1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and you're listening to steph Mom 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: ever told you? It's the most consumer's time of the 3 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: year here in the US. I myself went on a 4 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: nine hour, ultimately successful search for a hot deal on 5 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: a PS four. I got made fun of a lot, 6 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: but I was successful, and it reminded me of my 7 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: time working on Black Friday, UM, the one year I 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: was in charge of spotting shoplifters. That was my entire job, 9 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: And there was this rumored cleptomaniac who was a woman, 10 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: knowing about them all to be a notorious shoplifter. And 11 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: if you didn't know, most people that are diagnosed with 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: cleptomania are women. In the history of the term is 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: so intertwined with its consumerism and wealth and women. You're 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: gonna learn all about this frequently misunderstood condition in this 15 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: classic Sminty episode. Please enjoy. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never 16 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: told You from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and 17 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm kristin Um. 18 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: Something interesting about our topic today is the link, the 19 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: gendered link between women and stealing stuff, which call me 20 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: ignorant Kristen, But I really did not know that the 21 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: origins of the concept of kleptomania lay with ladies. Yeah, 22 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: I didn't know that either first. So let's just offer 23 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: an umbrella view of shoplifting in the United States, because 24 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people do it, a lot, so many people, 25 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: in fact, that it costs US retailers ten billion dollars 26 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: a year, but they only catch about twenty four per 27 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,639 Speaker 1: cent of them. But among all of those shoplifters, very 28 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: few would qualify as kleptomaniacs. Yeah, there is a difference 29 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: between just somebody who shoplifts or steal stuff and an 30 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: actual kleptomaniac. The word itself comes from the Greek cleptin 31 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: to steal, although it was first called klopomania and was 32 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: coined in eighteen sixteen by Andrew Mathai, a Swiss doctor, 33 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: who defined it as both a desire for theft and 34 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: theft without need. And this very sensitive doctor used it 35 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: to describe thieves who impulsively stole unneeded items out of 36 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: quote unquote pure insanity. Yeah. And then a little while 37 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: later in eighteen forty, a pair of French doctors later 38 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: changed the word to kleptomania to describe behaviors characterized by 39 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: irresistible involuntary urges, and the two points about theft without 40 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: need and the involuntary urge is going to be something 41 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: really important when it becomes applied specifically to women, because 42 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: kleptomania is often thought of as a woman's disease, because 43 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: two thirds of diagnosed kleptomaniacs are women. Right, and we 44 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: should look at this as we have pointed out in 45 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: other issues of the mind that we have talked about before, 46 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: women tend to present with more psychological issues like this 47 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: because they tend to go seek actual mental health help 48 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 1: more than men do. Yeah, some wonder whether there is 49 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: a gender bias at work in terms of that diagnosis 50 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: of kleptomania more for women, since women who steal tend 51 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: to get a psychiatric evaluation, whereas men who steal tend 52 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: to get prison time. Well, we are very delicate flowers. 53 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: So thank god um anyway, kleptomania. It turns out we're 54 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: right when we say that it's not necessarily that more 55 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: women than men and experience cleptomania. We both get it, 56 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: but we get it differently. This is coming from a 57 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: two thousand eight study in CNS spectrums. They looked at 58 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: nine adults from two thousand one to two thousand seven 59 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: with kleptomania. Both men and women showed substantial symptoms, but 60 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: women were more likely to be married, have a later 61 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: age at shoplifting, onset, steal household items and hoard those 62 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: stolen items, and have an eating disorder. They were less likely, however, 63 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: to steal electronics than men and less likely to have 64 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: another impulse controlled disorder. So those researchers concluded that when 65 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: it comes to kleptomania that they really need to take 66 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: gender into account in terms of devising prevention and treatment strategies. 67 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: But I mean it's almost impossible to disentangle gender and 68 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: women from kleptomania because if we go back in time 69 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 1: to when the term was being developed and passed around, 70 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: it was something that developed as an answer to the 71 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: rise of shoplifting, specifically among women. And the sources that 72 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: were about to cite are Tammy see Whitlock's Crime, Gender 73 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: and Consumer Culture in the nineteenth century England and an 74 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: essay and they're called Solving the Problem of the Criminal Consumer, 75 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: Women and Cleptomania, and then the book by Elainas Abelson 76 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: When Ladies Go a thieving, which I love the title 77 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: of it. Sounds like we should write a song about it. Indeed. 78 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: But so these these sources talk about the rise of 79 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: not only shoplifting, but cleptomania in particular, as kind of 80 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: a symptom of the times. Uh, A lot of things, 81 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: a lot of conditions were being medicalized that previously had 82 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: you would have just gotten hanged for. But so let's 83 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: look at what's going on. We've got the industrial revolution, right, 84 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: so goods were being made in bulk in factories, not 85 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: at home. This leads to the rise of the consumer 86 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: culture and the middle class who suddenly has a lot 87 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: of leisure time. Can you tell that I'm glossing over 88 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff? Well, so, during this time, women 89 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: are still responsible for doing most of the consuming and 90 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: acquiring goods for the family. But with this rise in 91 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: new goods and you know, bulk items, you have these 92 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: new department stores or the precursors to department stores that 93 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: offered a kind of freedom in this titillating environment of 94 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: of items. So, how do we explain at this time, women, 95 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: these middle class women who were well off, how do 96 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: we explain them stealing? Well, we do that in the 97 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: language of physical and mental illness. Yeah, early in the 98 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, um, there was an idea that this compulsive 99 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: shoplifting only affected women and why because certainly had to 100 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: do with uterine disease or pre menstrual tension. That was 101 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: I mean, those were the explanations at the time. And 102 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: uh there was a quote talking about how it began 103 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: as a genderless, if not classless ailment, but then the 104 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: kleptomania diagnosis lowly developed throughout the nineteenth century to become 105 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: the favored explanation for cases of female middle class shoplifting 106 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: because it would have been so scandalous for a middle 107 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: class woman to be sent to jail as a common criminal. 108 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: So if you were a poor woman at the time 109 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: and you got caught stealing, then you were just stealing 110 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: and you got sent to jail because you're a thief. 111 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: But if you are were a woman of any means whatsoever, 112 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: then you were simply being sort of uh compelled by 113 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: your crazy uterus to steal something, and so you needed 114 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: medical treatment, not prison time. And for Jane Austen fans 115 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: out there, her aunt was one of the first big 116 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: shoplifting cases that affected because she was a middle class 117 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: woman and she was caught stealing a spool of lace 118 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: from a store. And at the time, kleptomania really was 119 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: not a term that had been widely circulated. But after 120 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: the fact she became labeled as a kleptomaniac because why 121 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: else would a woman of her means and standing steal 122 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: a spool of lace? And speaking of lace, I mean 123 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: that was a hot commodity back in the day. These 124 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: middle class women were doing their darndists to get their 125 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: hands on uh, expensive silks, ribbons, like we said, lace. 126 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: They weren't going and stealing like a cantalope. I mean 127 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: they were stealing like things to make themselves look fancy. 128 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: And it wasn't too hard to conceal those items because 129 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: they were wearing so many clothes that they could literally 130 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: just sneak it up into their bustle or something like 131 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: that in trot out of the store. Um, and the 132 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: fact that there was new plate glass window technology that 133 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: facilitated these large storefront displays for the very first time, 134 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: and you had merchandise out on the floor in a 135 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: way that it had never been before. And so all 136 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: of a sudden you just have this these Morga's board 137 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: of things that women could take. But the whole shoplifting 138 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: craze portrayed was portrayed as you know, an affliction of 139 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: these mad women, because it was usually wealthier women who 140 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 1: probably could have afforded to buy that spool of lace. Right, 141 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: But this whole, this whole diagnosis itself of kleptomania is 142 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: so waited. It's so it has so much baggage and 143 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: is so heavily value laden because it says so much 144 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: about the views of women themselves. It's not just about 145 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: stealing stuff. It's about there is something wrong with women. 146 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: Women are inferior. There must be something wrong with them 147 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: to make them take this stuff that they don't need. 148 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: A poor woman, sure, well, she's poor, she needs to 149 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: steal that stuff. What what could possibly explain a wealthier 150 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: woman stealing Well, it's simply the ova stimulation of the bazaars, 151 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: doctors would say, because again, it was very fashionable to 152 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: be seen at these places. This was the era when 153 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: you have the rise of con accuous consumption and you 154 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: want to look good and being seen out shopping was 155 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 1: a sign of your class. And so the doctors were thinking, well, 156 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: I mean, these women are are leaving the home and 157 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: they're just seeing all these things and they don't know 158 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: what to do. And of course, in the nineteen tens, 159 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: Freudians would link it to female sexual repression, because why 160 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: else would a woman steal but to fill some barren 161 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: hole in her womb with lace with lace, a lacey womb. 162 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: I love it, but yeah, and they did. They linked 163 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: it to sexual desire to like, well, they're just acquiring 164 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: and acquiring and acquiring, because maybe they're not acquiring at home. 165 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: And it's also interesting to see how our perception of 166 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: kleptomania what drives it changes over time. After World War One, 167 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: for instance, it was considered a sign of acting out 168 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: to soothe mass trauma, because that's the hallmark of kleptomania, 169 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: you don't actually need the things. Stealing is different from 170 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: kleptomaniac shoplifting because, for instance, with the case of Winona 171 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: Ryder in two thousand two, and she got caught stealing 172 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: from sax Fifth Avenue, a lot of the garments that 173 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: she had, she had carelessly cut the tag out, so 174 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: there were holes in the clothes. She was never gonna 175 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: wear them, she just got the thrill apparently out of 176 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: stealing them. So a clinician said, yeah, I mean it's interesting. 177 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: I this is another topic, Kristen where I'm like, that's 178 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: that's not me, none, none of this has ever applied 179 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: to me. It did, and it did once. Yeah, you 180 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: were you a little kleptomaniac. I literally a little kleptomaniac. 181 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: And I only did it once, and the shame was 182 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: enough to make sure that I never did it again. 183 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: I my parents would take me to this like neighborhood 184 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 1: nanny babysitter person sometimes And there was one day where 185 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: I was leaving my parents had come to get me 186 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: right as another family was dropping off their little girl 187 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: for an overnight's day and her overnight bag carelessly just 188 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: left there in the hallway. And I walked by and 189 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: I saw this little stuff bunny and I was like, well, 190 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: that's gonna be mine now, and so I took it. 191 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: And it was like this little bunny that I had 192 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: no need for. It wasn't even that cute, like it 193 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: was in a little ballerina costume. Oh god, if that 194 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: little girl is listening, who's a grown up woman? Now? 195 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: I'm really really sorry, but I never used it I 196 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: never played with it. I hated to look at it. 197 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: I just threw it to the bottom of my toy chest. 198 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until I think I was cleaning out 199 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: the basement at my parents house, like years later that 200 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: I found and was like, oh, God, trash. I just 201 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: didn't even want to look at it again. Oh no, 202 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: because you were so I was so ashamed. Yeah, I was. 203 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: I think I was always too too terrified to steal anything. Um. 204 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: But because it was so initially associated with women, and 205 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: even still I feel like if you if you say 206 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: the word kleptomania, people will say, oh when own a 207 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: writer or just something that women tend to do, because 208 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: it was so gendered from the get go. There was 209 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: an interesting thing that happened in the nineteen seventies, and 210 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: this is coming from an article published in The New 211 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: Inquiry talking about kleptomania as a woman's disease, why we 212 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: think of it that way? And Auther talks about how 213 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: in the seventies it was no longer treated as a 214 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: disorder but as an ideology, saying that the hip, rebellious, 215 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: typically male shoplifter had been invented both in real life 216 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: and on the page, and the author goes on to 217 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: talk about how books like Saul Bellows Augie Marsh portray 218 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: these almost romantic shoplifters like Augie Marsh would always steal books, 219 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: and and what what a wonderful thing for a young 220 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: man to do. You know, he just steals books because 221 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: he wants to read. Um, whereas you know, a woman 222 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: stealing clothes is deranged with a wandering womb or something. Um. 223 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: But she goes on to talk about how a New 224 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: York there's a New York Times article that came out 225 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago citing the most commonly stolen authors, 226 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: and it says, quote, it's mostly younger men stealing the books. 227 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: They think it's an existential rite of passage to steal 228 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: their homeboy. Um. So that's just an interesting example of 229 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: how it's applied differently to men, because I guess because 230 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: it's thought of as as just something that women do 231 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: just out of frivolity. Almost right. And one recent pop 232 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: culture reference to kleptomania, especially the term just getting thrown around, 233 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: was The Bling Ring, which is has been made into 234 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: a movie. Um. There these were five teens who stole 235 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: more than three million dollars in jewelry and designer goods 236 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: from young Hollywood kids like Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, Megan Fox, 237 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: et cetera. Between October two thousand and eight to August 238 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: two thousand nine, and one of the teens, Nick Prugo, 239 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: claimed that it was peer pressure that he really just 240 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: wanted to keep his friends, one of whom was Rachel Lee, 241 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: who he said was the ring leader. So then Rachel 242 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: was described by another one of the teens as a 243 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: klepto freak. But as we'll get into when we talk 244 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: about the definitions, and as we've talked about a little bit, 245 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: is Rachel Lee really a cleptomaniac? Not really if we 246 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: look at the deaf and mission, because she tended to 247 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: be doing it out of just revenge or boredom or 248 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: an obsession with celebrity fashion. Yeah, she wanted those the 249 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: clothes that they had so badly, at least in the 250 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: way that uh Prugo told it to Vanity Fair writer 251 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Joe Sales, and um. It reminded me though, really quickly, 252 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: when I was reading When Ladies Go a Thieving, My 253 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: note is year old bling ring because talking about in 254 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. It seems like the exact same thing 255 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: as was driving Rachel Lee and the other members of 256 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: the Bling Ring UH in two thousand eight and two 257 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: thousand nine when they were going on their thieving rampage UH. 258 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: In the nineteenth century, for the female shoplifter, drapery firms 259 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: remained the favorite haunts, and women continue to steal items 260 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: like lace and ribbon, which were expensive and easily purloined, 261 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: and the boulder shoplifters favored the expensive silks which could 262 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: be quickly and profitably liquidated. And also one of the 263 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: largest categories for theft at the time for which women 264 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: were actually sent out to Australian penal colonies was the 265 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: theft of wearing apparel. So it's the same kind of 266 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: thing we're stealing other people's clothes, being obsessed with a 267 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: look or an image. But again, though that question, it 268 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: would Rachel Lee and similar Bling Ringers actually be kleptomaniacs 269 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: because there is that irresistible urge to steal items that 270 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: they don't generally need. All of the kids came from 271 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: well off families, well off enough that they certainly could 272 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: buy their own clothes, right Yeah, And I mean the 273 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: definition of cleptomania, like we said, is that irresistible urge 274 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: to steal items that you generally don't need. But they 275 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: weren't doing the other hallmark, which is stealing items of 276 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: little value. These items literally were very valuable, including just 277 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: wads of cash that they would find laying around sometimes. Um. 278 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: The Mayo Clinic describes it as an impulse controlled disorder, 279 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: usually under the umbrella of things like pyram mania, tricatillomania, 280 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: which is when you compulsively eat your own hair, compulsive gambling. 281 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 1: It's something where you cannot resist the temptation to perform 282 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: an act even though you know that it's harmful to 283 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: yourself or somebody else. And it's usually spontaneous and also 284 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: in public places. And that spontaneity makes me think that 285 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: a clinician would not diagnose the blingering with kleptomania because 286 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: they planned it out pretty carefully. I mean, they might 287 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: be kind of like celebrity obsessive um or envious of 288 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: a certain lifestyle, but I don't know that they would 289 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: be quite the same as a true cleptomaniac. And let's 290 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: not forget that again, this is not the same thing 291 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: as shoplifting. Fewer than five percent of shoplifters are actual 292 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: compulsive cleptomaniacs. Yeah, and even though there has been no 293 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: epidemiological study on kleptomania, which is kind of surprising considering 294 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: how casually we tend to throw out the term um, 295 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: some clinicians suggests that at least point six percent of 296 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: the general population would fall under the kleptomaniac category. Um. 297 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: But that shame and embarrassment that's often associated with the 298 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: cleptomania cycle of stealing and then like you did, Caroline, 299 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 1: you felt terrible about it and you were embarrassed. Um. 300 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: Something that maybe because of that, it's under estimated because 301 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: no one wants to report it. No one wants to 302 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: fuss up unless they actually got caught in the act 303 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: and had to write. Well, it's interesting though, I mean, 304 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: there is that cycle of symptoms, but it's Cleptomania is 305 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: actually linked to a lot of things. Like we said, 306 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: it's an impulse control disorder that does also have links 307 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: to eating disorders, but it also has linked to depression, 308 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: and researchers have found that a lot of times this 309 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: the theft itself is used to alleviate depression. Symptoms, and 310 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: patients with cleptomania that they've studied do report high lifetime 311 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: rates of oppression that usually ends up proceeding that behavior. Well, 312 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: it makes sense because it's usually a three part process 313 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: where a cleptomaniac will feel this increased tension where they 314 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: have to steal something, and so then they do it, 315 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: and they initially feel gratification pleasure like oh, they got 316 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: away with it, okay, But then the game, the guilt 317 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: and shame set in and it starts back all over again, 318 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: which certainly would play into depressive symptoms and probably feed depression. 319 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: And considering that pattern of the tension leading up to 320 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: it and the initial gratification even though you know you're 321 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: doing something that's probably not good for you. Cleptomania is 322 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: often related to addictive behaviors, and some people think that 323 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: stealing triggers a dopamine release, which is why you feel 324 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: so good. It's the same way where if you are 325 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: an alcoholic, for instance, there's that tension leading up to 326 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: you getting that first drink, and then you feel that 327 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 1: real least once you finally become intoxicated. Then afterwards the 328 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: guilt and shame right, and there is also an overarching 329 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: theory which I had never heard of before during this research. 330 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: There's a theory that it could have something to do 331 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: with problematic connections between different parts of the brain talking 332 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: to each other, and that possibly people with head injuries 333 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: could damage circuits between the orbital and frontal lobes of 334 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: the brain, causing low blood flow and like we said, 335 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: bad connections. So there could be like an actual physical 336 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: reason too that this is happening. Yeah, because the parts 337 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: of the brain that they think might be affected or 338 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: dysfunctional in a way are the parts involving information exchange. 339 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: And then the part of the brain the limbic system 340 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: that controls our moods and desires. So it's like something 341 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: is breaking down between um, what we're being compelled to 342 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: do and what we know we should not do, and 343 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: then how we are deriving uh senses of satisfaction and 344 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: things like that. Right, And if you look at the 345 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: co morbid condition rates, other impulse control disorders make up 346 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: twenty of co occurring conditions, substance use mood disorders forty 347 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: five to a hundred percent of people presenting with cleptomania, 348 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: and a lot of times too. This is something that 349 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: starts at a very young age. Even though it might 350 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: take a while for someone to get caught, it's not 351 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: uncommon for the compulsive thieving to begin at an age 352 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: as young as five. And Terence Shulman, who's the founder 353 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: and director of the Shulman Center for Compulsive Theft, Spending, 354 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: and Hoarding, says that most people start out stealing just 355 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: a little bit, usually in reaction to some sort of 356 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: emotional distress or as an act of rebellion right, something 357 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: like being overdisciplined, abused, or even shamed. And psychologist Jeff 358 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: Guardaer said that, yeah, it could be a sign of 359 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: emotional disturbance, lack of permanence in their lives, taking back 360 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: power from a strictly disciplined childhood. So maybe this is 361 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: just children. I mean, I have no idea why I 362 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: did it. I had a perfectly normal childhood, I mean 363 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: relatively well you still once, I don't think that would be. Yeah, 364 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know what compelled me to do 365 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: it then, because I absolutely did not need it. It's 366 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 1: not something I particularly wanted. It had no value to me. 367 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: It was just like it's there and I'm going to 368 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: take it, and it's going to be mine. But it 369 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: sounds like that classic thing of testing boundaries, just saying 370 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. 371 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: I know, it was like it was like a total 372 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: cartoon moment of like shifty eyes looking around grabbing it. 373 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: I don't even know if my parents noticed, but yeah, 374 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: I mean, it could just be that these children, maybe 375 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, feel a little out of control and 376 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: are seeking to do something to sort of bring a 377 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: sense of control back. But obviously if the behavior continues 378 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: and um becomes a cycle in someone's life, there are 379 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: treatments out there for it. UM. It's not uncommon for 380 00:22:54,119 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: kleptomania to be treated with antidepressants, mood stabilizers, anti seizure medications, 381 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: or addiction medications, depending on what the comorbidity is, because 382 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: usually you cleptomania isn't just existing in a stylo. There 383 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: are other things that are going on as well, which 384 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: is also why in addition to medication, psychotherapy is also 385 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: used pretty often. Right, But so you know, we've talked 386 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: about the symptoms and and what kleptomania kind of almost 387 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: forces you to do, and how that diagnosis came about. 388 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: And how it was used to defend people, but nowadays 389 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: it's really not that great of a legal defense because 390 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of just not taken that seriously. Yeah, I mean, 391 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: we should note that cleptomania has only been intermittently recognized 392 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: by the American Psychiatric Association that publishes the d s M, 393 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: which is the you know, the Bible as it's often called, 394 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: of mental illness. It's only been recognized off and on 395 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: since the nineteen fifties, and in nineteen sixty two it 396 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: was listed in the d s M as a supplementary term, 397 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: not a primary diagnosis, than in sixty eight it was 398 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: admitted altogether, and in the nine eighty it was reintroduced 399 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: as an impulse controlled disorder. So yeah, in light of 400 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: all that, there is a question of whether cleptomania is 401 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: a unique mental disorder that people suffer from, since it 402 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: often does co occur with other psychological disorders like addiction, 403 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: eating disorder, and depression. And it seems like what kleptomania 404 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: experts are trying to figure out at this point is 405 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: kind of what goes along with it because Terence Shulman, 406 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: who I referenced earlier, talks about how you know, stealing 407 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: can become addictive for many people, as it mimics addiction 408 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 1: to other negative behaviors like gambling. But the cleptomania by 409 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: itself shouldn't be seen as an addiction. It's more, he says, 410 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: the feelings that cause people to act out and do it, 411 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: that's what should be diagnosed, such as underlying anxiety, depression, 412 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: compulsion and o c D. Right, So, as far as 413 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: legal defenses go, I mean, cleptomania just doesn't seem like 414 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: it would get you very far well, And I wonder 415 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: once you start looking back at the roots of the 416 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: term and how it came about as really a safety 417 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: net for middle class women to keep them out of prisons, 418 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: and also tying in with that these antiquated Victorian notions 419 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: that women were simply inferior and and a lot of 420 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: female affliction in quotes was often just linked back to 421 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: some form of hysteria dealing with either sexual repression or 422 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: us not being able to have a baby in our 423 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: arms so that we wouldn't be able to steal lace 424 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: or something like that. I wonder too, though, and this 425 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: is a question for any experts out there, whether it's 426 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: even a term that should exist at all. I mean, 427 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: it's obviously an impulse control problem. It's a it's a disorder, 428 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: But I feel like the term has become it's so 429 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: has such a loaded and incorrect history, right, Like, I 430 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: mean like it obviously seems more like a sub type 431 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: of impulse Well, it is, it's a subtype of impulse 432 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: control disorder. But maybe you should just say that person 433 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: has an impulse control disorder that causes them to steal, 434 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: or to gamble, or to pull their hair out. And 435 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: kind of on the reverse of this, um, I think 436 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: it seems like a lot more attention needs to be 437 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: paid to that potential gender bias that if a woman 438 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: is caught stealing, she's a lot more likely to be 439 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: psychiatrically evaluated. So why why don't we offer the same 440 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: thing to men, because obviously it's it's probably happening for 441 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: them as well. It could just be like that division 442 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: between middle class women and poor women in nineteenth century England. Well, 443 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: and that's I mean, that gets into a whole conversation 444 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: about how we view who a criminal is. Right, we 445 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: just assume men are doing things maliciously, that they're committing crimes, 446 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: whereas oh, well that woman must be mentally ill, yeah, 447 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 1: or she you know it can't be helped in some 448 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: way because she must be driven because of destitution, or 449 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: she has mouths defeed or something like that. So it's 450 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: funny like, as I was reading these these historical perspectives 451 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: on kleptomania, my overarching thought was, oh, good, so women 452 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: couldn't even have agency in their own crimes. That's good. 453 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: So basically we're arguing for the hammer of the law 454 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: to come down harder on women. No, no, Well, it's 455 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: always uh interested to hear from listeners. UM, if you 456 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: have experienced kleptomania, if it's something that you deal with, 457 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: definitely let us know. Well, we will protect your anonymity. UM, 458 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 1: but I would be curious to know if any of 459 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: the jibs with UM someone's experience with it. UM. And 460 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: also I hope that those historical tidbits about kleptomania and 461 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: Jane Austin's aunt of those that was as fun for 462 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: you to learn as it was for being Caroline to learn. 463 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: So send us your thoughts about kleptomania, shop lifting, thievery, 464 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: the blingering. Has anybody's seen it? I want to see it. Uh. 465 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: You can send your emails to mom Stubb at Discovery 466 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: dot com, or you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast, 467 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: or of course you can send us a message on 468 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: Facebook as well. And we've got a couple of messages 469 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: to read when we get back from a quick break. 470 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: And now back to some letters, Kristen. Here is one 471 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: from Amanda. She says, I loved your podcast on seeing 472 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: through glasses stereotypes because I am the poster child for 473 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: dateless nearsightedness. My sister, however, who needs no such help 474 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: with her vision, has had no such trouble. No complaints here, though, 475 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: true to your findings, I am more often stereotyped as 476 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: intelligent looking and more capable than my glasses less friends. 477 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: Next time a guy catches my eye, I suppose I'll 478 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: ditch my frames for contacts, though I'm still holding out 479 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: for a saintly mail who can see worth even in 480 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: those cursed with horrible vision. Amanda, don't ditch your glasses 481 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: for boys. You do what makes you happy, slash able 482 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: to see. Men will make passes at girls who wear glasses. Well, 483 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: I've got one here from Michelle, and the subject line 484 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: is douching can be fun not, she writes, and and 485 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: just just a warning out there, she's about to talk 486 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: about va giants. So here we go. Michelle says, hello there. Oh, 487 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: how I wish I had found your podcast a month ago. 488 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: I could have saved myself a lot of uncomfortable times. 489 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: I just found you guys this past week and have 490 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: been listening to some podcasts from way back when, including 491 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: one on douching. My mom was supremely uncomfortable taking me 492 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: just to buy bras, so of course asking her about 493 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: douching was a way out of the question. So I 494 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: found out about it through my husband. I had a 495 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: discharge that smelled a little iffy for a couple of days, 496 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: and we couldn't afford a trip at the doctor 's office. 497 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: Asking my mom for advice was not going to happen. 498 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: But thankfully his family dynamics are very different than mine, 499 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: he had no problem asking his mom. She recommended douching. 500 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: She's been doing it all of her life to counter 501 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: her frequent urinary tract infections. So, having no idea whatsoever 502 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: what I was getting into, I decided to douche lo 503 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: and behold. Two days later, I was blessed with my 504 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: very first urinary tract infection while chugging cranberry juice. I 505 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: decided to finally research douching and found the same results 506 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: that you guys reported. Never again will I try anything 507 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: involving my body without some extra research. Michelle, I'm so 508 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: sorry to hear that you had to go through with that. 509 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: And as I was reading the email in the note 510 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: about how uh your mother in law has douched all 511 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: of her life to counter her frequent urinary tract infections, 512 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: I think I know why she gets frequent urinary tract infections. Yeah, 513 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: I think a single trip to the doctor for a diagnosis, 514 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: maybe some antibiotics, get get a nice check up and 515 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: a phaps. Me are like, let's not well, as she 516 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: knows though, you know, she couldn't afford a trip to 517 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: a darkner. I'm talking about her mother in law. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 518 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: I'm I'm saying that that that years long cycle that 519 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: her mother in law has been experiencing, Like, why would 520 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: you want to continue experiencing that? Well, because a lot, 521 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: as we talked about in the podcast, a lot of 522 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: a lot of women don't know because their mother handed 523 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: it down to them as the way to keep their 524 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: vaginas clean. But as we have set outen on this podcast, 525 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: downe with a douche, just say no the douche ladies. 526 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: Why it still exists? I it bobbles my mind? Yeah, um, 527 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: but you're not alone though according to the US Health 528 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: and Human Services of Women Ages, I believe still douche. 529 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: So break the cycle. Break the cycle, ladies, and gent's 530 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: just just so no. All right. So that's it. If 531 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: you have any comments about douching, glad, the mania, or 532 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: anything else, uh, send us an email. Mom Stuff Discovery 533 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: dot com is our email at us. You can also 534 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast. You can like us 535 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: on Facebook send us a message there. 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