1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Just a quick heads up. Today's episode talks about pretty 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: intense harassment. My first instinct was they always get away 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: with this, and they're just not going to do it 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: this time. There Are No Girls on the Internet. As 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, I'm 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: Bridget Tod and this is there are No Girls on 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: the Internet. If you're on the Internet, then you probably 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: are familiar with the term stand, originally popularized and Eminem's 9 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: two thousand songs of the same name. Stand tells the 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: story of an obsessive Eminem fan. In the song stands, 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: obsession drives him to express his fandom through violent behavior. 12 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: So fast forward to today, where we've kind of dropped 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: the fact that stands love of Eminem is not a 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: healthy one. Today, a stand is more of a garden 15 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: variety super fan, masking the terms dark origins. So I 16 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: started out this episode wondering when did fandom get so toxic? 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: But maybe the truth is that it's always been there. 18 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: But what happens when obsessive fans express their love of 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: a particular celebrity in ways that are dangerous or even illegal. 20 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: Last week, cultural critic Kimberly Foster found out So you 21 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: may remember Kimberly Foster from an earlier episode of their 22 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet we did about Jana Jackson. 23 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: Kimberly is a cultural critic. It's her job to put 24 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: opinions and critiques about popular culture into the world via 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: the Internet, and she's been doing it for decades. But 26 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: when she tweeted about rapper Nicki Minaj, Kimberly found herself 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: at the heart of a targeted carassment campaign waged by 28 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: obsessive Nicki Minaj fans collectively known as the Barbs. Now, 29 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about cash Will fans or even huge fans. 30 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: The barbs are something else, entirely people who make their 31 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: entire online identity a shrine to Nicki Minaj. Their Twitter 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: bios include details like retweeted by Nikki in April fourteen 33 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: or Nicky follows. So when Kimberly tweeted critically about Nicki Minaj, 34 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: her personal information was posted online known as dosing, and worse, 35 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: she and her family got violent threats, and for a 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: lot of us, the story might end there, But Kimberly 37 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: is pursuing legal action, So you might be thinking, who cares? 38 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: Isn't this just stupid celebrity drama. But in taking a 39 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: legal stand, Kimberly may very well be setting a precedent 40 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: that shapes online discourse for years to come. My name 41 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: is Kimberly Nicole Foster, and I'm a culture critic and YouTuber. 42 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: So first I just have to start by asking, with 43 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: everything going on, how is Kimberly? How are you? I 44 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: am surviving? I'm okay. I mean, I've definitely been better, 45 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: but I've also definitely been worse. So that helps me 46 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: maintain perspective, but not the highlight, not the pinnacle, the 47 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: zenith of my life for sure right now. So tell 48 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: us what happened on September twelve. Yeah, so early in 49 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: the morning on Monday September twelve, I was scrolling my 50 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: Instagram and I came across one of those Instagram blogs 51 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: and they posted something about a new beef that Nicki 52 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: Minaj appeared to be and she was saying something on 53 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: some new app and other young women rappers were responding 54 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: and it was just a new thing brewing. And I 55 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: went to my timeline on Twitter as I want to do, 56 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: and I tweeted out something about it and went to sleep. 57 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean it was three or four o'clock in the morning. 58 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: I'm barely awake, and I wake up the next morning 59 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: because I'm super excited to go to my nieces school 60 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: and bring them lunch. They were having a kind of 61 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: friends and family day and they had invited me to go, 62 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: and I was so excited because I'm obsessed with being 63 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: the best aunt in the world. And I remember picking 64 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: out my outfit that morning and doing my hair, and 65 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: my niece had even warned me, yeah, dressed like a mom, Kim, 66 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: don't just like a young person. Dressed like a mom, 67 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: you know, no prop tops, no short shorts. And so 68 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: I'm trying to pick out my best cool aunt outfit 69 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, my phone starts that, you know, 70 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: very classic iPhone that tone, and I'm hearing it. I'm like, 71 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: who was texting? What? And that I keep hearing it, 72 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: keep hearing it, and then I hear the face time tone, 73 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: and I'm like, WHOA, something is happening, and I pick 74 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: up my phone. Of course, my my lock screen, and 75 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: all on my lock screen there are six or seven messages, 76 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: and I don't know what's happening, but I see the 77 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: word nikki on one of those messages on the lock screen, 78 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: and I knew exactly what it was. It was like 79 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: I was in a movie I had. I had heard 80 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: about this, I'd seen it happen. I never paid that 81 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: much attention to it when it was happening, but I've 82 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: been vaguely aware. But I know exactly what was happening. 83 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: And so I'm trying to I still have to go 84 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: to my visa school. I have to bring them lunch. 85 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: I promised them, and so I'm trying to simultaneously focus 86 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: on getting myself together, getting out of the house, being 87 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: on time, and deal with all of this stuff that's 88 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: coming in. And initially I saw the word nikki and 89 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: I thought, okay, whatever um I mean? Did I think? 90 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: I mean? I thought, okay, I can deal with this. 91 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: I can deal with this, like, let's focus. And then 92 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: I remember looking at the phone and it was violent. 93 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: It was I'm gonna shoot you, I'm gonna kill your family, 94 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna murder you, I'm gonna kidnap you. I'm going 95 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: to find where you live and you're not going to 96 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: be safe, and then it becomes scary. Kimberly pretty quickly 97 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: realized this was not just a few people giving her snarky, 98 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: mean replies on Twitter, this was something else entirely. Then 99 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: it gets to be oh, umm, because I don't know 100 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: what they know. I don't know how they found my 101 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: phone number at that point. But you can change your 102 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: phone number, um. But once it gets to I know 103 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: your address and multiple multiple um text messages too, and 104 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: even you know the initial phone number violation is is 105 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: like quoa. That's where I'm like, oh, because if this 106 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: was just tweets you log off Twitter, you're close to like, Okay, 107 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: I have a lie, but um, this is my phone number, 108 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: the phone number that I've had since I was eighteen 109 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: years old. I'm thirty three now, I'm not giving it 110 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: out willy nilly. I don't know where they've gotten it. 111 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: And if they found the phone number, what else do 112 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: you have about me? About my family that you're threatening 113 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: to had nap and mutilate and murder and sexually assault 114 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: and so yeah, there was just a lot going on. 115 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: I do have to show up for my nieces. I'm 116 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: completely distracted the entire time that I'm there. Afterwards, I 117 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: get in my car. I called the police. The police say, 118 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: you can't come in. We can't accept anything over the phone, 119 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: you have to do it online. So then I have 120 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: to drive the thirty forty minutes back home and sit 121 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: down and fill out that first police report, which is like, 122 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: there was a frustrating process. I'll say that I won't 123 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: go too much into that. Um, and yeah, it just 124 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: it just continued. And and then I saw the screenshots 125 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: where things were coming from, Um, you know, people circulating 126 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: my phone number, these Nicki minajh fans barbs right, because 127 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: if I haven't made it clear, um, the Nikki is 128 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: Nicki Minaj. And I realized that this is a coordinated 129 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: campaign of harassment via the quote unquote barbed community. And 130 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: people are sending me screenshots of this person shared your number, 131 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: and and they shared it over here and here and here, 132 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: and I see some of these some of these Twitter 133 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: accounts have thousands of followers. Um, I saw one Twitter 134 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: account that had almost sixteen thousand followers. Of let's text 135 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: her and show her and you're not going to get 136 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: away with this and she'll know better next time. And 137 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: then I see them circulating a screenshot of my phone 138 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: number and what is fortunately my previous home address, and 139 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, that's scary. That's scary not only 140 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: for me now, but it's scary for the person who 141 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: currently lives there. Amidst all of this, the threats, the harassment, 142 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: the slurs, Kimberly's first instinct with physical safety. She needed 143 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: to make sure that her, her family, and the people 144 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: living in her building were all okay. And so yeah, 145 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: that happens in My first thought were my first thoughts were, 146 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: I have to make sure I'm safe. They are telling 147 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: me they know where I lived. So I also had 148 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: to contact my building. As soon as I got back home, 149 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: I went to the building manager's office and explained to her, 150 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 1: and she was like, you know, because people who aren't 151 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: extremely online are like, what's happening? What? And then I 152 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: have to you know, email her exactly you know what's 153 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: in my phone and she's like, oh my, like you know, um, 154 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: and they have a responsibility to protect the hundreds of 155 00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: other people who live here, um, you know, the police stuff. 156 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: And then of course people send me um screenshots of 157 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: someone tweeting I'm gonna find the kids school. I'm looking 158 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: at the kids school address right now, and that of course, 159 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: anybody who knows me knows that how much I love 160 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: my nieces and would literally die to protect them and 161 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: jump in front of a moving train. UM. I alerted 162 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: the FBI about that stuff. I mean, it was just 163 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: overwhelming in the truest sense of the word. Yeah, and 164 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: so but I, you know, I was like, Okay, you 165 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: have to keep this together. I'm trying to publicly document 166 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: this because UM, I felt like that is that was 167 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: my only hope. I felt like, UM, I'll say this, UM. 168 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: In the last couple of weeks, I've gotten so many 169 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: messages from people about this kind of stuff happening to 170 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: them from that particular stand community, and the recurring fame 171 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: is when it happened to me. People's new photos have 172 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: been leaked, their phone numbers have been leaked. In fact, 173 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: on that Monday, I wasn't the only person who the 174 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: barbs docked. UM. And they said I didn't do anything 175 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: about it because I couldn't. Nobody was going to listen 176 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: to me. I didn't have money to afford a lawyer. 177 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: I only have a couple of hundred followers, I don't 178 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: have a platform. And my first instinct was they always 179 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: get away with this, and they're just not going to 180 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: do it this time. And so that really motivated my 181 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: desire to really lay this out and make sure that 182 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: I was going to um pursue it via whatever avenues 183 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: were available to me. Mm hmm. I have to say 184 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of people, usually black women, 185 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: who are at the center of this kind of coordinated 186 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: harassment and online abuse, and they all say that, like, 187 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: nobody either A. It was so difficult to describe what 188 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: was happening to people who were not extremely online, and 189 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: that was incredibly isolating. The people that I would go 190 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: to for help didn't really understand what I was talking about, 191 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: so I wasn't able to get that help. I didn't 192 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: have money, support, access to fight back, and so I 193 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: just had to deal with it. And I think why 194 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: I'm so interested in what you're doing is because I 195 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: think it sets a clear precedent that this is not acceptable. 196 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: This is not acceptable online discourse, This is not acceptable 197 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: online behavior and people. It should not just be the 198 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 1: cost of for you, Kimberly, really doing your job as 199 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,599 Speaker 1: a cultural critic, Like this is what you're supposed to 200 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: be doing. This is what you That's why I follow you. 201 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 1: This is like what like, this is your job? Is 202 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: how you make money? That should not just be the 203 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: cost of Kimberly doing her job having these kinds of threats. 204 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: And another misconception that I've seen online a lot is that, oh, 205 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: Kimberly is a public figure. You know, people are allowed 206 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: to have push back. The kinds of things that I 207 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: saw with my own eyes are violent threats. It's things 208 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: like I know the kids school address. I saw one 209 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: where someone was saying like very specific things about the 210 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: building that you lived in, like, oh, you think you 211 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: are safe because you live in a secure building. Well, YadA, YadA, 212 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: YadA like these This is not discourse. This is violent 213 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: threats and it's against the law. And even like you 214 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: should not have to put up with it just because 215 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: you angered the wrong toxic stand community, like that's that's 216 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: I'm just in all that you are trying to set 217 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: this new precedent that just draws a line in the 218 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: sand for what is it is not acceptable online. Yeah, 219 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: I have to say, though I have I was rather 220 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: impressed by how coordinated not only the dissemination the distribution 221 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: of my phone number and previous address work, but also 222 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: the messaging that they used around doxing me and harassing 223 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: me and sending me these terroristic threats from account to 224 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: account to account. And these are old accounts, right, And 225 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: another thing people try to push back on, these are trolls. 226 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: This account is from September. There's accounts years old old. 227 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: Um that they are using the same language, They are 228 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: using the same talking points. The word unprovoked came up 229 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: a lot. Yes, you're right, they said you are in public. 230 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: How why do you think that you get to say 231 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: these things publicly and nobody gets to say anything back 232 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: to you? Or why do you think that you get 233 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: to harass Nicki Minaje and you don't deserve harassment? Like, um, one, 234 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: that makes no fucking sense, Like that's it's nonsense. Those 235 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: are nonsensical arguments. But seeing it dozens of times, hundreds 236 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: of times at this point over the last couple of weeks, 237 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: I'm like whoa. And maybe a week ago a Cardi 238 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: b stand account tweeted me and said they get together 239 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: in group chats and they they figure out what they're 240 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: gonna say. I said, Oh, that makes perfect sense. It's like, oh, 241 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: that is why I'm seeing the exact same language from 242 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: these well established stand accounts with thousands of followers and 243 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: created in twenty fifteen. They're all coming to get there 244 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: to descend are these details and say the exact same things. 245 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: It's so well organized, imagined if you put this worked 246 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: in effort and intentionality into something that's not illegal. But 247 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: but yeah that UM, I say my opinions in public. 248 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: I don't say things that are false or defamatory. I 249 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: don't say things that are untrue. I talk about my feelings, 250 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: I analyze things. I'm very very careful. I'm really really 251 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: good at my job. And no, that does not mean 252 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: that I deserved to be doct That does not mean 253 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: that my family deserves to feel whatever they feel. Right now, 254 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: I'll tell you something else. The the day that I 255 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: had to email my niece's principle and vice principle and say, 256 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: these are my two nieces are in this grade. This 257 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: is what's happened to me. Here are screenshots of what 258 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: I received. This is what I sent to the police. 259 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: This is the police report number. This is what I 260 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: sent to the FBI. See seeing my sister on that 261 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't a good day. It wasn't and they didn't 262 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: deserve that, And I didn't deserve that. Absolutely fucking not. Uh, 263 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: absolutely not. Let's take a quick break at her back. 264 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you talk about the coordination, because, 265 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: like I said, like, I feel like I watched this happen, 266 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: like I watched it unfold, and I watched it get like, 267 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: you know, blow up, and I so one of the 268 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: talking points that I saw repeated quite a bit was 269 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: that Kimberly put her age US and phone number on 270 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: the internet herself. If you do that willingly, that means 271 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: it can't be doxing. And I saw that so many 272 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: times repeated that I almost was like, well, maybe that's true. 273 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: Then I took a step back and I was like, 274 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I actually know quite a bit about doxing. 275 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: That's not correct. You know, one thing that people might 276 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: be surprised to learn is that pretty much anybody in 277 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: the United States are public information is for sale via 278 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: really sketchy people find your websites. And I hate to 279 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: say it, but nine times out of ten, the reason 280 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: why our information is on those websites is not because 281 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: we put it there. It's because our local city services, 282 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: you know the d m V, you know, our our vote, 283 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: our registration, our polls. They often sell bundle and sell 284 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: that data to third party sketchy websites, and so it 285 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: is terrifying. But I just need to make very clear 286 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: that pretty much all of our personal information is for 287 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: sale if somebody wants to buy it online, and so 288 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: that the idea that that would mean that it's not 289 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: them illegal to disseminate that information just doesn't just doesn't 290 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: make any sense, Like that's that's absolutely not true. And 291 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: the fact that I saw that repeat, that untrue claim 292 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: repeated so many times just lets me know how savvy 293 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: folks are abow disseminating. I will give them accurate sounding, 294 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: but not accurate information that makes them look bad, that 295 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: makes them look look like they haven't done anything wrong, 296 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: and makes you look bad. Yeah, it's miss and disinformation 297 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: because some people definitely shared false information intentionally. But there's 298 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: a couple of things here. Right after this happened, I 299 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: immediately went to how did they get my phone number? Like? What? 300 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: How did that happen? And I can totally admit that now. 301 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: I can totally admit now that my first instinct was 302 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: to blame myself, like where did I I must have 303 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: put it up somewhere. There's no way that people are 304 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: digging and looking and searching like it. It's gotta be 305 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: you know, I've been on the Internet for a long time. 306 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: It's got to be somewhere, and I just say it's 307 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: it's got to be somewhere on my YouTube channel. And 308 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: then I went back and I checked all of the places. 309 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: I checked my social media, all of the pages that 310 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: I've had for I've been an Internet person for over 311 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: a decade. It's not anywhere publicly accessible. It's not anywhere 312 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: even privately accessible. And so that claimed that. Honestly, I 313 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: think people are are trying to they might have heard 314 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: something that I said and then they're repeating it back 315 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: to me as fact. It's not true. It's just not true. 316 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I checked and double checked and went through 317 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: I've had I'd probably have thirty Facebook pages, Twitter accounts. 318 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: It's not there. It was not there. And so yes, 319 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: they very they had to be very intentional about seeking 320 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: out that information. But also it's not just about the 321 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: finding of the information, because yes, Bridget, as you said, 322 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: unfortunately millions of people don't know that it's pretty easy 323 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: to find out your phone number, UM and your and 324 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: your home address, at least the last phone address that's 325 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: on any public work. I mean your home address, at 326 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: least the last home address that's on any public record. 327 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: But seeking out that information and sharing it with the 328 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: intention of harassing somebody and threatening them is unequivocally illegal. 329 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: The distribution of personal information with I mean people literally 330 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: explicitly said, I'm doxing today, give me give me Kim's number. 331 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: I got something I want to say to her. I mean, 332 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: there's a long we got my my dropbox with the 333 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: strange shops, right, it's it's it's a lot, it's a lot. Right. 334 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: And so when you m set out to create this, 335 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: as I said, like almost militaristic, so careful organized, I'll 336 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: call it a campaign of abuse. Unequivocally open and shut case. 337 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: I mean, there's just that's not even something that I 338 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: can feel the need to go back and forth about. 339 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: But I will say this that, um, I have spent 340 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: hundreds of dollars now to have my information scraped from 341 00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: the the Internet. People should not have to a hundreds 342 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: of dollars to make sure that they are not susceptible 343 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: or vulnerable to what happened to me on September fifteen, sixteen. Right, 344 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: that should not be the case. The Barbs falsely maintained 345 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: that Kimberly must have put her own information online voluntarily 346 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: herself at some point or another. Otherwise how would they 347 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: have gotten it to spread. So it can't really be 348 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: doxing if she put her own personal information out there, 349 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: right wrong. Look, the scary reality is that pretty much 350 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: all of our personal information is for sale in the 351 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: United States, whether you put it out there yourself or not. 352 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: We spoke to Sean and De la Vu, CEO of 353 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: the anti docking service bright Lines, and here's what she 354 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: had to say. It is state agencies, whether they're d 355 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: m vs, that's pretty well documented. Um, if their utilities, 356 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: if their law enforced databases that are getting sold to 357 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: data brokers who are then selling them back to us. 358 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: If it's like ICE or some other federal agency, but 359 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: they're also selling them to data brokers. Just to make 360 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: sure I understand, So state agencies, the d m V, 361 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: my utilities company, my pepco, whatever, there might be the 362 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: ones who are selling this data and making money off 363 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: of it that it's putting people at risk. They are 364 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: the ones that are doing. Wow, this is shocking information 365 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: to me. You're probably like, oh, yeah, buckle up, Nick, 366 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: it's worth but I think that would be shocking information 367 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: to most people. Right, you would never know it until 368 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: you went to FOYA. And I'd say, in addition to utilities, 369 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: we know that courts sell court records, and those usually 370 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: like so you imagine that you get a parking ticket 371 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: because I live in d C. And I can never 372 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: remember which side of the street is street cleaning this week, 373 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: I get a parking ticket, and then there's a traffic 374 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: court data if I want to go, I don't even 375 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: think about it to ticket, it's like done. But there's 376 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: a record, right that has my name, my home address, 377 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: the then number of my car, probably my date of birth, 378 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: the information from my driver's license, plus my car, and 379 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: so that's a court record that would get sold. We 380 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: interviewed um, this woman shot On Dililo, who runs a 381 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: company called bright Lines, which specializes in scrubbing people's information 382 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: off the Internet when they become you know, run for office, 383 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: or you know, get targeted. And she talks about how 384 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: it's not cheap, the price point is high, and it 385 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: creates the situation where some people are able to take 386 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: the steps necessary to protect themselves, and it creates this 387 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: kind of permanent vulnerable under class that would never have 388 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: that access. And you know we're talking about if you've 389 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: ever had a driver's license, if you've ever voted, if 390 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: you've ever turned on the heat or the water in 391 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: an apartment, odds are, unless you have taken great steps 392 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: to prevent it, your information is available for sale. That's 393 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: just so, that's just the reality, it thoughts. But what 394 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: it is, what it is. It should not be that way, 395 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: and you, kimberally should not have to incur the pretty 396 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: high personal cost of doing this just to be able 397 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: to do your job as a cultural critic, like like, 398 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: we really have to take a step back and wonder 399 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: what kind of world like digital landscape we want to 400 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,479 Speaker 1: have where some people can show up safely if they 401 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: have the money, and the rest of everybody else is 402 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: just vulnerable. That that that is who is that serving? 403 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: Absolutely And I will say, you know, I feel a 404 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: responsibility as somebody who has not only a platform, but 405 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: access to resources a great social network, to do as 406 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: much as I can to make a very clear statement 407 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: that there are consequences, as I mentioned before, and I 408 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: am incredibly privileged. Even before this, I feel I have 409 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time wrestling with those privileges 410 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: and trying to be of service, trying to extend myself, 411 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: trying to share what I have, um in a in 412 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: a thoughtful way, in a responsible way. And I'm only 413 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: at this point because of this, all of these gifts 414 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: and access and resources and things that frankly I did 415 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: not earn coming together and I feel really, um, I 416 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: feel very resolute in the fact that what I am 417 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: doing is the right thing to do. You know, people say, 418 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: just let it go, you know, like, Okay, you're you're 419 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: on the other side of it. You have what you 420 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: need to get. You know, I have two phones. Now, Uh, 421 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: you're good, You're they nobody found you, just you nobody 422 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: found your meat, Like, and I'm like, no, I can't. 423 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: I can't let it go because all of these people 424 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: who have had to be you know, home, they didn't 425 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: have any choices. So yes, um, I definitely feel that way. 426 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: It also, you know, not so wave the you know, 427 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: not to get in my patriotic bag or anything like that. 428 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: But after having so many conversations with lawyers over the 429 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: past couple of weeks, with uh constitutional scholars, right, people 430 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: who have like deeply studied this stuff and had so 431 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: many conversations about the First Amendment and the rights and 432 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: protections that we are afforded, not only as citizens, but 433 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: as somebody who does what I do for a living, 434 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: which is, you know, just talk about things, hopefully in 435 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: a responsible manner. And I do think I'm very responsible. 436 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: But a bedrock of our constitution, a bedrock of our 437 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: values as Americans, it's that we can speak freely. And 438 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: you speak freely and you don't anticipate, uh, any illegal 439 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: kind of backlash. You know, you speak freely and that 440 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: does not give anybody the right to threaten you or 441 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: harm you. I expect when I say whatever I want 442 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: to say, people to go back and forth. I expect banter, 443 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: and sometimes on Twitter that banter can get a little feisty. 444 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: That's like, okay, we're feisty, we're justing. I love a 445 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: little witty repartee. I definitely did not expect this level 446 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: of an invasion of privacy or this level of trauma, 447 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: and I don't accept it. So it's unacceptable, and I 448 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: think you're right. I think the point is the silencing effect. 449 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: I think what what it's trying to do is to 450 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: be is to make it clear that negative cult critique 451 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: of certain people will not be tolerated. And if you 452 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: do it, this is what's going to happen to you. 453 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: And I think it takes a certain kind of person 454 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: to say, uh no, I'm allowed to do my job. 455 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm not going to accept this. And I was talking 456 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: earlier before you and I got on about how excited 457 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: I was to talk to you because I think this 458 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: could set an entire a real digital precedent about how 459 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: discourse works on today's Internet. I think what you're doing, 460 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: I think it's gonna set a really interesting precedent. I 461 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: think it's going to like this. This feels like legacy 462 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,719 Speaker 1: building stuff, Like I think people will go back and 463 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: be studying this in like media and digital criticism courses. Yeah, 464 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: I'm trying to its size this in my mind because 465 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about select pop culture commentary is what we're 466 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: really talking about here. But I agree with you, Bridget. 467 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: When I have talked about what happened and the dock 468 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: singe and the threats of murder, sexual assault, kidnapping, more 469 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: than a few people, honestly, a surprising number of people 470 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: who I thought were relatively reasonable, said well, if you 471 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: knew that these people do that, why would you even 472 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: talk about that person? I wait, wait, what we're talking 473 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: about a global superstar. We're talking about a person who 474 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: regularly releases music, a lot of the music that I 475 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: have said that I like and enjoy. A person who 476 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: less than a couple of weeks before this thing happened 477 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: was on the v M A is accepting the Video 478 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: Vanguard Award and doing a fifteen minute performed. I mean, 479 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: the idea that if you know that this particular stand um, 480 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: this spanned community is rapid, why would you say anything 481 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: about their person. It's just it makes absolutely no sense. 482 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: And yes, the idea that forever and ever nobody and 483 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, again we're not. I'm very aware of things 484 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: that are happening, like globally right people's I mean literal 485 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: lives are at risk and their rights are being stripped. 486 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: To me, even in the United States right with what's happened. 487 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: It's not that I understand, it's not that, but it 488 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: really is an attempt to strike fear in people's hearts 489 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: right like it's um on this kind of um micro scale. 490 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: It is about fear and intimidation and you know the 491 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: words you mentioned, silencing and just like the pettiest shit imaginable. 492 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: But also it's like really important. It's really important also because, um, 493 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: since this has happened, I've seen other I mean, if 494 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: Witnessed has happened to another pop culture YouTuber, but also 495 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: I have seen other writers and journalists and YouTubers, podcasters 496 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: who have experienced similar things, not only from this fandom, 497 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: definitely from this fandom, definitely from this fandom, but from 498 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: others as well. And eventually we got to say, enough 499 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: is enough, Right, somebody's gotta not necessarily punishment, because that's 500 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: not my orientation in the world. But I am certainly 501 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: about justice, and sometimes justice means consequences. I'm with you, 502 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: and I I want to be clear, this is me 503 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: saying this. This is my opinion and my take. I 504 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: the reason why I think what you're doing is so 505 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: important is because I cannot ignore the ways that I 506 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: have seen the same kind of strategy creep into our 507 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: political landscape. And so, yeah, we're talking about Nicki Minaj, 508 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: a pop star, a celebrity. That's that's the meat of 509 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: this conversation that we're having, you and me. But I 510 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: have seen the way that the same strategy, like it's 511 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: it reminds me a lot of how Trump, you Trump 512 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: used social media, right, and so the way that the 513 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: same exact thing is creeping into our political discourse and 514 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: becoming acceptable, I see a lot of parallels, and I 515 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: think that we might be in a very different political 516 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: and social situation today in two if we had not 517 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: established a precedent that this was a acceptable way to 518 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: behave online. That if one powerful, big voiced figure gives 519 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: the right kind of wink wink, nod nod signal, they 520 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: don't come out and say it. They never come out 521 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: and say it. I'm being very clear about that, but 522 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: they might give the right kind of signals. The people 523 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: who are obsessively following that one figure know exactly what 524 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: to do, they know exactly how to coordinate, and it's 525 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: very effective. That is a precedent that I feel like 526 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: has become more and more acceptable in our online discourse. 527 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: And I think that we would be in a very 528 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: different political situation had somebody said, wait a minute, not acceptable. 529 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: And so I know that it might not seem like, 530 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, it might seem like we're talking about celebrities 531 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: and pop culture and stands, but I think it's so 532 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: much deeper than that, and I think it really really 533 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: illustrate something else going on politically, socially, and digitally in 534 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: our culture. And again this is my opinion, This is 535 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: me saying that this is what I have witnessed. Um. 536 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: Just to be clear, Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. 537 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:23,479 Speaker 1: That polarization is ubiquitous, It's everywhere, and it leaves us 538 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 1: unable to determine boundaries, you know, reasonable boundaries, and where 539 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,479 Speaker 1: we will go and where we won't go, and what 540 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: we will do and what we won't do, and what 541 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: we should and shouldn't say. And that loss of the 542 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: ability to right size things in our minds, to to 543 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: assess responsible discourse. It has really really dire consequences. I 544 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: have to say, you know, justus and jobs, you know, 545 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: verbal jousts and jobs I love, I live for. Um. 546 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: I you know, I don't have a problem, you know, 547 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: going back and forth with people about why I don't 548 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: like somebody's music or why I disagree with their actions 549 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: and behaviors. But what this experience for me has made clear. 550 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: Over the past couple of weeks, I've done a lot 551 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: of reading and research, and so many different people have 552 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: brought all of these these resources to me, and books 553 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: and podcasts and documentaries about fanatic violence, fan violence, um extremism, 554 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: and it's so clear that even when we're just talking 555 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: about something like a pop culture figure, that there is 556 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:57,240 Speaker 1: so much opportunity for this stuff to escalate in ways 557 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: that are death stating, life changing, tragic. I feel incredibly 558 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: traumatized from the many days of harassment and abuse and 559 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: threats that I experienced, but there is so much more 560 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: than that at stake. People have been killed over a 561 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: fanatic violence. I mean, even somebody recently brought up you know, 562 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: John Hinckley Jr. I was born in the eighties, so 563 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. People don't know this, right, but you 564 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: know the the person who shot uh Ronald Drake in right, 565 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: and he was like obsessed with Jody Jody Foster right. 566 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: And yes, that was decades ago, but there are so 567 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: many examples of people literally showing up literally, I mean, 568 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: the fact that my former address was carculating in that 569 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: way caused me such cause for concern, because there have 570 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: been numerous cases of fans showing up at people's homes 571 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: to defend the honor of the person that they stand. Um. 572 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: The fact I had to to share the threats with 573 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: the FBI because I know I live in Texas. Months 574 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: after you've all the I mean, like, this stuff is real. 575 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: It's real. People die, people are traumatized. Forever they're harmed, 576 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,879 Speaker 1: they have to move. Fortunately I didn't have to move, 577 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: But like that stuff, I mean, people when some people 578 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: are telling me about their new photos getting leaked and 579 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: then they have to tell their parents or their job 580 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: about these images are circulating me on about me online, 581 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: and you're never gonna be able to live that down. 582 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: That's real. That's life changing stuff stuff. And um, I 583 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: wish that the people who hold this enormous influence, and 584 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: who recognize that they hold this enormous influence because they 585 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: understand how to activate their fan base and they're really 586 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: intentional about doing it for all kinds of reasons. I 587 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: wish that they would be much more cognizant of the 588 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 1: fact that, yeah, right now, it's just you ugly monkey bitch. 589 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: I guess you're gonna have to leap this out, you know. 590 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: And I also got all kinds of slurs. Oh, I'm 591 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 1: I'm a black woman from Texas. I've never had seen 592 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: the in word directed in me hard e r that 593 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: many times. Oh it's crazy. Um, right now, it's I'm 594 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: going to I know where you live. I'm gonna kidnap you, 595 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna mutilate you, I'm gonna pull put a bullet 596 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: in your siblings brain. But it could easily um be 597 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: death or disfigurement or real physical bodily harm. And not 598 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: actively discouraging the people that you understand you have all 599 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: of this influence on. Not actively discouraging it strikes me 600 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: as um, not right. I'll say it's not right more. 601 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 602 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: How do you think fandom and stam culture got so toxic? Like? 603 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,839 Speaker 1: What do you think happened that got us here where 604 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: someone out of a love of a musician or a 605 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: public figure who they do not know would behave in 606 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: this way? Because for me, and I think for most people, 607 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: there is not a person on this earth who is 608 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: not a blood relative to me that I would have 609 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: this kind of reaction about, certainly not anybody that I 610 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 1: don't know. And so it seems like for some of 611 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: us is probably so difficult to even imagine what you're 612 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: going through. What do you think god us here? Like, 613 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 1: how did we how do we get here? I think 614 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: people are incredibly isolated. People are lonely. They're looking for 615 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: a community, and the way that you express your fidelity 616 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: to this particular community is by behaving in very extreme ways. 617 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: I think the pandemic exacerbated this, but obviously existed before that. 618 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: You just brought up the Donald Trump example. But I've 619 00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: learned a lot about the way that these STAND community 620 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: is work, and it's almost like they operate as like 621 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: chosen families, you know. I I don't want to misappropriate 622 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 1: that language from the the lgbt Q plus community, but 623 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: it's like they support each other. I mean, this is public, 624 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: so I can say this. Um. I. After I was 625 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: tweeting about what happened to me, I saw one of 626 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: the STAND accounts tweet to somebody, don't apologize to her. 627 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: We'll raise money for you if you need a legal defense, 628 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 1: will raise money for you. Don't apologize to her, don't 629 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: take it back, don't delete it. And I was like, Oh, 630 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: y'all are really like there's very much a feeling of 631 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: we're in this together. It's it's it's all of us 632 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: against the world. It's all of us against any attack 633 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: or outside and it just so happened that on that 634 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: Monday was the the quote unquote threatening force. But yes, 635 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: that's that's how they mount up together. And I just 636 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: think that I'm sure that you've you've seen the new studies, 637 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 1: the scholarship about how just generally sad people are, you know, 638 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: despite us seeming to have all of these new means 639 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: of connection, despite us being online all day every day 640 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: and the surveillance state expanding um every second of every day, 641 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 1: people just do not have that many deep intimate relationships, 642 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 1: those connections that really ground us and keep us mentally well. 643 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: And I think that these kind of banned communities, these 644 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: obsessive communities, are a byproduct of our culture in the 645 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: United States and honestly globe late. We're just we're just 646 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 1: not dealing with these these technological evolutions the way that 647 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: we thought we would. It's just, um, I have realized 648 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: over the past few years, especially since the pandemic, that 649 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:25,399 Speaker 1: my I r L community, my my family, the new 650 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,000 Speaker 1: friends that I've made, the old friends that I've had, 651 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: romantic relationships, that is what sustains me. I love my job, 652 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 1: I love the building community. Digitally, it saved my life 653 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: in a really bad time. But I got to see 654 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: people and hug them and looked them in the eyes 655 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: and share a meal with them. That is what brings 656 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: me the most joy. And I think, Um, I realized 657 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: that's an incredible privilege that I don't take for granted, 658 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of people are not privileged in that way. Wow, 659 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,080 Speaker 1: what empathy I have to I'm reminded of this genelle 660 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,880 Speaker 1: Monate quote, we come in peace, but we mean business. 661 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,280 Speaker 1: You're like, I'm looking for justice, but I have empathy. 662 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,479 Speaker 1: Like I, I don't know if I would be able 663 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:19,399 Speaker 1: to be capable of the kind of empathetic assessment of 664 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,399 Speaker 1: what's happening emotionally with some of these people the way 665 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 1: that you are. I think that really speaks to your character. 666 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:32,439 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And I'll say, um, you can find that 667 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: community and find joy in being able to use that 668 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:47,839 Speaker 1: community to exercise violent expressions of right. Like um, I 669 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,800 Speaker 1: think that the communities that we are able to build 670 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: and take part in, we are empowered by them. We 671 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: feel power within them, and that guide so many of 672 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: our actions. And some of those actions are good, positive actions, 673 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:12,879 Speaker 1: and some of them are objectively I len't say objectively, 674 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:19,560 Speaker 1: some of them are potentially very harmful. And um, I 675 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 1: think that people are using the communities that they've built 676 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: for um negative, negative ends, and I definitely do not. 677 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: I do not have empathy for that whatsoever. I I 678 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: can empathize with what draws you to a community, but UM, 679 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: I do not empathize or understand at all the desire 680 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:47,919 Speaker 1: to rally around abuse and threats and harassment. And yes, 681 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:55,239 Speaker 1: Janelle Moune right, my natural orientation in the world is empathy. 682 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: That that guides my politics. I believe in grace. My 683 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: dad died when he was fifty, but before he died, 684 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: he said, the only thing you can't come back from 685 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: his death. And uh, I believe that you make mistakes 686 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:16,479 Speaker 1: and you do bad things, you hurt people, and then 687 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,239 Speaker 1: you do whatever you can to make it right. You 688 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: invest yourself in repairing harm and making amends and explaining 689 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: to your community why what you did was wrong and 690 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: why you shouldn't do that in the future. And I 691 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,359 Speaker 1: think that the people who participated in this against me, 692 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 1: this organized campaign of abuse and harassment, I don't think 693 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: they have to suffer for the rest of their lives. 694 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin somebody's life forever I don't 695 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: want to make sure you can never rent an apartment, 696 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: or that you can never buy a car, or you 697 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: can't get into college, or that your children have to suffer. 698 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:05,879 Speaker 1: That's not my but my aim is too. My aim 699 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: is to encourage people to invest in the things that 700 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 1: I believe in, which is, you cause harm, you make 701 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 1: it right words to live by. That's that is a 702 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,799 Speaker 1: that is a good motto. Kimberally, how can folks support you? 703 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,120 Speaker 1: Because there are there ways that people can support you 704 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,040 Speaker 1: in what you're going through right now. Yeah, I do 705 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,600 Speaker 1: have a go fund me, which I went back and 706 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: forth a long time about, but after maybe about a 707 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,319 Speaker 1: dozen people asking how they could support, I did set 708 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 1: of the go fund me. And now I am just 709 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:49,080 Speaker 1: so incredibly grateful for there is now a hundred people 710 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,160 Speaker 1: who have donated to the go fund me to help 711 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: pay for lawyers. Oh my goodness, I did not know 712 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,520 Speaker 1: how I mean, I guess I knew, but I didn't 713 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:05,879 Speaker 1: really know how expensive retaining lawyers is and investigators. And 714 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:11,759 Speaker 1: oh I've already spent thousands of dollars. So I appreciate 715 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 1: everybody who has given to that. You can follow me 716 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,360 Speaker 1: on social media. I actually am not gonna be tweeting 717 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: about it as much anymore since things are rolling and uh, 718 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 1: my counsel has that you gotta you gotta real it 719 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,759 Speaker 1: in It's like, okay, you're right, we're right. We'll set 720 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,440 Speaker 1: this aside for a second. But yeah, if you're if 721 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,880 Speaker 1: you're interested in supporting the cause, UM, I definitely welcome 722 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,360 Speaker 1: anybody who you know can spare a couple of dollars. 723 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,800 Speaker 1: You don't have to uh support sharing the story, talking 724 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:50,719 Speaker 1: about it, um, advocating on behalf of other people who 725 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: have experienced that that is enough for me. Um, I'm 726 00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: gonna be okay, I am. I have such a great 727 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,360 Speaker 1: support system, and I'm so grateful have such great networks, 728 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,000 Speaker 1: and I could not thank them enough. I would not 729 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,040 Speaker 1: be here if not for them. But if you see 730 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,600 Speaker 1: this happening to somebody else, please reach out to them, 731 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,640 Speaker 1: support them, help them in the ways that you know how, 732 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:22,120 Speaker 1: because most people aren't me. Got a story about an 733 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,080 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi. 734 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,800 Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tang godi dot com. 735 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,200 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi 736 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,360 Speaker 1: dot com. There are no girls on the Internet. Was 737 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,960 Speaker 1: created by me bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart 738 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,440 Speaker 1: Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 739 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,080 Speaker 1: Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michaelmato is 740 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Toad. If you 741 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,360 Speaker 1: want to help us grow, rate and review us on 742 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,799 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, check 743 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,000 Speaker 1: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you 744 00:52:52,040 --> 00:53:03,480 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. And I have to w