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Speaker 1: Growing up, my sister Charlene never missed an episode of

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Speaker 1: Perry Mason or The Rookies or Hawaii five O. She

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Speaker 1: equally loved all the medical shows. I, of course, was

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Speaker 1: only interested in watching the first half with her, but

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Speaker 1: she loved emergency and anything dealing with hospitals in any

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Speaker 1: way of helping people.

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Speaker 2: That was just her.

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Speaker 1: So today she's a Level one trauma nurse that loves

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Speaker 1: helping us at the Cold Case Institute own real unsolved homicides.

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Speaker 1: So today she gets to live what she was so

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Speaker 1: fascinated about as a kid, and it's awesome to be

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Speaker 1: able to work with her today. We have the salute

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Speaker 1: honor of having somebody with us that shows what can

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Speaker 1: happen when two different worlds collide. Honey, we have Detective

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Speaker 1: Jason White with us.

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Speaker 2: You know him.

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Speaker 1: You know him from the first forty eight, Detective Jason

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Speaker 1: White with the Tulsa PD. He's got twenty five years

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Speaker 1: of street crimes, undercover work, narcotics, a school resource officer,

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Speaker 1: a crime scene detective, a hostage negotiator. When I tell y'all,

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Speaker 1: he has virtually done it all he has, including if

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Speaker 1: he wasn't busy enough, he has started what he calls

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Speaker 1: a radio show called Into the Fire, and it is

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Speaker 1: so good. He had a buddy of mine own and

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Speaker 1: I could have listened to that all night long. When

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Speaker 1: I watched him the first time on the first forty eight,

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Speaker 1: I saw a genuine, level headed, authentic detective that had

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Speaker 1: just the right amount of street smarts, training and common

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Speaker 1: sense with a pretty good dose of humor on top

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Speaker 1: of a crazy solid work ethic. Welcome to Zone seven, detective.

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Speaker 1: I have been looking so forward to getting you on

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Speaker 1: this thing. I can't even tell you. And we've got

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Speaker 1: so much to talk about because you have many gifts,

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Speaker 1: and the first one is, just like Charlene, two of

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Speaker 1: your worlds collided because you started in the medical field,

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Speaker 1: did you not?

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Speaker 3: I did? I did. I love that intro, by the way,

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Speaker 3: so thank you for all of that, and I did.

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Speaker 3: I started out at Baptist Burn Center in Oklahoma City,

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Speaker 3: and so a month out of high school, I was

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Speaker 3: in there in the tank room and my job was

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Speaker 3: to debreed the burn patients and do burn dressing changes

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Speaker 3: on them, and probably the youngest person to ever work

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Speaker 3: in that burn center ever, and I ended up staying

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Speaker 3: there for six years. But along with that, I actually

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Speaker 3: went on to surgery and I worked as a scrubtech.

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Speaker 3: At started out on a surgery team that was eyes, ears, nose, throat, plastics, NEUROW,

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Speaker 3: but I really specialized primarily in brains, backs, in reconstructive

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Speaker 3: burn surgeries. And then I went on from there to

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Speaker 3: another hospital where I worked on an open heart team.

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Speaker 3: So I had a lot of experience, had ten years

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Speaker 3: of medical experience before I got back on track to

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Speaker 3: work in the law enforcement world with the goal to

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Speaker 3: become homicide one day.

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Speaker 1: You know, I tell rookies all the time, your advocation

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Speaker 1: and your vocation can both assist you hobbies.

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Speaker 2: Other interest other careers are vital.

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Speaker 1: I think when you're looking at a totality of a

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Speaker 1: crime scene, especially a cold case. So you went medical, PD,

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Speaker 1: detective to the first forty eight that's quite a quick

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Speaker 1: version of your world. But I want to talk right

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Speaker 1: this second now. I've been extremely lucky, and I tell

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Speaker 1: young people do not discount being lucky. You know, you train,

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Speaker 1: you get that education, you show up and you do

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Speaker 1: the best you can every day. But every now and

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Speaker 1: then you're going to have something happen to you that

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Speaker 1: you did not deserve and you just be grateful. So

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you one but one of the first things

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Speaker 1: that ever happened to me when I was assigned to

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Speaker 1: the Major Case Division, the prosecutor that was assigned to

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Speaker 1: that division was a Nancy Grace. Yeah, so I mean,

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Speaker 1: right off the bat, I'm working with a bulldog. I'm

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Speaker 1: working with somebody that's at the top of their game.

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Speaker 1: And as you know far as it went at that time,

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Speaker 1: i mean, she was the golden child. So I learned

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Speaker 1: an awful lot from her. And then I got to

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Speaker 1: work with people like Jim Birch and you know, Holly

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Speaker 1: Hughes and all these other folks that have gone on

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Speaker 1: and had stellar careers. So you know, that ripple effect

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Speaker 1: is good sometimes. Let's talk about twenty fourteen, when your

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Speaker 1: world changed a little bit and all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: they come to you and they're like, hey, we're going

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Speaker 1: to put you on TV.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I've been a fan of this show

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Speaker 3: since it's been on TV. I mean it started out

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and four. I'd kind of heard I

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Speaker 3: joined our unit in two thousand and nine, but when

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Speaker 3: the first forty eight came on TV for the very

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Speaker 3: first time in two thousand and four. I mean I

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Speaker 3: can remember sitting in front of the TV watching it,

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Speaker 3: and I was an absolute fan from the gate. And

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Speaker 3: so when I had heard that they were kind of

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Speaker 3: considering coming to our city. I had heard about that

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Speaker 3: probably in two thousand and probably around twenty ten or eleven,

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Speaker 3: there had been some mentions of it, but I think

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Speaker 3: at that time they were still under a contract with

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Speaker 3: another show that was kind of short lived. It was

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Speaker 3: called The Interrogators, and somebody with that show who actually

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Speaker 3: went on to go to the first forty eight she

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Speaker 3: actually uh continue to think about Tulsa and one of

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Speaker 3: the things that interested her and it really interests them

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Speaker 3: about the various cities that they have on TV, is

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Speaker 3: they want to they want to go to a city

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Speaker 3: that actually solves their cases. I mean, that's that's going

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Speaker 3: to be one of the first things is they want to.

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Speaker 3: They want it's not just getting access to a place,

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Speaker 3: they want a place that's actually going to solve their

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Speaker 3: cases and and uh, et cetera. So when we finally

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Speaker 3: heard about it that it was going to happen, we

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Speaker 3: had a meeting and it was it was roughly I

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Speaker 3: know that we had a meeting roughly with some of

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Speaker 3: the execs from It's actually IV just to let people

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Speaker 3: know it's I know everybody thinks, oh, it's A and E.

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Speaker 3: Well it is A and E. But the production crew

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Speaker 3: is via ITV and they basically are the ones that

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Speaker 3: do everything. They do everything from filming, editing, everything like that.

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Speaker 3: They send everything in there, then they put the episode

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Speaker 3: together and then the episode ultimately is going to end

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Speaker 3: up getting watched by the execsit A and E. And

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Speaker 3: then once they've approved of it, then it comes back

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Speaker 3: to us and we actually sit there and we get

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Speaker 3: to watch the episode. So they told us all about that,

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Speaker 3: and I remember them telling us how probably the number

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Speaker 3: one reason for having a show like that in any city

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Speaker 3: is for recruitment, and it really kind of puts that

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Speaker 3: city on the map. And that's and that's what they

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Speaker 3: said that you know you are going to be recognized.

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Speaker 3: It likely is if you the longer you're on there.

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Speaker 3: Of course, it's just kind of a it's one of

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Speaker 3: the it's one of the cool things. I think. I

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Speaker 3: think it's kind of fun. They started filming, and actually

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Speaker 3: my case was the very first case to actually get

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Speaker 3: started filming on so it was You're used to being

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Speaker 3: in a patrol car by yourself or with the guy

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Speaker 3: that you're running with on a case, and now you

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Speaker 3: have a third person in the car with you, and

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Speaker 3: they're basically telling you to stop, you know, hang on

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Speaker 3: a minute. And and as I've said many other times,

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Speaker 3: I've told people, it was a little bit unnerving at

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Speaker 3: first when you're you're basically doing interviews and stuff. First

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Speaker 3: of all, my case that I had was just a

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Speaker 3: miserable case. It was I knew it was going to

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Speaker 3: be difficult. I knew that people were going to lie

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Speaker 3: to me, which it was absolutely that. And then when

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Speaker 3: I would come out of these interviews and stuff, I

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Speaker 3: remember them having a camera in my face and they're

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Speaker 3: just like, what are your thoughts right now? What are

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Speaker 3: you going to do next? And I was just like,

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Speaker 3: You're going to have to give me a minute, yes please,

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Speaker 3: I've got to digest what's going on here. And so

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Speaker 3: it took a little bit of an adjustment. But once

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Speaker 3: once you get used to that and you get used

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Speaker 3: to the camera people. And we kind of put our

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Speaker 3: foot down early on. The one request that we had

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Speaker 3: was that we didn't want to have a bunch of

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Speaker 3: random people just rolling through here all the time. We

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Speaker 3: wanted to have some continuity with the camera people, and

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Speaker 3: they've you know, we've had probably twenty five camera people

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Speaker 3: that have rolled through and but but we have the

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Speaker 3: core group of like four or five that are your

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Speaker 3: general you know, the usuals. And that's good because they've

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Speaker 3: become part of the family. I mean, really absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask about that. I think it's

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Speaker 1: like body cam. I'm all for it. You can follow

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Speaker 1: me with a drone, honey, I am all about it.

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Speaker 2: And for me, you've got a community.

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Speaker 1: They don't have to wonder what you're doing, they don't

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Speaker 1: have to wonder how you're doing it. They don't have

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Speaker 1: to wonder how somebody was treated. It's right there, it's

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Speaker 1: on TV. How you work the cases. And to me,

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Speaker 1: when you mentioned the recruiting tool, yes, but to me would.

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Speaker 2: Also it should reduce crime.

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Speaker 1: And to me, it would help you the minute you

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Speaker 1: walk into an interrogation room and I already know you,

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Speaker 1: that's a different ballgame.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you a quick story. I love this story.

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Speaker 3: There was I was up for the next murder, and

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Speaker 3: there was a family. It was a husband, wife and

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Speaker 3: they were both probably in their mid fifties, and you

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Speaker 3: could tell they'd lived a hard life, I mean. And

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Speaker 3: then they brought their they had their daughter with him

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Speaker 3: and she he's eighteen. And based on the conversation, I

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Speaker 3: happen to be up for the next murder, and based

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Speaker 3: on the conversation that had been going on to one

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Speaker 3: of my supervisors, they come and got me and they said, hey,

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Speaker 3: you're up for the next murder, you should probably come

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Speaker 3: out here and talk to these people. And so I

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Speaker 3: went out there and the guy was out in the

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Speaker 3: waiting room that the father, the whole family was there,

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Speaker 3: and the father immediately was like, oh my gosh, it's

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Speaker 3: so good to meet you. And you know, we get

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Speaker 3: that from time to time. Literally, we have people that

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Speaker 3: fly into Tulsa sometimes to meet us. It's crazy, I know,

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Speaker 3: but it's We're like a tourist attraction to some extent.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, so I was like, hey, appreciate it. You know,

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Speaker 3: that's great, thanks for coming down here, et cetera. And

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Speaker 3: he goes, listen, I got to tell you something, he goes.

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Speaker 3: I was, I've spent over half of my life in prison,

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Speaker 3: and I was raised to hate the cops. Okay, And

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you right now, I am not a huge

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Speaker 3: cop fan, but you guys are are amazing. You guys.

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Speaker 3: You treat everybody with respect, regardless if they're the bad

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Speaker 3: guy or the families. You just treat people right. And

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Speaker 3: he goes, I really really appreciate that, and he goes.

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Speaker 3: The reason why I came down here is because my

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Speaker 3: daughter witnessed a murder yesterday. And it didn't happen in Tulsa.

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Speaker 3: She can't remember where it happened, but it happens somewhere

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Speaker 3: in northeast Oklahoma, which is a big place. And she goes,

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Speaker 3: she goes, He goes, she's going to tell you all

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Speaker 3: about it. And I brought her here to you guys

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Speaker 3: because I trust you guys, because from what I've seen.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, well, do you mind if I

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Speaker 3: go back and take and talk to her. And he goes, yeah,

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Speaker 3: just bring her home when you're done. And that was that,

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Speaker 3: and that right there. I've tried to tell other cities

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Speaker 3: when a couple of times I've talked to other cities

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Speaker 3: that were thinking about being a part of this, and

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Speaker 3: I've told him I'm like, listen, it is priceless, priceless

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Speaker 3: to be a part of that show, and it's just

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Speaker 3: really it opens up so many more doors. And I

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Speaker 3: know that there's probably some cities that they're a little

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Speaker 3: bit concerned with the I think they're concerned with getting

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Speaker 3: caught up doing something stupid or hey, you're already if

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Speaker 3: you don't do anything stupid. I mean, they're the benefits

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Speaker 3: are far. They're just huge, and I can't tell you

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Speaker 3: how much it's been just really a blessing for us.

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Speaker 3: We've been on there longer where we're coming up on

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Speaker 3: the longest time that they've had a city there. I

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Speaker 3: know that we've had the most episodes that have aired

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Speaker 3: from on that program, and that's been probably right now,

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Speaker 3: it's probably close to one twenty as far as episode

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Speaker 3: So we've been on there almost ten years, and there's

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Speaker 3: no end in sight. There's no real reason. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we're we're still good with it, and it'll be a

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Speaker 3: little weird when one day it's gonna come to an

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Speaker 3: end for us, but it'll be weird when they finally

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Speaker 3: do leave. And that's what I was talking to Summer

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Speaker 3: about it. I was like, what was that like when

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Speaker 3: Summer bent from Atlanta. I was like, what was Oh,

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Speaker 3: she's my buddy too, I you know, like I told her,

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Speaker 3: I do know some of the detectives in the other cities.

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Speaker 3: I'm fans of their work. I mean there's been times

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Speaker 3: when I watched it episode and I thought of something

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Speaker 3: and I've called him or I've messaged them and told him, Hey,

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Speaker 3: have you guys thought of this or that? And then

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Speaker 3: there's been other times where I've just messaged him and said, hey,

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Speaker 3: I tell that detective. I did it once for they

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Speaker 3: have Tracy Lewis, who was who did her first case

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Speaker 3: on the first forty eight there in Atlanta, and I

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Speaker 3: had messaged one of the detectives and said, hey, let

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Speaker 3: her know that she just did an incredible job. And

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Speaker 3: I was just super proud of her and things like that. So,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, it's been it's been really

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Speaker 3: a great thing for us. I can't say anything negative

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Speaker 3: about it whatsoever. Plus it's kind of fun to want,

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Speaker 3: you know, have people that want to come up and

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Speaker 3: take a selfie with you. I mean with a cop.

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Speaker 3: That's that's almost unheard of, you know, So that's that's

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Speaker 3: always fun for me.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, there was one episode where the lead detective he

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Speaker 1: was great, he was outstanding. But he was asking this

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Speaker 1: witness who sells drugs over there? And she was like,

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Speaker 1: nobody sells RU rugs over there. And she was adamant,

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Speaker 1: nobody is selling drugs over there. And you're sitting in

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Speaker 1: the chair behind and you're just easy, you're not aggressive,

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Speaker 1: you're not mad, you're not even saying nothing.

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Speaker 2: And all of a sudden you just said to her,

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Speaker 2: who's dropping off over there? And she looks right at

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Speaker 2: you and says, KP.

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Speaker 3: Yep, yep.

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Speaker 2: It was brilliant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well sometimes I look really good on there. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: sometimes we'll take it. Sometimes, yeah, well, I'll tell you

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Speaker 3: what that that's one of our favorite things to do.

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Speaker 3: There's everybody in our unit as a homicide detective, I

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Speaker 3: think that our number one ability as you know, what's

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Speaker 3: what's our secret? You know, we we solve. Since twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 3: we've had roughly five hundred and fifty five homicides in

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Speaker 3: the city of Tulsa, and I think we have twenty

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Speaker 3: eight that are open. So we we we and we

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Speaker 3: can't do that without the community. I mean, there's a

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Speaker 3: few things that are the ingredients to our success. Number

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Speaker 3: one for really any police officer period. If you want

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Speaker 3: to know what our the number one most important skill

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Speaker 3: for a police officer is or a detective, it is

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Speaker 3: easily your ability to communicate with people. If you can't

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Speaker 3: do that, you're in big trouble. I mean, it's more

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Speaker 3: important than shooting, driving, self defense, all that stuff. All

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Speaker 3: that stuff's important, but you are talking to people and

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Speaker 3: listening every single day. So therefore that's probably one of

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Speaker 3: the biggest things there is with policing. And the other

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Speaker 3: thing is one of the reasons that we're so successful too,

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Speaker 3: is that we work as a team, and teamwork makes

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Speaker 3: the dream work. And if you're one of those units

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Speaker 3: that used to drive me crazy when I would watch

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Speaker 3: not to throw any other city, I won't even mention

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Speaker 3: the city's name, but when I was watching, when I

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Speaker 3: would watch another city and I would see them have

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Speaker 3: a different shift, like a night shift, and then they

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Speaker 3: would hand it off to the day shift crew when

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Speaker 3: they came in, I I just it just doesn't you

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Speaker 3: don't have that ownership, and now you're it's almost discombobulated

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Speaker 3: when you get it, and it makes it much more

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Speaker 3: difficult to solve the case. In my opinion, so we

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Speaker 3: would we would just work really well as a team.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing is too, is that the city

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Speaker 3: of Tulsa is so used to us solving these cases.

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Speaker 3: Is they expect it, you know, so so really they

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Speaker 3: don't care. We don't really get hounded about what this

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Speaker 3: is costing. They they just want the cases solved. So

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Speaker 3: we don't get really restricted as far as working and

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Speaker 3: having over time. It's just part of the deal. And

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Speaker 3: they know it. You know, you go to New Orleans,

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Speaker 3: you know, they have really strict overtime issues there. And

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Speaker 3: and I mean it's just it's hard enough solving these

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Speaker 3: cases when you're when you're just hammering it and going

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Speaker 3: after these cases, but when you're restricted by how when

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Speaker 3: you can be working and this and that. That's one

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Speaker 3: of the reasons that I think that a lot of

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Speaker 3: a lot of these cities are probably not as successful

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Speaker 3: as they could be. All Right. The other reason is too,

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Speaker 3: is it's the other thing that's really big is the

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Speaker 3: fact that we get along well with the community for

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Speaker 3: the most part. You know, we've got a good relationship

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Speaker 3: as a police department with the community. And it hasn't

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Speaker 3: always been that way, but it's something that we have

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Speaker 3: worked on for many, many years. And I think we

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Speaker 3: just conduct ourselves pretty professionally within the community. And I mean,

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying we don't still have people that hate

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Speaker 3: that pl It doesn't matter what you do, they're gonna

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Speaker 3: hate you. But for the most part, that's how we

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Speaker 3: handle it. And it's not some secret ingredient that we're

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Speaker 3: just And we do have other cities that we'll call us,

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Speaker 3: like Boston, and there's been other major cities that have

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Speaker 3: called us to see what in the heck we're doing

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Speaker 3: here and why are we so successful? And it's really

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Speaker 3: the teamwork. It's getting out from behind your desk, knocking

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Speaker 3: on doors, finding video. I cann't tell you how many

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Speaker 3: cases I've came across that had we waited one more day,

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Speaker 3: we would have missed out on that video that actually

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Speaker 3: brought the case together. You know, things like that. You've

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Speaker 3: got to get out there and talk to people. And

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Speaker 3: that's the key.

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Speaker 1: You got to get out there. You got to get

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Speaker 1: out there, you got to get in the street. And

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Speaker 1: it ain't a nine to five. I can't agree with

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Speaker 1: you more.

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Speaker 3: No, it's not. It's and and and I'll tell you.

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Speaker 3: Something else too is for me, it really and I

350
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Speaker 3: like talking about this too, is the fact that the

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Speaker 3: people that are selected for homicide and really for any

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Speaker 3: any specialty unit for that matter. It's not like we

353
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Speaker 3: were something We're up on this pedestal, that were some

354
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,680
Speaker 3: godlike creatures on the department. But but here's the deal.

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Speaker 3: It's like, you need to pick the right people for

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Speaker 3: the unit. And I don't care what people look like

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Speaker 3: on paper. I care about how well that individual is

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Speaker 3: going to work as a team player and how trainable

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Speaker 3: they are. They've got to be trainable. I'm not interested

360
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Speaker 3: in somebody coming to our unit that's going to be yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I got it. Yeah yeah, I know. I'm not I'm

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Speaker 3: not gonna I'm not gonna mesh well with that at all.

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Speaker 3: And they have to be trainable. And that's one of

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Speaker 3: the things when I first came into that unit. I

365
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Speaker 3: don't really have any issue talking about it now because

366
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Speaker 3: I've been doing this so long. I really don't care

367
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Speaker 3: what anybody thinks. But the fact of the matter is

368
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Speaker 3: is when I came into the unit, I think that

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Speaker 3: they could have done a much better job with taking

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Speaker 3: me under their wing and training me and showing me

371
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Speaker 3: the ropes. Okay, And I think that now we do

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Speaker 3: that we set people up for success now as opposed

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Speaker 3: to failure. Like back when I first got in here,

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Speaker 3: I literally thought that that people wanted to see me fail,

375
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Speaker 3: you know, And it was almost as if they wanted

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Speaker 3: to look better, you know, And you just can't do that.

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Speaker 3: That's crazy. So anyway, the stakes are too high when

378
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Speaker 3: you're talking about these type of cases, because if you

379
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Speaker 3: don't get it right and you don't get this individual

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Speaker 3: in custody, then they could potentially go out and kill

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Speaker 3: somebody else. And so it could very easily happen.

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Speaker 1: Because again, the way y'all work, if you've got ten

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Speaker 1: detectives and y'all rotate, who catches the next one that lead?

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Speaker 2: This is what I love for people to see.

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Speaker 1: You may be the lead detective tonight, but the next

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Speaker 1: homicide that somebody catches, you may be doing the canvas.

387
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 1: You may be collecting something off the street. You may

388
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 1: be going down the road and interviewing somebody that you

389
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Speaker 1: know as a confidential informant.

390
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Speaker 2: So your job is fluid, so it takes the ego

391
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Speaker 2: out of it. You don't have to be in charge

392
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 2: every single time, but you can be so helpful.

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Speaker 1: Like I just was talking to my daughter and Caitlin Clark,

394
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Speaker 1: who just broke the record for women's basketball NCAA. She's phenomenal.

395
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Speaker 1: I mean, she has scored over three thousand points. I

396
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: think unbelievable. But I told my daughter watch the people

397
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Speaker 1: that passed to her. She didn't do it by herself.

398
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Speaker 1: She didn't and the person that passes to her is

399
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Speaker 1: just as important. Everybody I've ever worked with, whatever team

400
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Speaker 1: I ever put together, whatever task force I ever put together,

401
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 1: I have had the same mantra. I want to be

402
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Speaker 1: the dumbest person in the room, because if I'm not,

403
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Speaker 1: we have limitations, you understand. And I don't want this

404
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: team to have limitations. I don't want this case to

405
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,880
Speaker 1: have limitations. So I have no problem saying this prosecutor

406
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: or this detective, or this crime scene person, or my

407
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: husband or my two children are smarter than me. That

408
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 1: is the goal, baby, that's the point, no doubt, no doubt.

409
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Speaker 2: But let me tell you how I love to watch

410
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Speaker 2: you work.

411
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Speaker 3: This is exactly what I like hearing about how great

412
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Speaker 3: I am.

413
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Speaker 1: Now, Yes, and I hope your wife can hear me

414
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Speaker 1: because she needs to recognize I don't know.

415
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Speaker 3: That she necessarily agrees with everything.

416
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Speaker 1: Listen, every time somebody says, oh, Mac, I could listen

417
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Speaker 1: to you talk all night. I'll screenshot it and send

418
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Speaker 1: it to my husband. He's like, yeah, they're new, you know,

419
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 1: like they don't know. But honestly, here's the deal that

420
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: I and again did we've never met. I know you

421
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 1: from TV, so like everybody else, I feel like I

422
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: know you.

423
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Speaker 2: But here's what I see.

424
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Speaker 1: As soon as you leave the crime scene and you

425
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 1: get back in your patrol car and you're headed back

426
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 1: to the station, you're on the phone.

427
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 2: You are not wasting any time. You are calling people.

428
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: You're saying, hey, don't you have a ci in that

429
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 1: same neighborhood. Didn't you arrest somebody a month ago in

430
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Speaker 1: that neighborhood. Let's get these people out, Let's shake these trees.

431
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Speaker 2: Honey.

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Speaker 1: You will pull over on the side of the road

433
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: to talk to people. I've seen you say hey, come

434
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 1: here and bring somebody over.

435
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 2: To your car.

436
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: You have stopped eating lunch, and I think that is

437
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: so critical for young people to watch this because again,

438
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 1: not only is it not nine to five, it is

439
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 1: not even in that eight hours, you may not get

440
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: a break.

441
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I'll tell you something that, Like I said,

442
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 3: I joined the unit in two thousand and nine, and

443
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 3: I can remember vividly a homicide that I went to

444
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 3: in October of twenty and fourteen, and it was a

445
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 3: case where this gangster and it's still unsolved to this day,

446
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: but he got just lit up. He got shot close

447
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 3: to twenty times as he sat in the front seat

448
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 3: of his car. And I remember that case and like

449
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 3: I said, it's still open to this day. And he

450
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 3: was a he was a big time og in the

451
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 3: Hoover crips. And I remember after that case, I tell

452
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 3: I told myself, I said, that's it. I'm not having

453
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 3: another open case period. It's not going to happen again.

454
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 3: And the couple of things that I did is number one.

455
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 3: I stopped I stopped having a something in my eye.

456
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 3: I stopped having a negative attitude about a case when

457
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 3: I started hearing the details about it, I would I

458
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: never really wanted to hear all the ins and outs

459
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: of it where I'm starting to get this in my mind,

460
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 3: we're never going to solve this case. I didn't want

461
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 3: that as part of insight of my brain. I So

462
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 3: what I did is I had to just say, I'm

463
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 3: going to remain positive. I'm going to have the mindset

464
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 3: that we are going to solve this case. Period, it's

465
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 3: going to happen. And because of that attitude change that

466
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 3: I because I think I ran across a couple of

467
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,719
Speaker 3: cases that were just horrible, you know, horrible as far

468
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: as nobody talking. It was just miserable. And and I

469
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 3: didn't have an unsolved case, or I didn't have an

470
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 3: unsolved case I think for probably six years after that.

471
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 3: Uh so, which is a lot of luck sprinkled in

472
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 3: there too, mac. You know, people say there's no such

473
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: thing as luck. Yes there is, and it does happen.

474
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: And I got lucky a few times. But I changed

475
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 3: with the way I was thinking about this and I

476
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 3: and I would just try to continually be positive in

477
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: my thinking and positive moving moving the ball forward, always

478
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 3: trying to move that ball forward, and and in doing so,

479
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,719
Speaker 3: that's really helped. Now I've had a few, I've had

480
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 3: a few open sins, but but I still live by

481
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 3: that and I try to I try to remain positive,

482
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: and I try to tell that and instill that in

483
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 3: those that will listen to me in the office. Now,

484
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 3: I've been in there the second longest actually right now.

485
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,239
Speaker 3: Kind of a fun fact is that I've worked the

486
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 3: third most homicides in the city of Tulsa's history, and

487
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 3: so only there's only three of us that have actually

488
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: been assigned as the lead detective in Tulsa for over

489
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 3: one hundred murders. And I'm on, I'm number three on

490
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: that list, and number one's already retired. So I will

491
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 3: one day, I will fall I'll be the number one guy.

492
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 3: Eventually the number two guy. He's still probably going to

493
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: stick around for another year or so, but but I

494
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 3: will eventually pass him, and I will, and I don't

495
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 3: think that's going to happen. I don't think it'll ever

496
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 3: be broken. The reason why I say that is because

497
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 3: I think that the generation of today of detectives, they

498
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 3: seem to move on a lot quicker. They don't hang

499
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 3: out in these in these positions as long. Maybe they're smarter,

500
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: maybe they realized that, you know, they don't want the

501
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 3: life sucked out of them over the courts of fifty

502
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 3: twenty years of doing this. But you know, you have

503
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 3: cops of today that they go from one department to

504
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: another one. You know that that was unheard of back

505
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 3: in the day.

506
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to make one thing clear for

507
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: everybody listening. The clear rate, for y'all is about ninety

508
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: six percent. Now, that is unheard of when nationally you're

509
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: looking at sixty two maybe somewhere in there. And I

510
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: heard you say something that I thought was so fantastic

511
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: that I'm going to quote you. You said, and I quote,

512
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in being ninety seven percent sure. I

513
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: want to be one hundred percent sure. So when you've

514
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: got somebody that dedicated, listen to me, y'all, this is

515
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: not for him about well, I'm just going to go

516
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: ahead and arrest this guy for it so I can

517
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: get this off my sheet.

518
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: And it's close enough. No, he's not about that.

519
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: So when you're looking at that ninety six percent, it's

520
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: a solid number.

521
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 3: No, it is. I mean, we don't lose cases in court.

522
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: I mean it happens very very rarely. I've never lost one.

523
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 3: I've never lost a murder trial. Now, a lot of

524
00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 3: that has to do with the fact that we have

525
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 3: a tremendous relationship not only with the community, but we've

526
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,959
Speaker 3: got a tremendous relationship with the District Attorney's office, and

527
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: not just you know, we covered Tulsa, covers like three

528
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 3: different counties or parts of three different counties, the main

529
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 3: one being Tulsa County obviously, but we do touch a

530
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 3: couple of other counties and we have we have an

531
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: exceptional relationship with the das in those communities too. So

532
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: and the thing that's kind of bizarre about us, and

533
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know this or not, Mac,

534
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 3: but I'll mention it is that here in Tulsa, there

535
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: was a Supreme Court ruling that happened probably it's probably

536
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 3: four or five years now, and that happened, and it

537
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 3: basically made eastern Oklahoma, the eastern half of the state

538
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 3: technically almost like Indian Nation again. And what it means

539
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 3: is that originally it was if the victim or the

540
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 3: suspect was Indian, then it would fall under the jurisdiction

541
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 3: of the US Attorney's Office, which means that for a murder,

542
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 3: customarily it would be the FBI that would work those cases. Well,

543
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 3: there's no way in the world that the FBI was

544
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 3: going to It just wasn't going to happen. They it's

545
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 3: too much. It's too much for them to have taken on.

546
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 3: So what they did is that everybody that you see

547
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: from our city and from a lot of there's a

548
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 3: lot of cops throughout the eastern part of the state.

549
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 3: We all are task force officers with the FBI, were

550
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 3: task force officers with the US. Marshals were task force officers,

551
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 3: were basically marshals in the Cherokee Nation, the Cherokee Indian Nation,

552
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 3: and also we have law enforcement credentials with the Creek

553
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 3: Nation and some of us have Bureau of Indian Affairs

554
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: credentials also. And it really doesn't make your job any different.

555
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: It just means that you've got a lot of different

556
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 3: jurisdictions that you're dealing with, and it could add a lot,

557
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: you know, if you've ever dealt with the US Attorney's Office,

558
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 3: it adds another layer of complexities. Also, it makes it

559
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 3: a little bit more. You know, you're dealing with a

560
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: thirty six page search warr't for Facebook, as opposed to

561
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: it two page search weren't.

562
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: So that's right, that's the best descriptions I've ever heard.

563
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: But that's the truth.

564
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: Lord, Yes, you know, so we don't have a team

565
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,239
Speaker 3: of FBI guys that are going to show up on

566
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: one of our murders. We basically we just do it.

567
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 3: And so now we have the credentials to where we

568
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: can do that now. But I mean, it's just kind

569
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: of the unique thing that we have to deal with

570
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 3: as well. But I got to say this because I

571
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: want to say something else. You know, one of the

572
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: things that I love about our police department, and I

573
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 3: sent you that homicide booklet, and I really what that is,

574
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 3: and what I sent to her was a family booklet,

575
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 3: and it's an idea that I came up with. And

576
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: the idea was I wanted to you know, when you

577
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 3: give a death notification, the people people would probably retain

578
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 3: roughly ten percent of what you're telling them. I mean,

579
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 3: it's the worst moment of their life, and you're giving

580
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,239
Speaker 3: them a lot of information about what the where their

581
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: loved one is going to be going, what happened, et cetera,

582
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 3: et cetera, and and so you're trying to explain this

583
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: stuff to them, and I got, really, I don't mind

584
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 3: getting phone calls from the family and stuff, but I

585
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 3: but to tell you the truth, it was just so

586
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 3: distracting at times that I was like, we got to

587
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 3: do something better here. So I came up with this idea.

588
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: And I was telling my former partner, we don't really

589
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: have partners, but a guy that I worked with a lot,

590
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: the guy that Rodney Leatherman, he's actually my co host

591
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 3: on my show, and I told him, I said, listen,

592
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 3: this is what I want to do. There were so

593
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 3: many good ideas that we would come up with our

594
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: in the car, you know, and one of my ideas

595
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 3: was is I wanted to come up with this idea

596
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 3: of some booklet we could literally hand the family. And

597
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: and so he's one of those type of people. Bless

598
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 3: him for this, but he's he's one of those type

599
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: of people that he's like, well, let's just just quit

600
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: talking about it, let's do it. And so with him

601
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 3: sitting down, and what we did is we just came

602
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 3: up with this booklet. And I think when you see

603
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 3: it and you'll look through that, steal that idea, Cheryl,

604
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: feel free to share it with everybody.

605
00:30:58,680 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: Listen.

606
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: I already I didn't just look at it. I read

607
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: it and here's what jumped out at me. And I

608
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: appreciate you saying go ahead and steal it. Because I'm

609
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: going to anyway. But what you did in the very beginning,

610
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: you even told them the statistics. You told them the

611
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: report number, you told them the detective's name. You gave

612
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: them all the information about victim's assistant. You told them

613
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: about financial things that they could apply for. You told

614
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: them what vine was. You went through the whole thing

615
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: about what the court hearing is going to be like,

616
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: and what's going to happen there, what to do about

617
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: trying to clean up the crime scene. I mean, honey,

618
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: you told them every single thing, including money for a

619
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: reward from crime stoppers. You didn't leave anything out.

620
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, how about how about grief counseling.

621
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: Coat counseling. It's in there.

622
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: Business stuff that people need to know and then and

623
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: that's right. And so when you're when you when you

624
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 3: show up at their house, you could very easily give

625
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: them a business card. And that business card is going

626
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 3: to disappear. They're going to lose it. They're not going

627
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: to lose that booklet. And so I since I've been

628
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: fortunate enough to be able to teach throughout the country,

629
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 3: I always take a stack of that I take I

630
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: take a good amount of those with me everywhere I go,

631
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: and since I've been teaching everywhere, they're handing those booklets

632
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: out in Sacramento County, They're handing them out in North Dakota, Michigan, Massachusetts, Florida, Texas,

633
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 3: and I love it. Delaware is another place, and I

634
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 3: love it because, uh, that's what it's about. You know,

635
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: we should be sharing really good ideas. And then the second,

636
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 3: the second thing I wanted to mention too that I

637
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: rarely ever talk about this and I and I and

638
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 3: I wanted to mention it here because I love as

639
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 3: a homicide detective specifically, and really this isn't geared for

640
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 3: homicide exclusively. This is for anybody that it doesn't even

641
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 3: need to be law enforcement. It's whatever career that you're in.

642
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: Don't just do what is the bare minimum. Do try

643
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 3: to be better. I mean, think up innovative ideas, et cetera.

644
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: And one of the things that we did on our

645
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: department is I remember myself and Ronnie were Ronnie Leather

646
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: when we're sitting at a clandestine grave class. And for

647
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 3: your listeners, that is a shallow grave class. It's like,

648
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: you know what, when people kill somebody, they're going to

649
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 3: stick them in a shallow grave. So it's a class

650
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 3: about that. And while we were sitting there, I was like,

651
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 3: you know, this would be really neat to I wonder

652
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 3: if we can get a body, where would we get

653
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: a body at? And so then I came back down

654
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: to reality and I was like, there's no way in

655
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 3: the world we're ever going to have the city of

656
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 3: Tulsa approve us to start a body farm of our own.

657
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: Number one, Where in the heck are we going to

658
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: get a person? You know, that's just not going to happen.

659
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 3: But the closest thing to that is a pig. And

660
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: so we went ahead and did that, and we got

661
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 3: a pig, and we took it out to the range

662
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: and we already had a whole dug and we dug

663
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 3: it two feet deep because that's what most people do.

664
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 3: They did it usually two feet because they're so lazy.

665
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 3: And we just did all this stuff, and then we

666
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: had the range shoot it with whatever they wanted to

667
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: shoot it with, and we even close clothes the pig,

668
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: and we put clothes on this thing and et cetera.

669
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 3: And then we threw it in the hole and then

670
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 3: we monitored it with a with a trail cam, and

671
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 3: we got the city to buy both of those, at

672
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: the pig and the trail cam, and we just studied it,

673
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 3: and nobody was telling us to do this stuff. But

674
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 3: I've always thought for my whole career, I've always thought

675
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 3: you shouldn't, especially in homicide or if you're in crime

676
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 3: scene and you know this and me being a former

677
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: crime scene person, if you're in those positions, you have

678
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: an obligation to continue your education and to continue to

679
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 3: try to do things like that. And if if you're

680
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: just sitting back there and just sitting around doing nothing

681
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 3: and playing on your phone, that's not that you can't

682
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: do that. In those positions, you have an obligation to

683
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 3: continue your learning. So, believe it or not, we actually

684
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: the first forty eight actually filmed. They filmed us exhooming

685
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: that that pig, but you will never see it on

686
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 3: TV because the thing of it is is that people

687
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 3: they can see all kinds of stuff of death and

688
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 3: destruction to the human beings, and that won't bother them.

689
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 3: But you put up an a animal, oh my gosh,

690
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 3: the switchboard would go nuts. People would be complaining. But anyway,

691
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 3: it was a neat experiment and It's something that I

692
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: always try to tell people, Hey, think if you've got

693
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 3: an idea, think up how to do it, and and

694
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 3: and try. And that's how good things happen. And it

695
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 3: was a fun experiment.

696
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: You and I have something else in coming, and that's

697
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: visiting historical crum scenes, whether it's in Cold Blood or

698
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: Manson or Delphi. And I preach all the time, nothing

699
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: takes the place a walk in that scene.

700
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 3: Nothing, nothing, I'll tell you what, just specifically on that.

701
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: I still am constantly watching the Lobyanca House from the

702
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 3: Manson murders and it's it's located at thirty three eleven

703
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: Waverley Driving in Los Filees, which is located in LA

704
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 3: And I'm telling you the moment that thing turns, if

705
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: it ever turns into an airb or a VRBO, I

706
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: am renting that thing for at least one night. I

707
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: don't know that I can fall asleep in that house,

708
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 3: but I am going to rent that house and I'm

709
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 3: going to illumine all it. I'm not telling them I'm

710
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 3: doing this, of course, but I'm going to illumine all

711
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 3: it just to see if it luminesss over fifty years.

712
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: Jason I'm so in. I am so in we will

713
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: have that mother tonight.

714
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 3: Would that not be cool?

715
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: I'm telling it again, Think what you could learn.

716
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: Well, I think it'd be a fun experiment.

717
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: It would be a great experiment because we already know

718
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: that in cold cases they've gotten DNA that was usable

719
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: to develop a profile after fifty years. So let's see

720
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: if we can go find some and see if the

721
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: light up. That would be remarkable.

722
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 3: It would be And I just I'd kind of alluded

723
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: to this or mentioned something about this a little bit

724
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 3: ago where I said something about just the advances in

725
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 3: the world of forensics. You know, in the state of Oklahoma,

726
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 3: by twenty twenty seven, we are mandated that we're going

727
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: to have handheld DNA. And I when I was they

728
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 3: were telling me about this, I'm like, are you kidding me?

729
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: I mean, here I am supposedly and this is the

730
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 3: story I heard, So it may not be completely accurate,

731
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 3: but basically, they're able to scan blood at a scene

732
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: and you could literally go in and compare that to

733
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 3: the guy's DNA sitting in an interview room and see

734
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: if it's a match. I'm just like, remarkable, it is

735
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 3: remarkable and you know when with snapshot, the pair bond, snapshot,

736
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: DNA and and things along that, that line where you

737
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 3: could literally get a person's picture of what they look

738
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 3: like at twenty five years old is fascinating. And then

739
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 3: and then the frenzy genealogy, which is a world that's exploding.

740
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 3: I mean, if it wasn't for that, then that Idaho

741
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: case would still be open to this to this day.

742
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: And and I think that in that case, and even

743
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 3: that that Long Island Killer, I think they probably get

744
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 3: some friends of genealogy on that.

745
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: I would assume, Oh they did, I can guarantee it.

746
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: And you've got groups like authorm that have changed the

747
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: game to where we used to have that you know,

748
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: we had to have fifteen hundred whatever in a sample.

749
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: Now we only have to have four or something insane,

750
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: and they can still develop a profile. I mean, it's

751
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: crazy to me where we are absolutely crazy.

752
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 3: Well, I'm writing that. I'm writing that name down because

753
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 3: I have not heard of that company.

754
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: And it's offer from O th r Am and it's

755
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: doctor David Middleman. Yeah, you need to know them. Yeah,

756
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 1: they're a one stop shop, so they can get your sample,

757
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: they can do the coder's route or the genealogy route,

758
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 1: they are magnificent.

759
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 3: I sometimes wonder. There's been times when I've had a

760
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 3: case where we just didn't get a good profile, and

761
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: I'm like, how in the world how did we not?

762
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 3: I mean, I've had a couple of brutal rape well

763
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 3: one of them was mine, which was a brutal rape

764
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,439
Speaker 3: murder where I know that this person was disorganized, wasn't

765
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: wearing gloves, it was I just know that there had

766
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 3: to have been some DNA transfer and the results that

767
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: we got back were not as good as you would think.

768
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 3: And but you know, you never know what the technology

769
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 3: is going to be in fifteen more years. Can you

770
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: imagine where we're going to be ten years from now

771
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 3: or fifteen years from now? My goodness, I mean, look

772
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: where we've come already, and it's actually exciting to see,

773
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 3: and I'm glad to see that we're getting We're getting

774
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 3: better and better.

775
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, is there any final fault

776
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: that you want to be sure that you say to

777
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: either rookie detectives or rookies period or prosecutors, anything you

778
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: want to say at all.

779
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 3: I think that for the young detectives and stuff. What

780
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 3: I would tell there's two things that I'm going to

781
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 3: mention is number one, and these are things that I

782
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 3: learned from my dad. My dad was a California highway

783
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 3: patrolman and he always I don't think he was really

784
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 3: super excited about the fact that I wanted to get

785
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 3: into law enforcement, but once I did, and what I've

786
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 3: done in my career, he's been he's you know, he's

787
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 3: my biggest fan, easily. But the number one thing is

788
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: he would always tell me is shut your mouth and listen.

789
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 3: And this is the censored version of what he would

790
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: tell me, but basically, just shut your mouth and listen

791
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 3: to people that know what they're talking about. You don't

792
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 3: know what you're talking about, so listen and learn. That's

793
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 3: number one. And then the second piece of advice that

794
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 3: he told me, that's even more important than that, that

795
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 3: I really try to tell everybody no matter where I'm teaching,

796
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 3: whether it be at the academy or wherever, and that

797
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 3: is make sure that your badge is the same size

798
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 3: it was the day they issued it to you, not

799
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: five sizes too big. Meaning treat people right. It doesn't

800
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 3: say anywhere in the rule book that you can't be

801
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 3: nice to people, all right. I'm not advocating back rubs

802
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 3: in the community. That's not me. But I'm telling you,

803
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 3: if you just treat people right, you'd be amazed at

804
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: what you'll get back. And you know, and that's one

805
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,479
Speaker 3: of those things that I would talk to young people about,

806
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 3: just tell them to because you know, you know as

807
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 3: well as I do, MAC that the communication skills of

808
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 3: the people coming into the business today are diminished compared

809
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 3: to you know, I don't think any of those kids

810
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 3: that are that are joining the police academy had a telephone,

811
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: a landline number one, number two. They certainly didn't have

812
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 3: a phone cord that was over one hundred feet long

813
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 3: and your parents yelling at you, going get off the phone.

814
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 3: They just don't communicate like that anymore.

815
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: You know, that's right.

816
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: But you know, we also didn't have a phone in

817
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: our hand at a party. We didn't have a phone

818
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: in our hand. At church, we didn't have a phone

819
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: in our hand at family union. We grew up talking

820
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 1: to people, all kinds of people all the time.

821
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 3: Hey, you can get to the bus stop in the morning,

822
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 3: and what did you do you were talking? Now, you

823
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: watch everybody at a bus stop. It's almost it's almost,

824
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: it's actually disappointing to see, but everybody is not even communicating.

825
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 3: They're sitting there looking at their own phones.

826
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,720
Speaker 1: And they're losing vital time where they could be training,

827
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: literally training for this job.

828
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 3: That's right, So I'll if hopefully the young detective and

829
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 3: I haven't, Like I said, I'm not, I don't, I'm

830
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 3: not all knowing. But those are the things that I

831
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 3: was fortunate enough to be a crisis negotiator, so I

832
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 3: got some enhanced skills as far. I got some additional

833
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 3: training when it comes to communicating, and I think that's

834
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: a big deal. So as a police officer, you know,

835
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 3: you really need to work on your ability to communicate

836
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 3: with people and talk to people and become really really

837
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 3: good at I don't really look at him as an interrogation.

838
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 3: I look at it more it's more of a conversation.

839
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: Really well, you know, you also, in that regard did

840
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: something brilliant and I'm going to sound like a hypocrite,

841
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: so thank you for that, Jason. But you realized at

842
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: a scene that it was going to be easier for

843
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: the person that had taken folks hostage for you to

844
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 1: text him instead of call him. So, even though that

845
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: might not have been your first go to, because you're

846
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: a phone person, you're a great communicator to that person.

847
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: He needed you to text him, and you understood that.

848
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 3: Well, tell you something, Maca. This is I don't know

849
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 3: that I'll ever be able to do this on a murder,

850
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 3: but if it was some case that really was not

851
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 3: going anywhere, I've always wanted to just try this to

852
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 3: where I just do an interview all in texting, just

853
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 3: to see because sometimes you know what I've made some

854
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 3: of these people that you're dealing with there, they're just

855
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 3: there just to see where it got you. But no,

856
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 3: I appreciate that, and that that that by doing that,

857
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 3: that you know, people just don't answer their phone. If

858
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 3: they don't recognize the number, even though it's even though

859
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 3: it's a standoff hostage situation. They don't recognize the number,

860
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 3: they're likely not going to pick it up. And furthermore,

861
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 3: people of today really don't even listen to their voicemails anymore.

862
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 3: So I knew that if this guy's phone is working,

863
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 3: why not text him. I mean, he's going to get

864
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: it and he's going to read it. And sure enough,

865
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: he did, and that really opened the lines of communication,

866
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 3: because in that world, if they are not talking to you,

867
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 3: you are in real, real trouble. And if you can

868
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 3: get them to talk to either, you're going to be

869
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: able to be successful getting that individual out of that

870
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 3: situation about ninety or ninety five percent of the time.

871
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 3: So it's a big deal when you get them to communicate,

872
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 3: whether you know and so that that was a huge deal.

873
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: But I appreciate you noticing that.

874
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: Well to take to Jason White. I could talk to

875
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: you all night long.

876
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: I just admire you and I respect you, and I

877
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: appreciate it. And I do get to Tulsa every now

878
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: and then, and I will be calling you for dinner,

879
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: so we will have a great time and I will

880
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: finally meet you in person. But I just appreciate you

881
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: sharing with us tonight, and you know, I'm looking forward

882
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: to making you a part of my Zone seven Sugar perfect.

883
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 3: I love it, and I definitely consider you a friend.

884
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 3: And thank you so much, Max for having me as

885
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: part of your show. And it's well respected and I

886
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 3: feel really I'm just thankful, So thank.

887
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: You very much, y'all.

888
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: I'm end Zone seven the way that I always do

889
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: with a quote. I have a theory that the truth

890
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: is never told during the nine to five hours Hunter S.

891
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 2: Thompson. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.