,520
Speaker 1: as someone who could read music basically, then occasion I'll

2200
01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:02,840
Speaker 1: sit down at the piano and then I look at

2201
01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:05,320
Speaker 1: the bass cliff and I go, there's no way. See,

2202
01:55:05,320 --> 01:55:06,920
Speaker 1: it's funny you should say that because it's always the

2203
01:55:06,920 --> 01:55:09,480
Speaker 1: bass cliff cliff that is the hardest one to remember.

2204
01:55:09,520 --> 01:55:10,920
Speaker 1: But if you just play for a wee bit, it

2205
01:55:11,000 --> 01:55:15,040
Speaker 1: comes back. So you're playing it at this point, do

2206
01:55:15,120 --> 01:55:17,560
Speaker 1: you ever have an light bulb go off and say

2207
01:55:17,640 --> 01:55:19,840
Speaker 1: this is what I'd like to do from my life? Never?

2208
01:55:20,520 --> 01:55:24,760
Speaker 1: So what changes you know? This? This is a bit

2209
01:55:24,800 --> 01:55:26,760
Speaker 1: of a long on boding story I've told a million times,

2210
01:55:26,840 --> 01:55:30,600
Speaker 1: but nothing ever changed, Nothing ever changed. No, I stumbled

2211
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:34,080
Speaker 1: from pillar to post literally as my entire That is

2212
01:55:34,120 --> 01:55:37,320
Speaker 1: certainly a Scottish expression. No one in America is going

2213
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:39,200
Speaker 1: to say pillar to post. Okay, well, but you get

2214
01:55:39,240 --> 01:55:41,240
Speaker 1: the express, the idea. I know what you said, but

2215
01:55:41,440 --> 01:55:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, I just haven't heard the expression. But nothing

2216
01:55:45,160 --> 01:55:47,560
Speaker 1: in my life has ever been planned. I have my

2217
01:55:47,880 --> 01:55:51,600
Speaker 1: My entire career has been made up of stumbling from

2218
01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:54,520
Speaker 1: one place to the next and no plan, no real

2219
01:55:54,800 --> 01:55:57,400
Speaker 1: solid ambition. Although my dad claims that that's not true.

2220
01:55:57,600 --> 01:56:00,960
Speaker 1: But I don't remember having any major ambition to do

2221
01:56:01,120 --> 01:56:03,640
Speaker 1: much except be a ballerina. That's what I really burned

2222
01:56:03,680 --> 01:56:05,440
Speaker 1: to do. Then I couldn't do that because I got

2223
01:56:05,480 --> 01:56:07,440
Speaker 1: too tall and I hurt my ankle. So then I

2224
01:56:07,480 --> 01:56:09,440
Speaker 1: wanted to be an actress. This is it? What age?

2225
01:56:09,480 --> 01:56:13,840
Speaker 1: What age? Do you hurt your ankle? I was. It's

2226
01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:17,360
Speaker 1: a good question. Eleven. Then you want to be an actor?

2227
01:56:17,960 --> 01:56:19,960
Speaker 1: Do you act on that? Do you actually act? In

2228
01:56:20,000 --> 01:56:23,360
Speaker 1: school places? I had a drama teacher that took great

2229
01:56:23,400 --> 01:56:25,640
Speaker 1: interest in me and got me out into Edinburgh. You

2230
01:56:25,720 --> 01:56:28,360
Speaker 1: theater outside of the school as well. She encouraged me

2231
01:56:28,440 --> 01:56:31,680
Speaker 1: to like audition for drama school, and so and so forth.

2232
01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:34,800
Speaker 1: I didn't get into drama school. And that's summer that

2233
01:56:34,840 --> 01:56:37,200
Speaker 1: I didn't get into drama school. I got approached by

2234
01:56:37,840 --> 01:56:39,920
Speaker 1: this guy that I had met at Edinburgh Theater who

2235
01:56:39,960 --> 01:56:43,840
Speaker 1: needed a keyboard player in his band. And because you know,

2236
01:56:44,360 --> 01:56:47,040
Speaker 1: I've been living in l a long enough, doesn't just happen.

2237
01:56:47,760 --> 01:56:51,440
Speaker 1: So how was he aware that you played the keyboard? Well,

2238
01:56:51,440 --> 01:56:53,360
Speaker 1: I think he maybe asked me. He was very interested

2239
01:56:53,400 --> 01:56:57,520
Speaker 1: in me sexually. Okay, that's straightforward. He was more interested

2240
01:56:57,560 --> 01:57:00,839
Speaker 1: in me, I think, sexually than he was by musical skills.

2241
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:03,040
Speaker 1: But he knew I played pianos so and he knew

2242
01:57:03,280 --> 01:57:06,280
Speaker 1: he could lure me into his band to play keyboards.

2243
01:57:06,680 --> 01:57:08,800
Speaker 1: But you have to say yes. I didn't have to

2244
01:57:08,840 --> 01:57:11,680
Speaker 1: see yes. You did say yes. I did. So what

2245
01:57:11,920 --> 01:57:14,640
Speaker 1: was your inspiration for saying yes? Because I've just been

2246
01:57:14,680 --> 01:57:18,880
Speaker 1: rejected from drama college, so I had nothing else to do,

2247
01:57:19,040 --> 01:57:21,760
Speaker 1: and so for want of some entertainment in my life,

2248
01:57:21,800 --> 01:57:23,840
Speaker 1: I joined the band. And this was at what age

2249
01:57:24,760 --> 01:57:28,040
Speaker 1: fifteen or sixteen? Okay, so you go and you have

2250
01:57:28,240 --> 01:57:31,080
Speaker 1: this band, what kind of music you play? Well? You

2251
01:57:31,120 --> 01:57:35,560
Speaker 1: would call it alternative pop rock. Okay, we're the originals

2252
01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:38,680
Speaker 1: were playing? Was on the hip parade? They were originals.

2253
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:41,440
Speaker 1: I can't ask me if they were on the hip three.

2254
01:57:41,520 --> 01:57:43,520
Speaker 1: That is the cutest thing I've ever been asked. I

2255
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:47,680
Speaker 1: think so they were originals. And in the United States,

2256
01:57:47,720 --> 01:57:50,440
Speaker 1: which is my frame of reference, it's very hard to

2257
01:57:50,520 --> 01:57:55,080
Speaker 1: get work being an upstart band playing originals. So did

2258
01:57:55,120 --> 01:57:57,200
Speaker 1: you get gigs with this band? We did get gigs.

2259
01:57:57,240 --> 01:57:59,400
Speaker 1: You know. We were lucky that we marriage from Scotland,

2260
01:57:59,440 --> 01:58:02,720
Speaker 1: which had all music scene, and so we'd be pretty fast.

2261
01:58:02,800 --> 01:58:05,560
Speaker 1: Became quite large fish in a very small poem. Well

2262
01:58:05,640 --> 01:58:07,600
Speaker 1: that would you know, seem to say that you were good?

2263
01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:11,120
Speaker 1: We were good? So why were you good? We were

2264
01:58:11,520 --> 01:58:14,720
Speaker 1: really unique, really original, Like we were like no other

2265
01:58:14,840 --> 01:58:17,000
Speaker 1: band I have ever seen in my life. I mean,

2266
01:58:17,080 --> 01:58:21,440
Speaker 1: we were a right bunch of Motley crew. Um. We

2267
01:58:21,560 --> 01:58:27,800
Speaker 1: were quite rebellious and we we're just very committed to

2268
01:58:28,080 --> 01:58:31,840
Speaker 1: putting on good shoes. So I have to ask, did

2269
01:58:31,880 --> 01:58:34,760
Speaker 1: you ear a romantic partnership with that guy who asked you? Yes?

2270
01:58:34,840 --> 01:58:37,360
Speaker 1: I did. Okay. How long did that last? I don't know,

2271
01:58:37,440 --> 01:58:40,160
Speaker 1: about six months, I think. Okay, when that ended did

2272
01:58:40,200 --> 01:58:45,280
Speaker 1: the band break up? The band? The band survived, So

2273
01:58:45,400 --> 01:58:47,440
Speaker 1: how long did the band go on? For? Ten years?

2274
01:58:48,000 --> 01:58:53,320
Speaker 1: And the name of that band was Goodbye, Mr Mackenzie. Okay,

2275
01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:56,560
Speaker 1: Well return to this conversation with Trulie Manson of Garbage

2276
01:58:56,760 --> 01:59:02,400
Speaker 1: in a moment. You're listening to the Bomb Left Sets podcast,

2277
01:59:02,480 --> 01:59:06,280
Speaker 1: recorded at the tune In Studios in Venice, California. Each week,

2278
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:08,520
Speaker 1: I interview a new guest and dive into their lives

2279
01:59:08,560 --> 01:59:11,960
Speaker 1: and careers. If you enjoy listening to the podcast, subscribe,

2280
01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:14,920
Speaker 1: rate and review the show. Please also check out some

2281
01:59:14,960 --> 01:59:17,839
Speaker 1: of the earlier episodes, like my conversation with Nancy Wilson

2282
01:59:18,080 --> 01:59:21,640
Speaker 1: of the band Heart and famous skateboarder Tony Hawk. You

2283
01:59:21,720 --> 01:59:24,040
Speaker 1: can hear them all on tune in the Apple podcast

2284
01:59:24,200 --> 01:59:27,160
Speaker 1: or your podcast player of choice. And now more with

2285
01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:32,240
Speaker 1: Shirley Manson. So when you're in Goodbye, Mr Mackenzie, are

2286
01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:34,320
Speaker 1: you for five years you still working in the shop?

2287
01:59:34,440 --> 01:59:37,760
Speaker 1: You are correct? Okay? At what point when you stop

2288
01:59:37,880 --> 01:59:40,280
Speaker 1: working in the shop, are you living off the money

2289
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:43,800
Speaker 1: from the band or are you have to get another

2290
01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:46,920
Speaker 1: day job. I'm living off my day job. Okay, but

2291
01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:50,800
Speaker 1: after they after working in the shop, excuse me, then

2292
01:59:51,480 --> 01:59:55,600
Speaker 1: I barely existed off money from the band, barely. Okay,

2293
01:59:55,800 --> 01:59:57,960
Speaker 1: still living at your parents? Hum, still living at my parents.

2294
01:59:58,120 --> 02:00:00,400
Speaker 1: You know, in America things have changed. But in my era,

2295
02:00:00,840 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 1: once you got out of high school, parents said you

2296
02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:03,960
Speaker 1: gotta get out of the house, and of course you

2297
02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:06,640
Speaker 1: could afford to live somewhere on a minimum wage. Now

2298
02:00:06,680 --> 02:00:08,560
Speaker 1: it's just the opposite. I can't afford to living where

2299
02:00:08,560 --> 02:00:10,520
Speaker 1: I'm minimum wage, and people want their kids, and people

2300
02:00:10,600 --> 02:00:12,840
Speaker 1: do move back. So what did your parents think, You're

2301
02:00:12,840 --> 02:00:15,080
Speaker 1: getting older and older still living in their house. My

2302
02:00:15,240 --> 02:00:19,440
Speaker 1: mom wanted me so there was It was never even discussed. Really,

2303
02:00:19,520 --> 02:00:22,600
Speaker 1: so she did made all your meals, clean your clothes.

2304
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:24,360
Speaker 1: No at that point, I mean I was an adult

2305
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:26,920
Speaker 1: by that point, but no, she she wanted her children

2306
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:29,120
Speaker 1: amongst her for as long as she could possibly have them,

2307
02:00:29,120 --> 02:00:32,000
Speaker 1: and my dad didn't dare question that. Okay, so you're

2308
02:00:32,040 --> 02:00:36,320
Speaker 1: in the band for ten years. That's a long period

2309
02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:37,960
Speaker 1: of time and it takes a long time to make it.

2310
02:00:38,400 --> 02:00:41,320
Speaker 1: But at that time, do you have a fantasy of

2311
02:00:41,520 --> 02:00:44,720
Speaker 1: this being a gig in stardom or you just doing it.

2312
02:00:45,040 --> 02:00:47,120
Speaker 1: I'm doing it because I really loved it. I mean

2313
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:50,320
Speaker 1: in retrospect. I really did love it, and I wasn't

2314
02:00:50,360 --> 02:00:53,680
Speaker 1: looking to be rich. I knew it sort of deep down,

2315
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:55,160
Speaker 1: and I was like, we're never going to be rich,

2316
02:00:55,280 --> 02:00:58,240
Speaker 1: We're never going to be hugely successful. But I really

2317
02:00:58,360 --> 02:01:00,720
Speaker 1: love doing what I get to do. And we traveled

2318
02:01:00,760 --> 02:01:01,960
Speaker 1: a lot, so it was the first time I got

2319
02:01:02,040 --> 02:01:05,000
Speaker 1: to go to mainland Europe, go to France, go to Germany,

2320
02:01:05,120 --> 02:01:07,040
Speaker 1: go to Holland. I mean, I went all over the

2321
02:01:07,120 --> 02:01:09,720
Speaker 1: place with this band. So that was exciting to me.

2322
02:01:09,800 --> 02:01:13,800
Speaker 1: And it was enough that of course begs the question

2323
02:01:13,840 --> 02:01:17,400
Speaker 1: which you maybe get into later. You're you're touring at

2324
02:01:17,440 --> 02:01:20,360
Speaker 1: a relatively low level, and what's it like being a

2325
02:01:20,440 --> 02:01:24,320
Speaker 1: woman on the road. You know. I didn't really think

2326
02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:26,640
Speaker 1: about it too much because in my very first band

2327
02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:30,280
Speaker 1: it was very eglitarian, and the Scots in general are

2328
02:01:30,400 --> 02:01:33,280
Speaker 1: pretty like, even in a funny way, in a different

2329
02:01:33,360 --> 02:01:36,800
Speaker 1: way that men and women are much more sort of

2330
02:01:36,960 --> 02:01:40,440
Speaker 1: equal in Scottish society in some ways, and I'm not

2331
02:01:40,640 --> 02:01:42,600
Speaker 1: entirely sure why, and this is the first time that's

2332
02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:44,360
Speaker 1: ever come out of my mouth. I'm just sort of speaking.

2333
02:01:45,520 --> 02:01:49,360
Speaker 1: But it never was an issue. Sexism was never in

2334
02:01:49,480 --> 02:01:52,280
Speaker 1: my mind an issue. However, looking back on it too,

2335
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:54,280
Speaker 1: I wasn't one of the writers in the band. It

2336
02:01:54,400 --> 02:01:56,960
Speaker 1: was two male members who kept all the writing to

2337
02:01:57,040 --> 02:02:00,560
Speaker 1: themselves and never invited anybody else into the right dynamics.

2338
02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:03,560
Speaker 1: So they were the pirate seat. And I just didn't

2339
02:02:03,680 --> 02:02:05,920
Speaker 1: care about money back then, and I didn't care about

2340
02:02:06,240 --> 02:02:09,080
Speaker 1: power back then, or I didn't even speak in those terms.

2341
02:02:09,160 --> 02:02:12,360
Speaker 1: I just was having fun and that was enough really,

2342
02:02:12,480 --> 02:02:15,440
Speaker 1: So there were no ultimate goals down the road. None.

2343
02:02:16,760 --> 02:02:20,680
Speaker 1: It's kind of funny there. It's a fascinating thing because

2344
02:02:20,680 --> 02:02:23,120
Speaker 1: there's a book called You Just Don't Understand, and it

2345
02:02:23,160 --> 02:02:26,120
Speaker 1: sounds like a self help book written by this PhD.

2346
02:02:26,280 --> 02:02:30,080
Speaker 1: Deborah Tannin, who studies language, and she says, men are

2347
02:02:30,120 --> 02:02:32,880
Speaker 1: all about the pecking order, okay, and I'm trying to

2348
02:02:33,000 --> 02:02:35,400
Speaker 1: rise to the top where women are about the community.

2349
02:02:35,480 --> 02:02:37,640
Speaker 1: Like if a guy loses his job, he loses his

2350
02:02:37,760 --> 02:02:40,320
Speaker 1: identity where she would say a woman. And of course

2351
02:02:40,320 --> 02:02:42,440
Speaker 1: there're exceptions to all this. Well, this is where I

2352
02:02:42,480 --> 02:02:44,440
Speaker 1: am now, this is where I'll be tomorrow, and I'm

2353
02:02:44,560 --> 02:02:46,880
Speaker 1: just enjoying what I'm doing now. Yeah, I mean again,

2354
02:02:46,920 --> 02:02:50,360
Speaker 1: like you say, there's there's they're sweeping generalizations right in

2355
02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:53,720
Speaker 1: this exceptions to all the rules, but in this case, yeah,

2356
02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:56,960
Speaker 1: I think I had been taught from a very early

2357
02:02:57,000 --> 02:03:01,880
Speaker 1: age basically just to be in the clan system, and

2358
02:03:02,000 --> 02:03:05,000
Speaker 1: wherever your seat was in that system was your seat.

2359
02:03:05,840 --> 02:03:08,520
Speaker 1: I just accepted my seat. Now that's changed as I've

2360
02:03:08,520 --> 02:03:11,000
Speaker 1: gotten older, I started to fight for my own seat

2361
02:03:11,400 --> 02:03:13,280
Speaker 1: and the seat that I want. But back then I

2362
02:03:13,480 --> 02:03:17,760
Speaker 1: was very sort of submissive, I guess. So the band

2363
02:03:17,800 --> 02:03:22,560
Speaker 1: goes on for ten years, what to what degree is

2364
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:26,520
Speaker 1: it successful by worldwide standards? Well, we got signed by

2365
02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:28,600
Speaker 1: a large label. We got signed by My Records and

2366
02:03:28,680 --> 02:03:32,200
Speaker 1: Capital Records, and we started bounced between those two labels,

2367
02:03:32,400 --> 02:03:34,480
Speaker 1: and we've got a big advance, but that all went

2368
02:03:34,520 --> 02:03:36,320
Speaker 1: to the writing partners. I didn't see any of that.

2369
02:03:37,040 --> 02:03:38,880
Speaker 1: But we did get a big advance, and there was

2370
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:42,640
Speaker 1: a great buzz on the band, and we charted very briefly, um,

2371
02:03:43,160 --> 02:03:45,960
Speaker 1: which was enough to sustain us to keep trying and

2372
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:49,120
Speaker 1: trying and trying for years. How many records did you

2373
02:03:49,200 --> 02:03:52,800
Speaker 1: make in that under that moniker? Well, I think I

2374
02:03:52,960 --> 02:03:56,560
Speaker 1: did four, but after you left they did more. They

2375
02:03:56,600 --> 02:03:59,640
Speaker 1: did another two. I think. Okay, so you did those

2376
02:03:59,720 --> 02:04:03,240
Speaker 1: four and then you made a solo record under not

2377
02:04:03,440 --> 02:04:06,600
Speaker 1: your own name. Correct, Although the so so called solo

2378
02:04:06,680 --> 02:04:10,200
Speaker 1: record was really just a recalibration of Goodbye Mr. Mackenzie,

2379
02:04:10,200 --> 02:04:12,040
Speaker 1: which was my first band. I E, the lead singer

2380
02:04:12,040 --> 02:04:15,040
Speaker 1: of Goodbye Ms. Mackenzie, stepped back and I took over

2381
02:04:15,120 --> 02:04:18,320
Speaker 1: lead vocals because we had gone to Berlin to make

2382
02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:21,640
Speaker 1: a record Berlin. That's funny. I know what you're talking about,

2383
02:04:21,640 --> 02:04:23,760
Speaker 1: but my brain had a percolade Verson sorry, excuse me,

2384
02:04:24,600 --> 02:04:28,360
Speaker 1: why Berlin this? I don't know what year this was in?

2385
02:04:28,680 --> 02:04:30,760
Speaker 1: What is it with the UK? I mean, you know,

2386
02:04:31,000 --> 02:04:35,720
Speaker 1: Actung Baby? You two went to uh Berlin, went to Berlin?

2387
02:04:36,440 --> 02:04:39,680
Speaker 1: Why Berlin? Well, David Boye went to Berlin, and therefore

2388
02:04:40,440 --> 02:04:43,800
Speaker 1: everybody else wanted to go there, And interestingly enough, Acting

2389
02:04:43,880 --> 02:04:46,600
Speaker 1: Baby was being recorded enhance the studios at the same

2390
02:04:46,640 --> 02:04:48,880
Speaker 1: time that we were there, and so we were all

2391
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:50,880
Speaker 1: there when the wall came down, and it was we

2392
02:04:50,960 --> 02:04:53,240
Speaker 1: were literally there when the wall We were literally was

2393
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 1: that like crazy? Literally somebody just called us something went

2394
02:04:56,480 --> 02:04:58,320
Speaker 1: where are you right now? We're like, we're in the studio.

2395
02:04:58,520 --> 02:04:59,840
Speaker 1: It's like you need to get to the wall there

2396
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:02,760
Speaker 1: going it down right now? There was that quick. I

2397
02:05:02,800 --> 02:05:04,680
Speaker 1: have a piece of the wall in my home in Scotland,

2398
02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:08,240
Speaker 1: and so was there any once you went out to

2399
02:05:08,280 --> 02:05:11,160
Speaker 1: the wall. Was there any fear? No? Was it just excitement.

2400
02:05:11,360 --> 02:05:14,280
Speaker 1: Everybody was really excited and it was crazy. Well, when

2401
02:05:14,320 --> 02:05:17,040
Speaker 1: I went to Berlin, as you say, and you're there

2402
02:05:17,080 --> 02:05:19,600
Speaker 1: in the wall that still remains. On one side is

2403
02:05:19,640 --> 02:05:22,640
Speaker 1: the bunker. On the west side is where you know,

2404
02:05:22,840 --> 02:05:25,400
Speaker 1: underground where Hitler was. On the other side you see

2405
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:27,800
Speaker 1: where they're the buildings where they wouldn't let people live

2406
02:05:27,960 --> 02:05:29,960
Speaker 1: because they were afraid. The first they were using ropes

2407
02:05:30,040 --> 02:05:32,320
Speaker 1: to go over the wall. I mean, you get this

2408
02:05:32,520 --> 02:05:35,760
Speaker 1: really heavy feeling. It's really scary. I mean, when I

2409
02:05:35,840 --> 02:05:39,000
Speaker 1: first went to Berlin, you know, Checkpoint Charlie was still

2410
02:05:39,040 --> 02:05:41,320
Speaker 1: operating and we still had to cross through it to

2411
02:05:41,360 --> 02:05:44,000
Speaker 1: get to East Berlin, you know, and East Berlin had nothing.

2412
02:05:44,280 --> 02:05:45,720
Speaker 1: You know, you go to East Berlin now and it's

2413
02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:48,680
Speaker 1: like any affluent part of Europe, but back then it

2414
02:05:48,880 --> 02:05:50,920
Speaker 1: was it was grim and there wasn't much there and

2415
02:05:51,000 --> 02:05:53,680
Speaker 1: people were really struggling. So when you're in Berlin record

2416
02:05:53,680 --> 02:05:56,840
Speaker 1: you would go to East Berlin with just to see

2417
02:05:56,880 --> 02:05:58,760
Speaker 1: what's going on. But we went there to see what's

2418
02:05:58,760 --> 02:06:01,280
Speaker 1: going on there, and because of an incredibly hip kind

2419
02:06:01,320 --> 02:06:03,160
Speaker 1: of scene there, you know, because it was forbidden, and

2420
02:06:03,200 --> 02:06:06,640
Speaker 1: anything forbidden people won't right, So you make the record

2421
02:06:06,720 --> 02:06:11,320
Speaker 1: in Berlin because the lead singer was whacked or burned

2422
02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:15,400
Speaker 1: out or kicked out, not none of the above. Good

2423
02:06:15,400 --> 02:06:18,440
Speaker 1: Bye Ms. Mackenzie went to Hansa to to record a record,

2424
02:06:18,560 --> 02:06:21,360
Speaker 1: and we just got lost in a frenzy of partying.

2425
02:06:22,400 --> 02:06:25,920
Speaker 1: And we spent our entire recording advance on having fun.

2426
02:06:26,320 --> 02:06:29,040
Speaker 1: And then when we came back we had nothing to

2427
02:06:29,080 --> 02:06:31,000
Speaker 1: show for it. We hadn't we had no finished music

2428
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:35,200
Speaker 1: or anything. I can't remember a good idea. So you

2429
02:06:35,280 --> 02:06:37,320
Speaker 1: blow all the money. Record companies don't like that. They

2430
02:06:37,440 --> 02:06:39,560
Speaker 1: hated that, so they dropped the band. But they held

2431
02:06:39,680 --> 02:06:42,080
Speaker 1: up like the head of the record label said, I

2432
02:06:42,240 --> 02:06:44,200
Speaker 1: love you. I think you're amazing, and you could do

2433
02:06:44,280 --> 02:06:46,240
Speaker 1: something on your own. Call me when you get your

2434
02:06:46,280 --> 02:06:49,720
Speaker 1: ship together. Okay, but you were not the lead vocalist

2435
02:06:49,720 --> 02:06:52,440
Speaker 1: at good Bye, Mr Mackenzie. So why did this person?

2436
02:06:52,880 --> 02:06:56,840
Speaker 1: It was just your overall charisma that he felt. I

2437
02:06:57,000 --> 02:06:58,880
Speaker 1: don't know, I've never stopped to think about it other

2438
02:06:58,960 --> 02:07:01,480
Speaker 1: than he to me. You know, he was a really

2439
02:07:02,160 --> 02:07:04,360
Speaker 1: amazing person. Actually, his name is Gary Carr first, and

2440
02:07:04,440 --> 02:07:08,360
Speaker 1: he was I know, Gary unfortunately is not with us, unfortunately,

2441
02:07:08,640 --> 02:07:11,920
Speaker 1: but he was. Uh. He had his own label, radio

2442
02:07:12,000 --> 02:07:14,400
Speaker 1: Active for m c A. And he was a big

2443
02:07:14,520 --> 02:07:19,000
Speaker 1: manager of the Talking Heads and exactly, but he was

2444
02:07:19,040 --> 02:07:22,760
Speaker 1: in New York. How did he find you in London? Oh? Gods.

2445
02:07:23,600 --> 02:07:26,840
Speaker 1: We had opened Gobamis mackenzie had opened for for Debbie

2446
02:07:26,880 --> 02:07:30,920
Speaker 1: Harry's solo tour in the UK during the eighties, and

2447
02:07:31,240 --> 02:07:33,640
Speaker 1: he had met me there and just liked me. He's like,

2448
02:07:33,680 --> 02:07:36,480
Speaker 1: you're funny, You've got charisma, your star. He kept on.

2449
02:07:36,600 --> 02:07:38,920
Speaker 1: So he was always like, you're a star. So and

2450
02:07:39,200 --> 02:07:41,760
Speaker 1: and he just as a result, he then fell in

2451
02:07:41,800 --> 02:07:44,240
Speaker 1: love with Obamis Ckenzie signed Obamas Mackenzie and then when

2452
02:07:44,240 --> 02:07:46,640
Speaker 1: he dropped Obamers Ckenzie, he was like, I want you

2453
02:07:47,360 --> 02:07:48,800
Speaker 1: let me know what you're gonna do. Okay, So how

2454
02:07:48,880 --> 02:07:50,440
Speaker 1: long did you go home before you say I'm ready

2455
02:07:50,480 --> 02:07:52,960
Speaker 1: to call Gary again? I can't remember. I do know

2456
02:07:53,120 --> 02:07:56,680
Speaker 1: that eventually everyone in the band, having been dropped, realized

2457
02:07:56,760 --> 02:07:59,640
Speaker 1: this was our only only solution, which was and and

2458
02:07:59,720 --> 02:08:02,120
Speaker 1: there's no thought in your brain, Hey, this doesn't work,

2459
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:04,720
Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave the band behind. No, because I wasn't

2460
02:08:04,760 --> 02:08:06,840
Speaker 1: fit for anything. I didn't. I didn't have any calls.

2461
02:08:07,000 --> 02:08:09,600
Speaker 1: But I mean, you didn't say, Okay, this Gary thinks

2462
02:08:09,640 --> 02:08:11,960
Speaker 1: I'm a star. I'm gonna make a deal and leave

2463
02:08:12,000 --> 02:08:13,840
Speaker 1: the rest of the band members behind. No, that's not

2464
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:17,160
Speaker 1: my style. I'm kitde loyal, okay, And I didn't want

2465
02:08:17,160 --> 02:08:19,200
Speaker 1: to leave my band in the shitter, okay. But all

2466
02:08:19,200 --> 02:08:21,720
Speaker 1: of a sudden, how do you become the singer? I

2467
02:08:21,800 --> 02:08:24,160
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, it's it's so smudgy now and

2468
02:08:24,280 --> 02:08:27,240
Speaker 1: trying to remember our hazy memories. But I think just

2469
02:08:27,680 --> 02:08:29,960
Speaker 1: the whole band were like, let's put Shirley and lead

2470
02:08:30,040 --> 02:08:33,640
Speaker 1: vocals and will recalibrate and we'll survive as a different entity.

2471
02:08:34,080 --> 02:08:35,880
Speaker 1: And we all thought in practice we could do that.

2472
02:08:36,000 --> 02:08:38,560
Speaker 1: As it turns out, the male members of the band

2473
02:08:38,600 --> 02:08:40,960
Speaker 1: couldn't really hack the fact that I became the sort

2474
02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:43,320
Speaker 1: of focal point of the band, and and all the

2475
02:08:43,400 --> 02:08:46,440
Speaker 1: business started like Gary would run all business through me.

2476
02:08:46,760 --> 02:08:50,880
Speaker 1: Having been burned by good Mackenzie in Berlin, he was like,

2477
02:08:51,000 --> 02:08:54,440
Speaker 1: you're now in charge, you're responsible. I will only communicate

2478
02:08:54,520 --> 02:08:58,839
Speaker 1: with you. So that's kind of how it how it happened.

2479
02:08:58,880 --> 02:09:01,520
Speaker 1: And I made a record with Chris Franz and Tina

2480
02:09:01,560 --> 02:09:04,400
Speaker 1: Weymouth of the Talking Heads, because they were got his clients.

2481
02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:06,960
Speaker 1: And okay, a little bit slower you made her. I

2482
02:09:07,040 --> 02:09:09,640
Speaker 1: thought you made a record with the remnants of Goodbye.

2483
02:09:10,080 --> 02:09:13,480
Speaker 1: I did, but Chris and Tina were producing. Chris now

2484
02:09:13,600 --> 02:09:17,920
Speaker 1: lives in my hometown. I hear from an irregular basis. Yes,

2485
02:09:18,400 --> 02:09:22,600
Speaker 1: so fair Field, Connecticut. So how how do you are you?

2486
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:25,880
Speaker 1: Were you happy with what transpired when those sessions? I

2487
02:09:26,000 --> 02:09:28,320
Speaker 1: was freaked out. But it was such an honor for

2488
02:09:28,400 --> 02:09:30,080
Speaker 1: me to work with Christ and Tina. I mean, I

2489
02:09:30,200 --> 02:09:33,080
Speaker 1: can't even put that into words. It was so extraordinary

2490
02:09:33,240 --> 02:09:37,720
Speaker 1: for me, and I was I was proud of what

2491
02:09:37,920 --> 02:09:42,440
Speaker 1: we've accomplished, you know. And uh, at that point, you

2492
02:09:42,480 --> 02:09:46,320
Speaker 1: were the singer, were you also the writer? Nope? And

2493
02:09:46,440 --> 02:09:50,680
Speaker 1: so the two guys from Goodbye also continue to write

2494
02:09:50,720 --> 02:09:52,920
Speaker 1: the songs. They continued to write the songs. Like I said,

2495
02:09:52,960 --> 02:09:55,520
Speaker 1: it was just a recalibration of goodby Ms mackenzie. Just

2496
02:09:55,600 --> 02:09:58,240
Speaker 1: in order to survive, we had me do the the

2497
02:09:59,000 --> 02:10:02,080
Speaker 1: take over the book, but the writing partnership remained the same.

2498
02:10:02,320 --> 02:10:05,040
Speaker 1: And the record comes out and then one and then

2499
02:10:05,120 --> 02:10:09,040
Speaker 1: we go on tour with Vic Chestnut and Life Chestnut. Yeah,

2500
02:10:10,440 --> 02:10:14,160
Speaker 1: that's quite a bill. That's an amazing bill. Actually, I

2501
02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:15,920
Speaker 1: fell in love with Vic and he fell in love

2502
02:10:16,000 --> 02:10:19,040
Speaker 1: with me, and we had a love fest. But well,

2503
02:10:19,160 --> 02:10:22,360
Speaker 1: Vic Chestnut was in a wheelchair, he was he was apparent. Yeah,

2504
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:23,960
Speaker 1: so I have to ask that you said we had

2505
02:10:24,000 --> 02:10:26,720
Speaker 1: a love fest. Was this a physical love fest? No,

2506
02:10:26,960 --> 02:10:32,640
Speaker 1: just admiration. Yeah, yeah, we just got we hit it off,

2507
02:10:32,800 --> 02:10:37,560
Speaker 1: you know. Okay, he committed suicide, very strange. Yeah, okay,

2508
02:10:37,640 --> 02:10:40,600
Speaker 1: so you go on tour that that bill. We go

2509
02:10:40,680 --> 02:10:44,680
Speaker 1: on to her and, um, the band is sort of

2510
02:10:44,720 --> 02:10:47,560
Speaker 1: falling apart already because the boys are just are not

2511
02:10:47,720 --> 02:10:50,080
Speaker 1: happy with the Paris structure at this point, which I

2512
02:10:50,160 --> 02:10:53,600
Speaker 1: totally understand. Why should you understand? Well, I don't know,

2513
02:10:53,760 --> 02:10:57,000
Speaker 1: but I did, And but I was having fun. You know,

2514
02:10:57,120 --> 02:10:58,840
Speaker 1: I was going on to in America for the first time.

2515
02:10:58,840 --> 02:11:01,160
Speaker 1: I've never been to Americans sure, so to like travel

2516
02:11:01,280 --> 02:11:03,800
Speaker 1: all over America in a van was one of the

2517
02:11:03,880 --> 02:11:06,600
Speaker 1: most extraordinary experiences of my life. You know, it's across

2518
02:11:06,640 --> 02:11:09,040
Speaker 1: the desert in a band. Well, the funny things I

2519
02:11:09,120 --> 02:11:11,240
Speaker 1: grew up in the seventies, that was the dream to

2520
02:11:11,360 --> 02:11:14,080
Speaker 1: drive across country and now everybody flies. People don't even

2521
02:11:14,120 --> 02:11:16,080
Speaker 1: do that, which is sad because it really is an

2522
02:11:16,120 --> 02:11:19,320
Speaker 1: extraordinary way to see. So we did that, and then

2523
02:11:19,480 --> 02:11:22,560
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone picked up on us and sort of lauded

2524
02:11:22,680 --> 02:11:25,280
Speaker 1: us as like what one to watch And that was

2525
02:11:25,480 --> 02:11:27,160
Speaker 1: the final straw for my band. They were like, we're

2526
02:11:27,200 --> 02:11:29,760
Speaker 1: going home. We can't hack this anymore. And I kid

2527
02:11:29,880 --> 02:11:32,800
Speaker 1: you not. That very day I had gotten a phone

2528
02:11:32,840 --> 02:11:36,600
Speaker 1: call from my future band saying, would you be interested

2529
02:11:36,760 --> 02:11:40,960
Speaker 1: in meeting up with Butch vig Um about singing on

2530
02:11:41,120 --> 02:11:43,600
Speaker 1: a possibly singing on one of like a project that

2531
02:11:43,640 --> 02:11:46,520
Speaker 1: he's working on. Literally the same day the bands were

2532
02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:50,800
Speaker 1: calling it quits. Yes, okay, are you still friends with

2533
02:11:50,880 --> 02:11:54,280
Speaker 1: the band members of Goodbye Mr Mackenzie? Now? I am, yeah,

2534
02:11:54,360 --> 02:11:56,480
Speaker 1: but we have it was it was very difficult. It

2535
02:11:56,600 --> 02:12:00,600
Speaker 1: became very complex, and it was different called for Martin

2536
02:12:00,640 --> 02:12:02,720
Speaker 1: and the lead singer in particular, to like, I think

2537
02:12:02,880 --> 02:12:05,000
Speaker 1: process what had happened not only to him but to

2538
02:12:05,120 --> 02:12:07,920
Speaker 1: me too. But yeah, and now we're friends, and what

2539
02:12:08,000 --> 02:12:10,080
Speaker 1: do they do? There is still in a band that

2540
02:12:10,160 --> 02:12:12,920
Speaker 1: are called the Filthy Tongues. They are actually really great

2541
02:12:13,520 --> 02:12:15,760
Speaker 1: and they can make a living being the Filthy Tongues.

2542
02:12:15,920 --> 02:12:19,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if they make a living, but there

2543
02:12:19,240 --> 02:12:23,560
Speaker 1: are songwriters. They also work with Um the Skids. They

2544
02:12:23,680 --> 02:12:26,840
Speaker 1: just helped co write that last Skids record, the fourth

2545
02:12:26,880 --> 02:12:30,480
Speaker 1: anniversary of The Skids, Um Richard Jobson's band. And you

2546
02:12:30,560 --> 02:12:33,280
Speaker 1: know they do okay, and they're they're they're there. I'm

2547
02:12:33,280 --> 02:12:36,200
Speaker 1: proud of them. But they were resentful for a long yeah,

2548
02:12:37,240 --> 02:12:40,040
Speaker 1: just like ten or twenty years worth. Okay. So you

2549
02:12:40,120 --> 02:12:42,280
Speaker 1: get this call from Butch Vig and you think, what, Well,

2550
02:12:42,360 --> 02:12:44,360
Speaker 1: now you already know you're being as a band into you,

2551
02:12:44,480 --> 02:12:47,320
Speaker 1: so you're up for anything. Your loyalty has been canned. Yeah,

2552
02:12:47,400 --> 02:12:49,440
Speaker 1: I didn't have to question my own loyalty, thank god,

2553
02:12:49,480 --> 02:12:51,800
Speaker 1: because that would have been very difficult because I've already

2554
02:12:51,920 --> 02:12:55,480
Speaker 1: met Booch And and Garbage in London for a quick

2555
02:12:55,520 --> 02:12:58,640
Speaker 1: meeting where they had wanted, you know, so convoluted a story,

2556
02:12:58,720 --> 02:13:01,280
Speaker 1: but I had met them in Don a few months

2557
02:13:01,360 --> 02:13:04,000
Speaker 1: to going on tour in America and we had liked

2558
02:13:04,040 --> 02:13:06,080
Speaker 1: each other and that and then the day that my

2559
02:13:06,200 --> 02:13:08,680
Speaker 1: band quit was the day Duke Errickson called me. I

2560
02:13:08,760 --> 02:13:11,880
Speaker 1: was in Asbury Park in a hotel room, crying and

2561
02:13:11,920 --> 02:13:14,000
Speaker 1: I get the phone call from Duke Krickson saying, hey,

2562
02:13:14,040 --> 02:13:17,000
Speaker 1: are you interested in coming up for an addition? I

2563
02:13:17,080 --> 02:13:20,640
Speaker 1: was like, as a matter of fact, yes I am. Okay,

2564
02:13:20,800 --> 02:13:22,720
Speaker 1: but when you meet them in London, is it just

2565
02:13:22,880 --> 02:13:25,960
Speaker 1: social or are they checking you out? There? Checking me out?

2566
02:13:26,520 --> 02:13:29,080
Speaker 1: And did you know that at that time? Okay? But

2567
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:31,000
Speaker 1: I the way they had approached me was would you

2568
02:13:31,080 --> 02:13:33,680
Speaker 1: send one song on booch Figs project. I was like, yeah,

2569
02:13:33,840 --> 02:13:35,880
Speaker 1: of course, I didn't feel that question my loyalty or

2570
02:13:35,880 --> 02:13:38,040
Speaker 1: anything like that. Okay, so you go for the audition

2571
02:13:38,520 --> 02:13:40,640
Speaker 1: and you don't have anything else going on, nothing, so

2572
02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:42,919
Speaker 1: you must have been pretty anxious. I was very anxious.

2573
02:13:43,080 --> 02:13:45,640
Speaker 1: I was so anxious that I completely messed up the addition.

2574
02:13:45,720 --> 02:13:48,280
Speaker 1: It was a disaster. But then we all went out

2575
02:13:48,320 --> 02:13:50,200
Speaker 1: to drink afterwards, and of course we got on like

2576
02:13:50,240 --> 02:13:51,920
Speaker 1: a house on fire, and we had such a laugh

2577
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:56,800
Speaker 1: that I went home to Scotland having had a disastrous edition.

2578
02:13:57,200 --> 02:14:00,320
Speaker 1: Um and something about I guess the way we had

2579
02:14:00,560 --> 02:14:03,280
Speaker 1: all gotten along sort of pushed us to have a

2580
02:14:03,400 --> 02:14:07,720
Speaker 1: second edition. And okay, so did they agree the audition sucked?

2581
02:14:07,840 --> 02:14:10,120
Speaker 1: They did? What was bad about it? Have you ever

2582
02:14:10,160 --> 02:14:13,800
Speaker 1: seen shreds? Do you know what I mean by shreds? Okay, well,

2583
02:14:14,360 --> 02:14:17,040
Speaker 1: shreds is a thing that you can go on YouTube

2584
02:14:17,200 --> 02:14:19,440
Speaker 1: and like, let's say it's Radiohead singing one of their

2585
02:14:19,480 --> 02:14:22,840
Speaker 1: famous songs. Somebody like you. You watch a video radio

2586
02:14:22,880 --> 02:14:24,640
Speaker 1: Head singing one of their most famous songs, but then

2587
02:14:24,680 --> 02:14:27,120
Speaker 1: they've re recorded a different audio over the top of it,

2588
02:14:27,800 --> 02:14:32,840
Speaker 1: and it's like that, Well, that's what my audition was like.

2589
02:14:32,960 --> 02:14:35,480
Speaker 1: It was like shreds. So you couldn't I wasn't even

2590
02:14:35,600 --> 02:14:37,880
Speaker 1: articulating any words because I was so nervous and so

2591
02:14:38,000 --> 02:14:42,360
Speaker 1: embarrassed that it was just awful. How long was it

2592
02:14:42,400 --> 02:14:45,000
Speaker 1: between the first and second auditions, I don't know, maybe

2593
02:14:45,080 --> 02:14:48,440
Speaker 1: three months, a long time. And during that period you've

2594
02:14:48,440 --> 02:14:51,560
Speaker 1: got nothing. I got nothing, Okay, so you go back

2595
02:14:51,600 --> 02:14:56,160
Speaker 1: in the second audition is great, It is okay. Now

2596
02:14:57,080 --> 02:14:59,360
Speaker 1: these are guys you know. Butch Vig had a huge

2597
02:14:59,720 --> 02:15:04,320
Speaker 1: stud vidio career. But did you believe this was an opportunity?

2598
02:15:04,560 --> 02:15:07,360
Speaker 1: But did any it ended up becoming an instant success.

2599
02:15:08,040 --> 02:15:11,919
Speaker 1: But did you have any idea that's what would happen? No, none, whatsoever.

2600
02:15:12,080 --> 02:15:15,640
Speaker 1: In fact, I was convinced it was gonna burn badly

2601
02:15:16,080 --> 02:15:17,880
Speaker 1: because I was like, nobody wants to hear from a

2602
02:15:17,960 --> 02:15:22,480
Speaker 1: producer nobody ever has, So why will this work? Especially

2603
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:25,080
Speaker 1: with me and that's the lead singer. It's going to

2604
02:15:25,160 --> 02:15:29,360
Speaker 1: be a disaster. I was so wrong. Stare right there.

2605
02:15:29,400 --> 02:15:31,760
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more Shirley Manson of the band

2606
02:15:31,800 --> 02:15:36,440
Speaker 1: Garbage right here on the Bob Left Sense podcast. Hi,

2607
02:15:36,560 --> 02:15:38,440
Speaker 1: this is Bob Left Sense. My guest come to the

2608
02:15:38,480 --> 02:15:41,800
Speaker 1: tune In studios in Venice, California to have these conversations

2609
02:15:41,840 --> 02:15:43,360
Speaker 1: with me. And if you ever want to see what

2610
02:15:43,400 --> 02:15:45,480
Speaker 1: they look like or where we take the show, check

2611
02:15:45,520 --> 02:15:49,760
Speaker 1: out the photos and videos search at tune In on Twitter, Facebook,

2612
02:15:49,760 --> 02:15:52,680
Speaker 1: and Instagram. Let's dive right back in with my guest,

2613
02:15:52,720 --> 02:15:56,040
Speaker 1: Shirley Manson of the band Garbage. So you have the

2614
02:15:56,080 --> 02:15:58,280
Speaker 1: audition three months later? How long after that do you

2615
02:15:58,320 --> 02:16:01,280
Speaker 1: go in the studio? No idea, no idea, No, I'm useless.

2616
02:16:01,360 --> 02:16:03,720
Speaker 1: I'm a terrible witness. Okay, how about the record comes

2617
02:16:03,760 --> 02:16:08,840
Speaker 1: out on Almo in America? Why is that? Well, we'd

2618
02:16:08,960 --> 02:16:12,600
Speaker 1: signed up to the young management that took care of

2619
02:16:12,640 --> 02:16:15,160
Speaker 1: Boots at the time were very smart and they were young,

2620
02:16:15,240 --> 02:16:19,160
Speaker 1: go getting women who had an idea that the Butcher's

2621
02:16:19,240 --> 02:16:22,600
Speaker 1: managers were women. Young women that's certainly you know, were

2622
02:16:22,640 --> 02:16:27,200
Speaker 1: they also managers of garbage. Yes, okay, that's my default. Okay,

2623
02:16:27,240 --> 02:16:30,480
Speaker 1: but that's that's certainly out of the ordinary, especially notable

2624
02:16:30,520 --> 02:16:34,240
Speaker 1: on today's ME two world. Correct. And then they struck

2625
02:16:34,320 --> 02:16:37,400
Speaker 1: two deals, one in the UK for the rest of

2626
02:16:37,480 --> 02:16:39,880
Speaker 1: the world and one for North America. And they were

2627
02:16:39,959 --> 02:16:42,600
Speaker 1: both independent record labels, and that was what we were

2628
02:16:42,720 --> 02:16:45,600
Speaker 1: very keen on pursuing because what was the record label

2629
02:16:45,640 --> 02:16:51,240
Speaker 1: in the UK. Mushroom Records were Australian based. And so

2630
02:16:51,480 --> 02:16:56,800
Speaker 1: you're making the the record which takes how long? Oh god,

2631
02:16:58,160 --> 02:17:02,200
Speaker 1: about eighteen months with a break for Booch to make

2632
02:17:02,240 --> 02:17:07,080
Speaker 1: a Soul Asylum record of all things. So is it

2633
02:17:07,160 --> 02:17:11,600
Speaker 1: it's that slow? Because well, I think there was a

2634
02:17:11,640 --> 02:17:14,680
Speaker 1: lot of feet involved and Booch had a lot to lose,

2635
02:17:15,200 --> 02:17:21,199
Speaker 1: and so he was very, very meticulous, and I would

2636
02:17:21,200 --> 02:17:24,400
Speaker 1: say all of all of us were fearful of taking

2637
02:17:24,440 --> 02:17:26,320
Speaker 1: the wrong step. We knew this was a great opportunity,

2638
02:17:26,400 --> 02:17:29,480
Speaker 1: I think, and so just took a ridiculously long time.

2639
02:17:29,520 --> 02:17:31,240
Speaker 1: And when the record is and you're living where when

2640
02:17:31,280 --> 02:17:35,440
Speaker 1: that time, I'm living in a weird hotel, okay, and

2641
02:17:36,320 --> 02:17:39,520
Speaker 1: the record is done, Now do you think we have something?

2642
02:17:39,600 --> 02:17:42,600
Speaker 1: This is gonna work? Not really, but it's a hit.

2643
02:17:43,000 --> 02:17:46,520
Speaker 1: From the Los Angeles perspective, it is literally immediately a hit.

2644
02:17:46,879 --> 02:17:48,400
Speaker 1: And the only other thing I could think like this

2645
02:17:48,840 --> 02:17:50,440
Speaker 1: from a couple of years later was Lantis more as

2646
02:17:50,520 --> 02:17:54,359
Speaker 1: Set also immediately a hit, and was that your sensation?

2647
02:17:56,360 --> 02:17:58,240
Speaker 1: Yes and no. I mean we were aware that it

2648
02:17:58,360 --> 02:18:01,520
Speaker 1: was taking off in a major way really fast, but

2649
02:18:01,760 --> 02:18:04,160
Speaker 1: there were always artists that were doing so much better

2650
02:18:04,240 --> 02:18:06,520
Speaker 1: than us, and our record labels, because they were small,

2651
02:18:06,680 --> 02:18:09,880
Speaker 1: really relied on us to make money for them. We

2652
02:18:10,200 --> 02:18:12,360
Speaker 1: became this sort of like little machine that they sent

2653
02:18:12,440 --> 02:18:14,720
Speaker 1: out into the world to fund all their other artists

2654
02:18:14,760 --> 02:18:18,240
Speaker 1: who weren't selling. And so they were constantly telling us,

2655
02:18:18,280 --> 02:18:20,240
Speaker 1: you know, no doubt or selling more records than you.

2656
02:18:20,480 --> 02:18:22,960
Speaker 1: Atlantis more Set is selling more than you. You know,

2657
02:18:23,080 --> 02:18:25,520
Speaker 1: we'se are selling more than you. You're losing. It was

2658
02:18:25,600 --> 02:18:29,560
Speaker 1: constantly telling us how much we were losing. So as

2659
02:18:29,640 --> 02:18:32,720
Speaker 1: frustrating and awful as that process was, I'm actually quite

2660
02:18:32,760 --> 02:18:36,600
Speaker 1: grateful for it because it made us really like be humble.

2661
02:18:36,800 --> 02:18:40,320
Speaker 1: We were forced to be humble. Okay, but it's the

2662
02:18:40,520 --> 02:18:43,880
Speaker 1: MTV era. You're all over television, you have a unique look.

2663
02:18:44,040 --> 02:18:47,160
Speaker 1: You probably can't go anywhere without being recognized almost immediately.

2664
02:18:47,520 --> 02:18:49,720
Speaker 1: There was a lot of pressure. Okay, but that also

2665
02:18:49,840 --> 02:18:53,280
Speaker 1: made much you know, after years of relative obscurity, must

2666
02:18:53,320 --> 02:18:55,560
Speaker 1: have made you feel very good on the inside. No,

2667
02:18:55,640 --> 02:18:59,480
Speaker 1: it made me feel rotten on the inside. I don't

2668
02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:01,400
Speaker 1: know why. I mean I I didn't have a lot

2669
02:19:01,440 --> 02:19:04,640
Speaker 1: of self esteem to begin with, and and having attention

2670
02:19:04,800 --> 02:19:07,040
Speaker 1: made me feel really self conscious. And I felt the

2671
02:19:07,080 --> 02:19:09,440
Speaker 1: whole time I was being judged and that I was

2672
02:19:09,640 --> 02:19:13,520
Speaker 1: failing to be a Gwen Stefani or be an Atlantis

2673
02:19:13,560 --> 02:19:15,440
Speaker 1: Moore set. I was just me, surely, Anne, you know,

2674
02:19:15,560 --> 02:19:19,039
Speaker 1: I was just my own, small, little Scottish self. That's

2675
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:21,080
Speaker 1: how I viewed it at the time. I mean that

2676
02:19:21,280 --> 02:19:23,480
Speaker 1: changed obviously, you know, my confidence grew and I got

2677
02:19:23,520 --> 02:19:25,920
Speaker 1: better at what I did as an artist. But right

2678
02:19:25,959 --> 02:19:29,280
Speaker 1: at the beginning, yeah, I just felt rotten. And so

2679
02:19:30,280 --> 02:19:35,480
Speaker 1: ultimately you tour and there's and the garbage continues. So

2680
02:19:35,640 --> 02:19:37,720
Speaker 1: what can you say about that experience of the late

2681
02:19:37,840 --> 02:19:42,200
Speaker 1: nineties and early twenty one century. I could sit here

2682
02:19:42,240 --> 02:19:44,200
Speaker 1: for hours and hours and hours and talk about it.

2683
02:19:44,200 --> 02:19:46,480
Speaker 1: I mean it was extraordinary. It was an extraordinary time

2684
02:19:46,760 --> 02:19:50,760
Speaker 1: where alternative music ruled the roost, and that has never

2685
02:19:50,840 --> 02:19:54,440
Speaker 1: happened before. It's certainly never happened since. So I was.

2686
02:19:54,920 --> 02:19:58,520
Speaker 1: I am an alternative music lover. I'm not particularly turned

2687
02:19:58,560 --> 02:20:01,040
Speaker 1: on by pop or comeform tea of any sort. Like

2688
02:20:01,160 --> 02:20:05,120
Speaker 1: I love music that's sort of a little off kilter,

2689
02:20:05,480 --> 02:20:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, and that's just been my personal taste since

2690
02:20:08,040 --> 02:20:11,840
Speaker 1: I was young. And so it was a moment where

2691
02:20:12,160 --> 02:20:17,040
Speaker 1: we were enjoying this insane success, global success, as were

2692
02:20:17,120 --> 02:20:20,160
Speaker 1: a lot of bands that I loved and enjoyed, and

2693
02:20:20,320 --> 02:20:22,600
Speaker 1: we were a community in some ways, you know. We

2694
02:20:22,680 --> 02:20:25,920
Speaker 1: all played these massive summer festivals and we all got

2695
02:20:26,000 --> 02:20:28,840
Speaker 1: to know one another. We played winter you know, in

2696
02:20:29,040 --> 02:20:32,400
Speaker 1: radio festivals all together, and so there was a lot

2697
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:37,240
Speaker 1: of camaraderie and so it was a very exciting time

2698
02:20:37,760 --> 02:20:42,560
Speaker 1: for nonconforming alternative artists. And what were the other artists?

2699
02:20:42,560 --> 02:20:45,840
Speaker 1: You became friends with everybody, you know, whether it was Beck,

2700
02:20:46,040 --> 02:20:49,680
Speaker 1: whether it was you know, food Fighters, whether it was

2701
02:20:49,800 --> 02:20:52,240
Speaker 1: no doubt, whether it was Fiona Apple. I mean that

2702
02:20:52,480 --> 02:20:54,920
Speaker 1: the list was, you know, and we we all everyone

2703
02:20:55,040 --> 02:20:57,000
Speaker 1: was friendly to one another, as Missy Elliott, I mean,

2704
02:20:57,040 --> 02:20:59,160
Speaker 1: it was. It was really wonderful. So why do you

2705
02:20:59,280 --> 02:21:02,200
Speaker 1: think that's scene was eclipsed by hip hop and pop.

2706
02:21:04,120 --> 02:21:06,720
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I mean, I know why it

2707
02:21:07,000 --> 02:21:12,040
Speaker 1: became eclipsed by pop because I think that I think

2708
02:21:12,080 --> 02:21:14,480
Speaker 1: the times became very conservative. I think hip hop really

2709
02:21:14,520 --> 02:21:16,840
Speaker 1: exploded because it was a new It was still new.

2710
02:21:16,879 --> 02:21:18,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been around for twenty years, but it

2711
02:21:18,560 --> 02:21:22,000
Speaker 1: really was one of the the most courageous and creative

2712
02:21:22,080 --> 02:21:26,120
Speaker 1: in terms of modern production. You know, they really they

2713
02:21:26,240 --> 02:21:29,560
Speaker 1: sort of messed around with sounds and beats that we

2714
02:21:29,600 --> 02:21:32,600
Speaker 1: hadn't heard before, and it was the sound of the street,

2715
02:21:32,720 --> 02:21:35,440
Speaker 1: was the sound of rebellion. So hip hop, I think

2716
02:21:35,520 --> 02:21:41,880
Speaker 1: became the most authentic version of rebellion and questioning of

2717
02:21:43,440 --> 02:21:49,240
Speaker 1: authority and and and our society in a way. But

2718
02:21:49,360 --> 02:21:52,200
Speaker 1: is there any hope for so called alternative music. There's

2719
02:21:52,200 --> 02:21:54,840
Speaker 1: always hope, of course, Okay, well there's always hope. It's blind,

2720
02:21:55,160 --> 02:21:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, blind optimism. No, I don't think that is

2721
02:21:57,600 --> 02:22:00,640
Speaker 1: blind optimism, and I think it's actually sensible and pragmatic

2722
02:22:00,760 --> 02:22:04,640
Speaker 1: because I think history continues to repeat itself. Well, the

2723
02:22:04,680 --> 02:22:07,520
Speaker 1: irony is in the century really hasn't If you go

2724
02:22:07,640 --> 02:22:11,000
Speaker 1: back prior to the napstri era, meaning last century, every

2725
02:22:11,240 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 1: two or three years there was a whole new sound Okay,

2726
02:22:14,560 --> 02:22:17,000
Speaker 1: we had the hair bands which were clipped by seattle,

2727
02:22:17,280 --> 02:22:20,320
Speaker 1: which were eclipped by eclips by hip hop. It was

2728
02:22:20,400 --> 02:22:22,680
Speaker 1: then then it pop came after that. Now for the

2729
02:22:22,760 --> 02:22:25,400
Speaker 1: twenty one century, we've had popp pop and hip hop.

2730
02:22:25,760 --> 02:22:27,440
Speaker 1: Hip hop happens to be dominant now, but it's been

2731
02:22:27,440 --> 02:22:31,879
Speaker 1: almost twenty years. No, it's true. But I mean one

2732
02:22:32,000 --> 02:22:35,160
Speaker 1: could say though that hip hop has been the dominant

2733
02:22:35,800 --> 02:22:40,480
Speaker 1: sound of the last twenty years, and it's really progressive

2734
02:22:40,520 --> 02:22:45,880
Speaker 1: and really exciting, and really I do. I mean it's not. Again,

2735
02:22:45,959 --> 02:22:49,920
Speaker 1: it's not my preferred choice, but there's always artists that

2736
02:22:50,000 --> 02:22:53,000
Speaker 1: come along that catch my ear and excite me, whether

2737
02:22:53,040 --> 02:22:55,520
Speaker 1: it's Drake, whether it's Logic or whether you know, there's

2738
02:22:55,560 --> 02:23:01,320
Speaker 1: always someone um that I'm excited by. Okay, But you're

2739
02:23:01,360 --> 02:23:04,400
Speaker 1: making a point about, you know, why alternative music has

2740
02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:06,840
Speaker 1: been eclipsed by hip hop and what the future of

2741
02:23:06,840 --> 02:23:10,320
Speaker 1: alternative music might be. I don't know. I mean, if

2742
02:23:10,360 --> 02:23:12,240
Speaker 1: I had the answer to that, I would be you know,

2743
02:23:12,879 --> 02:23:15,960
Speaker 1: I would be investing in it. Well, you are investing here,

2744
02:23:16,000 --> 02:23:19,200
Speaker 1: You're still making it. I'm invested in it. Yeah, that's true,

2745
02:23:19,520 --> 02:23:21,160
Speaker 1: but I mean it's very different. It used to be

2746
02:23:21,360 --> 02:23:24,840
Speaker 1: and under the old paradigm, you made the record okay,

2747
02:23:25,200 --> 02:23:28,520
Speaker 1: Then your label went to video sources, MTV, whatever, went

2748
02:23:28,560 --> 02:23:31,640
Speaker 1: to radio. They may or may not play it. They

2749
02:23:31,800 --> 02:23:34,640
Speaker 1: may or may not be a reaction. But you were

2750
02:23:34,720 --> 02:23:37,320
Speaker 1: either on the train or you're off the train. You said, hey,

2751
02:23:37,400 --> 02:23:40,760
Speaker 1: this works or it doesn't work. Today, a band of

2752
02:23:40,920 --> 02:23:44,240
Speaker 1: the Statue of Garbage can put out a record and

2753
02:23:44,320 --> 02:23:47,400
Speaker 1: it can have almost zero cultural impact other than amongst

2754
02:23:47,440 --> 02:23:50,760
Speaker 1: its fans. What is that like being the maker of

2755
02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:55,440
Speaker 1: that music? You know, it's interesting because it obviously as

2756
02:23:55,480 --> 02:23:59,080
Speaker 1: an artist who you know, I've had to wrestle with that.

2757
02:23:59,520 --> 02:24:03,640
Speaker 1: That's not an easy pill to swallow. It's difficult and upsetting.

2758
02:24:03,680 --> 02:24:06,920
Speaker 1: I'd be a liar if I said otherwise. But I've

2759
02:24:07,040 --> 02:24:11,480
Speaker 1: also managed to process, and I'm very grateful for this,

2760
02:24:11,760 --> 02:24:14,600
Speaker 1: as has my bands. By the way, is get back

2761
02:24:14,640 --> 02:24:17,080
Speaker 1: into what I call a beginner's head space, a sort

2762
02:24:17,120 --> 02:24:22,920
Speaker 1: of a place where you don't expect anything. And we've

2763
02:24:22,959 --> 02:24:25,760
Speaker 1: all been able to somehow get back to that space

2764
02:24:26,000 --> 02:24:29,880
Speaker 1: where we were before any of the success. So we

2765
02:24:30,040 --> 02:24:33,400
Speaker 1: now make music solely because we love each other. We

2766
02:24:33,840 --> 02:24:37,840
Speaker 1: have a good creative working relationship, We enjoy making music,

2767
02:24:37,920 --> 02:24:41,320
Speaker 1: and we enjoy touring it and our ambitions are not

2768
02:24:41,600 --> 02:24:44,240
Speaker 1: much bigger than that. And as a result, we've been

2769
02:24:44,280 --> 02:24:47,600
Speaker 1: able to still find joy in the process of doing

2770
02:24:47,680 --> 02:24:51,160
Speaker 1: what we do. And we've been very lucky and that

2771
02:24:51,240 --> 02:24:54,040
Speaker 1: we've built upon that slowly and we have a very

2772
02:24:54,160 --> 02:24:59,640
Speaker 1: loyal fan base. And yeah, we were still able to

2773
02:25:00,959 --> 02:25:03,840
Speaker 1: be in the music scene, you know, Okay, but there's

2774
02:25:03,879 --> 02:25:06,520
Speaker 1: a lot these especially now more than ever. It's a

2775
02:25:06,600 --> 02:25:09,640
Speaker 1: business and when you go on the road, you have

2776
02:25:09,800 --> 02:25:12,560
Speaker 1: to feed everybody in the crew, everybody in the band

2777
02:25:12,640 --> 02:25:14,040
Speaker 1: has to be in the black at the end of

2778
02:25:14,080 --> 02:25:16,920
Speaker 1: the day. There's an agent, there's a manager, so there's

2779
02:25:16,959 --> 02:25:20,880
Speaker 1: a pressure to sell as many tickets as possible. You

2780
02:25:21,000 --> 02:25:24,240
Speaker 1: must feel that pressure, right, So then it becomes an issue.

2781
02:25:24,280 --> 02:25:26,720
Speaker 1: You go out, you say, well, they want to hear

2782
02:25:26,760 --> 02:25:29,600
Speaker 1: the hits? How much new music do you play? It's

2783
02:25:29,720 --> 02:25:31,600
Speaker 1: one thing to be in the studio saying, hey, we're

2784
02:25:31,640 --> 02:25:34,520
Speaker 1: gonna do whatever we want to do. What pressure do

2785
02:25:34,600 --> 02:25:36,400
Speaker 1: you feel on stage and how do you deal with that?

2786
02:25:36,520 --> 02:25:39,720
Speaker 1: I don't feel any pressure on stage at all. I

2787
02:25:39,879 --> 02:25:47,160
Speaker 1: feel comfortable enough to to own our expression when we're

2788
02:25:47,200 --> 02:25:50,080
Speaker 1: on stage, and if people don't like that, then so

2789
02:25:50,280 --> 02:25:52,240
Speaker 1: be it. That's not for me to say, but I

2790
02:25:52,400 --> 02:25:55,240
Speaker 1: feel in general at this point, anyone who's coming to

2791
02:25:55,320 --> 02:25:57,960
Speaker 1: a garbage shoe is willing to go on that ride

2792
02:25:58,040 --> 02:25:59,800
Speaker 1: with us. They're not going to sit there and go, well,

2793
02:25:59,879 --> 02:26:02,320
Speaker 1: you didn't play stupid girl, you didn't play only happy

2794
02:26:02,320 --> 02:26:05,959
Speaker 1: when it rains. Everybody seems to be content to come

2795
02:26:06,040 --> 02:26:08,600
Speaker 1: with us in whatever. So if you have new music

2796
02:26:08,640 --> 02:26:09,800
Speaker 1: and you go on the road, how much of the

2797
02:26:09,840 --> 02:26:14,120
Speaker 1: new album will you play? The last record that we released,

2798
02:26:14,160 --> 02:26:17,560
Speaker 1: we played half of it, Okay, And you're on stage

2799
02:26:17,920 --> 02:26:20,720
Speaker 1: and you're watching, do you visibly see people get up

2800
02:26:20,760 --> 02:26:22,960
Speaker 1: and go to the bathroom? Of course? Now, we were

2801
02:26:23,000 --> 02:26:25,720
Speaker 1: on we were on tour last year and we it

2802
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:28,400
Speaker 1: was summertime, you know, you're playing these festivals. And I

2803
02:26:28,480 --> 02:26:31,040
Speaker 1: looked out and there was a man on a sun lounger,

2804
02:26:31,160 --> 02:26:36,240
Speaker 1: fast asleep throughout our entire set. So what you're on stage,

2805
02:26:36,600 --> 02:26:38,480
Speaker 1: what goes through your mind or through your heart? Well,

2806
02:26:38,520 --> 02:26:40,480
Speaker 1: when I was younger, that would have devastated me. Now

2807
02:26:40,560 --> 02:26:42,840
Speaker 1: I find it funny, and I realized, I'm like, I

2808
02:26:42,920 --> 02:26:45,680
Speaker 1: am here to do a job and connect with someone.

2809
02:26:46,160 --> 02:26:48,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be everyone. You know, I'm not

2810
02:26:48,959 --> 02:26:51,320
Speaker 1: failing if I don't touch every heart in this audience.

2811
02:26:51,400 --> 02:26:54,920
Speaker 1: But my job is to get out there and tell

2812
02:26:55,000 --> 02:26:57,760
Speaker 1: my truth and hope that somehow I connect with one

2813
02:26:57,920 --> 02:27:00,640
Speaker 1: or more people. And that's all I think about. I

2814
02:27:00,720 --> 02:27:03,920
Speaker 1: don't worry about being famous, I don't worry about being important.

2815
02:27:04,240 --> 02:27:06,360
Speaker 1: I don't worry about being a start. I really did

2816
02:27:06,480 --> 02:27:08,520
Speaker 1: not give a ship. I'd want to be a working

2817
02:27:08,640 --> 02:27:12,720
Speaker 1: musician because that's well I value. I value working musicians

2818
02:27:12,800 --> 02:27:16,240
Speaker 1: more than anything in the world. That's my gam Okay,

2819
02:27:16,560 --> 02:27:20,320
Speaker 1: Two things. One two thousand five, Deaf Leopard and Brian

2820
02:27:20,360 --> 02:27:22,920
Speaker 1: Adams went on a tour where they played ballparks and

2821
02:27:22,920 --> 02:27:25,480
Speaker 1: they would alternate headlining, and I happen to see them

2822
02:27:25,520 --> 02:27:28,760
Speaker 1: in they were minor league ballparks in Minnesota, and at

2823
02:27:28,800 --> 02:27:31,360
Speaker 1: that time, the opening act on that date was Brian Adams.

2824
02:27:31,440 --> 02:27:33,800
Speaker 1: He had had a set list and he's playing, but

2825
02:27:33,879 --> 02:27:36,200
Speaker 1: also he could bring children in for free whatever, and

2826
02:27:36,280 --> 02:27:39,320
Speaker 1: he was having this experience of the audience not being

2827
02:27:39,360 --> 02:27:41,800
Speaker 1: with him, and he literally, I was standing on stage literally,

2828
02:27:42,040 --> 02:27:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, looked at the band, literally took out the

2829
02:27:44,200 --> 02:27:48,240
Speaker 1: set list and ripped it in half and slowly brought

2830
02:27:48,720 --> 02:27:51,040
Speaker 1: the audience into the palm of his hand and worked

2831
02:27:51,080 --> 02:27:53,640
Speaker 1: them into a frenzy. It was a magical thing, you know,

2832
02:27:53,879 --> 02:27:56,600
Speaker 1: something that only someone was very experienced doing it. Do

2833
02:27:56,760 --> 02:27:59,960
Speaker 1: you ever feel challenged in that way that, Okay, I'm

2834
02:28:00,000 --> 02:28:03,840
Speaker 1: gonna win them over All the time I go out

2835
02:28:03,959 --> 02:28:07,640
Speaker 1: feeling like it's like we are coming from a place

2836
02:28:07,680 --> 02:28:11,240
Speaker 1: of lack we are going to try and change in mind.

2837
02:28:12,240 --> 02:28:16,720
Speaker 1: I always feel like that, Yeah, okay, so now, how

2838
02:28:16,879 --> 02:28:21,760
Speaker 1: often does garbage works? It's that's doesn't even apply to

2839
02:28:21,920 --> 02:28:24,720
Speaker 1: us because we have such a bizarre set up. Well,

2840
02:28:24,760 --> 02:28:26,480
Speaker 1: the reason I'm asking what do you do with the

2841
02:28:26,520 --> 02:28:28,280
Speaker 1: rest of your time? That's a good question. I have

2842
02:28:28,320 --> 02:28:33,039
Speaker 1: absolutely no idea set a home feeling like of work tiger. Okay,

2843
02:28:33,040 --> 02:28:34,600
Speaker 1: you're an out of out of work tiger. Are you

2844
02:28:34,680 --> 02:28:37,160
Speaker 1: the type pacing the cage saying, hey, I want my

2845
02:28:37,240 --> 02:28:40,760
Speaker 1: bad members to record or go on the road or okay,

2846
02:28:40,959 --> 02:28:44,840
Speaker 1: but how about independent things that are fulfilling, whether it

2847
02:28:44,879 --> 02:28:48,040
Speaker 1: be music, aren't anything? Everything is fulfilling to me At

2848
02:28:48,080 --> 02:28:50,080
Speaker 1: this point, I feel it's up to me to find

2849
02:28:50,160 --> 02:28:52,120
Speaker 1: joy in my life. It's not nobody else is going

2850
02:28:52,160 --> 02:28:54,240
Speaker 1: to come and serve it to me. You know, you're

2851
02:28:54,240 --> 02:28:57,680
Speaker 1: painting a picture of you're very happy when you're working, okay,

2852
02:28:58,000 --> 02:29:00,640
Speaker 1: and when you're not working, you're frust rated. You would

2853
02:29:00,640 --> 02:29:02,760
Speaker 1: like to be working with the band. I am frustrated,

2854
02:29:02,840 --> 02:29:04,960
Speaker 1: but I think life isn't that simple. You know, human

2855
02:29:05,000 --> 02:29:07,240
Speaker 1: beings are complex. So yeah, I can be frustrated and

2856
02:29:07,320 --> 02:29:09,560
Speaker 1: also go out to an art gallity and see something

2857
02:29:09,600 --> 02:29:12,039
Speaker 1: that will blow my mind and make me feel excited.

2858
02:29:12,160 --> 02:29:15,119
Speaker 1: And I have like all these ideas and it excites

2859
02:29:15,200 --> 02:29:18,039
Speaker 1: me and I feel joyful, and and then I'll come

2860
02:29:18,080 --> 02:29:20,680
Speaker 1: home and fall into a slump again. I mean, I'm cute,

2861
02:29:21,040 --> 02:29:23,800
Speaker 1: like most human beings are. Okay, But okay, this is

2862
02:29:23,840 --> 02:29:25,680
Speaker 1: another thing I've noticed, because you know, when I'm right,

2863
02:29:25,680 --> 02:29:27,560
Speaker 1: I'm writing in the house, and a lot of times

2864
02:29:27,600 --> 02:29:29,400
Speaker 1: I'll be in a bad mood and you literally walk

2865
02:29:29,400 --> 02:29:32,000
Speaker 1: out the front door in your mood changes. It's just astounding.

2866
02:29:32,080 --> 02:29:35,960
Speaker 1: You just have to the threshold. But assuming it's just

2867
02:29:36,080 --> 02:29:38,440
Speaker 1: you're not on the road. An average day, you wake

2868
02:29:38,560 --> 02:29:42,480
Speaker 1: up when seven is oh, so you're living regular human

2869
02:29:42,560 --> 02:29:45,640
Speaker 1: being that me. I'm up late. I'm I'm more creative

2870
02:29:45,640 --> 02:29:48,120
Speaker 1: at night. I have a dog and the dog has

2871
02:29:48,160 --> 02:29:49,760
Speaker 1: to get out, and I'm not a dog person. I'm

2872
02:29:49,800 --> 02:29:52,040
Speaker 1: in service to my dog and the dog you have

2873
02:29:52,080 --> 02:29:54,360
Speaker 1: to get up at seven are seventh? Their t is?

2874
02:29:54,480 --> 02:29:56,800
Speaker 1: You know? And are you the type person who will

2875
02:29:56,840 --> 02:29:59,200
Speaker 1: go out to breakfast with friends or you are not

2876
02:29:59,320 --> 02:30:02,000
Speaker 1: going to write first friends? Okay, but do you do it? Yes?

2877
02:30:02,520 --> 02:30:05,680
Speaker 1: Of course, So you're not You're You're a people person.

2878
02:30:05,720 --> 02:30:08,320
Speaker 1: You're not a loner. I am very much a people person.

2879
02:30:08,560 --> 02:30:11,560
Speaker 1: I love people and I'm fascinated by them. But I'm

2880
02:30:11,560 --> 02:30:14,400
Speaker 1: also a misanthrope. So again, here you've got this duality

2881
02:30:14,480 --> 02:30:17,320
Speaker 1: that exists in most human beings, Like I am really

2882
02:30:17,440 --> 02:30:21,959
Speaker 1: fascinated and genuinely interested in anyone I meet, and I'm

2883
02:30:22,000 --> 02:30:25,720
Speaker 1: open to engaging with them. Okay, you can meet them once.

2884
02:30:26,879 --> 02:30:28,760
Speaker 1: Do you want to see them again? It depends how

2885
02:30:28,800 --> 02:30:31,720
Speaker 1: great they are right exactly? Or do you find bore bob?

2886
02:30:31,800 --> 02:30:33,640
Speaker 1: But I have no interest in seeing them. There are

2887
02:30:33,680 --> 02:30:35,360
Speaker 1: a lot of people I find. You know, everybody's got

2888
02:30:35,400 --> 02:30:37,760
Speaker 1: a fascinating story. You can hear it once, but there

2889
02:30:37,800 --> 02:30:39,480
Speaker 1: are other people. Every time you hang with them, they

2890
02:30:39,520 --> 02:30:41,960
Speaker 1: tell the same story, and it's like, you know, I

2891
02:30:42,040 --> 02:30:43,560
Speaker 1: have no I I bump them and into one thing,

2892
02:30:43,720 --> 02:30:45,280
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to make plans with them. No,

2893
02:30:45,520 --> 02:30:47,720
Speaker 1: of course, not I mean, that's how you select the

2894
02:30:47,760 --> 02:30:49,920
Speaker 1: people in your life. But it also makes me feel

2895
02:30:49,959 --> 02:30:53,920
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, I don't view myself as the average person.

2896
02:30:54,240 --> 02:30:55,800
Speaker 1: I don't know what they can even say this, Maybe

2897
02:30:55,840 --> 02:30:58,240
Speaker 1: it's out of date. Average person is getting up in

2898
02:30:58,280 --> 02:31:01,160
Speaker 1: the morning and going to a job. They're seeing people

2899
02:31:01,240 --> 02:31:04,080
Speaker 1: all the time at the job. It is wearing them out,

2900
02:31:04,520 --> 02:31:07,400
Speaker 1: and they come home and they want to relax. They

2901
02:31:07,520 --> 02:31:09,600
Speaker 1: maybe have a drink, have a smoke, watch TV, and

2902
02:31:09,640 --> 02:31:11,680
Speaker 1: get up and do it again. And on the weekends

2903
02:31:11,720 --> 02:31:13,320
Speaker 1: they'll go out to dinner, I'll go out to a show.

2904
02:31:13,680 --> 02:31:17,000
Speaker 1: They'll cut loose. Okay where this someone once made a

2905
02:31:17,000 --> 02:31:19,200
Speaker 1: great line? You know, the people who party hardest on

2906
02:31:19,280 --> 02:31:23,440
Speaker 1: these conventions are not the music business people because these

2907
02:31:23,480 --> 02:31:25,520
Speaker 1: other people it's one time of year. You got a Vegas.

2908
02:31:25,560 --> 02:31:27,400
Speaker 1: These people out of control where the music. But you

2909
02:31:27,440 --> 02:31:29,959
Speaker 1: can think you can party every night, So why shouldn't

2910
02:31:29,959 --> 02:31:33,440
Speaker 1: be out of control tonight? So my question is are

2911
02:31:33,520 --> 02:31:35,680
Speaker 1: you since you don't have when you're not on the road,

2912
02:31:35,720 --> 02:31:40,360
Speaker 1: you're not recording. Uh, are you in the house sort

2913
02:31:40,400 --> 02:31:43,720
Speaker 1: of bouncing off the walls? So how are you occupying

2914
02:31:43,800 --> 02:31:47,320
Speaker 1: your time? That's a good question. I mean, I walk

2915
02:31:47,480 --> 02:31:50,560
Speaker 1: my dog alt, I go to galleries, I read a lot,

2916
02:31:50,720 --> 02:31:54,200
Speaker 1: I love going to movies, I love dinner with friends.

2917
02:31:54,440 --> 02:31:56,360
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a million and one thing. So in

2918
02:31:56,400 --> 02:31:59,520
Speaker 1: the average, in the average week, how many times in

2919
02:31:59,560 --> 02:32:01,320
Speaker 1: a week do you go to breakfast with friends? Go

2920
02:32:01,360 --> 02:32:06,080
Speaker 1: to dinner with friends? You don't no idea. I'm you know,

2921
02:32:06,320 --> 02:32:09,359
Speaker 1: trying to say, is you know you sound very social,

2922
02:32:09,760 --> 02:32:11,760
Speaker 1: So therefore when I hear that you about your frustration,

2923
02:32:11,800 --> 02:32:14,320
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure it out, you know, And

2924
02:32:14,440 --> 02:32:16,160
Speaker 1: you say you're a missing thrope? Are you the type

2925
02:32:16,200 --> 02:32:18,000
Speaker 1: of person who really you know, you go when you

2926
02:32:18,080 --> 02:32:20,880
Speaker 1: have a good time. But are you mostly alone or

2927
02:32:20,920 --> 02:32:23,959
Speaker 1: you're mostly hanging? I don't even know how to answer

2928
02:32:24,040 --> 02:32:26,520
Speaker 1: this question. This is amazing. I have absolutely no idea.

2929
02:32:26,680 --> 02:32:29,520
Speaker 1: This is so peculiar to me that I'm not sure

2930
02:32:29,920 --> 02:32:32,080
Speaker 1: to be honest. I mean, I'm both shy and I'm

2931
02:32:32,120 --> 02:32:35,440
Speaker 1: both gregadious. I both love people and I hate them.

2932
02:32:35,920 --> 02:32:38,320
Speaker 1: If I had my brothers, I'd spend my whole life

2933
02:32:38,360 --> 02:32:42,480
Speaker 1: with my talk. Okay, So if you're home alone, I'm happy.

2934
02:32:42,720 --> 02:32:45,800
Speaker 1: You're a happy pig and ship Okay, and you're married

2935
02:32:45,879 --> 02:32:47,840
Speaker 1: At this point, they've been married for eight years. What

2936
02:32:47,959 --> 02:32:50,359
Speaker 1: did your husband do for a living. He's a music producer,

2937
02:32:50,920 --> 02:32:53,760
Speaker 1: music producer. We could look this up online. So what

2938
02:32:54,000 --> 02:32:58,080
Speaker 1: what what does he actually do? Well? He also works

2939
02:32:58,160 --> 02:33:01,280
Speaker 1: with my bands, he's like our engineer, right, And he

2940
02:33:01,400 --> 02:33:05,640
Speaker 1: also produces bands on his own. So if he's producing

2941
02:33:05,720 --> 02:33:07,360
Speaker 1: bands on his own, is he tend to be in

2942
02:33:07,560 --> 02:33:10,080
Speaker 1: town with you? In Los Angeles or out of town?

2943
02:33:11,520 --> 02:33:13,520
Speaker 1: All of the above? And if you go on the road,

2944
02:33:13,560 --> 02:33:15,280
Speaker 1: does he go with you on the road? Yes, he does,

2945
02:33:15,600 --> 02:33:18,760
Speaker 1: and he does the sound on the road. So you're together.

2946
02:33:19,000 --> 02:33:21,879
Speaker 1: We're together. And how did you meet him? We hired him?

2947
02:33:22,320 --> 02:33:24,760
Speaker 1: You hired him? And how he was our guitar? Roadif?

2948
02:33:26,800 --> 02:33:28,760
Speaker 1: How old is he relative to you? He's a year

2949
02:33:28,840 --> 02:33:31,200
Speaker 1: younger than okay, so basically the same age. How long

2950
02:33:31,240 --> 02:33:33,879
Speaker 1: did it became a romance? Oh? Years and years and years,

2951
02:33:33,920 --> 02:33:36,040
Speaker 1: years and years and years. He loved me from the

2952
02:33:36,240 --> 02:33:37,840
Speaker 1: day that he met me, he said. In fact, he

2953
02:33:38,000 --> 02:33:39,920
Speaker 1: said that he loved me before he met me because

2954
02:33:39,959 --> 02:33:42,280
Speaker 1: he'd heard me sing. And he used to listen to

2955
02:33:42,320 --> 02:33:44,240
Speaker 1: a garbage c D every night to go to sleep.

2956
02:33:44,400 --> 02:33:46,200
Speaker 1: Milk would send him to sleep every night. This was

2957
02:33:46,280 --> 02:33:48,440
Speaker 1: before we met. Then we met and I couldn't have

2958
02:33:48,440 --> 02:33:51,560
Speaker 1: been less interested in him. And but then over the

2959
02:33:51,640 --> 02:33:53,520
Speaker 1: years he became a really good friend. And then I

2960
02:33:53,560 --> 02:33:55,520
Speaker 1: started to notice that when he wasn't around, I didn't

2961
02:33:55,520 --> 02:33:59,760
Speaker 1: feel good. Really yeah, but he was, you know, carrying

2962
02:33:59,800 --> 02:34:03,640
Speaker 1: a was devoted to me. Okay, So what what was

2963
02:34:03,680 --> 02:34:06,000
Speaker 1: the transition? What made it happen? I mean I tell

2964
02:34:06,040 --> 02:34:07,600
Speaker 1: the story all the time and people don't believe me,

2965
02:34:07,680 --> 02:34:09,840
Speaker 1: but this is how superficial and cheap I am. So

2966
02:34:10,000 --> 02:34:12,800
Speaker 1: my makeup artist at the time, unbeknownst to me, had

2967
02:34:12,800 --> 02:34:15,440
Speaker 1: shaved his head because he had terrible hair, like thinning,

2968
02:34:15,840 --> 02:34:18,240
Speaker 1: long rocker hair, and she shaved it off. So we

2969
02:34:18,280 --> 02:34:21,040
Speaker 1: had a little buzz cut. And I came down. We

2970
02:34:21,160 --> 02:34:24,600
Speaker 1: were supporting I think Alanis Morissett, and we came down

2971
02:34:24,640 --> 02:34:27,120
Speaker 1: in a bus down the ramp towards the stadium, and

2972
02:34:27,160 --> 02:34:29,280
Speaker 1: there was a super hot guy standing by the side

2973
02:34:29,280 --> 02:34:31,320
Speaker 1: of the bus and I was like, he's hot. Oh ship,

2974
02:34:31,440 --> 02:34:36,240
Speaker 1: that's Billy Bush there. And began the romance. Okay, and

2975
02:34:36,520 --> 02:34:38,640
Speaker 1: so actually married how long eight years? How long was

2976
02:34:38,800 --> 02:34:45,840
Speaker 1: the romance going on? M sixteen years? Maybe a long time? Yeah,

2977
02:34:46,120 --> 02:34:49,520
Speaker 1: And now, uh, you were married once before I was,

2978
02:34:49,800 --> 02:34:53,680
Speaker 1: And what was that about Well, it was about a

2979
02:34:53,840 --> 02:34:56,680
Speaker 1: gorgeous person who I still miss and love very much,

2980
02:34:56,959 --> 02:35:03,560
Speaker 1: but we were pulled apart by extraneous circumstances. I start

2981
02:35:03,640 --> 02:35:06,920
Speaker 1: touring the world. And also I think I had rushed

2982
02:35:07,000 --> 02:35:10,200
Speaker 1: to his side because he was a paternal figure and

2983
02:35:10,280 --> 02:35:15,120
Speaker 1: I had been in a very destructive, sexually dangerous, abusive

2984
02:35:15,879 --> 02:35:22,039
Speaker 1: relationship until I met my first husband. So he kind

2985
02:35:22,080 --> 02:35:24,560
Speaker 1: of rescued you, Yes, he rescued And how did that end?

2986
02:35:25,440 --> 02:35:29,600
Speaker 1: It just ended in sadly, in me becoming successful and

2987
02:35:29,760 --> 02:35:31,680
Speaker 1: going on tour and we've never seen each other, and

2988
02:35:31,720 --> 02:35:35,800
Speaker 1: then the relationship just kind of deteriorated and in my

2989
02:35:35,920 --> 02:35:38,959
Speaker 1: great you don't have any children? Right? Oh god? No, okay,

2990
02:35:39,000 --> 02:35:43,040
Speaker 1: so that's a conscious thought. Yes, you always knew that

2991
02:35:43,120 --> 02:35:45,560
Speaker 1: you were never going to have children. No, I never

2992
02:35:45,920 --> 02:35:49,000
Speaker 1: knew that I wouldn't have children. But I never ached

2993
02:35:49,080 --> 02:35:50,920
Speaker 1: for them, like women talk a lot about aching in

2994
02:35:51,000 --> 02:35:53,560
Speaker 1: their wombs, and I would always be like, kind of

2995
02:35:53,640 --> 02:35:55,760
Speaker 1: like a dude looking at them blankly, like what does

2996
02:35:55,840 --> 02:35:57,880
Speaker 1: that mean? I don't even know where that is. I

2997
02:35:57,920 --> 02:36:00,440
Speaker 1: had no aching in my womb and no a longing

2998
02:36:00,560 --> 02:36:04,360
Speaker 1: for a child. Really, how about your husband? None? Either? Well,

2999
02:36:04,440 --> 02:36:06,000
Speaker 1: I felt the same way. I felt that I was

3000
02:36:06,120 --> 02:36:09,199
Speaker 1: living my own life and I didn't want to subjugate myself.

3001
02:36:09,720 --> 02:36:12,879
Speaker 1: But once I hit forty, I realized life was meaningless

3002
02:36:13,440 --> 02:36:16,000
Speaker 1: and I saw my sisters with their kids whatever, and

3003
02:36:16,080 --> 02:36:19,200
Speaker 1: I understood it at that point in time. But it's

3004
02:36:19,600 --> 02:36:22,560
Speaker 1: very much a different life when you don't have kids.

3005
02:36:22,600 --> 02:36:24,760
Speaker 1: I'm not complaining, but it's different. People say, oh, I'm

3006
02:36:24,760 --> 02:36:26,800
Speaker 1: turned onto this and that by kids. I'm not turned on.

3007
02:36:26,840 --> 02:36:30,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you know it doesn't happen to me. No,

3008
02:36:30,200 --> 02:36:34,280
Speaker 1: But I also don't believe one should live vicariously through

3009
02:36:34,320 --> 02:36:36,440
Speaker 1: your kids. I don't mean like I couldn't agree more.

3010
02:36:36,600 --> 02:36:39,880
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say, especially when it comes to musical trends.

3011
02:36:40,320 --> 02:36:41,840
Speaker 1: They'll be in the car and the kid will say, hey,

3012
02:36:41,920 --> 02:36:44,160
Speaker 1: put this on the radio something you would normally not

3013
02:36:44,400 --> 02:36:46,800
Speaker 1: listen to. My Yeah. I mean, there's billions of children

3014
02:36:46,840 --> 02:36:48,840
Speaker 1: in my life, thankfully, so it's not like I'm of

3015
02:36:48,959 --> 02:36:51,240
Speaker 1: contact with any kids or any new music or whatever.

3016
02:36:51,920 --> 02:36:55,040
Speaker 1: But for me personally, I think my mother was so

3017
02:36:55,240 --> 02:36:57,959
Speaker 1: devoted to me as a mom, like she was an orphan.

3018
02:36:58,080 --> 02:36:59,920
Speaker 1: Like my mom was had a crazy story. She was

3019
02:37:00,120 --> 02:37:03,680
Speaker 1: like an orphan child of a governess. And a butler

3020
02:37:03,800 --> 02:37:07,000
Speaker 1: in a stately home in Scotland, and the idea of

3021
02:37:07,120 --> 02:37:10,520
Speaker 1: her the mom having a child out of wedlock would

3022
02:37:10,520 --> 02:37:12,440
Speaker 1: have lost she would have lost her job and been

3023
02:37:12,680 --> 02:37:15,920
Speaker 1: you know, castigated. So they took the baby in a

3024
02:37:17,120 --> 02:37:20,600
Speaker 1: basket literally and dropped her off in an orphanage. And

3025
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:25,040
Speaker 1: she was reared in the in the institution of you

3026
02:37:25,120 --> 02:37:29,400
Speaker 1: know or orphanages until she was five years old. So

3027
02:37:30,840 --> 02:37:34,720
Speaker 1: family was really important to her, and she dedicated herself slavishly.

3028
02:37:35,160 --> 02:37:37,840
Speaker 1: One would say to her children, and I think I

3029
02:37:38,000 --> 02:37:39,920
Speaker 1: just grew up thinking, no way am I doing that.

3030
02:37:40,360 --> 02:37:44,520
Speaker 1: That is not I'm not doing that. We're going to

3031
02:37:44,560 --> 02:37:47,160
Speaker 1: pause for a moment. We joined this conversation with truly

3032
02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:54,119
Speaker 1: more of the band Garbage. This is Bob. I love

3033
02:37:54,200 --> 02:37:56,320
Speaker 1: talking to people getting their stories, much like I do

3034
02:37:56,440 --> 02:37:58,640
Speaker 1: on this podcast. For two name, I'll be talking to

3035
02:37:58,720 --> 02:38:00,320
Speaker 1: some of the most important people in the music in

3036
02:38:00,400 --> 02:38:03,400
Speaker 1: tech industries that my music media summit in Santa Barbara

3037
02:38:03,440 --> 02:38:05,440
Speaker 1: the last week in of April. I'd love to have

3038
02:38:05,520 --> 02:38:07,119
Speaker 1: you joined the event. It's going to be a great

3039
02:38:07,160 --> 02:38:10,560
Speaker 1: way to connect in person with these high profile individuals,

3040
02:38:10,680 --> 02:38:12,760
Speaker 1: learned how they made it in the future, direction of

3041
02:38:12,800 --> 02:38:16,000
Speaker 1: their industries. Go to Music Media Summit dot com for

3042
02:38:16,160 --> 02:38:20,080
Speaker 1: tickets and more information. Let's continue the conversation with the

3043
02:38:20,160 --> 02:38:23,960
Speaker 1: lead singer of the band Garbage, Shirley Manson. So for

3044
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:26,200
Speaker 1: the last six months we've been living through this me

3045
02:38:26,440 --> 02:38:31,039
Speaker 1: too moment. First question would be, you know we talked

3046
02:38:31,040 --> 02:38:33,959
Speaker 1: about with your first band, but have you experienced any

3047
02:38:34,040 --> 02:38:37,960
Speaker 1: of this sexism or sexual harassment? Yeah? Every woman that

3048
02:38:39,240 --> 02:38:43,360
Speaker 1: unless she's incredibly privileged. Now, on some level, you're very

3049
02:38:43,520 --> 02:38:47,160
Speaker 1: dynamic and very quick, but on some level, one level,

3050
02:38:47,440 --> 02:38:49,160
Speaker 1: some level, no, I'm gonna get to the other level.

3051
02:38:50,360 --> 02:38:54,320
Speaker 1: So on some level you're very dynamic and you're quick, okay,

3052
02:38:54,480 --> 02:38:58,000
Speaker 1: but you also tell stories of being shy and subservient.

3053
02:38:58,760 --> 02:39:03,280
Speaker 1: So where does this leave in these situations? Well, that's

3054
02:39:03,320 --> 02:39:06,080
Speaker 1: a really good question. I mean, it's peculiar. I don't

3055
02:39:06,120 --> 02:39:11,119
Speaker 1: think anyone who hasn't been physically touched unwanted in an

3056
02:39:11,160 --> 02:39:16,160
Speaker 1: adwanted fashion really can understand why it's difficult sometimes to

3057
02:39:16,360 --> 02:39:20,920
Speaker 1: use your voice in that situation. Um, I consider myself

3058
02:39:21,000 --> 02:39:27,120
Speaker 1: a very dominant, aggressive, articulate person, and I've had my

3059
02:39:27,200 --> 02:39:33,400
Speaker 1: body touched and have frozen as recently as last year. Uh,

3060
02:39:33,920 --> 02:39:37,080
Speaker 1: when you were to the degree you're comfortable. What happened

3061
02:39:37,160 --> 02:39:40,520
Speaker 1: last year? I was at a radio festival and we

3062
02:39:40,640 --> 02:39:44,840
Speaker 1: were meeting competition winners and we had there was a

3063
02:39:44,920 --> 02:39:47,440
Speaker 1: long line of people that we were just standing in

3064
02:39:47,520 --> 02:39:49,800
Speaker 1: front of a backdrop and having our photographs taken, and

3065
02:39:50,840 --> 02:39:54,000
Speaker 1: some dude moves in, stands beside me, puts his hand

3066
02:39:54,040 --> 02:39:55,960
Speaker 1: on my breast. He's got his arm around me and

3067
02:39:56,000 --> 02:39:57,920
Speaker 1: then puts his hand on my breast and I think, oh, wow,

3068
02:39:58,680 --> 02:40:00,920
Speaker 1: he's he's so nervous and I comfortable he has had

3069
02:40:00,959 --> 02:40:04,000
Speaker 1: on my breast. This is embarrassing, that's all right. And

3070
02:40:04,200 --> 02:40:06,200
Speaker 1: I tried to like shift and he just kept on

3071
02:40:06,320 --> 02:40:08,360
Speaker 1: grabbing me. And then eventually I put my own hand

3072
02:40:08,440 --> 02:40:11,520
Speaker 1: on his hand and pushed his hand to try and

3073
02:40:11,560 --> 02:40:13,440
Speaker 1: get him off my breast, and he would not let go,

3074
02:40:14,240 --> 02:40:16,120
Speaker 1: and eventually I managed to push his hand down to

3075
02:40:16,200 --> 02:40:18,800
Speaker 1: my waist and we took the photograph and I was

3076
02:40:18,920 --> 02:40:21,640
Speaker 1: frozen like a deer in the headlights, and he wandered

3077
02:40:21,680 --> 02:40:26,040
Speaker 1: off and I couldn't even look where he'd went, what

3078
02:40:26,200 --> 02:40:28,120
Speaker 1: direction he had gone, and I was just so my

3079
02:40:28,240 --> 02:40:30,280
Speaker 1: mind was so full of like wow, that dude just

3080
02:40:30,360 --> 02:40:33,480
Speaker 1: grab my tit in front of everybody. Now I'm not

3081
02:40:33,600 --> 02:40:35,880
Speaker 1: saying that's comparable to what a lot of women have

3082
02:40:36,000 --> 02:40:38,760
Speaker 1: experienced or some men, by the way, but it was

3083
02:40:38,879 --> 02:40:41,240
Speaker 1: unpleasant and I found it really upsetting, and I was

3084
02:40:41,360 --> 02:40:44,080
Speaker 1: angry at myself for not going dude and shout, you know,

3085
02:40:44,240 --> 02:40:47,320
Speaker 1: calling him out, like what are you doing? But I didn't,

3086
02:40:47,440 --> 02:40:50,279
Speaker 1: And so it gave me some insight into the process

3087
02:40:50,360 --> 02:40:53,600
Speaker 1: that occurs for so many women in situations where they

3088
02:40:53,680 --> 02:40:56,840
Speaker 1: just freeze and they can't push back, they can't shout,

3089
02:40:56,920 --> 02:41:00,320
Speaker 1: they can't fight back, they can't say anything. It's mad.

3090
02:41:01,280 --> 02:41:03,560
Speaker 1: So let's assume the same thing were to happen this summer.

3091
02:41:04,080 --> 02:41:05,960
Speaker 1: Do you think you would freeze again? I don't know,

3092
02:41:06,600 --> 02:41:09,840
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. That's something I don't think

3093
02:41:09,879 --> 02:41:12,480
Speaker 1: men understand. You See, It's like when you're a woman

3094
02:41:12,760 --> 02:41:16,640
Speaker 1: your entire life, when you walk out the house, you're

3095
02:41:16,680 --> 02:41:19,480
Speaker 1: aware that you could be hurt in some way, and

3096
02:41:19,600 --> 02:41:22,920
Speaker 1: men never have that experience, not really unless they're in warfare.

3097
02:41:23,400 --> 02:41:25,360
Speaker 1: You know, generally speaking, a man doesn't have to think

3098
02:41:25,400 --> 02:41:29,080
Speaker 1: about his physical safety. Women think about it all the time,

3099
02:41:29,400 --> 02:41:32,120
Speaker 1: and it's something that men, God bless them, just cannot

3100
02:41:32,320 --> 02:41:35,520
Speaker 1: quite connect to that idea of like that you know,

3101
02:41:35,800 --> 02:41:39,280
Speaker 1: you're walking down the street, you're nervous, there's some somebody

3102
02:41:39,360 --> 02:41:42,760
Speaker 1: whistles out your says something sexual to you. It's intimidating,

3103
02:41:42,800 --> 02:41:44,720
Speaker 1: it's frightening because you don't know where it can lead.

3104
02:41:45,480 --> 02:41:48,280
Speaker 1: You know, I was married to someone who did not

3105
02:41:48,400 --> 02:41:50,800
Speaker 1: have them as a guy. We've all been in places,

3106
02:41:51,000 --> 02:41:53,520
Speaker 1: we've hit on somebody that's kind of weird, kind of tache.

3107
02:41:53,560 --> 02:41:56,640
Speaker 1: We've even talked to a woman okay, and they very

3108
02:41:56,800 --> 02:41:59,880
Speaker 1: specifically send a signal it's a brush off. I don't

3109
02:42:00,000 --> 02:42:05,240
Speaker 1: want to talk to you, okay, And if you're a man, unfortunately,

3110
02:42:05,440 --> 02:42:08,600
Speaker 1: if someone doesn't give that signal, a lot of people

3111
02:42:08,720 --> 02:42:11,840
Speaker 1: but then see that as a green light unfortunately. So

3112
02:42:12,680 --> 02:42:15,400
Speaker 1: you fear as a woman, you feel you might get

3113
02:42:15,520 --> 02:42:19,960
Speaker 1: hurt to what degree? What behaviors doing you employ to

3114
02:42:20,120 --> 02:42:25,440
Speaker 1: make sure you don't get hurt? Well, I mean you're careful,

3115
02:42:25,840 --> 02:42:28,200
Speaker 1: you know, I've always been very careful. I don't walk

3116
02:42:28,280 --> 02:42:31,600
Speaker 1: down dark streets alone at night if I can possibly

3117
02:42:31,680 --> 02:42:33,840
Speaker 1: help it. If I am down in dark street at

3118
02:42:33,920 --> 02:42:35,760
Speaker 1: night by myself, I'm walking down the middle of the

3119
02:42:36,160 --> 02:42:38,600
Speaker 1: middle of the road, because it was going to take

3120
02:42:38,640 --> 02:42:40,640
Speaker 1: a further distance to drag me from one side to

3121
02:42:40,640 --> 02:42:43,840
Speaker 1: the other. I mean silly things like that. You know, um,

3122
02:42:44,240 --> 02:42:46,200
Speaker 1: I make it very clear and I'm very lucky and

3123
02:42:46,280 --> 02:42:49,640
Speaker 1: that I am not scared to say, dude, I'm not interested.

3124
02:42:50,200 --> 02:42:52,520
Speaker 1: You know, please go go back and join your friends

3125
02:42:52,680 --> 02:42:55,160
Speaker 1: or you know, I'm pretty clear. But not. But not

3126
02:42:55,240 --> 02:42:57,240
Speaker 1: all women are like that. And a lot of women

3127
02:42:57,280 --> 02:43:00,720
Speaker 1: have been conditioned to please men and a peace men

3128
02:43:01,080 --> 02:43:04,760
Speaker 1: and they don't They don't want to upset them or

3129
02:43:04,879 --> 02:43:09,360
Speaker 1: hurt their egos or or incite them, you know, to

3130
02:43:09,400 --> 02:43:12,080
Speaker 1: be aggressive. So there's a whole thing at play. I mean,

3131
02:43:12,280 --> 02:43:16,400
Speaker 1: I know we've all talked about this for some months now,

3132
02:43:16,600 --> 02:43:19,160
Speaker 1: and my only feeling about it all is we need

3133
02:43:19,240 --> 02:43:22,720
Speaker 1: to re educate our children, are boys and our girls.

3134
02:43:23,520 --> 02:43:25,240
Speaker 1: And what would that look like? Well, you know, it's

3135
02:43:25,360 --> 02:43:27,960
Speaker 1: it's for men. I think it's really confusing. You know,

3136
02:43:28,120 --> 02:43:32,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot there's there's a lot of of depicting

3137
02:43:32,840 --> 02:43:38,520
Speaker 1: men in movies, in TV, in literature, you know, where

3138
02:43:38,879 --> 02:43:43,760
Speaker 1: the pursuit is romanticized, where they're encouraged to push even

3139
02:43:43,800 --> 02:43:46,039
Speaker 1: when a woman says no, that you know that they

3140
02:43:46,200 --> 02:43:48,320
Speaker 1: learned that maybe if they push a little harder, they'll

3141
02:43:48,360 --> 02:43:50,880
Speaker 1: finally get what they want, she'll relent, you know. Blah

3142
02:43:50,959 --> 02:43:56,200
Speaker 1: blah blah. There's all this misconst like misguiding stuff out

3143
02:43:56,240 --> 02:43:58,440
Speaker 1: there about what it means to be a dude. And

3144
02:43:59,000 --> 02:44:01,400
Speaker 1: I just think we need to to change a little

3145
02:44:01,640 --> 02:44:03,600
Speaker 1: just I just think a few tweaks and the way

3146
02:44:03,680 --> 02:44:06,600
Speaker 1: we raise our children will will help men and women

3147
02:44:07,400 --> 02:44:11,640
Speaker 1: co exist a little more comfortably those look like. I

3148
02:44:11,840 --> 02:44:16,280
Speaker 1: think the great thing that I welcome the most right

3149
02:44:16,320 --> 02:44:19,240
Speaker 1: now is the breakdown of binary gender. I think that

3150
02:44:20,040 --> 02:44:22,680
Speaker 1: is a great start right there, where men are not

3151
02:44:22,959 --> 02:44:30,480
Speaker 1: expected to be you know, the the the one who

3152
02:44:31,680 --> 02:44:35,000
Speaker 1: they alpha yea, or they're not expected to be the

3153
02:44:35,720 --> 02:44:38,760
Speaker 1: predator and or the chaser or the one who always

3154
02:44:38,760 --> 02:44:40,440
Speaker 1: asked a woman out in a day where it becomes

3155
02:44:40,440 --> 02:44:43,920
Speaker 1: a little more iglitarian where men and women are. You know,

3156
02:44:43,959 --> 02:44:45,120
Speaker 1: a lot of the time when I was growing up

3157
02:44:45,120 --> 02:44:48,279
Speaker 1: in the seventies, women were just expected to wait, literally

3158
02:44:48,360 --> 02:44:52,600
Speaker 1: wait until a man asked her to dance, you know.

3159
02:44:52,720 --> 02:44:54,800
Speaker 1: So it all starts off at in primary school for us,

3160
02:44:54,840 --> 02:44:57,480
Speaker 1: you know, like when you're five, you're you're lined up

3161
02:44:57,520 --> 02:44:59,800
Speaker 1: against the wall. This was in the seventies in Scotland,

3162
02:44:59,800 --> 02:45:01,680
Speaker 1: were all the women were lined up against the wall

3163
02:45:02,000 --> 02:45:04,240
Speaker 1: and then the men or the boys were sent and

3164
02:45:04,280 --> 02:45:06,440
Speaker 1: I go choose your partner, and the man would the

3165
02:45:06,480 --> 02:45:08,720
Speaker 1: boy would choose whoever they wanted to dance with. And

3166
02:45:09,080 --> 02:45:13,200
Speaker 1: are you bringing back memories? Wow, that's really crazy. You know,

3167
02:45:13,240 --> 02:45:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm not healthy and not good and it starts right

3168
02:45:15,640 --> 02:45:20,279
Speaker 1: that early, you know. And I think boys are praised

3169
02:45:20,360 --> 02:45:23,440
Speaker 1: for being you know, good at sports and aggressive and

3170
02:45:23,800 --> 02:45:26,440
Speaker 1: and even violent, you know, and women are praised for

3171
02:45:26,520 --> 02:45:29,720
Speaker 1: being pretty and cute and small and just a little

3172
02:45:29,720 --> 02:45:31,720
Speaker 1: tweaks like that. You know, I think it could help

3173
02:45:32,040 --> 02:45:34,720
Speaker 1: change the Well, let's go back to your husband. You

3174
02:45:34,840 --> 02:45:36,360
Speaker 1: pull up in the bus. You see him with a

3175
02:45:36,400 --> 02:45:39,160
Speaker 1: buzz cut. You said that dude looks hot. You really

3176
02:45:39,200 --> 02:45:42,320
Speaker 1: recognize them very slowly. How do you change the signal

3177
02:45:42,400 --> 02:45:46,000
Speaker 1: you're sending to him? Well, these are my trade secrets.

3178
02:45:46,840 --> 02:45:49,360
Speaker 1: I don't serve them. You've already used them. You're getting

3179
02:45:49,360 --> 02:45:52,720
Speaker 1: you know, you're very happily married, healthy audience. No, no, no,

3180
02:45:52,879 --> 02:45:55,600
Speaker 1: that's that's my own game. That's my private game, for sure.

3181
02:45:55,720 --> 02:45:59,080
Speaker 1: I mean, how how you you let someone know? I

3182
02:45:59,120 --> 02:46:01,320
Speaker 1: mean I knew he would love me, of course, we've

3183
02:46:01,400 --> 02:46:04,600
Speaker 1: established I love you, bet you, so eventually I was

3184
02:46:04,640 --> 02:46:07,480
Speaker 1: just a bit more welcoming. You know, we'd spend time together,

3185
02:46:07,640 --> 02:46:14,080
Speaker 1: we'd looking you know, we just become really good friends. Okay,

3186
02:46:14,520 --> 02:46:17,440
Speaker 1: what advice would you give to someone where the other

3187
02:46:17,600 --> 02:46:22,440
Speaker 1: person's uh desires are not as clear? I have no

3188
02:46:22,520 --> 02:46:24,480
Speaker 1: advice to give, because I think it's different for every

3189
02:46:24,560 --> 02:46:27,680
Speaker 1: single person. That's the thing where there's no blanket rules there,

3190
02:46:27,720 --> 02:46:31,320
Speaker 1: because each man and each woman and each any any

3191
02:46:31,400 --> 02:46:34,080
Speaker 1: person of any gender, we're all made up so differently,

3192
02:46:34,160 --> 02:46:38,720
Speaker 1: and so what what is seen as a as um

3193
02:46:39,959 --> 02:46:43,720
Speaker 1: a dance between the two is so unique to each relationship.

3194
02:46:43,800 --> 02:46:46,480
Speaker 1: I think, you know, there's no blanket advice i'd give

3195
02:46:46,520 --> 02:46:49,000
Speaker 1: anyone for fear of that biting me in the ass.

3196
02:46:50,000 --> 02:46:51,480
Speaker 1: You sound like more of the type of person would

3197
02:46:51,480 --> 02:46:53,120
Speaker 1: give advice and then when they came back to it

3198
02:46:53,200 --> 02:46:54,280
Speaker 1: said it didn't work to well, you know, what the

3199
02:46:54,360 --> 02:46:56,640
Speaker 1: hell do I know that's true? I was? I mean,

3200
02:46:56,720 --> 02:46:59,120
Speaker 1: I I the older I get, the less advice. I

3201
02:46:59,160 --> 02:47:02,160
Speaker 1: want to get all the exact same way. Twenty years ago,

3202
02:47:02,480 --> 02:47:05,400
Speaker 1: I tell everybody how to live their lives. Now I'm

3203
02:47:05,440 --> 02:47:07,240
Speaker 1: not sure that I know what I'm talking about, and

3204
02:47:07,480 --> 02:47:09,160
Speaker 1: I know I have no idea what I'm telling. And

3205
02:47:09,240 --> 02:47:11,760
Speaker 1: they say, and they're not gonna listen to me. It's

3206
02:47:11,800 --> 02:47:16,800
Speaker 1: like why why ruined the relationship? But waste right now.

3207
02:47:16,920 --> 02:47:20,600
Speaker 1: The fantasy, the rock star fantasy, which aligns very much

3208
02:47:20,640 --> 02:47:22,959
Speaker 1: with the truth, is we have a guy who shy

3209
02:47:23,560 --> 02:47:25,680
Speaker 1: and he speaks to his guitar and he feels if

3210
02:47:25,720 --> 02:47:28,920
Speaker 1: I become successful musician, I will be able to have

3211
02:47:29,640 --> 02:47:33,160
Speaker 1: a girlfriend of sex, life, etcetera. That's men on the road.

3212
02:47:33,440 --> 02:47:37,720
Speaker 1: It is very different today in light of cell phone cameras, etcetera.

3213
02:47:38,040 --> 02:47:41,480
Speaker 1: But prior to that, the legend was relatively true. The

3214
02:47:41,560 --> 02:47:44,720
Speaker 1: men went on the road. There were groupies. As David

3215
02:47:44,800 --> 02:47:47,240
Speaker 1: Lee Roth said, I know on the road, and I

3216
02:47:47,280 --> 02:47:49,359
Speaker 1: can get laid every night of the week, not necessarily

3217
02:47:49,400 --> 02:47:51,080
Speaker 1: by whom I want to get laid by, but every

3218
02:47:51,200 --> 02:47:54,040
Speaker 1: night of the week. As a woman being on the road,

3219
02:47:55,200 --> 02:47:58,440
Speaker 1: What were your desires and your feelings in your own

3220
02:47:58,520 --> 02:48:02,480
Speaker 1: experience in this situation. I can remember, like you know,

3221
02:48:02,760 --> 02:48:05,400
Speaker 1: being like number one all over the world. I was

3222
02:48:05,520 --> 02:48:09,560
Speaker 1: all over like the coolest fashion magazines in the country.

3223
02:48:10,360 --> 02:48:15,039
Speaker 1: I was being lauded and applauded, and everything was tick

3224
02:48:15,120 --> 02:48:18,160
Speaker 1: tiboo from a professional standpoint. But I would go back

3225
02:48:18,200 --> 02:48:20,760
Speaker 1: to my hotel tell room by myself. Let's stop with

3226
02:48:21,120 --> 02:48:23,560
Speaker 1: what is tixie boo? Tick ty boo just means you

3227
02:48:23,640 --> 02:48:27,039
Speaker 1: know what tickt boo? Right, Okay, you can just hear

3228
02:48:27,080 --> 02:48:30,320
Speaker 1: from from hearing it. But did you go back to

3229
02:48:30,440 --> 02:48:33,240
Speaker 1: your hotel room happy? Or did you say, god, I'm

3230
02:48:33,240 --> 02:48:35,160
Speaker 1: on the cover every magazine here I am alone. I

3231
02:48:35,200 --> 02:48:37,160
Speaker 1: probably went home back to my hotel room. How to work?

3232
02:48:38,520 --> 02:48:42,400
Speaker 1: There is nobody around, you know, but I have to

3233
02:48:42,520 --> 02:48:46,440
Speaker 1: believe being that famous, invisible men would try to make

3234
02:48:46,520 --> 02:48:51,680
Speaker 1: themselves available. No, no, men were terrified of me. Absolutely.

3235
02:48:52,720 --> 02:48:55,400
Speaker 1: You're a band on the road, which means you're going

3236
02:48:55,520 --> 02:48:58,200
Speaker 1: to concert halls, you're going to radio stations. There's a

3237
02:48:58,360 --> 02:49:02,120
Speaker 1: lot of men there. One of those men starts not

3238
02:49:02,560 --> 02:49:08,760
Speaker 1: what not once? I never got hit home once. Wow. Again,

3239
02:49:08,840 --> 02:49:11,240
Speaker 1: that's what I mean about the conditioning of the man too,

3240
02:49:11,400 --> 02:49:15,120
Speaker 1: how because men want to be the powerful alpha, and

3241
02:49:15,240 --> 02:49:18,160
Speaker 1: if you're the powerful alpha, that changes the dynamic. And

3242
02:49:18,480 --> 02:49:21,000
Speaker 1: no man really has been taught to deal with that.

3243
02:49:21,280 --> 02:49:24,480
Speaker 1: Not many men, I should say, again sweeping generalizations, but

3244
02:49:24,560 --> 02:49:27,000
Speaker 1: the majority of men don't know how to deal with

3245
02:49:27,120 --> 02:49:30,640
Speaker 1: a woman who's more successful than they are, and you know,

3246
02:49:30,760 --> 02:49:33,640
Speaker 1: has has has a credit card, and can get herself

3247
02:49:33,720 --> 02:49:35,840
Speaker 1: out of any situation. She doesn't need the night in

3248
02:49:35,879 --> 02:49:38,440
Speaker 1: Shining Armor to come save her. They don't know what

3249
02:49:38,560 --> 02:49:41,440
Speaker 1: to do with that. In your marriage, are you the one?

3250
02:49:41,640 --> 02:49:44,320
Speaker 1: Do you wear the pants and the family so to speak? No,

3251
02:49:44,680 --> 02:49:48,760
Speaker 1: I actually we have a pretty balanced So you decide

3252
02:49:48,760 --> 02:49:51,000
Speaker 1: you're going to go to dinner, who chooses the restaurant

3253
02:49:51,520 --> 02:49:54,120
Speaker 1: changes every day? Okay, So I mean I'm not being funny,

3254
02:49:54,120 --> 02:49:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm not being flippant. I was interress with you. So

3255
02:49:56,240 --> 02:49:59,240
Speaker 1: it's balanced in the relationship balance. So once you get

3256
02:49:59,360 --> 02:50:02,400
Speaker 1: over the thre shold, you're willing to be equal to

3257
02:50:02,520 --> 02:50:05,280
Speaker 1: the man as opposed to be dominant with the man. Well,

3258
02:50:05,320 --> 02:50:07,680
Speaker 1: I'll be dominant if I feel like this situation is

3259
02:50:07,760 --> 02:50:10,360
Speaker 1: not being taken care of, of course, that's that's something different.

3260
02:50:10,840 --> 02:50:13,680
Speaker 1: So if we go back to this situation, you're on

3261
02:50:13,800 --> 02:50:19,240
Speaker 1: top of the world, you're and there are no um

3262
02:50:20,959 --> 02:50:27,240
Speaker 1: boyfriends at the time, do you start to hit on men? Well,

3263
02:50:27,280 --> 02:50:29,680
Speaker 1: that's a good question. I don't know. Some people say

3264
02:50:29,760 --> 02:50:32,400
Speaker 1: you're you're flirting out rageously with him, and I'm like, no,

3265
02:50:32,520 --> 02:50:35,640
Speaker 1: I wasn't. Well, there's one thing to flirt outrageously and

3266
02:50:35,720 --> 02:50:37,880
Speaker 1: say I'm having fun, but I would never left this

3267
02:50:37,959 --> 02:50:40,000
Speaker 1: guy in my hotel room. There's another thing to say,

3268
02:50:40,000 --> 02:50:42,360
Speaker 1: I'm having fun if the guy is fun, and it

3269
02:50:42,440 --> 02:50:45,920
Speaker 1: might go somewhere. To be honest, I'm no, I can't.

3270
02:50:46,120 --> 02:50:48,200
Speaker 1: I don't really have any memories of meeting somebody that

3271
02:50:48,320 --> 02:50:53,080
Speaker 1: was really interested in so because the pickens were slim

3272
02:50:53,200 --> 02:50:57,440
Speaker 1: or your standards, I'm slim and my standards were high.

3273
02:50:58,080 --> 02:51:00,320
Speaker 1: To be honest, and again, I'm signing like a sort

3274
02:51:00,360 --> 02:51:04,840
Speaker 1: of a sort of old maid in that I have

3275
02:51:05,080 --> 02:51:08,320
Speaker 1: never wanted to just have sex with someone just to

3276
02:51:08,400 --> 02:51:12,120
Speaker 1: have sex, because I just think, statistically wise, there's very

3277
02:51:12,160 --> 02:51:14,280
Speaker 1: few people that are going to make my experience worth it.

3278
02:51:14,840 --> 02:51:18,760
Speaker 1: So in general, I'm attracted to the brain first, and

3279
02:51:18,840 --> 02:51:22,119
Speaker 1: then then then I'm like, okay, sex could be interesting,

3280
02:51:22,280 --> 02:51:25,520
Speaker 1: let's see where this goes. But it's usually brain first.

3281
02:51:25,560 --> 02:51:27,320
Speaker 1: I'm never like, oh he's hot, I'm going to like

3282
02:51:27,440 --> 02:51:29,760
Speaker 1: go go back to my own you know. That's you know,

3283
02:51:29,920 --> 02:51:32,920
Speaker 1: in my limited experience. That's women feel the same way.

3284
02:51:33,440 --> 02:51:37,120
Speaker 1: There there's millions of women that I know who are

3285
02:51:37,240 --> 02:51:40,440
Speaker 1: who will fox somebody for just sex. Millions of them,

3286
02:51:40,720 --> 02:51:43,560
Speaker 1: I think so, But isn't that they're the lower percentage.

3287
02:51:44,200 --> 02:51:47,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, Actually, I would challenge that idea. I

3288
02:51:47,400 --> 02:51:49,600
Speaker 1: think that's what we've been led to believe. I feel

3289
02:51:49,600 --> 02:51:54,320
Speaker 1: like that's necessarily reality. It's like affairs, you know, supposedly,

3290
02:51:54,680 --> 02:51:56,600
Speaker 1: you know, more women are having an affairs than men.

3291
02:51:57,440 --> 02:52:00,520
Speaker 1: So what does that tell you? I think you know

3292
02:52:00,600 --> 02:52:03,920
Speaker 1: what it tells you. I know I'm only do me

3293
02:52:04,000 --> 02:52:06,240
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. Put myself on the ground a little bit more.

3294
02:52:06,480 --> 02:52:08,040
Speaker 1: I think it'll do a great degree. That to men

3295
02:52:08,080 --> 02:52:10,800
Speaker 1: who are not u servicing is a terrible world. I

3296
02:52:10,840 --> 02:52:14,120
Speaker 1: don't mean in terms of sexual stuff, but they're not

3297
02:52:14,240 --> 02:52:18,160
Speaker 1: paying attention to the woman, and the woman has opportunities. Well,

3298
02:52:18,200 --> 02:52:21,640
Speaker 1: women are finding opportunities for themselves and and and as

3299
02:52:21,720 --> 02:52:24,040
Speaker 1: they get older, they get better at doing that, and

3300
02:52:24,200 --> 02:52:26,800
Speaker 1: then it seems lose their confidence. It's a sort of

3301
02:52:26,879 --> 02:52:30,640
Speaker 1: flip of the way we are that we developed that,

3302
02:52:30,720 --> 02:52:32,959
Speaker 1: the way we educate. I think women as they get older,

3303
02:52:33,040 --> 02:52:35,120
Speaker 1: get smarter, and they're like, oh wait a minute, what

3304
02:52:35,280 --> 02:52:37,880
Speaker 1: a call? And this has been you know, and men

3305
02:52:38,240 --> 02:52:42,160
Speaker 1: suddenly realize, oh, I'm not quite the dominant gorgeous stud

3306
02:52:42,240 --> 02:52:44,800
Speaker 1: I thought I was. Well, if their confidence drops, women's

3307
02:52:44,800 --> 02:52:49,280
Speaker 1: confidence rises, and so there you have men break up

3308
02:52:49,680 --> 02:52:51,560
Speaker 1: and they go hang with their budge and they watch

3309
02:52:51,879 --> 02:52:54,360
Speaker 1: ESPN and they drink beer and they don't even talk

3310
02:52:54,360 --> 02:52:57,720
Speaker 1: about it. Women women don't. Women rally around each other

3311
02:52:57,920 --> 02:53:00,360
Speaker 1: and can live without a man. It's the men who

3312
02:53:00,400 --> 02:53:03,520
Speaker 1: are That's right, motherfucker's exactly. But that's the men who

3313
02:53:03,560 --> 02:53:05,520
Speaker 1: were weak. They don't want to admit it. No, it's

3314
02:53:05,560 --> 02:53:08,400
Speaker 1: not that they're weak. I mean, I think again, they're

3315
02:53:08,480 --> 02:53:11,200
Speaker 1: just not given the tools. They're not educated, they're not

3316
02:53:11,600 --> 02:53:14,160
Speaker 1: shown how to age, they're not shown how to live

3317
02:53:14,520 --> 02:53:18,600
Speaker 1: and have bigger women are taught how to survive in

3318
02:53:18,720 --> 02:53:21,920
Speaker 1: ways that men aren't, and vice versa. You know. So

3319
02:53:22,080 --> 02:53:23,360
Speaker 1: this is what I'm talking about goes back to what

3320
02:53:23,400 --> 02:53:25,279
Speaker 1: I'm saying earlier. We need to change the way we educated.

3321
02:53:25,640 --> 02:53:28,880
Speaker 1: We can all have happy health. I agree with you,

3322
02:53:29,680 --> 02:53:32,520
Speaker 1: better taught to go, I'll be hunters. But that's about it.

3323
02:53:33,760 --> 02:53:35,480
Speaker 1: You know. It's funny you should say that because I

3324
02:53:35,720 --> 02:53:39,560
Speaker 1: suddenly had this sort of realization very recently. I was

3325
02:53:39,640 --> 02:53:42,880
Speaker 1: watching a TV show and it was about the Vikings,

3326
02:53:43,000 --> 02:53:45,680
Speaker 1: and and men were getting sent off to you know,

3327
02:53:45,800 --> 02:53:48,440
Speaker 1: to fight, and it was brutal, and I was like, God,

3328
02:53:48,440 --> 02:53:50,480
Speaker 1: I think those those times, it must have been horrendous.

3329
02:53:50,480 --> 02:53:51,800
Speaker 1: And then it made me think of all the men

3330
02:53:51,879 --> 02:53:54,480
Speaker 1: that get sent off to this day into war. And

3331
02:53:54,600 --> 02:53:58,520
Speaker 1: men are sort of like they are educated to to

3332
02:53:59,200 --> 02:54:01,320
Speaker 1: shut something off from themselves so that they will be

3333
02:54:01,400 --> 02:54:03,280
Speaker 1: willing to go and fight for their countries, you know,

3334
02:54:03,480 --> 02:54:07,080
Speaker 1: and get into these terrifying situations that never really happens

3335
02:54:07,120 --> 02:54:10,440
Speaker 1: to women. Not really again sweeping generalizations. There's plenty of

3336
02:54:10,440 --> 02:54:13,840
Speaker 1: women in the services and and so on, but you know,

3337
02:54:14,720 --> 02:54:17,320
Speaker 1: sort of over the last few centuries, men have been

3338
02:54:18,040 --> 02:54:20,520
Speaker 1: taught a certain way so that they will mindlessly go

3339
02:54:20,640 --> 02:54:23,880
Speaker 1: in and and and fight to their deaths. And and

3340
02:54:24,040 --> 02:54:27,080
Speaker 1: we that that society has changed slightly since then. And

3341
02:54:27,320 --> 02:54:29,080
Speaker 1: think it's also changed because I grew up in an

3342
02:54:29,080 --> 02:54:31,800
Speaker 1: era of a draft where it kind of crossed classes,

3343
02:54:32,040 --> 02:54:34,760
Speaker 1: where now it's an all volunteer army where the educating

3344
02:54:34,840 --> 02:54:39,000
Speaker 1: which tend not to go. Okay, But you've traveled around

3345
02:54:39,040 --> 02:54:41,920
Speaker 1: the world, where's the best or most exciting place, her

3346
02:54:41,959 --> 02:54:44,360
Speaker 1: favorite place you've been? Well, again, I don't believe in best.

3347
02:54:44,480 --> 02:54:47,600
Speaker 1: To be honest, I don't I really really fight that

3348
02:54:47,720 --> 02:54:50,600
Speaker 1: idea of all every fiber of my being, because like

3349
02:54:50,680 --> 02:54:52,760
Speaker 1: I come from a family where my dad marks everything

3350
02:54:52,800 --> 02:54:55,760
Speaker 1: out of ten. It drives me insane. To me, I

3351
02:54:55,840 --> 02:54:59,840
Speaker 1: feel like life is always surprising. You can go like

3352
02:55:00,000 --> 02:55:03,400
Speaker 1: you could go to Paris and have a dreadful experience.

3353
02:55:03,520 --> 02:55:06,879
Speaker 1: Hard to imagine, of course, So when you say what's

3354
02:55:06,920 --> 02:55:09,480
Speaker 1: the best, it's just what I guess is the most

3355
02:55:09,600 --> 02:55:12,520
Speaker 1: enjoyable on any given day. Yeah, and everywhere I go

3356
02:55:12,640 --> 02:55:15,640
Speaker 1: as a musician, and I've traveled almost everywhere at this point,

3357
02:55:16,320 --> 02:55:19,640
Speaker 1: I always managed to have an extraordinary, unique experience. And

3358
02:55:19,760 --> 02:55:25,160
Speaker 1: even if sometimes it's fraught with difficulty or there's an unpleasantry, overall,

3359
02:55:25,280 --> 02:55:28,640
Speaker 1: I just find everywhere I go fascinating. It's and travel

3360
02:55:28,800 --> 02:55:31,800
Speaker 1: has been the greatest privilege of my entire life. To

3361
02:55:31,959 --> 02:55:34,800
Speaker 1: go to the cities, to countries and see how other

3362
02:55:34,840 --> 02:55:40,080
Speaker 1: people live, how they think, is really really fascinating, endlessly

3363
02:55:40,160 --> 02:55:42,760
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. Well, I have a friend who was

3364
02:55:42,879 --> 02:55:46,240
Speaker 1: the photographer for Led Zeppelin, and he says, I've been

3365
02:55:46,280 --> 02:55:49,080
Speaker 1: around the world and I've seen nothing. So are you

3366
02:55:49,160 --> 02:55:51,600
Speaker 1: the type then that he's a fool. Of course, my

3367
02:55:51,720 --> 02:55:54,360
Speaker 1: question is he also was staying up all night developing

3368
02:55:54,400 --> 02:55:56,879
Speaker 1: film in the film era, so the band could wake

3369
02:55:56,959 --> 02:55:58,920
Speaker 1: up and see the photos from the night before, so

3370
02:55:58,959 --> 02:56:00,720
Speaker 1: it wasn't totally his fault. But there are a lot

3371
02:56:00,800 --> 02:56:03,600
Speaker 1: of people they go, they go from the bus to

3372
02:56:03,680 --> 02:56:05,680
Speaker 1: the hotel to the gig, and they don't really see anything.

3373
02:56:05,920 --> 02:56:08,000
Speaker 1: Are you the type of person who takes advantage in

3374
02:56:08,040 --> 02:56:10,959
Speaker 1: these very I try. I try always to get up early,

3375
02:56:11,040 --> 02:56:13,920
Speaker 1: like you know, We'll have traveled over you know, from

3376
02:56:14,200 --> 02:56:17,199
Speaker 1: I don't know New York to to South after Cape

3377
02:56:17,240 --> 02:56:19,800
Speaker 1: Town for a random example, and we've had no sleep,

3378
02:56:19,840 --> 02:56:22,160
Speaker 1: but I'll still get up after two hours to go

3379
02:56:22,520 --> 02:56:24,360
Speaker 1: on safari because I know this will never happen to

3380
02:56:24,400 --> 02:56:26,680
Speaker 1: me again. You know. We get to Istanbul, same thing,

3381
02:56:26,760 --> 02:56:28,720
Speaker 1: We've been traveling all night, but you get the opportunity

3382
02:56:28,720 --> 02:56:30,080
Speaker 1: to go to the Blue Mosque, you know, and have

3383
02:56:30,240 --> 02:56:34,000
Speaker 1: your mind blown. It's just I feel it's really important,

3384
02:56:34,400 --> 02:56:37,880
Speaker 1: you know too, to take advantage of those moments where

3385
02:56:37,959 --> 02:56:41,959
Speaker 1: you really get shown so much and it does shift

3386
02:56:42,040 --> 02:56:45,320
Speaker 1: your perspective so much. Absolutely. One of the problems you

3387
02:56:45,360 --> 02:56:48,120
Speaker 1: know with America is people haven't been anywhere and they

3388
02:56:48,120 --> 02:56:50,680
Speaker 1: think it's the greatest. I mean talk very minor things.

3389
02:56:51,040 --> 02:56:54,320
Speaker 1: You go to a European or you know, UK, it's

3390
02:56:54,360 --> 02:56:56,760
Speaker 1: finally coming to America. They have the dual flush toilet.

3391
02:56:57,080 --> 02:57:01,000
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a good idea. Okay, they just recently

3392
02:57:01,040 --> 02:57:03,920
Speaker 1: come to America where they can change the price of

3393
02:57:04,000 --> 02:57:08,720
Speaker 1: the gas electronically. These are not major things, but everybody

3394
02:57:08,760 --> 02:57:10,800
Speaker 1: in the United States give its Oh where we are,

3395
02:57:11,160 --> 02:57:13,560
Speaker 1: it couldn't be any better where. It's much better in

3396
02:57:13,600 --> 02:57:18,400
Speaker 1: many other places, of course. But then there's also incredibly beautiful,

3397
02:57:18,720 --> 02:57:24,120
Speaker 1: precious things about the US, which you know, for me

3398
02:57:24,240 --> 02:57:27,360
Speaker 1: as an immigrant, you know, coming here, my entire career

3399
02:57:27,440 --> 02:57:29,680
Speaker 1: is down to America. Like I will never forget that.

3400
02:57:29,800 --> 02:57:34,000
Speaker 1: I have deep, deep love for this country. And a

3401
02:57:34,120 --> 02:57:36,200
Speaker 1: lot of people in the rest of the world take

3402
02:57:36,320 --> 02:57:39,200
Speaker 1: swings of America for a lot of different reasons, you know.

3403
02:57:39,480 --> 02:57:43,119
Speaker 1: But I always describe America as being in a really

3404
02:57:43,160 --> 02:57:45,440
Speaker 1: innocent like everybody's like, no, it's just vulgar. No, it's

3405
02:57:45,480 --> 02:57:50,440
Speaker 1: not vulgar. It's innocent because what of the population has

3406
02:57:50,520 --> 02:57:53,040
Speaker 1: never traversed outside the national boundaries. And like you say,

3407
02:57:54,000 --> 02:57:56,640
Speaker 1: everyone believes that they're the best in America, that they've

3408
02:57:56,680 --> 02:57:59,080
Speaker 1: got the best country, and and you know, one would

3409
02:57:59,120 --> 02:58:01,920
Speaker 1: argue that's not the anymore, you know, and and that

3410
02:58:02,480 --> 02:58:05,840
Speaker 1: is a great sadness. But also hey, welcome to the

3411
02:58:05,920 --> 02:58:08,120
Speaker 1: rest of the world. We're exactly We're all the same,

3412
02:58:08,200 --> 02:58:11,000
Speaker 1: We're just all trying to figure everything out. And um,

3413
02:58:11,480 --> 02:58:15,160
Speaker 1: I think that what's what is both awful about the Internet,

3414
02:58:15,360 --> 02:58:17,640
Speaker 1: but what's also so great about it is it will

3415
02:58:18,040 --> 02:58:20,680
Speaker 1: and it is slowly impacting America and changing the way

3416
02:58:20,720 --> 02:58:24,240
Speaker 1: people think, and everyone's becoming a bit more educated about

3417
02:58:24,280 --> 02:58:26,360
Speaker 1: other ways of life. It doesn't feel like that right

3418
02:58:26,440 --> 02:58:29,760
Speaker 1: now for obvious reasons, but I think ultimately over the

3419
02:58:29,840 --> 02:58:33,000
Speaker 1: next thirty, forty, fifty years whatever, that America is going

3420
02:58:33,080 --> 02:58:36,600
Speaker 1: to change all for the better. Now, in the thirty

3421
02:58:37,879 --> 02:58:40,800
Speaker 1: years you have left, what would you like to accomplish

3422
02:58:40,959 --> 02:58:44,400
Speaker 1: your do I want to continue to travel as much

3423
02:58:44,440 --> 02:58:48,640
Speaker 1: as possible, That is my biggest desire. And not to

3424
02:58:48,920 --> 02:58:52,520
Speaker 1: lose my curiosity. I want to remain curious if and

3425
02:58:52,840 --> 02:58:57,240
Speaker 1: to keep and to try and nurture courage. I think

3426
02:58:57,720 --> 02:59:01,440
Speaker 1: that what looks like that I will continue to try

3427
02:59:01,600 --> 02:59:05,279
Speaker 1: new things that I will try and and meet people

3428
02:59:06,440 --> 02:59:09,879
Speaker 1: and without judgment, you know, and try and listen, try,

3429
02:59:09,959 --> 02:59:13,080
Speaker 1: and I want to be a better listener. That's that's

3430
02:59:13,080 --> 02:59:15,120
Speaker 1: a big thing for me. I like, I want to

3431
02:59:15,400 --> 02:59:18,280
Speaker 1: be in service rather than serving myself. You know what.

3432
02:59:18,320 --> 02:59:20,600
Speaker 1: I'm in a in distribart. I've done nothing but served

3433
02:59:20,600 --> 02:59:23,680
Speaker 1: myself for twenty odd years, you know, and I want

3434
02:59:23,720 --> 02:59:26,920
Speaker 1: to change that as much as possible as my life progresses.

3435
02:59:27,800 --> 02:59:30,640
Speaker 1: I want to be in service. Okay, I call you

3436
02:59:30,840 --> 02:59:33,040
Speaker 1: up or I text you, and I say, let's go

3437
02:59:33,160 --> 02:59:37,320
Speaker 1: to I need to write to there. No, no, no, uh,

3438
02:59:38,200 --> 02:59:39,440
Speaker 1: we're gonna go. I want to take you to this

3439
02:59:39,600 --> 02:59:44,200
Speaker 1: restaurant where you know they serve bird eggs and all that.

3440
02:59:44,280 --> 02:59:47,560
Speaker 1: Are you say, I'm into it a new experience. Oh yeah,

3441
02:59:48,120 --> 02:59:51,480
Speaker 1: and I've eaten some terrible things, but I always want

3442
02:59:51,520 --> 02:59:53,720
Speaker 1: to try. I don't want to be that person who's

3443
02:59:53,800 --> 02:59:57,400
Speaker 1: scared to try because I've discovered incredible things that I

3444
02:59:57,440 --> 02:59:59,760
Speaker 1: didn't think I would like. Forgetting food, but just looking

3445
02:59:59,800 --> 03:00:02,320
Speaker 1: at the situation in general. Have you ever said yes

3446
03:00:02,400 --> 03:00:04,760
Speaker 1: to something and said, oh that was a big mistake. Yes?

3447
03:00:05,400 --> 03:00:09,880
Speaker 1: Do you remember anything? Yes? Space Mountain and Disneyland. I

3448
03:00:09,959 --> 03:00:11,720
Speaker 1: said yes, and I went on it and I wished

3449
03:00:11,760 --> 03:00:15,440
Speaker 1: to hudn't said yes. I really hated it. Well, the

3450
03:00:15,520 --> 03:00:17,760
Speaker 1: funny thing about it is I didn't go on Space

3451
03:00:17,840 --> 03:00:23,800
Speaker 1: Mountain until about you know, sometimes like then in this century. Okay,

3452
03:00:24,440 --> 03:00:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, they'd say Disneyland's a happiest place on Earth,

3453
03:00:27,000 --> 03:00:29,280
Speaker 1: and no, it's the most miserable place there. It's a

3454
03:00:29,360 --> 03:00:31,400
Speaker 1: place where I would never need go. I like to

3455
03:00:31,480 --> 03:00:33,480
Speaker 1: do everything in life once just so I can talk

3456
03:00:33,480 --> 03:00:35,240
Speaker 1: about it. So I rent there. It was great or

3457
03:00:35,280 --> 03:00:38,320
Speaker 1: it sucked whatever. But I was not a Disneyland person.

3458
03:00:38,400 --> 03:00:40,760
Speaker 1: But I went with my nephews and we went on

3459
03:00:40,920 --> 03:00:44,320
Speaker 1: Space Mountain. I'm not a big roller coaster person. Whatever.

3460
03:00:44,840 --> 03:00:47,080
Speaker 1: But the fact that the roller coaster was underground, you know,

3461
03:00:47,080 --> 03:00:50,280
Speaker 1: because most of the rides at Disneyland are disappointing as rides,

3462
03:00:50,520 --> 03:00:53,800
Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, I wouldn't say. See,

3463
03:00:53,800 --> 03:00:57,480
Speaker 1: I didn't find disney Disneyland rights disappointing. Far from it.

3464
03:00:57,520 --> 03:01:00,560
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed myself. However, my I did not find

3465
03:01:00,640 --> 03:01:02,640
Speaker 1: it the happiest place on Earth. I found it one

3466
03:01:02,680 --> 03:01:04,840
Speaker 1: of the most miserable places on Earth. I was engulfed

3467
03:01:04,879 --> 03:01:09,120
Speaker 1: in children's farts the entire time I was there. I

3468
03:01:09,280 --> 03:01:11,400
Speaker 1: hated standing for an hour and a half for a

3469
03:01:11,480 --> 03:01:13,600
Speaker 1: two minute, right, you know. But when I go into

3470
03:01:13,640 --> 03:01:17,320
Speaker 1: Space Mountain, I knew that it was like the prim right.

3471
03:01:17,440 --> 03:01:19,240
Speaker 1: Everyone was like, this is going to blow your mind.

3472
03:01:19,680 --> 03:01:22,080
Speaker 1: And I I honestly thought I was gonna have a

3473
03:01:22,320 --> 03:01:27,520
Speaker 1: heart attack. Really, yes, that was awful. That's one thing

3474
03:01:27,560 --> 03:01:29,280
Speaker 1: I remember. They had a they're still there. They have

3475
03:01:29,320 --> 03:01:31,440
Speaker 1: something called the Revolution. Maybe they're going to tear it

3476
03:01:31,520 --> 03:01:36,000
Speaker 1: Down's original roller coaster at Magic Mountain and the seventies.

3477
03:01:36,040 --> 03:01:38,040
Speaker 1: It was the first roller coaster that went upside down.

3478
03:01:38,879 --> 03:01:40,280
Speaker 1: So I remember getting on. It would go up a

3479
03:01:40,320 --> 03:01:43,120
Speaker 1: little hill, gonna curve and then and you're there. Then

3480
03:01:43,200 --> 03:01:45,160
Speaker 1: you were You're there. I am so freaked up. You

3481
03:01:45,240 --> 03:01:47,880
Speaker 1: can't get off. It's like there, It's like there's nothing

3482
03:01:48,000 --> 03:01:51,039
Speaker 1: I can do. But I like being on the little teacups.

3483
03:01:51,240 --> 03:01:56,800
Speaker 1: I feel safe vomit cups. Really, oh man, it was

3484
03:01:56,800 --> 03:02:00,160
Speaker 1: a really that was one of the original rides. But um,

3485
03:02:00,680 --> 03:02:03,520
Speaker 1: music drove the culture in the era that you grew

3486
03:02:03,640 --> 03:02:06,440
Speaker 1: up in, an I do not believe music drives the

3487
03:02:06,520 --> 03:02:09,440
Speaker 1: culture at this particularly do. I just think there's no

3488
03:02:10,160 --> 03:02:14,760
Speaker 1: common music driving the entire culture, if that makes any sense.

3489
03:02:14,800 --> 03:02:17,920
Speaker 1: I think music has a big an influence now than

3490
03:02:17,959 --> 03:02:23,039
Speaker 1: it arguably ever has. But it's all, you know, fractionalized

3491
03:02:23,120 --> 03:02:24,560
Speaker 1: or what's the word. I'm looking you know, I get

3492
03:02:24,600 --> 03:02:27,160
Speaker 1: what you're saying, you know, they're all these different niches.

3493
03:02:27,600 --> 03:02:28,920
Speaker 1: Why do you think it has as much. I mean,

3494
03:02:28,959 --> 03:02:31,080
Speaker 1: if I go back to the sixties, a rock star

3495
03:02:31,120 --> 03:02:33,280
Speaker 1: would say something and beyond the radio and it would

3496
03:02:33,360 --> 03:02:35,760
Speaker 1: change thinking in the role in general. I don't think

3497
03:02:35,800 --> 03:02:37,879
Speaker 1: that happens. No, it doesn't have the same cultural impact

3498
03:02:37,920 --> 03:02:41,160
Speaker 1: because everyone's not listening to the same one artist. You know,

3499
03:02:41,200 --> 03:02:43,800
Speaker 1: when Elvis was singing, we were all listening to Elvis.

3500
03:02:43,920 --> 03:02:45,920
Speaker 1: You know, not you were too well, I was too young.

3501
03:02:46,000 --> 03:02:48,199
Speaker 1: But I'm I'm trying to talk talk to It's okay,

3502
03:02:48,200 --> 03:02:54,040
Speaker 1: but I gotta bust you every chance I have. I

3503
03:02:54,080 --> 03:02:56,600
Speaker 1: gotta wake up. I gotta take some of that speed

3504
03:02:56,680 --> 03:03:00,320
Speaker 1: to get in here. So I take my chances from

3505
03:03:00,400 --> 03:03:03,200
Speaker 1: female whenever I can get up full respect. Okay. So

3506
03:03:03,440 --> 03:03:07,320
Speaker 1: in any event, you're you're saying that it's not driving

3507
03:03:07,360 --> 03:03:09,240
Speaker 1: the culture like it used in the days of Elvis. Well,

3508
03:03:09,280 --> 03:03:11,920
Speaker 1: single artists and bands are not. They don't have the

3509
03:03:11,959 --> 03:03:15,040
Speaker 1: same cultural impact. But music has never been more listened

3510
03:03:15,080 --> 03:03:18,560
Speaker 1: to ever historically speaking. I agree. But do you play

3511
03:03:19,000 --> 03:03:21,560
Speaker 1: at home? Do you play music? Yes? And what do

3512
03:03:21,640 --> 03:03:25,440
Speaker 1: you play? I listened to all kinds of music. I

3513
03:03:25,480 --> 03:03:27,240
Speaker 1: mean that sounds like such a copype I really do.

3514
03:03:27,840 --> 03:03:31,480
Speaker 1: And I've just taken very recently too. Instead of like

3515
03:03:31,640 --> 03:03:36,080
Speaker 1: sort of of creating my listening habits recently, I've just

3516
03:03:36,160 --> 03:03:39,039
Speaker 1: put my I've just turned my phone on and put

3517
03:03:39,120 --> 03:03:41,760
Speaker 1: it through this system and just listen to anything from

3518
03:03:41,840 --> 03:03:45,080
Speaker 1: my playlist that the phone dictates, and it's been extraordinary.

3519
03:03:45,080 --> 03:03:48,480
Speaker 1: I've loved it. But these are songs that you originally picked. Well,

3520
03:03:48,520 --> 03:03:50,920
Speaker 1: there's certainly albums that I've picked. Yeah, But like I said,

3521
03:03:50,959 --> 03:03:52,600
Speaker 1: I listened to classical, I listened to you Azz, I

3522
03:03:52,640 --> 03:03:54,400
Speaker 1: listened to blues, I listened to POPA listen to rock,

3523
03:03:54,440 --> 03:03:56,280
Speaker 1: I listen to heavy metal. I mean, I will listen

3524
03:03:56,400 --> 03:03:58,520
Speaker 1: to anything, but I get overwhelmed. I mean it's like

3525
03:03:58,560 --> 03:04:00,640
Speaker 1: if you go on Spotify or any of the services

3526
03:04:01,080 --> 03:04:02,960
Speaker 1: and you listen to the new music and they break

3527
03:04:03,000 --> 03:04:05,720
Speaker 1: it down by genre, and you say, okay, there's fifty

3528
03:04:05,760 --> 03:04:08,840
Speaker 1: country tracks, fifty dance tracks, and if you listen to fifty,

3529
03:04:09,240 --> 03:04:11,560
Speaker 1: you'll find one or two good ones, and you start

3530
03:04:11,600 --> 03:04:15,200
Speaker 1: to get overwhelmed, you know, and a lot of times

3531
03:04:15,240 --> 03:04:17,400
Speaker 1: you'll find something go you know, recently, well, is anybody

3532
03:04:17,440 --> 03:04:19,800
Speaker 1: else I like this? As anybody else like that? There's

3533
03:04:19,840 --> 03:04:23,200
Speaker 1: no coherence to the culture. That's true, but is that

3534
03:04:23,280 --> 03:04:25,520
Speaker 1: about them? I'm not sure that's about that. I think

3535
03:04:27,720 --> 03:04:30,480
Speaker 1: I hate being told what to do. But it goes

3536
03:04:30,520 --> 03:04:32,800
Speaker 1: back to what we're talking about earlier in terms of argument.

3537
03:04:33,360 --> 03:04:35,360
Speaker 1: We live in an era where everyone has their own

3538
03:04:35,520 --> 03:04:38,440
Speaker 1: facts in their own lives, which is almost a tower

3539
03:04:38,520 --> 03:04:42,920
Speaker 1: of Babel society. And even with television, we're in the

3540
03:04:42,959 --> 03:04:45,480
Speaker 1: golden age of television and is there are a lot

3541
03:04:45,560 --> 03:04:49,120
Speaker 1: fewer television shows than there are music shows. But even

3542
03:04:49,240 --> 03:04:52,520
Speaker 1: then we'll find well, we can't talk because we didn't

3543
03:04:52,560 --> 03:04:55,879
Speaker 1: see the same shows, we didn't see the same movies. Okay,

3544
03:04:56,200 --> 03:05:00,400
Speaker 1: so there's no community fiber. No, that's true, But we

3545
03:05:00,520 --> 03:05:03,039
Speaker 1: don't know yet where that's going to go. That might

3546
03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:05,640
Speaker 1: go somewhere fantastic, We just don't know yet. Well, I

3547
03:05:05,920 --> 03:05:08,959
Speaker 1: think I believe it's going to go along the lines

3548
03:05:09,200 --> 03:05:11,640
Speaker 1: of americ at large, which is winners and losers. I

3549
03:05:11,760 --> 03:05:16,640
Speaker 1: believe we have an inherent desire to be with other

3550
03:05:16,680 --> 03:05:18,560
Speaker 1: people like you talk about going out to breakfast or

3551
03:05:18,560 --> 03:05:20,400
Speaker 1: dinner or whatever, or it' to be able to say,

3552
03:05:20,440 --> 03:05:24,320
Speaker 1: oh I saw that show. It sucked, Okay, And therefore

3553
03:05:24,640 --> 03:05:26,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of rabble rousing from people who are

3554
03:05:26,600 --> 03:05:29,480
Speaker 1: not successful. But the reasons if you look at the

3555
03:05:29,520 --> 03:05:31,800
Speaker 1: movie business, like and I don't go to the movies.

3556
03:05:31,840 --> 03:05:33,879
Speaker 1: First of they don't start when you want them to start.

3557
03:05:34,120 --> 03:05:35,680
Speaker 1: And I have so much I don't have any time,

3558
03:05:35,720 --> 03:05:37,480
Speaker 1: and I have so many options at home on the

3559
03:05:37,879 --> 03:05:41,199
Speaker 1: flat screen. But if you look at the weekly grosses,

3560
03:05:41,640 --> 03:05:44,879
Speaker 1: you know, Black Panther well far eclips all the other

3561
03:05:44,959 --> 03:05:47,520
Speaker 1: movies combined. And I think part of the people say, oh, yeah,

3562
03:05:47,520 --> 03:05:50,520
Speaker 1: I saw that good bad. Otherwise, I think there's a

3563
03:05:50,600 --> 03:05:53,960
Speaker 1: desire for community. There is a desire for community. But

3564
03:05:54,040 --> 03:05:56,920
Speaker 1: at the same time, I do believe in the principle

3565
03:05:57,200 --> 03:06:01,480
Speaker 1: of evolution. I have faith in evolution that evolution will

3566
03:06:01,480 --> 03:06:05,160
Speaker 1: sort this out sooner or later. I mean, every generation

3567
03:06:05,320 --> 03:06:08,000
Speaker 1: moans about the new generation that's in place, you know,

3568
03:06:09,040 --> 03:06:12,640
Speaker 1: And I feel that we always harp on about how

3569
03:06:12,760 --> 03:06:17,160
Speaker 1: things once were, forgetting that evolution has always like I

3570
03:06:17,320 --> 03:06:19,400
Speaker 1: have better life than my mom did, and my mom

3571
03:06:19,480 --> 03:06:21,680
Speaker 1: has a better life than my granny did. And I

3572
03:06:21,760 --> 03:06:24,800
Speaker 1: have to assume that my all my friends kids will

3573
03:06:24,840 --> 03:06:27,000
Speaker 1: have a better life than and than we did. And

3574
03:06:27,320 --> 03:06:30,640
Speaker 1: I think that's a great thing. And I think we

3575
03:06:30,800 --> 03:06:34,760
Speaker 1: can all sort of like pick over the carcass of

3576
03:06:34,879 --> 03:06:37,400
Speaker 1: what once was, or we can embrace what is and

3577
03:06:37,520 --> 03:06:39,200
Speaker 1: I want to be and what is I'm going to

3578
03:06:39,240 --> 03:06:41,520
Speaker 1: embrace what it is. Well, I'm gonna argue with you, Okay,

3579
03:06:41,800 --> 03:06:43,680
Speaker 1: in my generation, I know a lot of people are

3580
03:06:43,720 --> 03:06:46,680
Speaker 1: not doing as well as their parents. Okay, the baby boomers,

3581
03:06:46,879 --> 03:06:49,080
Speaker 1: your parents had a lot. Well, you're you're talking about

3582
03:06:49,080 --> 03:06:52,400
Speaker 1: economics though, right, you're talking about house and money okay,

3583
03:06:52,400 --> 03:06:57,720
Speaker 1: and you're talking about rights freedoms. Well, knowledge, I would argue,

3584
03:06:57,760 --> 03:07:00,800
Speaker 1: engay people can get married in America is wonderful. I

3585
03:07:00,920 --> 03:07:02,680
Speaker 1: gret a lot of that to MTV. People saw a

3586
03:07:02,760 --> 03:07:05,120
Speaker 1: rainbow of colors there and therefore they were you know,

3587
03:07:05,200 --> 03:07:08,600
Speaker 1: there's less racism, etcetera. But we live in a country

3588
03:07:08,720 --> 03:07:11,160
Speaker 1: the way there isn't less racism. But that's a whole

3589
03:07:11,200 --> 03:07:16,800
Speaker 1: lot of back to that. I believe in America there

3590
03:07:17,040 --> 03:07:19,920
Speaker 1: is less racism, but you have a very vocal minority

3591
03:07:20,240 --> 03:07:23,360
Speaker 1: who was afraid of losing. I have to disagree. You're

3592
03:07:23,400 --> 03:07:26,600
Speaker 1: talking from a very white, privileged position. No, I'm saying

3593
03:07:26,680 --> 03:07:29,520
Speaker 1: that if you go back decades and you saw an

3594
03:07:29,600 --> 03:07:33,320
Speaker 1: interracial couple walking down the street, chances are there to

3595
03:07:33,440 --> 03:07:37,560
Speaker 1: be sneers or comments comments. I believe there are less

3596
03:07:37,600 --> 03:07:40,600
Speaker 1: and now we're all victims of our own experience. And

3597
03:07:40,720 --> 03:07:43,760
Speaker 1: I'm not saying there's not racism, there's not anti semitism,

3598
03:07:43,920 --> 03:07:48,480
Speaker 1: there's not sexism. But I believe, but I believe as

3599
03:07:48,520 --> 03:07:52,600
Speaker 1: a result of media, there's a certain level of enlightenment.

3600
03:07:52,800 --> 03:07:57,039
Speaker 1: I view as a result of the economic disparity. Okay,

3601
03:07:57,959 --> 03:08:00,959
Speaker 1: the people who have been left out, whether through their

3602
03:08:01,000 --> 03:08:03,520
Speaker 1: own fault or not through room fault, have started to

3603
03:08:03,600 --> 03:08:09,200
Speaker 1: rebel around the world Half Brexit, Trump, etcetera. And it's

3604
03:08:09,280 --> 03:08:14,039
Speaker 1: focused on those people. Unfortunately, with that has come racism.

3605
03:08:14,320 --> 03:08:15,760
Speaker 1: And I don't want to comment on the rest of

3606
03:08:15,760 --> 03:08:17,400
Speaker 1: the rule because I'm not as much of an expert,

3607
03:08:17,800 --> 03:08:21,080
Speaker 1: but in America, I would believe pound for pound there's

3608
03:08:21,160 --> 03:08:24,680
Speaker 1: less racism and less homophobia than there was. Not that

3609
03:08:24,760 --> 03:08:27,840
Speaker 1: there isn't very vocal racism homophobia, but I think we're

3610
03:08:28,360 --> 03:08:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's like Jerry Springer, who used to be

3611
03:08:31,080 --> 03:08:33,879
Speaker 1: the mayor of Cleveland, Okay, before he had his insane show,

3612
03:08:34,600 --> 03:08:37,320
Speaker 1: and he's not a stupid guy. He says, the liberals

3613
03:08:37,360 --> 03:08:40,240
Speaker 1: always win in the end, Okay, all the things that

3614
03:08:40,320 --> 03:08:44,119
Speaker 1: were unthinkable, you know, abortion, gay marriage, etcetera, etcetera. They're happening.

3615
03:08:44,160 --> 03:08:48,560
Speaker 1: Eventually the rest of the world wakes up. Well, I

3616
03:08:48,600 --> 03:08:50,520
Speaker 1: don't even notice where to start without. To be honest,

3617
03:08:50,640 --> 03:08:54,640
Speaker 1: we'll start anywhere, but I'll start with have you I

3618
03:08:54,680 --> 03:08:56,520
Speaker 1: don't know what that is. It's a documentary about the

3619
03:08:56,520 --> 03:09:01,800
Speaker 1: penal system here in America. No, have you seen you're

3620
03:09:01,879 --> 03:09:03,959
Speaker 1: making I am not your Negro back, but you're making

3621
03:09:04,080 --> 03:09:07,080
Speaker 1: the point that a whole generation of African Americans were

3622
03:09:07,080 --> 03:09:09,440
Speaker 1: wiping up by putting them in jails. It's nothing what

3623
03:09:09,560 --> 03:09:12,720
Speaker 1: you're making. I agree totally. You know that there's a

3624
03:09:12,800 --> 03:09:16,960
Speaker 1: lot of endemic problems. I'm not apologizing for them. But

3625
03:09:17,120 --> 03:09:21,160
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that I believe that generally it's

3626
03:09:21,200 --> 03:09:26,160
Speaker 1: going Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Well, again, it's complex,

3627
03:09:26,200 --> 03:09:28,360
Speaker 1: isn't it. There are some people who get left behind this,

3628
03:09:28,520 --> 03:09:32,400
Speaker 1: but generally speaking, our generation has it better than the

3629
03:09:32,640 --> 03:09:37,560
Speaker 1: previous generation. And then there are parts of our society

3630
03:09:37,600 --> 03:09:40,840
Speaker 1: who are being left behind. And that's blacks and and

3631
03:09:41,480 --> 03:09:44,520
Speaker 1: people of color appressively so, but it's also white. I

3632
03:09:44,560 --> 03:09:46,359
Speaker 1: don't want to make this, as you know, white apologist,

3633
03:09:46,520 --> 03:09:48,440
Speaker 1: but just to illuminate the point, this is how Trump

3634
03:09:48,520 --> 03:09:51,160
Speaker 1: got elected. There are people as a result of the

3635
03:09:51,280 --> 03:09:56,160
Speaker 1: economic changes they in globalization, they don't have if you're

3636
03:09:56,240 --> 03:09:59,119
Speaker 1: left behind. And and then the crazy thing stamething with Brexit.

3637
03:09:59,280 --> 03:10:01,560
Speaker 1: Their solution is, let's chet back to the past, and

3638
03:10:01,640 --> 03:10:04,320
Speaker 1: the past is never coming back. That's Trump's approach to

3639
03:10:04,480 --> 03:10:06,680
Speaker 1: It's it's very like I just did never believe you

3640
03:10:06,720 --> 03:10:08,760
Speaker 1: can look back. I think you must always look forward

3641
03:10:08,760 --> 03:10:11,080
Speaker 1: to you know. Well, the scary thing is I mean,

3642
03:10:11,440 --> 03:10:13,480
Speaker 1: I certainly lived through the sixties of the Vietnam War

3643
03:10:13,560 --> 03:10:17,160
Speaker 1: in the draft, but since then in America, this is

3644
03:10:17,200 --> 03:10:19,920
Speaker 1: the first time where every you're addicted to the news

3645
03:10:20,760 --> 03:10:23,720
Speaker 1: and it's uh, it's just like when the wall fell,

3646
03:10:23,840 --> 03:10:26,119
Speaker 1: when the wall fell in Berlin and you were there.

3647
03:10:26,320 --> 03:10:28,680
Speaker 1: We were of the illusion in America the other doctor,

3648
03:10:28,720 --> 03:10:31,720
Speaker 1: democracy will reign. And now you have booting, you know,

3649
03:10:31,840 --> 03:10:35,520
Speaker 1: assassinating spies in a different country, and we have you know,

3650
03:10:36,800 --> 03:10:39,440
Speaker 1: you know, we have the head of the country for

3651
03:10:39,600 --> 03:10:42,400
Speaker 1: life in China. It's you know, the world is going

3652
03:10:42,520 --> 03:10:47,400
Speaker 1: to it. You know. It's exactly as my dad says.

3653
03:10:47,480 --> 03:10:50,240
Speaker 1: And I actually feel like I have to cling onto

3654
03:10:50,320 --> 03:10:54,480
Speaker 1: this analogy, which is, you know, evolution happens, whether we

3655
03:10:54,560 --> 03:10:58,200
Speaker 1: like it or not. It's just what occurs when you

3656
03:10:58,320 --> 03:11:02,039
Speaker 1: leave humans on a planet for long enough, they will evolve.

3657
03:11:02,800 --> 03:11:06,240
Speaker 1: And there's always moments, he said, It's just like it's

3658
03:11:06,280 --> 03:11:08,800
Speaker 1: like tight, it's like title shifts, you know, you that's

3659
03:11:08,920 --> 03:11:11,640
Speaker 1: the tide gets sucked back for a moment, and then

3660
03:11:11,680 --> 03:11:14,520
Speaker 1: it surges forward, and it surges for further forward than

3661
03:11:14,560 --> 03:11:17,520
Speaker 1: it did before. And that's that's always what my dad

3662
03:11:17,600 --> 03:11:19,520
Speaker 1: says to try and calm me down when I'm getting

3663
03:11:19,600 --> 03:11:23,200
Speaker 1: hysterical and and full of desperate depression about the way

3664
03:11:23,240 --> 03:11:25,240
Speaker 1: the world is turning. He's like, it's it will turn back,

3665
03:11:26,320 --> 03:11:29,480
Speaker 1: generally speaking, Are you an optimist? I used to be

3666
03:11:29,600 --> 03:11:33,120
Speaker 1: a terrible pessimist, and then something turned around when my

3667
03:11:33,240 --> 03:11:35,480
Speaker 1: mom died for me, like it was like a bolt

3668
03:11:35,560 --> 03:11:38,000
Speaker 1: from the blue I had. I was forced to change

3669
03:11:38,040 --> 03:11:41,200
Speaker 1: my thinking because if I hadn't changed my thinking, I

3670
03:11:41,240 --> 03:11:45,840
Speaker 1: would have died of grief. And and I I just

3671
03:11:46,280 --> 03:11:49,080
Speaker 1: decided me. I made a decision that the light because

3672
03:11:49,080 --> 03:11:51,200
Speaker 1: my mom had a lot of light in her. She

3673
03:11:51,360 --> 03:11:53,200
Speaker 1: was a real people pleaser, my mom because she'd been

3674
03:11:53,240 --> 03:11:54,800
Speaker 1: an orphan and she wants people to love her and

3675
03:11:54,959 --> 03:11:58,360
Speaker 1: like her, and so she brought light into every situation,

3676
03:11:58,760 --> 03:12:00,200
Speaker 1: and I used to annoy me, you know, as a

3677
03:12:00,800 --> 03:12:04,760
Speaker 1: moody teenager. It just fucking and irritated me. And then

3678
03:12:04,800 --> 03:12:07,720
Speaker 1: when she died, I realized that light is gone. You know,

3679
03:12:07,840 --> 03:12:09,800
Speaker 1: people would say to me at my mom's funeral. You

3680
03:12:09,840 --> 03:12:12,720
Speaker 1: know your mam always you never left your mom feeling worse.

3681
03:12:12,879 --> 03:12:15,040
Speaker 1: You always left your mom feeling better than you did

3682
03:12:15,640 --> 03:12:18,040
Speaker 1: before you bumped into her. And I just made this

3683
03:12:18,200 --> 03:12:20,680
Speaker 1: decision that I had to do something with my mom's light.

3684
03:12:20,720 --> 03:12:23,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't let it go and dissipate into nothing. That's

3685
03:12:23,680 --> 03:12:25,360
Speaker 1: I had to hold a bit of her light in me,

3686
03:12:25,879 --> 03:12:29,120
Speaker 1: and I used that to change the way I approached

3687
03:12:29,200 --> 03:12:32,120
Speaker 1: my life. It sounds really okay, but it's really true,

3688
03:12:32,440 --> 03:12:35,360
Speaker 1: and it was quite that conscious. It was conscious. Yeah,

3689
03:12:35,440 --> 03:12:37,320
Speaker 1: I was just like, I need to change the way

3690
03:12:37,480 --> 03:12:40,119
Speaker 1: I I don't want people to leave me feeling worse.

3691
03:12:40,440 --> 03:12:42,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a vibe crush. I don't

3692
03:12:42,240 --> 03:12:44,920
Speaker 1: want people to feel yucky around me. And you know,

3693
03:12:44,959 --> 03:12:46,800
Speaker 1: we're all aware of what that's like to bump into

3694
03:12:46,879 --> 03:12:51,000
Speaker 1: somebody who makes us feel disgusting. You know, whether they're irritable,

3695
03:12:51,080 --> 03:12:53,520
Speaker 1: whether they're depressed, whether they moan, whether they only talk

3696
03:12:53,560 --> 03:12:55,640
Speaker 1: about themselves. I don't know. There's a million one reasons

3697
03:12:55,640 --> 03:12:58,080
Speaker 1: why we don't like being around people. Yeah, And I

3698
03:12:58,200 --> 03:13:00,040
Speaker 1: was just like, I want to be a person in

3699
03:13:00,120 --> 03:13:02,560
Speaker 1: the world that makes people feel good. Again, I go

3700
03:13:02,640 --> 03:13:04,600
Speaker 1: back to this word of being in service, like I

3701
03:13:04,800 --> 03:13:07,879
Speaker 1: just I want to take my mom's light and give

3702
03:13:07,959 --> 03:13:10,320
Speaker 1: it to someone else so we can spread these particles

3703
03:13:10,360 --> 03:13:14,360
Speaker 1: of my amazing mother. When you talk about service, that's

3704
03:13:14,480 --> 03:13:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, twelve step language. Is that where you got it? Okay,

3705
03:13:19,920 --> 03:13:23,560
Speaker 1: and you never had a problem with Okay. That's not

3706
03:13:23,640 --> 03:13:27,800
Speaker 1: to say I won't develop one. I love alcohol. I

3707
03:13:28,240 --> 03:13:30,200
Speaker 1: had to stop drinking alcohol because I was definitely the

3708
03:13:30,240 --> 03:13:32,560
Speaker 1: type person who couldn't have only one. If you want

3709
03:13:32,560 --> 03:13:34,240
Speaker 1: to have one or two drinks, didn't you didn't call

3710
03:13:34,280 --> 03:13:35,480
Speaker 1: me you want to have the night of your life

3711
03:13:35,680 --> 03:13:40,199
Speaker 1: or attempt you know, Oh boy, I can tell story

3712
03:13:40,240 --> 03:13:42,720
Speaker 1: after story, and then then there's you know how I

3713
03:13:43,000 --> 03:13:44,960
Speaker 1: and then how I finally stopped, and I did not

3714
03:13:45,160 --> 03:13:47,520
Speaker 1: stop saying, oh, I'm never gonna I'm never gonna have

3715
03:13:47,560 --> 03:13:49,920
Speaker 1: another drink. It's just my life got way too crazy

3716
03:13:50,520 --> 03:13:53,960
Speaker 1: and no more, excuse me, I want to know more.

3717
03:13:54,360 --> 03:13:56,560
Speaker 1: This is a much longer story but I'll give you

3718
03:13:56,840 --> 03:14:00,440
Speaker 1: just the tip of it. Yeah, give me the cry.

3719
03:14:01,520 --> 03:14:04,080
Speaker 1: So this was nineteen This is a long time ago

3720
03:14:05,600 --> 03:14:10,600
Speaker 1: one going into two. And I had been stopped for

3721
03:14:10,800 --> 03:14:14,119
Speaker 1: drunk driving on the night that John Lennon got died.

3722
03:14:14,920 --> 03:14:18,680
Speaker 1: John jet shot and died. That's an amazing story unto itself.

3723
03:14:19,360 --> 03:14:23,280
Speaker 1: But I ultimately got a reckless driving as opposed to

3724
03:14:23,400 --> 03:14:27,760
Speaker 1: d u I and there's a condition with that where

3725
03:14:27,879 --> 03:14:31,279
Speaker 1: you can't drive within eight hours of having a drink.

3726
03:14:32,000 --> 03:14:34,440
Speaker 1: And in the time it took for that case to

3727
03:14:34,600 --> 03:14:37,960
Speaker 1: come to court, I had been stopped once again on

3728
03:14:38,080 --> 03:14:40,360
Speaker 1: the four oh five. In that particular case. The couple

3729
03:14:40,440 --> 03:14:42,760
Speaker 1: let me go, but I but I knew that I

3730
03:14:42,840 --> 03:14:47,560
Speaker 1: could be stopped. So once I got the reckless driving

3731
03:14:47,959 --> 03:14:50,840
Speaker 1: and I couldn't have a drink within eight hours of driving,

3732
03:14:51,360 --> 03:14:55,960
Speaker 1: I took that very serious. Okay, because you cannot be

3733
03:14:56,040 --> 03:14:58,600
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles without a driver's license. You have to move.

3734
03:14:59,280 --> 03:15:02,880
Speaker 1: This is pre uber, pre the train, etcetera. You can't

3735
03:15:02,959 --> 03:15:06,080
Speaker 1: do that. So no, I wouldn't you know, I would

3736
03:15:06,120 --> 03:15:08,560
Speaker 1: walk home from the bar or whatever. And the Los

3737
03:15:08,600 --> 03:15:11,200
Speaker 1: Angeles had something not that easy to say. I met

3738
03:15:11,320 --> 03:15:14,039
Speaker 1: a woman and at that big that was just when

3739
03:15:14,120 --> 03:15:17,240
Speaker 1: sushi was coming, and she lived in West Hollywood, and

3740
03:15:20,160 --> 03:15:26,680
Speaker 1: she bit me. Everybody's in you know, this is part

3741
03:15:26,720 --> 03:15:28,800
Speaker 1: of a sex. This is part of it during intercourse.

3742
03:15:31,800 --> 03:15:34,160
Speaker 1: Were what part of your boat did she bite that

3743
03:15:34,400 --> 03:15:37,600
Speaker 1: was on my neck? I believe the first time. And

3744
03:15:38,040 --> 03:15:43,560
Speaker 1: I immediately I like like, I like being frozen like you. Okay.

3745
03:15:43,879 --> 03:15:47,760
Speaker 1: I immediately just reacted, whoa that hurt? And she said, oh,

3746
03:15:47,840 --> 03:15:49,960
Speaker 1: it didn't hurt that bad. That was not the right

3747
03:15:50,000 --> 03:15:56,160
Speaker 1: answer for me. Okay, So she apologizes, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

3748
03:15:56,440 --> 03:15:58,880
Speaker 1: I'm really kind of freaked out. And for a couple

3749
03:15:58,920 --> 03:16:01,360
Speaker 1: of days things are sha and then she and she

3750
03:16:01,440 --> 03:16:04,560
Speaker 1: says it will never happen again, never happen again, okay.

3751
03:16:04,959 --> 03:16:07,360
Speaker 1: And I go to visit her, and the sushi bar

3752
03:16:07,480 --> 03:16:10,800
Speaker 1: was two blocks from her house, okay, And we come back.

3753
03:16:12,160 --> 03:16:16,240
Speaker 1: We come back and the same thing happens again. But

3754
03:16:16,560 --> 03:16:20,240
Speaker 1: I can't leave because I can't dry within eight hours

3755
03:16:20,320 --> 03:16:24,720
Speaker 1: of having a drink, You're stuck there. And I say,

3756
03:16:25,360 --> 03:16:29,920
Speaker 1: my life is way too complicated. I'm gonna stop drinking

3757
03:16:30,080 --> 03:16:33,760
Speaker 1: for now so I won't be in this situation. And

3758
03:16:34,000 --> 03:16:39,520
Speaker 1: then it was such a change, not drinking because I

3759
03:16:39,600 --> 03:16:41,680
Speaker 1: was not in a good spot in my life that

3760
03:16:42,320 --> 03:16:43,760
Speaker 1: it was such getting over the hurdle that when I

3761
03:16:43,760 --> 03:16:45,280
Speaker 1: got over the hurdle, I didn't want to drink again.

3762
03:16:46,560 --> 03:16:49,120
Speaker 1: But hold on. So when she beat you, it was

3763
03:16:49,240 --> 03:16:53,760
Speaker 1: during sex and she bat your neck and it was

3764
03:16:53,840 --> 03:16:56,680
Speaker 1: so painful that did she take a chunk out? Event

3765
03:16:56,840 --> 03:16:59,600
Speaker 1: she didn't take a chunk, but it was but it

3766
03:16:59,760 --> 03:17:01,400
Speaker 1: fell like there would be blood. It was not a

3767
03:17:01,520 --> 03:17:05,039
Speaker 1: playful bite. It was something very aggressive because you were

3768
03:17:05,080 --> 03:17:09,880
Speaker 1: such a good fuck. I'm trying to think, you know,

3769
03:17:10,800 --> 03:17:12,680
Speaker 1: you know, you go back into these I've been in

3770
03:17:12,720 --> 03:17:15,520
Speaker 1: a very long term relationship where I'd lived with a

3771
03:17:15,560 --> 03:17:18,080
Speaker 1: woman for years and that had ended and there was

3772
03:17:18,200 --> 03:17:22,600
Speaker 1: the rebound relationship, and this was the first kind of

3773
03:17:22,680 --> 03:17:28,480
Speaker 1: more serious relationship after the rebound relationship. So uh I

3774
03:17:29,120 --> 03:17:33,040
Speaker 1: And it's one of those situations where I don't know

3775
03:17:33,080 --> 03:17:36,200
Speaker 1: whether this is I'm wondering whether you've been on the

3776
03:17:36,240 --> 03:17:39,480
Speaker 1: opposite side where you're doing everything is normal, but the

3777
03:17:39,600 --> 03:17:42,360
Speaker 1: person is starting to say things that heighten your ange,

3778
03:17:43,440 --> 03:17:47,520
Speaker 1: Like I've got a great story, but it's like a holiday,

3779
03:17:47,640 --> 03:17:49,680
Speaker 1: Well you have to come meet my parents. Well it's

3780
03:17:49,720 --> 03:17:51,560
Speaker 1: one thing if I had been dating you for six

3781
03:17:51,640 --> 03:17:53,040
Speaker 1: months or a year. We've been going out for a

3782
03:17:53,080 --> 03:17:56,000
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. I don't need to meet your parents.

3783
03:17:56,560 --> 03:17:59,480
Speaker 1: So at some point I believe she sensed a little.

3784
03:17:59,600 --> 03:18:01,480
Speaker 1: This was not the first time she bit me, but

3785
03:18:01,600 --> 03:18:03,680
Speaker 1: the last time she bait me, I think, and I

3786
03:18:03,800 --> 03:18:06,680
Speaker 1: did leave. I think she sent some of my reluctance

3787
03:18:06,680 --> 03:18:08,879
Speaker 1: and it was a whatever. But the story you were

3788
03:18:08,920 --> 03:18:11,200
Speaker 1: going to tell, well, I was having sex once in

3789
03:18:11,320 --> 03:18:16,360
Speaker 1: my parents house with an older guy, and you know,

3790
03:18:16,400 --> 03:18:17,959
Speaker 1: we were trying to keep it on the download because

3791
03:18:17,959 --> 03:18:20,280
Speaker 1: my parents were sleeping upstairs, and we were in front

3792
03:18:20,320 --> 03:18:23,960
Speaker 1: of a fire in in my parents house. That was

3793
03:18:24,040 --> 03:18:26,959
Speaker 1: a cool fueled fire, but it had a glass pane,

3794
03:18:27,640 --> 03:18:29,440
Speaker 1: so you know that it was an enclosed fire with

3795
03:18:29,520 --> 03:18:32,360
Speaker 1: a glass front. So we're having sex anyway, and my

3796
03:18:32,640 --> 03:18:36,280
Speaker 1: knee falls onto the glass pane, and you know, he's

3797
03:18:36,360 --> 03:18:38,680
Speaker 1: humping me, and he's a big dude, and he's like,

3798
03:18:39,520 --> 03:18:42,840
Speaker 1: you know, making all the sexual signs, and I eventually go,

3799
03:18:43,440 --> 03:18:47,520
Speaker 1: I'm I'm burning up because my knee was burning on

3800
03:18:47,640 --> 03:18:53,760
Speaker 1: the glass and he went, yeah, me too. That was

3801
03:18:53,840 --> 03:18:56,160
Speaker 1: so low fi and I got really badly burned that

3802
03:18:57,800 --> 03:19:00,680
Speaker 1: over him. We could go on forever. They The amazing

3803
03:19:00,840 --> 03:19:05,840
Speaker 1: thing about you is I only know you by image, Okay,

3804
03:19:06,040 --> 03:19:07,760
Speaker 1: I mean I see you in the videos on the

3805
03:19:08,080 --> 03:19:12,720
Speaker 1: you know, in other media. You are completely different from

3806
03:19:12,800 --> 03:19:17,920
Speaker 1: what I thought you. It's all good for for some reason,

3807
03:19:18,080 --> 03:19:21,560
Speaker 1: and you will laugh hysterically. I thought you were somewhat

3808
03:19:21,640 --> 03:19:29,400
Speaker 1: demure in results. No, I mean I'd almost like to

3809
03:19:29,640 --> 03:19:33,360
Speaker 1: reel the whole podcast back and start with just the

3810
03:19:33,400 --> 03:19:37,000
Speaker 1: hell's a popping off the top of our head conversation first,

3811
03:19:37,400 --> 03:19:39,200
Speaker 1: because I was, you know, at first, I'm anxious. You know,

3812
03:19:39,240 --> 03:19:40,880
Speaker 1: I don't really know you what what will be the

3813
03:19:40,920 --> 03:19:43,760
Speaker 1: point that will stimulate you? And I realized it doesn't

3814
03:19:44,000 --> 03:19:49,680
Speaker 1: take that much, and it takes a lot. You know,

3815
03:19:50,720 --> 03:19:54,000
Speaker 1: today's me too world. I don't know where I can

3816
03:19:54,040 --> 03:19:58,240
Speaker 1: go there are we I meant stimulation in terms of

3817
03:19:58,959 --> 03:20:02,600
Speaker 1: getting you excited about the world at large? Is that

3818
03:20:02,680 --> 03:20:07,600
Speaker 1: what you mean? You meant it more you met it? Oh, Bob,

3819
03:20:08,240 --> 03:20:12,199
Speaker 1: come on, okay, I'm not now went through the mental

3820
03:20:12,400 --> 03:20:15,119
Speaker 1: roll index figuring out exactly what's going on here. You've

3821
03:20:15,160 --> 03:20:17,959
Speaker 1: been listening to Shirley Manson on the Bob Left Sets podcast.

3822
03:20:18,000 --> 03:20:26,359
Speaker 1: You were wonderful, Shirley. That wraps up this week's episode

3823
03:20:26,400 --> 03:20:29,080
Speaker 1: of the Bob Left Sets podcast. According to here at

3824
03:20:29,120 --> 03:20:32,160
Speaker 1: the tune In Studios in Venice, California, I hope you

3825
03:20:32,280 --> 03:20:35,840
Speaker 1: enjoyed my conversation with Shirley Manson about her life, career,

3826
03:20:36,400 --> 03:20:40,480
Speaker 1: used on relationships, sexuality, and so much more. I might

3827
03:20:40,560 --> 03:20:44,080
Speaker 1: still be blushing by next week's episode. As always, I'd

3828
03:20:44,080 --> 03:20:45,880
Speaker 1: love to know what you think of the show, so

3829
03:20:46,120 --> 03:20:49,240
Speaker 1: email me at Bob at left sets dot com. Until

3830
03:20:49,320 --> 03:21:01,640
Speaker 1: next time, I'm Bob Lefts to me exact and me