WEBVTT - Rick Rubin 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:32.516 Pushkin, Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen 0:00:32.556 --> 0:00:34.836 to all of the music mentioned in this episode on 0:00:34.876 --> 0:00:37.196 our playlist, which you can find a link to in 0:00:37.276 --> 0:00:40.836 the show notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:44.956 is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. 0:00:46.316 --> 0:00:50.316 All right, enjoyed the episode. I first met Rick Rubin 0:00:50.396 --> 0:00:53.916 years ago at someone's house in Los Angeles. He's impossible 0:00:53.956 --> 0:00:57.716 to miss long white beard low soft voice, one of 0:00:57.716 --> 0:01:00.596 the great music producers of our time. He was there 0:01:00.636 --> 0:01:03.076 at the birth of hip hop. He produced Jay Z's 0:01:03.116 --> 0:01:07.316 ninety nine Problems. He did five Chili Peppers albums, produced 0:01:07.316 --> 0:01:11.956 Adele's twenty one, Tom Petty's Flowers. He resurrected Johnny Cash. 0:01:12.156 --> 0:01:14.796 That could go on. Then I met him again about 0:01:14.796 --> 0:01:16.716 a year ago because I'd been talking about doing a 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:19.396 music podcast with my old friend Bruce Headlam, and I 0:01:19.436 --> 0:01:21.276 heard that Rick had been talking about doing a music 0:01:21.276 --> 0:01:23.636 show too, which is a bit like saying that Bruce 0:01:23.676 --> 0:01:26.196 and I have been thinking about starting a pickup basketball game. 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:28.356 And then we heard that Lebron James had been thinking 0:01:28.396 --> 0:01:31.676 the exact same thing. I mean, whose pickup game are 0:01:31.676 --> 0:01:34.796 you going to join? The two short Canadians or lebron 0:01:35.716 --> 0:01:37.996 So I started going up to Rick's recording studio in 0:01:38.036 --> 0:01:40.556 Malibu whenever I was in La just to chat and 0:01:40.596 --> 0:01:44.796 listen to music. His place is called Shango Law, an oasis, 0:01:45.236 --> 0:01:47.676 one of the most famous recording studios in the country, 0:01:48.436 --> 0:01:51.156 built by Robbie Robertson in the band years ago. Bob 0:01:51.196 --> 0:01:54.636 Dylan recorded there and after him everyone, I mean everyone. 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:57.876 There's a main building, a cottage all in white. There's 0:01:57.916 --> 0:02:00.516 another building that looks like a chapel, and there's Bob 0:02:00.556 --> 0:02:03.316 Dylan's old tour bus which has been retrofitted as a 0:02:03.316 --> 0:02:06.356 small studio, which is my favorite place at Shango Law, 0:02:07.116 --> 0:02:09.836 all on a shimmering hiltop with the sound of the 0:02:09.836 --> 0:02:13.756 ocean surf in the background. We started taping our conversations 0:02:13.876 --> 0:02:16.436 and Rick started calling in the musicians he knew, and 0:02:16.476 --> 0:02:19.236 Bruce started sitting down with his favorite artists. And now 0:02:19.236 --> 0:02:23.396 we have this show, a podcast about musicians and their music. 0:02:24.356 --> 0:02:30.116 Our pickup game has come to life. My name is 0:02:30.156 --> 0:02:35.236 Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to Broken Record, a production of Pushkin Industries. 0:02:38.636 --> 0:02:40.996 Rick and I began recording the episode You're about to 0:02:41.036 --> 0:02:44.076 hear at Shango Law, not long ago, and I was 0:02:44.116 --> 0:02:46.036 going to go back up and finish talking to him 0:02:46.276 --> 0:02:49.516 when the Woolsey Fire started, one of the worst fires 0:02:49.556 --> 0:02:54.316 in La County history. It engulfed Malibu. As I'm recording this, 0:02:54.516 --> 0:02:58.476 thousands of acres of burned, countless homes are gone, an 0:02:58.596 --> 0:03:03.036 entire community lost. So I met Rick in Santa Monica 0:03:03.076 --> 0:03:06.916 instead the afternoon after Rick and his family fled the fire. 0:03:08.036 --> 0:03:12.236 Maybe just tell me about you yesterday. Woke up yesterday morning, 0:03:13.676 --> 0:03:16.236 was told that Malibu was going to be evacuated soon. 0:03:17.556 --> 0:03:20.836 So packed up the baby and left. Didn't really take anything, 0:03:20.996 --> 0:03:23.356 just took sort of what we were wearing, what we 0:03:23.436 --> 0:03:27.836 had on, a couple of t shirts, no stuff, and 0:03:28.076 --> 0:03:32.956 just left. What time did you leave? Nine thirty? And 0:03:32.996 --> 0:03:34.716 you say it took how many hours to get to 0:03:35.196 --> 0:03:37.436 It took a little over four hours to get Santa Monica. 0:03:37.516 --> 0:03:40.636 It's normally a twenty minute drive. And it was bumper 0:03:40.676 --> 0:03:44.556 to bumper parking lot like traffic the whole way. And 0:03:44.596 --> 0:03:47.316 did you when you were leaving, could you see the fires? 0:03:48.756 --> 0:03:50.676 You saw the smoke. Let me show you this picture. 0:03:51.716 --> 0:03:56.556 Let's see kind of give you a sense of it. 0:03:57.356 --> 0:04:01.836 Oh my gosh, that has bananas it's insane. Look it 0:04:01.876 --> 0:04:05.436 looks fake, it looks photograph that looks like it looks 0:04:05.476 --> 0:04:09.356 like a nuclear bomb. So what do you know at 0:04:09.356 --> 0:04:12.476 this point? What do you know about your house and studio? 0:04:12.756 --> 0:04:16.556 I don't know much. I know there have been reports 0:04:16.996 --> 0:04:20.276 that the house is gone, but it's impossible to know 0:04:20.396 --> 0:04:25.036 because no one can get there. There's this map that 0:04:25.356 --> 0:04:28.396 the county put up of where things burned, but it's 0:04:28.436 --> 0:04:32.036 not so accurate. But that map shows that my house 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:35.556 is gone, and that map shows that the studio is 0:04:35.556 --> 0:04:39.396 still surviving. There's a map on a website maintained by 0:04:39.476 --> 0:04:43.276 Ventura County. The purple colored parts are where the fire is, 0:04:44.236 --> 0:04:46.196 and if you zoom in right where Rick's house is, 0:04:46.596 --> 0:04:51.436 it's inside the purple area just and his studio is 0:04:51.596 --> 0:04:55.876 just outside the purple area. That's all he knew. I 0:04:55.876 --> 0:04:59.956 would have been a wreck. Rick isn't like that. This 0:05:00.116 --> 0:05:03.956 is I can't imagine being in your shoes. It's pretty strange. 0:05:04.236 --> 0:05:07.316 It's definitely, it's more strange than anything else. It's just 0:05:08.356 --> 0:05:10.156 I don't know what to make of it. Are you 0:05:10.236 --> 0:05:14.596 someone who's attached to your belongings? Not particularly? I mean 0:05:14.636 --> 0:05:17.156 I like the things I like, but I feel like, 0:05:19.196 --> 0:05:24.716 ultimately it's just stuff. Yeah, and most stuff is replaceable. 0:05:25.796 --> 0:05:29.916 In a way, it feels like a potential for a 0:05:29.956 --> 0:05:35.636 clean start. Yeah. When I moved from in town, I 0:05:35.676 --> 0:05:38.396 lived in a big, old Spanish house filled with antiques. 0:05:38.476 --> 0:05:40.276 And when I moved to Malibu, I moved to this 0:05:40.476 --> 0:05:43.356 very empty, zen house and that felt good. And this 0:05:43.396 --> 0:05:46.836 seems like an even more radical version of that, to 0:05:46.836 --> 0:05:51.316 where there's no house or stuff. You've gone back to 0:05:51.396 --> 0:05:55.716 the Oh my lord, we're traveling very light. Yeah. Have 0:05:55.876 --> 0:05:58.116 you talked to other people? Many? There are lots and 0:05:58.156 --> 0:06:03.156 lots of musicians in Malibu, many musicians, many friends, and 0:06:03.636 --> 0:06:07.076 and people are reacting differently. Some people are really hysterical, 0:06:07.716 --> 0:06:13.636 hysterically upset. Some people are concerned with losing specific things. 0:06:14.356 --> 0:06:19.036 But there's the reality of the situation. There isn't much 0:06:19.116 --> 0:06:22.996 to think about. Whatever energy I put into thinking about 0:06:23.036 --> 0:06:26.236 it won't change the situation. And I was thinking about it. 0:06:26.476 --> 0:06:30.716 Of all the you ask about the stuff, And when 0:06:30.716 --> 0:06:32.596 I was thinking about it last night, I got a 0:06:32.636 --> 0:06:36.476 little sad. When I was kind of envisioning walking through 0:06:36.476 --> 0:06:40.996 the house. The thing that made me saddest were the trees. 0:06:42.036 --> 0:06:46.156 The trees are these big beautiful, old trees that have 0:06:46.236 --> 0:06:51.516 been there for at least one hundred years, and you 0:06:51.516 --> 0:06:55.076 can always build a house, but the trees will never 0:06:55.116 --> 0:06:57.916 be those trees, And so much of the personality of 0:06:57.956 --> 0:07:01.556 the place for me was the setting of the trees. 0:07:01.956 --> 0:07:04.636 So in that way, I started thinking, Oh, it really 0:07:04.676 --> 0:07:08.596 is a loss because those trees will likely not be there. 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:13.556 Returned to Malibu, I don't know, we'll see. This was 0:07:13.596 --> 0:07:16.356 going to be broken record brought to you from Shangolaw 0:07:16.436 --> 0:07:20.836 in beautiful Malibu, but now it's something else. So keep 0:07:20.836 --> 0:07:22.876 that in mind as you listen to the earlier part 0:07:22.916 --> 0:07:27.396 of our conversation. The part that follows it was recorded 0:07:27.396 --> 0:07:30.236 in a Malibu that doesn't exist anymore, at a little 0:07:30.276 --> 0:07:34.076 oasis that is no longer an oasis. The grass was green, 0:07:34.196 --> 0:07:37.236 the sky was blue, the trees were beautiful. We sat 0:07:37.316 --> 0:07:40.476 in the main studio at Shanglaw, me all jumpy and 0:07:40.596 --> 0:07:45.116 ramped up as always, Rick barefoot sitting cross legged on 0:07:45.116 --> 0:07:48.436 one of the couches in the central studio, talking softly 0:07:49.156 --> 0:07:54.996 like the og that he is a happier time back then. 0:07:55.196 --> 0:07:56.876 I had to ask about one of the Rick Ruben 0:07:56.996 --> 0:07:59.916 urban legends about the time he played the famous New 0:07:59.996 --> 0:08:03.396 York punk club CBGB's in high school with his band 0:08:03.716 --> 0:08:06.756 The Pricks. Did he or did he not have his 0:08:06.836 --> 0:08:09.716 dad dress up in a policeman's uniform and shut down 0:08:09.756 --> 0:08:13.196 the show because the Pricks were too extreme even for CBGB's. 0:08:14.076 --> 0:08:16.836 Is this true that? Do you really menu? It's possible? 0:08:17.076 --> 0:08:20.156 I honestly don't remember, but it's possible. And I remember 0:08:20.236 --> 0:08:23.236 even with the early days of the Beastie Boys, we 0:08:23.276 --> 0:08:35.516 would sort of manufacture an incident. Yeah, just exciting situations. Yeah, this, 0:08:35.516 --> 0:08:38.596 this is consistent with your understanding of your dad's personality 0:08:38.596 --> 0:08:40.916 that he would play along. He would do that. Okay, 0:08:41.436 --> 0:08:45.156 any any opportunity to perform as a policeman, we love that. 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:47.516 Do you ever go back and listen to the music 0:08:47.556 --> 0:08:50.876 you played at that age? I do not. I haven't 0:08:50.876 --> 0:08:52.836 heard it in a long time. Yeah, what do you 0:08:52.876 --> 0:08:54.556 think you would? How do you think you would? I 0:08:54.556 --> 0:08:57.196 don't honestly listen back to music I've worked on at 0:08:57.236 --> 0:09:00.676 any point, really not so much. Why is it just 0:09:00.796 --> 0:09:04.876 kind of moving forward? Yeah? I rarely read things that. Yeah. 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:07.636 I also think when you put a lot of time 0:09:07.676 --> 0:09:11.476 into something, you've already spent that time with it. It's 0:09:11.516 --> 0:09:14.276 like if you've spent a thousand hours on a book, 0:09:14.596 --> 0:09:17.756 you don't want to spend more time you've already done that, yea. 0:09:18.036 --> 0:09:20.596 So same with music. So we work on it for 0:09:20.876 --> 0:09:26.676 a long time and by the time it's done, it's done. 0:09:27.036 --> 0:09:30.196 Was there a point where you decided you would rather 0:09:31.436 --> 0:09:35.156 produce and make music than perform it. I was on 0:09:35.276 --> 0:09:37.796 tour with the Beastie Boys, the first Beastie Boy tour 0:09:38.036 --> 0:09:41.316 was opening for Madonna, which was Madonna's first tour, the Virgin. 0:09:41.436 --> 0:09:45.596 The Beastie Boys opened for Madonna. Hilarious, It's hilarious. There 0:09:45.636 --> 0:09:47.556 was a whole aspect of the Beastie Boys that were 0:09:47.596 --> 0:09:51.956 really influenced by Monty Python and Steve Martin, and there 0:09:51.996 --> 0:09:58.276 was definitely a outrageous, surreal comedy aspect to it, and 0:09:58.836 --> 0:10:00.996 being on the Madonna tour was sort of like that 0:10:01.276 --> 0:10:06.396 because the Beasties were sort of rowdy and dirty, and 0:10:06.516 --> 0:10:09.876 Madonna's audience were fourteen year old girl those twelve year 0:10:09.876 --> 0:10:13.956 old girls, so it was a really dicey It's like 0:10:13.996 --> 0:10:16.716 when Jimmy Hendrix opened for the Monkeys, you know, it's 0:10:16.716 --> 0:10:21.076 like it's a weird doesn't really work, so you would 0:10:21.076 --> 0:10:22.756 literally look at in the audience, and would you see 0:10:22.756 --> 0:10:26.196 a mixture of these kind of yeah, little girls and 0:10:26.236 --> 0:10:30.476 their moms mixed in with some Beastie fans, not so 0:10:30.516 --> 0:10:32.636 many Beasti fans, And we didn't even have We had 0:10:32.756 --> 0:10:34.756 very little, We didn't even have an album out yet. 0:10:34.836 --> 0:10:37.396 It was it was very early in the Beasti's career. 0:10:37.916 --> 0:10:40.836 We did the shows from the point of view of 0:10:40.836 --> 0:10:46.596 being the bad the bad guys. So in like pro 0:10:46.676 --> 0:10:50.156 wrestling world, you have good guys and bad guys, and 0:10:50.196 --> 0:10:52.436 the Beasties always sort of played the role of the 0:10:52.476 --> 0:10:57.716 bad guys, which wasn't completely understood by the audience. It 0:10:57.796 --> 0:10:59.876 was just, you know, there were a lot of booze, 0:10:59.916 --> 0:11:03.396 and it was all sort of an inside joke. Every 0:11:03.516 --> 0:11:06.276 everything to do with the Beastie Boys was essentially an 0:11:06.316 --> 0:11:09.796 inside joke, and we the lyrics to the songs were 0:11:09.836 --> 0:11:13.676 often things that just we either inside jokes or things 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:18.676 that we found funny, but with no looking past a 0:11:18.796 --> 0:11:23.196 very small audience. How did you how did you meet them? 0:11:23.276 --> 0:11:26.036 Was this when you were in Nyu? I was at Nyu. 0:11:26.436 --> 0:11:30.756 I think Adam Yauk was going to barred. Adam Harvetz 0:11:30.796 --> 0:11:33.436 might have still been in high school I can't remember 0:11:33.436 --> 0:11:36.036 if Mike was still in school, but we met through 0:11:36.076 --> 0:11:40.036 punk rock circles. We were all into punk rock and 0:11:40.076 --> 0:11:43.876 there was a little teeny punk rock record store called 0:11:43.956 --> 0:11:47.516 Rat Cage Records, who actually put out the first Beastie Boys, 0:11:47.556 --> 0:11:51.396 maybe even the first two Beastie Boys singles, and I 0:11:51.476 --> 0:11:55.756 probably met them at the Rat Cage Store. Then there 0:11:55.836 --> 0:11:58.756 was a club called Nagrill on Second Avenue that was 0:11:58.756 --> 0:12:02.316 a reggae club and one night a week that had 0:12:02.396 --> 0:12:05.556 hip hop Night, and I remember meeting Mike d at 0:12:05.556 --> 0:12:08.716 that as well. What's fascinating to me about that era 0:12:08.956 --> 0:12:15.636 is the line between punk and hip hop is so porous. 0:12:17.196 --> 0:12:22.836 Is Yes and no. They were definitely two different scenes, 0:12:23.756 --> 0:12:29.116 but they were both bringing music back to a street level, 0:12:30.116 --> 0:12:34.676 so there was a crossover appreciation. But it was definitely 0:12:34.716 --> 0:12:39.716 two different worlds. Yeah, but you had a foot in both, absolutely, 0:12:39.756 --> 0:12:42.916 as did the Bcie Boys. That's what we really had 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:46.916 in common was our punk rock roots and love of 0:12:46.996 --> 0:12:50.716 hip hop. When I was in high school in Long Island, 0:12:51.556 --> 0:12:57.076 there was a radio show called Mister Magic's Rap Attack 0:12:57.236 --> 0:13:00.316 on WHBI, but that was the only place that hip 0:13:00.356 --> 0:13:04.356 hop was on the radio. The kids who liked hip 0:13:04.396 --> 0:13:08.436 hop in my high school would record this show and 0:13:08.596 --> 0:13:12.596 listen to it on boombox all week, and I had 0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:15.796 friends in that circle, and I would listen to music 0:13:15.836 --> 0:13:18.436 with them, And then I was also listening to punk 0:13:18.516 --> 0:13:20.396 rock on my own, but there were no I was 0:13:20.436 --> 0:13:23.996 the only punk rocker in my high school. So in 0:13:24.076 --> 0:13:26.596 rap music I had some friends. In punk rock, I 0:13:26.596 --> 0:13:31.316 didn't really have friends. Yeah, again, because it was pre internet. 0:13:31.356 --> 0:13:33.876 If it was Internet time, i'd have friends all over 0:13:33.876 --> 0:13:35.876 the world who liked the things I like. But then 0:13:36.276 --> 0:13:38.996 it was really the people that you were around. So 0:13:39.636 --> 0:13:42.716 because of the community of hip hop, it took on 0:13:42.796 --> 0:13:46.156 a bigger role in my life. And it wasn't in 0:13:46.196 --> 0:13:51.116 those years unusual for white kids in New York to 0:13:51.156 --> 0:13:53.676 be going to hip hop shows or absolutely it was 0:13:53.916 --> 0:13:56.796 very unusual. So you would show up and I'd be 0:13:56.836 --> 0:13:59.796 the only white person and how did you did that? 0:14:00.956 --> 0:14:03.636 Did you like that? Did you do you notice? Did 0:14:03.676 --> 0:14:06.436 you really think about it? I went for the music, 0:14:06.836 --> 0:14:09.716 And while sometimes I went places where I felt like 0:14:10.516 --> 0:14:13.196 when I would walk in, I would feel like, hmm, 0:14:13.356 --> 0:14:16.036 I wonder if I belong here, But then as soon 0:14:16.116 --> 0:14:19.476 as the music would start, my relationship to the music 0:14:20.036 --> 0:14:22.516 and the rest of the audience relationship to the music 0:14:22.636 --> 0:14:26.436 was the same. So I felt camaraderie in terms of 0:14:28.396 --> 0:14:32.636 musical taste and fandom. But you what's interesting is that 0:14:33.196 --> 0:14:39.636 your career is defined by an indifference to boundaries, right. 0:14:40.676 --> 0:14:44.196 It's almost like you're completely uninterested in the kind of 0:14:44.356 --> 0:14:47.316 genres other people set up, And I'm just curious. Was 0:14:48.476 --> 0:14:51.516 that there from the very beginning? Yeah, music was always music, 0:14:51.516 --> 0:14:53.996 and I always liked a wide variety. I was like 0:14:54.116 --> 0:15:01.036 James Brown and the Talking Heads and Barry White, the Beatles. 0:15:01.596 --> 0:15:03.916 When you toured with the Beasties and Madonna. Did you 0:15:03.996 --> 0:15:13.196 like Madonna's music? It was probably poppy for my taste 0:15:13.236 --> 0:15:18.436 at that time. Yeah, Yeah, I tended to like more edgy, 0:15:19.156 --> 0:15:24.196 more edgy things like hip hop, punk, rock, heavy metal. Parenthetically, 0:15:24.716 --> 0:15:29.756 did you guys all hang out together? We did? Man, 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:32.356 I wish I had it a fly on a wall 0:15:32.396 --> 0:15:36.076 for that. So you're like, how long did the two 0:15:36.236 --> 0:15:40.956 go on? I remember it being a summer. But oh 0:15:40.996 --> 0:15:43.476 but what I didn't get to in the story was 0:15:43.556 --> 0:15:46.676 I got an ear infection and had to stop had 0:15:46.716 --> 0:15:51.796 to stop touring. And if it wasn't for that, I 0:15:51.876 --> 0:15:54.916 probably would have kept doing it. But in reality it 0:15:54.996 --> 0:15:57.076 was I think it was sort of the universe stepping 0:15:57.116 --> 0:15:59.116 in saying, you know, you belong in the recording studio, 0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:02.276 and it felt right, like it felt more right for me. 0:16:03.436 --> 0:16:08.036 I was never a good traveler. I was better being 0:16:08.076 --> 0:16:11.116 in one place. You weren't but you on that tooy, 0:16:11.196 --> 0:16:13.676 you weren't playing. I was the DJ. Oh you were 0:16:13.716 --> 0:16:17.836 the DJ. Yeah? Oh I see, yeah, I was the 0:16:17.876 --> 0:16:20.596 DJ in the group. Yeah yeah, oh that's oh. I know. 0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:22.916 I had forgotten that fact. And we got to play. 0:16:22.956 --> 0:16:24.876 I mean, we played at Madison Square Guarden, we played 0:16:24.876 --> 0:16:26.996 at Radio City Musical. It was unbelievable. I mean for 0:16:27.236 --> 0:16:29.196 a kid growing up in New York getting to play 0:16:29.236 --> 0:16:34.836 in the places that you maybe twenty one, yeah, twenty 0:16:34.876 --> 0:16:39.156 twenty one, you're just out of NYU, still in NYU. Yeah, 0:16:39.236 --> 0:16:43.316 so maybe even younger. Yeah, in nineteen living in NYU dorm. 0:16:43.676 --> 0:16:46.396 Are you going to class? Are you? I didn't take 0:16:46.396 --> 0:16:48.876 any classes before three in the afternoon because I knew 0:16:49.116 --> 0:16:51.756 I wouldn't wake up. Yeah, how do you have time 0:16:51.796 --> 0:16:54.156 to take classes when you're are you out every night? 0:16:54.676 --> 0:16:57.196 Out every night? And I would go to these clubs 0:16:57.236 --> 0:17:00.476 like Nagrill and the Roxy and see what was going 0:17:00.516 --> 0:17:04.996 on there, and the records that were coming out didn't 0:17:04.996 --> 0:17:10.716 reflect hip hop. Hip Hop was a whole interactive culture 0:17:10.756 --> 0:17:13.036 and the DJ. The reason in the Deaf Jam logo 0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:17.836 the DJ is big is because the DJ was a 0:17:17.996 --> 0:17:22.876 key piece of the hip hop world, but the records 0:17:22.876 --> 0:17:25.156 at the time didn't reflect that. The records at the 0:17:25.196 --> 0:17:29.316 time were a band playing and a guy rapping. But 0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:31.436 if you went to a hip hop club, you saw 0:17:31.476 --> 0:17:36.556 a guy DJing and cutting up records and scratching and 0:17:36.636 --> 0:17:40.556 guys rapping and sort of the interaction between that was 0:17:40.596 --> 0:17:42.716 the version of the hip hop band was the DJ 0:17:42.796 --> 0:17:46.996 and the MC. So really the goal of making records 0:17:47.076 --> 0:17:50.156 was more almost like a documentarian of like, I'd go 0:17:50.156 --> 0:17:53.836 to these clubs, I'd hear this incredible music. Then I 0:17:53.836 --> 0:17:56.716 would buy the records and they wouldn't be anything like it. 0:17:57.356 --> 0:18:00.196 And just from the fan point of view of wanting 0:18:00.876 --> 0:18:02.836 records that sounded like what I heard at the club, 0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:07.356 I started making them. What in your mind, is that 0:18:07.556 --> 0:18:13.596 is the first great true hip hop record or one 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:20.116 of the first Yeah, I would say run DMC, Sucker MCS, 0:18:20.916 --> 0:18:26.356 that's probably the best hip hop record. They were rap 0:18:26.396 --> 0:18:29.596 records before that, but that was maybe the first hip 0:18:29.596 --> 0:18:33.276 hop record you know, in that era, I had a 0:18:33.356 --> 0:18:37.636 jade tree in my dorm room which I which I dubbed, 0:18:37.636 --> 0:18:41.236 which I named run DM Tree. Wow, that's just how 0:18:41.316 --> 0:18:44.076 that's how far from the mainstream we were in in 0:18:44.316 --> 0:18:47.956 Toronto in nineteen eighty the U and I had all 0:18:48.196 --> 0:18:50.756 I rewrote the lyrics of the song to be all 0:18:50.796 --> 0:18:55.356 about my jade tree. J trees are lucky. You're supposed 0:18:55.396 --> 0:18:58.676 to be lucky. Really. Yeah, we'll be back with more 0:18:58.716 --> 0:19:05.756 broken record after this. If we were to make a 0:19:06.116 --> 0:19:10.276 musical biography of Rick Rubin in which we list all 0:19:10.316 --> 0:19:14.196 of the transformative songs music you worked on over the 0:19:14.196 --> 0:19:17.276 course of your life, tell me the next one, what's 0:19:17.316 --> 0:19:21.756 the next song? That kind of opens up your sense 0:19:21.796 --> 0:19:25.276 of what's possible musically as a listener. As a listener 0:19:25.276 --> 0:19:28.316 and also as a producer, I can say another one 0:19:28.316 --> 0:19:31.996 that was meaningful was before there was a group called 0:19:31.996 --> 0:19:37.276 Public Enemy. Chuck d had a radio show and the 0:19:37.276 --> 0:19:41.556 theme song from his radio show was called Public Enemy 0:19:41.636 --> 0:19:45.276 Number one, and that's what ended up being what the 0:19:45.276 --> 0:19:48.596 band was based on. But when we first heard that 0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:52.676 little minute long promo for his radio show, something that 0:19:52.716 --> 0:19:57.836 didn't sound like anything else. I think another key piece 0:19:58.036 --> 0:19:59.916 in the story of the music that we were making 0:19:59.956 --> 0:20:03.476 at the time was walked this way. Was it really 0:20:03.956 --> 0:20:06.756 bridged a gap for people who didn't understand hip hop, 0:20:06.836 --> 0:20:09.436 and that was really the purpose of doing it. People 0:20:09.516 --> 0:20:11.676 at the time didn't think hip hop was even music, 0:20:13.356 --> 0:20:16.196 and the idea was if we could find a song 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:20.356 that was familiar, that was very close to hip hop 0:20:20.716 --> 0:20:24.436 and could be given a hip hop treatment, that it 0:20:24.476 --> 0:20:27.596 would help people bridge the gap. But what was it 0:20:27.636 --> 0:20:30.876 about that particular song by Aerosmith that made you think 0:20:30.916 --> 0:20:34.236 it was appropriate for this kind of treatment. It's lyrically 0:20:35.116 --> 0:20:38.676 it's very close to a rap record already. You know, 0:20:38.676 --> 0:20:42.676 if you listen to the original Aerosmith version, the way 0:20:42.876 --> 0:20:47.596 Steven does the vocals, it's essentially a rap record. And 0:20:47.636 --> 0:20:50.196 that was the key. It was like, Okay, this is 0:20:50.356 --> 0:20:53.876 music that people are familiar with, that they grew up liking, 0:20:54.596 --> 0:20:57.036 and now here's this other music that's similar to it, 0:20:57.356 --> 0:21:00.636 but they don't get it at all. If we could 0:21:00.716 --> 0:21:07.156 just point to this connection, maybe the lights will go off. 0:21:07.676 --> 0:21:11.356 What does it mean when you say that it's essentially 0:21:11.396 --> 0:21:14.436 a hip hop record in a way lyrically what does 0:21:14.436 --> 0:21:18.476 that mean? The way the song works is built on 0:21:19.596 --> 0:21:24.876 a rhyme scheme and phrasing more than melody. Most hip 0:21:24.876 --> 0:21:28.316 hop is based on a rhyme scheme more than melody. 0:21:28.996 --> 0:21:32.236 That's really the big change is like the difference between 0:21:32.276 --> 0:21:41.396 singing and rapping is rapping is words in a rhythm 0:21:41.956 --> 0:21:48.436 that are catchy because of the rhythm, whereas most music 0:21:48.596 --> 0:21:53.396 up until rapping, it's based on the melody. And that's 0:21:53.476 --> 0:21:57.516 really the difference. Yeah, and the Aerosmith song is rooted 0:21:57.556 --> 0:22:04.356 in the phrasing. Sometimes drawing those connections are the things 0:22:04.396 --> 0:22:08.876 that help an audience understand what's happening. Is your photo? 0:22:08.916 --> 0:22:11.516 Can you play it just a little bit of the original? 0:22:11.756 --> 0:22:15.676 I want to kind of hear that what you're talking about. Okay, 0:22:15.676 --> 0:22:26.316 so this is the Aerosmith version. Yeah, that much. You'd 0:22:26.396 --> 0:22:28.636 hear in every hip hop club what I just played 0:22:28.636 --> 0:22:34.116 you that that was an accepted norm, norm in the 0:22:34.236 --> 0:22:37.436 vocabulary of hip hop. Yeah, nobody knew there was a 0:22:37.476 --> 0:22:40.836 song after that in hip hop. Yeah, all they knew 0:22:40.996 --> 0:22:51.236 was just that much. Just that much. So if you 0:22:51.316 --> 0:22:54.836 had two turntables, you would play that much on one 0:22:54.876 --> 0:22:57.556 turntable and you'd get the second one ready in the 0:22:57.556 --> 0:23:01.916 same spot, and you would continue just that much, and 0:23:01.956 --> 0:23:04.996 then a rapper would rap over the top, and they 0:23:04.996 --> 0:23:08.196 would make up freestyle raps of what they wanted, usually bragging. 0:23:08.476 --> 0:23:11.716 So that's what most rap was at that time. So 0:23:11.836 --> 0:23:15.996 the idea of asking run DMC to learn the words 0:23:16.396 --> 0:23:19.996 to an Aerosmith song was a very foreign concept at 0:23:20.036 --> 0:23:23.916 the time. There had been no cover songs done in 0:23:23.956 --> 0:23:26.796 the hip hop world, and they thought it was a 0:23:26.876 --> 0:23:29.636 terrible idea, and they thought it was like country lyrics. 0:23:29.676 --> 0:23:31.876 I remember them thinking, it's like, these are terrible lyrics. 0:23:35.556 --> 0:23:37.436 And how long did it take for them to come 0:23:37.476 --> 0:23:41.716 around after the Recker came out. I don't know that 0:23:41.756 --> 0:23:45.636 they ever came around until it was really successful. Like 0:23:45.676 --> 0:23:51.036 I can remember even when we recorded the vocals, they 0:23:51.076 --> 0:23:54.156 were sort of not into it. Can we hear a 0:23:54.196 --> 0:23:55.996 little bit of the vocals and then explain to me 0:23:56.036 --> 0:24:00.996 why you say there was a hip hop vocals? Yeah? So, now, okay, 0:24:01.076 --> 0:24:19.396 So we'll listen to the Aerosmith version first. Not very now, 0:24:29.876 --> 0:24:36.836 so that phrasing is very hip hop, very yeah, it's 0:24:36.916 --> 0:24:39.076 it's as close to a hip hop record without being 0:24:39.116 --> 0:24:41.636 a hip hop record as can be. Wait, so we 0:24:41.756 --> 0:24:43.596 so we should we listen to the hip so we 0:24:43.756 --> 0:25:08.716 listen to Ren dmc version. Is it's not so different? Yeah, 0:25:08.756 --> 0:25:12.076 it's not very different. Do you have a fan? Do 0:25:12.156 --> 0:25:17.676 you prefer one to the other? Uh? I guess I 0:25:17.716 --> 0:25:20.956 probably have a preference for the original, just because growing 0:25:21.036 --> 0:25:25.636 up it was in my vocabulary. What did what did 0:25:25.756 --> 0:25:29.356 Aerosmith say about it? Do you know? They loved it? 0:25:29.396 --> 0:25:31.916 They loved it. Yeah, and they were always into street 0:25:31.956 --> 0:25:35.956 culture and they always wanted to be part of street culture, 0:25:36.036 --> 0:25:38.836 so for them it was really exciting. Yeah. And then 0:25:38.876 --> 0:25:42.436 you said you would have meetings with people who understood 0:25:42.436 --> 0:25:44.836 the popularity hip up but didn't understo didn't accept it 0:25:44.876 --> 0:25:48.716 as music? What does that mean? That was the words. 0:25:49.316 --> 0:25:50.996 Those were the words that I heard, and it was 0:25:50.996 --> 0:25:54.156 so unusual to me. I can remember a specific quote 0:25:54.556 --> 0:25:58.156 from a record company executive at the time, which is, 0:25:58.556 --> 0:26:00.516 what do you attribute the success of this? I mean, 0:26:00.556 --> 0:26:03.156 we know it's not music, and they were saying this 0:26:03.236 --> 0:26:08.756 as like fans, Yeah, and they just didn't they didn't 0:26:08.796 --> 0:26:12.516 see it, didn't. I mean, I think a lot of 0:26:12.516 --> 0:26:15.556 people reacted that way. A lot of people didn't see 0:26:15.556 --> 0:26:17.116 it as music in the same way that a lot 0:26:17.156 --> 0:26:19.236 of people from the jazz eor It didn't see rock 0:26:19.276 --> 0:26:24.276 and rollers music. It's the same. It's those revolutions really 0:26:24.356 --> 0:26:30.676 changed things. What it helped do was open up hip 0:26:30.676 --> 0:26:34.876 hop music to the suburbs and being a suburban kid. 0:26:35.636 --> 0:26:40.476 That was in some ways the intention. It's also interesting 0:26:40.476 --> 0:26:44.756 because it wasn't done for the sake of popularity at all. 0:26:45.196 --> 0:26:48.756