Speaker 1: I think so often when we're looking outward, whether we're
Speaker 1: judging or comparing, or whichever end of the spectrum we're
Speaker 1: looking at, it's all just so often a mirror of ourselves.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they be their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Kimmy Caulp,
Speaker 1: a TV and film producer and the host of the
Speaker 1: All the Wiser podcast. As a filmmaker, television producer, and podcaster,
Speaker 1: Kimmy has traveled the world interviewing hundreds of people with
Speaker 1: the intention of inspiring audiences. Today, Kimmy and Eric do
Speaker 1: one of the collaborative interviews that Eric has done before
Speaker 1: where they're really not talking about a specific project, but
Speaker 1: just having a conversation. Hello Kimmy, Hello Eric. As listeners
Speaker 1: would have heard, this is a special collaborative episode where
Speaker 1: I'm not interviewing you, you're not interviewing me. We're just talking.
Speaker 1: But I am going to start off by asking you
Speaker 1: a question that I ask all the guests that come
Speaker 1: on our show, which is about a parable of the
Speaker 1: two wolves. And in the parable, there's a grandparent talking
Speaker 1: with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are
Speaker 1: two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandchild stops, thinks about for a second, looks up
Speaker 1: at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins, and the
Speaker 1: grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to
Speaker 1: start off by asking you what that parable means to
Speaker 1: you in your life and in the work that you do.
Speaker 1: When I hear you say it, and when I read it,
Speaker 1: it immediately makes me think of inner dialogue and how
Speaker 1: we speak to ourselves on a daily basis, and then
Speaker 1: the implications of the ripple effect of that self view
Speaker 1: into the world right into anyone and everyone we interact with.
Speaker 1: So it's a hugely powerful statement that for me clicks
Speaker 1: immediately and goes to that place immediately of how we
Speaker 1: talk to ourselves about ourselves. And then the next step
Speaker 1: is the implication that has in the world for good
Speaker 1: or for bad. Yeah. I think that's a great place
Speaker 1: to start, which would be sort of examining the way
Speaker 1: we talk to ourselves and what our thought processes look like.
Speaker 1: You know, there was for you a fairly fundamental point
Speaker 1: where you were able to come forward and be open
Speaker 1: about your mental illness bipolar disorder, and I guess I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: did your internal self talk was that shifted much by
Speaker 1: that actual moment or that was really just sort of
Speaker 1: a beginning and then it's been you know, incremental change
Speaker 1: since then and how you talk to yourself internally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. That's a great question, and I think the
Speaker 1: answer is that it did shift specific to my mental
Speaker 1: health and my narrative around that. I don't think all
Speaker 1: the other really mean, horrible voices necessarily changed as a
Speaker 1: result of the sharing of that piece of information, but
Speaker 1: it's certainly changed and shaped the way I talked to
Speaker 1: myself about being a woman with a mental illness. So
Speaker 1: I think I had more distorted, negative, frankly mean things
Speaker 1: to say about it to myself before sharing, and in
Speaker 1: the sharing it alleviated. I think a lot of the
Speaker 1: shame and negative talk around it put some light and
Speaker 1: lightness around it for me for sure. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I know for me, you know, when I started sharing
Speaker 1: and saying that I was an alcoholic, I would have
Speaker 1: identified as an addict at that point. It certainly changes
Speaker 1: a lot of that dialogue, at least for me, because
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I had a lot of other
Speaker 1: people saying yeah, me too, Yeah me too, Yeah me too,
Speaker 1: And that idea that like lots of other people share
Speaker 1: this was really powerful. I remember reading the Narcotics Anonymous book,
Speaker 1: and this was a while before I got sober. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like I read this book and suddenly I got sober.
Speaker 1: But I remember this moment very clearly, and I don't
Speaker 1: remember a lot very well, but I was reading the
Speaker 1: Narcotics Anonymous book, and I remember I just was sobbing
Speaker 1: through the whole thing because for the first time I
Speaker 1: heard people articulating what was going on inside of me,
Speaker 1: and I was seeing like, oh, this is what I have. Oh,
Speaker 1: these are the symptoms of it. Oh, other people have
Speaker 1: felt this. It's just there's something about hearing someone else
Speaker 1: be able to help us articulate our inner world and
Speaker 1: not be alone that is so powerful. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this analogy which I shared lately,
Speaker 1: This idea of like being in a classroom, which we've
Speaker 1: all been, and you I have no idea what the
Speaker 1: how it's supposed to work. You don't get it. You know,
Speaker 1: you're just sitting there like like I am so freaking confused,
Speaker 1: And the idea of raising your hand and being afraid
Speaker 1: of what the people around you were going to think,
Speaker 1: or what the person in the front of the room
Speaker 1: was going to say, and asking the question and having
Speaker 1: like a sea of heads nod and say me too,
Speaker 1: I'm confused, and like the relief that comes. It's just
Speaker 1: this very simple thing of knowing we're not alone. And
Speaker 1: your recovery with addiction, it sounds like with an a
Speaker 1: you said, I'm not alone. It's simple and as complex
Speaker 1: as that all at once, right, Yeah, and that obviously
Speaker 1: unfolds in stages. At least for me, there was the
Speaker 1: initial like, oh, this is what I have, this is
Speaker 1: what's wrong. But then you know, when I started actually
Speaker 1: going into treatment and going to meetings, there's a part
Speaker 1: of me that was, and I think this is common,
Speaker 1: was looking to find ways I wasn't like the other
Speaker 1: people around me, both because maybe I was hoping to
Speaker 1: be able to talk myself out of needing to be there,
Speaker 1: and because you know, there's some sense of always wanting
Speaker 1: to be special in my mind. I always want to
Speaker 1: be special. I want to be exceptional. And to say
Speaker 1: I'm just like the rest of you was difficult for me,
Speaker 1: but very healing. So would you say you didn't want
Speaker 1: to identify with them? Like sometimes there's just not wanting
Speaker 1: to identify, like I want to prove to myself like
Speaker 1: oh no, no, no, it's it's not as bad as
Speaker 1: that guy or that girl. I have found that with
Speaker 1: people who are publicly living with bipolar disorder. I want
Speaker 1: to quickly explain to everyone, but that's not me, that's
Speaker 1: not me. I'm not I don't have it that bad.
Speaker 1: So did you find that in your recovery journey and
Speaker 1: your recovery story being with you know, other recovering addicts
Speaker 1: that you wanted to separate yourself. You said you did,
Speaker 1: But I guess I'm curious about digging a little deeper
Speaker 1: as to the what. Yeah. I think there's a few
Speaker 1: factors at work. I think one is still feeling my
Speaker 1: way into am I really an alcoholic? Am I really
Speaker 1: an addict? You know? And in that case, I think
Speaker 1: anybody who's paying any attention is smart enough to know this.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I'm particularly smart the implications if
Speaker 1: I'm an addict or an alcohol like, well, thank you.
Speaker 1: If I'm an addict or an alcoholic, I can't ever
Speaker 1: use again. And that is not the answer I'm looking
Speaker 1: for at this juncture in my life. Right. So there's
Speaker 1: a part of me that's a trying to get help.
Speaker 1: But there's another part of me that's trying to go,
Speaker 1: you don't really belong here, man, you can do it,
Speaker 1: like have you thought about doing it this way? You know?
Speaker 1: So I think the denial inherent in addiction is at
Speaker 1: work there. I think the other thing is It's very
Speaker 1: interesting to watch how we respond when we are thrown
Speaker 1: into a new group, because we are social creatures and
Speaker 1: we are wired to sense out hierarchy almost immediately. And
Speaker 1: I found when I get into a new group situation,
Speaker 1: I do one of two things. I've gotten much better
Speaker 1: at this, but it still happens sort of automatically, and
Speaker 1: I have to work with it, which is that I'm
Speaker 1: either looking around going I'm better than them, I'm better
Speaker 1: than them, I'm better than them, or I'm way worse
Speaker 1: than them, I'm way worse than them. And it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what the criteria is, right if it's an addiction,
Speaker 1: it has to do with addiction. If it's at a
Speaker 1: podcast of for instance, you know how many downloads do
Speaker 1: I ever, so how many they have. But groups do
Speaker 1: that to us. And I think that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons that groups can be a particularly potent form of healing,
Speaker 1: is if we recognize that it brings out our insecurity.
Speaker 1: And now I can watch how I react when I
Speaker 1: feel insecure, and again for me, it's often alternating within
Speaker 1: the same five minute window, better than worse than better
Speaker 1: than worse then, And so I think that was the
Speaker 1: other element that that had me trying to be different
Speaker 1: or special. And I think so often when we're looking outward,
Speaker 1: whether we're judging or comparing or you know, not that bad,
Speaker 1: or whichever end of the spectrum we're looking at, it's
Speaker 1: all just so often a mirror of ourselves, right, you know,
Speaker 1: whether we view it as our lacking or you know,
Speaker 1: so often what we desire, right, you see something and yeah,
Speaker 1: So it is totally fascinating that within groups, I think
Speaker 1: so much of what we're obs erving is just a
Speaker 1: mirror and reflection of our own inner world. In the
Speaker 1: spiritual habits programs that we do, we do a lot
Speaker 1: of group work, and I find it a really good
Speaker 1: opportunity to say what you and I just said to
Speaker 1: people ahead of time, like, watch what's going to happen
Speaker 1: as you end up in this group, because it is
Speaker 1: a great reflection of your inner state, and just see
Speaker 1: how you can notice it and be kind to yourself.
Speaker 1: Don't be judgmental that you're doing that, because every human
Speaker 1: on the planet does it. But notice it and then notice,
Speaker 1: is there a different way you can maybe respond? You know,
Speaker 1: can you respond in a way that is kinder to
Speaker 1: yourself or as kinder to the people around you, you know,
Speaker 1: I think seeing it can be really powerful. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: you know, when we were talking earlier, we were talking
Speaker 1: about identifying the good and the bad of labels. They
Speaker 1: can be of value and helpful. I think there's times
Speaker 1: when they can be harmful for different reasons. So you
Speaker 1: and I both, I think, started our podcast driven by
Speaker 1: clearly our own personal stories and journeys. So I was
Speaker 1: curious in recovery and you mentioned, you know, alcoholism and
Speaker 1: addiction all these years later, because how long have you
Speaker 1: been sober? Fifteen years of continuous sobriety this time, and
Speaker 1: I had eight years right before that, so, you know,
Speaker 1: twenty three years more or less, most of my adult life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so most of your adult life. And how much do
Speaker 1: you personally identify with those labels? Yeah, that's been a
Speaker 1: journey that has been unfolding. But I identify as an alcoholic, yeah,
Speaker 1: and an addict. Now, whether I would put X alcoholic
Speaker 1: or X attic in front of it, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just don't. You know. I came up in twelve
Speaker 1: step traditions and twelve step traditions, that's just what you know, Hi, America,
Speaker 1: I'm an alcoholic, right or high America. I'm an addict,
Speaker 1: so on a broad sense, I identify with those terms still,
Speaker 1: and to me what they mean is I can't drink
Speaker 1: or use drugs safely. So it's almost a reminder of
Speaker 1: that past. South. Yeah, it's a reminder just that those
Speaker 1: things have not worked out for me historically, and that
Speaker 1: it's not a good idea now. Where I ran into
Speaker 1: a problem in twelve step programs and is one of
Speaker 1: the things that led me to be much less involved
Speaker 1: than I used to be, is that oftentimes that term
Speaker 1: alcoholic or addict ends up getting a lot of other
Speaker 1: stuff thrown on top of it. That it means, and
Speaker 1: you know, it means we're different than most people. It
Speaker 1: means that we are particularly damaged in some way. It
Speaker 1: means that we have a bad character. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, even within a supportive movement
Speaker 1: like that, that different groups layer onto that. And that
Speaker 1: is what I sort of really lost a sense of
Speaker 1: because I went, you know what, the difference between say,
Speaker 1: me and you is maybe you can have a couple
Speaker 1: of drinks sessfully and I can't, right, But beyond that,
Speaker 1: we're probably very much similar in a thousand different ways, right,
Speaker 1: And I so I stopped seeing myself as being different
Speaker 1: than other people, you know, like the world as a whole,
Speaker 1: humans as a whole. But I did see myself as
Speaker 1: different in that regard, almost like well, you know, if
Speaker 1: I had a peanut allergy, Um, I can't eat peanuts.
Speaker 1: Now that is a an analogy that is a little
Speaker 1: bit simplistic, but it gets to the heart of it
Speaker 1: for me. As you're sharing that, I'm thinking that it's
Speaker 1: really about the labels in the associations that society and
Speaker 1: culture that we collectively have put around things. Because I
Speaker 1: guess where I was getting at with that question. It's
Speaker 1: something I've thought about and myself is there's owning the
Speaker 1: truth of who you are, right, even the aspects and
Speaker 1: perhaps most importantly the aspects that you may have had
Speaker 1: shame and secrecy around. But then for me it has
Speaker 1: been and that's why I was curious to hear from you,
Speaker 1: sort of a journey to not have that be the
Speaker 1: entirety of my identity. I give it so much power.
Speaker 1: Yet there's like everybody in the world, You and every
Speaker 1: human being were layered, We're dynamic, were lots of things
Speaker 1: and going back to what we feed. I feel like
Speaker 1: I was so caught up on the pieces of myself,
Speaker 1: my body, my being, my chemistry that I deemed damaged
Speaker 1: versus the other pieces that you know are often thriving,
Speaker 1: are really working well. And that's just interesting to me.
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, And I think there's a natural healing
Speaker 1: journey that happens. Right, So, when I went into treatment
Speaker 1: and recovery from addiction, or when you were newly diagnosed
Speaker 1: as bipolar, right, there is a moment where that identity
Speaker 1: takes a little bit more of a prominent, center stage role.
Speaker 1: And it's appropriate that it does. Right for a couple
Speaker 1: of different reasons. A for me, I was dying and
Speaker 1: I needed to really give that identity a lot of
Speaker 1: attention and care and love. It's also that at that moment,
Speaker 1: given where addiction took me, I wasn't much else anymore, right,
Speaker 1: I was a homeless heroin addict that was spending my
Speaker 1: time either doing drugs or stealing to get drugs. I mean,
Speaker 1: there wasn't much else to identify with at that point, right.
Speaker 1: But as I naturally got better, and as I got healthier,
Speaker 1: and as my life expanded, there was more and more
Speaker 1: and more and more of me to identify with, and
Speaker 1: that idea of myself as an addict took on less
Speaker 1: and less and less and less area of importance, to
Speaker 1: the point that the only reason I think it's particularly
Speaker 1: important to me now is just simply to remember, don't
Speaker 1: do that again, because I've tried it again after being
Speaker 1: sober and it didn't work. So that's the reminder to
Speaker 1: me is you know, don't do that. It's destructive for you.
Speaker 1: But that's about all there is to it at this point. Now.
Speaker 1: You and I talked a little bit, and I think
Speaker 1: i'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this. Also,
Speaker 1: you know, we talked about depression, and I think that's
Speaker 1: one that there's even a more nuanced one for me,
Speaker 1: and one that I'm more in the middle of sorting
Speaker 1: out than I am alcoholic orraddic. But first, i'd love
Speaker 1: to kind of hear what you think about how your
Speaker 1: identity or label as someone who has bipolar has shifted
Speaker 1: over time for you. Well, I'll answer that, but first,
Speaker 1: thank you for that answer for myself and for everyone listening,
Speaker 1: because I think it's a really good one. That what
Speaker 1: I heard you say is the more healing and attention
Speaker 1: at that time desperately needed healing and attention for you,
Speaker 1: the more important it was to focus on that piece
Speaker 1: of your identity, and that over time as you grew
Speaker 1: and all these other and healed, which was like what
Speaker 1: led me to my question, all these years later, how
Speaker 1: do you identify? And I think that's beautifully put that
Speaker 1: there was a reason for the strong identity and association
Speaker 1: and with time and healing, that sort of dissipates, yet
Speaker 1: it still lives within you, right, It's so part of
Speaker 1: your story. So yeah, we talked about depression, and I
Speaker 1: know you said you had a hard time sometimes identifying
Speaker 1: or explaining yourself. Articulating that process for you and that
Speaker 1: emotion and feeling and way of being for you, I
Speaker 1: guess would probably be the right description. So I mean
Speaker 1: my experience with depression, I have lived with a lot
Speaker 1: more hypomania and anxiety being very ever present versus periods
Speaker 1: of you know, some people with bipolar, including people in
Speaker 1: my family, go through really incredibly painful depressive states to
Speaker 1: watch and witness, and I have had a few in
Speaker 1: my life that have been crippling, but I feel much
Speaker 1: more so it's a battle and a dance with low
Speaker 1: grade depression. So it's not I'm not functioning I can't
Speaker 1: get out of, which I think probably a lot of
Speaker 1: people can relate to. It is this dark heaviness for
Speaker 1: what feels like no reason based on the circumstances of
Speaker 1: your life. And you know, sad seems like such a
Speaker 1: wimpy word to describe it, but it's hard to articulate
Speaker 1: what it feels like. And as I've often said, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure this is something you can relate to, I
Speaker 1: tend to layer shame upon that because I feel like
Speaker 1: I have a pretty good life, right, I have meaningful relationships,
Speaker 1: I have work and family that I love. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard to explain other than you're in emotional pain
Speaker 1: and it's really tricky and hard to get out of.
Speaker 1: That describes my experience with depression. I had depression earlier
Speaker 1: in life, where it felt debilitating at points. This is
Speaker 1: post getting sober, but over the years it has become
Speaker 1: as you would say, I would describe it much more
Speaker 1: as a low grade thinging. And what I often wonder
Speaker 1: about is is it depression? Is it just part of
Speaker 1: the way my personality and my mind and I work.
Speaker 1: Am I just melancholic? Right, That's what they would would
Speaker 1: have described. You know some people the melancholic temperament, they say,
Speaker 1: I think that's me. And so where I have been,
Speaker 1: you know, over the last number of years, is trying
Speaker 1: to balance using a word like I have depression, balance
Speaker 1: the benefit of using a label like that versus the downside.
Speaker 1: So the benefit to it is to say, this thing
Speaker 1: happens to me. I know that it happens. Here's the
Speaker 1: ways that I know how to treat it. Here's how
Speaker 1: I can work with it. I can be kinder to myself.
Speaker 1: Perhaps when it's happening. I cannot make a big deal
Speaker 1: out of it. The world seems like it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: anything today. But that's just not because the world doesn't
Speaker 1: mean anything. It's just because that's how you get time
Speaker 1: to time and to relax. Like that's enormously helpful, right.
Speaker 1: The counter that I've started to really look at is
Speaker 1: is by calling it depression. Am I taking some sort
Speaker 1: of normal range of human functioning? Am I labeling it
Speaker 1: in a way that either causes it to amplify or
Speaker 1: stick around? Or am I feeding it in some way
Speaker 1: by giving myself that diagnosis and I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1: Like I said, I'm still kind of working with it.
Speaker 1: And it's not a hugely important question for me right
Speaker 1: now because I think I hold it very lightly. But
Speaker 1: it's just little things like lately I've really been this
Speaker 1: is probably the last year I've really been exploring the
Speaker 1: idea of am I depressed or am I just tired?
Speaker 1: Because you know what, for me, they feel very very similar.
Speaker 1: But tired is just I'm tired, go to bed. Eric
Speaker 1: Depressed is a bigger problem, right, It causes a little
Speaker 1: bit more like wow, like I need to do something
Speaker 1: about that, right, whereas tired you just go I'll just
Speaker 1: go to bed. And so again that's where depression has
Speaker 1: been more of a nuanced element of that diagnosis. And
Speaker 1: you know, do I still have it? Do I not
Speaker 1: have it? How do I talk about it? What are
Speaker 1: the ways to engage with that label that give me
Speaker 1: the benefit of having a label, but minimize the downsides
Speaker 1: of having a label, which is that we start to
Speaker 1: live sometimes into our expectations. Yeah it's hard, you know,
Speaker 1: it's you're talking about depression and how it presents and
Speaker 1: shows up for you. I was thinking that for me,
Speaker 1: always an indicator is I feel incredibly empty and lonely,
Speaker 1: And when I know that it's depression, is that I
Speaker 1: feel incredibly empty and lonely well in connection with other people.
Speaker 1: So I can be in a room with people that
Speaker 1: I love that light me up, and that connection is
Speaker 1: not firing, right, I'm sitting there in it. And so
Speaker 1: it is hard that distinction between. There are days for
Speaker 1: everyone on the planet where it's hard to be a
Speaker 1: freaking human and the outlook is depressing or you're feeling melancholy,
Speaker 1: and it's nuanced, right, But it can be helpful to
Speaker 1: give language to anything, right, to just simply state, at
Speaker 1: least I know what this is, right, but you know,
Speaker 1: and it's interesting. I'm a mom of young kids, and
Speaker 1: often people are, you know, what the world tells them.
Speaker 1: They are certainly in the parental you know, if you're
Speaker 1: constantly saying, you know, well, you're the athletic one, or
Speaker 1: you're so I think how we identify in the labels
Speaker 1: we continually give ourselves. It is a delicate dance, right.
Speaker 1: So it's times when it's helpful, as you can say,
Speaker 1: I don't need to judge myself because I understand that
Speaker 1: this is depression and this is what it looks like
Speaker 1: and how it presents and shows up for me, but
Speaker 1: not over identifying like anything. I think, you know, there's
Speaker 1: two ways to look at it. Hey, everyone, this is Jenny.
Speaker 1: One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear
Speaker 1: from listeners of the show, and something we hear quite
Speaker 1: often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding
Speaker 1: the Good Wolf is remembering. Because life is busy and
Speaker 1: we get caught up in routines and we're all on
Speaker 1: autopilots so much of the time. So to help with that,
Speaker 1: we've started sending a couple of text messages after each
Speaker 1: episode is released to listeners who sign up for them,
Speaker 1: and it's something we're offering for free. A listener wrote
Speaker 1: us and said the message has caused me to pause,
Speaker 1: even if just for a moment, and helped me to
Speaker 1: remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront
Speaker 1: of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part, and the
Speaker 1: text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to
Speaker 1: hear from us a few times a week via text,
Speaker 1: go to one you feed dot net slash text and
Speaker 1: sign up for free. So how do you work with
Speaker 1: you know? A diagnosis of bipolar to again balance the
Speaker 1: positive aspects of it being a diagnosis, a label, or
Speaker 1: do you see any negative sides to that identity? How
Speaker 1: do you work with this question of identity and your diagnosis.
Speaker 1: So it's funny because the thing I didn't talk about
Speaker 1: forever I now feel like I talk about all the
Speaker 1: time I write about it. I talked about it. Everyone's like, God,
Speaker 1: is she going to talk about, you know, living with
Speaker 1: bipolar again? But I still, to be honest, have a
Speaker 1: lot of issues around it, for lack of a better word,
Speaker 1: So part of me, like I said, liberating, I have
Speaker 1: a kinder, gentler narrative around quote unquote being mentally ill
Speaker 1: or living with a mental illness is a nicer, kinder
Speaker 1: way to describe it. But at the same time, like
Speaker 1: I said, I often want to distance myself to protect
Speaker 1: myself for people judging me as crazy or unhinged. You know,
Speaker 1: I can't control how the world experiences that label and
Speaker 1: that diagnosis, And when I'm openly, you know, putting it
Speaker 1: on myself, it feels a little out of control and
Speaker 1: scary and vulnerable still, and I find myself trying to
Speaker 1: associate with like historical figures in a positive light, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really funny. I'm like, have you read
Speaker 1: that Winston Churchill may have been bipolar? And then I'll
Speaker 1: quickly jump to somebody who is, you know, publicly going
Speaker 1: through something you know, very exaggerated and particularly maybe harmful
Speaker 1: and embarrassing, and say, oh, no, no, no, but that's
Speaker 1: not me. So I still have a ton of insecurities
Speaker 1: and I'm still tripped up by it. Yet I get
Speaker 1: that when I was diagnosed, if I saw somebody, an
Speaker 1: older woman living a life that felt meaningful and right
Speaker 1: rich in many ways, who said I have this thing
Speaker 1: and I've learned how to manage and live with it,
Speaker 1: that would have been hugely valuable and hopeful to me.
Speaker 1: So it's like I'm walking that tight rope because I
Speaker 1: think that's probably worth it. Absolutely. I've always tried to
Speaker 1: air on the side of being more open about addiction,
Speaker 1: about depression again appropriate, and if I have to air
Speaker 1: on one side or the other, it's to be more open.
Speaker 1: And it's largely because I know how valuable it is
Speaker 1: for me to have heard other people talk about that stuff.
Speaker 1: So in my professional career, before I did this, I
Speaker 1: was in the software development industry for a lot of years,
Speaker 1: and I was fairly open about those things there and
Speaker 1: again appropriate, I didn't waltz into every medium like do
Speaker 1: you know I used to be a heroin addict? You know? Um?
Speaker 1: But what was interesting was that over time I started
Speaker 1: to find that two things happened. One was, over the years,
Speaker 1: different people would come up to me, often much later,
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, Eric, UM, my brothers really struggling
Speaker 1: with addiction. You know, what should I do? Or I've
Speaker 1: been dealing with depression? What did you do? So? You
Speaker 1: know some of that which really helps others. But then
Speaker 1: I also sort of found it was in some ways
Speaker 1: a professional superpower. And what I mean by that was
Speaker 1: so much of the work I did was about getting
Speaker 1: people to work well together and build good teams and
Speaker 1: just how does everybody come together? And that level of
Speaker 1: open sharing often leads to people trusting you. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying I ever did it for a professional advantage. That
Speaker 1: is not what I'm saying, and that's probably bad way
Speaker 1: to approach it, but that it did turn out to
Speaker 1: not only be good for others, but I think in
Speaker 1: general was good for me in precisely the place I
Speaker 1: was most afraid that sharing it would be right. I
Speaker 1: thought that it would be a liability and it didn't
Speaker 1: seem to be. And then of course in general for me,
Speaker 1: it was just good to not be carrying secrets, to
Speaker 1: just be able to be who I really am. Now
Speaker 1: more than ever, people just want people to be real.
Speaker 1: And when you're in a conversation or you meet somebody
Speaker 1: new in the first time, they share some piece of
Speaker 1: themselves that is real or raw, or has some depth
Speaker 1: or weight to it, you know there's a connection to it.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, we had this moment and so this
Speaker 1: act which you're talking about in a more public setting
Speaker 1: like in work, which first of all, nobody with a
Speaker 1: voice like yours should be a software developer. You need
Speaker 1: to be in front of a microphone. Well it took
Speaker 1: me a lot of years, but here we are. Thank you.
Speaker 1: It's a really powerful place of human connection, and you know,
Speaker 1: now we know there's research and science around it, but
Speaker 1: I do think it's a little bit superpowered. There's some
Speaker 1: magic to it. I have seen it for sure, even
Speaker 1: in just sharing this podcast and being so open and
Speaker 1: often see people And I don't know how to explain
Speaker 1: it other than the way that they interact with me
Speaker 1: is almost like as if we're closer than reflective of
Speaker 1: the time we've spent together. But I think it's because
Speaker 1: they trust me, right, They feel like, oh yeah, Kimmy
Speaker 1: tells me everything she trust. I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: had that experience, have you? Oh? Yeah, yeah? And there's
Speaker 1: a lot of studies out there. I've looked a lot
Speaker 1: into building friendships as adults, because loneliness is a real
Speaker 1: problem in our world, and you know, throughout my years
Speaker 1: of coaching people, I've just come across a good number
Speaker 1: of people who are kind of isolated. So I've looked
Speaker 1: into how you build friends as an adult, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of research out there that seems to show
Speaker 1: that to build friendships as adults, it takes a lot
Speaker 1: of hours of time together. It's why you often become
Speaker 1: close with people at work. You just have the requisite
Speaker 1: amount of time. So it takes a lot of time.
Speaker 1: But I have also found that in certain circumstances that
Speaker 1: time can be greatly reduced, and it does tend to
Speaker 1: be when people are coming together around a shared human vulnerability.
Speaker 1: You know, I made friends with people in twelve step
Speaker 1: programs way faster than I would outside of them. In
Speaker 1: our spiritual habits programs, often people come together much more
Speaker 1: quickly because they're they're really sharing from the heart. Now, again,
Speaker 1: this does not mean like show up to your local
Speaker 1: food bank and tell everybody you have bipolar and hope
Speaker 1: to make new friends, right, Like, there's a nuance to this,
Speaker 1: but there is something to be said for in general,
Speaker 1: that we can form closer connections when we are being
Speaker 1: fully authentically ourselves and when we're connecting around I guess
Speaker 1: I'll just use the word vulnerability. I feel like it's
Speaker 1: an overused word maybe these days. Yeah, we're sharing around
Speaker 1: of vulnerability or a common issue. It can really accelerate
Speaker 1: the process of getting close to people. I love that
Speaker 1: you brought up adult friendships because I think they're so invaluable.
Speaker 1: They're so important, and it does take time and shared
Speaker 1: experience and nurturing and effort, which can be hard, right
Speaker 1: whether you're dealing with life and how much time you have,
Speaker 1: or whether you're dealing with depression, and like it feels
Speaker 1: hard enough to freaking get in the shower, like do
Speaker 1: I really have time to call this person? Planet? So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm curious if there's anything else you know poignant or
Speaker 1: you know interesting or powerful that you've learned around adult friendships. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a few things. I'm also
Speaker 1: curious about male friendships because I think it's so different
Speaker 1: for men. Well, I am very blessed. I don't have
Speaker 1: a lot of friends, but I have a good number
Speaker 1: of very close for ends that I have had for
Speaker 1: a long time. You know, I started this podcast partially
Speaker 1: because my best friend Chris and I weren't spending much
Speaker 1: time together, and he's an audio engineer, and so one
Speaker 1: of my primary motivations was I'll start this podcast and
Speaker 1: we'll have to do something together and I'll see him
Speaker 1: much more, which turned out to absolutely be a stroke
Speaker 1: of genius because it has happened deeply. We are Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's awesome. He's listening right now. Hi, Chris, Hi Chris, Chris,
Speaker 1: what can you tell us about friendship? Chris could tell
Speaker 1: you a lot. He's a savant friendships. Actually, Chris and
Speaker 1: I did a episode, it's our five episode. We were
Speaker 1: interviewed by my partner Jenny, who also sometimes does interviews
Speaker 1: on the show. She interviewed Chris and I all about
Speaker 1: what friendship is, which was really great because it was
Speaker 1: so fun to reflect on, you know, thirty five years
Speaker 1: of friendship with somebody. So it's so funny you brought
Speaker 1: that up because as you're not gonna necessarily have this
Speaker 1: experience because of Chris. But when people have asked about podcasting,
Speaker 1: and there's so many things that I love, the creative process,
Speaker 1: the people that I meet, but I often described it
Speaker 1: as very lonely, and I felt isolated because I realized
Speaker 1: how much I value collaboration. That I loved working in
Speaker 1: particular with really smart, creative people, and everything I had
Speaker 1: done leading up to podcasting was in some level of
Speaker 1: collaboration or partnership, and that that energy fed me and
Speaker 1: I felt I was better as a result. Like literally,
Speaker 1: I feel more energetic when I'm sitting at a table
Speaker 1: brainstorming with other It was a silo, and you know,
Speaker 1: often I'm in a closet like sweating recording. And so
Speaker 1: during COVID, my friend Christie, who people who listen to
Speaker 1: this podcast it reminds me of you and Chris, I
Speaker 1: reached out and she has a degree in positive psychology,
Speaker 1: and I said, we tell these really incredible stories, but
Speaker 1: I'd love our listeners to be able to take action
Speaker 1: upon that inspiration. Do you want to start exploring whether
Speaker 1: we can work together? So I feel like we're still
Speaker 1: trying to figure that out. But the reason every time
Speaker 1: we talk about like, is it working, is it not working?
Speaker 1: Should we'd be doing this? We're like, but we talk
Speaker 1: so much. I mean, the fact is it it reconnected
Speaker 1: us and this is my childhood best friend. We would
Speaker 1: go six months without talking and now we talk and
Speaker 1: we are on Foxer And for both of us being
Speaker 1: somewhat perfectionists, we hold it so loosely like the product itself,
Speaker 1: like whether it works, whether it's quote unquote good enough,
Speaker 1: because we get to be friends and we get to
Speaker 1: collaborate and we get to talk about meaningful things and
Speaker 1: we have a date on the calendar, and so it's
Speaker 1: been so like personally enriching and it's made the podcast
Speaker 1: a lot less lonely for me. So I'm glad you
Speaker 1: have Chris, and I'm glad I've had Christie these past
Speaker 1: two years. Indeed, and I think we've identified a pattern
Speaker 1: that I would not have identified before about adult for
Speaker 1: and ship, which is perhaps you know, one way to
Speaker 1: do it is to have something that you do together,
Speaker 1: you know, a project. You know. One way that we
Speaker 1: know adult friendships happen is through volunteering, but only through
Speaker 1: a particular type of volunteering. And it's the type of
Speaker 1: volunteering that occurs over and over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: So a lot of times we will make a volunteer commitment,
Speaker 1: I'll go to the food bank this week and volunteer
Speaker 1: and maybe I'll make some friends. Right, and we go
Speaker 1: and we volunteer, and we don't make any friends, and
Speaker 1: we go, Well, that didn't work, right, Versus a commitment
Speaker 1: that said, all right, I'm going to go to every
Speaker 1: Wednesday to the food bank for the next three months.
Speaker 1: That gives you a really good opportunity to build a
Speaker 1: friendship because you're gonna see the same people over and over.
Speaker 1: I mean, I probably won't look you in the eye
Speaker 1: tell our third or fourth meeting. Right, Like, I'm a
Speaker 1: shy person, you know, Throw me into a group of
Speaker 1: people I don't know, and it takes me a little
Speaker 1: while before I sort of really kind of come out
Speaker 1: of my shell, unless it's in a state where I'm
Speaker 1: like the host of the thing. But again, throw me
Speaker 1: in any random soup kitchen on a Wednesday night with
Speaker 1: a bunch of people who know each other and you
Speaker 1: don't know me. It will be three or four weeks
Speaker 1: before I start to really be able to be myself.
Speaker 1: It just takes me a while, and I think a
Speaker 1: lot of us are that way. So volunteering is a
Speaker 1: great way to make friendships. But we want to make
Speaker 1: sure that the type of volunteering we do is set
Speaker 1: up so that we have many, many exposures to people
Speaker 1: over time instead of like, oh, I volunteered to run
Speaker 1: registration at this five K, Like that's great, but you're
Speaker 1: not probably going to walk away from that experience with
Speaker 1: a new friend. You might, but knowing what we know,
Speaker 1: it takes time. Yeah, And I think I don't know
Speaker 1: that working out would be the good or bad analogy,
Speaker 1: But you know if you go to the gym once
Speaker 1: or twice versus every Tuesday and Thursday after. But I
Speaker 1: do think those friendships, whether it's you and I, have
Speaker 1: created it through these podcasts, Right, there's a point connection
Speaker 1: that's on the calendar. But I've often found in the
Speaker 1: past when my friendships have been really strong, there is
Speaker 1: some sort of anchoring piece, Like I used to have
Speaker 1: a friend and every Friday morning we walk like it
Speaker 1: just we were set up for connection and success because
Speaker 1: we had woven each other into that. So yeah, whether
Speaker 1: it's every Sunday night you go to the same Chinese
Speaker 1: restaurant or you know that repetition being proactive and intentional
Speaker 1: about I need to feel like I have more deep
Speaker 1: and meaningful friendships and this is a path to that,
Speaker 1: right and finding a shared experience that both people enjoy.
Speaker 1: And you just hit on a really important behavioral principle,
Speaker 1: like I work a lot on, you know, how do
Speaker 1: we change our behaviors? And the general behavioral principle is
Speaker 1: separate decision from action, meaning whatever it is you want
Speaker 1: to do, you've got a plan ahead for it and
Speaker 1: set it up. But what you gave was a particularly
Speaker 1: great example where you basically make a decision every Friday.
Speaker 1: This happens, so I don't have to keep redeciding when
Speaker 1: I'm going to see Chris. It's every Friday. Now, of course,
Speaker 1: not every Friday happens I'm traveling, we don't do it,
Speaker 1: but the rule is we're together instead of us having
Speaker 1: to figure out when we're going to get together over
Speaker 1: and over, right, now we only have to figure out
Speaker 1: when we won't get together, right, So it's structured in
Speaker 1: such a way that it's more likely to happen. And
Speaker 1: so much of behavior in life does come down to
Speaker 1: environment and structure, and so that's a really smart way
Speaker 1: to structure that friendship element. All right, So I loved it.
Speaker 1: I'm going to shift this from a Friday coffee date
Speaker 1: with Chris to comparative suffering. Chris's life is way worse
Speaker 1: than mind that. Let's just compare ourselves to Chris, and
Speaker 1: we're going to feel so much better about ourselves. People
Speaker 1: are going to pick my life over Chris's. So let's
Speaker 1: just I'm sorry, Chris. We love you, Chris. So you
Speaker 1: and I were both clearly drawn to some extent to
Speaker 1: understanding and being curious about suffering and what that looks
Speaker 1: like for people. I certainly become very aware if you
Speaker 1: go back and look at history of people I've interviewed,
Speaker 1: that's certainly uh indicative. But this notion of comparative suffering
Speaker 1: is something that I have learned through the podcast, in
Speaker 1: particular an interview I did with Dr Edith Eager. Have
Speaker 1: you had her on your podcast? I have, yes, I mean, wow,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you are as obsessed as I am.
Speaker 1: But you know what amazed me about her. She's a
Speaker 1: very old woman, yes, right, And so we'd be talking
Speaker 1: and I'd ask her a question, she'd start to answer,
Speaker 1: and she would just kind of wander off mentally, and
Speaker 1: I thought, well, she's just lost the thread. She's an
Speaker 1: old lady, she's so she's wandering around sort of doing this,
Speaker 1: and then she just comes right back around and totally
Speaker 1: sticks the landing. I'm like, she was with me the
Speaker 1: entire time. I just couldn't follow her. Wow. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: had the same experience, and I'm thinking, like, okay, what
Speaker 1: is like the tech check situation going to be having
Speaker 1: a nine four year old guest? Like I was just
Speaker 1: not convinced that it was going to be smooth, you know,
Speaker 1: getting on and Mike checks an audio. Granted, she has
Speaker 1: really incredible people who work with her, but I mean,
Speaker 1: she is significantly more savvy than you know, four year olds,
Speaker 1: I know. I mean, she's pretty darned impressive. For those
Speaker 1: of you who have not listened, I hope you will
Speaker 1: listen to Eric's interviewer, My interviewer, both with Dr Dye
Speaker 1: eager Dr Eadie, who is a year old Holocaust survivor
Speaker 1: who published her first memoir at ninety But a big
Speaker 1: thing she talks about and she really introduced me to,
Speaker 1: is this notion of comparative suffering. And it's been really
Speaker 1: interesting for me in particular because the stories on my
Speaker 1: podcast All the Wiser are so often unthinkable, harrowing, you know,
Speaker 1: to people will say, oh, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: your podcast. It's really put in perspective like I shouldn't
Speaker 1: be that upset that my husband left me and I'm
Speaker 1: going through divorce. Well, what Dr Eadie would say is
Speaker 1: you should absolutely your pain is real. Your suffering has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the fact that the Holocaust happen
Speaker 1: and I suffered. And so she's really into that that
Speaker 1: is not the point or that it's helpful to anyone
Speaker 1: right when we compare our suffering, but instead to honor it,
Speaker 1: regard list of what that suffering looks like, because it's
Speaker 1: all real, right, and there isn't healing or a path
Speaker 1: forward without that first step of just honoring that your
Speaker 1: thing is really hard and that you're in it. And
Speaker 1: so as somebody who endured the greatest hell on Earth, right,
Speaker 1: can you imagine something that is more steep and the
Speaker 1: deepest of suffering. And she's giving permission and validating everyone
Speaker 1: around her that their pain is real and it deserves
Speaker 1: to be seen, and it deserves to be heard, and
Speaker 1: they deserve to honor it so they can move through it.
Speaker 1: I just thought was really beautiful of her and illuminating
Speaker 1: and helpful for me to understand what comparative suffering is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a pretty remarkable thing coming from her to me.
Speaker 1: This is a little bit like the concept of labels
Speaker 1: and identity, meaning that there's a fair amount of nuance
Speaker 1: in the conversation, and there's a fair amount of You
Speaker 1: can use these things in helpful or harmful ways. And
Speaker 1: so the harmful way that comparative suffering shows up is
Speaker 1: I go, yes, my wife left me, but I'm not
Speaker 1: in Ukraine, so Eric, quit being a little baby and
Speaker 1: get over it. Right. That's using comparative suffering in a
Speaker 1: really damaging way. And I won't heal from that divorce, right,
Speaker 1: and I will perpetuate that pain on down throughout the world. Right,
Speaker 1: that's the negative use of it. I do think there
Speaker 1: is a place, but again, it's nuanced for perspective exactly.
Speaker 1: There is a place to say, you know what, I
Speaker 1: do have a lot of great things in my life.
Speaker 1: You know, I do have a lot of benefit. And
Speaker 1: so the way I look at this, and maybe we're
Speaker 1: sort of strained out of comparative suffering, but this is
Speaker 1: how I sort of think about it, is that my
Speaker 1: goal is not to eliminate despite the parable of the wolves,
Speaker 1: my goal is not to eliminate either the positive or
Speaker 1: the negative from my life. Right. It's to say, if
Speaker 1: there are bad things happening, acknowledge them, work with them,
Speaker 1: heal them, but don't lose sight of the fact that
Speaker 1: there's also lots and lots of blessings. Both those things
Speaker 1: can be true at the same time. And sort of
Speaker 1: like when I said, you know, early on, for me
Speaker 1: an addiction, the focus really had to be on me
Speaker 1: as an addict and healing that because that's what was
Speaker 1: present when we're in the midst of a great deal
Speaker 1: of suffering. I think the right orientation generally is tend
Speaker 1: to your pain, work with it, heal it, don't keep
Speaker 1: trying to minimize it away by saying, oh, well, I've
Speaker 1: got all these other good things, and not to get
Speaker 1: stuck in that right, because I can get stuck in
Speaker 1: a place where nothing is good enough no matter what
Speaker 1: I do. I could not agree more. And it's this
Speaker 1: notion of both and right, that the both things are
Speaker 1: incredibly true and incredibly powerful, and so you're not minimizing
Speaker 1: your pain and suffering or anyone else's um And also
Speaker 1: again cliche, trying to be careful when I say, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, this word is overused or this cliche, because
Speaker 1: I do try and remind myself that probably not everyone
Speaker 1: is as immersed as we are in this particular content. Right,
Speaker 1: It's like we're drawn to this work. But so what
Speaker 1: I heard you say is when you said, you know,
Speaker 1: there's this other piece that is helpful. What it made
Speaker 1: me think of is the gratitude is where I'm getting at.
Speaker 1: Where it's saying this is gratitude practice. You may have
Speaker 1: heard it. You may be like, whatever, I know, I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to be thankful, man? Is that a powerful tool?
Speaker 1: It works for me? And like again going back to
Speaker 1: this depressive, low grade depression, feelings of emptiness or loneliness
Speaker 1: if I actively do it, and not just one thing,
Speaker 1: but why I am grateful for my husband being present
Speaker 1: with my daughter. So I could, you know, just getting
Speaker 1: really specific in your gratitude. That for me was a
Speaker 1: big jump just from writing down a thing but then
Speaker 1: understanding why it had a deeply positive impact, and just
Speaker 1: some of the minutia, the small stuff, not just like
Speaker 1: the friendly checkout person, but like I was in a
Speaker 1: really bad mood and she smiled at me, and it
Speaker 1: made just writing it down, And like the gratitude, it works,
Speaker 1: it really works. And so maybe that's I'm just reflecting
Speaker 1: back to what I heard you say, which is honor
Speaker 1: the suffering, but also kind of looking around and being
Speaker 1: grateful for what's working, even if that's just really small stuff,
Speaker 1: and diving into fully understanding the large impact of those
Speaker 1: things that seems small. Yeah, I could go deep down
Speaker 1: a gratitude rabbit hole, which I'm not sure we want
Speaker 1: to do just yet. I just taught a weekend workshop
Speaker 1: at Omega Institute in New York and there were two topics,
Speaker 1: hope and gratitude, and Dr Eager made an appearance, not
Speaker 1: in person, I mean I use some of her words
Speaker 1: as a teaching point. So I don't want to go
Speaker 1: too far down that rabbit hole just yet. Let's come
Speaker 1: back to comparative suffering and maybe talk about how does
Speaker 1: it show up in your life? What are the ways
Speaker 1: that comparative suffering shows up in the unhealthy way that
Speaker 1: we've talked about it being. I'm not a person who
Speaker 1: I feel like minimizes other people's suffering a lot, even
Speaker 1: my kids. Like I know some people will be like,
Speaker 1: well that's dumb, it's you know, twelve year old girls
Speaker 1: stuff like I don't think that I minimize other people's suffering.
Speaker 1: I think I have a lot of empathy and compassion
Speaker 1: around mostly all suffering. It shows up for me personally,
Speaker 1: and feeling shame around my suffering that it is not
Speaker 1: enough or it is somehow wrong, like what's wrong with you?
Speaker 1: You have so much, you have so much privileged, Like
Speaker 1: what the F for you? Seriously, like trying to say
Speaker 1: that you're suffering? Really So, I think that I compare
Speaker 1: my own pain and suffering and feel ashamed of having
Speaker 1: it in comparison to other people's suffering that mine doesn't
Speaker 1: feel particularly valid, if that makes sense. Yep, So you
Speaker 1: honored in other people and tend to think you shouldn't
Speaker 1: have it. As you were just talking, I thought about
Speaker 1: the extremes of human experience are often helpful teaching tools. Right,
Speaker 1: that's some of what you're doing on your show, right,
Speaker 1: you are bringing in extremes of human experience for what
Speaker 1: they have to teach all of us. And Holocaust survivors
Speaker 1: like Dr Eager or Ellie Vizel or Victor Frankel, they're
Speaker 1: inspiring because it's such an extreme thing. And then thought
Speaker 1: of another extreme example that shows the sort of the
Speaker 1: comparative suffering element, and it is really rich and famous
Speaker 1: and successful people who kill themselves. Right, Like you know,
Speaker 1: Robin Williams came to mind, right, and he's a little
Speaker 1: bit more complex because of some of the brain injury
Speaker 1: stuff might have been having. But the point being, we
Speaker 1: can know that everybody's suffering is equal because we can
Speaker 1: take somebody who has all the privilege in the world
Speaker 1: at that point, all the money, all the fame, and
Speaker 1: they suffer so badly they kill themselves. Right. Look at
Speaker 1: Anthony Bourdain, you look at Kate Spade. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wrote a statistic recently and I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's true, but let's pretend it's directionally true, because I'm
Speaker 1: sure it's in the neighborhood of being true, the more
Speaker 1: wealthy and safe and prosperous your zip code is, the
Speaker 1: more likely you are to kill yourself. Yeah, that's startling,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean it does speak to that all
Speaker 1: types of suffering are really real and meaningful. Do they
Speaker 1: say why or is there any sort of clarity? No,
Speaker 1: I think that there's a variety. I don't think anybody
Speaker 1: fully knows, right, in the same way that we don't
Speaker 1: fully know, Like, why does it appear that depression and
Speaker 1: anxiety rates are going up so much? Is it that
Speaker 1: really depression and anxiety is going up? Is it that
Speaker 1: we report it better? Is there something about the modern
Speaker 1: Western ways of living? I think everybody's got theories on it, right,
Speaker 1: And my theory tends to be, like the great song
Speaker 1: by the band DAWs, is that it's a little bit
Speaker 1: of everything, you know, it's a little bit of everything.
Speaker 1: That seems like a really good explanation, a true one,
Speaker 1: A little bit of everything. Yeah, but comparative suffering may
Speaker 1: have a role. And now I'm firmly in speculation. I
Speaker 1: always like to be clear when I'm just making things up.
Speaker 1: So now I'm just making something up or or speculating
Speaker 1: which would be I wonder if in the wealthier zip
Speaker 1: codes the comparative suffering issue manifests in that there is
Speaker 1: an element of that extra layer of shame that you
Speaker 1: talked about, which is like, I'm doing so well, I
Speaker 1: am fortunate, I am lucky, and yet I still feel
Speaker 1: so miserable. I must really be broken. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: it's a larger issue, right with stigma and what we
Speaker 1: have said historically about mental illness and like pull yourself
Speaker 1: up by your boot, get over it, and not treating
Speaker 1: it what it is right, which is brain health. Like,
Speaker 1: regardless of where you are socioeconomically or where you're living,
Speaker 1: if you have cancer, you have cancer, right, And and
Speaker 1: so I think with mental health, the fact that somehow
Speaker 1: there is shame, right, I shouldn't be feeling this way.
Speaker 1: And as we know, shame leads to getting help and treatment,
Speaker 1: and it leads to the help that comes from healing
Speaker 1: and connecting with people around you by virtue of sharing,
Speaker 1: because you don't share when you're ashamed. So when you
Speaker 1: say it's a little bit of this and that, it
Speaker 1: makes sense to me, and you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: these illnesses like bipolar frankly can be a very fatal illness.
Speaker 1: People die from it, you know, commonly. Um, But because
Speaker 1: it's a mental illness, it's trickier for sure. I guess
Speaker 1: maybe the message would be, if you're suffering, really suffering,
Speaker 1: get some help, find ways to not suffer alone so much,
Speaker 1: because I think that's a big part of both you
Speaker 1: and I story is let's end the secrecy, let's end
Speaker 1: the shame, and let's you know, move into communion with
Speaker 1: others around these things. Amen, brother, Amen. So we're nearly
Speaker 1: out of time, and there are many weighty topics that
Speaker 1: we could talk about. We could talk about them all day,
Speaker 1: and we have been. But I would be completely remiss
Speaker 1: in my duties to my own heart if I did
Speaker 1: not bring up a book or a series of books
Speaker 1: that you have been a participant of, called a Letter
Speaker 1: to my Dog. Dogs are so incredibly healing to me.
Speaker 1: I think I learned how to love much better from
Speaker 1: a dog named Sadie. Tell me a little bit about
Speaker 1: that book and why you did that. Yeah. So, my
Speaker 1: maiden name is Davidson, and I grew up with a
Speaker 1: dog named Harley. Harley Davidson. So I did not have
Speaker 1: a dog when I did a Letter to my dog.
Speaker 1: Had just left working for Oprah Winfrey for the show
Speaker 1: and then for the network. There is a huge amount
Speaker 1: of dog lovers in that world, and I had worked
Speaker 1: on a personal project for her for the anniversary of
Speaker 1: her show. It was a book on my way out,
Speaker 1: you know, going to my next chapter. I was at
Speaker 1: a big dinner and this really accomplished photographer who's also
Speaker 1: in particular known for her photographs of animals and dogs,
Speaker 1: is at the table. A book publishers at the table.
Speaker 1: One of my boss is who's a huge dog person.
Speaker 1: And I was a producer, like I oversaw and executed,
Speaker 1: and we you know, breaking bread, drinking wine. Was like,
Speaker 1: we should do a book about dogs. And we're like,
Speaker 1: how could it be different? We're like, what if people
Speaker 1: were letters to their dogs and was called And I
Speaker 1: was like, we could get kindergarten classes, and we could
Speaker 1: launch a blog and we could get famous people. So
Speaker 1: that's what we did. We spent three years and it
Speaker 1: was like we poured our hearts into this. We had
Speaker 1: competitions and schools. We had Tony Bennett writing letters, and
Speaker 1: Robin traveled around the country photographing the dogs, and I
Speaker 1: was in charge of finding all the letters and the stories,
Speaker 1: and we published this book, A Letter to My Dog,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's in paper source and anthropology. And
Speaker 1: we went to Costco and did book signings and we
Speaker 1: would like be next to the guy with the hot dogs,
Speaker 1: and everyone would want the free food and not our book.
Speaker 1: And it was a total journey. But now I do
Speaker 1: have a dog who I love madly. Waffles Um is
Speaker 1: our dog and it's a great dog name. Yes, thank
Speaker 1: you Waffles. The next thing I'm going to say is
Speaker 1: not a joke, but Waffles is currently filming a music
Speaker 1: video with Beyonce. You're you're serious. I'm serious, and so
Speaker 1: we already know I'm a little crazy, But just so
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a doggy agent. Mom our dog
Speaker 1: walker works on training animals on sets and asked if
Speaker 1: Waffles could participate in that she needed a dog, But
Speaker 1: it ends up it's with Beyonce. So he's been with
Speaker 1: Beyonce for the past week. That is absolutely incredible. I
Speaker 1: am so glad I chose to go down this line
Speaker 1: of thinking. Does it bother you that you've been spending
Speaker 1: you know, your entire adult life in the entertainment industry
Speaker 1: and Waffles in his young career, is already far more
Speaker 1: famous than you. Well, we were dying laughing because he's
Speaker 1: been dropped off a couple of times in between, you know,
Speaker 1: hanging out with Bay and I was like saying, like,
Speaker 1: I'm like, he has so much information and he can't
Speaker 1: tell us, like is she good to her people? Like
Speaker 1: was Jay there? Like what was she wearing? Like spill it, Waffle,
Speaker 1: spill it. And I'm just looking at him. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you are just with Beyonce and you can't give me
Speaker 1: any information. Yes, so a little of a tangent, but
Speaker 1: hopefully in entertaining one literally and the healing power of
Speaker 1: dogs and the joy factor. I feel like bringing a
Speaker 1: dog into our lives spark so much joy and silliness
Speaker 1: and spontaneity that just would not exist. I think it's
Speaker 1: been great for relationships because walking the dog sometimes when
Speaker 1: we can get two of the people, it's helped us
Speaker 1: be closer with one another in that way. And Waffles
Speaker 1: is the point of connection. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: I told you that my one daughter, probably a lot
Speaker 1: like me, is pretty sensitive to the world, and it
Speaker 1: is if he knows like before I see it, maybe
Speaker 1: even before she feels it will go and just crawl
Speaker 1: up and love on her, because it's like he consents
Speaker 1: that she's going to need comforting. They're really really powerful beings,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I'm so glad you brought it up.
Speaker 1: And I am curious about your dog. You mentioned that
Speaker 1: he can't walk on his back legs and I heard
Speaker 1: you talking to him off Mike and just the sweetest,
Speaker 1: most tender voice. So yeah, i'd I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: from you. Yeah, it's beansy, it's a girl. She's an
Speaker 1: old Boston Terrier, and I think we are probably within
Speaker 1: a few weeks of her time her time coming. So sorry, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's tough talk about silliness and joy. I mean, she
Speaker 1: is just a clown and she has been a clown
Speaker 1: for thirteen years. But yeah, she's got a degenerative disorder
Speaker 1: in her back legs and they've just been you know,
Speaker 1: slowly failing and failing and she's just not doing good.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a little bit sad. But you know,
Speaker 1: the thing with a dog I have found is there's
Speaker 1: a simplicity to a relationship with a dog, right, the
Speaker 1: simplicity of love, the simplicity of joy, and even when
Speaker 1: they go, there's a simplicity of grief. Yeah. Interesting. And
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is like I had two
Speaker 1: pre vious dogs in my adult life and they both passed,
Speaker 1: and they passed within like nine months of each other.
Speaker 1: And the second one, Ralph, went early. He went from cancer,
Speaker 1: you know, And there was a part of me that
Speaker 1: started to go like, what's not fair? You know, I
Speaker 1: just lost Sadie and Ralph's young and but I just realized, like, well,
Speaker 1: animals get sick, they get old, they passed, you know.
Speaker 1: So I didn't have a quarrel with the universe. And
Speaker 1: by not having a quarrel with the universe over it,
Speaker 1: I was able just to fully grieve it. It was
Speaker 1: just this absolutely clean, searing, extraordinarily painful and powerful grief.
Speaker 1: But it just felt so simple and elemental. I would
Speaker 1: only hurt that much because I had loved something that much,
Speaker 1: you know, Like what a gift to have had something
Speaker 1: that meant that much to me for that long, Like
Speaker 1: what a gift. And again this isn't to minimize the grief.
Speaker 1: I felt, all the grief, but in it I recognized
Speaker 1: a great love. So there was something least spiritual in
Speaker 1: that to me in the way that I use the
Speaker 1: word spiritual, not otherworldly, but deeply meaningful. And so with Beans,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm, you know, same sort of thing, like
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm carrying a high degree of weight
Speaker 1: around it. Um just sadness. But she's had a wonderful,
Speaker 1: good long life and we've been very happy, and so
Speaker 1: we'll see her off in a beautiful way. Thank you
Speaker 1: for sharing that. And I'm so happy that she brought
Speaker 1: you the joy and that the love that she did.
Speaker 1: And I think that's so beautifully put about, you know,
Speaker 1: the brave act of loving when we know it's we're
Speaker 1: going to experience the loss, and how clean and simple
Speaker 1: and heartbreaking that losses. That really made a lot of
Speaker 1: sense to me. So I hope you get to soak
Speaker 1: up a lot of precious moments in these next weeks
Speaker 1: or months with her. Yeah, and I'm glad I got
Speaker 1: to talk about it and give her on air honor
Speaker 1: a shout out. Ye tell Waffles not to forget me.
Speaker 1: I know now I feel like an asshole. You're passing
Speaker 1: away and I'm talking about Waffles romping with Beyonce comparative suffering.
Speaker 1: No I am, I'm joyful for waffles. I am joyful
Speaker 1: for waffles, and I hope he doesn't forget you and
Speaker 1: he's famous, that's all. Yes, Yes, well, I'm glad we
Speaker 1: got to talk about the power of you know, dogs
Speaker 1: and animals in our lives because I think it's really
Speaker 1: really impactful. Well, Kimmy, thank you so much. This has
Speaker 1: been really fun. I knew from the first moment that
Speaker 1: you and I connected that this was going to be
Speaker 1: a great conversation into my ears at your husband. Yes,
Speaker 1: I feel the same way. I'm a big fan of
Speaker 1: your show and your work, and I hope everyone listening
Speaker 1: will discover it if they have not already. And right
Speaker 1: back at you. Okay, take care, Okay, bye bye. If
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