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Speaker 1: Coming up on you need Therapy.

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Speaker 2: Someone who grew up in a home where there was

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Speaker 2: abandonment or neglect has a higher tendency to love the

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Speaker 2: feeling of being chased and anxiously attached tend to have

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Speaker 2: that abandonment under lying, so when they're being pursued, it

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Speaker 2: feels like you're the only one in the world that exists.

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Speaker 2: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 2: a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know

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Speaker 2: something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's

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Speaker 2: probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die

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Speaker 2: before you die, then you can really live. There's a

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Speaker 2: wisdom at death's door. I thought it was insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't know what to do because there was

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Speaker 2: no Internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel

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Speaker 2: like everything is hard.

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Speaker 3: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat I'm a human first

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Speaker 3: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 3: you to conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 3: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the

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Speaker 3: world around you. Welcome to you need Therapy. Okay, guys,

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to a new episode of.

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast.

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Speaker 3: I am really excited, and I know I say that

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Speaker 3: a lot, I really mean it today because I have

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Speaker 3: another licensed mental health counselor here, Jessica Baum, and we

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Speaker 3: are going to talk about something that I believe is

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Speaker 3: one of y'all's favorite topics talk about on this podcast,

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Speaker 3: and that is attachment. Jessica wrote a book called Anxiously Attached,

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Speaker 3: which I think a lot of you are going to

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Speaker 3: immediately be attracted to and be curious about, and so

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Speaker 3: I'm excited to have you to dig into some of

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Speaker 3: that and just attachment in general.

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Speaker 2: So welcome, Thank you so much for having me. I'm

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Speaker 2: excited for this conversation as well.

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Speaker 3: I like to start off these interviews giving our audience

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Speaker 3: like a chain, to build some trust with our guests,

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Speaker 3: since you might be new to a lot of them.

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Speaker 3: So can you start us off giving a little background,

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Speaker 3: What got you into what you're doing, what led you

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Speaker 3: to write this book, just kind of how you got

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Speaker 3: to where you are.

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Speaker 2: Sure I struggled with mental health issues, anxiety and depression

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Speaker 2: and relationship issues in my early twenties, and I actually

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Speaker 2: disclose a lot of that in the beginning of the book,

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty vulnerable, and you know, I was fascinated with

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Speaker 2: helping people who were suffering inside and you couldn't see it,

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Speaker 2: because I knew how real that was for me. So

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Speaker 2: I did a lot of my own personal work, and

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Speaker 2: I went to grad school to become a therapist, but

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Speaker 2: then I specialized a lot in family systems quote unquote

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Speaker 2: quote dependency. I don't like using that word. And I'm

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Speaker 2: a special relationship therapist called a model relationship therapist. So

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Speaker 2: I spent a couple of years studying the dynamics of relationships,

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Speaker 2: partly because I've struggled so much in my own person

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Speaker 2: relationships and have also helped heal and have done a

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Speaker 2: lot of my own healing work. So all of that

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Speaker 2: information and the success I was having in my private

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Speaker 2: practice for people who can afford therapy, I decided, well,

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Speaker 2: I want to create something for everyone so that everyone

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Speaker 2: can get some of this information. And that's why I

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Speaker 2: decided to create the book. When I was in the

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Speaker 2: hospital when I was nineteen, i read Facing Codependency, and

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Speaker 2: at the time that was a game changer for me

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Speaker 2: because I could identify with everything and it was so

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Speaker 2: comforting to read something and be like, Okay, finally I

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Speaker 2: know I'm not crazy, Like there's some answers here. And

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Speaker 2: I think codependency is a word that's been totally misused,

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Speaker 2: and by understanding interpersonal neurobiology and attachment, I really started

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Speaker 2: to understand, Okay, anxious attachment style has a lot of

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Speaker 2: these tendencies in them, and really codependency is just this

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Speaker 2: made up word when we're really talking about attachment issues.

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Speaker 2: So I started to really really dive into the research

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Speaker 2: and understand that and kind of provide myself with the

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Speaker 2: book that I also wanted. And when I was in

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Speaker 2: my twenties and thirties and struggling, so I started writing.

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Speaker 2: And that's a whole journey in itself that I won't

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Speaker 2: get into, but yeah, that's why I created this book

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Speaker 2: for that younger part of me and for people who

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Speaker 2: are curious and maybe don't have the resources to be

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Speaker 2: in therapy or are in therapy and can bring the

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Speaker 2: book into therapy. I actually encourage that a lot in

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Speaker 2: the book, so and to reach more people. It's in

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Speaker 2: eleven countries. It's doing really well, and it's reaching a

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Speaker 2: lot of people at this point, so I'm really happy.

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Speaker 3: I saw something on social media where somebody was posting

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Speaker 3: your book in a different language, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: that's amazing.

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Speaker 1: That has to be a huge.

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Speaker 3: Milestone for somebody who spent so much time writing something.

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Speaker 1: I think it's.

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Speaker 3: Interesting that you said the part about codependency in it

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Speaker 3: being like a made up word, and it also I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you feel this.

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Speaker 1: I know I feel this a lot.

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Speaker 3: That a lot of words, as mental health has been

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Speaker 3: more of a conversation, as therapy has become less stigmatized,

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Speaker 3: a lot of these words that have a meaning are

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Speaker 3: kind of being, you know, shifted and changed as more

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Speaker 3: people are using them. And I actually started this podcast

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Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen because I was like, this is not fair,

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Speaker 3: Like I get to teach all my clients about I

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Speaker 3: come from an attachment lens, so I get to teach

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Speaker 3: all my clients about this stuff and it blows their mind.

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Speaker 3: And it shouldn't just be for the people that can

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Speaker 3: afford a therapist or for the people that feel comfortable

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Speaker 3: going to a therapist, Like this should be information that

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Speaker 3: we all just get to know about ourselves. So I

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Speaker 3: love that's why you wrote the book, and I love

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Speaker 3: it I'm so grateful that attachment has been I don't

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Speaker 3: want to use the word popularized, but I'm going to

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Speaker 3: use it anyway because I don't have another word. But

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Speaker 3: it's become more popular and talked about, mainly on social media,

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Speaker 3: but also in our conversations with friends and family. And

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Speaker 3: because of that, I've also seen a lot of stuff

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Speaker 3: in passing where I'm like, I don't know if that's

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Speaker 3: what that means, and I don't know if that is

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Speaker 3: quite right. I see where that person might be going.

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Speaker 3: And so just so we can all start on like

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Speaker 3: an even playing field in this conversation, can you tell

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Speaker 3: us another like cliffs notes nutshell, that's like probably really

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Speaker 3: hard to do your version of kind of what attachment

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Speaker 3: theory is, maybe like the basic basic basics. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: need to we don't need to go through all because

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Speaker 3: it's the other thing. It's so nuanced that somebody's going

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Speaker 3: to have to read a book or have multiple conversations

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Speaker 3: with a professional to really understand the nuance.

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Speaker 1: All of it.

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Speaker 3: But can you give us a little bit of if

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Speaker 3: somebody was like, what is attachment theory? What would you

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Speaker 3: say to them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And maybe I can give a little bit of

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Speaker 2: what you're not going to hear out there.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Attachment theory obviously was created in the nineteen fifties and

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Speaker 2: has a lot of scientific research behind it. But the

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Speaker 2: way I look at it is when we're infants, when

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Speaker 2: we're in womb, when we're small, our relationship with our

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Speaker 2: primary caregiver and how they are attending to us up

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Speaker 2: creating our organs, our nervous systems, our patterns, our paradigm

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Speaker 2: for life. And so if we have primary caregivers that

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Speaker 2: are tuning really well and our present and our meeting

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Speaker 2: our needs most of the time there's this sixty six

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Speaker 2: percent of the time, then we grow up with a

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Speaker 2: secure base and a secure foundation. It doesn't mean that

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Speaker 2: we don't have issues in relationships. It's just we have

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Speaker 2: more inherent trust in the world, and a we don't

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Speaker 2: have such a big problem with abandonment or feeling smothered

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Speaker 2: in a relationship. We can move through relationship a little

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Speaker 2: bit easier. Then if we have parents that are struggling

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Speaker 2: themselves with their nervous systems and what's going on in

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Speaker 2: their world and intergenerational trauma and just are preoccupied, we

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Speaker 2: start to sense into that we embed patterns and adaptations

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Speaker 2: based on trying to stay in connection with our primary

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Speaker 2: caregivers and so we can develop a more insecure type.

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Speaker 2: There's three types. There's anxious, avoidant, and fearful, and they're

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Speaker 2: all responding to the primary caregivers in different ways. We

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Speaker 2: can also inbed more than one timement pattern, so people

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Speaker 2: want to really strongly identify. Like for me, my mom

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Speaker 2: was preoccupied, so I developed an anxious base. But my

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Speaker 2: dad was also not available because he was struggling with substances,

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Speaker 2: so I have avoidance in me as well. So we're

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Speaker 2: not just one type. And it's so multifaceted, right, and

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Speaker 2: so I think people are I think it's so wonderful

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Speaker 2: that people are like getting this language out there and

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Speaker 2: we're starting to identify, and it can give you a

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Speaker 2: sense of like, wow, I'm not crazy. I literally wrote

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Speaker 2: the books like I don't want you to feel crazy

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Speaker 2: for your behaviors. But at the same time, you're not

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Speaker 2: just a label, and it's not that simple. It's so

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Speaker 2: multifaceted and there's so many layers. And I've experienced every

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Speaker 2: single type within my in my being based on who

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Speaker 2: you attached to, So you have an embedded pattern based

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Speaker 2: on how you co regulated and how you connected to

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Speaker 2: your primary caregivers, your partner or your boss or your

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Speaker 2: friend that you're has a pattern, and then the attachment

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Speaker 2: patterns join into a relational dance together and create an

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Speaker 2: I think by sharing this, I'm just sharing that there's

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Speaker 2: so many levels and there's so many ways to look

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Speaker 2: at this, and it's great if you start to identify,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, I have anxious attachment, super because it

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Speaker 2: helps you calm your mind and get some answers and

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Speaker 2: know that it's so much more than just that, Like

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Speaker 2: that's just the beginning of starting to unpack how uniquely

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Speaker 2: you have survived and adapted in the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and to clarify this because this is something that

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Speaker 3: comes up a lot within clients. But also even when

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about attachment with my friends, is it's very

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Speaker 3: confusing when they're like, I'm anxious, so I will do X,

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Speaker 3: or they are avoidant so they will do X. But

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Speaker 3: then the behavior isn't always X. And what I just

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Speaker 3: heard from you is because our attachment is rooted in

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Speaker 3: our desire to stay connected in some way. If we're insecure,

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Speaker 3: our behavior is going to end up really mimking what

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Speaker 3: we think is going to keep us in connection with

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Speaker 3: somebody versus just this one pattern that we're.

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Speaker 1: Going to have for life. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think of it as adaptations. And

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Speaker 2: so if you're anxious, you adapted by regulating your primary

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Speaker 2: caregiver's nervous system, and you self abandoned in a way

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Speaker 2: so you become attuned to the other person. So how

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Speaker 2: this shows up an adult is that you're more sensitive

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Speaker 2: to what's going on in other people's bodies. You self

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Speaker 2: abandon You're you know, very empathic that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: So you can show up that way.

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Speaker 3: That actually was really helpful what you just said, and

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Speaker 3: I want to say it again just to make sure

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Speaker 3: I'm hearing it correctly, is that if I am anxious,

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Speaker 3: what I end up doing is I self abandoned to

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Speaker 3: regulate my or really insecure, to regulate my caregiver.

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Speaker 1: So if I'm in a relationship with somebody, my.

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Speaker 3: Behavior is really me self abandoning versus an anxious person

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Speaker 3: always is clinging.

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Speaker 2: No anxis this person isn't always clinging. But yeah, these

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Speaker 2: adaptive strategies that you learned so early on, believe it

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Speaker 2: or not. Your system is trying to protect you again

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Speaker 2: in your romantic life, and so they're automatic. They're in

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Speaker 2: your automatic nervous system. So when we hear the word

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Speaker 2: anxious or avoidant, we have to think fear. Fear is

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Speaker 2: sympathetic activation. What do you do when you're scared? Sometimes

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Speaker 2: we run towards to try to coregulate because we're scared

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Speaker 2: and we need connections. Sometimes we run away, right And

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Speaker 2: so you know, you could say running towards is a

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Speaker 2: more anxious pattern and running away is a more avoidant pattern.

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Speaker 2: Both those patterns are are fear states. There's not a

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Speaker 2: better or worse. If we're running towards and we're scared,

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Speaker 2: our partner could be scared too and run away. Then

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Speaker 2: we're both stuck in constant fear states. So it's good

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Speaker 2: to know the labels, but you're also just kind of

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Speaker 2: looking at like, how do I handle the loss of connection?

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Speaker 2: How do I handle abandonment? How do I know handle

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Speaker 2: feeling engulfed? Are these things that show up in my

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Speaker 2: primary relationships? And I bet you they are things that

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Speaker 2: unfortunately you experienced really early on, and you have a

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Speaker 2: response around them that kind of repeat later on. In

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Speaker 2: your adult life.

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Speaker 3: In that part, it's something you experienced early on. I

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Speaker 3: think is helpful when it comes to like the shame part,

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Speaker 3: because people.

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Speaker 1: Are like, why do I do this? It's like, this

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Speaker 1: is something you learned how to protect yourself.

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Speaker 2: Even fight flight and anger is a hairline trigger. Like

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Speaker 2: if your partner is angry and you shoot right into anger,

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Speaker 2: it is very hard to stop that response from happening.

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Speaker 2: They're like, kind of, we're signaling to each other unconsciously

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Speaker 2: all the time. Am I safe or am I in danger?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And so if our partner is scared and we really

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Speaker 2: want to help them, but our systems picking up the

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Speaker 2: fear and goes into fear too, we've got two scared

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Speaker 2: people who are out of connection. And you know, that's

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Speaker 2: essentially the anxious avoidant dance, which everybody is obsessed with understanding,

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Speaker 2: But it's really two nervous systems that are in sympathetic

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Speaker 2: activation or in states that can't get back into connection,

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Speaker 2: and they're both coping with the opposite way. Like, so

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Speaker 2: an anxious person more or less wants to get into

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Speaker 2: connection by getting closer and needs col regulation because they

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Speaker 2: didn't get enough of that. So they struggle with self

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Speaker 2: regulation and avoidant person wants to get away to try

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Speaker 2: to calm themselves down. So at the same moment, when

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Speaker 2: both systems are scared, they want the opposite that the

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Speaker 2: other person wants. So it becomes you know, once you

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Speaker 2: just understand that you have so much more compassion for

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Speaker 2: your partner and yourself, it's like, oh my god, we're

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Speaker 2: both scared, and we're both dealing with how we're trying

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Speaker 2: what we need so differently, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I like to remind people that no matter what your

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Speaker 3: attachment is, our behaviors are a lot of times trying

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Speaker 3: to do the same thing, which is to avoid abandonment

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Speaker 3: and rejection. It might look different how we do that,

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Speaker 3: but we really are all wanting the same thing. And

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Speaker 3: I think you hearing like we're both scared, it just

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Speaker 3: looks our fear looks different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we might pick someone who abandons us

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Speaker 2: because there's a familiarity and a charge and a reenactment

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Speaker 2: of our original wound. And so the work that I

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Speaker 2: do with a lot of people is get them really conscious.

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Speaker 2: I've done a lot of work myself in relationships that

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Speaker 2: perceive toxic. If you want to call it that way,

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Speaker 2: but in a way get you in touch with earlier

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Speaker 2: states of Okay, you picked this person who doesn't have

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Speaker 2: the capacity to show up for you emotionally. Who does

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Speaker 2: that remind you of? And what are you repeating? And

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Speaker 2: can we get in touch with that original wound? And

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Speaker 2: once we can, it becomes less about the person in

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Speaker 2: your life now and more about getting in touch with

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Speaker 2: the core wound that you experienced early on. So every

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Speaker 2: relationship becomes a mirror if you start to look at

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Speaker 2: it that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's funny.

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Speaker 3: The next thing I was going to ask you is

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Speaker 3: about the avoidant anxious dance, and that just you just

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Speaker 3: naturally went right into that. I'm assuming that's something you

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Speaker 3: said everybody's obsessed with. It's something that people just find

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Speaker 3: interesting or that we just all find ourselves doing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's unconscious that we do it. And I unpack

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Speaker 2: a lot of it in the book very compassionately. Because

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Speaker 2: the thing is anxious people and I'm one of them.

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Speaker 2: We like to point the finger that the avoidant person

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Speaker 2: isn't doing the work or whatever. The truth is, both

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Speaker 2: people are really suffering. And I think once you start

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Speaker 2: to really understand some tools, how to navigate your nervous systems,

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Speaker 2: how to create dual awareness, how to have different language

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Speaker 2: around your automatic when when the systems are activated, you

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Speaker 2: can change the pattern. It takes a little bit of

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Speaker 2: work on both ends in a conscious relationship.

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Speaker 3: Also, hearing you say I come at it really compassionately,

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Speaker 3: that struck me because I do see that a lot.

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Speaker 1: I see a lot.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it's because I find more people who are leaning

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Speaker 3: on the anxious side of the spectrum in my office

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Speaker 3: more often.

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Speaker 2: Because we're more likely to get help.

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Speaker 1: To go to therapy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I hear a lot of like almost blaming

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Speaker 3: language towards and of somebody who leans more avoidant. And

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Speaker 3: I like your framework around, like there has to be compassionateness.

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Speaker 3: We're not trying to hurt each other and we're not

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Speaker 3: trying to be bad people, but the way that we

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Speaker 3: are wired, this is just what happens when we go

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Speaker 3: into these protective modes. So I like that because I

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Speaker 3: think I will say I've done that, like I've been like, well,

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Speaker 3: they're avoidant it.

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Speaker 1: If they would just blah blah blah, then I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have to do this.

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Speaker 3: But the reality is like, okay, but maybe they're avoidant

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Speaker 3: because they're hurt, or they're scared, or they didn't get

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Speaker 3: what they need, not because they're also bad people.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I've been in a place where I wanted

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Speaker 2: my partner who was avoidant to get help, and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't work. Sometimes it does not work. Some people can

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Speaker 2: go into couples counseling and are very lucky and can

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Speaker 2: heal together. But the more you want some avoidant person

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Speaker 2: to get help, the less likely they are to get help.

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Speaker 2: And it's like this cruel life lesson of letting go

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Speaker 2: and realizing the only person you have real agency over

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Speaker 2: is yourself and you can go and do the work yourself,

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Speaker 2: And it's amazing. When you let go and you start

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Speaker 2: doing your own work, it shifts the whole pattern of

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Speaker 2: the dynamic of the relationship. So it's the opposite. And

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Speaker 2: I also can identify for anyone who's listening, I've been there.

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Speaker 2: When you have an avoidant partner, it can be so challenging,

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Speaker 2: so challenging because it's like crazy making because you can

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Speaker 2: see the avoidance and the disconnection hurts so much, and

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Speaker 2: yet you know we don't have control over them, kind

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Speaker 2: of leaning in into their own suffering or willing to

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Speaker 2: go and get the help. It's actually when we let

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Speaker 2: go that maybe they will start to look at themselves.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of that has to do with energy too.

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Speaker 3: What would you say or how do you talk through

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Speaker 3: this and work through this with clients when you have

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Speaker 3: somebody who is working on getting towards a more secure attachment,

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Speaker 3: who is pining over or maybe in a relationship with

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Speaker 3: somebody who is not interested in shifting or changing, but

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Speaker 3: they like love them or or it could just be

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Speaker 3: like an early dating stage too, where it's like I

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Speaker 3: can do all that work on myself, but I still

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Speaker 3: want to be with this person. How do you have

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Speaker 3: the conversation with a client or it could be a

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Speaker 3: friend that might sound a little different around like if

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Speaker 3: you guys are incompatible, it doesn't really matter how much

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Speaker 3: you like XYZ.

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Speaker 2: I think you have to meet the client where they're

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Speaker 2: at and hold the longing. So the longing for someone

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Speaker 2: who is unavailable is really early on, right, and so

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Speaker 2: it could be a year of longing for mister or

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Speaker 2: missus right to show up at your door and heal

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Speaker 2: your abandonment. Moon. Really what you're longing for is maybe

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Speaker 2: an infant or a one year old who was reaching

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Speaker 2: out for a parent who wasn't there. And so if

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Speaker 2: we can hold like this longing actually exists, and I

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Speaker 2: know you think it's for a person X, but there's

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Speaker 2: a good chance this is familiar for you and your

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Speaker 2: longing for someone who doesn't have the capacity is something

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Speaker 2: you experienced really early on. And if you can really

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Speaker 2: help someone get in touch with that, then we hold

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Speaker 2: it and we hold it and we're with it, and

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Speaker 2: we don't try to get rid of weird of it.

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Speaker 2: We don't try to ignore it. We try to say,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, this lifts inside of you. This is

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Speaker 2: part memory what you're experiencing, and so we go with

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Speaker 2: it until the longing is held long enough where the

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Speaker 2: desire actually dissipates, and you'd be surprised it will dissipate

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Speaker 2: after a while, and you'll be like, Okay, this person

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Speaker 2: can't give me what I need and I've done all

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Speaker 2: this work on myself, and now I might be open

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Speaker 2: to someone who's actually available.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting, because yeah, even talking about like the

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Speaker 3: mirroring effect of this is mirroring something that feels familiar,

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Speaker 3: so it might not be this person it's this longing

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Speaker 3: from your infancy or whatever part of your childhood. So

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Speaker 3: I thought today we could talk a little bit about

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Speaker 3: the connection between attachment and dating apps, because dating apps

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Speaker 3: were they became popular in like twenty twelve, twenty. Between

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Speaker 3: twenty twelve and twenty fifteen, I feel like is when

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Speaker 3: they really start popping up.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think they're going away.

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Speaker 3: I really think they're becoming probably more popular, even though

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Speaker 3: people are getting more frustrated with them.

400
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Speaker 1: But I have seen how they've changed dating.

401
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Speaker 3: And I also have seen a lot of people being

402
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Speaker 3: so frustrated with them. I found my husband through a

403
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Speaker 3: dating app, and I still was like fed up with them,

404
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Speaker 3: And I have seen how it has changed our behavior

405
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Speaker 3: out in the wild, and so I'm interested from a

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Speaker 3: like a bird's eye view. How have you seen dating

407
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Speaker 3: apps shifting the way people date and enter into relationships?

408
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think there's been positive and negative. You know, yeah,

409
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 2: for sure, you met your husband and people a lot

410
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,919
Speaker 2: of people are meeting their person online and there's no

411
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 2: stigmatism or there's a lot less stigmatism around it now

412
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Speaker 2: because who wants to go to a bar and like

413
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Speaker 2: sit there and try it you know, like it's much

414
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Speaker 2: easier to go online and find people who are actually

415
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Speaker 2: you're assuming are also looking for a relationship as well.

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Speaker 2: The problem with it and actually I just read an

417
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Speaker 2: article about hinge and one other I forgot what the

418
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 2: other one was, where they're they're actually creating it so

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Speaker 2: that you become addicted to swiping. So the problem with

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00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,919
Speaker 2: that is now there's all these options, and it's becoming

421
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,159
Speaker 2: very transactional. Because there's so many options, it's so easy

422
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 2: to give up on someone, or not give someone a chance,

423
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 2: or judge someone because they're not tall enough or they

424
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 2: you know, and you're not really meeting someone's energy, right,

425
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 2: Like I think in some ways they get you access

426
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 2: to people who are at least hopefully looking for relationship,

427
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 2: but you don't really know until you communicate with them

428
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: and actually meet with them if there's an energy, like

429
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Speaker 2: if there's a connection, And then I think it's breeding

430
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Speaker 2: a lot of people to go on and just have

431
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 2: these exchanges that are releasing dopamine and other chemicals, and

432
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,680
Speaker 2: people aren't actually getting to the actual relationship. They're just

433
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,360
Speaker 2: kind of becoming addicted to the connection or the exchange

434
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Speaker 2: in the beginning. So it's it's like chicken or the egg, Like,

435
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Speaker 2: are we better off with like five options that are

436
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Speaker 2: around the corner from our house, or are we better

437
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 2: off with all these options? But we have to filter

438
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 2: through and stay open and kind of invite this process

439
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: in So I have mixed feelings about it. But yeah,

440
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 2: a lot of people meet their partners online, and I

441
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: think you have to be mindful of it, and you know,

442
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: just use it as a tool as you're out there,

443
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: don't like rely completely on it.

444
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would have never met my husband, even though

445
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 3: he lived a mile away from me.

446
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 1: I don't think I would have ever met him.

447
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 3: And it has again, the whole idea of the there's

448
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 3: so many fish in the sea has really affected I

449
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 3: think people's willingness to engage the attention they can give somebody.

450
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 3: And I guess I'm curious how you think that that idea. Well, actually,

451
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 3: let's start with this because this is something I see

452
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 3: a lot. I experienced this a lot. You meet somebody

453
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 3: on a dating app, you connect, and you start talking,

454
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, whether it's on the first date,

455
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 3: you go out. This can happen in real life too,

456
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 3: but all of a sudden you guys are exchanging all

457
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 3: this information really really fast online for the most part,

458
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: and it almost feels like you go from zero to

459
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 3: one hundred, where like somebody's texting you good morning and

460
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 3: you haven't even met them in real life yet, and

461
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 3: so it creates this like idea of a phase of

462
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 3: a relationship that you haven't really gotten to yet. And

463
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 3: so I'm curious from an attachment standpoint, like how that

464
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 3: might be deepening that behavior versus allowing opportunity for somebody

465
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 3: to create and find more security and relationship.

466
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: Think that it can go two ways. So depending on

467
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: who's on the other side of the phone, you can

468
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 2: be texting someone and building a fantasy, yeah, of who

469
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: this person is and actually falling in love with the

470
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: idea of the person from the image and getting lots

471
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: of great dopamine hits without even meeting the person. The

472
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: other flip side is you can meet someone online and

473
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 2: you can start to build an emotional connection before you

474
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: see if there's a full on physical connection. So it

475
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 2: could go Oh, either way, it's not one way is

476
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: better than the other. I would say, based on attachment

477
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 2: theory and trying to avoid relationships that could be very turbulent,

478
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: that if someone moves very fast, that that's a red flag,

479
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 2: and you know you want to be really mindful that

480
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: there's a surge to merge. It just came up with that.

481
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: But if there's this need to merge and love bomb you,

482
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: and I'm sure your listeners know what that means, but

483
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: really show up in your life excessively. And what I

484
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 2: think if you are dating and you're listening, that you

485
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: want to meet someone who's in tandem with you or

486
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: in cadence with you. So if they keep texting you

487
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 2: wonderful things, but they're not really in tune with where

488
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 2: you're at, or they're not letting you text back, or

489
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 2: they're not paying attention like for you, if you pull

490
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: back and respect that boundary and it's all about them

491
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: getting to you, then you know that they're just in

492
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: that dopamine chase and they're not really a tuning to

493
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 2: where you're real.

494
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 3: I'm curious for you to say more about that, the

495
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 3: dopamine chase, because that I think will answer a lot

496
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 3: of people's questions about what is this because I think

497
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 3: that falls in line with some of the love bombing

498
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: behavior which they might not be even meaning to love bomb,

499
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: but their dopamine chase is creating this like love bombing behavior.

500
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 3: Talk a little bit more about what that dopamine chase

501
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 3: might look for for somebody who's doing that on a

502
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 3: dating app.

503
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, let me start with. Someone who grew

504
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 2: up in a home where there was abandonment or neglect

505
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: has a higher tendency to love the feeling of being

506
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: chased and anxiously attached tend to have that abandonment underlying.

507
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: So when they're being pursued, it feels like they're the

508
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 2: only one in the world that exists, and it feels

509
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 2: like some of the missing developmental chemicals when they were

510
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 2: an infant that they maybe didn't get start to actually

511
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: get flooded with this from another person. So, oh my god,

512
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 2: he or she thinks I'm so special, and all of

513
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: these feelings come up the way you'd want your mom

514
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 2: to think about you as a newborn. So if you

515
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: didn't get a lot of that bathing chemically in your

516
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: brain when you were young, you're going to feel very

517
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: allured to that type of pursuing now. And so it's

518
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 2: not wrong or right, it's just it intoxicates the situation.

519
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 2: It blinds you to maybe some other red flags that

520
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: you won't look at because it feels so good for

521
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 2: some people. Now, people who've done a lot of work

522
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 2: on themselves and heal this younger wound. When they're being

523
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: pursued that hardcore, they're like, huh uh, not going to happen.

524
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 2: But it really is alluring if you haven't healed that.

525
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: I've been in this situation where, oh my god, it

526
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 2: feels so good. I'm like on cloud not and I'm

527
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 2: going to ignore that this person has a felony, right,

528
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: Like we just ignore things, right, I've actually done that, right,

529
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 2: And I mean, like, anyway, speaking of that person, he

530
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: was a wonderful person in my life, and I'm not

531
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: trying to knock him, but I'm saying.

532
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: We will didn't give it a second look.

533
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: I definitely gave it many looks because the allure and

534
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: the chemical chemistry between us was just on fire, you know.

535
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 2: So I think that you want to pay attention to,

536
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: like how much is that being released in my brain?

537
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: How fast is this person trying to go? Are they

538
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: really doing this at my pace too? Can I back up?

539
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: Let me pass it through a friend, Let me tell

540
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 2: my friends about him or her, you want feedback if

541
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: you don't want feedback, and this feels so amazing, and

542
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: he's the one, you're kind of headed for another life

543
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: lesson most of the time, not all the time, but

544
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: I'm just going to say, you might be headed for

545
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: one of those life lessons.

546
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: So that's a good marker.

547
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 3: If you don't want feedback, then you might be heading

548
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 3: for a life lesson. Yeah, okay, So on the avoided side,

549
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 3: would that same dopamine chase also be that they want

550
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 3: to pursue and then they run away and then they

551
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: go pursue somebody else, and then they leave and then

552
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 3: they pursue somebody else because that like new pursuant and

553
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 3: then not getting too close, that's.

554
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,239
Speaker 2: What yeah, I mean. So when you're in pursue or

555
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: when you're being pursued, you're not really in connection, yeah,

556
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: you know, and so you don't really know what's going

557
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 2: to come up. Once you kind of and I talk

558
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: about this in the book as my first marriage, when

559
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: I kind only have the sigh of relief and I'm

560
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: like in connection with him, he starts backing up right

561
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: and start to avoidant patterns start to come up, So

562
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: you know, just know that if you're being pursued as

563
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: wonderful as it feels, until you make the connection, until

564
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: you have rupture and repair, until you're into later stages

565
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: of the relationship, you don't really know what the relational

566
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: dance is going to look like. They're going to stop

567
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: pursuing you at some point because they're going to get you,

568
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: and then the dance changes, and then you're like, wait,

569
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: what happened to this person who was giving me flowers

570
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: every day and you know, doing all these things well,

571
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: that can't be maintained. So the relationship moves into other

572
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: stages and sometimes a little bit of pursuing is very healthy.

573
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: It's really about respecting your cadence.

574
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that feels important.

575
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 3: Though, when you are in the pursuant, the pursuing part

576
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 3: of relationship, you're not in connection yet and so you

577
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: need to have some space where you have the rupture

578
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 3: and prepare and repair.

579
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: Things aren't perfect.

580
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 3: You maybe are in more of a normal sea of

581
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 3: life before you can really see what the relationship is

582
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: going to look like.

583
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's relationships that like are in distancer and

584
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 2: pursuer the whole life. I mean, people talk about twin flames.

585
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: And don't get me wrong, I think there are deep

586
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: spiritual connections we can have with people. I've had, you know,

587
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: I've had one. But when you're in distancer and chaser

588
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: or whatever they're calling, they're really the neurobiology is neither

589
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: one of you are really available. So one is chasing

590
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: and one the other one shows up. Then the pattern

591
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: shifts and it's quite a miserable way for gimmicks to

592
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: be out there to tell you, oh, you know, you're

593
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: in your divine masculine and he's in the chaser or

594
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: the runner role, and really both people are scared of intimacy,

595
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: and you're setting yourself up for maybe years of waiting,

596
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: and it's quite torturous, to be honest, and it's hard

597
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: to watch.

598
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: And you don't have to be in that. I think

599
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: I already know the answer to this, but I'm still

600
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: going to ask it. What is your take on this

601
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 3: idea of love at first sight from an attachment standpoint?

602
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 3: What is your take on this idea of love at

603
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 3: first sight from an attachment standpoint? Do you believe that

604
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: that's possible? What do you think if you don't? What

605
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: is that feeling that people have?

606
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: I absolutely think it's possible. I mean, the way I

607
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: live my life, there's not one possibility that doesn't exist.

608
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: And I'm going to say that one thing is one way.

609
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 2: I definitely have had love at first sight. I can't

610
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: say there's sustain It was a sustainable relationship earlier wounding

611
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: a lot of chemistry and deep love and deep love,

612
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: So I think that's possible. But I think when we're

613
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: looking for sustainable relationships, the tendency is to probably build

614
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: a little bit slower and to build vulnerability and intimacy

615
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: will probably come. And that love that you feel for sight,

616
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: that is a type of love, but it's different than

617
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: the deepening of the love that you get later on

618
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: in the relationship when you've worked through some of the

619
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: issues and you've deepened in intimacy. So that's it. I

620
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: would say that's the ultimate goal, and that beginning phase

621
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: it's just yummy in your brain and it's wonderful, but

622
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: it's not an indicator if the relationship is going to

623
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: be sustainable or that you guys have well usually it's

624
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: deep wounding on both sides, but that you guys have

625
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: the tools to navigate rupture and repair and deepen in

626
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: intimacy for years to come, So it's not always a

627
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: good indicator.

628
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there can be a lot of compassion,

629
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 3: that idea that I can have this deep love for

630
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: somebody in deep care and there can be so many

631
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 3: good things about a certain pairing. And if we don't

632
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 3: have the capacity to navigate some of the natural parts

633
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 3: of life and rupture, then the relationship's not going to

634
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 3: be sustainable in a healthy way.

635
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: And that is tough.

636
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: Eh, you're telling me that was probably like the hardest

637
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: lesson I had to personally learn in my life. If

638
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: the wounding is deep on both sides, it's very hard

639
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: to sometimes rupture and repair and move past things. And

640
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: I think people can really love each other, but sometimes

641
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: that's just not enough, right, And I think if both

642
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: people are willing to do the work, they could grow

643
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: through it. But the earlier the wounding, the harder it is. Yeah,

644
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: it's a hard reality. I think there are a lot

645
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: of people who love a lot of people and just

646
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: it just didn't work and there wasn't a capacity. Like

647
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: I can think of someone in my mind and I

648
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: said to him, like, I don't blame you for not

649
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: wanting to do the work. The work is so hard.

650
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: It's sitting in your own suffering, it's being in your feelings,

651
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: if you don't have a sense of safety and you

652
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: don't have the right people in your life. Like, it's

653
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: a really long journey to kind of do the work.

654
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: And so some people just can't. They need to avoid

655
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: the work until I don't know, until it's time, if

656
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: it ever is time for them to do it.

657
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, which I've learned, and I think that I have

658
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 3: to remind myself that the things that I have learned

659
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 3: a lot of times when it comes to like the compassion,

660
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 3: that understanding I have around a lot of that stuff

661
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 3: is because of this is my job and this is

662
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 3: not most people's jobs. And I used to look at

663
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: people as like, oh, they're just resistant, or they're defiant,

664
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 3: or they're that person just like is selfish, when the

665
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: reality is sometimes people are not allowing me as a

666
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: therapist to open a certain part up or shift a

667
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 3: certain behavior because they still need that, like they still

668
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: need that for their own safety. And when and if

669
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: it's time, there will be an opening to that gate.

670
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: But I have to respect the fact that.

671
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 3: I don't know what it's like to be in that

672
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: person's body, right, And from a dating standpoint, I think

673
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,959
Speaker 3: that is that can help us not have to demonize

674
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: everybody who we can't make it work with.

675
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean they're bad people. And that's for us.

676
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 3: Too, right. Yeah, Like, I've been the problem, and it's

677
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: not that there's something inherently wrong with me. It's that

678
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 3: my availability in that moment was not what that person

679
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: needed to have a sustainable relationship. And that's not a

680
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 3: fatal flaw in me. That's just I have to have

681
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 3: some compassion for where I was at that time in

682
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 3: my life.

683
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been there too, where I wish I had

684
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: more compassion for my partner and I could hold deeper space,

685
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 2: but it was bringing up too much pain in me

686
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 2: simultaneously that I couldn't. And when two people are dealing

687
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: with that much wounding, it's very hard to hold space

688
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: for the other. A lot of us have been there,

689
00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: and it's sad because you want the relationship to you know,

690
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 2: and we can try really really hard, and it's it's

691
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: a challenge. And I'll say in one of my situations,

692
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: like if the other person isn't open to doing the work,

693
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it boils down to a

694
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: sense of safety. So if they've never experienced therapy, or

695
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 2: they don't, they've never gotten vulnerable or experienced any healing

696
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 2: in any way, it can be very threatening to step

697
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: into that world and want to do the deeper work.

698
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: And I think that's where we can get frustrated with

699
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: some people with some avoidant tendencies.

700
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, to kind of wrap the dating app conversation in

701
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 3: a bow, I'm curious if you have any advice and

702
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 3: I use that word carefully, right, advice or feedback that

703
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 3: you would want somebody to hear or know who might

704
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 3: be of a more anxious attachment, who wants to still

705
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: be able to use the dating apps in a healthy way.

706
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: Is there stuff you would say, pay attention to this

707
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 3: behavior and others pay attention to this behavior in yourself?

708
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 3: What are things that can help people not get into

709
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 3: maybe that avoidant anxious dance or that dopamine hit cycle.

710
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: Go slow.

711
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: What they all want to hear.

712
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the slower you go, the better because you're going

713
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: to ride out the dopamine parts. And kind of, yeah,

714
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 2: go slow if you really do struggle with anxious attachment

715
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: and you want to meet someone, and also grieve the

716
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: rescue fantasy and maybe work with a friend or a

717
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: professional or someone and bounce back, you know, the dynamics.

718
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: And also like if you're anxious, like and someone doesn't respond,

719
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 2: I think sometimes the dating apps can teach you like

720
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: it's not really about you, like it you don't have

721
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: to personalize everybody's behavior, Like I've been in situations where

722
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: I'm anxious but I've avoided before. Or there's so many

723
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: options like don't make it about you, like I know

724
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: that's hard, or if you're gonna make it about you

725
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 2: and a lot of feelings come up because someone ghosted,

726
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 2: you bring those sensations to a professional so you can

727
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: kind of do the deeper work around what gets activated

728
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: or what's getting awakened in these interactions because they're these

729
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: interactions are intense. They can be really really intense. Like

730
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: I have some clients that are dating and one day

731
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: to a week can kind of put you on a

732
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: roller coaster ride. So you want to make sure that

733
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: you have a lot of support around you as you're

734
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: dating and pace yourself.

735
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the idea of not making it about

736
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 3: you is so difficult because there's so much unknown in

737
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 3: that and it's really easy, I think, to figure out

738
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: or to find blame in something wrong with me. They

739
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 3: didn't like this about me, I did this wrong just

740
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 3: to kind of give us an answer, because having an

741
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 3: answer feels good even if it's not bad. And so

742
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 3: I think something I try to encourage people to do too,

743
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 3: is to sit in that space of discomfort but find

744
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 3: something that can help soothe you in that because like,

745
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 3: it's like your body's on fire when I don't have

746
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 3: an answer. So instead of just find an answer to

747
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 3: put the fire out, what can help you sue that

748
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 3: fire Where I can sit in this, but I don't

749
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 3: have to figure it out until that feeling ends up

750
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,479
Speaker 3: dissipating on its own, because it does go away, and.

751
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: That might be I need another person to sit in

752
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: this with me. Yeah, because you're meeting an earlier part

753
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 2: and you like, one thing about anxious attachment is they

754
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 2: didn't get So we're not born with a with a

755
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: fully developed nervous system. And so if our parent is

756
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: nervous or anxious or preoccupy that's a scientific word, they're

757
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: not lending their parasympathetic nervous system to us to help

758
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: us calm down. So we actually struggle with self regulation.

759
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: It's like not a choice, like we're missing that developmental link. Yeah,

760
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: So co regulation, like calling a friend and having them

761
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: sit with you and having that support is actually what

762
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: maybe the best way. It's better than a drink, it's

763
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: better than taking us substance, but it's the best way

764
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: to use somebody else's nervous system, lend it to you

765
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: and help you kind of regulate yourself and sit in

766
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: that anxiety with you until you calm yourself down. And

767
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 2: that might be the only way for someone who's very anxious.

768
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can go to a person that's not

769
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 3: the person that you're having the anxiety around. I think

770
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 3: that's the You don't need that person to soothe you.

771
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 3: You're going to like a friend or somebody who's safe

772
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 3: and you know is going to be there.

773
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the thing is, it's like when you want

774
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: that romantic person to fix you, that's essentially what you're

775
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 2: doing is I want them to soothe you. When you

776
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 2: go to a friend, you don't want them to fix you.

777
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: You want them to hold you and be with you

778
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: and meet you. And I think that's a really good

779
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: point because when you look at healing. We're not looking

780
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: at getting rid of the sensation. We're looking to ride

781
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 2: out the sensation with support. So anytime we're reaching out

782
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 2: for someone who's going to make it go away, we're

783
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 2: medicating it right. But if we can grab onto someone

784
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 2: who's going to sit there with us, Essentially we're saying,

785
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: I'm scared, I'm regressed, and my nervous system doesn't know

786
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: how to sit in this discomfort. Will you lend yourself

787
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 2: to help me ride this out and so that I

788
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: will develop a window of tolerance to have more of

789
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: a capacity to be with this distress inside of me.

790
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 2: And by the way, the reason why you can't be

791
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 2: with that distress is because no one was secure enough

792
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 2: in the first place to help calm your system down.

793
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, the last thing I'm going to ask you,

794
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: it's kind of a big question, but maybe not. How

795
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 3: would you describe to somebody what a healthy, sustainable relationship

796
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 3: will feel like.

797
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: It sometimes will feel boring, it will sometimes feel like chaotic,

798
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: like it doesn't mean that it's perfect. It will feel

799
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: more consistent, it'll feel less exciting.

800
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: Let's end the conversation on that.

801
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: It could potentially feel less exciting. I'm not saying that

802
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 2: it won't have these wonderful deepening and intimacy and a

803
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: little bit of a charge, but it's probably not going

804
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: to be that rollercoaster that you're used to.

805
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, And what I have found for myself is eventually

806
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 3: it does. Actually, it like is less exciting in the beginning,

807
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: but then once you allow yourself to be in it,

808
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: it gets exciting. It's just in the beginning, isn't that

809
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 3: Like it's the chaos that isn't there that we're used

810
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 3: to that we're like, oh, like, we don't.

811
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, simple.

812
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 3: And easy and it's not confusing and that doesn't like

813
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 3: keep us up at night.

814
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then once.

815
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 3: You're in it and you realize that, oh, okay, I

816
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,919
Speaker 3: can allow myself to like this person, then it gets

817
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 3: really exciting.

818
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: Oh that's what I had.

819
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 3: That's what I experienced for myself, and allowing I think

820
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 3: that discomfort might be the boringness too. It's like, how

821
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 3: do I get somebody to sit with me through this? Like,

822
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, he texted me what he said he's

823
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: gonna text me. He didn't overly obsess over me, but

824
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: I could tell he liked like Okay, sit with me

825
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 3: through that until I can get to that, and that's

826
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: what I need to coregulate.

827
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that sounds really normal and healthy, and you're like, yeah.

828
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: It's great, Oh my god.

829
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 3: Okay, So if people are hearing kind of what you're

830
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 3: saying and they're like, oh, I want more. I want

831
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 3: to learn more about this and I want to learn

832
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 3: it from this person, where can people find you?

833
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: Well, I'm on Instagram Jessica Baum LMHC. You can type

834
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 2: in Jessica Baum. My book pops up Anxiously Attached Becoming

835
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 2: More Secure in Life and Love. I have a coaching

836
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: business called be Selful, and then I have a private

837
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: practice here in Palm Beach called the Relationship Institute of

838
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: Palm Beach. And I don't know if you want this,

839
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 2: but I have an attachment style quiz that ooh, my

840
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: project manager can give you. So I don't know if

841
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 2: you want to link that to So maybe something like

842
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: that to help people and then they'll be connected to

843
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 2: me in that way and that helps. And yeah, you

844
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: can just find me anywhere. I mean put in Jessica Baum.

845
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 2: And I don't even know how I feel about this.

846
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: I don't even like it, but I'm all over the internet,

847
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: so I just keep reminding myself that I'm helping.

848
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: People, and yeah, it's weird.

849
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 2: It is very weird.

850
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: Can people work with you outside of where you live.

851
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a coaching business and I have five

852
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 2: therapists that are coaches that are all trained in attachment

853
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 2: theory who I work with, and we work together as

854
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: a team and collaborate because so many people contact me

855
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 2: and occasionally I take on a new client, but I

856
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 2: also have a team of people and we try to

857
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 2: match people appropriately.

858
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: Okay, well, thank you so much for this. I enjoyed it.

859
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: Thank you. This is such a great conversation.