1 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: Crystal Mitchell, a thirty year old mother of two, was 2 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: dating a thirty seven year old former marine bodybuilder and dad, 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: Raymond MacLeod. On June fifteenth, Lay sixteenth, they're visiting friends 4 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: in San Diego on Mission Gorge. 5 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 2: They decide to go out for some drinks at a 6 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 2: local bar. 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,319 Speaker 1: While at the bar, Crystal and Raymond get into some 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 1: type of argument. Raymond slaps her. Another man at the 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: bar tries to intervene, and the two men get into 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: a fight. The couple left the bar and returned to 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: the apartment where they were staying at the seventy six 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 1: hundred block of Mission Gorge. 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: There is video from the. 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: Elevator where Raymond put his hand around Crystal's throat and 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: moves her toward the apartment. The next day, Crystal was 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: found inside the apartment's guest room dead. She had been 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: strangled and beaten, and there was a trail of blood 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: from the apartment to the elevated door. Raymond was nowhere 19 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: to be found. Please welcome a very special guest to 20 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: Zone seven, Josephine Wincel, Crystal's mama. Listen, y'all, y'all heard 21 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: those stories about Mama's lifting cars off children, rushing into fires, 22 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: jumping between. 23 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 2: A child and a bear. Well, let me tell you 24 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: about Josephat when Crystal's case went. 25 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: Cold and nobody was looking for her, her mama looked 26 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,279 Speaker 1: for her without fear. 27 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: Here's the deal, Josephine. 28 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: You know how how I feel about you and how 29 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: I admire you, and just there's not enough accolades I 30 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: could say about how you are one of the most 31 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: incredible people I've ever met. But why don't we start 32 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: and you just tell us about Crystal. 33 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: Well, Crystal was thirty. She had just turned thirty on 34 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: May twenty first. She was killed in June tenth. She 35 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: was a beautiful woman inside out. As much as she 36 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: was on the outside, she wasn't the inside. She was 37 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: very trusting, she was caring, She loved God, you know, 38 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: she prayed. And she was married to the children's father 39 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 2: who was injured in Moar. He was riding in a 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: vehicle that ran over an ied and therefore, you know 41 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: he experienced severe PTSD and some other issues. And this 42 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: is why I'm raising the children. But Crystal was a 43 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: funny gown. She was a go getter. I mean, she 44 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: purchased her own home with her own money at twenty 45 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 2: one years old. She was determined to make it for 46 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 2: her children. She had dreams and visions and ideas, and 47 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: you know, because she was a single mom, she was 48 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: also looking for a partner. She was looking for someone 49 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 2: that can love her and love her children equally. And 50 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 2: I used to tell her stuff like, you know, be 51 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: careful of looking for someone. You know, you've got to 52 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: make sure this person loves children and they're safe to 53 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: be around, that sort of thing. You know, We've had 54 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: those conversations, and she was a great joy in my life. 55 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 2: I mean, she wasn't, you know, as normal child any 56 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: She was normal like you and I. You know, she 57 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: has her highs and her lows, and she has her 58 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: fun times and her downtimes. You know, she struggled as 59 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 2: a single mom, but she did it herself. She was 60 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: so determined to do it without my help that she 61 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: was away from Washington. Well she hated the rain anyway, 62 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: but she lived from Washington and she lived to Arizona 63 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: because she wanted the sun. And I was, you know, 64 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: kind of unsure, like you know, you're a single mom 65 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: moving away from your support. But I was proud of her. 66 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: I was proud of her because she wanted to prove 67 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: that she can do it. And she did, and she 68 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: worked hard, and she found babysitters. You know, Cheryl, she 69 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 2: never asked me for help. She never asked me for 70 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 2: financial help or anything like that. The only help would 71 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: be that, you know, I would go out there once 72 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 2: in a while every few months and be with the 73 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 2: kids if she wanted to do something. But she was, 74 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 2: you know, the life of the party, the light in 75 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 2: the dark, funny, she's caring, you know she I remember 76 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: her as a small child. She loved animals, loved love animals, 77 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: but a small child. She went through her picky bank 78 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: and collected her money and told me that she knew 79 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: I was helping a homeless family off the streets, and 80 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: she took her money and said here, you know, here's 81 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: my contribution help them. And there was a time in 82 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 2: school when there was a classmate she saw a girl 83 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: that couldn't participate in pe because she didn't have shoes. 84 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: She only had flip flops. And my daughter found out 85 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: what size she wore and came home, told me about 86 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: it and gathered what money she had, and I helped her. 87 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 2: She went and got shoes and put it in her locker. 88 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: You know, she's the type of girl. She's at the 89 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: store and she seen a handicap or senior citizen coming 90 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: to the door, she'd run and open it for her 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 2: for them. That's the kind of girl she was. She 92 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: always thought ahead. She was always planning my birthday gifts, 93 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: my Mother's Day gifts. She was always doing something special. 94 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: And she called me every day, every single day, at 95 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: least two times a day, once on the way to work, 96 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 2: and was of the way, how when she's going to work, 97 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: I'll hear her at the store looking for her sushi. 98 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 2: She loves sushi, and I'd hear her heels clacking and 99 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 2: she's walking around and missed out. And then at the 100 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: end of the day she called me and you know, 101 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: she's picked up the kids and everything and tell me 102 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: how our day went. So we were really connected this way, 103 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: you know, just to you painting that picture of her 104 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 2: heels clacking, I don't know that that got me a 105 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 2: little bit. 106 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: Josephine. And you know she was beautiful, there's no doubt 107 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: about that. And the way you're describing how she just 108 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: loved wide open and led with her heart. 109 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: Let's tell everybody. 110 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: Now, you have a background of law enforcement, and I 111 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: think that's relevant right now because you've had some training 112 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: and some experience. So when you meet the first husband, 113 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: when you meet you know, this man, people think, oh man, 114 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: you must see red flags quicker than other people. But 115 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: I want to be real clear, because this is October 116 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: and it's domestic violence. But and I want to remind 117 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: people the devil will not come at you like the devil. 118 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: And there are people that are experts at hiding who 119 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: they are. So when you meet somebody who's thirty seven 120 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: and a former marine and has had a family and 121 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,119 Speaker 1: is a dote and father himself and your daughter is happy, 122 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: they're most likely is not going to be in your 123 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: red flags. So tell us what it was like when 124 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: you first met MacLeod. 125 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: You know, I had never met him in person. She's 126 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: told me about him, you know, she at first she 127 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: was like, you know, there was this guy that was 128 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: coming around and kept staring at her, and you know, 129 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: I didn't take anything of it. And I mean he 130 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: was stalking her because she was so beautiful and he 131 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: was attracted to this beautiful girl. And and then the 132 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: next thing, you know, you know, I mean before that, 133 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: and you talked about domestic could be violence, you know, 134 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: month and domestic abuse. Before that. She had an ex boyfriend. 135 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: She had broken up already about six months, and she 136 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: was looking for her and he kept trying to get 137 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: back with her, and she was, you know, he was 138 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: stalking her. He was going to her gated community and 139 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 2: coming going in there and climbing in the back patio 140 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: and banging on her door and looking in her window 141 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: and her bedroom windows. I mean, he was stalking her. 142 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: Along comes the snake and I'm sure she's opened up 143 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: like wha, you know, you're big bodyguard looking and he 144 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: came at her as a doting dad. Oh yeah. He 145 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: loved his son and pretended he was a Christian. You know, 146 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: I always said, you know, as don't date people that 147 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 2: didn't believe in God, you know, pretending he was. And 148 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: later on I discovered a tattoo on him in Arabic 149 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: that says there is no God, and everything about his 150 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: life he lied. And he gave her a gun to 151 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: protect herself from him. And I remember that night when 152 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 2: she had called me and she said, Mom, he's out there, 153 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: but I have a gun. And you know the kids, 154 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: remember you know that when mommy took the trash out, 155 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: she had a gun, and so he gained her confidence 156 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: that way. I wish she had her gun that night. 157 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: I really wish she did. Tell us. How did you 158 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 2: find out? Well, usually when she's gone, especially you know, 159 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: I had her children with me. It was summertime, and 160 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 2: I told instead of you know, she's in Phoenix, Simon, Washington, 161 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 2: and instead of the kids being in sitters and me 162 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: flying out there, just send the kids here for a 163 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: couple of months and we'll take care of them during 164 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: the summer. And so they came to stay with us, 165 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: and you know, they were just barely five and six, 166 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 2: and you know, next thing, you know, she was going. 167 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: And I tried calling her that Thursday. She was going 168 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: traveling to San Diego from Phoenix on Thursday, and she 169 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 2: didn't respond. She texted me and said, hey, you know, 170 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: I can't talk. I'll talk to you later. And then 171 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 2: I text her something back about you know, you're going there. 172 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: I don't even know what this guy looks like, you know, 173 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: And then she texted me a couple of pictures, which 174 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: was all part of God's plan somehow, because those were 175 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: the pictures that were you know that I was able 176 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: to put out wanted posters about was him those pictures 177 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: and anyway, so I shouldn't respond. That Friday, I woke 178 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: up and it was the strangest feeling. It was just 179 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: it was just I felt like my universe was turned 180 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 2: upside down, like my body was off kilter, my spirit 181 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: was halfway in and half way out. It was the 182 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: most bizarre feeling I'd ever experienced, right, and I didn't 183 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: know what was going on. I just, you know, thought 184 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 2: maybe I was coming down with something. I wasn't sure. 185 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 2: It was just a weird feeling. So I had called 186 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: some friends and asked them to pray for me. I said, 187 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: pray for me. I don't know what's going on. I 188 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: just feel weird. I feel like like my universe was shaken, 189 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 2: and I have no clue why. Well, later on that day, 190 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 2: you know, I had text hey, how are you doing? 191 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: And no response, and I just went about my day. 192 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: And then I got concerned, you know, and I thought, well, 193 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 2: she had to respond, and this is not normal with her. 194 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: So I tried again, you know, texting, hey, you know, 195 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: what's going on? How you doing? How you get it 196 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: back with you know, no response and so I started 197 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: feeling like, well, this is unusual, this is not like her, 198 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: you know, unless she lost her phone or something. But 199 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: she'll respond right away, and she would be calling me anyway, 200 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: because I have her children, and she'd be checking in 201 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: I'm And I called her friend Diana, and I said, Diana, 202 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: have you heard from her, you know, from Crystal. She 203 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: said no, but I'm sure she's okay. She probably just 204 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: left her phone in the hotel. And you know, Diana 205 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: knows that, you know, you know, mom's a little kind 206 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: of always checking on her daughter and checking who she date. 207 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: So they thought I was a little bit Yeah, maybe 208 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 2: over projective, if you will. Yep, they always think that. 209 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 2: So she's like, oh, you know, she's fine, she's fine, 210 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: don't worry about it. Don't have to worry about it. 211 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 2: But I knew she was there. There was something telling 212 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 2: me something that was wrong. It was later that evening 213 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: when I got really really sick to my stomach and 214 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: I just wanted to throw up, and I was getting 215 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: really sick, and it just so happened my oldest sister 216 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: had just arrived here from Texas. Thank god, she was there, 217 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: and so I was telling her, you know, I don't 218 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: know why. I feel sick. My gosh, I feel like 219 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: something is wrong, something is wrong. And I started to 220 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 2: almost cry, you know, I said, no, I know something 221 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: is wrong in here. I know something's wrong. She was like, oh, 222 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 2: just calm down. You know how kids get. So around 223 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 2: that time, my husband texts her fall to saying, please 224 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: call your mom. She's having a meltdown here. And it 225 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: was about that time that the detective on the other 226 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 2: side I didn't know. He kept getting text messages, the 227 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: phone keeping buzzing, which was I was trying to get 228 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: over her. And finally he said, you know, whoever's trying 229 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: to get old of her is desperate, and he took 230 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: a break and went it, picked up her phone, and 231 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: then he called. He called my husband. Michael was my 232 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: husband's text message, and he saw that, so he called 233 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: and asked him who he was. And when I saw 234 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: that six p one nine call come in, I knew, 235 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: I knew. I just I just grabbed my ear and 236 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: I just especially when I saw his face and I 237 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: saw him say I'm her dad, and then I saw 238 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: his face drop and I saw him go pale. I knew. 239 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: I just grabbed my ears and I don't know why, 240 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: but I just covered my ears and I just started screaming. 241 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: I just started screaming, and you know, I remember just 242 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: dropping to the floor and just pounding on the floor saying, 243 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: you know, this can be I mean, God would never 244 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: do this to me. Never. Why would God do this 245 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: to me? Never? I was leading prayer and worship that morning. 246 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 2: Why would he do this to me? No way, you know. 247 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 2: And I kept saying to my husband, I know this 248 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: a mistake. Let's go, Let's go to San Diego. And 249 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: I tried to leave ows and they were restraining me, 250 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: and it was just a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible night. 251 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: And I, you know, even forgot the kids were upstairs, 252 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 2: and my sisters all came and they started taking the 253 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: kids out, and kids wanted to know what's wrong with Nana, 254 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: why she's screaming, and nobody would tell them and just 255 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: took them away. And and then the next day I 256 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: had to tell the kids, and it was the hardest 257 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: thing in the world to do. And you know, especially 258 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: when my grandson followed me around saying, you know, how 259 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: does she die? And I said, well, her heart stopped, 260 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: and he asked, well, was anybody there with her, And 261 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: I lied and I said down. The doctor was there. 262 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: I didn't know what to say. I didn't and so 263 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: when he asked me later, he said, so with my 264 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 2: heart just going to stop and die like that, you know, 265 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: That's when I thought, Oh my gosh, I mean, just 266 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: stop already. You know. I was just a wreck, you know, 267 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 2: and and you know, throughout it all I had to 268 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: you know, teach them about you know, tell them that 269 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: Mom's in heaven and you know she's been she's okay, 270 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 2: and she's in a great place and one day we're 271 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: all going to be together, you and to see her again. 272 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: And you know, but in the meantime, I mean, you know, 273 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: I was like literally just like I'm speaking with you 274 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 2: right now, and inside my soul was screaming, just screaming hysterically. 275 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: And on the outside I had to be calm to 276 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: them and my kids who were droping and everybody was 277 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: falling apart, and I had to be strong and try 278 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: to be calm, and inside I was just a wreck, 279 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: and I was just it was just some somebody was 280 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: screaming inside of me, just screaming the whole time. And 281 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: that happen, but for months. When did you know he 282 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,239 Speaker 2: went on the run. Well, they told me that they 283 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: were looking for him, and then, you know, I was 284 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: staying in touch with San Diego Peti and I think 285 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: it was like the next day and he said, hey, 286 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: we found the car and they had found out that 287 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: he fled into Mexico. And then it was they were like, 288 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 2: well we're working when the asas there. The crazy thing 289 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 2: was and I know that the detective felt really bad 290 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: about it, really really bad. I heard he was really devastated. 291 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 2: But we were at the viewing, my daughter's viewing at 292 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 2: the funeral hall, and I get a phone call from 293 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 2: the detective and he says, we got him. I said, 294 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: you got him. They were like, we got him. And 295 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 2: I was like, they got him, they got him, and 296 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: everybody you know, I mean, I mean, it wasn't much 297 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: of a victory, right you're standing in front of your 298 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 2: daughter's coffin, but it were like, yeah, they got him, 299 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: a big deal, right. Well then on I got a 300 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 2: phone call, a frantic call, singing sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, 301 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: it wasn't him, Oh my god. And then he disappeared 302 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 2: and they didn't engage the marshals until almost five months later, 303 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 2: and that's after I made a scene, rode to the 304 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: White House, involved my congresswoman, and just started making phone 305 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 2: calls left and right. I even't tried to get the 306 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: Pentagon involved. Well, I mean, it is their man. They 307 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 2: trained him out of kill, they trained in WAA. You 308 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: would think they get evolved, but no. Anyway, So then 309 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 2: you know when I realized that five months about five 310 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 2: months after, you know, every day I'm calling calling in 311 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 2: the meantime, I'm in deep grief and planning funerals and 312 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: dealing with all that schoolkids. You know. That's when I 313 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: was talking to the bounty hunter or the other Bell 314 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: bondsmen and said to well, you know they're not looking 315 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 2: for him, right And I said, yeah they are. They 316 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 2: said they have you know, Lucili Brown, and they're looking 317 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 2: for him. He says, you really believe that? Do you 318 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: really believe that they have people actually looking for him there? 319 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 2: And I said that's what they said. He knows, No, 320 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 2: that doesn't happen that way. There's nobody looking for him 321 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: out there. I'm like, what you know? So I remember 322 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 2: calling the investigators and stuff and asked them, what are 323 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: you guys doing? Are you doing anything. Well, with notified 324 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 2: the embassy. We've notified our people, you know, but are 325 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 2: you putting flyers out there? Are you advertising? Are you 326 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 2: looking for him? Are you doing anything like that? And 327 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 2: and that's when I decided to take the bull by 328 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: the horn. And Okay, now you are going to get 329 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: away with nobody's going to get away with murdering my child. 330 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 2: He is not going to get away, amen. 331 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, taking the bull while the horns, to me is 332 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: under selling what you did, y'all. When I tell you this, 333 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: mama went to work. 334 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 335 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: And this is why y'all are just gonna lover her. 336 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: If you already don't know the story, here you go. 337 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: So you made a statement to me once where you 338 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: said mag I was pounding the pavement virtually. Well, I 339 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: started trying to figure out how to navigate through the system, 340 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: through the computer system, minding you know, I'm in my sixties. 341 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: Here we started forgetting out to turn off the computer. Oh, 342 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: it's got to be clubbed. No, But you know, it 343 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: was like I didn't know what to do. 344 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: And speaking about law enforcement, okay, mind dude, that was 345 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 2: way back in nineteen seventy seven when I graduated from 346 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 2: the Gap Police Academy, and I'm you know, I was 347 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: work patrol for five years and then I did a 348 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 2: detective for about three years after. But you know, back 349 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: then on Guam, the we didn't have computers or anything, 350 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: so I had to learn everything new. So I paid 351 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 2: a couple thousand dollars and I went to one of 352 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: these open source training for that was put on for 353 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: private investigators, for law enforcement and even the general public, 354 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 2: and the marshals actually sent people there. I met officers 355 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: and all the private investigators. So my intent wasn't just 356 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 2: going there to learn, but my intent was to make connections, 357 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 2: and that I did. I make connections all over the world, 358 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: you know, people that were trying to help, from Africa, 359 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 2: from England, you know. And I had a whole bunch 360 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: of people trying their hand at it and nothing. And finally, 361 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: I you know, I prayed, I cried, and really it 362 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: was God meeting me. That's bottom line. It was God 363 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: meeting me. And you know, people thought, okay, central America, 364 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: come on, Josephine, you can't search for somebody in Central America. 365 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: But you know what my faith was the whole time. Okay, 366 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 2: when you minimize a Google map the whole time. I 367 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 2: pictured that whole entire map on my hand, and I said, 368 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: it's as big as my hand, and I can find 369 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 2: every part. I'm going to touch every part of it. 370 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 2: And that was my faith, and I kept it small 371 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 2: in the problem of my hands, and I knew that 372 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 2: I had him in the pole of my hands. I 373 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: just need to locate where he's at. But he's in 374 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 2: the problem my hands. And I kept that vision for 375 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: six years and two months. But you know what, it worked. 376 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 2: Somebody notified you about a sitan, Yes, and so what 377 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 2: I did? I mean, come on, here's the thing you see, Like, 378 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: you know, I have a friend in California who's the 379 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: governor chose her case to give her fifty thousand dollars reward, 380 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: and her son's been dead for fourteen years and there's 381 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: no suspect anything. Okay, But here's the problem with that case. 382 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: It can't be solved because they messed up with the 383 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 2: evidence and they lost custody of the evidence, so the 384 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 2: evidence was contaminated on that case to begin with. Then 385 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 2: they put a fifty thousand dollar reward for that case, 386 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: but nobody knows there's a fifty thousand dollars reward because 387 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: they don't go on advertise as a fifty thousand dollars reward. 388 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: So even though it looks great when they say, oh, 389 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 2: well we're giving you this and this, and it's great 390 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: on paper, but who's looking for the person? Nobody? Well, 391 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: you know, I just honestly, I assumed that this guy 392 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: took my daughter's life and fled the country. Surely, surely, 393 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 2: as American citizens this, they're going to go look for 394 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: him and bring him back to justice. That's what I assume. 395 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 2: I was wrong. 396 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: You know what, though, when you're talking about mexicom Ala, 397 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: belize like all over South America the way you described 398 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: the palm of your hand, and you can touch every 399 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: part of it. 400 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 2: Here's what I love. 401 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: Nancy Grays decided she's going to do a special. She's 402 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: going to bring you in. She brought me in. I'm 403 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: sitting right next to you, and you said something. You said, 404 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: you know what, I don't have to play by the rules. 405 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: I'm not law enforcement. 406 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 2: I knew then she's gonna get him. I was like, go, Mama, 407 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: if you want me to write a shotgun, please call me. 408 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: Let's load up the truck. I went to the Embassy 409 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 2: myself say did you know that this? What are you doing? 410 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 2: You know? And so when I wrote the White House, 411 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 2: by the way, I knew how to write letters to 412 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: get attention. I learned it. I learned it years ago. 413 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: But when I wrote the White House, I was surprised 414 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 2: they put a case number on it. The minute they 415 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: put a case number on my letter, I knew I 416 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: had gold in my hand. I knew that everybody's going 417 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 2: to have to jump when I bring back case number 418 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 2: and say, look, the White House has its attention on 419 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 2: this cake. But you know, they basically handed me over 420 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: to the State Department saying help this lady. Well, the 421 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: State Department kind of gave me to say. The deputy 422 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: director called me up and he was like, well, you know, 423 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: we're going to do our pass. It's really not in 424 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 2: our department. We're just you know, the State Department handled 425 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 2: the Embassy and stuff. It's really the marshals. I'll pass 426 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: the inf wan kind of thing. I'm like, wait a minute, Well, 427 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: if the White House didn't want you to do anything, 428 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: then why did they refer to you? Why did you 429 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 2: write me a letter? You know? So it went on 430 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 2: like that for a while. He's like, okay, well, you know, 431 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: I'll notify some other people, let them know. Okay. So 432 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 2: after a few months of going back and forth and 433 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: engaging other people, I remember calling him back, and when 434 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 2: I called him, I fell apart on that phone. I 435 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 2: just started sobbing and I was just crying my eyeballs out, saying, 436 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: you have no idea, you have no clue because you 437 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: didn't know as a child, and the poor guy, okay, okay, okay, 438 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 2: well let me see what I can do. Let me 439 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: see what I could do. Okay. And I think he 440 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: ignited a fire in Washington, d C. That's what he did. 441 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, they're paying attention to me. Now. 442 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: Then here comes a letter of inquiry for my congresswoman 443 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: and they're like, okay, okay, okay, you know this is 444 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: what we're doing. I'm down. It's Josephine. So then after COVID, 445 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: I thought, oh, oh, surely my case spirits. So I 446 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: asked my congresswoman again, can you put another letter of 447 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 2: inquiry in and find out what's going on? It was like, 448 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 2: please stop talking to your tiris wasn't pay just enough. 449 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 2: We're doing something, I promise We're doing something. But you 450 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: know what, I'm really grateful for the marshals I had 451 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 2: the task Force, especially San Diego. They've been so supportive, 452 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 2: they've been so kind, they've been so accommodating, and every 453 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 2: time we had they've responded to several tips out there. 454 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 2: One one incident they went to he was spotted in Roton, Honduras, 455 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: and there was a guy look identical to him and 456 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: they were They had the military surround the island and 457 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 2: they were going house to house and I knew it 458 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: was happening because somebody whose house was locked on contact 459 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: could be a messenger saying, hey, they just came by 460 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 2: my house. The military's around at Roton. And they've responded 461 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 2: to several things. 462 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 3: You know, I even had a retired a retired marshall 463 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 3: who had contacted me and said, hey, you know Josephine 464 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 3: and I'm in Central America. 465 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: If you want me to check out anything, let me know. 466 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 2: Love it, love it. But you know, you had Lenny 467 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: to Paulson with us. 468 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: Lenny's one of the best to ever do it, and 469 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: you know, all he could do was talk about what 470 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: you had done. And I thought that was remarkable to 471 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: give you that nod to say, look, we're sitting here today. 472 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: The Marshall Service is looking for him today because of 473 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: what Josephine has done. 474 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 2: I just could not see this man getting away with murder, 475 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 2: and I knew he was be interest and the more 476 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 2: reports I got that he was hurting women, the more 477 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: aggressive I became. Tell us about Jack Donovan. Jack Donovan 478 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: was the name that Raymond MacLeod was using. So he's 479 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 2: living in another country under an assumed name. Yes, and working. Oh, 480 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: this is where everybody's gonna love. Tell him where he 481 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: was working. He was at a school. He was working 482 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: as an English teacher for adults in El Salvador. So 483 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 2: still vulnerable women, yes, vulnerable women and young men. Yes. Okay. 484 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: So he was captured and now the trial is coming up. 485 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: I mean this is the tenth attempt at a preliminary. 486 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: So this guy, okay, So picture, My daughter's been gone 487 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: for over eight years. It's for six years and two months. 488 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: I have been looking for the murderer now for two 489 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: years and a couple of months. He's been sitting in 490 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 2: jail waiting for a preliminary. We're finally going tomorrow. I'm 491 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: flying out to San Diego. And we're finally going to 492 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: have the preliminary hearing, which I was told was going 493 00:29:50,960 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: to be hard because the defense wants to tear down 494 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 2: the victim. 495 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: Basically, Oh, let me guess it was rough sex that 496 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: got out of hand. 497 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: M hm. Yes, that's what he wants to say. Of course, 498 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 2: of course all evidence shows that he was you know, 499 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: he did it, So he's not going to deny killing her. Yeah, 500 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: because there's a video. Nobody else goes in and out 501 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 2: of that apartment. Nobody else fled, nobody else went to 502 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: another country under assumed name. Nobody else had their hands 503 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: around her throat that very night, nobody else slapped her 504 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: physically in public, in front of God and country. So 505 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: my question is with the rough sex, was he having 506 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 2: sex with the man at the bar too, because he 507 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 2: fought him and it was rough, Well, was he having 508 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 2: sex with the woman? He is a strange white. He 509 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: tried to murder and that's why he was out in 510 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: bond out of Riverside, California. 511 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: Okay, And how about the fact that you know Crystal's 512 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: voice box was fractured in three places. 513 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: Well, he's he's been abusive all throughout women. I mean, 514 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 2: I had both calls of women contacting me. As a 515 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 2: matter of fact, I had a call recently from a 516 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: gal that knew, you know, Crystal very very well. She 517 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 2: k looked out in Phoenix and she was telling me. 518 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: She says, you know, I met this gal and when 519 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: she saw that, you know, I had Crystal's picture, she goes, 520 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: wait a minute, wasn't that Why do you have her picture? 521 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: And she said, oh, that's my friend. And she had 522 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: told her, Oh my gosh, you know I dated that monster. 523 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: We were dating and he would have rep sex and stuff, 524 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: but he was abusive all the time. You know, she 525 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 2: fled from him because he was just throwing her around 526 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: all the time and beating up on her. And I 527 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 2: think there's a name for men like that. I think 528 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: it was Chris or somebody had told me that there 529 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: was a name for men like that too. They use 530 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: rep sex as an excuse that it's called a pos. 531 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 2: I got another word too. But this could go on 532 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: for a while, right, And here's the thing, you know, 533 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 2: it's he's so sick that he's he's even trying to 534 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: make it very difficult for my family. He wants to 535 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 2: be nasty, he wants to use the money that his 536 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: father left behind and trusts to hire all these attorneys 537 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 2: and try to, you know, make it really rough for 538 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: the family. He's guilty, why don't he just plead guilty 539 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: and spare us the details. You know, that's the hardest 540 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: thing for families is that they have to sit through 541 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: court and listen to these novels. I don't know how 542 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: I'm an affair to tear the truth. Well, I'll tell 543 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: you one thing. 544 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 1: I feel for her children because every single thing that 545 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: they're going to allege, which is not true, She's had 546 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: other men in her background that was not a part 547 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: of her life at all. 548 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: But they're gonna read about it. 549 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: It's going to be out there for God and country 550 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: to see. And that to me is a part of 551 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: this whole thing that is just disgusting. 552 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: It is, and it's a reason why a lot of 553 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: women won't come forward. I mean, we're talking about dB month. 554 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: That's the reason a lot of women won't come forward 555 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: and tell the truth. They're a shame and they don't 556 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 2: have the money to fight back, and they know that 557 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: they'll have to go to court and be drugged through mud, 558 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, we see it all the time. 559 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: And you know in this case, I mean, you know, 560 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: this guy he comes for money. His parents were from Scottsdale, Arizona, 561 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: and they were delight insurance and stuff. And you know 562 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: he's left a chunk of money for Junior to try 563 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: and get exonerated. Raymond MacLeod was counting on a lot 564 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 2: of things, Josephine. He was counting on Mexico and Guatemala 565 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: and Belize hiding him. He was counting on that the 566 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: marshals were never going to show up. The Bell's bondman 567 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: was going to write it off. But he wasn't counting 568 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 2: on you. You are the X factor here. Your determination, You're 569 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 2: just flat out bravery and determination to do for your child. 570 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 2: I mean, I know you were forward detective. I know 571 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: you had some skill. None of that to me came 572 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 2: into play here. 573 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: You utilize technology that you weren't that familiar with, that 574 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: you never used in your job. You were fearless in 575 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: who you contacted and who you asked for help. And 576 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: I'll tell it to me when you take you and 577 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: that tipster because of you, and then law enforcement because 578 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: of the tipster, That's how you get at this capture. 579 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: There's no other way to look at it. There's not 580 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: this is you. So when you say I don't know 581 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: how long affair I do I do, You're going to 582 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: walk in that place like the ball you are. 583 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 2: You're gonna look right at him. You're going to testify, 584 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,919 Speaker 2: and he's going to stay in jail for the rest 585 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: of his natural life. That is what I'm hoping to do. 586 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: I'm you know, I just you know, for me, I've 587 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 2: always avoided learning all the details. I mean, just the 588 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 2: stuff you describe right now, with things that I recently 589 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: learned off because everybody else knew about it, I didn't. 590 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 2: I just chose not to, and I wanted to add 591 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 2: as you know, and this is where my peace comes in. Okay. 592 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 2: You know, when when I first got worded that she 593 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 2: was killed, and during the time that I was grieving 594 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 2: and everything else, and the only you know, everybody's boys 595 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: just kind of faded in the background, I heard a voice, 596 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: very loud and clear that said, Josephine, your daughter's spirit 597 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 2: was taken by an angel before Satan had his way 598 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 2: with her body. And this is the only thing that 599 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 2: keeps me going is what I've heard from God and 600 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 2: his guidance. And that's what you know keeps me going. 601 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: So when I say I don't know how I'm gonna fare, 602 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: you know I've been fighting. The biggest struggle for me 603 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 2: is my spirit and my flesh. My flesh ones were 604 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 2: in band. I've had a plot and plan this whole 605 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: time I was looking for him. I had to repent 606 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 2: over and over and over for my thoughts. Then the 607 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 2: spirit that says, you know, let God handle it. That's 608 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 2: been my struggle back and forth. That's why I say 609 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 2: I'm not I mean, I just want to go there 610 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 2: and just jump it and slap the hand out of them. 611 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 2: I know that's not going to happen. And I know 612 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 2: if I even attempted anything like that, they throw me 613 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 2: out of court right banned me from the trial. So 614 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's a struggle, it really is. I 615 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 2: mean it's a struggle of you know, letting it go, 616 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 2: letting God or you know, take it into your hands. 617 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 2: And I say, it's easier when you let God handle it, 618 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 2: because then you don't have to carry the burden no 619 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: matter what happened. And that's my struggle. I'm not trying 620 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 2: to turn this into a religious show or anything like that. 621 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: You know, there are some people that don't believe. Some 622 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 2: people struggle whatever. It's not about religion at all. It's 623 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: about how I'm making it and how I did it. 624 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,479 Speaker 2: You know, the people say you're so strong, No, I'm weak. 625 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 2: Remember I told you about that person inside of me 626 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 2: screaming and crying. That's me. That's who I am. The 627 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 2: outside is what you see God owing in the app 628 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 2: and making me somebody different, and he's my strength. You know, 629 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 2: I'm hoping that McLeod is not released back into society. 630 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 2: I really believe, with all my heart's soul in mind 631 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 2: that this was not his first murder and this will 632 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 2: not be his last, and he needs to be contained 633 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 2: in that cell. He really does. And I hope to 634 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 2: God that he gets convicted of first degree murder and 635 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 2: that he serves the rest of his life in prison. Josephine, 636 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 2: thank you so much for sharing this with us. Thank 637 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 2: you for being my friend, Thank you for being a 638 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 2: part of my Zone. 639 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: Seven, and I want you to know we are all 640 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: standing with you next week. 641 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 2: Thank you. I really appreciate it, and take care, y'all. 642 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 2: Want to get an end Zone seven the way that 643 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 2: I always do. 644 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: With a quote, I've said it before, and I'll say 645 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: it again. 646 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 2: He messed with the wrong Mama. 647 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: San Diego District Attorney Somers dat. I'm Cheryl McCollum and 648 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: this is Zone seven.