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Speaker 1: Pushkin, Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen

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Speaker 1: to all of the music mentioned in this episode on

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Speaker 1: our playlist, which you can find a link to in

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Speaker 1: the show notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song

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Speaker 1: is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect.

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Speaker 1: All right, enjoyed the episode. I first met Rick Rubin

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Speaker 1: years ago at someone's house in Los Angeles. He's impossible

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Speaker 1: to miss long white beard low soft voice, one of

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Speaker 1: the great music producers of our time. He was there

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Speaker 1: at the birth of hip hop. He produced Jay Z's

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Speaker 1: ninety nine Problems. He did five Chili Peppers albums, produced

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Speaker 1: Adele's twenty one, Tom Petty's Flowers. He resurrected Johnny Cash.

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Speaker 1: That could go on. Then I met him again about

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Speaker 1: a year ago because I'd been talking about doing a

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Speaker 1: music podcast with my old friend Bruce Headlam, and I

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Speaker 1: heard that Rick had been talking about doing a music

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Speaker 1: show too, which is a bit like saying that Bruce

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Speaker 1: and I have been thinking about starting a pickup basketball game.

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Speaker 1: And then we heard that Lebron James had been thinking

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Speaker 1: the exact same thing. I mean, whose pickup game are

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Speaker 1: you going to join? The two short Canadians or lebron

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Speaker 1: So I started going up to Rick's recording studio in

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Speaker 1: Malibu whenever I was in La just to chat and

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Speaker 1: listen to music. His place is called Shango Law, an oasis,

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Speaker 1: one of the most famous recording studios in the country,

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Speaker 1: built by Robbie Robertson in the band years ago. Bob

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Speaker 1: Dylan recorded there and after him everyone, I mean everyone.

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Speaker 1: There's a main building, a cottage all in white. There's

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Speaker 1: another building that looks like a chapel, and there's Bob

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Speaker 1: Dylan's old tour bus which has been retrofitted as a

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Speaker 1: small studio, which is my favorite place at Shango Law,

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Speaker 1: all on a shimmering hiltop with the sound of the

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Speaker 1: ocean surf in the background. We started taping our conversations

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Speaker 1: and Rick started calling in the musicians he knew, and

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Speaker 1: Bruce started sitting down with his favorite artists. And now

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Speaker 1: we have this show, a podcast about musicians and their music.

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Speaker 1: Our pickup game has come to life. My name is

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Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to Broken Record, a production of Pushkin Industries.

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Speaker 1: Rick and I began recording the episode You're about to

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Speaker 1: hear at Shango Law, not long ago, and I was

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Speaker 1: going to go back up and finish talking to him

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Speaker 1: when the Woolsey Fire started, one of the worst fires

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Speaker 1: in La County history. It engulfed Malibu. As I'm recording this,

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Speaker 1: thousands of acres of burned, countless homes are gone, an

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Speaker 1: entire community lost. So I met Rick in Santa Monica

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Speaker 1: instead the afternoon after Rick and his family fled the fire.

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Speaker 1: Maybe just tell me about you yesterday. Woke up yesterday morning,

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Speaker 1: was told that Malibu was going to be evacuated soon.

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Speaker 1: So packed up the baby and left. Didn't really take anything,

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Speaker 1: just took sort of what we were wearing, what we

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Speaker 1: had on, a couple of t shirts, no stuff, and

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Speaker 1: just left. What time did you leave? Nine thirty? And

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Speaker 1: you say it took how many hours to get to

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Speaker 1: It took a little over four hours to get Santa Monica.

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Speaker 1: It's normally a twenty minute drive. And it was bumper

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Speaker 1: to bumper parking lot like traffic the whole way. And

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Speaker 1: did you when you were leaving, could you see the fires?

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Speaker 1: You saw the smoke. Let me show you this picture.

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Speaker 1: Let's see kind of give you a sense of it.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that has bananas it's insane. Look it

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Speaker 1: looks fake, it looks photograph that looks like it looks

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Speaker 1: like a nuclear bomb. So what do you know at

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Speaker 1: this point? What do you know about your house and studio?

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Speaker 1: I don't know much. I know there have been reports

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Speaker 1: that the house is gone, but it's impossible to know

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Speaker 1: because no one can get there. There's this map that

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Speaker 1: the county put up of where things burned, but it's

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Speaker 1: not so accurate. But that map shows that my house

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Speaker 1: is gone, and that map shows that the studio is

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Speaker 1: still surviving. There's a map on a website maintained by

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Speaker 1: Ventura County. The purple colored parts are where the fire is,

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Speaker 1: and if you zoom in right where Rick's house is,

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Speaker 1: it's inside the purple area just and his studio is

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Speaker 1: just outside the purple area. That's all he knew. I

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Speaker 1: would have been a wreck. Rick isn't like that. This

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Speaker 1: is I can't imagine being in your shoes. It's pretty strange.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely, it's more strange than anything else. It's just

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to make of it. Are you

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Speaker 1: someone who's attached to your belongings? Not particularly? I mean

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Speaker 1: I like the things I like, but I feel like,

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Speaker 1: ultimately it's just stuff. Yeah, and most stuff is replaceable.

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Speaker 1: In a way, it feels like a potential for a

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Speaker 1: clean start. Yeah. When I moved from in town, I

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Speaker 1: lived in a big, old Spanish house filled with antiques.

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Speaker 1: And when I moved to Malibu, I moved to this

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Speaker 1: very empty, zen house and that felt good. And this

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Speaker 1: seems like an even more radical version of that, to

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Speaker 1: where there's no house or stuff. You've gone back to

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Speaker 1: the Oh my lord, we're traveling very light. Yeah. Have

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Speaker 1: you talked to other people? Many? There are lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of musicians in Malibu, many musicians, many friends, and

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Speaker 1: and people are reacting differently. Some people are really hysterical,

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Speaker 1: hysterically upset. Some people are concerned with losing specific things.

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Speaker 1: But there's the reality of the situation. There isn't much

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Speaker 1: to think about. Whatever energy I put into thinking about

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Speaker 1: it won't change the situation. And I was thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: Of all the you ask about the stuff, And when

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about it last night, I got a

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Speaker 1: little sad. When I was kind of envisioning walking through

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Speaker 1: the house. The thing that made me saddest were the trees.

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Speaker 1: The trees are these big beautiful, old trees that have

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Speaker 1: been there for at least one hundred years, and you

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Speaker 1: can always build a house, but the trees will never

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Speaker 1: be those trees, And so much of the personality of

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Speaker 1: the place for me was the setting of the trees.

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Speaker 1: So in that way, I started thinking, Oh, it really

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Speaker 1: is a loss because those trees will likely not be there.

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Speaker 1: Returned to Malibu, I don't know, we'll see. This was

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Speaker 1: going to be broken record brought to you from Shangolaw

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Speaker 1: in beautiful Malibu, but now it's something else. So keep

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Speaker 1: that in mind as you listen to the earlier part

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Speaker 1: of our conversation. The part that follows it was recorded

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Speaker 1: in a Malibu that doesn't exist anymore, at a little

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Speaker 1: oasis that is no longer an oasis. The grass was green,

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Speaker 1: the sky was blue, the trees were beautiful. We sat

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Speaker 1: in the main studio at Shanglaw, me all jumpy and

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Speaker 1: ramped up as always, Rick barefoot sitting cross legged on

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Speaker 1: one of the couches in the central studio, talking softly

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Speaker 1: like the og that he is a happier time back then.

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Speaker 1: I had to ask about one of the Rick Ruben

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Speaker 1: urban legends about the time he played the famous New

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Speaker 1: York punk club CBGB's in high school with his band

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Speaker 1: The Pricks. Did he or did he not have his

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Speaker 1: dad dress up in a policeman's uniform and shut down

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Speaker 1: the show because the Pricks were too extreme even for CBGB's.

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Speaker 1: Is this true that? Do you really menu? It's possible?

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Speaker 1: I honestly don't remember, but it's possible. And I remember

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Speaker 1: even with the early days of the Beastie Boys, we

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Speaker 1: would sort of manufacture an incident. Yeah, just exciting situations. Yeah, this,

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Speaker 1: this is consistent with your understanding of your dad's personality

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Speaker 1: that he would play along. He would do that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: any any opportunity to perform as a policeman, we love that.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever go back and listen to the music

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Speaker 1: you played at that age? I do not. I haven't

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Speaker 1: heard it in a long time. Yeah, what do you

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Speaker 1: think you would? How do you think you would? I

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Speaker 1: don't honestly listen back to music I've worked on at

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Speaker 1: any point, really not so much. Why is it just

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Speaker 1: kind of moving forward? Yeah? I rarely read things that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I also think when you put a lot of time

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Speaker 1: into something, you've already spent that time with it. It's

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Speaker 1: like if you've spent a thousand hours on a book,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to spend more time you've already done that, yea.

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Speaker 1: So same with music. So we work on it for

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Speaker 1: a long time and by the time it's done, it's done.

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Speaker 1: Was there a point where you decided you would rather

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Speaker 1: produce and make music than perform it. I was on

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Speaker 1: tour with the Beastie Boys, the first Beastie Boy tour

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Speaker 1: was opening for Madonna, which was Madonna's first tour, the Virgin.

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Speaker 1: The Beastie Boys opened for Madonna. Hilarious, It's hilarious. There

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Speaker 1: was a whole aspect of the Beastie Boys that were

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Speaker 1: really influenced by Monty Python and Steve Martin, and there

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Speaker 1: was definitely a outrageous, surreal comedy aspect to it, and

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Speaker 1: being on the Madonna tour was sort of like that

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Speaker 1: because the Beasties were sort of rowdy and dirty, and

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Speaker 1: Madonna's audience were fourteen year old girl those twelve year

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Speaker 1: old girls, so it was a really dicey It's like

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Speaker 1: when Jimmy Hendrix opened for the Monkeys, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like it's a weird doesn't really work, so you would

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Speaker 1: literally look at in the audience, and would you see

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Speaker 1: a mixture of these kind of yeah, little girls and

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Speaker 1: their moms mixed in with some Beastie fans, not so

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Speaker 1: many Beasti fans, And we didn't even have We had

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Speaker 1: very little, We didn't even have an album out yet.

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Speaker 1: It was it was very early in the Beasti's career.

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Speaker 1: We did the shows from the point of view of

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Speaker 1: being the bad the bad guys. So in like pro

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Speaker 1: wrestling world, you have good guys and bad guys, and

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Speaker 1: the Beasties always sort of played the role of the

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Speaker 1: bad guys, which wasn't completely understood by the audience. It

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Speaker 1: was just, you know, there were a lot of booze,

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Speaker 1: and it was all sort of an inside joke. Every

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Speaker 1: everything to do with the Beastie Boys was essentially an

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Speaker 1: inside joke, and we the lyrics to the songs were

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Speaker 1: often things that just we either inside jokes or things

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Speaker 1: that we found funny, but with no looking past a

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Speaker 1: very small audience. How did you how did you meet them?

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Speaker 1: Was this when you were in Nyu? I was at Nyu.

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Speaker 1: I think Adam Yauk was going to barred. Adam Harvetz

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Speaker 1: might have still been in high school I can't remember

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Speaker 1: if Mike was still in school, but we met through

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Speaker 1: punk rock circles. We were all into punk rock and

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Speaker 1: there was a little teeny punk rock record store called

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Speaker 1: Rat Cage Records, who actually put out the first Beastie Boys,

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Speaker 1: maybe even the first two Beastie Boys singles, and I

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Speaker 1: probably met them at the Rat Cage Store. Then there

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Speaker 1: was a club called Nagrill on Second Avenue that was

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Speaker 1: a reggae club and one night a week that had

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Speaker 1: hip hop Night, and I remember meeting Mike d at

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Speaker 1: that as well. What's fascinating to me about that era

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Speaker 1: is the line between punk and hip hop is so porous.

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Speaker 1: Is Yes and no. They were definitely two different scenes,

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Speaker 1: but they were both bringing music back to a street level,

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Speaker 1: so there was a crossover appreciation. But it was definitely

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Speaker 1: two different worlds. Yeah, but you had a foot in both, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: as did the Bcie Boys. That's what we really had

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Speaker 1: in common was our punk rock roots and love of

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Speaker 1: hip hop. When I was in high school in Long Island,

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Speaker 1: there was a radio show called Mister Magic's Rap Attack

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Speaker 1: on WHBI, but that was the only place that hip

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Speaker 1: hop was on the radio. The kids who liked hip

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Speaker 1: hop in my high school would record this show and

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Speaker 1: listen to it on boombox all week, and I had

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Speaker 1: friends in that circle, and I would listen to music

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Speaker 1: with them, And then I was also listening to punk

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Speaker 1: rock on my own, but there were no I was

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Speaker 1: the only punk rocker in my high school. So in

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Speaker 1: rap music I had some friends. In punk rock, I

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Speaker 1: didn't really have friends. Yeah, again, because it was pre internet.

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Speaker 1: If it was Internet time, i'd have friends all over

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Speaker 1: the world who liked the things I like. But then

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Speaker 1: it was really the people that you were around. So

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Speaker 1: because of the community of hip hop, it took on

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Speaker 1: a bigger role in my life. And it wasn't in

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Speaker 1: those years unusual for white kids in New York to

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Speaker 1: be going to hip hop shows or absolutely it was

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Speaker 1: very unusual. So you would show up and I'd be

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Speaker 1: the only white person and how did you did that?

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Speaker 1: Did you like that? Did you do you notice? Did

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Speaker 1: you really think about it? I went for the music,

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Speaker 1: And while sometimes I went places where I felt like

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Speaker 1: when I would walk in, I would feel like, hmm,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if I belong here, But then as soon

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Speaker 1: as the music would start, my relationship to the music

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Speaker 1: and the rest of the audience relationship to the music

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Speaker 1: was the same. So I felt camaraderie in terms of

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Speaker 1: musical taste and fandom. But you what's interesting is that

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Speaker 1: your career is defined by an indifference to boundaries, right.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like you're completely uninterested in the kind of

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Speaker 1: genres other people set up, And I'm just curious. Was

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Speaker 1: that there from the very beginning? Yeah, music was always music,

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Speaker 1: and I always liked a wide variety. I was like

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Speaker 1: James Brown and the Talking Heads and Barry White, the Beatles.

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Speaker 1: When you toured with the Beasties and Madonna. Did you

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Speaker 1: like Madonna's music? It was probably poppy for my taste

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Speaker 1: at that time. Yeah, Yeah, I tended to like more edgy,

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Speaker 1: more edgy things like hip hop, punk, rock, heavy metal. Parenthetically,

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Speaker 1: did you guys all hang out together? We did? Man,

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Speaker 1: I wish I had it a fly on a wall

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Speaker 1: for that. So you're like, how long did the two

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Speaker 1: go on? I remember it being a summer. But oh

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Speaker 1: but what I didn't get to in the story was

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Speaker 1: I got an ear infection and had to stop had

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Speaker 1: to stop touring. And if it wasn't for that, I

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Speaker 1: probably would have kept doing it. But in reality it

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Speaker 1: was I think it was sort of the universe stepping

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Speaker 1: in saying, you know, you belong in the recording studio,

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Speaker 1: and it felt right, like it felt more right for me.

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Speaker 1: I was never a good traveler. I was better being

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Speaker 1: in one place. You weren't but you on that tooy,

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Speaker 1: you weren't playing. I was the DJ. Oh you were

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Speaker 1: the DJ. Yeah? Oh I see, yeah, I was the

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Speaker 1: DJ in the group. Yeah yeah, oh that's oh. I know.

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Speaker 1: I had forgotten that fact. And we got to play.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we played at Madison Square Guarden, we played

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Speaker 1: at Radio City Musical. It was unbelievable. I mean for

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Speaker 1: a kid growing up in New York getting to play

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Speaker 1: in the places that you maybe twenty one, yeah, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, you're just out of NYU, still in NYU. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so maybe even younger. Yeah, in nineteen living in NYU dorm.

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Speaker 1: Are you going to class? Are you? I didn't take

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Speaker 1: any classes before three in the afternoon because I knew

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't wake up. Yeah, how do you have time

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Speaker 1: to take classes when you're are you out every night?

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Speaker 1: Out every night? And I would go to these clubs

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Speaker 1: like Nagrill and the Roxy and see what was going

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Speaker 1: on there, and the records that were coming out didn't

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Speaker 1: reflect hip hop. Hip Hop was a whole interactive culture

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Speaker 1: and the DJ. The reason in the Deaf Jam logo

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Speaker 1: the DJ is big is because the DJ was a

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Speaker 1: key piece of the hip hop world, but the records

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Speaker 1: at the time didn't reflect that. The records at the

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Speaker 1: time were a band playing and a guy rapping. But

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Speaker 1: if you went to a hip hop club, you saw

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Speaker 1: a guy DJing and cutting up records and scratching and

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Speaker 1: guys rapping and sort of the interaction between that was

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Speaker 1: the version of the hip hop band was the DJ

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Speaker 1: and the MC. So really the goal of making records

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Speaker 1: was more almost like a documentarian of like, I'd go

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Speaker 1: to these clubs, I'd hear this incredible music. Then I

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Speaker 1: would buy the records and they wouldn't be anything like it.

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Speaker 1: And just from the fan point of view of wanting

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Speaker 1: records that sounded like what I heard at the club,

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Speaker 1: I started making them. What in your mind, is that

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Speaker 1: is the first great true hip hop record or one

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Speaker 1: of the first Yeah, I would say run DMC, Sucker MCS,

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Speaker 1: that's probably the best hip hop record. They were rap

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Speaker 1: records before that, but that was maybe the first hip

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Speaker 1: hop record you know, in that era, I had a

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Speaker 1: jade tree in my dorm room which I which I dubbed,

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Speaker 1: which I named run DM Tree. Wow, that's just how

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Speaker 1: that's how far from the mainstream we were in in

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Speaker 1: Toronto in nineteen eighty the U and I had all

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Speaker 1: I rewrote the lyrics of the song to be all

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Speaker 1: about my jade tree. J trees are lucky. You're supposed

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Speaker 1: to be lucky. Really. Yeah, we'll be back with more

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Speaker 1: broken record after this. If we were to make a

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Speaker 1: musical biography of Rick Rubin in which we list all

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Speaker 1: of the transformative songs music you worked on over the

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Speaker 1: course of your life, tell me the next one, what's

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Speaker 1: the next song? That kind of opens up your sense

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Speaker 1: of what's possible musically as a listener. As a listener

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Speaker 1: and also as a producer, I can say another one

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Speaker 1: that was meaningful was before there was a group called

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Speaker 1: Public Enemy. Chuck d had a radio show and the

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Speaker 1: theme song from his radio show was called Public Enemy

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Speaker 1: Number one, and that's what ended up being what the

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Speaker 1: band was based on. But when we first heard that

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Speaker 1: little minute long promo for his radio show, something that

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Speaker 1: didn't sound like anything else. I think another key piece

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Speaker 1: in the story of the music that we were making

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Speaker 1: at the time was walked this way. Was it really

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Speaker 1: bridged a gap for people who didn't understand hip hop,

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Speaker 1: and that was really the purpose of doing it. People

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Speaker 1: at the time didn't think hip hop was even music,

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Speaker 1: and the idea was if we could find a song

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Speaker 1: that was familiar, that was very close to hip hop

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Speaker 1: and could be given a hip hop treatment, that it

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Speaker 1: would help people bridge the gap. But what was it

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Speaker 1: about that particular song by Aerosmith that made you think

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Speaker 1: it was appropriate for this kind of treatment. It's lyrically

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Speaker 1: it's very close to a rap record already. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you listen to the original Aerosmith version, the way

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Speaker 1: Steven does the vocals, it's essentially a rap record. And

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Speaker 1: that was the key. It was like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: music that people are familiar with, that they grew up liking,

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Speaker 1: and now here's this other music that's similar to it,

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Speaker 1: but they don't get it at all. If we could

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Speaker 1: just point to this connection, maybe the lights will go off.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean when you say that it's essentially

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Speaker 1: a hip hop record in a way lyrically what does

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Speaker 1: that mean? The way the song works is built on

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Speaker 1: a rhyme scheme and phrasing more than melody. Most hip

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Speaker 1: hop is based on a rhyme scheme more than melody.

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Speaker 1: That's really the big change is like the difference between

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Speaker 1: singing and rapping is rapping is words in a rhythm

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00:21:41,956 --> 00:21:48,436
Speaker 1: that are catchy because of the rhythm, whereas most music

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Speaker 1: up until rapping, it's based on the melody. And that's

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00:21:53,476 --> 00:21:57,516
Speaker 1: really the difference. Yeah, and the Aerosmith song is rooted

340
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Speaker 1: in the phrasing. Sometimes drawing those connections are the things

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Speaker 1: that help an audience understand what's happening. Is your photo?

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Speaker 1: Can you play it just a little bit of the original?

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Speaker 1: I want to kind of hear that what you're talking about. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so this is the Aerosmith version. Yeah, that much. You'd

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Speaker 1: hear in every hip hop club what I just played

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Speaker 1: you that that was an accepted norm, norm in the

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Speaker 1: vocabulary of hip hop. Yeah, nobody knew there was a

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Speaker 1: song after that in hip hop. Yeah, all they knew

349
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Speaker 1: was just that much. Just that much. So if you

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Speaker 1: had two turntables, you would play that much on one

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Speaker 1: turntable and you'd get the second one ready in the

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Speaker 1: same spot, and you would continue just that much, and

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Speaker 1: then a rapper would rap over the top, and they

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Speaker 1: would make up freestyle raps of what they wanted, usually bragging.

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Speaker 1: So that's what most rap was at that time. So

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Speaker 1: the idea of asking run DMC to learn the words

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Speaker 1: to an Aerosmith song was a very foreign concept at

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Speaker 1: the time. There had been no cover songs done in

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Speaker 1: the hip hop world, and they thought it was a

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Speaker 1: terrible idea, and they thought it was like country lyrics.

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Speaker 1: I remember them thinking, it's like, these are terrible lyrics.

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Speaker 1: And how long did it take for them to come

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Speaker 1: around after the Recker came out. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: they ever came around until it was really successful. Like

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Speaker 1: I can remember even when we recorded the vocals, they

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Speaker 1: were sort of not into it. Can we hear a

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Speaker 1: little bit of the vocals and then explain to me

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Speaker 1: why you say there was a hip hop vocals? Yeah? So, now, okay,

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Speaker 1: So we'll listen to the Aerosmith version first. Not very now,

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Speaker 1: so that phrasing is very hip hop, very yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's as close to a hip hop record without being

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Speaker 1: a hip hop record as can be. Wait, so we

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Speaker 1: so we should we listen to the hip so we

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Speaker 1: listen to Ren dmc version. Is it's not so different? Yeah,

375
00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:12,076
Speaker 1: it's not very different. Do you have a fan? Do

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Speaker 1: you prefer one to the other? Uh? I guess I

377
00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:20,956
Speaker 1: probably have a preference for the original, just because growing

378
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Speaker 1: up it was in my vocabulary. What did what did

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Speaker 1: Aerosmith say about it? Do you know? They loved it?

380
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Speaker 1: They loved it. Yeah, and they were always into street

381
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Speaker 1: culture and they always wanted to be part of street culture,

382
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Speaker 1: so for them it was really exciting. Yeah. And then

383
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Speaker 1: you said you would have meetings with people who understood

384
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Speaker 1: the popularity hip up but didn't understo didn't accept it

385
00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:48,716
Speaker 1: as music? What does that mean? That was the words.

386
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Speaker 1: Those were the words that I heard, and it was

387
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Speaker 1: so unusual to me. I can remember a specific quote

388
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Speaker 1: from a record company executive at the time, which is,

389
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Speaker 1: what do you attribute the success of this? I mean,

390
00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:03,156
Speaker 1: we know it's not music, and they were saying this

391
00:26:03,236 --> 00:26:08,756
Speaker 1: as like fans, Yeah, and they just didn't they didn't

392
00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:12,516
Speaker 1: see it, didn't. I mean, I think a lot of

393
00:26:12,516 --> 00:26:15,556
Speaker 1: people reacted that way. A lot of people didn't see

394
00:26:15,556 --> 00:26:17,116
Speaker 1: it as music in the same way that a lot

395
00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:19,236
Speaker 1: of people from the jazz eor It didn't see rock

396
00:26:19,276 --> 00:26:24,276
Speaker 1: and rollers music. It's the same. It's those revolutions really

397
00:26:24,356 --> 00:26:30,676
Speaker 1: changed things. What it helped do was open up hip

398
00:26:30,676 --> 00:26:34,876
Speaker 1: hop music to the suburbs and being a suburban kid.

399
00:26:35,636 --> 00:26:40,476
Speaker 1: That was in some ways the intention. It's also interesting

400
00:26:40,476 --> 00:26:44,756
Speaker 1: because it wasn't done for the sake of popularity at all.

401
00:26:45,196 --> 00:26:48,756
Speaker 1: It was done for the sake of explaining something. You know,

402
00:26:48,756 --> 00:26:51,436
Speaker 1: it wasn't done. I didn't. I didn't think of it

403
00:26:51,476 --> 00:26:55,276
Speaker 1: as a commercial idea at all. That wasn't not at all.

404
00:26:55,516 --> 00:26:57,836
Speaker 1: It wasn't about that at all, because what do you

405
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Speaker 1: think of I mean, just to use myself as an example,

406
00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:07,516
Speaker 1: I am this kid in rural Ontario. I am listening

407
00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:12,756
Speaker 1: to basically British New Way of music on a scratchy

408
00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:15,516
Speaker 1: that's coming in from a station in Toronto, which doesn't

409
00:27:15,516 --> 00:27:19,236
Speaker 1: really you know, the signal is really weak. I know

410
00:27:19,436 --> 00:27:24,436
Speaker 1: nothing about hip hop, and that song like it's like, oh,

411
00:27:25,116 --> 00:27:28,276
Speaker 1: you know, wow, like just kind of you know, that's

412
00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:30,236
Speaker 1: when the door. I mean, I imagined that, Mike, is

413
00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:34,316
Speaker 1: that your first memory of hip hop? I think? So wow?

414
00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:36,596
Speaker 1: So then, I mean I was aware of it, but

415
00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:39,356
Speaker 1: I didn't The reason I'm so interesting point is I

416
00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:41,796
Speaker 1: am exactly in the position of that whoever it was

417
00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:44,316
Speaker 1: says it's not music. It just didn't register for me.

418
00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:47,196
Speaker 1: I didn't understand it. I no place to put it.

419
00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:52,236
Speaker 1: I was, you know, I was interested in Elvis Costello

420
00:27:52,276 --> 00:27:54,636
Speaker 1: and the Clash or whatever. It wasn't That's what I thought.

421
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:59,436
Speaker 1: That's actually another interesting aspect of this, which is that

422
00:27:59,596 --> 00:28:03,876
Speaker 1: ultimately there is a race issue involved. Also in the

423
00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:09,436
Speaker 1: same way that Elvis was essentially making music that Chuck

424
00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:12,676
Speaker 1: Berry and Little Richard had made before, but because he

425
00:28:12,796 --> 00:28:19,516
Speaker 1: was white, it got mainstream popularity. And to some degree,

426
00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:25,316
Speaker 1: what we did with the Basti Boys wasn't so different

427
00:28:25,596 --> 00:28:27,836
Speaker 1: than what we were doing with Run DMC. With the

428
00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:29,436
Speaker 1: b c's was not so different than what we did

429
00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:33,996
Speaker 1: with Run DMC or El COOLJ or Public Enemy, but

430
00:28:34,116 --> 00:28:36,876
Speaker 1: the fact that they were white allowed it to spread

431
00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:40,636
Speaker 1: in a way that was harder to do otherwise. Again,

432
00:28:40,836 --> 00:28:44,756
Speaker 1: this was not an intentional This wasn't premeditated at all,

433
00:28:44,876 --> 00:28:49,476
Speaker 1: just sort of happened. But it was interesting to see that, like, oh,

434
00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:53,316
Speaker 1: they're more the audience is more accepting of the Beastie

435
00:28:53,316 --> 00:28:58,356
Speaker 1: Boys than Run DMC. Yeah, well, cap people permission to

436
00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:03,076
Speaker 1: listen in a certain sense. And then interestingly it ended

437
00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:05,196
Speaker 1: up having a good effect on hip hop in general,

438
00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:08,036
Speaker 1: which was the Beastie sort of opened the door for

439
00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:12,316
Speaker 1: people who made not have been interested in this niche

440
00:29:12,356 --> 00:29:16,076
Speaker 1: black music. But then once they were in the door,

441
00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:19,196
Speaker 1: then they wanted all the niche black music. So it did.

442
00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:23,636
Speaker 1: It did help the revolution to happen. Yeah, yeah, Do

443
00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:27,236
Speaker 1: you remember the reaction of run DMC themselves to this

444
00:29:27,356 --> 00:29:29,996
Speaker 1: idea to work this way? Yeah? Yeah, they were not

445
00:29:30,076 --> 00:29:34,076
Speaker 1: into it. They were not into it. Really, Yeah, did

446
00:29:34,156 --> 00:29:36,676
Speaker 1: you did you talk them into it? I tried to

447
00:29:36,676 --> 00:29:40,436
Speaker 1: talk them into it unsuccessfully. Russell really talked them into it.

448
00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:47,276
Speaker 1: Russell said, just do what Rick says. We're going to

449
00:29:47,316 --> 00:29:53,396
Speaker 1: take a little break and be right back. I'm back

450
00:29:53,436 --> 00:29:56,516
Speaker 1: with Rick, and I asked him about the origins of

451
00:29:56,556 --> 00:30:00,476
Speaker 1: one of his most famous collaborations, Rick Rubin, Jewish Kid

452
00:30:00,476 --> 00:30:04,876
Speaker 1: from Long Island and the Man in Black. How did

453
00:30:04,876 --> 00:30:07,436
Speaker 1: that happen? By the way, did Johnny Cash thing? It's

454
00:30:07,476 --> 00:30:10,676
Speaker 1: also unusual. The way it happened was I had worked

455
00:30:10,716 --> 00:30:13,756
Speaker 1: with almost all the artists I had produced up until

456
00:30:13,756 --> 00:30:16,996
Speaker 1: that time were young artists for first time artists, and

457
00:30:17,036 --> 00:30:20,996
Speaker 1: all the artists I signed were debut artists, and I

458
00:30:21,036 --> 00:30:25,716
Speaker 1: thought it would be a fun challenge to make a

459
00:30:25,796 --> 00:30:29,476
Speaker 1: really good album with a great artist who maybe hasn't

460
00:30:29,476 --> 00:30:31,796
Speaker 1: done great work for a while. So it was more

461
00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:36,196
Speaker 1: like a It was like a puzzle to solve. And

462
00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:39,276
Speaker 1: when I thought about the different great artists who weren't

463
00:30:39,276 --> 00:30:41,516
Speaker 1: doing great work, the first one that came up was

464
00:30:41,556 --> 00:30:45,436
Speaker 1: Johnny Cash. Just thought he's I mean, he's Johnny Cash.

465
00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:50,036
Speaker 1: You listen to much country, not really, so you think

466
00:30:50,076 --> 00:30:52,236
Speaker 1: of him, and then you so what comes next? I ask,

467
00:30:52,356 --> 00:30:54,556
Speaker 1: what's going on with him? Is he on a record label?

468
00:30:55,036 --> 00:30:56,956
Speaker 1: He's playing At that time, he was playing in like

469
00:30:57,836 --> 00:31:03,556
Speaker 1: small dinner theaters around and following that love Yeah, and

470
00:31:03,676 --> 00:31:05,796
Speaker 1: he'd been dropped from his label. It was sort of

471
00:31:05,876 --> 00:31:09,756
Speaker 1: like he had been discarded by the industry at that time.

472
00:31:10,436 --> 00:31:14,236
Speaker 1: And I think part of the reason that he was

473
00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:18,356
Speaker 1: open to working with me wasn't because he believed in

474
00:31:18,436 --> 00:31:22,676
Speaker 1: me or believed in the idea. I think he was

475
00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:26,516
Speaker 1: excited that somebody cared enough to want to do something

476
00:31:26,556 --> 00:31:30,316
Speaker 1: because nobody else did. Had he heard of you? I

477
00:31:30,356 --> 00:31:33,036
Speaker 1: don't know if he had, I don't think so. I

478
00:31:33,036 --> 00:31:35,156
Speaker 1: don't know why he would have. Did he ever listen

479
00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:38,196
Speaker 1: to hip hop? No? No, So you're just you're basically

480
00:31:38,276 --> 00:31:40,876
Speaker 1: co calling him, I mean through his people, I'm guessing. Yeah.

481
00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:44,076
Speaker 1: And we met backstage at a dinner theater in Orange County,

482
00:31:44,676 --> 00:31:46,796
Speaker 1: and I remember it being awkward because both of us

483
00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:49,516
Speaker 1: are pretty quiet. But I remember sitting on the couch

484
00:31:49,556 --> 00:31:53,036
Speaker 1: for a long time and not really talking but feeling

485
00:31:53,516 --> 00:31:56,836
Speaker 1: even though it was awkward, I felt comfortable with him. Yeah,

486
00:31:57,516 --> 00:32:00,116
Speaker 1: And there was no idea of what it would be

487
00:32:00,156 --> 00:32:01,756
Speaker 1: at the time. It was just sort of, let's go

488
00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:05,076
Speaker 1: on this journey, let's do something and find what's great.

489
00:32:06,116 --> 00:32:09,436
Speaker 1: Did he have? Did he who was a one who

490
00:32:09,436 --> 00:32:14,716
Speaker 1: first sort of suggested the idea of doing these stripped

491
00:32:14,716 --> 00:32:17,596
Speaker 1: down covers? Is that your idea? It wasn't. It wasn't.

492
00:32:18,156 --> 00:32:23,196
Speaker 1: It started where we were looking for songs and we

493
00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:25,636
Speaker 1: would get together, and so in terms of finding the

494
00:32:25,676 --> 00:32:28,796
Speaker 1: material that best fit his voice, we would do these

495
00:32:28,836 --> 00:32:34,236
Speaker 1: demos basically solo demos, But there was no thought that

496
00:32:34,236 --> 00:32:36,556
Speaker 1: that's what the record would be like. It was more

497
00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:44,396
Speaker 1: the first stage of this expedition was figuring out the

498
00:32:44,436 --> 00:32:47,396
Speaker 1: material that was going to work. Give me an example

499
00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:49,396
Speaker 1: of a song that doesn't fit his voice and tell

500
00:32:49,436 --> 00:32:52,556
Speaker 1: me why it doesn't. There's a handful of things. One

501
00:32:52,676 --> 00:32:56,076
Speaker 1: is he has to feel an affinity for it. If

502
00:32:56,076 --> 00:33:01,996
Speaker 1: he doesn't feel it, it's much harder. Second is subject

503
00:33:02,076 --> 00:33:06,796
Speaker 1: matter would have to make sense for In his case,

504
00:33:06,836 --> 00:33:10,476
Speaker 1: it was different because there's Johnny Cash, the human being,

505
00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:13,476
Speaker 1: and then there's Johnny Cash, the mythical man in black.

506
00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:18,356
Speaker 1: And my goal was to make music that always fit

507
00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:21,916
Speaker 1: the mythical man in black. Now, if it fit Johnny

508
00:33:21,956 --> 00:33:24,596
Speaker 1: Cash the human being as well, that's fine, but it

509
00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:27,156
Speaker 1: didn't have to. It was more important that it was

510
00:33:29,356 --> 00:33:34,356
Speaker 1: this sort of looming cartoon figure of who he was. That.

511
00:33:34,836 --> 00:33:36,476
Speaker 1: But that's sort of interesting. I thought you were going

512
00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:38,396
Speaker 1: to say the exact opposite. I thought you were going

513
00:33:38,476 --> 00:33:40,796
Speaker 1: to say, we have been joined by a dog by

514
00:33:40,836 --> 00:33:43,036
Speaker 1: the way. I thought you were going to say, my

515
00:33:43,076 --> 00:33:47,316
Speaker 1: goal was to make music to fit the human human. No,

516
00:33:47,956 --> 00:33:50,196
Speaker 1: he had even done that along the way, not always

517
00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:53,196
Speaker 1: so successfully. And I think it really went back to,

518
00:33:53,276 --> 00:33:56,676
Speaker 1: like I think of the great Johnny Cash moments, I

519
00:33:56,716 --> 00:33:58,716
Speaker 1: shot a man in Reno just to watch him die,

520
00:33:59,516 --> 00:34:03,556
Speaker 1: this sort of outlaw figure. Now, Johnny Cash in real

521
00:34:03,556 --> 00:34:05,396
Speaker 1: life never shot a man in Reno just to watch

522
00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:08,756
Speaker 1: him die, but the mythical man in black did and

523
00:34:08,876 --> 00:34:13,156
Speaker 1: we responded. So it was more that it was more

524
00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:23,316
Speaker 1: like these sort of brooding, heavy, introspective or revelatory thoughts,

525
00:34:24,116 --> 00:34:26,596
Speaker 1: because in real life Johnny also had a great sense

526
00:34:26,596 --> 00:34:28,516
Speaker 1: of humor. I didn't want to do any funny songs.

527
00:34:29,036 --> 00:34:30,876
Speaker 1: I didn't want that to be part of the I

528
00:34:30,956 --> 00:34:33,076
Speaker 1: wanted to really focus. You don't want to do my

529
00:34:33,156 --> 00:34:35,716
Speaker 1: Name is Sue No, even though that's a great one.

530
00:34:35,836 --> 00:34:38,756
Speaker 1: Even though it's a great one, But I wanted to

531
00:34:38,956 --> 00:34:43,916
Speaker 1: really focus the story on this mythical presence. And also

532
00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:46,796
Speaker 1: because now that I think about it, if he's playing

533
00:34:46,836 --> 00:34:50,236
Speaker 1: Dinner Theater in Orange County, the myth has fallen away.

534
00:34:50,316 --> 00:34:53,156
Speaker 1: He's sort of hit rock bottom. There's no you're trying

535
00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:55,796
Speaker 1: to build him back up. What do you consider to

536
00:34:55,836 --> 00:34:58,596
Speaker 1: be the best of the songs you did with him?

537
00:34:58,636 --> 00:35:01,076
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a favorite, but there's a lot

538
00:35:01,076 --> 00:35:03,476
Speaker 1: of good ones. One of the ones we did that

539
00:35:03,516 --> 00:35:07,276
Speaker 1: I really liked was the Mercy Seat in the Cave

540
00:35:07,436 --> 00:35:12,156
Speaker 1: song in credit. Tell me what it is you heard

541
00:35:12,196 --> 00:35:14,076
Speaker 1: in the original that made you think it would work

542
00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:18,196
Speaker 1: for Johnny Cash. It's just the lyrics, just the lyrics,

543
00:35:18,236 --> 00:35:20,956
Speaker 1: just the lyrics. We have this mythical man in black.

544
00:35:21,556 --> 00:35:24,836
Speaker 1: What are stories he can tell that you'd believe coming

545
00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:27,516
Speaker 1: from that guy? And this was one sort of like

546
00:35:27,556 --> 00:35:35,836
Speaker 1: this biblical heavy heavy story. It's funny. It's the third

547
00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:38,716
Speaker 1: time you've used the word heavy, and you're absolutely right.

548
00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:42,236
Speaker 1: There's there's a heaviness to all of those records. That's

549
00:35:42,316 --> 00:35:45,796
Speaker 1: kind of it's so unusual. I don't associate that word

550
00:35:45,836 --> 00:35:50,436
Speaker 1: heavy with popular music, no, and certainly not with country

551
00:35:50,516 --> 00:35:54,676
Speaker 1: music or folk music, which is essentially the Johnny records

552
00:35:54,716 --> 00:35:58,436
Speaker 1: are sort of folk records. Yeah, where some of the

553
00:35:58,476 --> 00:36:03,076
Speaker 1: songs that were like the Mercy Seed or the Nine

554
00:36:03,076 --> 00:36:08,996
Speaker 1: Inch Nails song. Yeah, it's great, it's really great. I

555
00:36:09,276 --> 00:36:11,996
Speaker 1: just love the I love the way the song is

556
00:36:12,356 --> 00:36:14,956
Speaker 1: just transformed. When the idea of an old man singing

557
00:36:14,996 --> 00:36:18,356
Speaker 1: it the end of his life changed. Everything changes, every

558
00:36:18,516 --> 00:36:22,476
Speaker 1: changes everything. Is that? What so with Hurt? Is that

559
00:36:22,636 --> 00:36:25,636
Speaker 1: what you were thinking when you I'm assuming you brought

560
00:36:25,636 --> 00:36:27,436
Speaker 1: that song to Johnny and you were like, oh my god,

561
00:36:27,476 --> 00:36:30,676
Speaker 1: when a sixty something year old man sings this, it's

562
00:36:30,716 --> 00:36:33,476
Speaker 1: a different It's a totally different song, a totally different

563
00:36:33,516 --> 00:36:37,716
Speaker 1: song and much more hopeless like it's oh it's bleak. Yeah,

564
00:36:37,756 --> 00:36:40,276
Speaker 1: you don't. Usually by the time you're that age, you

565
00:36:40,396 --> 00:36:44,916
Speaker 1: found resolution. So to have sort of twenty year old

566
00:36:45,036 --> 00:36:48,636
Speaker 1: angst in your sixties or seventies is not angst anymore.

567
00:36:48,716 --> 00:36:53,876
Speaker 1: It's despair. It's flat out despair. It's brutal. Did it

568
00:36:53,916 --> 00:36:58,036
Speaker 1: affect you emotionally to do You're sitting in the in

569
00:36:58,116 --> 00:37:02,076
Speaker 1: close proximity to this mythical man singing these songs with

570
00:37:02,156 --> 00:37:06,116
Speaker 1: an unbelievable emotional weight to them. Are you emerging at

571
00:37:06,116 --> 00:37:10,156
Speaker 1: the end of the day like devastated? You go and

572
00:37:10,196 --> 00:37:12,556
Speaker 1: like curl up in a ball, and you're pretty excited

573
00:37:12,716 --> 00:37:16,316
Speaker 1: because when you hear something a really good version of

574
00:37:16,316 --> 00:37:20,516
Speaker 1: what it is, it's I wouldn't go into the emotion

575
00:37:20,636 --> 00:37:25,636
Speaker 1: of it so much as the excitement of seeing something

576
00:37:25,676 --> 00:37:30,076
Speaker 1: come together that has this power. Yeah, did you ever

577
00:37:30,116 --> 00:37:34,516
Speaker 1: talk to who's the Nunes? Oh? TRENTR I did. I

578
00:37:34,516 --> 00:37:37,596
Speaker 1: actually sent it to him when we finished. I don't

579
00:37:37,636 --> 00:37:40,356
Speaker 1: think he liked it so much when he first heard it. Yeah,

580
00:37:40,916 --> 00:37:44,276
Speaker 1: then Mark Romannick made the video for it, and then

581
00:37:44,316 --> 00:37:48,036
Speaker 1: when he saw the video, Trent's like, oh, I see

582
00:37:48,076 --> 00:37:51,316
Speaker 1: what this is. I think he was too close at first.

583
00:37:51,596 --> 00:37:53,796
Speaker 1: And it was just odd hearing someone else. I can

584
00:37:53,836 --> 00:37:58,636
Speaker 1: remember we covered a Beck song and I remember playing

585
00:37:58,636 --> 00:38:01,396
Speaker 1: it for Beck and I remember him saying, this is

586
00:38:01,436 --> 00:38:05,596
Speaker 1: the first time I've ever heard anybody sing my lyrics

587
00:38:05,636 --> 00:38:09,236
Speaker 1: besides me, and it's Johnny Cash. He was like, so oh.

588
00:38:10,276 --> 00:38:13,556
Speaker 1: It was just so mind blowing because he was probably

589
00:38:13,636 --> 00:38:16,956
Speaker 1: twenty two at the time, twenty one at the time. Yeah,

590
00:38:17,076 --> 00:38:20,356
Speaker 1: I would think it must be so thrilling to understand

591
00:38:20,356 --> 00:38:22,716
Speaker 1: that you're what you think of as a very deeply

592
00:38:22,756 --> 00:38:25,796
Speaker 1: personal song has a life outside of you that it

593
00:38:26,436 --> 00:38:28,916
Speaker 1: you know, it can have an alternate meaning in a

594
00:38:28,956 --> 00:38:32,116
Speaker 1: different universe when sung by someone from a different that's

595
00:38:32,116 --> 00:38:34,996
Speaker 1: got to be like so interesting. What's really interesting? I

596
00:38:35,076 --> 00:38:36,636
Speaker 1: want to go to this idea that we started talking

597
00:38:36,636 --> 00:38:40,196
Speaker 1: about in the beginning, about your sort of indifference to boundaries,

598
00:38:40,316 --> 00:38:46,276
Speaker 1: to musical boundaries, and that clearly allows you to kind

599
00:38:46,316 --> 00:38:49,196
Speaker 1: of move. You don't get defined by your relationship with

600
00:38:49,276 --> 00:38:51,716
Speaker 1: hip hop. You end up doing well. I do and

601
00:38:51,836 --> 00:38:56,356
Speaker 1: I don't. So from a creative standpoint, I don't, But

602
00:38:56,516 --> 00:39:01,316
Speaker 1: from an outside standpoint, anytime I tried to do something

603
00:39:01,356 --> 00:39:03,996
Speaker 1: different than what I did before, there was always great

604
00:39:04,036 --> 00:39:06,676
Speaker 1: resistance every step of the way, tell me a little

605
00:39:06,676 --> 00:39:11,396
Speaker 1: bit about that. Whoever I was in business with major

606
00:39:11,476 --> 00:39:15,236
Speaker 1: label wise or they just wanted more of the thing

607
00:39:15,316 --> 00:39:18,876
Speaker 1: that happened before that was successful. And every step of

608
00:39:18,916 --> 00:39:22,636
Speaker 1: the way, it was just a struggle, and I was

609
00:39:22,636 --> 00:39:25,876
Speaker 1: told often that I couldn't do what I was doing,

610
00:39:26,676 --> 00:39:31,596
Speaker 1: whether it was Slayer or Johnny Cash or whatever it was.

611
00:39:31,636 --> 00:39:35,156
Speaker 1: It was just like the idea of working on different

612
00:39:35,236 --> 00:39:38,116
Speaker 1: kinds of music was really frowned upon for some reason.

613
00:39:38,156 --> 00:39:39,956
Speaker 1: I don't know what. What's so weird, of course, is

614
00:39:39,956 --> 00:39:42,556
Speaker 1: that the very reason you were you were so good

615
00:39:42,716 --> 00:39:45,356
Speaker 1: at working in the hip hop world was that you

616
00:39:45,436 --> 00:39:50,156
Speaker 1: were already crossing a boundary. And I think most people

617
00:39:50,476 --> 00:39:53,276
Speaker 1: who make the best music, I think that's the case,

618
00:39:53,476 --> 00:39:59,516
Speaker 1: Like people who grow up listening to electronic dance music

619
00:40:00,116 --> 00:40:05,636
Speaker 1: and then making electronic dance music tend to make more

620
00:40:05,756 --> 00:40:10,516
Speaker 1: mediocre dance music, whereas people who come from some other

621
00:40:10,636 --> 00:40:15,276
Speaker 1: form of music and crossing to dance music make much

622
00:40:15,276 --> 00:40:18,676
Speaker 1: more interesting dance music. Yeah, it's just a perspective. It's

623
00:40:18,716 --> 00:40:22,956
Speaker 1: just a wider perspective. Rick and I talked for a

624
00:40:22,956 --> 00:40:26,516
Speaker 1: lot longer, and we'll talk again. We've only scratched the surface.

625
00:40:27,116 --> 00:40:30,596
Speaker 1: Whether we'll meet again at Shango. Law is another matter,

626
00:40:31,076 --> 00:40:36,996
Speaker 1: I hope so. Coming up on Broken Record, many many

627
00:40:37,036 --> 00:40:43,036
Speaker 1: more new episodes, including now Rogers, Rufus Wainwright, country music

628
00:40:43,156 --> 00:40:46,916
Speaker 1: songwriting greats Don Henry, Don Schlitz and Bobby bradickin Conversation,

629
00:40:47,756 --> 00:40:52,396
Speaker 1: heavy metal demigod Dave Hill. This is the first new

630
00:40:52,396 --> 00:40:56,116
Speaker 1: show from Pushkin Industries, the new audio studio I started

631
00:40:56,116 --> 00:40:58,836
Speaker 1: with Jacob Weisberg and named in honor of the great

632
00:40:58,916 --> 00:41:03,876
Speaker 1: Russian Biracial polymath and poet Alexander Pushkin, who is our

633
00:41:03,876 --> 00:41:07,636
Speaker 1: patron saint and whose name we think sounds really cool.

634
00:41:09,836 --> 00:41:13,076
Speaker 1: Coming up from Pushkin a whole new show from Michael

635
00:41:13,156 --> 00:41:16,476
Speaker 1: Lewis called Against the Rules, not to mention, another season

636
00:41:16,596 --> 00:41:20,916
Speaker 1: of revisionist history. Broken Record is produced by Me Label

637
00:41:21,116 --> 00:41:25,316
Speaker 1: and Jason Gambrell, with help from Bruce Headlam, Jaquita Pascal,

638
00:41:25,836 --> 00:41:29,636
Speaker 1: Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, Justin Richmond, Jacob Weisberg, and of

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Speaker 1: course Rick Rubin. This show is brought to you by

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Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Timer. You a really forgot to do?

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00:41:39,276 --> 00:41:41,876
Speaker 1: I forgot to I wrote a whole rap back then

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Speaker 1: about the Jade Tree. I'm a sucker. Jade tree can't

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Speaker 1: grow much higher. All you other jade tree is gonna

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Speaker 1: call me sire, and I forgot I was gonna say it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, this is too stupid. I can't

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Speaker 1: break up Rick's flow with this guy. I'm an idiot anyway,