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Speaker 1: Time is the greatest gift we can give and receive.

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Speaker 1: As we turn the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers

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Speaker 1: Squib is recognizing oncologists who help give patients something extraordinary,

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Speaker 1: more time. The Time Back Campaign celebrates those everyday heroes

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Speaker 1: who are working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping

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Speaker 1: get patients more time to experience key moments like seeing

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Speaker 1: a child learned to ride a bike or a long

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Speaker 1: awaited vacation. As we turn back our clocks, let's pause

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Speaker 1: to thank the doctors who make a difference every day.

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Speaker 1: Discover more about the Time Back Campaign and join Bristol

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Speaker 1: Myers Squib and celebrating the physicians who give the gift

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Speaker 1: of more time at BMS dot com slash time back.

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Speaker 2: Pete Headseth is increasingly a political liability for him, and

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Speaker 2: the evidence of that is that even Republican senators frustrated

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Speaker 2: by what the absence of answers on the Venezuela stuff

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Speaker 2: have begun to talk about taking measures to force the

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Speaker 2: Pentagon and answers. He's clearly losing part of his own party.

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Speaker 1: David Sanger is one of the longest serving correspondents at

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, and as the White House and

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Speaker 1: National Security correspondent, he has been following Donald Trump's every

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Speaker 1: move for the last ten years. Given the state of

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Speaker 1: the world, we have a lot to talk about, from

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Speaker 1: the US bombing of votes in the Caribbean to the

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Speaker 1: latest in the negotiations between Ukraine and Russia. David Sanger,

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Speaker 1: it is great to see you and to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: I've often wondered in recent months, what would David say

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Speaker 1: about certain things that are happening in the world. I'm

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Speaker 1: lucky that I'm able to read your coverage in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times, but it's great to be able to

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Speaker 1: unpack these issues with you face to face. Recently said

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Speaker 1: that over the five presidencies that you've covered, you've never

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Speaker 1: seen a president seek to completely redefine the use of

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Speaker 1: the US military, not only abroad but at home in

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Speaker 1: a way that Donald Trump has. What did you mean

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Speaker 1: by that? Exactly, Katie.

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Speaker 2: It's great to be back with you in conversations we've

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Speaker 2: had now over many a decade. But I would say

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Speaker 2: that the military has always been the last resort that

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Speaker 2: a US president has turned to when you have a

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Speaker 2: crisis of nine to eleven proportions, or an uprising inside

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Speaker 2: the United States that cannot be contained by local police

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Speaker 2: and so forth, or you have the need to go

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Speaker 2: deter a major power China, Russia, and so forth. And

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Speaker 2: I think the last time that I was on your show,

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Speaker 2: we were discussing my new Cold Wars, which was basically

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Speaker 2: about the return of great power competition. And certainly you

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Speaker 2: would use the military in a deterrence mode forward deployed

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Speaker 2: in Europe, in the Pacific. But President Trump's got a

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Speaker 2: very different concept. It is in his mind. I think

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Speaker 2: the military is there as an instrument for him to use. However,

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Speaker 2: he sees fit to both centralize his own power at

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Speaker 2: home and frequently as a weapon of first resort abroad.

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Speaker 2: And we've seen that in recent times. So at home

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Speaker 2: parts pretty obvious. He is using the emergency powers of

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Speaker 2: the presidency to deploy National Guard to cities around the country,

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Speaker 2: mostly democratic cities, but cities around the country where there

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Speaker 2: is no noticeable emergency. There's crime. But in many of

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Speaker 2: the cities he's deployed them to, including where I am

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Speaker 2: right now, Wahington, DC, the crime levels have been going down.

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Speaker 2: It's not like there's some sudden surge that required the

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Speaker 2: presence of the National Guard. And we could debate why

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Speaker 2: it is he's doing this, whether it is to establish

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Speaker 2: that a federal force under his command can appear in

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Speaker 2: these cities, whether it is to intimidate local leaders, whether

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Speaker 2: it's to think ahead to the twenty twenty sixth election.

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Speaker 1: Or the twenty twenty eight election.

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Speaker 2: No, thinking ahead to twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Six really the mid term, the midterms.

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Speaker 2: And the reason I'm saying that, Katie is you may

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Speaker 2: recall it during his election disputes. In the election versus

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden in twenty twenty, he called for the use

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Speaker 2: of the National Guard to go out and seize voting machines. Now,

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Speaker 2: he never actually did this, and he was sort of

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Speaker 2: held back from his aids to do it because he believed,

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Speaker 2: or so he said that the vote had been tampered with,

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Speaker 2: and his concept was have the National Guard deal with this.

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Speaker 2: He couldn't get away with that. But there are some

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Speaker 2: people who wonder if by normalizing putting the National Guard

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Speaker 2: in cities, he's trying to set the predicate that the

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Speaker 2: National Guard would be there in election times. We don't

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Speaker 2: know this, We're just trying to figure out why it

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Speaker 2: is you would want to use the National Guard more

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Speaker 2: routinely in American cities.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think it is, David, I'm just curious.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you put out a couple of theories. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: why do you think he is so quick to use

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Speaker 1: military force or.

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Speaker 2: To use military forces? Right? Yes, in the in the

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Speaker 2: at home. He has not actually used military force at home,

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Speaker 2: right he is?

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Speaker 1: Why presence?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So the presence, I think, is to establish

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Speaker 2: that it's the federal govern not the local governments. And

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Speaker 2: you notice he's done this largely in cities and states

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Speaker 2: that are democratic controlled can report straight to him. So

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Speaker 2: to the other theories, I don't know. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: can only report to you the theories that have been

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Speaker 2: given to me in the course of my own reporting.

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Speaker 2: Now abroad, it's a little bit more complicated as you

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Speaker 2: would imagine. Usually you go on the spectrum of diplomacy first,

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Speaker 2: then coercion, economic sanctions and so forth, and then the

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Speaker 2: last resort is military force, because once you've used it,

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Speaker 2: it's expended. In other words, it's no longer sort of

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Speaker 2: the looming threat hanging behind it runs contrary to a

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Speaker 2: lot of the MAGA philosophy, which is that the US

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Speaker 2: should retreat behind high walls, use its military if the

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Speaker 2: US is attacked, don't get involved in internet disputes. When

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Speaker 2: you do, you end up in forever wars like Iraq

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan. So let's not do it. I've never believed

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Speaker 2: that that is the concept of America first that Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump had, from the moment that I first raised the

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Speaker 2: phrase with him, before he had ever used it in

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Speaker 2: an interview that Maggie Heman and I did with Trump

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Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen. I don't think he's an isolationist. I

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Speaker 2: think he's actually a unilateralist. And so his first big

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Speaker 2: use of the military abroad as president was the decision

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Speaker 2: to go bomb the three nuclear sites in Iran, But

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Speaker 2: that was a case where he knew the Iranians couldn't

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Speaker 2: shoot back, and in fact, they never got a shot

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Speaker 2: off at the bombers or the Tomahawk missiles that were

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Speaker 2: sent in. Now we have Venezuela, another country that has

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Speaker 2: military forces maybe one hundred and twenty five thousand, no

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Speaker 2: air Force or Navy to speak of, and he says

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Speaker 2: that this is to stop the drug trade. But it's

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Speaker 2: not clear why you'd bring in an aircraft carrier group

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Speaker 2: to pick up small speedboats, which, as he's demonstrated, before

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Speaker 2: the aircraft was on station, they could hit in other ways.

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Speaker 2: So here I think it's using the military as a

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Speaker 2: form of intimidation to back up his demands that he

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Speaker 2: wants Maduro to leave the country. Now, in the eighteen

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Speaker 2: eighties and eighteen nineties and earlier when this was done

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Speaker 2: by Europe and later on even by the US, it

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Speaker 2: had a name. It was called gunboat diplomacy, right, and

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Speaker 2: you would put your force off to intimidate a country

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Speaker 2: in an outcome. In fact, the British did this with

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Speaker 2: Venezuela in the eighteen nineties. And here again the question

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Speaker 2: is what are the motives. Is it purely drugs, is

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Speaker 2: it access to some of the world's largest oil reserves.

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Speaker 2: Is it a desire to get Maduro out and sort

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Speaker 2: of a bank shot for destabilizing Cuba. Again, you hear

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Speaker 2: all of these different theories. What's remarkable, though, is that

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Speaker 2: the president is doing this without an authorization to use

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Speaker 2: military force from Congress, much less a war declaration. And

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Speaker 2: you know, Defense Secretary Hegseth said at the cabinet meeting

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Speaker 2: that took place just a few hours before you and

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Speaker 2: I recorded this, that some of the decisions have been

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Speaker 2: made in the fog of war. And I thought that

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Speaker 2: was an interesting phrase for him to.

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Speaker 1: Use, quoting Robert McNamara, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, quoting McNamara. But there is no declared war here.

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Speaker 2: In fact, what they have told Congress is that they're

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Speaker 2: designating some terrorists so that they can go after individual

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Speaker 2: terrorist groups or individual terrorists who are moving drugs. It's

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Speaker 2: a bit of a stretch of the terrorism definition, but

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Speaker 2: it's hard to have a five war if you don't

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Speaker 2: have war.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to ask you about sort of all

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Speaker 1: the motives and what's been happening with all these boats

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Speaker 1: ostensibly carrying drugs. For administration that claims it is exhibiting

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Speaker 1: unparalleled transparency, it seems to me that we're getting very

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Speaker 1: little information, David, on the nature of these boats, what

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Speaker 1: they were carrying, who these people are, how many boats

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Speaker 1: have they struck so far? Hasn't it been more than twenty.

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Speaker 2: More than twenty, and more than eighty dead, so it's

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Speaker 2: a significant number. Look, you're not the only one to

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Speaker 2: feel this frustration. Those of us who cover the White

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Speaker 2: House day to day feel it, But so does Congress,

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Speaker 2: which sent letters requesting information soon after the first strike,

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Speaker 2: which was early September, and of the congressional committees tell

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Speaker 2: me they have not received answers, even though the administration

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Speaker 2: is well passed the statutory requirement of when they would

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Speaker 2: have to provide answers to an oversight committee. And this

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Speaker 2: isn't just like a casual request. Is there a requests

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Speaker 2: from the committees that do oversight for the Pentagon. I

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Speaker 2: think this administration sometimes confuses talking a lot, which the

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Speaker 2: president certainly does with the press, vastly more than the

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Speaker 2: Biden administration did, but certainly even more than President Obama

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Speaker 2: did more than Trump did, I would argue in the

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Speaker 2: first term, but they're confusing the volume of what they're

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Speaker 2: saying with whether or not they're really conveying information. So

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Speaker 2: they released an unclassified version of that first strike, but

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Speaker 2: didn't release the information that, in fact, there was a

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Speaker 2: second strike that was the one that ended up killing

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Speaker 2: at least two crew members who were hanging off the side.

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Speaker 2: So we went for months seeing an image that was

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Speaker 2: a snapshot of that first strike. You see the boat

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Speaker 2: on fire and so forth. But the critical issues that

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Speaker 2: were raised if you had seen the entire video never

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Speaker 2: appeared until story was broken by Washington Post a few days.

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Speaker 1: Ago, and the Washington Post claims that Pete Hegseth ordered

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Speaker 1: that second strike against that boat, and then the New

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Speaker 1: York Times maybe it was your reporting. David said it

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Speaker 1: was unclear if Secretary Hegseth had done that, and now

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Speaker 1: he is saying it was the commanding officer, And so

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Speaker 1: can you shed some light on the latest thinking. And additionally, David,

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Speaker 1: can you explain why that order constitutes a war crime?

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Speaker 2: So there are a couple of levels you have to

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Speaker 2: think about. First, any strike on civilians by the military

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Speaker 2: is considered a violation of the laws of war, also

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Speaker 2: domestic laws and the guidance that is given to US

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Speaker 2: soldiers in their training. You have seen and heard about

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Speaker 2: court martials that have happened when we have had military

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Speaker 2: knowingly strike civilians. So the first question is are any

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Speaker 2: of these strikes legal?

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Speaker 1: Are these people on these boats considered civilians? Isn't that

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Speaker 1: the question?

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Speaker 2: Well, you could be a drug trafficker and still be

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Speaker 2: a civilian because you are not in the military, right, Okay,

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Speaker 2: So the way to think about this, Katie is supposing

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Speaker 2: we saw a drug trafficker operating on the streets of Chicago.

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Speaker 2: I'm making this up. Okay, it's the US responsibility first,

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Speaker 2: or the responsibility of local law enforcement, to go try

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Speaker 2: to arrest that person, put them through the court process,

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Speaker 2: have a trial. They can't just go up in the

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Speaker 2: street and execute them. When the Philippine president was doing that,

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Speaker 2: a previous Philippine president a few years ago, we were

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Speaker 2: filing human rights violations claims right.

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Speaker 1: Right, and the military can't do that because it violates

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Speaker 1: the Posse Coomatatis Act.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's right. That would be in the US operating

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Speaker 2: in the international waters here. It's interesting that even the

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Speaker 2: Trump administration was not taking this approach through August. Instead,

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Speaker 2: what they were doing was sending the Coastguards, not the Navy,

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Speaker 2: the coast Guard, sometimes with Navy backup, to go hail

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Speaker 2: these boats and try to board them and arrest them. Now,

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Speaker 2: if the boats ran, which they frequently did, they would

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Speaker 2: have a sharpshooter get up and try to take out

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Speaker 2: the engine in the back, send the boat drifting, and

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Speaker 2: then go over and arrest them and put them through

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Speaker 2: the court process. And it's clunky and sometimes they get away.

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Speaker 2: But the fact of the matter is that was how

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Speaker 2: the US went about this until President Trump and Secretary

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Speaker 2: hegxaith I've decided to take this somewhat more extraordinary view

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Speaker 2: that you could go basically execute them, sink the boats,

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Speaker 2: know that you're going to kill everyone on the boats

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Speaker 2: under still classified Office of Legal Counsel judgment that these

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Speaker 2: are in fact terrorists, and therefore sort of twisting the

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Speaker 2: logic to get there. It would help Katie if they

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Speaker 2: were going to be truly transparent, if we could see

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Speaker 2: the Office of Legal Counsel authorization that is being used

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Speaker 2: to justify this. They have shown that to some in

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Speaker 2: Congress who've told me they find it very unconvincing, but

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Speaker 2: we haven't seen it in public, so.

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Speaker 1: We really don't know for sure if these boats that

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Speaker 1: they're destroying, if they are carrying drugs, or if the

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Speaker 1: people on them are drug dealers.

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Speaker 2: Right that's right now. They say they have intelligence syndicate

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Speaker 2: they are people who are familiar with this, more expert

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Speaker 2: in it than I am. Make the point that if

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Speaker 2: you are running drugs, you don't put eleven people on

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Speaker 2: the boat, because each one of those people is taking

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Speaker 2: up weight and space that could be used for more

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Speaker 2: profitable things like heroin, right, so they wonder whether some

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Speaker 2: of these boats are actually running illegal immigrants to Caribbean

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Speaker 2: islands where they may be trying to make their way

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Speaker 2: to the United States or elsewhere. But no, it's not

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Speaker 2: clear to us yet that the intelligence is correct.

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Speaker 1: Going back to who ordered that second air strike against

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Speaker 1: that boat when two survivors were reportedly hanging on to

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Speaker 1: the side of the boat, and someone said somehow there

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Speaker 1: was a second strike that killed them as well, do

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Speaker 1: you know who ordered that? Do you know what transpired?

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Speaker 2: We know the Secretary Headset said a few hours ago

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Speaker 2: that while he was watching the video live if he

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Speaker 2: had left and gone on to some meeting and didn't

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Speaker 2: see the two people hanging by the side of the boat,

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Speaker 2: so that was kind of hanging out to dry the

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Speaker 2: Special Operations commander who was running the command. We have

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Speaker 2: no evidence right now that Secretary Headsets issued an order

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Speaker 2: specific to a second.

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Speaker 1: Strike, despite the Washington Post reporting from two sources.

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Speaker 2: We have not been able to confirm that, and in

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Speaker 2: fact we've had people say the opposite. But it is

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Speaker 2: clear and Secretary Heagset himself concedes this that his orders

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Speaker 2: were to destroy the boats, kill their occupants, sink the

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Speaker 2: load of drugs. Now it might be more useful to

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Speaker 2: them if they're trying to prove these were drug runners,

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Speaker 2: if they actually arrested some of these because they would

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Speaker 2: be low level people, tried to turn them and figure

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Speaker 2: out who they're working for. Release the photograph the boat

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Speaker 2: with presumably bricks full of the drugs. That's not what

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Speaker 2: they're doing. What they're doing is releasing photographs of the

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Speaker 2: boats burning in the ocean.

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Speaker 1: Now we'll hear how oncologists can be supported in their

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Speaker 1: critical work and the way companies like Bristol Meyers Squib

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Speaker 1: are recognizing their role in helping give time back to patients. Monica,

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Speaker 1: I think that sometimes we think doctors are superhuman and

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Speaker 1: we forget that they are people too, just like their patients.

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Speaker 3: I remember often the most challenging thing as my job

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Speaker 3: as a doctor wasn't about whether I'd made the right

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Speaker 3: diagnosis or the right treatment choice. It was the emotions

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Speaker 3: that I carried home thinking about patients and their family

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Speaker 3: and what they were going through. So we're really excited

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Speaker 3: to unveil this new campaign. It's called a Time Back campaign.

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Speaker 3: And the idea is to really acknowledge that positive side

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Speaker 3: of oncologists' roles.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little more about this campaign, Monica, and

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Speaker 1: how it came about.

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Speaker 3: As a farceutical company, we're so passionate about the science,

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Speaker 3: we live and breathe that every day, but as a

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Speaker 3: very personal relationship between a patient and their oncologist, and

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Speaker 3: we really wanted to take the time to celebrate.

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Speaker 1: That and the gift they're giving so many people, the

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Speaker 1: gift of time, and clearly this is something that is

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Speaker 1: very personal to me. So I feel very honored and

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Speaker 1: privileged to be part of this campaign. So thank you

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Speaker 1: so much, doctor Monica Shah.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Katie. It's been a real pleasure.

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Speaker 3: Please come and visit us at BMS dot com slash

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Speaker 3: time back, and you can learn more there about our

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Speaker 3: commitments oncologists and the time back that they potentially can

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Speaker 3: give to patients.

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Speaker 1: As we've heard, oncologists deserve to be reminded of the

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Speaker 1: gratitude we feel for the work that they do every day,

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Speaker 1: so I hope you'll join me in honoring the impact

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Speaker 1: they have on so many patients and their families. Time

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Speaker 1: is the greatest gift we can give and receive as

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Speaker 1: we turn the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers Squib

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Speaker 1: is recognizing oncologists who help give patients something extraordinary, more time.

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Speaker 1: The Time Back campaign celebrates those everyday heroes who are

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Speaker 1: working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping get patients

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Speaker 1: more time to experience key moments like seeing a child

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Speaker 1: learned to ride a bike or a long awaited vacation.

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Speaker 1: As we turn back our clocks, let's pause to thank

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Speaker 1: the doctors who make a difference every day. Discover more

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Speaker 1: about the Time Back Campaign and join Bristol Meyers Squib

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Speaker 1: and celebrating the physician who get the gift of more

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Speaker 1: time at BMS dot com slash time back. Can you

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Speaker 1: connect the dots for us? David? What do these boats

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Speaker 1: reportedly containing drugs headed? I guess to the US, right.

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Speaker 2: We're not certain that most of the stuff headed from

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Speaker 2: the Caribbean goes to Europe.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so even more confounding, what does that have to

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Speaker 1: do with Maduro and trying to get him to exit

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Speaker 1: stage left?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a really good question. The administration has named

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Speaker 2: Meduro as the leader of a cartel of the SUNS

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Speaker 2: that includes much of the Venezuelan leadership, which they maintain

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Speaker 2: is profiting from the drug trade. Our reporting from the

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Speaker 2: region suggests the cartel of the SUNS isn't actually a cartel,

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Speaker 2: so it may be a legal construct for them to

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Speaker 2: name him as a drug leader rather than as a

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Speaker 2: national leader. They argue that Maduro is illegally in office

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Speaker 2: because he fixed the last election. That's our reasonable argument

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Speaker 2: is one the Biden administration made. What they haven't done, Katie,

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Speaker 2: is give us the theory of the case about Let's

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Speaker 2: say they're successful beyond their wildest dreams, and Maduro suddenly

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Speaker 2: decides it really is time for that long delayed family

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Speaker 2: vacation in Cuba, Okay, and he's out, maybe with our help,

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Speaker 2: maybe not just as a thought experiment. Do we then

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Speaker 2: own the outcome? Do you turn the country over to

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Speaker 2: a political opposition that's got its own issues as well?

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Speaker 2: Do you know if the military will be loyal to

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Speaker 2: that opposition or loyal to Maduro or seek a third

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Speaker 2: way out? In otherways? Have you triggered instability along the way?

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Speaker 2: And this, of course is exactly what MAGA has rightly

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Speaker 2: criticized the United States for for not thinking out ahead

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Speaker 2: before Iraq, and not thinking out ahead for Afghanistan, which

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Speaker 2: was supposed to be a model democracy in Southeast Asia,

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Speaker 2: and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's talking about what's next. And as Colin pal used

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Speaker 1: to say, you break it, you take it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and instead the Taliban took over.

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Speaker 1: So they're not only thinking about that, but also you're

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Speaker 1: wondering why this has become such a huge foreign policy priority, right,

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Speaker 1: and how much of this US military action has to

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Speaker 1: do with Venezuela's significant oil reserves.

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Speaker 2: David, that's right, and the oil reserves are what present

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Speaker 2: and Trump talks about a lot to his aides. We

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Speaker 2: are told he does not talk about it very much

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Speaker 2: in public. Certainly this is a topic he's been fixated

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Speaker 2: on before. Remember with Syria that we took the oil

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Speaker 2: lines you would hear during the first term, and there

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Speaker 2: are similar questions here now on this topic. That then

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Speaker 2: raises the question, if it's about oil, then this really

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Speaker 2: is gunboat diplomacy. The US does have some access to Chevron,

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Speaker 2: which still has some limited licenses in Venezuela. There is

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Speaker 2: good reporting that Maduro had made an offer to the

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Speaker 2: United States to give significant access to Venezuela's oil supplies

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Speaker 2: in an effort to preserve his own role, and the

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Speaker 2: President Trump turned that down. So it's a little hard

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Speaker 2: to figure out. And of course there are people hovering

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Speaker 2: around this White House who of course have interests in

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Speaker 2: trying to get at some of that oil.

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Speaker 1: Not only get it some of that oil, but some

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Speaker 1: people are talking about this is really about South Florida

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Speaker 1: as much as the United States. Can you explain about

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Speaker 1: Marco Rubio's vested interest in Austein Maduro and why he

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Speaker 1: is so joneseen to do that?

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Speaker 2: So Rubio has been a huge critic of the Maduro

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Speaker 2: presidency during even the time he was a senator. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot to be critical of. Let's not put on

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Speaker 2: rose colored glasses here, but sure I was going to say, yes,

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Speaker 2: Maduro is a brutal, authoritarian leader who fixed elections in

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Speaker 2: order to stay in power. The question is is it

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Speaker 2: the role of the United States to go out and

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Speaker 2: displace him militarily and as we discussed before, to own

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Speaker 2: the result. We did that a lot in the nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 2: and this was in the days when the CIA would

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Speaker 2: overthrow governments throughout the region. It didn't work out so well,

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Speaker 2: and that history is worth noting. Secret Rubio himself is

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Speaker 2: the son of Cuban immigrants that came in the fifties

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Speaker 2: before Castro really took over. He was born in the

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Speaker 2: United States in nineteen seventy one, so it was well

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Speaker 2: after all of that. But there are some who believe that,

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Speaker 2: given the tight link between Cuba and Venezuela, that he's

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Speaker 2: trying to break that link, and that this is truly

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Speaker 2: a play about Cuba more than it is about Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: And obviously about Castro's Cuba, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, and the post Castro Cuba.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. You've covered so many secretaries of Defense. I've

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Speaker 1: got to ask you, David, what your experience and your

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Speaker 1: observations are covering Secretary Pete Hexa.

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Speaker 2: Well, I haven't had much experience covering Secretary Hegseth because

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Speaker 2: I've never talked to him. You saw what happened to

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Speaker 2: what he called mainstream media, and he first ousted our

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Speaker 2: Pentagon reporters. I've never had a Pentagon pass so I

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Speaker 2: was not involved in this. From the press room inside

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Speaker 2: the Pentagon, where The Times has had a desk, I

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Speaker 2: think since the Pentagon opened in nineteen forty nine. The

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Speaker 2: place could use a good cleaning, so you know, having

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Speaker 2: everybody move out wasn't all about.

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Speaker 1: I covered the Pentagon, and you're right. I covered it

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Speaker 1: with Fred Francis, who chained smoked Salem cigarettes all day

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Speaker 1: long in a tiny little space, and you're right, not

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Speaker 1: the most glamorous working conditions. But in all seriousness, I

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Speaker 1: found it outrageous what this current administration did, specifically Pete Hegseth,

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Speaker 1: when it came to the Pentagon press Corps asking them

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Speaker 1: to sign a paper or to go to the Pentagon

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Speaker 1: to get clearance for any story they were covering or

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Speaker 1: going to be reporting on, and not only limiting their

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Speaker 1: ability to move around the Pentagon. I mean, that is

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Speaker 1: much less repugnant to me than this idea of getting

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Speaker 1: approval from the Pentagon itself for their reporting. It is

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Speaker 1: so outrageous, so offensive, and so wrong. I was surprised

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Speaker 1: that people weren't up in arms.

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Speaker 2: More about that, well, first, Katie, I'm savoring the image

438
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: of you in the disgusting confines of the Pentagon press

439
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: room here. This is a dissonant concept in my mind.

440
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: I would pay a lot for photos from that era I.

441
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: Learned a lot, and I loved covering the Pentagon. Ya.

442
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: I'm sure you did, and we all have. I've not

443
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: covered the Pentagon day to day by.

444
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: Colleagues, but you're obviously a national security experts, so you

445
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: have very good sources in that building.

446
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: I'm sure I've got a few. And what's interesting is

447
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: I think you've seen from all the reporting on Venezuela,

448
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: and we were discussing moving the reporters out of the

449
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: pentic Gon did not solve Secretary headcess problem of people

450
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: in his building talking right, those stories have appeared from

451
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: some place. To your more serious point, I can't imagine

452
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: anything more at odds with the First Amendment, the traditions

453
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: of a free and independent press, the concept that to

454
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: have a free society you need a free press. Then

455
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 2: a Secretary of Defense asking news organizations to sign an

456
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 2: agreement that says you will not solicit information, not just

457
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: classified information, but even unclassified information from people other than

458
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: the Pentagon Press Office, which is to say you will

459
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: cease reporting exactly. That was essentially the message of that,

460
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: and it was so outrageous, Katie, the guess who wouldn't

461
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: sign it. It wasn't just the New York Times. It

462
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: wasn't just the Murdoch owned Wall Street Journal. It wasn't

463
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: just the Weston Post Fox News, where the last time

464
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: I checked, Pete Hegseth worked for many years as a commentator,

465
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: refused to sign the document and turned in their press

466
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: pass with everybody else and left the building. That tells

467
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: you something.

468
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: I'd love your very candid response to this question, David,

469
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: is Pete Hegseth on thin ice in your view?

470
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: Hard to know? President Trump has said repeatedly to some

471
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: of his aides that he thinks a mistake he made

472
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: in the first turn was firing members of his cabinet,

473
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: his national security staff when they came under pressure, and

474
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: that it just to his mind, led his adversaries to

475
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: seek blood elsewhere, and so he wasn't going to give in.

476
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: And in fact, with the exception of his first national

477
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: security advisor who was moved to the United Nations, he

478
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 2: has not fired anybody in his cabinet. Right, and I'm

479
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: not just talking in the national security sphere. A Robert F.

480
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: Kennedy Junior still has a job, right. Pete Hegseth still

481
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: has a job, and many others still have a job.

482
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: Who have been in plenty of controversies along the way.

483
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: What I would say, and what I wrote in The

484
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: Times yesterday with Helene Cooper, is that Pete Hegseth is

485
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: increasingly a political liability for him. And the evidence of

486
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: that is that even Republican senators frustrated by what the

487
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: absence of answers on the Venezuela stuff, have begun to

488
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: talk about taking measures to force the Pentagon and answers.

489
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: He's clearly losing part of his own party. You briefly raised,

490
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: and I didn't answer for you, Katie, a really good question,

491
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: which is, even if you accept that the US military

492
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: should be doing what it's doing in Venezuela, if we

493
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: set that aside, is this where you want to go

494
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: focus your military force? I mean, the National Security strategy

495
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: issued in the first Trump administration when hr McMaster was

496
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: the National Security Advisor, rightly said that the major challenges

497
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: facing the United States are an incredibly increasingly powerful China

498
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: with new nuclear capability ahead on many key technologies, including

499
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: military technologies, a fast growing military budget, and an increasingly

500
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: aggressive Russia that of course was at the time threatening

501
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: had not yet taken over parts of Ukraine. If you're

502
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: thinking that that is actually where you need to focus

503
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: your attention, and I think the first Trump administration was

504
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: dead on right on that topic. It does raise the question,

505
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: why are you keeping fifteen sixteen percent of your naval

506
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: force in the Caribbean to go deal with Venezuela.

507
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you that question. Why are they.

508
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: It does not fit the national security strategy and priorities

509
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: that were set in the first administration. In the second administration,

510
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: if you listen to Marco Rubio, it's a little bit

511
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: more of a we're going to focus on the Western

512
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: hemisphere first we live here, which to some officials sounds

513
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: more like the old spheres of influence concept, again from

514
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds, but in this case, where Russia would

515
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: be the biggest power near Europe, disturbing to our NATO allies,

516
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: China would be the biggest power in the Pacific, we

517
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 2: would be the biggest power in the Atlantic Transatlantic area

518
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: and this hemisphere, and you kind of divide up the world.

519
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that worked in the eighteen hundreds. It

520
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: certainly doesn't work in the twenty twenties. Why, Because we

521
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 2: are a global economy, we worked from global technology. Our

522
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: interests are around the world. And every time that we

523
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: have thought that if we just proceeded to our shores

524
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: protected by oceans in our concept, that we would avoid

525
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: being dragged into greater conflicts, it never worked. It didn't work.

526
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 2: Back then Teddy Roosevelt and William McKinley ended up taking

527
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: over what the Philippines wamb So War and so on.

528
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 2: We got sucked into World War One, we got sucked

529
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: into World War Two, We got sucked into the Korean War,

530
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: the Vietnam War, and post nine to eleven, the wars

531
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: in the Middle East. All of that suggests to you

532
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: that we need to think not about the world as

533
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: you would define it by slicing up a globe, as

534
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: if it was an orange, but instead how you deal

535
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: with the interconnections of these economies. In the old concept

536
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: of this, China was not one of the world's great

537
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: economic and trading powers and financial powers today it is

538
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: even in the old the first Cold War, we didn't

539
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: need anything from our main adversary, the Soviet Union, with

540
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: the possible exception of vodka and caviat And you know,

541
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: we wouldn't want to go give that up for sure.

542
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: But if you had to live without it, you could.

543
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: You can't live without some of the things that we

544
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: buy from China, including the rare oaths, and they can't

545
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: live without some of the technology they buy from US.

546
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: What do you make of this retreat for the United

547
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: States as a global leader, Trump has diminished the importance

548
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: of NATO. I think in some ways it's appropriate that

549
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: they're paying more right their fair share. I think a

550
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: lot of people sort of agreed with him on that.

551
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: But in terms of retreating not just the world's policemen,

552
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: which many people objected to, but as a real leader,

553
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: or do you think the US has I mean, Trump

554
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: keeps saying how he has solved how many seven or

555
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: eight wars around the world.

556
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: The number keeps moving, Yeah.

557
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: Right, And I guess you would say that he took

558
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: a big important role in the Middle East with Israel

559
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: and Gaza. He is taking a big role with Ukraine

560
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: and Russia. But this focus on the Western hemisphere at

561
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: the risk of not minding the store elsewhere, seems perplexing.

562
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: In many ways.

563
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: It is perplexing. First of all, you've just mentioned a

564
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: bunch of conflicts the president has entered into either diplomatically

565
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 2: or militarily in the case of Iran. As I started here,

566
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 2: that are well outside the hemisphere. So I'm not sure

567
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 2: that Donald Trump believes in this hemispheric spheres of influence

568
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: concept because he's obviously operated outside the Western hemosphere. Second,

569
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: I think what you have seen him do is dismantle

570
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 2: the system that the US set up after World War

571
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 2: Two that was supposed to keep us from falling into

572
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: another World war. We had just fought two of them

573
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 2: in the space of thirty or forty years and began

574
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: to use the instruments of institutions that were dominated by

575
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: American values to keep the peace. And that was the

576
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: era when NATO was created in the late nineteen forties,

577
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 2: the World Bank, the IMF, all these international institutions which

578
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 2: the president believes got twisted to the point that the

579
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: US was paying and others were free riding. And I

580
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: agree with you. I think one of the best things

581
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: that he did in his first year here was pushed

582
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 2: the Europeans to pay for more of their own defense,

583
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: and certainly that was long overdue. We'd heard it from Obama,

584
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 2: We'd heard it from President Trump in the first term,

585
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 2: we heard it from Biden. He actually began to get traction.

586
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: But there's a fine line between that and then pulling

587
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 2: back from institutions that actually benefit the United States along

588
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: the way. I was trained by Joe ni the man

589
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: known for the creation of the phrase soft power, when

590
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: I was an undergrad, and went on to a long

591
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: and fruitful many decades of working alongside Joe. And he

592
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 2: just passed away a few months ago or earlier this year.

593
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: But he had this great phrase, which is when the

594
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: Berlin Wall came down, it wasn't because we aimed our

595
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 2: biggest missiles and our air power at it. It's because

596
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: it was taken apart from the inside, brick by brick,

597
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: by people who had grown up listening to the BBC

598
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: and Voice of America. And I think we've forgotten that

599
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: somewhere along the way.

600
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

601
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

602
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter

603
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Let

604
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: me ask you about a couple of other kind of

605
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: stories in your Baileywick if you will, David before we go,

606
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 1: because I know you have work to do and things

607
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: to report on. But one was this whole Ukraine Russia agreement.

608
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: I know that Special ENVOYE. Steve Wickcough along with Jared Kushner,

609
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's son in law. They're both meeting with Vladimir

610
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: Putin in Moscow to discuss the administration's latest peace proposal

611
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: an earlier one. The twenty eight points you wrote in

612
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: the earlier plan, you said readlight. They had been drafted

613
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: in the Kremlin. I think many many people agree with

614
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: you on that assessment.

615
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 2: And you know what, it turned out parts of it

616
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: had been as we right, right well.

617
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: And then given to President Trump right somehow, or or

618
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: Witkoff who brought them to President Trump. So what the

619
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: hell is going on here, David? With the Russia Ukraine negotiations,

620
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: most people thought Ukraine, they're the good guys in this scenario.

621
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: Why are they getting screwed?

622
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: The view of Ukraine has changed with President Trump's election.

623
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: I mean jd Vance was always of the view that

624
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: the US should not be expending money technology defending Ukraine.

625
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: Was he okay with Russia and vading Ukraine.

626
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 2: It's interesting because you've heard both him and President Trump,

627
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 2: mostly President Trump work on this narrative in which we

628
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: created the conditions that forced Russia to go do this right,

629
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: expanding NATO to the east, which was a long debate

630
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 2: in the US. You remember it and covered it when

631
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: that was underway, as did I. That Ukraine's increasing drift

632
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 2: toward the European Union and all forced Russia's hand, which

633
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: is essentially the narrative that Vladimir Putin promotes himself.

634
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: Do you think that's bullshit?

635
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: My own view is Ukraine was an independent country. That's

636
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: what happened when the Soviet Union broke up. I realized

637
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 2: that Putin believes that that was one of the great

638
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,959
Speaker 2: disasters of modern times. But the result was it had

639
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: sovereign rights as an independent country. And when you read

640
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: the twenty eight points in that leaked early proposed agreement,

641
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: the reason it seemed so objectionable was not only the

642
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: land issues, which involved giving to Russia all the territory

643
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: it had taken and some of the territory it hadn't

644
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: even taken yet, but also because of its loss of sovereignty.

645
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 2: So as you read through the points, what did it

646
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: require that Ukraine could not have a military force larger

647
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 2: than six hundred thousand, that it could not have missiles

648
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: that would have the range to reach Moscow in Saint Petersburg,

649
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 2: that it had to hold an election within one hundred days,

650
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: which I think Putin was guessing that President Lensky would

651
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: probably lose. There was no restriction in it on the

652
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: size of the Russian military, there was no restriction on

653
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 2: the range of the Russian missile force.

654
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: And also by the way Ukraine could join NATO.

655
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 2: Ukraine couldn't join NATO. There was no requirement that Russia

656
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: holds free elections within one hundred days, right, So it

657
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: was a quite one sided Putin's view of the world

658
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: kind of agreement. I think that was pretty shocking. And

659
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: that's when you saw Marco Rubio, who you recall was

660
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: a big supporter of Ukraine when he was in the Senate,

661
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: sort of step in and get the thing rewritten down

662
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: to about twenty points and put in brackets, which is

663
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: to say, to be negotiated later all of these points

664
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: of contention. The problem is, as he made the agreement

665
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 2: more and more acceptable to the Ukrainians, it became less

666
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: and less acceptable to Vladimir Putin. And while we don't

667
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: know what happened in the meeting yet, between mister Witkoff

668
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 2: and mister Putin, I think it's a pretty good bet

669
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: that the United States will not see Putin call up

670
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: and say, yeah, where do I sign? You're going to

671
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 2: see him push back really hard. And the real question

672
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 2: is does President Trump care that much about what the

673
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: provisions of a piece agreement are or would he just

674
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: like to get a piece agreement this month so that

675
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 2: when we look at the year twenty twenty five and

676
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 2: his nomination goes for the Nobel Peace Prize, he will

677
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 2: have that one to add to that list of six

678
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: or seven.

679
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: Do you really think that's what is motivating him?

680
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,479
Speaker 2: Look, he has explicitly said this would be the big

681
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: one in his list in the nomination.

682
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so sick to be strategizing and executing

683
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: foreign policy based on one man's rabid and insatiable desire

684
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 1: to get the Nobel Peace Prize.

685
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: It is an extraordinary set of objectives.

686
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: Spoken like a true New York Times reporter.

687
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: You do have to say that there was an American

688
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 2: president the Nobel Peace Prize for ending a war with Russia.

689
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 2: It was Teddy Roosevelt in nineteen oh four for the

690
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: Treaty of Portsmouth, which ended the Russo Japanese War. Was

691
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: a little before year in my time for coverage of

692
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: this stuff.

693
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: Okay, but was he like desperately campaigning for it?

694
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 2: No, I don't think he openly campaigned for it, at

695
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: least not from what history I have read. I could

696
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: be wrong on that, but I can tell you that

697
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: Donald Trump knows that. And I can tell you that

698
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: Donald Trump knows that Barack Obama won a Nobel Peace

699
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: Prize just for not being George W. Bush early in

700
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 2: his presidency, so this is high up on his list.

701
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: Can I, in the minutes we have left, just ask

702
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 1: you about the shooting of these two National Guard troops.

703
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: One woman was killed a National Guard member. The other

704
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: I believe is still in critical condition in the hospital.

705
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the latest is on his condition,

706
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: but this shooting was by an Afghan national. He once

707
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: served in a CIA supported zero unit. Can you tell

708
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 1: me about the work he did in Afghanistan and the

709
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: reaction to this killing if you believe it's commensurate with

710
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: this crime in terms of what the administration wants to

711
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: do with many Afghan nationals that were brought here after

712
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:28,959
Speaker 1: the end of that war.

713
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: Well, first, let's say this was a huge and awful tragedy.

714
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: And my office here in Washington is right near the site,

715
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 2: and when you walk by it these days I just

716
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: did a few hours ago. You see the flowers that

717
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 2: are set up there where these two wonderful young Guard

718
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: troops were ambushed. I mean, that's the only word you

719
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 2: can use for it. You can't go walk by it

720
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 2: without your heart being wrenched and a tear coming to

721
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: your eye, right outside the subway metro entrance here in DC.

722
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: I was not here the day that it happened, but

723
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: some of my colleagues actually heard the shots. This was

724
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 2: clearly a highly disturbed person. He was vetted, and obviously

725
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 2: there are holes in the vetting system when he came over,

726
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: But it looks like that most of the symptoms that

727
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 2: he developed on basing this on the reporting of others,

728
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: I have not done any came after he arrived in

729
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 2: the United States. He was ultimately given asylum during the

730
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: Trump administration. During this Trump administration earlier this year, at

731
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 2: least as far as I have read, again, I was

732
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 2: away during the Thanksgiving holiday and was not doing any

733
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: independent reporting on this. We owe the people of Afghanistan

734
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 2: who worked with the CIA, with the military, with news

735
00:47:54,440 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: organizations a huge debt, and worked really hard to get

736
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: them out of Afghanistan when the Taliban were taking over.

737
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 2: There were a lot of mistakes made both during the

738
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: first Trump turn in getting them out earlier despite what

739
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 2: the laws of Congress had passed, some of which were

740
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 2: overly complicated. The Biden administration moved too slowly, clearly executed

741
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: incredibly badly on the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Actually, I argued

742
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 2: in my book it was such a disaster it actually

743
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 2: made them work better when Ukraine happened and the invasion

744
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: and the team came and coalesced. But you're always going

745
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: to make mistakes. The history of the people who we

746
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 2: let in to the country and these is that very

747
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 2: very few of them get into serious trouble. So then

748
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: the question is is it the right response to then

749
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 2: turn around and block a whole group of people from

750
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: coming in based on their nationality, their religious belief whether

751
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 2: they come from what the President has referred to in

752
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: recent times as hellhole countries and so forth. And I

753
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 2: just don't see that you solve your problem that way.

754
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: There are certainly issues with vetting and certainly issues with

755
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 2: mental health care. But I'm not sure you take that

756
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: out on an entire class of people who were not

757
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: involved in this tragic incident.

758
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: Not only that, David, but my understanding is that many

759
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: of these Afghans who were really critical to the US

760
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: mission in Afghanistan after the US left, would face almost

761
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: certain death, yes, from the Taliban, and I think that

762
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: is being left out of some of the reporting when

763
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 1: we're talking about these refugees. I want to read to

764
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: you what the Wall Street Journal editorial board recently wrote. Quote.

765
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 1: Some will say this means the US should never admit

766
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: such refuge jeez. But the alternative is abandoning allies who

767
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: assist Americans in war to the retribution of our enemies.

768
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: The fate of Afghans men and women who worked with

769
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,479
Speaker 1: the US has often been brutal. You can be sure

770
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: Americans will fight overseas again, and our troops will need

771
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: allies on the ground to succeed. How many will assist

772
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 1: us if they believe there will be no exit for

773
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: them if the US leaves with the enemy Triumphant.

774
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 2: Couldn't imagine a more cogent argument exactly right. I mean,

775
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: you're not going to win wars, conflicts, or prevent wars

776
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 2: without allies, and sometimes you have to make promises to

777
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 2: take care of them and their families if things go south.

778
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 2: We made that promise to the Afghans.

779
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: David, what about when Donald Trump is no longer president?

780
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: Will the old world order, so to speak, be back

781
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: in vogue.

782
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: That's a great question question I'd been trying to struggle

783
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: with as I think about the world as it's unfolded

784
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 2: since Nicold Wars came out a year ago, because the

785
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 2: greatest force of disruption in the world, the Western world anyway,

786
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 2: at that time, has been us, which we're not always

787
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: one hundred percent accustomed to. The best comparison, the best

788
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 2: analogy I can give to you, Katie, is the White

789
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: House itself. The next president can come and scrape the

790
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 2: gold off the Oval Office walls. It's pretty striking when

791
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 2: you step in there. These days. The next president can

792
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 2: undo executive orders, but the next president can't rebuild institutions

793
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: that have been completely dismantled. And when you rebuild them,

794
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 2: you would want to rebuild them for the current era,

795
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: not for the era in which they were created. Just

796
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: as the next president will not be able to go

797
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 2: rebuild the East wing of the White House, right, You're

798
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 2: going to end up with a ballroom, and you're either

799
00:51:57,719 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: going to have to amend it or deal with it,

800
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 2: or live it. And the fact of matter is some

801
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 2: of the changes that that Trump administration is making you

802
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 2: will not be able to go undo, and some of

803
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 2: them you might not even want to undo, but you

804
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 2: would want to rebuild something. What strikes me the most

805
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: about this administration is we understand what they want to

806
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 2: tear down USAID, Voice of America Aid to Ukraine. We

807
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 2: don't understand what they want to go build to enhance

808
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 2: American power for the next century. They are much more

809
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 2: clear about what they don't like than what their plan

810
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 2: is for the future.

811
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: David Sanger, it's so great to see you. Thank you

812
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: so much for thank you your insights and for this conversation.

813
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for your reporting and for the hard work

814
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: you put in every single day. Thank you well.

815
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: Thank you Katie. As you know from having had these jobs,

816
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,720
Speaker 2: it is is one of the great privileges in American

817
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 2: journalism but also in American society that we have a

818
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 2: First Amendment that lets us keep doing this, and it's

819
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 2: one of our most treasured remnants of the Constitution and

820
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: one that I think through whatever administration is in place,

821
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 2: we have to be sure to protect. And so we've

822
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 2: all got to go to work each day with that

823
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 2: in mind.

824
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: Amen to that. Amen to that. Thanks David.

825
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: Great to see you, Katie, Take care.

826
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

827
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

828
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,600
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829
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Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

830
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Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

831
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,

832
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: Katie Couric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

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834
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844
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