1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:01,920 Speaker 1: Alex cladd Seine, Thanks for sitting down. 2 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. Yeah, I love. 3 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Talking to you. I think what you're doing, I mean, 4 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: your your mission is the most important mission. Right at 5 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: the end of the day. It's about freedom, baby, Freedom, 6 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Freedom go up, Freedom go up. That should be the 7 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: goal human flourishment. 8 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: Well, it's not possible without en GU, but I do 9 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: think FGU is the goal. NG is the way we 10 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: get there. 11 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 1: Number going up is the way to get freedom to 12 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: go up. 13 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: I mean, if bitcoin was a dollar forever, I don't 14 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: I don't think we'd have the possibility to change the world. 15 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Is that because we wouldn't have as much adoption. 16 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 2: I think that if you only had a limited value 17 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: to bitcoin, it would not be able to replace the 18 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: fiat system. It wouldn't be able to replace the functions 19 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 2: of money. It wouldn't be able to replace central banking 20 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: because if. 21 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: The value wasn't high enough, then the small units wouldn't 22 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: be enough to transact. 23 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: That like core dynamic of bitcoin that's so unique and 24 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: interesting is the fact that it turns self interest or 25 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: greed basically into freedom. And I think if you had 26 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: like a fixed value that was low in purchasing power, 27 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 2: and it didn't have potential to increase this incentive wouldn't exist. Like, basically, 28 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: if it was stuck in its early days forever, it 29 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 2: would be a niche project that a bunch of US 30 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: cipherpunks and freedom fighters and human rights activists would find interesting, 31 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: but the average person would have no real Yeah, it 32 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: would be kind of like PGP, right, like PGP works well, 33 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: has not been hacked by the government, but it's kind 34 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: of a pain to use, and it didn't really attract 35 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: a massive audience even though it existed for fifteen twenty years. 36 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: It wasn't until they could actually package into that to 37 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: kind of technology, into things like signal that it became widespread. 38 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: So I think that if you don't have NGU, your 39 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: capacity for FGU would would remain like deminimous. It would 40 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: be pretty minimal. I mean, it would still be cool 41 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: and useful, but it would be more like manarrow. I mean, 42 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: it would be a system that would probably run out 43 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: of steam. The decentralization wouldn't be as strong. There wouldn't 44 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: be as an incentive for enough people to run their 45 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: own nodes. There wouldn't be as big of incentive for 46 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: the miners like none of it works without NGU, but 47 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: it's not. But I think the NGU is the is, 48 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: the means, the end is FGU. That's that's my vision 49 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: of it. At least. 50 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: I write a weekly Bitcoin news email newsletter and at 51 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: the top I have a quote on there and it 52 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: says that bitcoin is the great bait and switch. Yeah, 53 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: it pulls you in for the n GU and it 54 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: switches you into the. 55 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: You know, I mean, yeah, what's that quote from Neval. 56 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: It's like like a like a like it's like a 57 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: freedom tool dressed up as a get rich quicks game 58 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 2: or something something like that, right, and you know. 59 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: It's a bait and switch. We come for the n GU. 60 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: No, and after tiers in a bear market, I think 61 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: it's fair to question, you know, that part of it 62 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: diminishes during a bear market. But ultimately I always say 63 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: price is the greatest teacher. We can do all the 64 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: work we can about bitcoin education, and a lot of 65 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: great work it's done in bear markets. Like trust me, 66 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: there's amazing stuff happening, but there is no replacement for 67 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: the massive amount of interests that flows into bitcoin when 68 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 2: there's a bull market. Isn't And this is because of 69 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: ngu like there's self interest. The cool part is due 70 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: to Bitcoin's incentive mechanism, the self interest translates to more 71 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: freedom for everybody else. This is usually not the case 72 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: for things like It just doesn't really work like that. 73 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: So even capitalism like a whole at a global level 74 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 2: has been totally corrupted and doesn't really work like this, 75 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: Like more riches and property rights and resources for Americans 76 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: directly is the result of impoverishing poor people in another 77 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: country in the current global capitalist scheme. Bitcoin doesn't work 78 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: like that. It's much more kind of open and neutral, 79 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: which is why I'm so excited about it. 80 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was thinking when we came down 81 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: into this bear market from our sixty nine thousand pig 82 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: to whatever you know, fifteen twenty thousand. But just like Facebook, 83 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: stock also was down seventy five percent, but the Facebook, 84 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: their network still worked the same way. Even though stock 85 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: went down and the price of bitcoin dropped from seventy 86 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 1: to twenty, but the bitcoin network was still resistant. 87 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, but like, think about a country like page like like. 88 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: But for new adoption, like it would work for people 89 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: in North Korea. They could still keep their money and 90 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: transact it, but it wouldn't attract to your. 91 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: Point, what's the name of the company where people have 92 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: like a gym in their house, a Peloton? Oh yeah, 93 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: so maybe for Facebook now, but but long run, it's 94 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 2: sort of more like Peloton. Like if Peloton stock drops 95 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: ninety percent, like they're going to go under. Yeah, Like, 96 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: so it presents a terminal risk to the system. Yeah. 97 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: Like like if bitcoin, if the price of bitcoin dropped 98 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: ninety nine point nine percent tomorrow never recovered, it would die. Sure, Okay, 99 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: so we know it's not going to do at but 100 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: like that's why it can survive, That's why it can 101 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: bring freedom to more people, is because of the incentives 102 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: at play. 103 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about what you just said. 104 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: It was kind of something I've been thinking about when 105 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: I listen to your talk yesterday, which I liked. But 106 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: you just said that kind of capitalism has been perverted 107 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: in such a way that American kind of has built 108 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: wealth while impoverishing other nations. Yes, and so that's certainly 109 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: part of your work I want to talk about with 110 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: IMF and kind of the new book that you're talking 111 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: about with the Hidden Repression is the new book. So 112 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: your books are great I look forward to them. So anyway, 113 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: for everyone listening, check out that Hidden Repression new book 114 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: and the way that the financial system has been set up. 115 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: It's set up in a way, and you broke it 116 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: down brilliantly, and I want you to kind of break 117 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: that down for us again. How these nations are forced 118 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: to only provide goods that the US wants in the 119 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: dollars and they can't do what's best for them, and 120 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: so that's kind of a way that it impoverishes them. 121 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: But if we started just from a higher level, and 122 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: if it wasn't for corrupt money, because goods and services 123 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: so much cheaper those other nations, they don't have much 124 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: going on there. By taking jobs, whether that be manufacturing 125 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: jobs or technical jobs, even though we're paying them a 126 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: very low wage, it's a good wage for that area, 127 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't that actually be taking prosperity there? But it's the 128 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: financial stem that then turns that around. And actually, yeah, so. 129 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: If we had a neutral monetary language for the world 130 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: that was consistent, I think there would be much more 131 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 2: equal exchange is what you call it in international economics, 132 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 2: unequal exchange. You have equal exchange. I think if the 133 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: monetary system wasn't corrupted. Then you'd get much closer to 134 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: the ideal of how people like John Locke thought of 135 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: international trade, where like your country would build what you're 136 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: good at, and then you could exchange that for other 137 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: things you're not good at. That is not how it works. 138 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: Like the United States aggressively subsidizes things that we really 139 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 2: shouldn't be making and crowds out the ability of other 140 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: nations to do those things. It is not a free 141 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: market at all. It's completely controlled. I mean, it's like 142 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 2: the bond market, or like the stock market in Japan. 143 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: The stock market in Japan can't be considered a capitalist 144 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 2: if the government owns fifty percent of right. The bond 145 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: marketing United States cannot be considered capitalist if the government 146 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: bought trillions of dollars of bonds to backstop it. I mean, 147 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: it could be considered a hybrid capitalist. I love what 148 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: you said, but it can't be fully capitalist. 149 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: Because because capitalism requires free. 150 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: In voluntary stut that being said, we have to then, 151 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: on the other hand, empathize with I think like people 152 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: around the world when over the last seventy years they 153 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: saw a battle between the communist Soviet Union and the 154 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 2: capitalist the United States. Right, So even though you and 155 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: I know that you know this is not capitalism, I 156 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 2: can't fault them for calling the system capitalism. I mean, 157 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: these are just semantics, but semantics are important. So the 158 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: system that people get angry with that they call capitalism 159 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: is very is a very corrupted form of capitalism in 160 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: my view. But it does raise the question to the 161 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: point that it's not even capital right, But of course 162 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: it's the not true Scotsman thing. It's like, this is 163 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: our lived experience. We don't have another we don't have 164 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: a counterfactual. We only have what we have. Can market 165 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: democracies thrive without exploiting other countries. We don't know the 166 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: answer to that, because there is no world where that happens. 167 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: My belief is if we can adjust the monetary system, 168 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: that it's possible, because then all of a sudden, people 169 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: are earning I mean, you have this arbitrage thing where 170 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 2: like all of a sudden, if people are earning bitcoin 171 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: here and they're earning bitcoin here, like it kind of 172 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: like tightens up a lot faster, Like if you're earning 173 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 2: naira and then you're earning dollars, and these markets can 174 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: be divided and you can squeeze one and not the other. 175 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: This allows for wage deflation, Like it's all about achieving 176 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: wage deflation in some places to protect wages in other places, 177 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 2: and to produce inflation in other places. And if you 178 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: have two hundred currencies, it's very doable. Of one currency, 179 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: I think it's much harder. Of course, we're speculating, but 180 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: I know you and I both know that individuals are 181 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: escaping the system through bitcoin, right, so we know that 182 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 2: individuals can escape. Well, then of course the next question is, well, 183 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: can entire systems escape? We don't know, but it's certainly 184 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: worth discussing. 185 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: So let's back it up and your book Hidden Repression. 186 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: So there's this hidden mechanism, this hidden force that causes 187 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: this repression. And I think the way that you frames 188 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: up is it really starts with the IMF and the 189 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: World Bank. And now I'd like for you to kind 190 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: of break down how the IMF and the World Bank 191 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: does this. But before we do, you know, I find 192 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: to have this chart that it's kind of like an 193 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: org chart of the world, and it kind of puts 194 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: the BIS at the top, then like the IMF kind 195 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: of World Bank below that. But now it seems like 196 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: over the last couple of years the central banks have 197 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: started to kind of break out past World Bank. But 198 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: we'll talk about that later, but frame up for us 199 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: the picture of the IMF and how they use this 200 00:09:58,440 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: hidden repression. 201 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: Look, the international monetary system is vast and complicated and 202 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 2: has a lot of actors in it. I focus on 203 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: the IMFM World Bank because they are arguably the two 204 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: most important financial institutions in the world, certainly between nineteen 205 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: sixty and the nineteen nineties and probably still today. 206 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, but probably still. 207 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: I mean, when the United States and his allies gathered 208 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: in New Hampshire in forty four, when they knew they 209 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 2: were going to win World War two, they got together 210 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: to think about what's the new monetary system going to 211 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: look like, and how can we prevent the nineteen thirties 212 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: from happening again. They didn't want to break down in 213 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 2: global trade. They didn't want autarchy. They wanted the spice 214 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 2: to flow. They wanted everything to be flowing. Okay, so 215 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: with the new currency that the US set up that 216 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: the rest of the world didn't want. By the way, 217 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: the rest of the world wanted a more sort of 218 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: democratic system, but we had the most gold, so we 219 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: got to have our say, and we said, no, it's 220 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 2: going to be you're all going to use dollars and 221 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: you're going to redeem them at thirty five dollars an ounce. 222 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: So in that system, there were pegged exchange rates, so 223 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: you know, your currency was allowed to fluctuate within a band, right, 224 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: and the IMF was set up as a lender of 225 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,239 Speaker 2: last resort to basically be like a stabilization fund for currencies. 226 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: So if a currency started to like move out of 227 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 2: that band, the IMF would would go over there and 228 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 2: put that fire out. And you know what, that wasn't 229 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: like a necessarily a bad idea. I mean, we were 230 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: basically still on a sound money standard or version of it, right, 231 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: because gold was still underlying the dollar. You could redeem 232 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: it for a certain rate and that rate was controlled. Now, 233 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: eventually that proved to be pretty quickly, quickly untenable. Like 234 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: that lasted about twenty five years, and really, I mean 235 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: it really it never. 236 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: Really even worked well by fifty eight. 237 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 2: Between forty four and fifty eight, there were tons of 238 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: exchange controls, so it wasn't even really working. But like 239 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: between fifty eight and seventy one. You know, we basically 240 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: had this like Bretonwood System will say, but you know, 241 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 2: after about twelve thirteen years, it put nixcent took us off. 242 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: But the point is, at the beginning it was designed 243 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: to be like an exchange rate stabilizer to keep trade going. Again, 244 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: if a country had a balance of payments crisis and 245 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: it was not exporting enough to sustain itself, it could borrow, okay, 246 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: and then hopefully the idea would be within a few 247 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 2: years they could fix the problem and then pay it back. 248 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: That was the idea. Not necessarily against that idea. World 249 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: Bank was designed to provide infrastructure funding in places where 250 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: private capital just didn't have the appetite. So this is 251 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: where we were talking war torn Europe in Japan. Again, 252 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: not necessarily opposed to that. I think these things can 253 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: exist in a sound money standard. You could have an 254 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 2: international lender of last resort, you could have a Global 255 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: Development Bank. 256 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: They can give them the benefit of the doubt. Most 257 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: of these things start out with good intention. 258 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like I don't know if they were I mean, 259 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: they certainly were imperial intent. I mean they were intentions 260 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: to keep the United States and its allies on top. 261 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: But they weren't necessarily like in any sense in moral 262 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: they made sense. But what ends up happening is Nixon 263 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: takes us off gold standard and we're no longer on 264 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: pegged exchange rates. So a lot of economists at the 265 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: time said, well, why do we need the IMF. And 266 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 2: what happened was the IMF essentially pivot did as did 267 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: the bank. They pivoted away from stabilizing exchange rates and 268 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: providing funding for infrastructure in what we now call industrial 269 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 2: economies rich countries to providing credit to the impoverished parts 270 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 2: of the world, to the developing world, to the third world, 271 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it, the global South. That 272 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 2: pivot took place from like the early sixties through the 273 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: mid seventies, and it almost was like a total pivot, 274 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: like you really had such you had a massive amount 275 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: of imfimal bank activity shift into the global South. Okay, 276 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: so these institutions were now like doing something else, and 277 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: like thesis of my book is essentially that what they 278 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: ended up doing, whether it was conscious or not, was 279 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 2: replicating the what's called the colonial drain. So the point 280 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: of colonialism was to drain resources from other places to 281 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: sustain the quality of life at home. So for British 282 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: that meant like getting tea and petrol and oil and 283 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: gold and timber and whatever at very very cheap rates 284 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: by going in stealing it or exploiting it somewhere else 285 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 2: with violence bringing it back home. Okay, that Spanish conquest 286 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 2: of Latin America, like that, it's kind of been the 287 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: way they I mean, you know poor you know, the 288 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 2: strong exploit through the strong exploit the week. I mean, 289 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 2: it's it's a history, it's a historical thing. It's always 290 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: been that way, but like this is how it played out. Now, 291 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: colonialism in this way became untenable in the twentieth century. 292 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it just became unacceptable for various reasons, and 293 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: it basically died out by nineteen sixty. And that's known 294 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: as like the end of colonialism is basically around nineteen sixty. 295 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: So that military colonials, Yeah, that's what I'm saying. 296 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: So now you had monetary colonialism. So like the dynamic though, 297 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: like still wanted to exist, like these countries and economy 298 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: still wanted to take advantage of these other countries. So 299 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: what they ended up doing is replacing the sword with debt. 300 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: So you placed the worship and the bayonet and the 301 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: gun with debt. And now what was happening is through 302 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: the IMF and World Bank, the rich creditor name could 303 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: extend loans to poorer nations and in that way exploit 304 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: and repress them. And it was just sort of sort 305 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: of like this machine for harvesting resources, natural resources. 306 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: To borrow is serve into the lender. So they kind of. 307 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: Exactly so like you would harvest resources as much as 308 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: possible without letting any trickle down to the surrounding society 309 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: A or B. You would do agricultural engineering, so you 310 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 2: would like change what these countries grow to focus on 311 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: certain monoculture crops that that we want, and then that 312 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: would prevent them from growing the food that they need 313 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: so that they'd become dependent on us. So it was 314 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: like sort of engineering dependency. So this is why Africa, 315 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 2: for example, imports eighty five percent of its food, which 316 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: is crazy. It should be totally self sustained, it should 317 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: be an exporter of food like net. It's a net 318 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: importer vastly, and that's because partially US foreign policy, you know, 319 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 2: dictated it, like we wanted to have food sovereignty and 320 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 2: to control food so that we could use it as 321 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: a weapon, and we did this several times during the 322 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: Cold War. We would basically turn off wheat or whatever 323 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: to a country and starve it like to make it 324 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 2: bend to our will. We did this in Bangladesh in 325 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: the seventies. You can look it up. It's harrowing. So basically, 326 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: you know, the IMF and World Bank kind of were 327 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: very lucrative for the West in three main ways. I mean, 328 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: a lot of libertarians especially would criticize the IMF and 329 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: World Bank back in the nineties, and they would say 330 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: it was wasteful, it's a waste of tax payer money. 331 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: It was not a waste of tax payer of money. 332 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: It was very effective at aiding America and its allies. 333 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: And it does so in three main ways. Number one 334 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: is the interest. So these are high interest rate loans 335 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: that created really large flow. And as anyone who borrows knows, 336 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 2: eventually you have to pay back more than the principle. 337 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: So you had all these dictators borrowing one hundred million, 338 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: five hundred million, a billion dollars. Those countries winded up 339 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: paying back to US five million, a billion, a billion 340 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: a half dollars over the lifetime of the loan plus interest. Right, 341 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: so you have like earnings coming in and you have 342 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 2: a flow coming in based off interest. And again these 343 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 2: were back then pretty high interest rate loans, payday loans, 344 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 2: the predatory lending basically. So that's that's like, and the 345 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: IMF and the World Bank and all of the little 346 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: arms make billions of dollars a year doing this. That 347 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: sort of sustains them. The second thing, though, is the 348 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 2: resources and the labor. So as of twenty fifteen, there's 349 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 2: one study that indicated that the industrial countries, the rich countries, 350 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: we got about half of our resources and thirty percent 351 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: or so, about a third of our labor from the 352 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: global South. Now, let's just think about a world where 353 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: that ended tomorrow. So let's say tomorrow, all of a sudden, 354 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 2: we had half the resources and we we were missing 355 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: the cheapest one third of our labor. Like on the 356 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: spectrum of labor, what would happen. We'd have massifulation because 357 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: we'd have shortages of goods. We'd have way less goods, 358 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 2: and like we wouldn't have enough to go around, and 359 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 2: our labor or the wages we'd have to pay the 360 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: labors be way more so you can start to realize 361 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 2: how this SUBSETI is our way of life. Like globalization 362 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: has really in many ways been a subsidy for Western civilization. 363 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: I mean it just the way it is. Number three. 364 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: If interest is number one and cheap labor and resources 365 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: is number two, I mean number three is political control. 366 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 2: I mean again, we would literally shape these economies. So 367 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: it's not just that we would get cheap labor and resources, 368 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: but we would make them dependent on us. And that's 369 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: what I was talking about the other day in terms 370 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: of like, by setting up the monetary system the way 371 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 2: it is, we would like make sure that certain things 372 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: were priced only in dollars, like obviously hydrocarbons being like 373 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: the major thing. So if you could only get oil 374 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: in dollars, if you're a little country, and you know, 375 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: I think the mmtiers really get this wrong. They always 376 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 2: say it's not a big deal. You can just buy dollars. 377 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: Oh you want to try doing that. Let's say you 378 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: have a week currency. You want to go out and 379 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 2: try buying dollars. 380 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: You can sell You're to sell your currency to. 381 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: Buy print your currency to buy dollars. Your currency is 382 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: getting tank. It doesn't work. Plus there's often not like 383 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: deep liquid pairs, like trading markets for like these random currencies, 384 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 2: So it's not really an option to buy dollars to 385 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: buy oil. That's why these countries have to do exports. 386 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: You have to earn the dollars. You have to sell 387 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: something to the US or its allies for a hard currency, 388 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: then use that to buy the oil. So you want 389 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 2: to just basically to continue the point, to close the point, 390 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: like if you want oil or industrial tractors or fertilizer 391 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: or whatever, you can't use gunna and CDs. You have 392 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: to export something like coffee and earn dollars in your 393 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: foreign exchange account, and then from there you can buy 394 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,479 Speaker 2: the oil or the CDs. So this is a completely 395 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: different paradigm than with like America, where we can just 396 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: print dollars to buy anything we want. So this is 397 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: why there's like these vast inequalities in the monetary system. 398 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: There was a there was a report that China put 399 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: out the Government of China, and I forget which division 400 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: I use it in a video, but call off the 401 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: top of my head, but they basically pointed to this 402 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: exact situation, said the US is lots of things you 403 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: used to do wrong. But one of them is that they 404 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: print dollars. They said in the report, it costs the 405 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: United States seventeen cents to make one hundred dollars bill, 406 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: but these countries have to give up one hundred dollars 407 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: massive seeds ridge to get to get well. 408 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: Then the other thing is so you have the three benefits, right, 409 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 2: so you have interest, cheap labor and resources and political 410 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 2: control like that. Like if anyone says the IMF World 411 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: Bank are a wasteful or that it's a waste of 412 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: tax payer money, they're not. They're missing the big point. Yes, 413 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 2: it's true they're very bureaucratic, corrupt, and they're not very efficient. 414 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 2: That is true, But then you're missing the deeper point 415 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: that they are absolutely self interested organizations. Sure, like we have, 416 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: our advancement has not been in spite of these things. 417 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: It has very much been because of them. They today 418 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 2: remain so important. I mean, the IMF is a trillion 419 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 2: dollar organization and the World Bank is still the largest 420 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: development bank in the world. I mean, we may hear 421 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: about them less than news, and there are other really 422 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 2: important institutions like the WTO and the BIS, et cetera. 423 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: But these remain so so important to the Bretton Woods 424 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: economy as such, I mean until it crumbles. I mean, 425 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 2: they are pillars of the world order, right. China has 426 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: tried to copy them, and the CCP has seen what. 427 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: We did sort of like their Belt and Road. 428 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, we want to not so much. The 429 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: IMF they've done some of that, but most of it's 430 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: sort of World Bank style infrastructure funding. They've done a 431 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: ton of it, but it's dried up in the last 432 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 2: year and a half or so and. 433 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: Started to backfire. 434 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,239 Speaker 2: Well they do they don't mint the reserve currency, so 435 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: if a country goes bankrupt, it's harder for them to 436 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 2: just write another loan, you know, it's harder for their 437 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: banking system to do that. They can't just like make 438 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: reserves up like we can. So they've tried to copy it. 439 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: I would expect any regional power to try and copy 440 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 2: this thing. Sure, like you know, so long as that 441 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 2: these like multivari fiat currency system exists. But like the 442 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: point is, they can't even replicate what we've done, and 443 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 2: it's had such a tremendous impact on the world. I mean, 444 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: it's uh, it's it's it's tough because when these when 445 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: these countries take these loans that we benefit from, we 446 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: ask them to do something called structural adjustment. So these 447 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 2: loans have conditions that range from like raising taxes, shrinking 448 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 2: the banking sector, raising interest rates, devaluing the currency, ending 449 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 2: all subsidies on food and energy. So basically, like we 450 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: would call it austerity, or like putting your country into 451 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: a recession, and that is done so that the exports 452 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 2: become more competitive that we can buy the exports for cheaper. 453 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 2: Like if those countries, if their wages are too high 454 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: and they have too much social security and free healthcare 455 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: and education, then we want then then the stuff they 456 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: make will be too expensive for us to buy, right, 457 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: so we need to make sure that it's cheap sta chea. 458 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 2: So like we don't want any social benefits for anybody 459 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: in that country, and we want them to be cheap 460 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 2: as hell. 461 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: Which is a little counterintuitive because you think you'd want 462 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: them to do better so they can actually pay back 463 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: the loan. 464 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of interesting, sort of paradoxical 465 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 2: stuff here because like, yeah, a, in a classic free market, 466 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 2: you would think that that like subsidies on food and energy, 467 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: are a bad idea, and in general they are a 468 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 2: bad idea. But you can't go from if you can, 469 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: I mean they do it all the time. It's very 470 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 2: hard to go from a society where food and energy 471 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: is subsidized to the next day it being really expensive, right, 472 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 2: Like that that's what the IMF would do, and people 473 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 2: would just starve. I mean, like it's not a natural 474 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: course of development, right, same thing with property, Like like 475 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: one would think that nationalization is a really bad idea, right, 476 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 2: but one thing that would happen is that like these 477 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:51,479 Speaker 2: countries would develop industry and then like due to IMF policy, 478 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: they would end up selling like massive dams or whatever 479 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: off for like firesale prices to foreign ownership. So one 480 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: thing is like thinking about the economy in a domestic sense, 481 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 2: I just think the global the world is a big system, 482 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: and it's a little more nuanced than that. Like, like 483 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 2: there are interesting paradoxes when it comes to like free 484 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 2: markets in as much as there isn't a free market, 485 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: so everything is like stacked against us, Like we would 486 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: never think about it this way. So Britain, Germany, France, 487 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: United States, Japan, we're not doing austerity at home, like 488 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: we never like, like it's not like we dictate to 489 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: Germany that they devalue their currency and cut like social subsidies. 490 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: That's only done towards poor countries. So total hypocrisy. Like 491 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 2: Britain has currently a price cap on energy in Britain 492 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: right now, and they've always had all kinds of free 493 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: healthcare and stuff like that, but they would go to 494 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: like little countries like Sri Lanka and demand that they 495 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: end their subsidies for rice. So like in theory, yes, 496 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 2: all subsidies that distort free market stuff I think are wrong, 497 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 2: but like what you ended up having was rich countries 498 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: being highly subsidized and poor countries having nothing. So this 499 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 2: perpetrates and keeps this cycle going of them becoming poor 500 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: and poor and needing to borrow more and more for 501 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: us from us. 502 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: And keeping the cost of goods and services low so. 503 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 2: That we can have it for cheaper. Yeah, and this 504 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 2: is why you see the external debt of poor countries 505 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 2: go exponential from the beginning of the Fiat age. And 506 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 2: I just think I don't think bitcoin entirely fixes this. 507 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: I just think that if you have a neutral, open 508 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: monetary language for the world, then we don't have such disparities, 509 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: and wages are going to be like a little tighter 510 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 2: than they are now, and you're going to have a 511 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: more equal exchange. And further, if bitcoin is the reserve currency, 512 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 2: it's instead of the dollar, then like wealthy countries don't 513 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 2: have the exorbitant privilege of just printing it, and the 514 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 2: poor countries can just turn if they want to. It 515 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: may not make sense for everybody, but if you have 516 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 2: cheap electricity, you can just print bitcoin. I mean not 517 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 2: print it, but you can investigate and make it without 518 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,160 Speaker 2: permission from the world power, which is key a current only. 519 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 2: Like like countries that don't agree with the United States 520 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: cannot get dollars or it's hard for them to get dollars. 521 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: And you would say that they could do that now, 522 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: they could print bitcoin if they had the energy. They 523 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: could also grow bananas, rice, wheat, But what you're saying 524 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: is that the US says, no, you can't grow wheat. 525 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: Well, my general I'm just always changing, you know, involving 526 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: my perspectives. But I think that at the moment what 527 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 2: makes the most sense is like if we do end 528 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: up having a bitcoin standard, like like mining won't be 529 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: for every country, like mining is as you know, it's 530 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 2: like a very expensive it's not like a hugely profitable 531 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 2: necessarily industry all the time. It could be very unprofitable. 532 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's very specialized. And you think of it kind 533 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 2: of like gold mining, like not every country, like not 534 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 2: every country does gold mining at scale. I mean, part 535 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 2: of that is just because there's not gold everywhere, But 536 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 2: in general, I think what you could expect is like 537 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 2: countries that have cheap energy will do bitcoin mining. Countries 538 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: that don't, like maybe like Japan or something, they will 539 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 2: like provide services and they will like export stuff and 540 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: they'll by bitcoin with their reserves. So I think it's 541 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: just kind of I mean, it may look a little 542 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: more close to like kind of the gold standard, where 543 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: like countries had a pile of gold and like when 544 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 2: it drew down too much, like it weakened their currency. 545 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: Like I do think we'll go through a time where 546 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: we have essentially fiat currencies that are that are probably 547 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: backed in some way by bitcoin or like a bitcoin 548 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 2: dominant reserve. 549 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 1: When the IMF was founded, John Mayer Keans wanted to 550 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: not be on the dollar standard. He wanted to be 551 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: on a bank or yeah, he wanted to have been 552 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: sort of like that reserve. 553 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: Well, the Bank Corp was just supposed to be like 554 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 2: a basket of currencies, right, so it was supposed to 555 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: have more of a globally democratic character to it. But 556 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 2: he was vetoed so the US got its way. And yeah, 557 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 2: I mean I again, I think that it's possible we 558 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: evolve into kind of like a neo Breaton Wood system 559 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: here where there are like probably fiat currencies pegged to 560 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: some sort of redeemable rate of bitcoin. I think it's 561 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 2: possible that eventually we even moved beyond that, and it's 562 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: possible we just use bitcoin as money. But I mean 563 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 2: we're not. We're just nowhere near there technically, like technology 564 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 2: technologically yet. Yeah, and you have to you look at 565 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: like Britain. I mean, Britain started to fail as an 566 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 2: empire a long time before the sterling failed as the 567 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 2: world reserve currency, so it's very sticky. So I also 568 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: think you can see a world where like bitcoin moons, 569 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: but like people still use the dollar for stuff. 570 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: Sure, well, in the pounds sterling, it was a thirty 571 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: to forty year process. Here we are eighty nine years later, 572 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: and it's still the top three currents. 573 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: A world bitcoin could like explode in price and interest 574 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: could go way up and you could have much more 575 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: global adoption. But like the technology of daily payments could 576 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: could lag. I mean, you could still end up using 577 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: dollars for a long time. I think eventually they like 578 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: it would they go obsolete. I mean this is like 579 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: tears law, like, and I think people should really study 580 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: dollarizing countries if they want to know what this is 581 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 2: going to look like. It's not going to be Gresham's 582 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: law forever. It's not going to be. I mean, it's 583 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 2: it's it's it's it's not going to be, even though 584 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 2: the government's going to try and force it. Like merchants 585 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: are just gonna they're not gonna want your fiat eventually 586 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: and then that's gonna spur circular economy. But until that day, 587 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, most people will save bitcoin because if 588 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 2: they can, because like why wouldn't you You try at 589 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 2: least you might ideologically want to spend something, which I 590 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: think is wonderful and important. But like, ultimately, I don't 591 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: think that the needle's going to move for the majority 592 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: of people on what you do with your bitcoin until 593 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 2: merchants start basically saying providing a premium or like basically 594 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: a discount for bitcoin and a premium on fiat. It's 595 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 2: kind of like if you like, some people will say 596 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: today they prefer cash to bank money. They want the cash, right. Yeah. 597 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,959 Speaker 2: I think in the future they'll even offer a discount sometimes, 598 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 2: right if you pay me like like a like a 599 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: like a contractor at your house, if you're doing your house, 600 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: they may offer to do it for a little less 601 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 2: if you're paying cash. So that's when I think you 602 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 2: start to see in the future, Oh, I'll do it. 603 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: I'll do it for a little less if you pay 604 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: me a bitcoin, right, And then eventually it just becomes like, oh, sorry, 605 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 2: I don't take fiat, I don't take dollars, I take bitcoin. 606 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: I just think that that process may take decades, Like 607 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: it just might be sticky. 608 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: It's certainly accelerating with the rise of the authoritarian nations, 609 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: and it's seems seemingly rapidly by. 610 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: What I want money that's deplatformable, Like, I think the 611 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 2: only way this revolution fails is if governments stop deplatforming 612 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: people and stop devaluing currents. 613 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: They take away the need, they take away the need 614 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: for it. 615 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no need for bitcoin, It'll die. Why would 616 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 2: you feed it any energy if it was useless. I'm sorry, though, 617 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: I just don't believe in a world where we're going 618 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 2: to see less deplatforming and less devaluation of currency. I 619 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: think we're going to see a lot more to platforming 620 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: and a lot more devaluation because that's what governments do. 621 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,719 Speaker 2: So I see a world where bitcoin gets much more 622 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: valuable and widely used. I just think it's just going 623 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 2: to be. And as for the impact on these institutions, 624 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: I think over time, I mean, they essentially start to 625 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: go bankrupt, like the loans they start to lend out 626 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 2: get defaulted on, and they are not able to refill 627 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: the basket as much, and I think they shrink, and 628 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 2: I think they might still survive, like in more of 629 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 2: an original capacity. Like that, a handful of powerful countries 630 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: may choose to like retain a fund to help put 631 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: out fires so that the trade keeps going. That could 632 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 2: totally happen on a sound money standard. And again you 633 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 2: might have like again like a fund where it's like okay, 634 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: like in the in our common collective self interest, we 635 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: may want to like help this country develop a little bit, 636 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 2: but like those loans are going to be much more 637 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: like prudent and like like examined carefully, as opposed to like, yeah, 638 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 2: you can just keep all this money and like don't 639 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: worry about it. 640 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: And the goal would be to give them the loan 641 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: and help hopefully help them grow so they can grow 642 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: their way out of it. 643 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 2: Like Jeff Booth calls this forced cooperation. I really like that. 644 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: I mean both at the nation state level, like as 645 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 2: you're describing, but also at the labor level, at the 646 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: individual level, like you're just there's more forced cooperation and 647 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: less again unequal exchange. 648 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: So cooperation as opposed to coersion, yeah, or exploitation. 649 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 2: Like again, like the classic example of like it comes 650 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: to the Ghana, it has a lot of gold. I mean, 651 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: I don't think you need to subscribe to any ideology 652 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 2: to object to the fact that ninety five plus percent 653 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: of the gold profits over the last thirty forty years 654 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: have gone to people outside of Ghana. And that's in 655 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: large part due to this Fiat credit system. I mean, 656 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: it's not entirely because of it, but it certainly is 657 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:45,719 Speaker 2: exacerbated by it. 658 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: Right, So if I'm tracking this, the problem is that 659 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: through the financial system that we have set up in 660 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: the IMF, etc. Through these exploitive type loans. It extracts 661 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: the wealth and it forces people to remain in poverty. 662 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: It deflates their wages and. 663 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: Deflates their wages. So it's not the fact that the 664 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: West or whatever is going to these countries and paying low, 665 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: low wages for labor or things like that, because they're 666 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: providing jobs and they're bringing them out of poverty. It's 667 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: the fact that they're forcing them to stay down, not 668 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: allowing them. 669 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: We also, like our corporations get like favorable rules in 670 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: these countries. So for example, like say you're a giant 671 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: American Coca Cola or something like remember you're like a 672 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 2: dollar native firm, so when you move into one of 673 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: these countries, you are much more. You have such an 674 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: advantage over local soft drink makers who are priced in 675 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: the local currency that's being devalued. All of a sudden, 676 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: the imports they need to make everything gets so expensive 677 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 2: and they go out of business. I mean, this is 678 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 2: why people don't like multinational corporations in poor countries because 679 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 2: of the monitor. It has partly to do with the 680 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 2: monetary element of it, like again, these are firms that 681 00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: are dollar native or your own native or yen native 682 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: or whatever. They're not the Peso native or lira a 683 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: native or whatever. So it's like an outgrowth of our 684 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: current system whatever you want to call it. Is like 685 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 2: the dominance of multinational firms in countries that have in 686 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 2: poorer countries. And this is this is absolutely exacerbated by 687 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: the World Bank and the IMF. I mean, there's this 688 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: whole I mean, the whole double loan phenomena is where 689 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: like we we you know, let's say France gives one 690 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars to Ivory Coast. The of Orians immediately 691 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 2: give one hundred million right back because they hire French 692 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: companies to build all the stuff. So France has been 693 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 2: paid back. The French economy is now whole from the loan, 694 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 2: but the Avorians still have to pay back principal plus interest. 695 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 2: So France will make one hundred and fifty million euros 696 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 2: over the duration of this project, just as an example. 697 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 2: They'll make principal plus interest plus I mean, I mean 698 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 2: plus that be paid back. So this is how you 699 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 2: can start to see that like the West is like 700 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 2: earning a lot of value you from from from deploying 701 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 2: credit to poor countries as any I mean, who benefits 702 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: qui bono in a loan? I mean yes, the point like, yes, 703 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 2: if I take out a loan and I do it 704 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 2: carefully and I pay it back, I can benefit, right, 705 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 2: you can. The problem is this isn't to This isn't 706 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: a healthy like one off, Okay, we solved it. This 707 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: is an infinite debt trap where the loan gets paid 708 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: back by another loan and then all of a sudden 709 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 2: it's a ponzi like. It's a ponzi like. The only 710 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 2: way the new loans can get paid back is with 711 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: more loans. And this this was just became like the 712 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: people who run the system became ware this in the seventies. 713 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 2: They realized this there was no way these countries could 714 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 2: pay back as debt. The only way to pay it 715 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 2: back with more debt. 716 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: And so what I'm just trying to differentiate for everybody 717 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 1: listening and maybe even for myself, is it's not the 718 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: problem of extending loans to people that needed and helping 719 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: them come up. It's the it's the finance, it's the 720 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: it's the dollar scene riage that forces you to take 721 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: loans and forces them to do things that are holding 722 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: them back, like you said, only producing goods that we want, 723 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: not goods that would help you, and never allowing them 724 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: to grow out of that. So if I said, hey, Alex, 725 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: you need a loan, we give you some money, and 726 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: then you're able to turn your business around, make a 727 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: bunch of money, pay me back, and now your life 728 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: is much better. Like, that's a good thing. That's a 729 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: free market, that's cooperation. 730 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 2: Sure, I think there'll be a credit in the bitclin standards. 731 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: Well, because of the scene riage, that's the problem. 732 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: Well, right, it's like think about it this way. Like 733 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 2: if you are lending dollars to a country and they 734 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 2: owe you one hundred dollars and then like their currency 735 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 2: gets devalued, they're going to have a hall of a 736 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 2: time paying back that hundred dollars. So when you think 737 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 2: about the way I am structural adjustment, which is the 738 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 2: condition that the loans come with, is that usually it 739 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 2: ends up devaluing the currency and raising price inflation inside 740 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 2: the country for the majority of the people. Yeah, that's 741 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,959 Speaker 2: not just like taking out a loan and paying it back. 742 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 2: There are other structural things happening here that really impovers people, 743 00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: and this should just be more widely discussed. 744 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and are you you said you know, you kind 745 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: of talked about like the dollar taking them for the 746 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: pound Starli And that's a long process, and so we're 747 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:08,760 Speaker 1: in a long process. 748 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 2: Well, we've also never had anything like bitcoin before though, right, 749 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 2: I mean we don't know. I mean it could be 750 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 2: gradually even suddenly. 751 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: And we've never had the We've kind of never had 752 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: this full coret press from authoritarians, both both in devaluation 753 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: the rise of censorship. 754 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 2: I mean, to give an example, look at the bank run. 755 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 2: I mean, social media and electronic money made a bankrun 756 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 2: much faster, right if you looked at SVB. Sure, well, 757 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 2: social media and electronic money might make like the switch 758 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 2: to a new reserve currency way faster. It might take 759 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 2: years or months or days instead of decades. It's I mean, 760 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 2: I'm just throwing it out sure like, like we're definitely 761 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 2: living in a world where these transitions can happen. 762 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: Faster and information travels fast. People find out about these solutions, Like. 763 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 2: When the sterling was being phased out, like there were 764 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 2: people who didn't even learn about it for like years. 765 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 2: That's not going to I mean, if bitcoin starts to Moon, 766 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 2: everybody's gonna find within like a week like on Earth, 767 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 2: like that information will travel and even people who don't 768 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 2: know what bitcoin is are going to be like, what 769 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 2: the hell's going on there? So I just think it's 770 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 2: a it could happen really really fast, which is why 771 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 2: it's so so important. And I guess we'll just conclude 772 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: with this that, like we work to help communities understand bitcoin, 773 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 2: Like what we want to do with the Human Rights 774 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 2: Foundation is just work on ux and education. We want 775 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: to make bitcoin easier to use, safer to use, more 776 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 2: private to use. We also want to make sure that 777 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 2: people understand the value of self custodying bitcoin. It's just 778 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: all about right now. I understand that on chain bitcoin 779 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 2: will get expensive in the future, that's the way it's 780 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 2: going to be. That's how the fee market's going to work. 781 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 2: But right now you can get on board, you can 782 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 2: open the channel, you can get into lightning, you can 783 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 2: self custody bitcoin. We had that couple days there where 784 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 2: fees got out of hand. I mean we can expect 785 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 2: more of that. That's a glimit of the future, but 786 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 2: they're back down to like a dollar, so a couple 787 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: of dollars. So let's do as much as we can now, 788 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 2: and we won't regret it. I mean, the only thing 789 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 2: we'll regret in ten years is not doing more of it. 790 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 2: So let's educate and spread the word as much as 791 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: we can. And really that's what you're seeing as like 792 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 2: a resistance to the IMF and World Bank. As you're 793 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 2: seeing in the countries that got structurally adjusted the hardest 794 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: you saw them, you saw them flock to bitcoin and 795 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 2: different kinds of like basically stable coins and bitcoin like 796 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 2: the highest, Like if you look at the percentage of 797 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 2: people in those countries who use these things, it's like 798 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 2: way higher than in America. It's like Nigeria or talking 799 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 2: like twenty percent of Internet users using bitcoin and cryptocurrency 800 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 2: in some way. Where's in America it's like around ten percent. Yeah, 801 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 2: So it's like it's just it's it's people are seeking 802 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 2: a way out, and it makes total sense, and I 803 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 2: think you can expect to see more of that. 804 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: So higher the pain, the more people are going to 805 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: move to the solution. 806 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 2: I'm just glad that there is a way out. I 807 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 2: don't know, again, I don't think it saves entire countries 808 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: and I don't think we're speculating, but what's not a 809 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 2: matter of speculation is that it can save individuals and 810 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,280 Speaker 2: that's something we're celebrating and we will continue to focus 811 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 2: on that. 812 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: Yeah cool, well, well we can wrap it up with that. 813 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 1: Thank you, Human Rights Foundation. 814 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 2: Yeah h r F or h r h h r 815 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 2: F Yeah, h r F, Yeah h R h r 816 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: F dot org. 817 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, so everyone check that out? Anything else? 818 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 2: Oh? 819 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: Your books? 820 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 2: Got check out the Bookhidden Depression. The book on Amazon. 821 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 2: It's on the Bitcoin mag site if you want to 822 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 2: buy it with bitcoin, So uh, you do what you wish. 823 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would. 824 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 2: Appreciate if you checked it out, left a review on Amazon. 825 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 2: That'd be great. And thank you so much for having 826 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 2: me Mark, all right, thanks, appreciate it.